Spraying the water on the exhaust and watching how far down it boiled is genius, most people would just grab an non contact thermometer, but that wasn't available back in the day. It really speaks to just how clever these guys are
I was taught to do that by my grandfather in the 70s when I started up a fresh engine and it had a miss . I was dumbfounded at first but when he explained it it made perfect sense and point to the cylinder that had a bad plug wire. He told me they did it back in the 20s to determine which cylinder was lame. Never forgot that trick and it was a treat to see that being used here.
The method is different, but the results are the same - one running colder, or if lean, running hotter (so the water boils off faster) is the one to investigate - did the same with a junkyard 3.3 in to my Voyager, to find a bad injector with the thermometer, exhaust was cool, plug coated in soot, injector was stuck open. Replace and runs like new.
Awesome stuff, I'm an engineer based in Queensland, Australia and that would have to be one of the sweetest engines I have ever seen come out of a small workshop like this. Pete and Kevin, I definitely raise a glass to you guys, thanks for sharing this Greg, great video and audio.
You should see how they made it. They chopped off a cylinder of 4 cylinder head then welded the two separate 3 cylinder heads to make one 6 cylinder head for one bank. Pretty homemade.
They old as dirt, they bones crack, they got mini me's going BUT them ole beavers can still build one helluva dam-n powerful in-jine, I no, old dad joke but I'm an old dad sooo🧐
@@flaplaya Not many people know that....I6 is balanced primary and secondary....V12 is balanced perfect, and works well to have a 7 main - 6 throw - engine at 60° angle.
These guys know what it’s all about. Old school. Air of confidence.just cool no nonsense dudes with lot of experience. Gives you a great feeling just watching these guys.👍🏽
Thank you for being the fly on the wall, straight sound & shop audio 👌🏾 interesting to see these guys interact and think through things, pointing things and and communicating.. living legends
Thank you for watching! I’m not pro with the camera however this stuff is so cool and needs to be documented for people like yourself who have an appreciation for this stuff. I just posted A new video on my channel featuring a DOHC Chevy small block Pete Aardema made as well.
I love it when one or two people get together and design and build something like that from scratch using their own ideas. Great video. Much respect for those two gentlemen.
Think of this from a different point of view. These old guys probably grew up playing with junk yard cars like I did. I'm a little older than they are, and spent much of my teen years with my Chicago buddies building junk yard cars for the drag strip. What that means is that we bought everything including the car at one of our many auto junk yards. Why...because we had more skills than money. I ended up moving on and became an engineer after serving in Vietnam. My point is this. These fellows have taken their skills to a whole different level. Just like fine carpenters and other craftsmen and ladies. My worry is that with few exceptions, there are no more junk yard car opportunities for young folks. And I mean that as an analogy to so many other hands on crafts. Just like there are very few apprentice offers to pass on the old skills that built our nation. Having said all that, these guys rock. That's for sure.
With an o² sensor per cylinder,they could really see what's happening,ang make log files at least. A good tune could enrichen on the fly,if you indicate a AFR target,they could squeeze a bunch of HP too. A map sensor on the front and on the rear of the engine in the intake volume,could help them for the aero,and air feed pressure datas knowledge on the engine.
@@FyreSturmOfficial I think you are sarcastic,but i'm not sure. When you have so many cylinders and use the engine in difficult conditions,you need to know what's going on. O² sensors can allow you to avoid melted pistons,intake plenum can distribute air unevenly ,specially at high vehicle speed. It's good practice on high end stuff like here.
Pete and Kevin are always improving and they have several engine builds all different going on in the shop. The V12 only ran one season and Pete and Kevin are building the 2 liter , as well as the Moser and considering now a possible 3rd V12 build. Thanks for watching! Greg
just recently started learning about engines a fews weeks back and i can't help but appreciate old gearheads. they were way ahead of their time when it comes to this kind of stuff before internet even existed.
6:45 don't put a relief in the back of the scoop, you will loose power at speed. Put a separator, or splitter inside the scoop to give an even amount of air to the front and back six throttles. Or two scoops, one for the front six and one for the back six throttles.
Yup! Need to even out the pressure, so all the cylinders can make the same power. Either baffles and separators inside, or a variable restrictor that keeps the pressure constant in the whole of the plenum, and can vary according to vehicle speed and throttle loads, like the cone in front of the SR-71's jet engines.
My goodness gracious Pete, you are so active at eighty years of age. May God bless you with another twenty year plus. Shame you are so far away from me as I would love to see you in person and shake you hand. What a hell of an engine you guys made. Can I be so bold and call you both Macgyvers for sure. Peace and out. vf
In relation to the possible leaning off of the rear cylinders. It could be worth looking at the air intake system that was used on the concorde. Originally they had a problem that the jet engines were only suitable for an air intake speed well below that intended flying speed. They fitted the big boxy intakes that had a baffle system inside which slowed the air down and also increased the pressure inside. This gave the engines more power and is said to be the main reason that the concorde is still the only plane to have flown at Mach 2 without after-burners. Very different engines I know nut if you can control what the air is doing inside the intake scoop you may be able to get an even supercharged effect on all 12 cylinders. Just an idea.
