In the comics, Mark pretty much forgave his dad right away when they reunited here, which felt forced. Meanwhile here, Mark still loves his dad, but he hasn't forgiven him for his actions back on Earth, which is better for their development.
Btw, you'll need to be careful about spoilers once you drop episode 7 on youtube. People really can't seem to hold themselves back from dropping not so subtle hints about what happens in the comic.
20:40 of all the reactors I've seen, you're the first one Kenny to put together the fact that the Thraxans are a literary device meant to provide the audience with frame of reference to understand Nolan's perspective as a viltrumite compared to humans. Well done my man. It really reframes a lot of the stuff he said in season 1, right? Like when he called Debbie a pet, we all obviously took that to mean that he thinks she's just inferior to him, but with this frame of reference, you kinda get the feeling that it was just the closest point of comparison. When we get pets, we love them, care for them, cherish them more than anything, but ultimately we know that they won't be our last pet - they'll grow old and die long before us, and while we will grieve for them, they still only take up a slice of our lifetime. This episode does such a beautiful job contextualizing that Nolan did and does love Debbie and that while he is still a fuckin psycho, he's trying to let his better angels win. He just needs to overcome millenia of Viltrumite culture, education, training, programing or what have you.
Steve Yuen really crushed it when it came to delivering those lines as you can feel the rush of emotions in Marks voice, anger, hatred, confusion, betrayal and sadness.
Eh kinda depends on what you mean by saint. *Minor spoiler: Before Earth Viltrumites praised Nolan as one of the most hardcore Viltrumites of all time.
@@thomashernandez1004Omniman not only abandoned his post on Earth out of love for his son, he also had a kid with a 'lesser species' and fought against his people to protect them. The coalition leader is the only Viltriumite we've seen so far who seems like a better person
@@jakubgodyn7413yeah it was to persuade him also has anyone noticed that those bugs live a year and viltrumites live thousands of years so shouldn’t the kid live a reasonable amount of time?
@@Absolis262 I mean if we assume that humans live around 100 years (it's more like 80 but to make math easier let's say it's 100). If Mark is sad to live "thousands of years" let's say it 5 thousands. Then Oliver, who's mother's lifespan is around 1/100 of Mark's mum, would live around 5 hundred years or something like that
It's very meta how Omni-Man got attached to a species that's even "weaker" than us humans and that they literally look like insects, which is in most cases used as an insult for weak, meaningless lives. So in a way he found purpose in the existence of the weakest lifeform possible which is a total contradiction to Viltrum's agenda.
If he went there directly from viltrum , that wouldn't have been the case, this is post Earth omniman , Earth really changed his mentality, but too much damage has been done Earth for him to go back, so thraxa was the rebound
What’s incredible to me is when he sees the ship headed for the black whole he doesn’t even contemplate whether he should or shouldn’t rescue them. He just does it and was immediately prepared to leave without any sort of praise. Debbie and Mark fundamentally changed him on a psychological level.
Fully agree with everything said here. Ofc he's still an absolutely horrendous person, even if he's improving. And also good to note that he nearly wiped out this planet's people by endangering them with his presence.
I love Mark's reaction to meeting his father, just at the very least wanting to hug him one last time before he can vent about everything his dad did to him.
In the comics, Mark pretty much forgave his dad right away when they reunited here, which felt forced. Meanwhile here, Mark still loves his dad, but he hasn't forgiven him for his actions back on Earth, which is better for their development.
Yes and this is one of many things show has improved, and by improved I don't mean comics are bad but rather the show has improved even more which tells just how GOOD this series really is.
eh I think some of that is just that Mark never wanted to believe what happened, like your typical child of an abuser, and is desperately looking for any shred of possible redemption to forgive them as a coping mechanism. the fact that basically no one else did aside for Debbie (even if it took a little bit longer) was still in line with the abused spouse angle. So it's not exactly bad writing to have it that way, just not as satisfying from an audience perspective.
17:05 he's not pretending it's the most normal thing in the world...to him it is normal. A few months or twenty years what difference does it make when you live thousands of years...he was depressed fell in love with what we biased humans would call an alien and a bug..but literally your reactions to it basically proves he wasn't wrong to address Debbie as a pet. Cos that's the same way you're addressing this whole entire species with advanced space travel as "bugs" and like they're beneath him or like it's so disgusting that he'd marry or love one of them and like the kid is some "bug baby" Well yes marks reactions are understandable from his pov...but look at it from a birds eye view and considering Nolan....yes this is perfectly normal and doesn't need an overreaction
Gotta keep in mind noaln is thousands of years old conquered 100s of worlds probably killed billions if not trillions without a second thought. Him having any feelings or even beginning to care is wild. It also explains why he doest understand how his actions affect other people.
“These people are MEANINGLESS. They are cavemen without us.” “And what were they doing with those fragile little lives?” “Now or in 50 years what difference does it make.” Empathy is a POWERFUL thing. And it holds so much value for every lifetime you could have. Now it’s so funny to see Omni-Man experience a practical 180 from earth and needed a figurative AND literal rebound to come to better terms with it all. AND to the point of standing up to the empire with the life he has found. For a year lifespan Omni-Man probably found it amazing to find them make such advanced culture. To him a BLINK would be a building built. They had ships that could go near black holes WITHOUT viltrumite support. And the life he valued the most, the one on earth seems to be at forefront of this conflict. Invincible is watching this conflict in real time as a man who from his perspective feels no pain cries before him. FANTASTIC episode. Also something something Superman fighting MANY Supermen being awesome.
There's a difference between redemption and forgiveness. Noland's redemption doesn't have to include anyone hurt by him forgiving him, as long as he genuinely becomes a better person, and his actions actually reflect this.
