The character of Ser Ilyn disappeared from the show was because his actor Wilko Johnson (former guitarist with seminal English proto punk band Dr. Feelgood) was diagnosed with terminal cancer. He actually made an unexpected recovery for a few years and went back on tour before passing away recently.
That's sad. I love the dualism where he's kinda evil and his nephew is very good can't remember but it was Sir Long Dick who squired for Tyrion then Bryenne
@@jeambeam3173 Podrick isn’t his nephew. They share the same last name but they are very distant relatives to the point where they probably aren’t even related anymore at all by blood.
Damn, Aerys and Vargo were truly monstrous men, considering how they cutted Jaime's hand and Ilyn Payne's tongue in a world where neither mouths or arms exist!
@Kristof Molnar How is he described initially? Something about a powdered _EGG_ Must be a pretty full-proof disguise if it has keep him anonymous for like twenty years. On maybe people don't question it because he's from Lys?
@Kristof Molnar Nah, there is one time Varys is (probably) telling the complete, unvarnished truth: when he’s telling Tyrion the story of his castration. Ironically, that’s also the one time someone doesn’t believe Varys
"Why a noble man from a great house is illiterate, I don't know"... well, may be he just isn't, but just pretended to be, so Tywin could better use him as an informant. Just a thought. That would parallel the illiterate mute Wrex giving major information to the Manderleys.
Lots of nobles in Westeros are illiterate. There's a bit of a streak of, "I have guys for that." In the middle ages literacy wasn't necessarily wide-spread among the nobility either.
@@MrSilvUr And it also gives powers to the meisters, as they are the ones reading and writing the lords letters. Which is a big part of the idea that they are having a big conspiracy.
I mean...Androw Farman was also a noble from a great house who was illiterate. Maybe ser Ilyn wasn't bright enough to learn how to read just like Androw? It's certainly a possibility.
I do love the thought of that. The powerful lord who illustrated his follower(s) to do something horrible gets caught up by the consequences, meanwhile the man who actually did it himself is ignored and forgotten by history. And he spends the rest of his life roaming the lands, everything he does unpunished because no one knows him, no one cares or remembers, no one but him a dark spot in history
@@nont18411 Or they're complete murderous and raping psychopaths whose deeds go unpunished like some of the mountain's men who are mentioned once or twice. (ex. Eggon and Tobbot)
If we're talking about butchers of POV characters, this is Areo Hotah erasure. Stan the Camera that Rides. (More serious note, I love that you started with Varys' riddle, such a great hook for the video. Great work as always man!)
@@alexpokrandt4378 yeah this... I mean, even in Hot D big boy baratheon (bless his HART) can't read, which his mæster does for him... Hot D is honestly some of the best evidence for Barbrey Dustin's paranoia being spot on...
@@PinkyJusticeright? I tend to take Marwyn and Lady Dustin at their word, but take it a step further... Who has always been a friend to the Citadel? Who built the greatest Sept? What house did Maegor's first wife come from again? Let's not worry about the tools that are used, let's talk about the Medici mfers that are pulling all the strings all the way back to the conquest!
I'd say the first two, particularly Ser Ilyn, reduced themselves to cogs in the machine. Petyr says there are pieces and players, and that some pieces fancy themselves as players and others just refuse to make the moves you plan out for them. It might be like the Gardener/Architect dichotomy G.R.R.M often talks about, in that on the spectrum both Zollo and Ilyn are pieces, but Ilyn is almost if not entirely a piece, where Zollo has more autonomy outside of a group. Ser Raymund, however, might have acted more as a player as you described. I'm not sure if Cat was meant to be taken captive or not, but if so, Raymund voids that of his on volition. Whether or Mercy or Revenge, we do not know. Players in ASOIAF are like Clock-makers, trying to coordinate the motions of all the little pieces towards an objective. But once the gears are in motion they are life unto themselves, stick your fingers in where the cogs meet the result is predictable. Create too much distance and you won't be able to correct an issue when it arises. But "No man can be in all rooms, at all times." so whichever you choose, it will eventually affect you in a manner you don't control.
Ser Illyn doesn't seem like a bad guy. He even laughs several times at Jaime's jokes so it's not like his old personality was eradicated with his tongue.
I really like the idea you came up with for this video, the focus on minor characters is cool and different than a lot of what I see on TH-cam. I've only seen one other good one about Ilyn Payne.
Interesting idea about Raymund Frey being a self insert to mercy kill Cat. I’m sure he becomes quite fond of most of his characters, so killing so many so quick had to be tough to write. Could see how having a self insert bring an end to the chapter would help with getting through it. It was an incredibly impactful moment even tho I genuinely don’t like Cat. I do think she should’ve stayed dead tho, one of the few things the show did better was keeping Beric around over her as I feel he has more potential as a character and is far more interesting. Just a seemingly normal knight, yet he just keeps getting resurrected. He clearly has a purpose, it being to exchange his life for Cat feels pretty underwhelming imo.