I don’t think they have a supersonic air problem. They just need to retain the dynamic air pressure while removing the inertia of the air. An 2” thick aluminum mesh halfway down the cowl would be fine. You just have to induce some turbulence.
I questioned your statement about the Concord, I thought for sure the SR71 could fly supersonic without afterburners, so I did a little reading, you are in fact correct. I'm writing this for the next person like me.
Yep, and on fighter jets vari-ramps are used to keep supersonic air off the turbine blades. Kinda like a choke effect. As I watched, I was thinking of a waste gate type setup also, where spring(manual) and/or solenoid(plc or ecm) contolled widgets thru pressure sensers could help regulate stochiometric value better. Just sayin, charlie
@@bigredc222 The F111 could do those speeds without afterburner, nobody ever dared find the top speed with afterburner - 2.9 was the highest anyone claimed to get to, but that came at great risk of melting the windscreen.
Thank you Mike, ,Please check back early next week, we hope to have a new video posted of this weekends race. We will be running the 3L sheet metal engine. it made 662HP so we hope its enough to set a new record. thank you Greg
High tech and old school all at the same time. God bless Pete and Kevin with many more years, I've enjoyed reading about their exploits since the early 1970's.
I send a few ideas but I figured that they wouldn’t be taken seriously. These guys are “old school” and good at it. Unsolicited ideas are what they line the garbage can with. I was thinking along your lines. I was surprised they didn’t have a knock sensor hooked to a fuel cut off. That’s been around for 20 years. Save a lot of racers a lot of money on engine rebuild. O2 per cylinder is good during testing. I also heard of a BMW or a Mercedes that had a sensor in the front balance wheel the measured the impulse from each cylinder firing. I have never found an after market part that does that. The sensor would have to communicate wirelessly and power would have to be generated by motion of the balance wheel and a magnetic field. Crazy. I want one. The question is “so what do you do if you get a slightly out of normal cylinder”, answer, “ sell the motor, do over”.
An EGT probe on each pipe like an airplane engine with a JPI or EI readout would tell a lot. Then you could jet the fuel at each injector to compensate for the airflow at speed and have onboard adjustable fuel pressure for density altitude. Airplanes have been doing it for years.
@@yelyab1 I’m sure you could use several magnets or bands of N and S on the balancer and it would be able to measure how quick the acceleration is at each firing event. Your idea could work with load cells and weights mounted in the balancer, and/or use TPMS tech for the battery and transmitter design. Or power it without batteries with electromagnets. Just spitballing here 😂
experienced the same problem on a sprint car, we ran a scoop on our airbox to qualify. we ended up Lovering the backside of the scoop mid curve above the airbox with the openings pointing up to relieve the excess pressure. IT WORKED but we weren't anywhere near that speed.. Great Video, and Good Luck.
For the ram air pressure differential issue, they could correct the mixtures using the ECU but the problem is that the front of the engine would essentially be starving of air at high speed and therefore not making optimal power. They really should shoot for equal power from all cylinders. One possible solution would be to have individual, curved intake runners for each throttle body, which all run out to the forward-facing scoop opening, essentially subdividing the opening into 12 equal areas for equal air in each cylinder. Turning the scoop backwards would not only waste the precious ram air effect, but would most likely actually draw some vacuum on the intake.
Love it!! I really miss being in a LSR team, the Ideas/theory & crazy thoughts (some of which end up being pure genius) The late nights, early mornings & extra long weekends just to try & make it happen. At their age, I sure hope I can still be doing it!
Nearly 1,000hp from a NA 6 liter (or somewhere near that) engine is very impressive. Get to 1200 and you’ve matched superbike jP/liter numbers! And 10,000 rpm! 😮😊😮
Gotta love the older guys...Not afraid to jam their fingers into moving pulleys,over running throttle bodies or hot headers!! And dont forget about the 5 gals of race gas balanced between 2 angry pipes!!
I’d love to hear how they created this motor. Why they chose V12 config, what injection system they chose and so on. 920 horses from 369 inches is awesome. Hats off to these guys!
@@gordowg1wg145 You could run a standalone logger to get the EGTs and wideband readings over and above any capability of the system they are running, doesn't have to be closed loop but would sure help to diagnose this issue they are having (and could be hooked to an alarm to tell them to shut down before it goes pop). Seems like they may be stuck in the ways they know, rather than using everything that is now available to help them. I'm sure they've forgotten more old ways than I know though!
Wideband sensors don't play nice with race gas...at least for very long. EGT thermoprobes don't care about what fuel you run, and for what these guys are doing would make the most sense. That would have clearly shown the lean cylinder before it melted had they been running EGT's. And coming from the aircraft world....we've figured out how to diffuse inlet air a LONG time ago. You don't need to 'reinvent the wheel'....just look at other disciplines who deal with high speed air flow and see how they handle it. The inlet area needs to be able to feed the motor, but then you need a gradual increase in area to slow the air down and increase the pressure (Bernoulli's Law at work). It's not the speed of the air coming in that makes the power...it's the increase in pressure. Slow moving high pressure air can then be fed equally across the motor with simple ducting.
Impressive analog diagnostics, feeling the engine’s health by running one’s hands over all of the 12-cylinder, fuel injected racing engine as though it was a newborn puppy.