Felt the need to correct a few misconceptions. Omni-man prolly didn't even know the literal bugs were compatible with Viltrumite DNA. The kid was a surprise. Even more surprising, since it developed so fast, he barely had time to think of what to do. It took a month just for Nuolzot to get to Mark, so asking Mark for help was the best he could think of, because, either way, This planet had a target on it the moment he left Earth. That's why he was going to leave immediately, probably to go die somewherem but it ultimately wouldn't matter. Since Viltumites can only go 2 weeks without breathing and they need to find pit-stops with breathable atmospheres, it's INCREDIBLY easy to track down a rogue Viltrumite (and kill everything you find on the way) by simply mapping the nearby viable planets, because the ratio of viable-to-non-viable planets is really just that bad even though a mature Viltrumite can easily fly at Relativistic speeds. So, while he is still being a dick, and should be more apologetic, his logic and circumstances aren't as absurd or intentional as they seem.
My absolute favorite thing about this episode is the parallells between Debbie and Nolan, both being depressed and both aimlessly wandering only to end up in a moment where they're seriously contemplating ending it all. But Nolen needed something to happen to stop him, while Debbie pulled herself away. And then later in the episode Art flat-out says that Debbie is strong in ways Nolan isn't. So, so good.
He was called the great nolan for a good god damn reason and it goes to show how powerful he is as a viltrumite. He is amongst the strongest of them and killed the three viltrumites that in lore were incredibly powerful fighters.
17:50 I think he called Mark because he didn't expect his grasshopper wife to breed a kid when they were banging, and he knew that the kid was in danger because of the viltrumites looking for him so thats why he wanted Mark's help. Cuz Omni man said earlier the reason I brought u here was to introduce u to ur little brother
Nolan is still Viltrumite, and he won't change that quickly. On the other hand, we can't tell for sure, if Nolan knew that he could have kids with this bug race, that's why he asked for help.
Little bit of science here. Technically, anyone can just chill NEAR a black hole. A heavy technically there. The gravity doesn't get overwhelming until you pass a point called the event horizon. Once you hit that, you're gone. So since Nolan can control his position in space, obviously he can fly NEAR a black hole without actually falling INTO it. But yeah, he was outright going to kill himself there. There's ABSOLUTELY no way even a Viltrumite can survive falling into a BLACK HOLE. Let alone get OUT of one afterwards.
One thing I find interesting is how much Nolan’s explanations/“apology” is telling of his programming. It almost comes across as him knowing he isn’t right in the head and not even bothering trying to defend himself within their moral framework. It’s as if he can tell he’s wrong but can’t tell why he’s wrong.
Because of that mindset his approach seems to be to not bother asking forgiveness but attempting to do better. But later in the episode he talks about how he shouldn’t feel that way about a race of bugs so it’s clear he’s operating on that same “opposition to his inner compass” framework that mark is.
i love the maulers in this episode, they explicitly stated when they made rudy's body, that's the way it has to be, if sombody knows they're the clone it never ends well following that up with a demonstration was great
@@DerekRawlings it was the plan for rudy to be the new one that continued. the original is dead now according to his plan in order to give himself a life that wasn't confined to a tube.
@DerekRawlings The issue that plagues the Maulers is that the original naturally assumes their own superiority, so they have to design the process to prevent them from having that knowledge because they'll subjugate the other. Rudy doesn't have that problem because even if this is a problem common to all clones and not just an outgrowth of the Mauler Twins' own personality, his original is dead and he has no intention of making another version of himself. There's no one to have this problem with.
I don't think Nolan ever realized he could have children with the Thraxans. He was so racked with guilt about what he did on Earth he was at first just using the situation to feel anything other than pain he's not accustomed to. We're still talking thousands of years of indoctrination. 20 years to him is likely just a week to a month in his time.
I like how they point out how it’s impressive that Mark just managed to survive. By viltrumite standards, he’s basically a newborn and yet he managed to hold his own against a viltrumite with centuries worth of combat experience
27:38 As much as people want to hate Nolan for what he did, that's okay to a point, but it's not okay to focus on just one bad day when everything fell apart. Debbie is not alone responsible for the person Mark has become, Nolan may not have always been home but he was a hero and he didn't hide that from his son, and Mark grew up wanting to be like his father, that he would get his powers and be a hero, his mother was a part of his development but Nolan had a big role in his life as well, but now it's easy to ignore all that, and that only Debbie is important (this is probably his way in this scene saying things to comfort Debbie while she's in this state). Who would have thought that 20 years of living on earth has such an effect on a conqueror of worlds, who has already lived and conquered for thousands of years without mercy, and people still think that Nolan was faking his feelings the whole time. Nolan did love his wife and son on earth, which is the reason why he didn't kill them, people forget that Nolan is thousands of years old, and that 20 years is not a big deal for him, but after he got married and had a son, he came to love the world because of them, and probably hoped Mark wouldn't take on his genes and powers, so he would probably wait until their lives were up before returning to his mission.
Mark actually has a special real life power because he's part human that Viltrumites don't have. Personally, I think it's clever writing, but I don't think they'll explicitly state it until then end of season 3 or into season 4.
Time perception is an underlying theme hidden in this series. We were introduced to time perception with Red Rush's explanation. The shorter lifespan of the Thraxans also gives them a more rapid perception of time. Living one year seems like a good long life to them. Humans live around 80 to 100 times longer than Thraxans. According to Comic Vine, Viltrumites live around 80 to 100 times longer than humans.
It's genuinely heartwrenching, alot more people can relate to Omniman in one way or another than they'd care to admit. "Why do I care about the?", " I'm not supposed to be this way!". When brought up on pain, suffering, death, nonchalance, stocism. The confusion and pain is so...scary, so uncanny. You don't understand it so you lasgph out in anger, wondering and asking why?
I wouldn't really put stoicism as part of that. I've known plenty of compassionate people who were stoic. Being stoic just means your more reserved when it comes to displaying your emotions, not that it's a good or bad thing.
Nolan asking mark for help and even admitting what he did on earth was wrong, by viltrumite standards he was acting like a crying schoolgirl, nolan is by far my favourite character just for how interesting his internal conflict is and bow he deals with being indoctrinated for hundreds of years. Compared to all other viltrumites nolan is basically a saint
49:20 It actually did affect his fighting skills. In the cave he loss focus when Andressa was in danger. Also during the fight with the two viltrumites, he kept focusing on Mark, which let Vidor get extra hits on him. Nolan could probably take both if he isn't worrying about anyone and his mindset wasn't conflicted. Still would need mark though to avoid the most casualties.