This is actually a very, very interesting subject to discuss that I haven’t seen any others entertain. What’s the morality of Ser Ilyn? What’s going on in his head, is he happy, or is he in his own personal Hell? What of the others? It’s actually interesting. How do they feel about what they’ve done, and surely they have more in common with most people, being “little people” rather than great men as we all pretend we would be in that world.
Ser Ilyn seems happy enough with his life, I think? I think Jaime is right on the money when he says the only thing Ilyn cares about is killing people, which he gets to do on the regular, and he is seen doing his closest approximation to laughter often enough.
What a great idea for a video. Maybe in another series these characters might be mere background plot devices but, like you point out, we're encouraged in the text to concentrate on the agency of "the man who swings the sword" just as much as the person who gives the order. Ilyn certainly has a role to play, but I'll be keeping an eye out now for what happens to Raymund and Zollo. I suspect Raymund will meet an unpleasant offscreen death in the inevitable Frey Civil War, but Zollo is the kind of person who really might disappear. Let's hope if Jaime doesn't get him, the Brotherhood do.
Zollo is too much of a sadist to not commit some crimes which, given his very recognisable appearance, will probably get him hunted down by someone, either the brotherhood or soldiers attempting to stabilise the riverlands when the fighting is over.
I think Zollo may have died in a Storm of Swords. One of Arya's POV chapters starts with the Brotherhood Without Banners raiding a sept taken by remnants of the Bloody Mummers. Beric Dondarrion dueled a Dothraki who fought with an Arakh, and since his hair was heavily oiled, Dondarrion's flaming sword soon set his head on fire.
Seeing the word “Little men” makes me think about the contradictory mindset of Tyrion Lannister. See, so Tyrion has a huge victim mentality (as he should, considering how many abuses he had to endure from his vile family) that he’s a little guy both literally and figuratively and is always an underdog whose great deeds are not appreciated and once he reached his lowest point after he killed Tywin, it’s because the society rejected him for being a dwarf and how the society sides with Tywin and tried to get him to avenge their so-called great leader. However, his POV is quite flawed if you think about it - Yes, he was abused a lot by his dad, his sister and his nephew but he still lived in a life of privilege and had it was better than common folks and the entirety of House Stark. - He used his privilege as a Lannister to abuse the power as well when he had Symon the Silver Tongue (a character played by Ed Sheeran in the show) cooked into a stew by Bronn because he’s afraid that Symon will blackmail him about his affair with Shae. - His so-called “great deed” was the battle of Blackwater, a battle against Stannis to prevent the rescue of Sansa Stark and turned the tide of the war into Lannister’s favors. He might not be the one fully responsible for it but can’t deny that his contribution in Blackwater set up the chain of events that ended up putting the little guys into further misery, like the Red Wedding and the rise of Bolton’s brutal regime who killed and tortured civilians for fun. So “a good thing” in Tyrion’s eyes are only good for the Lannisters while horrible to everyone else. - Tyrion only thinks that everyone sides with Tywin because he didn’t see the big picture, just like every other POV. Everyone waited for Tywin to die to exact revenge for the atrocities Tywin did while he was alive. The only one who sides with Tywin is Cersei. - While Tyrion love to think that he’s a victim and a little guy, he somehow treats Penny poorly, even though she’s a dwarf and a marginalized person like him. I know some people (like Preston Jacobs) said that Penny is an agent sent by Littlefinger to spy on Tyrion and it’s okay for Tyrion to be wary of her but the point is, Tyrion wasn’t just wary of her, he was MEAN to her…just like how his abusive dad treated him. And the whole Penny being Littlefinger’s agent works the same way as Tyrion being a Targaryen: It’s fun to think about but it makes the story worse. Tyrion being a true Lannister works the best for the story because it shows how flawed Tywin really is and how his bigotry and ego led to his downfall. Tyrion Targaryen is just a fan theory that was made to justify Tywin’s actions because Charles Dance made him so likable in the show that the fans are willing to find a reason to rationalize his behavior no matter what (just like how the fans idolize Walter White and Logan Roy). Penny as Littlefinger’s agent is also a fan theory that happened because we spent too much time in Tyrion’s head that we became paranoid and delusional just like him that we see everyone as enemies. And now Tyrion has become a thing he hate: Someone who’s willing to berate and hurt the little guys thanks to his bitterness and thirst for revenge (Oh, I just realized that during his trip in Essos, Tyrion also beat up and raped some prostitutes as well. So yeah, treating little guys with kindness are off the table for him. Not to mention how he will join Daenerys to lay waste on Kings Landing civilians) Long story short: I think Tyrion falls into the same problem as Tywin. Peter Dinklage is such a fantastic actor that he portrayed Tyrion into a heroic person instead of a flawed antihero so D&D chose to omit his vileness in the books (and his rage about the truth about Tysha) from the show to prevent him from becoming a bad guy and kept him a heroic protagonist until the end as a fan service…which ultimately ruined his character because those flaws are the most interesting part of Tyrion and his arc isn’t about a hero’s journey. It’s about a descent to villainy and moral redemption. Jimmy McGill/ Saul Goodman is what Tyrion should have been in the show.