The scoop needs to be separate from the air box. By bringing the air in from the scoop thru a 180 degree turn and bringing it into the center of the sealed air box ( and installing a diffuser) the pressure to each throttle plate will equalize. Pretty low tech approach, but it will work. Then add some O2 sensors for fuel enrichment as manifold pressure changes, ( or run it fat on the low end and tune for WOT+ 250 AP)
When we race or aircraft, we use EGT (exhaust gas temp) and CHT (cylinder head temp) gauges to help monitor our engines. In your case, you should run EGT and O2 which will give you the optimal read out for gas to air ratios per cylinder. One of your guys said you can adjust each cylinder which we can too, and if that is true, you can either make it manual or auto adjust to the mix or temps you want. Have fun.
The high velocity air coming in (250 mph) is (should be) defused slowly (area increasing) entering a larger dia tube (reducing velocity increasing pressure) , the velocity is reduced as it travels down the difuser and the pressure increased. The trick is to do this in a way that the increased pressure is distributed a cross the intake bank. May have to create a light chamber above to distribute the pressure below via large slots to let the air in above intake ports.o Slot size may vary larger further away smaller closer to high pressure end of the a above chamber
Warms my heart seeing talent and just do it attitude. How quick does it rev....😯😯 I always think of a 'venturi' action when I see rear facing intakes??
I'm a bit late to the party, but motorcycle ram air technology might help. The ram air intakes feed an air box / plenum, which then feeds the carbs / throttle bodies. There's a whole science as to the shape and size of the air box, but the idea seems to be increasing and balancing the pressure feeding each intake. Obviously, the air filter on a street bike helps diffuse the air flow. If no filter is used, some kind of baffles would be needed for the LSR engine.
So feeding air from front for ram air, is in principal a good idea. Atmospheric pressure approx 6 psi, @250mph without bothering to do calculations at this hour of the morning, would easily be around 50pri above atmospheric pressure. Therefore a simple way to transmit equally to all 12 would be to split incoming air charge via a dual plane scoop. What do I mean by that well, if one has a 4 inch hight opening for example, 2 inches feeds first six cylinders. The upper half or 2 inches feeds the back 6 cylinders. And as dad always said nothing ventured nothing gained. He was 2nd gen Engineer and I simply followed in his footsteps for my 40yr career. I wish the team all the luck with this musical motor, Sincerly Steve 😉🙂👍👍
Its very difficult to test drive a land speed car. Pete tunes it on the Dyno but as you know its very difficult to recreate 250MPH air flow. Thanks for these calculations. I will share them with Pete and Kevin.
Instead of putting a relief in the back of the scoop,run an internally split intake scoop. The top inlet provides air for the rear six pack inlets, and the lower provides air for the front six pack. The some simple tuning and your good. Thermal couplers on each exhaust will help with the tuning, and 4 O2 sensors to ensure your tune is just a little richer than stoseometric.
Very cool very fun stuff and would love to do welding for this kind of stuff . I’m an aviation welder by trade. Now it could be possible to put stator veins in your scoop and then trim or adjust them accordingly so all cylinders are getting the same air pressure through the intakes . Flow and pressure are like volts and amps . Love the project
I believe they are 100% on track, in their thinking the air is stacking at the back of the scoop. The answer isn't just to run the back 2 holes richer (actually less lean), it's to tighten the difference in air being fed to between all the 12 holes. 1) a driver or ecu (or timer) controlled flapper on the back of the plenum. If you wanted to do a bit of math, you could rig that trap door with a spring and not have to think about it again, but I'd rather it's opening (and amount of opening) is a known and logged event. 2) you could have 2 intakes/plenums to feed the front 6 and back 6. A little baffling is fun to play with too, but it's such a dynamic environment in a intake, that it's a ton of chasing.
The back seat engineer in me says you don't want to enrich the rear cylinders as they would then make too much power - relative to the others. More appropriate would be to close those butterflies a little bit to bring the mixture back in line with the rest of the engine... which would then make the surplus pressure available to the cylinders in front... balance the air flow.
@@sexyfacenation If it were a small. percentage... say 10-15% more, probably little risk. But the pressure buildup at the back of an intake ram would (at speed) probably result in a 2:1 difference, which could cause crankshaft twist problems... or at least highly unbalanced cylinder combustion pressures... leading to rear-most cylinder related failures. This is why some racers have used individual "per cylinder" ram stacks.
@@beforebefore wouldn't matter. You want each cylinder to make as much power as it can. The engine won't break due to some cylinders making more power.
I think doing some wind tunnel testing with your air box to create baffles to even out the flow/pressure, and then incorporate a pressure sensor that adjusts your fuel mixture. This would allow you to take advantage of the vehicle speed.
Absolute bad asses!!!!! These men are so smart. What a great team. What great thinking and engineering. Hats off to you boys. Note the using of water to check if the cylinders are the same temp. No laser deal nope old school water style. Works just as well. Bad asses! Cam driven alternator? Sick
👍👌👏 Oh WOW! Simply fantastic! That beast sounds sooo good and extremely aggressive = strong! Very well done (video and work). Chapeau to the builders/inventors. They really did another outstanding job. Hope their health stays on. Thanks a lot for making explaining recording editing uploading and sharing. Best regards, luck and health to all involved people.