31:10 Garotte wires have been used to chike people to death for centuries and have sometimes been made from human hair because it has a great tensile strength, equivalent to aluminium, and has been a substitute for piano wire, fishing line and guitar string. Viltrumktes being stronger than humans likely means that they have hair that is proportionately as strong.
18:07....the bug mom may have literally still been pregnant when they sent the nuolzat to bring mark...again one week spent traveling through space could be like a whole pregnancy term for the bugs...omni man may have literally sent for Mark the second he found out she was pregnant...and again Why expect a viltrumite to kneel and beg and grovel first when there's literally no time for all that. He admitted he was sorry, asked for help and didn't force him and stated the urgency.. Again looks like perfectly normal behaviour to me
Viltrumite DNA is so pure that it is super dominant. No matter whom they breed with they will produce a humanoid looking child, but whether or not the child gets powers is always up in the air.
Man you guys are right, Nolan's manipulation of Mark is wild. First he tortures Mark with the fact that he cares about innocent people by slaughtering them in front of Mark. This time around he backs mark into a corner by putting these sweet bug people in Viltrum's path. I say this all as a die hard omni man of course lol
It's kind of funny how this series recycles VA after they've voiced someone else in the series. Clancy Brown voiced Damian The demon investigator, the mummy that was revived in ep4 of season 1, amd now he's a Viltriumite, which I find funny since he also use to voice Lex Luther in the 90's superman animated series
While this whole thing is genuinely terrible for the whole family, I feel particularly terrible for Debbie. It was cruel enough that Nolan called her his pet, but it must be a particular blow for him to just take another wife and have a new kid after what he did. And she's still recovering from him doing a massacre after 20 years of seeming like a devoted husband.
Idk, lying to Mark to get him to come here and then kinda trapping him (Since he can't get home by himself and only giving him a ship if they talk) feels pretty manipulative to me. Anytime you try to get a person to do something you want them to do rather than allowing them to do what they want to do you are being manipulative. Especially if you do it in a underhanded manner, like not allowing them to leave or lying.
I'm guessing you don't know many Narcissists? I do, and Omni Man is written phenomenally in this episode. Yes, he is improving. But he's very much manipulating Mark every step of the way this episode. His tactics have changed though. It's pretty obvious if you've dealt with a lot of manipulative people
I mean he kind of is. He mislead Mark to get him to Theaxa, then pretty much guilt trips into helping defend the planet and his brother. It may have been for good reasons, but that's still pretty manipulative.
Its the same with her and Endeavor in MHA. She has some kind of personal trauma that will make her incapable of acknowledging growth for these sort of characters
Obviously, from a human perspective, Nolan has done some nearly(if not entirely) irredeemable things. That being said, this episode really highlights the parallels like Kenny pointed out. It's really a miracle Nolan snapped out of his viltrumite mentality at all, he doesnt get enough credit for that specifically - separate from the things he's done. Also during the fight (and after) every time Nolan was caught off guard or taken advantage of was due to him being worried about Mark. Not saying he shouldn't be, but it's very easy to see why they think the compassion and care during battle is a weakness. He got his back completely shattered trying to care for Mark, after.
12:32 As someone who finnished his first year of college this year. I felt heard with that scene. I have had that conversation so many times, it's awesome
7:42 the way Montana said this in particular strikes fear into my heart more than anything shes ever said. This is the closest thing we have seen to pure anger by her and id hate to see full fledged anger from her LOL
The thing I love about Donald is he's always sacrificing himself to save others. Despite not knowing he'll just be replaced he always ends up dying because he puts others first. W right hand man
14:0515:0915:59 I love the reactions to this episode in particular because it shows a glimpse of hypocrisy for the people who are instantly grossed out about a "bug" like species so they mock Nolan for wif-ing one. Yet the species has emotions and intelligence etc so when then the viltrumites drop down to genocide them while calling them disgusting bugs like the reactors first pov of them it's just funny to watch them then try to feel bad for them after the previous insults.
Personally i think because Nolan is a being that basically lives for thousands of years human life is essentially meaningless and due to viltrimite programming he doesn't understand why what he is doing is wrong and messed up and we as humans put so much stock in emotions but viltrimites don't the are strength trumps all so while he is wrong for what he is doing it is in character for him
15:20 the way she's emphasising the bug brother though...bug or not its a sentient species...to the bugs humans are the wierd mushy ones who live pointlessly long unfulfilled lives. Long story short...give Nolan a break
Heres the thing. Omniman was gonma end himself, then he saved them people because his humanity kicked in. He was gonma go back to end.himself. but they asked him to stay and he got a sense of purpose again. The viltrumites where coming for him either way.
30:08 - Not just programming - his whole life, his whole mentality. Remember that Earth and Thraxa were not the first worlds he encountered. He and his people had been conquering worlds like this for centuries. He had no problem with such methods back then, mainly because he did not perceive the inhabitants of occupied worlds as individuals - they were "Subjects", subjects of the Empire, essentially - functions. It was as if he crossed paths with them without seeing them. But once on Earth, he really began to perceive people as, well, people. Of course, this was not enough - he was still loyal to Viltrum, although there was still a conflict. He killed the Guards to complete the task, but there was an ulterior motive - to get rid of hesitation - "Don't get distracted, you have a mission." Hell had already cracked back then. And after the incident with Mark, it suddenly hit him. Thraxan allowed him to come to his senses, at least for a while - to collect himself together. But now it's even worse, he's not just realizing WHAT he did on Earth, he's started associating Earth (and Thraxan) with the worlds he conquered before and where he was much less sentimental. All the pain he's caused over the hundreds of years on countless planets is starting to come back to him, and it's killing him.
It is in fact a huge ask from Nolan, but to be fair the only person he knows that could possibly save his infant son from being butchered by Viltrumites is Mark. There's no one left that could possibly stand up against Viltrum except for him. Obviously doesn't excuse Nolan risking Mark's life, but I don't think Nolan has ever had to plea for help, except now. To be honest, I'm not sure if he fully knows *how* to plea for help properly
If you love beautiful space anime’s, Gurren Lagan is one of the most classic and iconic anime’s for mechs. For a western cartoon, I really REALLY hope that one day you can watch Voltron. You will adore it, it gives She-Ra/ Korra vibes
If Nolan accepted killing humans was wrong then lets be real he would have a break down. He needed to convince himself that humans are insignificant to not feel guilty.