@@fantasyhaven1 We are also robbed of Dark Jon Snow as well. Jon being revived should have made him become more cynical and brutal (just like Catelyn, which is funny because Catelyn really hates Jon so it would be interesting if she knew that a boy she hates ended up becoming the same as her, getting betrayed and murdered by their own men then got revived and become bitter, angry and pessimistic human beings. This could also play an important role to Catelyn’s arc as well. She could become more sympathetic towards Jon and might rethink about whether she should keep pursuing revenge or salvage what’s left of her family because from her POV, Jon is the the only Stark who is still alive.) Brutal, vengeful and murderous Jon could become a parallel to the rise of Ramsay Bolton. In case Stannis lose or retreat from the battle of ice, Jon facing Ramsay could be like a hero facing his mirror-image villain with Ramsay representing the worst that Jon could have been, about what would Jon become if he’s too focused on vengeance and violence while overlooking the big picture and things that made him who he is in the first place: an altruistic guy fighting for what’s right to save people. Without Dark Jon, we were robbed of the entirety of Jon’s character development and self-reflection, making his hero’s journey incomplete.
What if it’s a big murder conga line? Zhollo kills Raymond because the Frey was at the wrong place at the wrong time in the riverlands, and Ilyn kills Zhollo on Jaime’s orders if they encounter each other again Edit: then the dragon that burned Quentyn eats Payne
3:37 it's quite common for lords and noblemen to not now how to read, I can't remember who says it, but one character says something like most lords don't even read their letters, they let the maesters read the letters to them instead.
I really enjoyed this! Thank you for sharing it- I hope you continue to make many many more, a Nd I look forward to comparing thoughts on some theories we all may have!
I've always thought there was more to Sir Illyn than meets the eye. I think he has a secret way to communicate (but that's purely speculative on my part). That is why I think he outshines the other two...they are at least open about their wickedness.
I think Sir Illyn has some serious mental health issues. His house being incredibly filthy tells me he is very lonely and depressed. It may be more than that, which could be tied to his illiteracy.
@@fantasyhaven1 Yeah, tbh hes one of the most grey characters in ASOIF, he really just does his job. Of course Arya feels differently but other than that he never does anything that would constitute him as a villian. Hes just a tool.
Vargo doesn't get mentioned enough same as the guy who took Jaime's hand. If he managed to keep roose on Rob's side through his actions everyone would consider him a hero Also shows how both sides had betryalas and how similar they are
It's going to be interesting to see who takes out future pov characters. Arianne isnt going to live long if we know how doran treats his kids to dangerous missions. Cersie i doubt willlwst long after her sudden power grab or when aegon appears to clash with the faith
In my estimation Arianne will most likely die with fAegon in King's landing after she's married to him, not sure at what point and by who's cause but I see their death similar to show version Cersei and Jaime.
Fantasy Haven: “We pay less attention to the so-called little men, as we tend to do in our real world history.” Gavrilo Princip and Stanislav Petrov: “Allow us to introduce ourselves.”
Arya has a wolf dream in ASOS where Nymeria and her pack kill a small group of riders that seem to be going after Arya & friends after their escape from Harrenhal. One of them is Dothraki, and I always assumed that was Zollo and a couple other mummers. And Nymeria rips someone’s arm off during that fight, perhaps some gruesome justice for the people who regularly cut off other people’s limbs
In general, quite a few even among the major lords can't read or write because they usually have maesters for the job and therefore have no need to do so themselves.
This isn't a pov killer but kinda interesting there's a character named allar deen he's the guy that kills robers bastard baby and he's mentioned several times in the book but we never actually met him though i feel like he's going to be somewhat important just cause he has a very striking name and is currently on his way to the wall
I feel like Ilyn Payne will somehow end up in the Vale, be the only person to recognize Sansa, and won’t be able to tell anyone. Maybe he won’t even try to, because as far as he’s concerned, it doesn’t matter if she’s alive or dead. Just stare at her and do his weird throaty laugh.