@@GregQuirin thank very much for the link. That sounded absolutely amazing at full tilt. You have a new subscriber PS how can you rev it that high without blowing it up? Lol
Chamber the intake like a flowmaster to divert the air. Maybe put a map sensor on front amd back of the scoop to monitor the difference and adjust baffles.
You have figure out the density pressure with an adjustable inlet to take the immediate inlet velocity to convert to pressure by slowing down by having the inlet into the chamber becoming greatly enlarged and variable relative to speed. From a high velocity inlet convergence to a divergence to increase high chamber pressure from the slowing down the of the velocity. Having all the intakes to the engine see the same volume where the chamber inlet would be variable however the chamber volume remaining unchanged from the point of divergence. Its how the SR 71 was able to prevent compressor stalls by moving its inlet cone at speed and altitude, and how all turbine engines work internally by creating a pressure wall for the combustion at the point of fuel introduction and then ignited thereby creating thrust not being able to overcome the pressure wall developed at the point of greatest divergence.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
Spraying the water on the exhaust and watching how far down it boiled is genius, most people would just grab an non contact thermometer, but that wasn't available back in the day. It really speaks to just how clever these guys are
Pete and Kevin are old school, but for sure know their stuff. I'm learning lots just hanging out with these guys.
I was taught to do that by my grandfather in the 70s when I started up a fresh engine and it had a miss . I was dumbfounded at first but when he explained it it made perfect sense and point to the cylinder that had a bad plug wire. He told me they did it back in the 20s to determine which cylinder was lame. Never forgot that trick and it was a treat to see that being used here.
Beats licking your finger and dabbing on the pipe
The method is different, but the results are the same - one running colder, or if lean, running hotter (so the water boils off faster) is the one to investigate - did the same with a junkyard 3.3 in to my Voyager, to find a bad injector with the thermometer, exhaust was cool, plug coated in soot, injector was stuck open. Replace and runs like new.
@@David_Walker16-3-51 still do it that way when im in a hurry
Awesome stuff, I'm an engineer based in Queensland, Australia and that would have to be one of the sweetest engines I have ever seen come out of a small workshop like this. Pete and Kevin, I definitely raise a glass to you guys, thanks for sharing this Greg, great video and audio.
How smooth does that idle, for a high strung race motor ?? :)
You should see how they made it. They chopped off a cylinder of 4 cylinder head then welded the two separate 3 cylinder heads to make one 6 cylinder head for one bank. Pretty homemade.
If you see all of their engines you will figure out they are better than any engineer with a full-blown team
you 2 guys are genius better than the stuff you get today congratz, make sure you get it on the track to test beautiful
They old as dirt, they bones crack, they got mini me's going BUT them ole beavers can still build one helluva dam-n powerful in-jine, I no, old dad joke but I'm an old dad sooo🧐
Smoothness on the trolley indicates just how well balanced this beautiful Engine is … great job guys !
All inline 6 cylinder and multiples there of are inherently balanced. Excellent design 👌
@@flaplaya Not many people know that....I6 is balanced primary and secondary....V12 is balanced perfect, and works well to have a 7 main - 6 throw - engine at 60° angle.
Old machinists and mechanical engineers never retire, their ambition and legacy just gets bigger.
Oh my God , what a sound. Sounds like a mix of drag bike and Indy car. You guys are what gearheads like me dream of becoming.
These guys know what it’s all about. Old school. Air of confidence.just cool no nonsense dudes with lot of experience. Gives you a great feeling just watching these guys.👍🏽
I appreciate that! stay tuned I will have more video soon. thanks for Watching Greg
I hope some young people are watching these old guys they're so full of knowledge good stuff
Sad news is with the electrification of the car industry these skills will be lost in the future.
You know an engine is tough when it melts a piston and still propells a vehicle to two seventy nine. That is an amazing engine.
Your right about that, Pete wonders what it would have done if it was firing on all 12.
Thank you for being the fly on the wall, straight sound & shop audio 👌🏾 interesting to see these guys interact and think through things, pointing things and and communicating.. living legends
Thank you for watching! I’m not pro with the camera however this stuff is so cool and needs to be documented for people like yourself who have an appreciation for this stuff. I just posted A new video on my channel featuring a DOHC Chevy small block Pete Aardema made as well.
this engine is a mechanical masterpiece absolutely brilliant
Thank you, this is one of many masterpieces in Pete collection of odd ball motors.
I love it when one or two people get together and design and build something like that from scratch using their own ideas. Great video. Much respect for those two gentlemen.
Thank you Wayne!, Pete and Kevin are amazing. Thanks for watching the video and please subscribe if you can. More cool stuff coming soon. Greg Q
@@GregQuirin
You are very welcome and thank you for the video.
Just proves we don’t need corporate America. Outstanding job
Think of this from a different point of view. These old guys probably grew up playing with junk yard cars like I did. I'm a little older than they are, and spent much of my teen years with my Chicago buddies building junk yard cars for the drag strip. What that means is that we bought everything including the car at one of our many auto junk yards. Why...because we had more skills than money.
I ended up moving on and became an engineer after serving in Vietnam. My point is this. These fellows have taken their skills to a whole different level. Just like fine carpenters and other craftsmen and ladies. My worry is that with few exceptions, there are no more junk yard car opportunities for young folks. And I mean that as an analogy to so many other hands on crafts. Just like there are very few apprentice offers to pass on the old skills that built our nation.