I feel like people forget that sentient beings are sentient beings and looking funny or different is a poor justification for any action. I think of all the peope watching MHA that would make fun of how weird people with mutation quirks are sldespite it being the equivalent of making fun of someone for having a birth defect.
The thing I found about what happened at the end was that before both believed to be the original. So every time one of them died the survivor still honestly believed he was the original. So when He cloned himself the clone again also believed to be the original and this cycle continued. But now the survivor knows he wasn't the original but in fact the clone so if and when he clones himself. Both will now know they are both clones. Which should change the whole dynamic of this duo's behaviour I would of thought.
1:48 there's probably some people that read the comics that know for sure, I'm not one of them, but I assume he has because one of the Viltrumites that was helping escort him in prison stated "I used to look up to you" and considering how Viltrum is, I'd assume that means he was one of the top conquerers
What's interesting about the Maulers is that now both will think they are the clone, since the surviving one KNOWS he was a clone to begin with. The only question will be who is the older clone vs the fresher one.
I dont think he was being a dick just for telling him he doesn't have any navigational skills. 👀😳Geez can't help it if its true. Im also bad at directions 😅
Although Viltrumites are superficcially kryptonites, they are so likely saiyans. The history of nolan is so inspired in Vegeta's (Mark is super similar to Gohan though) but the last part of the episode is an obvious reference to first episode of DBZ "kell 100 humans in 3 days so u can prove u loyalty to saiyan race or i'll kell ur son"
the part where mark back hands the women he uses the exact same moves as nolan when he cut immortal's head off. only difference was mark used a fist instead of a flat hand that his dad used
I mean Nolan being married is pretty worthless seeing he can't go back to earth and there is no way for him to get a proper divorce. What epectation was there for him hold true to his old marriage when he left like that?
It’s really interesting seeing Mark be capable of tremendous strength even amongst, but be held back my mental blocks. It reminds me a lot of Deku’s struggle with measuring up to All Might. Not exactly 1 to 1 comparison but they both struggle with the intimidation factor of seemingly unmatched strength and the consequences of really tapping into it. Really interested to see how things play out in season 3.
Yeah, he was considering doing himself in. That's just the state of weariness and confusion he was in. Remember: Viltrumites aren't human, and human emotion and human relations are completely foreign to them. The only way Viltrumites know how to deal with what they consider threats of any kind, to them or their way of life, is to start fighting until the threat is gone. But what do you do when all the fighting in the world doesn't seem to solve the problem for you?
mark true superpower is literally jist adrenaline, since normal viltrumites dont have it, this was seen in season one, where mark strenght skyrocketet in a near death/anger situation.
Every viltrumite has adrenaline, they all have moments of hitting Their hardest when enraged even when they are severely injured Like how lucan broke nolans back despite his guts hanging out.
How long has it been for Nolan ? He was near black hole for a while. Time dilates, it could have been decades. If you were to stand in the event horizon of Sagittarius A , roughly 700 years would pass in a minute
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In the comics, Mark pretty much forgave his dad right away when they reunited here, which felt forced. Meanwhile here, Mark still loves his dad, but he hasn't forgiven him for his actions back on Earth, which is better for their development.
Kenny and montana react to haikyuu next it's the best sports anime ever you will love it
Btw, you'll need to be careful about spoilers once you drop episode 7 on youtube. People really can't seem to hold themselves back from dropping not so subtle hints about what happens in the comic.
20:40 of all the reactors I've seen, you're the first one Kenny to put together the fact that the Thraxans are a literary device meant to provide the audience with frame of reference to understand Nolan's perspective as a viltrumite compared to humans. Well done my man.
It really reframes a lot of the stuff he said in season 1, right? Like when he called Debbie a pet, we all obviously took that to mean that he thinks she's just inferior to him, but with this frame of reference, you kinda get the feeling that it was just the closest point of comparison. When we get pets, we love them, care for them, cherish them more than anything, but ultimately we know that they won't be our last pet - they'll grow old and die long before us, and while we will grieve for them, they still only take up a slice of our lifetime. This episode does such a beautiful job contextualizing that Nolan did and does love Debbie and that while he is still a fuckin psycho, he's trying to let his better angels win. He just needs to overcome millenia of Viltrumite culture, education, training, programing or what have you.
Yeah I’ve seen so many reactions to invincible, this video is the first time I ever saw someone point that out
Yep, good analysis breakdown btw! I hope more people read this comment because so many people miss the points in this show between seasons.
Steve Yuen really crushed it when it came to delivering those lines as you can feel the rush of emotions in Marks voice, anger, hatred, confusion, betrayal and sadness.
It's funny that Omniman is practically a saint by Viltrium standards
Like Venom by symbiots’ standards (if I remember lore correctly. Maybe he is not)
Eh kinda depends on what you mean by saint.
*Minor spoiler: Before Earth Viltrumites praised Nolan as one of the most hardcore Viltrumites of all time.
@@nandoman4769 And then had what is tantamount to a saintly divine revelation for a Viltrumite: Genocide is bad
Is he? The other Viltrumites seem much less sadistic than him.
An actual example of this would be the leader of the coalition.
@@thomashernandez1004Omniman not only abandoned his post on Earth out of love for his son, he also had a kid with a 'lesser species' and fought against his people to protect them. The coalition leader is the only Viltriumite we've seen so far who seems like a better person
if you look how easy Nolan killed the viltrumites you'll realize how much omni man was holding back against mark
Because his goal wasn't to kill Mark
@@jakubgodyn7413yeah it was to persuade him also has anyone noticed that those bugs live a year and viltrumites live thousands of years so shouldn’t the kid live a reasonable amount of time?