Good video! Also, in addition to Ser Raymund Frey being a self-insert, consider this possibility as well: GRRM’s first middle name Raymond+ is his *father’s* name. And from what I’ve read and heard, George and his dad were not exactly kindred souls. So maybe it’s a bit of both! 🤷♀️😊 Anyway, you have an enjoyable channel and very silly, cute animations. Cheers! 🥂 =========== + The second “R” in his initials stands for Richard, which he took as his Catholic Confirmation name at age 13. (Or so sayeth Wikipedia. 😊👍)
The whole stage that Ned had his head taken off on. All those who stood their even Eddard and his daughter were in some why responsible for that situation. All on the stage had something to do with it, even if the execution wasnt everyones goal
On Zollo, there is a group of videos on Brienne from PrestonJacobs that discusses Brienne's history and themes, which is pretty solid, to be honest. If we admit as true the logic behind Brienne and her theme, there explored. I think Zollo will be the final boss in the Brienne and Jaime story arc.
@@fantasyhaven1 Yes, it's an excellent analysis that made me reconsider the value of Brienne's story. A whole deconstruction of the archetype of gender and sex.
dont know if you know he left the show when got cancer that couldn't be cured so he went to do things he wanted to before his time. That's why he disappears
@@fantasyhaven1eh yeah for a brief period but he died last year after it came back, cancer is a bitch unfortunately. At least he had more time than he originally thought I guess
The whole King, Priest, and rich lord riddle never really made sense to me. In the riddle, the person in question is a sellsword. He'd do what the rich guy told him. If it was a soldier, it'd be what the king said, if it's a holy warrior, he'd follow what the priest said.
The character of Ser Ilyn disappeared from the show was because his actor Wilko Johnson (former guitarist with seminal English proto punk band Dr. Feelgood) was diagnosed with terminal cancer. He actually made an unexpected recovery for a few years and went back on tour before passing away recently.
That's sad. I love the dualism where he's kinda evil and his nephew is very good can't remember but it was Sir Long Dick who squired for Tyrion then Bryenne
@@jeambeam3173Sir Podrick Payne is his name and also is spelt brienne.
I love him but if they can replace beric tommen the mountain 3 fucking times and much more than they couldve found another bald dude
th-cam.com/video/Yp2DvPKh118/w-d-xo.html
@@jeambeam3173
Podrick isn’t his nephew. They share the same last name but they are very distant relatives to the point where they probably aren’t even related anymore at all by blood.
Damn, Aerys and Vargo were truly monstrous men, considering how they cutted Jaime's hand and Ilyn Payne's tongue in a world where neither mouths or arms exist!
I lie awake at night wondering how to draw Jaime's golden hand
@fantasyhaven1 don't draw Jamie at all just make him a giant golden hand floating along.
The answer.@@MichaelJohnson-fr8yr
love the detail that you made Varys' eyes purple to hint at him possibly being fAegons uncle
I think that's also just a characteristic of Lysene people.
@Kristof Molnar How is he described initially? Something about a powdered _EGG_
Must be a pretty full-proof disguise if it has keep him anonymous for like twenty years. On maybe people don't question it because he's from Lys?
👀
@Kristof Molnar
Nah, there is one time Varys is (probably) telling the complete, unvarnished truth: when he’s telling Tyrion the story of his castration.
Ironically, that’s also the one time someone doesn’t believe Varys
But Lys is a city filled with brothels, a playground for valyrians, Varys is probably just a bastard who happens to have a bit of valyrian blood
"Why a noble man from a great house is illiterate, I don't know"... well, may be he just isn't, but just pretended to be, so Tywin could better use him as an informant. Just a thought.
That would parallel the illiterate mute Wrex giving major information to the Manderleys.
Lots of people have brought this up, maybe Jaime's confessions will come back to bite him 👀
Lots of nobles in Westeros are illiterate. There's a bit of a streak of, "I have guys for that." In the middle ages literacy wasn't necessarily wide-spread among the nobility either.
@@MrSilvUr And it also gives powers to the meisters, as they are the ones reading and writing the lords letters. Which is a big part of the idea that they are having a big conspiracy.
I mean...Androw Farman was also a noble from a great house who was illiterate. Maybe ser Ilyn wasn't bright enough to learn how to read just like Androw? It's certainly a possibility.
Ilyn Payne probably knows more dark secrets than anyone in Westeros who’s not been a master of whispers…but he can never tell a single one.
No wonder he's so depressed
@@fantasyhaven1 He can still write letters though
@@nont18411 He's illiterate. He could do charades though.
@@Fly-the-Light He's a horse. He could do telepathy though.
assuming he is illiterate which doesn't make any sense with him being a Tywin man
I do love the thought of that. The powerful lord who illustrated his follower(s) to do something horrible gets caught up by the consequences, meanwhile the man who actually did it himself is ignored and forgotten by history. And he spends the rest of his life roaming the lands, everything he does unpunished because no one knows him, no one cares or remembers, no one but him
a dark spot in history
Thinking about it, it kinda similar to Sandor Clegane’s story as well. Maybe these people are tired of killing and want to live in peace.