Having said all that, these guys rock. That's for sure.
With an o² sensor per cylinder,they could really see what's happening,ang make log files at least.
A good tune could enrichen on the fly,if you indicate a AFR target,they could squeeze a bunch of HP too.
A map sensor on the front and on the rear of the engine in the intake volume,could help them for the aero,and air feed pressure datas knowledge on the engine.
@@FyreSturmOfficial
I think you are sarcastic,but i'm not sure.
When you have so many cylinders and use the engine in difficult conditions,you need to know what's going on.
O² sensors can allow you to avoid melted pistons,intake plenum can distribute air unevenly ,specially at high vehicle speed.
It's good practice on high end stuff like here.
No build is complete without the requisite vise-grips somewhere on the build! Great work as usual guys. Can't wait to see it run.
These folks know exactly what they are doing. Some of the best builders in the world
Pete and Kevin are always improving and they have several engine builds all different going on in the shop. The V12 only ran one season and Pete and Kevin are building the 2 liter , as well as the Moser and considering now a possible 3rd V12 build. Thanks for watching! Greg
@@GregQuirin thank you for showing great job!
just recently started learning about engines a fews weeks back and i can't help but appreciate old gearheads. they were way ahead of their time when it comes to this kind of stuff before internet even existed.
6:45 don't put a relief in the back of the scoop, you will loose power at speed. Put a separator, or splitter inside the scoop to give an even amount of air to the front and back six throttles. Or two scoops, one for the front six and one for the back six throttles.
Yup! Need to even out the pressure, so all the cylinders can make the same power.
Either baffles and separators inside, or a variable restrictor that keeps the pressure constant in the whole of the plenum, and can vary according to vehicle speed and throttle loads, like the cone in front of the SR-71's jet engines.
My goodness gracious Pete, you are so active at eighty years of age. May God bless you with another twenty year plus. Shame you are so far away from me as I would love to see you in person and shake you hand. What a hell of an engine you guys made. Can I be so bold and call you both Macgyvers for sure. Peace and out. vf
80 AND STILL WRENCHIN', WHAT A DUDE!
Yep, Pete wrenches 7 days a week! It's deep into his DNA.
That engine sounds rowdy when you Crack the throttles!
In relation to the possible leaning off of the rear cylinders. It could be worth looking at the air intake system that was used on the concorde. Originally they had a problem that the jet engines were only suitable for an air intake speed well below that intended flying speed. They fitted the big boxy intakes that had a baffle system inside which slowed the air down and also increased the pressure inside. This gave the engines more power and is said to be the main reason that the concorde is still the only plane to have flown at Mach 2 without after-burners. Very different engines I know nut if you can control what the air is doing inside the intake scoop you may be able to get an even supercharged effect on all 12 cylinders. Just an idea.
I don’t think they have a supersonic air problem. They just need to retain the dynamic air pressure while removing the inertia of the air. An 2” thick aluminum mesh halfway down the cowl would be fine. You just have to induce some turbulence.
I questioned your statement about the Concord, I thought for sure the SR71 could fly supersonic without afterburners, so I did a little reading, you are in fact correct.
I'm writing this for the next person like me.
@@bigredc222 Thank you, They were a truly remarkable work of engineering.
Yep, and on fighter jets vari-ramps are used to keep supersonic air off the turbine blades. Kinda like a choke effect. As I watched, I was thinking of a waste gate type setup also, where spring(manual) and/or solenoid(plc or ecm) contolled widgets thru pressure sensers could help regulate stochiometric value better. Just sayin, charlie
@@bigredc222 The F111 could do those speeds without afterburner, nobody ever dared find the top speed with afterburner - 2.9 was the highest anyone claimed to get to, but that came at great risk of melting the windscreen.
When my grandpa raised his Sprint car at Knoxville Iowa at a 130+ miles an hour the airbox would create 1to 2 PSI of air and lean the motor out
Absolute magic with old school knowledge and techniques. Thank you for sharing this video. Made my day.
Thank you, I posted a couple videos of Pete’s motors and race car.
Multiport electronic injection, coil on plug electronic ignition, dual ohc v12,dry sump oiling. NOT old school at all
I used to work in the same building, and that thing would make the whole place rumble when they fired it up! Absolute beast!
Yep we know what you mean. This sound of the V12 is intense at 10,000RPM on the dyno!
Beautiful masterpiece people will be talking about this for decades and years
Thank you Mike, ,Please check back early next week, we hope to have a new video posted of this weekends race. We will be running the 3L sheet metal engine. it made 662HP so we hope its enough to set a new record. thank you Greg
I love the sound of the V12, that they built this is amazing
Thank you for watching the video. More cool stuff coming soon!
High tech and old school all at the same time. God bless Pete and Kevin with many more years, I've enjoyed reading about their exploits since the early 1970's.
If I remember correctly, Aardema came up with some interesting overhead cam conversions for small block Chevies back in the day.
Yes. I found this...DOHC 350 th-cam.com/video/9W17Hh64nlQ/w-d-xo.html
Put a mass air flow sensors on all 12 stacks with individual air filters on top of each stack
O2 sensor per cylinder is a good idea. Not only can you be able to tune each cylinder you will be able to figure out whats going on at each.