@@Absolis262 I mean if we assume that humans live around 100 years (it's more like 80 but to make math easier let's say it's 100). If Mark is sad to live "thousands of years" let's say it 5 thousands. Then Oliver, who's mother's lifespan is around 1/100 of Mark's mum, would live around 5 hundred years or something like that
@@jakubgodyn7413except someone said that viltrum DNA takes over as they get older, so they both eventually become ~100% viltrumite
Believe it or not, at least 2 of them survived.
It's very meta how Omni-Man got attached to a species that's even "weaker" than us humans and that they literally look like insects, which is in most cases used as an insult for weak, meaningless lives. So in a way he found purpose in the existence of the weakest lifeform possible which is a total contradiction to Viltrum's agenda.
If he went there directly from viltrum , that wouldn't have been the case, this is post Earth omniman , Earth really changed his mentality, but too much damage has been done Earth for him to go back, so thraxa was the rebound
Thraxans exist so that we, humans, can understand what humans are to the viltrumites.
What’s incredible to me is when he sees the ship headed for the black whole he doesn’t even contemplate whether he should or shouldn’t rescue them. He just does it and was immediately prepared to leave without any sort of praise. Debbie and Mark fundamentally changed him on a psychological level.
Fully agree with everything said here.
Ofc he's still an absolutely horrendous person, even if he's improving. And also good to note that he nearly wiped out this planet's people by endangering them with his presence.
@@azeTrom17 It's not that. He also left Earth at the mercy of the Viltrumites when he left his post. And Mark almost died because of it.
I love Mark's reaction to meeting his father, just at the very least wanting to hug him one last time before he can vent about everything his dad did to him.
It's definitely better in the show than in the comics
@@MDelasEdits How'd it go in the comics?
@@Gopal__S basically Mark just forgives his father VERY easily
@@MDelasEditsI wouldn’t say forgive, he just doesn’t really bring anything up (as far as I remember).
In the comics, Mark pretty much forgave his dad right away when they reunited here, which felt forced. Meanwhile here, Mark still loves his dad, but he hasn't forgiven him for his actions back on Earth, which is better for their development.
This is why I love the show, I can't wait to see how they flesh out later storylines
Yes and this is one of many things show has improved, and by improved I don't mean comics are bad but rather the show has improved even more which tells just how GOOD this series really is.
eh I think some of that is just that Mark never wanted to believe what happened, like your typical child of an abuser, and is desperately looking for any shred of possible redemption to forgive them as a coping mechanism. the fact that basically no one else did aside for Debbie (even if it took a little bit longer) was still in line with the abused spouse angle.
So it's not exactly bad writing to have it that way, just not as satisfying from an audience perspective.
I hope Debbie never forgives him in the show. You cannot forgive 10000 murder come on.
@@noxturn8620Inflict him on Allen forever (though he's the one that suffered the most in that arrangement)
17:05 he's not pretending it's the most normal thing in the world...to him it is normal.
A few months or twenty years what difference does it make when you live thousands of years...he was depressed fell in love with what we biased humans would call an alien and a bug..but literally your reactions to it basically proves he wasn't wrong to address Debbie as a pet. Cos that's the same way you're addressing this whole entire species with advanced space travel as "bugs" and like they're beneath him or like it's so disgusting that he'd marry or love one of them and like the kid is some "bug baby"
Well yes marks reactions are understandable from his pov...but look at it from a birds eye view and considering Nolan....yes this is perfectly normal and doesn't need an overreaction
Gotta keep in mind noaln is thousands of years old conquered 100s of worlds probably killed billions if not trillions without a second thought. Him having any feelings or even beginning to care is wild. It also explains why he doest understand how his actions affect other people.
“These people are MEANINGLESS. They are cavemen without us.” “And what were they doing with those fragile little lives?” “Now or in 50 years what difference does it make.”
Empathy is a POWERFUL thing. And it holds so much value for every lifetime you could have. Now it’s so funny to see Omni-Man experience a practical 180 from earth and needed a figurative AND literal rebound to come to better terms with it all. AND to the point of standing up to the empire with the life he has found. For a year lifespan Omni-Man probably found it amazing to find them make such advanced culture. To him a BLINK would be a building built. They had ships that could go near black holes WITHOUT viltrumite support.
And the life he valued the most, the one on earth seems to be at forefront of this conflict. Invincible is watching this conflict in real time as a man who from his perspective feels no pain cries before him. FANTASTIC episode. Also something something Superman fighting MANY Supermen being awesome.
Nolan in this episode reminds me of the quote "What is better to be born good or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" from Skyrim
There's a difference between redemption and forgiveness. Noland's redemption doesn't have to include anyone hurt by him forgiving him, as long as he genuinely becomes a better person, and his actions actually reflect this.
Can we talk about how caked Omni-Man is flying in space. They didn't need to give him a weapon of mass destruction in the back.
Omni-Dumpy
Felt the need to correct a few misconceptions. Omni-man prolly didn't even know the literal bugs were compatible with Viltrumite DNA.
The kid was a surprise. Even more surprising, since it developed so fast, he barely had time to think of what to do.
It took a month just for Nuolzot to get to Mark, so asking Mark for help was the best he could think of, because, either way, This planet had a target on it the moment he left Earth. That's why he was going to leave immediately, probably to go die somewherem but it ultimately wouldn't matter.
Since Viltumites can only go 2 weeks without breathing and they need to find pit-stops with breathable atmospheres, it's INCREDIBLY easy to track down a rogue Viltrumite (and kill everything you find on the way) by simply mapping the nearby viable planets, because the ratio of viable-to-non-viable planets is really just that bad even though a mature Viltrumite can easily fly at Relativistic speeds.
So, while he is still being a dick, and should be more apologetic, his logic and circumstances aren't as absurd or intentional as they seem.
My absolute favorite thing about this episode is the parallells between Debbie and Nolan, both being depressed and both aimlessly wandering only to end up in a moment where they're seriously contemplating ending it all. But Nolen needed something to happen to stop him, while Debbie pulled herself away. And then later in the episode Art flat-out says that Debbie is strong in ways Nolan isn't. So, so good.
He was called the great nolan for a good god damn reason and it goes to show how powerful he is as a viltrumite. He is amongst the strongest of them and killed the three viltrumites that in lore were incredibly powerful fighters.