@@nont18411 Or they're complete murderous and raping psychopaths whose deeds go unpunished like some of the mountain's men who are mentioned once or twice. (ex. Eggon and Tobbot)
But illustrating is a crime!
If knowledge is power, to be unknown is to be invincible
If we're talking about butchers of POV characters, this is Areo Hotah erasure. Stan the Camera that Rides.
(More serious note, I love that you started with Varys' riddle, such a great hook for the video. Great work as always man!)
I always thought the Dothraki that Nymeria kills during one of Arya's wolf dreams was Zolo 6:27
I love preston Jacobs video where he has a mini celebration about how Ser Ilyn escaped Arya’s vengeance. “She never got you, bro!”
Maybe Payne cant read because his father didnt forced him to learn how to read like what Tywin did to Jaime in the tv show
Yeah, there are plenty of illiterate nobles in the books.
Ironically, you should probably read them haha or reread them, in the best case.
@@alexpokrandt4378 yeah this... I mean, even in Hot D big boy baratheon (bless his HART) can't read, which his mæster does for him...
Hot D is honestly some of the best evidence for Barbrey Dustin's paranoia being spot on...
@@PinkyJustice I like to think that Boros Baratheon learned to read but simply refuse to
@@raph3699 haha now I too like to think that.
He would
@@PinkyJusticeright? I tend to take Marwyn and Lady Dustin at their word, but take it a step further... Who has always been a friend to the Citadel? Who built the greatest Sept? What house did Maegor's first wife come from again? Let's not worry about the tools that are used, let's talk about the Medici mfers that are pulling all the strings all the way back to the conquest!
I'd say the first two, particularly Ser Ilyn, reduced themselves to cogs in the machine. Petyr says there are pieces and players, and that some pieces fancy themselves as players and others just refuse to make the moves you plan out for them. It might be like the Gardener/Architect dichotomy G.R.R.M often talks about, in that on the spectrum both Zollo and Ilyn are pieces, but Ilyn is almost if not entirely a piece, where Zollo has more autonomy outside of a group.
Ser Raymund, however, might have acted more as a player as you described. I'm not sure if Cat was meant to be taken captive or not, but if so, Raymund voids that of his on volition. Whether or Mercy or Revenge, we do not know.
Players in ASOIAF are like Clock-makers, trying to coordinate the motions of all the little pieces towards an objective. But once the gears are in motion they are life unto themselves, stick your fingers in where the cogs meet the result is predictable. Create too much distance and you won't be able to correct an issue when it arises. But "No man can be in all rooms, at all times." so whichever you choose, it will eventually affect you in a manner you don't control.
I would eeally like Ser Ilyn Payne as the pov of the next prologe, maybe killed by the brotherhood or mayhaps Nymeria
That would be awesome
I think he knows a bit too much for George liking to be a pov
Ser Illyn doesn't seem like a bad guy. He even laughs several times at Jaime's jokes so it's not like his old personality was eradicated with his tongue.
I really like the idea you came up with for this video, the focus on minor characters is cool and different than a lot of what I see on TH-cam. I've only seen one other good one about Ilyn Payne.
Cheers
5:01 Or was it Doran Martell!! (Based and Preston Jacobspilled)
It wouldn't surprise me if the brave companions that are headed to Old Town, will link up with Euron and join his tongueless crew.
Interesting idea about Raymund Frey being a self insert to mercy kill Cat. I’m sure he becomes quite fond of most of his characters, so killing so many so quick had to be tough to write. Could see how having a self insert bring an end to the chapter would help with getting through it.
It was an incredibly impactful moment even tho I genuinely don’t like Cat. I do think she should’ve stayed dead tho, one of the few things the show did better was keeping Beric around over her as I feel he has more potential as a character and is far more interesting. Just a seemingly normal knight, yet he just keeps getting resurrected. He clearly has a purpose, it being to exchange his life for Cat feels pretty underwhelming imo.
I've got mixed opinions on LSH too
This is actually a very, very interesting subject to discuss that I haven’t seen any others entertain. What’s the morality of Ser Ilyn? What’s going on in his head, is he happy, or is he in his own personal Hell? What of the others? It’s actually interesting. How do they feel about what they’ve done, and surely they have more in common with most people, being “little people” rather than great men as we all pretend we would be in that world.
Ser Ilyn seems happy enough with his life, I think? I think Jaime is right on the money when he says the only thing Ilyn cares about is killing people, which he gets to do on the regular, and he is seen doing his closest approximation to laughter often enough.
Amazing video!
Exactly what I'd expect and the little characters are looking extra good with detail.