I send a few ideas but I figured that they wouldn’t be taken seriously. These guys are “old school” and good at it. Unsolicited ideas are what they line the garbage can with. I was thinking along your lines. I was surprised they didn’t have a knock sensor hooked to a fuel cut off. That’s been around for 20 years. Save a lot of racers a lot of money on engine rebuild. O2 per cylinder is good during testing. I also heard of a BMW or a Mercedes that had a sensor in the front balance wheel the measured the impulse from each cylinder firing. I have never found an after market part that does that. The sensor would have to communicate wirelessly and power would have to be generated by motion of the balance wheel and a magnetic field. Crazy. I want one. The question is “so what do you do if you get a slightly out of normal cylinder”, answer, “ sell the motor, do over”.
An EGT probe on each pipe like an airplane engine with a JPI or EI readout would tell a lot. Then you could jet the fuel at each injector to compensate for the airflow at speed and have onboard adjustable fuel pressure for density altitude. Airplanes have been doing it for years.
@@yelyab1 I’m sure you could use several magnets or bands of N and S on the balancer and it would be able to measure how quick the acceleration is at each firing event. Your idea could work with load cells and weights mounted in the balancer, and/or use TPMS tech for the battery and transmitter design. Or power it without batteries with electromagnets. Just spitballing here 😂
@@yelyab1 I’m surprised nobody has figured out a way to use an alternator as the measuring device based on the waveform it puts out.
This is Nutz!! I love it ❤❤
experienced the same problem on a sprint car, we ran a scoop on our airbox to qualify. we ended up Lovering the backside of the scoop mid curve above the airbox with the openings pointing up to relieve the excess pressure. IT WORKED but we weren't anywhere near that speed.. Great Video, and Good Luck.
Thanks for the info !
American V12 sweet from San Antonio Texas
V12 the true racing sound.
Two good old boys with a passion making things happen.
Thank you!
Man does that sound amazing!!!!! 👍👍👍👍👍 old guys rule!!!!!!!!’
Glorious exhaust note! Just...wow. Well done, gents, well done indeed.
Glad you enjoyed it did you see and hear this one? fb.watch/9uVBxdJF0H/
For the ram air pressure differential issue, they could correct the mixtures using the ECU but the problem is that the front of the engine would essentially be starving of air at high speed and therefore not making optimal power. They really should shoot for equal power from all cylinders. One possible solution would be to have individual, curved intake runners for each throttle body, which all run out to the forward-facing scoop opening, essentially subdividing the opening into 12 equal areas for equal air in each cylinder. Turning the scoop backwards would not only waste the precious ram air effect, but would most likely actually draw some vacuum on the intake.
I thought the same plan
Now that’s a sound you won’t hear everyday….so awesome 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
th-cam.com/video/d5kV3qkz6FM/w-d-xo.html Listen to this - thanks Greg
Who ever said tri-y headers aren't good for top end power? Ha! Pete and Kevin are incredible!
Love it!! I really miss being in a LSR team, the Ideas/theory & crazy thoughts (some of which end up being pure genius) The late nights, early mornings & extra long weekends just to try & make it happen. At their age, I sure hope I can still be doing it!
I'm imagining how much horsepower these guys have produced over the years. More than enough.
Yea. You always looking for just another 100hp.
Definition of an Engine: A Mechanical Device with Insufficient Power. - C.F. Taylor.
(The Man who wrote the book).
Undoubtedly, definitely, a unique, unprecedented, unparalleled masterpiece. Thanks.Absolutely
Nearly 1,000hp from a NA 6 liter (or somewhere near that) engine is very impressive. Get to 1200 and you’ve matched superbike jP/liter numbers! And 10,000 rpm! 😮😊😮
Holy Shit!!!!
A built from scratch V12!!!!
As a machinist thats incredibly Cool!!!
fb.watch/9uVBxdJF0H/ check it out on the dyno
@@GregQuirin
Pretty impressive!
Gotta love the older guys...Not afraid to jam their fingers into moving pulleys,over running throttle bodies or hot headers!! And dont forget about the 5 gals of race gas balanced between 2 angry pipes!!
OG Gear Heads!!
Like watching magic!
Always have had a deep interest in crafting metal into something. These guys are the top level.
Thank you and thanks for watching! Greg
Inline-6 = perfect primary balance.
V-12 almost as perfectly balanced.
I-6s and V-12s are FANTASTIC engines.
I’d love to hear how they created this motor. Why they chose V12 config, what injection system they chose and so on. 920 horses from 369 inches is awesome. Hats off to these guys!
Thank you!
@@GregQuirin I did find my way to the vid on all the motor details. Fascinating.
Impressive, very impressive. Great work guys! You make all lifetime car guys feel proud.
Much appreciated!
Real men. Real machine. Millennials in Tesla’s will never be a stain in the underwear of people like this.
The three mismatched intake trumpets and homely alternator pulley setup only make this incredible motor even more beautiful.
I'd be logging data on 12 wideband sensors if I spent the money on building a one off custom V12.
true. surprised to see fuel injection and electronic ignition with such little telemetry. guess they just "know".
Well, while I'd agree with you, and EGR's, there may be UCU support issues - but at least 4 in the primary collectors would give some useful data.