17:50 I think he called Mark because he didn't expect his grasshopper wife to breed a kid when they were banging, and he knew that the kid was in danger because of the viltrumites looking for him so thats why he wanted Mark's help. Cuz Omni man said earlier the reason I brought u here was to introduce u to ur little brother
Nolan is still Viltrumite, and he won't change that quickly. On the other hand, we can't tell for sure, if Nolan knew that he could have kids with this bug race, that's why he asked for help.
They keep calling Nolan "great" because he is strong even in viltrumite standarts
Little bit of science here.
Technically, anyone can just chill NEAR a black hole. A heavy technically there.
The gravity doesn't get overwhelming until you pass a point called the event horizon. Once you hit that, you're gone. So since Nolan can control his position in space, obviously he can fly NEAR a black hole without actually falling INTO it.
But yeah, he was outright going to kill himself there. There's ABSOLUTELY no way even a Viltrumite can survive falling into a BLACK HOLE. Let alone get OUT of one afterwards.
One thing I find interesting is how much Nolan’s explanations/“apology” is telling of his programming. It almost comes across as him knowing he isn’t right in the head and not even bothering trying to defend himself within their moral framework. It’s as if he can tell he’s wrong but can’t tell why he’s wrong.
Because of that mindset his approach seems to be to not bother asking forgiveness but attempting to do better. But later in the episode he talks about how he shouldn’t feel that way about a race of bugs so it’s clear he’s operating on that same “opposition to his inner compass” framework that mark is.
i love the maulers in this episode, they explicitly stated when they made rudy's body, that's the way it has to be, if sombody knows they're the clone it never ends well
following that up with a demonstration was great
Yeah, I wonder how that's going to go for Rudy (who knows he's the clone)...
@@DerekRawlings it was the plan for rudy to be the new one that continued. the original is dead now according to his plan in order to give himself a life that wasn't confined to a tube.
@DerekRawlings The issue that plagues the Maulers is that the original naturally assumes their own superiority, so they have to design the process to prevent them from having that knowledge because they'll subjugate the other. Rudy doesn't have that problem because even if this is a problem common to all clones and not just an outgrowth of the Mauler Twins' own personality, his original is dead and he has no intention of making another version of himself. There's no one to have this problem with.
I don't think Nolan ever realized he could have children with the Thraxans. He was so racked with guilt about what he did on Earth he was at first just using the situation to feel anything other than pain he's not accustomed to. We're still talking thousands of years of indoctrination. 20 years to him is likely just a week to a month in his time.
I like how they point out how it’s impressive that Mark just managed to survive. By viltrumite standards, he’s basically a newborn and yet he managed to hold his own against a viltrumite with centuries worth of combat experience
27:38 As much as people want to hate Nolan for what he did, that's okay to a point, but it's not okay to focus on just one bad day when everything fell apart.
Debbie is not alone responsible for the person Mark has become, Nolan may not have always been home but he was a hero and he didn't hide that from his son, and Mark grew up wanting to be like his father, that he would get his powers and be a hero, his mother was a part of his development but Nolan had a big role in his life as well, but now it's easy to ignore all that, and that only Debbie is important (this is probably his way in this scene saying things to comfort Debbie while she's in this state).
Who would have thought that 20 years of living on earth has such an effect on a conqueror of worlds, who has already lived and conquered for thousands of years without mercy, and people still think that Nolan was faking his feelings the whole time.
Nolan did love his wife and son on earth, which is the reason why he didn't kill them, people forget that Nolan is thousands of years old, and that 20 years is not a big deal for him, but after he got married and had a son, he came to love the world because of them, and probably hoped Mark wouldn't take on his genes and powers, so he would probably wait until their lives were up before returning to his mission.
Mark actually has a special real life power because he's part human that Viltrumites don't have. Personally, I think it's clever writing, but I don't think they'll explicitly state it until then end of season 3 or into season 4.
Time perception is an underlying theme hidden in this series. We were introduced to time perception with Red Rush's explanation. The shorter lifespan of the Thraxans also gives them a more rapid perception of time. Living one year seems like a good long life to them. Humans live around 80 to 100 times longer than Thraxans. According to Comic Vine, Viltrumites live around 80 to 100 times longer than humans.
I think Debbie and Art's friendship is one of my favorites in the entire show. It's so kind, and so genuine to one another
It's genuinely heartwrenching, alot more people can relate to Omniman in one way or another than they'd care to admit.
"Why do I care about the?", " I'm not supposed to be this way!". When brought up on pain, suffering, death, nonchalance, stocism. The confusion and pain is so...scary, so uncanny. You don't understand it so you lasgph out in anger, wondering and asking why?
I wouldn't really put stoicism as part of that. I've known plenty of compassionate people who were stoic. Being stoic just means your more reserved when it comes to displaying your emotions, not that it's a good or bad thing.
The world where Mr Krabs is one of the most powerful beings in the universe..
and where Lex Luthor finally have the powers of Superman, well, close enough to the point that the difference is negligible.
20:40 FUCKING THANK YOU KENNY. Finally someone that gets it.
Nolan asking mark for help and even admitting what he did on earth was wrong, by viltrumite standards he was acting like a crying schoolgirl, nolan is by far my favourite character just for how interesting his internal conflict is and bow he deals with being indoctrinated for hundreds of years. Compared to all other viltrumites nolan is basically a saint
49:20 It actually did affect his fighting skills. In the cave he loss focus when Andressa was in danger. Also during the fight with the two viltrumites, he kept focusing on Mark, which let Vidor get extra hits on him. Nolan could probably take both if he isn't worrying about anyone and his mindset wasn't conflicted. Still would need mark though to avoid the most casualties.
31:10 Garotte wires have been used to chike people to death for centuries and have sometimes been made from human hair because it has a great tensile strength, equivalent to aluminium, and has been a substitute for piano wire, fishing line and guitar string. Viltrumktes being stronger than humans likely means that they have hair that is proportionately as strong.