Thanks man
What a great idea for a video. Maybe in another series these characters might be mere background plot devices but, like you point out, we're encouraged in the text to concentrate on the agency of "the man who swings the sword" just as much as the person who gives the order. Ilyn certainly has a role to play, but I'll be keeping an eye out now for what happens to Raymund and Zollo. I suspect Raymund will meet an unpleasant offscreen death in the inevitable Frey Civil War, but Zollo is the kind of person who really might disappear. Let's hope if Jaime doesn't get him, the Brotherhood do.
Zollo is too much of a sadist to not commit some crimes which, given his very recognisable appearance, will probably get him hunted down by someone, either the brotherhood or soldiers attempting to stabilise the riverlands when the fighting is over.
I think Zollo may have died in a Storm of Swords. One of Arya's POV chapters starts with the Brotherhood Without Banners raiding a sept taken by remnants of the Bloody Mummers. Beric Dondarrion dueled a Dothraki who fought with an Arakh, and since his hair was heavily oiled, Dondarrion's flaming sword soon set his head on fire.
She also had a dream about Nymeria's wolf pack killing some Dothraki, most likely former members of the Brave Companions.
@@aleksanderkorecki7887 the dothraki that Nymeria killed wasn't Zollo, jt was another named dothraki whose name I don't remember now.
Seeing the word “Little men” makes me think about the contradictory mindset of Tyrion Lannister.
See, so Tyrion has a huge victim mentality (as he should, considering how many abuses he had to endure from his vile family) that he’s a little guy both literally and figuratively and is always an underdog whose great deeds are not appreciated and once he reached his lowest point after he killed Tywin, it’s because the society rejected him for being a dwarf and how the society sides with Tywin and tried to get him to avenge their so-called great leader.
However, his POV is quite flawed if you think about it
- Yes, he was abused a lot by his dad, his sister and his nephew but he still lived in a life of privilege and had it was better than common folks and the entirety of House Stark.
- He used his privilege as a Lannister to abuse the power as well when he had Symon the Silver Tongue (a character played by Ed Sheeran in the show) cooked into a stew by Bronn because he’s afraid that Symon will blackmail him about his affair with Shae.
- His so-called “great deed” was the battle of Blackwater, a battle against Stannis to prevent the rescue of Sansa Stark and turned the tide of the war into Lannister’s favors. He might not be the one fully responsible for it but can’t deny that his contribution in Blackwater set up the chain of events that ended up putting the little guys into further misery, like the Red Wedding and the rise of Bolton’s brutal regime who killed and tortured civilians for fun. So “a good thing” in Tyrion’s eyes are only good for the Lannisters while horrible to everyone else.
- Tyrion only thinks that everyone sides with Tywin because he didn’t see the big picture, just like every other POV. Everyone waited for Tywin to die to exact revenge for the atrocities Tywin did while he was alive. The only one who sides with Tywin is Cersei.
- While Tyrion love to think that he’s a victim and a little guy, he somehow treats Penny poorly, even though she’s a dwarf and a marginalized person like him. I know some people (like Preston Jacobs) said that Penny is an agent sent by Littlefinger to spy on Tyrion and it’s okay for Tyrion to be wary of her but the point is, Tyrion wasn’t just wary of her, he was MEAN to her…just like how his abusive dad treated him. And the whole Penny being Littlefinger’s agent works the same way as Tyrion being a Targaryen: It’s fun to think about but it makes the story worse. Tyrion being a true Lannister works the best for the story because it shows how flawed Tywin really is and how his bigotry and ego led to his downfall. Tyrion Targaryen is just a fan theory that was made to justify Tywin’s actions because Charles Dance made him so likable in the show that the fans are willing to find a reason to rationalize his behavior no matter what (just like how the fans idolize Walter White and Logan Roy). Penny as Littlefinger’s agent is also a fan theory that happened because we spent too much time in Tyrion’s head that we became paranoid and delusional just like him that we see everyone as enemies. And now Tyrion has become a thing he hate: Someone who’s willing to berate and hurt the little guys thanks to his bitterness and thirst for revenge (Oh, I just realized that during his trip in Essos, Tyrion also beat up and raped some prostitutes as well. So yeah, treating little guys with kindness are off the table for him. Not to mention how he will join Daenerys to lay waste on Kings Landing civilians)
Long story short: I think Tyrion falls into the same problem as Tywin. Peter Dinklage is such a fantastic actor that he portrayed Tyrion into a heroic person instead of a flawed antihero so D&D chose to omit his vileness in the books (and his rage about the truth about Tysha) from the show to prevent him from becoming a bad guy and kept him a heroic protagonist until the end as a fan service…which ultimately ruined his character because those flaws are the most interesting part of Tyrion and his arc isn’t about a hero’s journey. It’s about a descent to villainy and moral redemption.