@@gordowg1wg145 You could run a standalone logger to get the EGTs and wideband readings over and above any capability of the system they are running, doesn't have to be closed loop but would sure help to diagnose this issue they are having (and could be hooked to an alarm to tell them to shut down before it goes pop). Seems like they may be stuck in the ways they know, rather than using everything that is now available to help them. I'm sure they've forgotten more old ways than I know though!
Losing a cylinder because it ran lean? That would have cost more than 12 closed loop Widebands!
Wideband sensors don't play nice with race gas...at least for very long. EGT thermoprobes don't care about what fuel you run, and for what these guys are doing would make the most sense. That would have clearly shown the lean cylinder before it melted had they been running EGT's.
And coming from the aircraft world....we've figured out how to diffuse inlet air a LONG time ago. You don't need to 'reinvent the wheel'....just look at other disciplines who deal with high speed air flow and see how they handle it. The inlet area needs to be able to feed the motor, but then you need a gradual increase in area to slow the air down and increase the pressure (Bernoulli's Law at work). It's not the speed of the air coming in that makes the power...it's the increase in pressure. Slow moving high pressure air can then be fed equally across the motor with simple ducting.
Impressive analog diagnostics, feeling the engine’s health by running one’s hands over all of the 12-cylinder, fuel injected racing engine as though it was a newborn puppy.
There is so much to learn from guys like this, decades of experience. Thanks for sharing.
Been watching through a bunch of these videos, didn't realize pete was 80! He looks great for that age, benefit of keeping your mind and body working.
Thanks for watching! We should have some more content soon! Greg Q
This put a smile to my face.
Love listening to old timers talk hp
Gotta love that v12 sound. Awesome work
Glad you like it! thanks for watching!
Damn....that sounds GOOD! Thanks for sharing. Take that....Tesla.
The scoop needs to be separate from the air box.
By bringing the air in from the scoop thru a 180 degree turn and bringing it into the center of the sealed air box ( and installing a diffuser) the pressure to each throttle plate will equalize.
Pretty low tech approach, but it will work.
Then add some O2 sensors for fuel enrichment as manifold pressure changes, ( or run it fat on the low end and tune for WOT+ 250 AP)
When we race or aircraft, we use EGT (exhaust gas temp) and CHT (cylinder head temp) gauges to help monitor our engines. In your case, you should run EGT and O2 which will give you the optimal read out for gas to air ratios per cylinder. One of your guys said you can adjust each cylinder which we can too, and if that is true, you can either make it manual or auto adjust to the mix or temps you want. Have fun.
Agreed the ECU should be able to handle multi EGT, data first
The high velocity air coming in (250 mph) is (should be) defused slowly (area increasing) entering a larger dia tube (reducing velocity increasing pressure) , the velocity is reduced as it travels down the difuser and the pressure increased.
The trick is to do this in a way that the increased pressure is distributed a cross the intake bank. May have to create a light chamber above to distribute the pressure below via large slots to let the air in above intake ports.o Slot size may vary larger further away smaller closer to high pressure end of the a above chamber
Warms my heart seeing talent and just do it attitude. How quick does it rev....😯😯
I always think of a 'venturi' action when I see rear facing intakes??
Gotta love gear heads and eniguity, I like the placement of the c 14 race fuel bucket
LOL @ dog just standing there staring down the shed, revs the engine -> dog unphased -> must win staring comp!!!1!1
VERY VERY INTERESTING CONVERSATIONS RIGHT HERE !!!!!!
The accumulated knowledge and experience is mind boggling.
I'm a bit late to the party, but motorcycle ram air technology might help. The ram air intakes feed an air box / plenum, which then feeds the carbs / throttle bodies. There's a whole science as to the shape and size of the air box, but the idea seems to be increasing and balancing the pressure feeding each intake. Obviously, the air filter on a street bike helps diffuse the air flow. If no filter is used, some kind of baffles would be needed for the LSR engine.
That is the coolest thing I'd ever seen - and I am 62 years old
Living the dream these guys are!
Thank you for Watching! Hope to have more cool stuff uploaded soon. Stay tuned!
So feeding air from front for ram air, is in principal a good idea.
Atmospheric pressure approx 6 psi, @250mph without bothering to do calculations at this hour of the morning, would easily be around 50pri above atmospheric pressure.
Therefore a simple way to transmit equally to all 12 would be to split incoming air charge via a dual plane scoop.
What do I mean by that well, if one has a 4 inch hight opening for example, 2 inches feeds first six cylinders.
The upper half or 2 inches feeds the back 6 cylinders.
And as dad always said nothing ventured nothing gained.
He was 2nd gen Engineer and I simply followed in his footsteps for my 40yr career.
I wish the team all the luck with this musical motor, Sincerly Steve 😉🙂👍👍
Its very difficult to test drive a land speed car. Pete tunes it on the Dyno but as you know its very difficult to recreate 250MPH air flow. Thanks for these calculations. I will share them with Pete and Kevin.
@@GregQuirin There not calculations Greg, just numbers off the top of my head early in the morning, before finishing my coffee.😉😁😂🙂👍👍
Instead of putting a relief in the back of the scoop,run an internally split intake scoop. The top inlet provides air for the rear six pack inlets, and the lower provides air for the front six pack.