18:07....the bug mom may have literally still been pregnant when they sent the nuolzat to bring mark...again one week spent traveling through space could be like a whole pregnancy term for the bugs...omni man may have literally sent for Mark the second he found out she was pregnant...and again
Why expect a viltrumite to kneel and beg and grovel first when there's literally no time for all that. He admitted he was sorry, asked for help and didn't force him and stated the urgency..
Again looks like perfectly normal behaviour to me
Nolan: Think Mark!
Mark: I'm thinking
Nolan: Don't think, act!
Like bruh lol
That’s the point of the line lol
Man people loved throwing around the word bug like a slur during these episodes.
Well, if there was a minuscule chance that the original Mauler was still alive, that chance is now gone...
Viltrumite DNA is so pure that it is super dominant. No matter whom they breed with they will produce a humanoid looking child, but whether or not the child gets powers is always up in the air.
Man you guys are right, Nolan's manipulation of Mark is wild. First he tortures Mark with the fact that he cares about innocent people by slaughtering them in front of Mark. This time around he backs mark into a corner by putting these sweet bug people in Viltrum's path. I say this all as a die hard omni man of course lol
It's kind of funny how this series recycles VA after they've voiced someone else in the series. Clancy Brown voiced Damian The demon investigator, the mummy that was revived in ep4 of season 1, amd now he's a Viltriumite, which I find funny since he also use to voice Lex Luther in the 90's superman animated series
Why waste good talent?
Nolan fr knew the risks. The Bugussy was just that strong
The mirror between Debbie and Omniman this episode was so good
One of my favorite little details that often get missed. 40:44 Gen Kreig hurts his hand hitting Invincible. Delicious, subtle, foreshadowing.
He didn't hurt his hand, he was simply getting marks blood off.
While this whole thing is genuinely terrible for the whole family, I feel particularly terrible for Debbie. It was cruel enough that Nolan called her his pet, but it must be a particular blow for him to just take another wife and have a new kid after what he did. And she's still recovering from him doing a massacre after 20 years of seeming like a devoted husband.
Believe it or not, Nolan isn't manipulating Mark at all.
yeah bias goes brrr
Idk, lying to Mark to get him to come here and then kinda trapping him (Since he can't get home by himself and only giving him a ship if they talk) feels pretty manipulative to me.
Anytime you try to get a person to do something you want them to do rather than allowing them to do what they want to do you are being manipulative. Especially if you do it in a underhanded manner, like not allowing them to leave or lying.
I'm guessing you don't know many Narcissists?
I do, and Omni Man is written phenomenally in this episode. Yes, he is improving. But he's very much manipulating Mark every step of the way this episode. His tactics have changed though.
It's pretty obvious if you've dealt with a lot of manipulative people
I mean he kind of is. He mislead Mark to get him to Theaxa, then pretty much guilt trips into helping defend the planet and his brother. It may have been for good reasons, but that's still pretty manipulative.
Its the same with her and Endeavor in MHA. She has some kind of personal trauma that will make her incapable of acknowledging growth for these sort of characters
General Krieg:"unlike your father we don't change our mind"
Me:"Are you sure about that"
Gotta love Kenny getting that George Costanza elbow twitch trying to figure out where to pause things during the bug wife/son reveal.
Obviously, from a human perspective, Nolan has done some nearly(if not entirely) irredeemable things.
That being said, this episode really highlights the parallels like Kenny pointed out.
It's really a miracle Nolan snapped out of his viltrumite mentality at all, he doesnt get enough credit for that specifically - separate from the things he's done.
Also during the fight (and after) every time Nolan was caught off guard or taken advantage of was due to him being worried about Mark. Not saying he shouldn't be, but it's very easy to see why they think the compassion and care during battle is a weakness. He got his back completely shattered trying to care for Mark, after.
god i can’t wait for everyone to see omniman’s redemption arc
It’s gonna be good 👍🏿 😊
I remember how Montana was no able to see blood even if it was animated. Now she just saw 33:55 and did no even tried to look away. 😅
12:32
As someone who finnished his first year of college this year. I felt heard with that scene. I have had that conversation so many times, it's awesome
7:42 the way Montana said this in particular strikes fear into my heart more than anything shes ever said. This is the closest thing we have seen to pure anger by her and id hate to see full fledged anger from her LOL
Whew quite alot of venom being spewed by Montana this episode towards Nolan. Like Jeez ive never seen her be so harsh.😂
Right? It was on another level. Who you think she hates more Endeavor or Omniman ?😄
The thing I love about Donald is he's always sacrificing himself to save others. Despite not knowing he'll just be replaced he always ends up dying because he puts others first. W right hand man
14:05 15:09 15:59 I love the reactions to this episode in particular because it shows a glimpse of hypocrisy for the people who are instantly grossed out about a "bug" like species so they mock Nolan for wif-ing one. Yet the species has emotions and intelligence etc so when then the viltrumites drop down to genocide them while calling them disgusting bugs like the reactors first pov of them it's just funny to watch them then try to feel bad for them after the previous insults.
Damn
Debbie got Bee Movie'd 💀
Personally i think because Nolan is a being that basically lives for thousands of years human life is essentially meaningless and due to viltrimite programming he doesn't understand why what he is doing is wrong and messed up and we as humans put so much stock in emotions but viltrimites don't the are strength trumps all so while he is wrong for what he is doing it is in character for him
Hope they watch Vox Machina after watching Invincible.
Very juicy and in depth discussion this episode, enjoyed hearing your thoughts.
15:20 the way she's emphasising the bug brother though...bug or not its a sentient species...to the bugs humans are the wierd mushy ones who live pointlessly long unfulfilled lives.
Long story short...give Nolan a break
“You gotta be-
*I N V I N C I B L E*
-fucking kidding me!”
I love how everyone reacted the same and caught off guard to that, XD
Heres the thing. Omniman was gonma end himself, then he saved them people because his humanity kicked in. He was gonma go back to end.himself. but they asked him to stay and he got a sense of purpose again. The viltrumites where coming for him either way.
30:08 - Not just programming - his whole life, his whole mentality.
Remember that Earth and Thraxa were not the first worlds he encountered.
He and his people had been conquering worlds like this for centuries.