Jimmy McGill/ Saul Goodman is what Tyrion should have been in the show.
Completely agree with this. We were robbed of anti-hero / sympathetic villain Tyrion
@@fantasyhaven1 We are also robbed of Dark Jon Snow as well. Jon being revived should have made him become more cynical and brutal (just like Catelyn, which is funny because Catelyn really hates Jon so it would be interesting if she knew that a boy she hates ended up becoming the same as her, getting betrayed and murdered by their own men then got revived and become bitter, angry and pessimistic human beings. This could also play an important role to Catelyn’s arc as well. She could become more sympathetic towards Jon and might rethink about whether she should keep pursuing revenge or salvage what’s left of her family because from her POV, Jon is the the only Stark who is still alive.)
Brutal, vengeful and murderous Jon could become a parallel to the rise of Ramsay Bolton. In case Stannis lose or retreat from the battle of ice, Jon facing Ramsay could be like a hero facing his mirror-image villain with Ramsay representing the worst that Jon could have been, about what would Jon become if he’s too focused on vengeance and violence while overlooking the big picture and things that made him who he is in the first place: an altruistic guy fighting for what’s right to save people.
Without Dark Jon, we were robbed of the entirety of Jon’s character development and self-reflection, making his hero’s journey incomplete.
Hard agree. I think Jon in the books *has* to face off against Ramsay
What if it’s a big murder conga line? Zhollo kills Raymond because the Frey was at the wrong place at the wrong time in the riverlands, and Ilyn kills Zhollo on Jaime’s orders if they encounter each other again
Edit: then the dragon that burned Quentyn eats Payne
That would be a pretty cool little easter egg if it was left as something for the reader to spot
3:37 it's quite common for lords and noblemen to not now how to read, I can't remember who says it, but one character says something like most lords don't even read their letters, they let the maesters read the letters to them instead.
I really enjoyed this! Thank you for sharing it- I hope you continue to make many many more, a
Nd I look forward to comparing thoughts on some theories we all may have!
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it
They’re both equally responsible the leader for giving the order and the underling for obeying
Commenting for the algorithm, may the Seven bless you and your channel.
🙏
Appreciate your content!
And I appreciate you
I've always thought there was more to Sir Illyn than meets the eye. I think he has a secret way to communicate (but that's purely speculative on my part). That is why I think he outshines the other two...they are at least open about their wickedness.
I think Sir Illyn has some serious mental health issues. His house being incredibly filthy tells me he is very lonely and depressed. It may be more than that, which could be tied to his illiteracy.
He's probably the least worst of the three
@@fantasyhaven1 Yeah, tbh hes one of the most grey characters in ASOIF, he really just does his job. Of course Arya feels differently but other than that he never does anything that would constitute him as a villian. Hes just a tool.
Fantastic video. Keep up the great work. 😎👍 Peace ✌🏻
Thanks 👍
Vargo doesn't get mentioned enough same as the guy who took Jaime's hand. If he managed to keep roose on Rob's side through his actions everyone would consider him a hero
Also shows how both sides had betryalas and how similar they are
It's going to be interesting to see who takes out future pov characters. Arianne isnt going to live long if we know how doran treats his kids to dangerous missions.
Cersie i doubt willlwst long after her sudden power grab or when aegon appears to clash with the faith
I might have to expand this video when Winds comes out
@@fantasyhaven1 yeah probably. Same as the pov characters who got taken out in the prologue and epilogue as most would link to the white walkers
In my estimation Arianne will most likely die with fAegon in King's landing after she's married to him, not sure at what point and by who's cause but I see their death similar to show version Cersei and Jaime.
Great video man keep up the good work I loved it
Thanks!
the meta read on Raymund is craazy, I love it
Fantasy Haven: “We pay less attention to the so-called little men, as we tend to do in our real world history.”
Gavrilo Princip and Stanislav Petrov: “Allow us to introduce ourselves.”
Lmao
Amazing video !
I love Asoif and u seem like a real connaisseur New sub 🎉
Thanks!
Let us not forget that the true many-faced god of Death is GRRM
Good video definitely look forward to sir paynes fate
The illustration of GRRM! 😂 And that zoom! 🤣
Shoutout to Ser Mandon Moore for mutilating Tyrion's face
My boy Ser Mandon is underrated
Hell yeah I love this content
Thanks
Jaime thinks that Ilyn is iliterate , we have no evidence thats the truth , maybe Jaime is just stupid for asuming so
I’m first babbby your videos are great man!
Thanks!
hi from 🇵🇷 PR thankyou guy for the videos 🫶🏻they literally make my days🦭Valar morghulis⚔️Honor killed lord stark
Honour is a horse
Thank you!