The some simple tuning and your good.
Thermal couplers on each exhaust will help with the tuning, and 4 O2 sensors to ensure your tune is just a little richer than stoseometric.
Very cool very fun stuff and would love to do welding for this kind of stuff . I’m an aviation welder by trade. Now it could be possible to put stator veins in your scoop and then trim or adjust them accordingly so all cylinders are getting the same air pressure through the intakes . Flow and pressure are like volts and amps . Love the project
Thank you Dano, They have added a baffle above all 12 throttle bodies inside the air box. It should be good the go now!.
Vice grips always have a use. Awesome content. A lost art being brought to life.
I believe they are 100% on track, in their thinking the air is stacking at the back of the scoop. The answer isn't just to run the back 2 holes richer (actually less lean), it's to tighten the difference in air being fed to between all the 12 holes.
1) a driver or ecu (or timer) controlled flapper on the back of the plenum. If you wanted to do a bit of math, you could rig that trap door with a spring and not have to think about it again, but I'd rather it's opening (and amount of opening) is a known and logged event.
2) you could have 2 intakes/plenums to feed the front 6 and back 6. A little baffling is fun to play with too, but it's such a dynamic environment in a intake, that it's a ton of chasing.
Thanks for the info I will pass this on to Pete and Kevin.
The back seat engineer in me says you don't want to enrich the rear cylinders as they would then make too much power - relative to the others. More appropriate would be to close those butterflies a little bit to bring the mixture back in line with the rest of the engine... which would then make the surplus pressure available to the cylinders in front... balance the air flow.
Why would the back cylinders making more power be bad?
@@sexyfacenation If it were a small. percentage... say 10-15% more, probably little risk. But the pressure buildup at the back of an intake ram would (at speed) probably result in a 2:1 difference, which could cause crankshaft twist problems... or at least highly unbalanced cylinder combustion pressures... leading to rear-most cylinder related failures.
This is why some racers have used individual "per cylinder" ram stacks.
@@beforebefore wouldn't matter. You want each cylinder to make as much power as it can. The engine won't break due to some cylinders making more power.
Black thumbs Masta Wrench mecha doctors, glorious!
I'd REALLY like to stuff that into my IS 350...
Pete and Kevin look like legends.
Sounds awesome
absolutely, & hearing it in person at 10k RPM buzzing down the racetrack at 279 MPH is a whole other experience. Thank for watching, Greg.
I think doing some wind tunnel testing with your air box to create baffles to even out the flow/pressure, and then incorporate a pressure sensor that adjusts your fuel mixture. This would allow you to take advantage of the vehicle speed.
9,800 RPM V12 is insane.
I would expect @ a 6,000 limit
Pete and Kevin’s new 5L V12 will have a 12,000 rpm limit
Oh man.. what a feeling! Congrats Pete! you did awesome!
Superb Audio and an incredible build and Video!
Thanks guys💪🍻😁
Yeah, sounds a little bit like the Offenhauser of years gone bye, loving it.
OMG......What a Beautiful Sound!!!
Sounds even better on the Dyno - Here you go fb.watch/9r0G-HPb30/
Absolute bad asses!!!!! These men are so smart. What a great team. What great thinking and engineering. Hats off to you boys. Note the using of water to check if the cylinders are the same temp. No laser deal nope old school water style. Works just as well. Bad asses! Cam driven alternator? Sick
👍👌👏 Oh WOW! Simply fantastic! That beast sounds sooo good and extremely aggressive = strong! Very well done (video and work). Chapeau to the builders/inventors. They really did another outstanding job. Hope their health stays on.
Thanks a lot for making explaining recording editing uploading and sharing.
Best regards, luck and health to all involved people.
Such a sweet sound, and sadly, not as loud as I thought it would be. Great stuff guys.
Probably _a lot_ louder IRL.
My respect! Smart people always impresses me.👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻🎯
What a legend, true master.
It sounds like a 90's F1 engine, which is not a bad thing :)
Amazing work. Those few revs sounded amazing
th-cam.com/video/d5kV3qkz6FM/w-d-xo.html Hear on the dyno at 9800 RPM !
@@GregQuirin thank very much for the link. That sounded absolutely amazing at full tilt. You have a new subscriber
PS how can you rev it that high without blowing it up? Lol
Boy,... That sure sounds like this old 8.6L I made 20+ years ago, to me!😁👍
Old guys doing what old guys do best. Awesome
Chamber the intake like a flowmaster to divert the air. Maybe put a map sensor on front amd back of the scoop to monitor the difference and adjust baffles.
You have figure out the density pressure with an adjustable inlet to take the immediate inlet velocity to convert to pressure by slowing down by having the inlet into the chamber becoming greatly enlarged and variable relative to speed. From a high velocity inlet convergence to a divergence to increase high chamber pressure from the slowing down the of the velocity. Having all the intakes to the engine see the same volume where the chamber inlet would be variable however the chamber volume remaining unchanged from the point of divergence. Its how the SR 71 was able to prevent compressor stalls by moving its inlet cone at speed and altitude, and how all turbine engines work internally by creating a pressure wall for the combustion at the point of fuel introduction and then ignited thereby creating thrust not being able to overcome the pressure wall developed at the point of greatest divergence.