He had no problem with such methods back then, mainly because he did not perceive the inhabitants of occupied worlds as individuals - they were "Subjects", subjects of the Empire, essentially - functions.
It was as if he crossed paths with them without seeing them.
But once on Earth, he really began to perceive people as, well, people.
Of course, this was not enough - he was still loyal to Viltrum, although there was still a conflict.
He killed the Guards to complete the task, but there was an ulterior motive - to get rid of hesitation - "Don't get distracted, you have a mission."
Hell had already cracked back then.
And after the incident with Mark, it suddenly hit him.
Thraxan allowed him to come to his senses, at least for a while - to collect himself together.
But now it's even worse, he's not just realizing WHAT he did on Earth, he's started associating Earth (and Thraxan) with the worlds he conquered before and where he was much less sentimental.
All the pain he's caused over the hundreds of years on countless planets is starting to come back to him, and it's killing him.
It is in fact a huge ask from Nolan, but to be fair the only person he knows that could possibly save his infant son from being butchered by Viltrumites is Mark.
There's no one left that could possibly stand up against Viltrum except for him.
Obviously doesn't excuse Nolan risking Mark's life, but I don't think Nolan has ever had to plea for help, except now. To be honest, I'm not sure if he fully knows *how* to plea for help properly
If you love beautiful space anime’s, Gurren Lagan is one of the most classic and iconic anime’s for mechs. For a western cartoon, I really REALLY hope that one day you can watch Voltron. You will adore it, it gives She-Ra/ Korra vibes
If Nolan accepted killing humans was wrong then lets be real he would have a break down. He needed to convince himself that humans are insignificant to not feel guilty.
The song is Avalanche by Leonard cohen, but the version in the show is the excellent cover by Nick Cave. A really pretty, haunting song
The fact that they sent this many viltrumites to fight against Nolan tells you how strong Nolan is.
I feel like people forget that sentient beings are sentient beings and looking funny or different is a poor justification for any action. I think of all the peope watching MHA that would make fun of how weird people with mutation quirks are sldespite it being the equivalent of making fun of someone for having a birth defect.
The thing I found about what happened at the end was that before both believed to be the original. So every time one of them died the survivor still honestly believed he was the original. So when He cloned himself the clone again also believed to be the original and this cycle continued. But now the survivor knows he wasn't the original but in fact the clone so if and when he clones himself. Both will now know they are both clones. Which should change the whole dynamic of this duo's behaviour I would of thought.
It’s kinda sad that Viltrumites essentially had empathy beaten out of them. Because of that, they can’t form meaningful bonds even with each other.
1:48 there's probably some people that read the comics that know for sure, I'm not one of them, but I assume he has because one of the Viltrumites that was helping escort him in prison stated "I used to look up to you" and considering how Viltrum is, I'd assume that means he was one of the top conquerers
What's interesting about the Maulers is that now both will think they are the clone, since the surviving one KNOWS he was a clone to begin with. The only question will be who is the older clone vs the fresher one.
I dont think he was being a dick just for telling him he doesn't have any navigational skills. 👀😳Geez can't help it if its true. Im also bad at directions 😅
Although Viltrumites are superficcially kryptonites, they are so likely saiyans. The history of nolan is so inspired in Vegeta's (Mark is super similar to Gohan though) but the last part of the episode is an obvious reference to first episode of DBZ "kell 100 humans in 3 days so u can prove u loyalty to saiyan race or i'll kell ur son"
the part where mark back hands the women he uses the exact same moves as nolan when he cut immortal's head off. only difference was mark used a fist instead of a flat hand that his dad used
this entire episode was pretty funny but sad at the same time especially when Nolan revealed that Mark has a baby brother
Now, I hope you took the appropriate 4-5 month break before finishing the season to really get the Invincible Season 2 experience!
Oh how i've waited for this ep to drop.
Nolan really saw the big queen and went, "What dat Thorax do?"
Omni-Man like Rheiner of Marley
Another episode where I'm almost in tears wanting to hug Debbie. jesus.
GodDAMN if Nolan wasn’t watching mark to make sure he was alright he would’ve easily killed those viltrumites
I mean Nolan being married is pretty worthless seeing he can't go back to earth and there is no way for him to get a proper divorce. What epectation was there for him hold true to his old marriage when he left like that?
"we do not change our mind" well, let's see about that, dude.
"Head over heels" is such an odd phrase. That seems like a normal state of affairs. Now, "Heels over head" seems like being deeply in love.
It’s really interesting seeing Mark be capable of tremendous strength even amongst, but be held back my mental blocks. It reminds me a lot of Deku’s struggle with measuring up to All Might. Not exactly 1 to 1 comparison but they both struggle with the intimidation factor of seemingly unmatched strength and the consequences of really tapping into it. Really interested to see how things play out in season 3.
Yeah, he was considering doing himself in. That's just the state of weariness and confusion he was in. Remember: Viltrumites aren't human, and human emotion and human relations are completely foreign to them.
The only way Viltrumites know how to deal with what they consider threats of any kind, to them or their way of life, is to start fighting until the threat is gone. But what do you do when all the fighting in the world doesn't seem to solve the problem for you?
You guys are getting close to the conclusion of the season. Last episode is gonna shock you guys...
You know it just occurred to me. When Omni-Man left Earth, he really left his Mark...
Bro had to plug the Merch before being carried off 😂
Kregg is probably the most reasonable viltrumite
34:22 His innards are his outards!
Fantastic perspective of the lifespan time perception. You're smart, see.
That’s crazy Debe domesticated alien that thought she was a pet
mark true superpower is literally jist adrenaline, since normal viltrumites dont have it, this was seen in season one, where mark strenght skyrocketet in a near death/anger situation.
Every viltrumite has adrenaline, they all have moments of hitting Their hardest when enraged even when they are severely injured
Like how lucan broke nolans back despite his guts hanging out.
How long has it been for Nolan ? He was near black hole for a while. Time dilates, it could have been decades. If you were to stand in the event horizon of Sagittarius A , roughly 700 years would pass in a minute
What's crazy issss.... in the comics, Debbie turned on Mark😂