The answer to the riddle is that the sellsword kills the rich, takes his money and leaves. I would think so anyway.
incredible video bro
Thank you
The real pov slayers are the friends we've made along the way.
Arya has a wolf dream in ASOS where Nymeria and her pack kill a small group of riders that seem to be going after Arya & friends after their escape from Harrenhal. One of them is Dothraki, and I always assumed that was Zollo and a couple other mummers. And Nymeria rips someone’s arm off during that fight, perhaps some gruesome justice for the people who regularly cut off other people’s limbs
Apparently the Dothraki she kills is a guy called Iggo
@@fantasyhaven1 oh interesting! That SOB Zollo is still out there then 🤨
I'm sure he'll get what's coming to him
"Maid in harennhall" that had me lmao.
Cool vid
In general, quite a few even among the major lords can't read or write because they usually have maesters for the job and therefore have no need to do so themselves.
I think it's a bit silly for *any* noble to be illiterate, unless they're disabled in some way
This isn't a pov killer but kinda interesting there's a character named allar deen he's the guy that kills robers bastard baby and he's mentioned several times in the book but we never actually met him though i feel like he's going to be somewhat important just cause he has a very striking name and is currently on his way to the wall
great video
What about Areo Hotah killing Arys Oakheart?
Areo as often forgotten
Areo doesn't count for this video because he's a POV character himself
Wasn’t Zollo killed by Arya (as Nymeria) when she escaped from Harrenhal?
Great title
Vargo the goat, The true hero of riverlands 🎉
I feel like Ilyn Payne will somehow end up in the Vale, be the only person to recognize Sansa, and won’t be able to tell anyone. Maybe he won’t even try to, because as far as he’s concerned, it doesn’t matter if she’s alive or dead. Just stare at her and do his weird throaty laugh.
Jaime will be forced to give Ilyn to the BWB
Good video! Also, in addition to Ser Raymund Frey being a self-insert, consider this possibility as well: GRRM’s first middle name Raymond+ is his *father’s* name. And from what I’ve read and heard, George and his dad were not exactly kindred souls. So maybe it’s a bit of both! 🤷♀️😊
Anyway, you have an enjoyable channel and very silly, cute animations. Cheers! 🥂
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+ The second “R” in his initials stands for Richard, which he took as his Catholic Confirmation name at age 13. (Or so sayeth Wikipedia. 😊👍)
The whole stage that Ned had his head taken off on.
All those who stood their even Eddard and his daughter were in some why responsible for that situation.
All on the stage had something to do with it, even if the execution wasnt everyones goal
If we get the Winds of Winter
Answer to the riddle is;
If smart only the sell sword stays alive
THIS IS BETTER. THE FAMILY GUY CUTS BOTHERED ME BUT THIS IS VERY GOOD..
Family Guy cuts? Lmao what
Ilyn Payne is the type of guy who'd befriend arya even without saying a word ,(had he not been on her list)🙂
Zollo is named after a demon
Shoutout to Locke tho
Our boy Locke
On Zollo, there is a group of videos on Brienne from PrestonJacobs that discusses Brienne's history and themes, which is pretty solid, to be honest. If we admit as true the logic behind Brienne and her theme, there explored. I think Zollo will be the final boss in the Brienne and Jaime story arc.
Interesting, I'll have to check that out
@@fantasyhaven1 Yes, it's an excellent analysis that made me reconsider the value of Brienne's story. A whole deconstruction of the archetype of gender and sex.
Watched it today. Really enjoyed it 👍
@@fantasyhaven1 In my opinion, one of his best analyzes on the themes of the story.
Me: The King
Varys: why
Me: The priest offers god, the rich amn gold, the king can give both with lands, women titles and more
Do we *know* that Ser Ilyn is illiterate, or is it assumed by Jaime?
I thought Arya kill the dothraki when she warg into Nymeria
Nah, she killed a Dothraki called Iggo
@@fantasyhaven1
Oh, thanks
I think Payne CAN read and write..
dont know if you know he left the show when got cancer that couldn't be cured so he went to do things he wanted to before his time. That's why he disappears
Yeah, although he actually recovered from his cancer luckily
@@fantasyhaven1 that’s good to hear
@@fantasyhaven1eh yeah for a brief period but he died last year after it came back, cancer is a bitch unfortunately. At least he had more time than he originally thought I guess
Wow! That's a staggering misunderstanding of "power resides where men believe it resides"
I believe Zolo is killed by Nymeria
👍
I love you
I love you too
Hi my name is ilyn Payne and I never lernd to read
Algorithm
The whole King, Priest, and rich lord riddle never really made sense to me. In the riddle, the person in question is a sellsword. He'd do what the rich guy told him. If it was a soldier, it'd be what the king said, if it's a holy warrior, he'd follow what the priest said.