For me, the key difference that I've noticed is that you just can't reach a narcissist. The level of selfishness feels surreal, and talking to them resolves nothing on any level. You start wishing you had a camera at all times because it feels like no one would believe what they've said or done. And they seem to live in some type of parallel universe that keeps shifting depending upon the day and time. Also, narcissists can just come across as toxic when you don't really have to deal with them much or very often. It's best to avoid both narcs and toxic people as much as humanly possible.
I'm ready to avoid both types. After being a people-pleaser for years, and having had both a narcissistic mother and first husband, I'm a little raw. I pushed out of the people-pleasing, but am told I'm empathic, sort of hyper-sensitive. I value people a great deal, but some are just exhausting for me. Not willing to endure more. I'm all here for those easy-going and forgiving.
I come from a family with many narcissistic and I would say, psychopathic traits. I have moved 10,000 km's away now to a country that it's very difficult for them to get in to. I went home last Summer for a few days, just so I could keep the peace and keep them from disturbing my new life, which they would do. - If anyone thinks you can go completely no contact with these types of people you have no idea the lengths some will go to. These people, and their friends have called National radio stations before in relation to some things. But using every means necessary to find someone, including governmental services and ruining someone's new job by harassing your employer with requests would be nothing to them. Really nothing. I don't come from America so the laws in my country are different but also coming any distance to spend the day banging on your door until you open would also be nothing to them. - Anyway, just being home for a day reminded me how hellish it is, or why I used to have that people pleasing tendency. You have a few hours at most where they treated you civilly, even if having not seen you for a year or a few years. After that, the gaslighting, the relentless, utterly relentless manipulation of every ounce of your being takes place. Like they really see you as a robot to do their bidding and if you do not, you are the worst person that ever lived. I got a pain in my side and decided to just stay in my friends houses, and one other family members house who is decent enough as much as possible. Unfortunately that family member also has a daughter who has identical traits to my parents. All bullies. Anyway, when I'm far far away from them all for many years, I now have toned back on my people pleasing. I would say do whatever you can to get away from these sort of vampiric people. Do the grey rock method, and talking about the weather, or any benign subjects with them if you have to deal with them for anything. My dad now actually doesn't insult me anymore when he greets me. He's now elevated to calling me horse. When younger, it was just insults. As the good doctor above says, you only have peace from these people after they die.
@@AntonoconI'm SO sorry for You and what You been true snd wats still going on into Your life. I really hope that You can get a normal life some day. I know by my own experiences living 10 years in a relationship whit a covert narcissist until I discarded and abrupt left him year 2014. After that he constantly harrased me and even his little army of Flying Monkeys for many years until I get rid of them and the narcissist by doing NC to everyone of them and of course moved far away from that town. But absolutely not as far away as You have been forced to 😢 Then the covert narcissist died last February year 2023 in multiple of diagnosis of his alcoholism. Alone in his flat and was found 2 days later of his sister cause his CEO at his workplace was missing him. I should lie to You if I say I felt sorrow or grief EVEN I admit its pity cause of his 6 children as are alive. The children have mixed feelings to their father ... I only feel reliefed. Those children are grown up and between the age of 21 years old up ino 36 years old. They have also been harassed and abused by their father. Good for Me is that those children are not mine cause I met the narcissist when we where adults. Anyhow - now I'm healed (almost...) and living a calm and peaceful life. I'm still singel but that is a choise I have done cause I want som space to live by my self a couple of years more until I feel more sure of my own behavior that I have to work on and change - my ppl and codepency behavior (emotional) and plus that I'm a big/Great empath IS a big attraction to toxic people and narcissist = A BIG Warning Bell I think for me and I MUST change my personality and behavior with that until I even think about to go into a New relationship 😎 Hope You got Calm and Peace for now and further in Your life and path 🤗 Take Care 💞
My husband is covert and he isn’t vulnerable whatsoever. He is charming socially but evil behind closed doors. He knows what he is doing. He is manipulative, controlling, argumentative, selfish, egotistical, plays victim when it suits. Oh, and the long silences at a time, just cruel!The chaos and confusion is awful. The victim is the vunerable one.
Vulnerable here is being used in a clinical sense. Watching her talks on covert vulnerable narcissism might help clarify the meaning in this context verses everyday meaning of the word.
All narcissists are toxic people. Not all toxic people are narcissists. I sometimes use the word toxic to describe narcissistic people because I feel like writing one short quick word "toxic". It takes more than 11 toxic traits to diagnose a toxic person as a narcissist. Love this much needed video. Love the part you mention about pay attention to how you feel, you can feel a bit uncomfortable and annoyed by toxic people. While you'd feel confuse, self doubt, self shame, self sacrifice, feeling extreme anger, feeling rage, feeling gaslighted, feeling the strong sense of creep out, there is this gut wrenching feeling with any narcissists and psychopaths because they are very twisted, delusional, and very manipulative. The gut instinct knows.
@@azkamahmood8222’So glad you used the term “ creatures”. No human being thinks and does the heinous, malicious things that narcissists come up with, consistently. They are pure evil, demonic. ‘Wolves in sheep’s clothing, and worse yet, wolves often travel in packs.
@daleenreed9560 they are shameless predators and will use every tactic to control their supply I'm also glad to find people like you who can understand the level of evil we are dealing with
I think two big “tests” as to figuring out if a person is toxic or a narcissist, is the ability to introspect and experience remorse. Even the most toxic of people have at least a little shred of these traits. They might be stingy with their expression, but they are present. A narcissist, however, does not possess these traits and truly cannot comprehend the impact they have on other people. They ALWAYS have a justification for their behaviour and therefore do not ever experience true remorse.
@@tatianaa.3694omg yes i fell for that fake remorse once and took her back in. It was absolutely convincing at first. But 2 years later she did the same terrible stuff again and absolutely has no remorse for it. Only confirming that she never ever felt the true remorse or guilt it took to come out it clean. This time even more worse and gruesome. Finally confirmed she’s an outright covert narcissist through pain, time and shame. Destroying one’s soul is an understatement.
I once waited 10 years for my former narc to apologize for something so obviously needing an apology. It never came. I thought a moment would come to them when they realized this. Nope. It never dawned on her.
@@tatianaa.3694yes and we can put ourselves in great danger if we believe them and let them back into our lives - best case scenario they just repeat the more benign maddening behaviors - toxic ones - worse case scenario they amo them up and seemingly get satisfaction out of it
In my experience, I’ve found that people who engage in toxic behaviors are capable of dialog about their behavior, and self-reflection, and learning, in ways that are impossible for a narcissist. And they are better at accepting boundaries when you need to set them in order to keep engaging with them. A narcissist is incapable of respecting the boundaries of others, is angered by them, and sometimes derives pleasure from violating them. One of my best friends has OCD. Sometimes his behavior is toxic. He is self-aware (narcissists aren’t) and he has the capacity to listen to feedback constructively (narcissists don’t). He does not have the capacity to completely rein in the toxic behavior. He’s working with the brain he has, not the brain he wishes he had. And when he is in the weeds, I limit my time around him and check in from a distance, because I am a narcissistic abuse survivor. Because of my life experiences (and with the help of quality therapy) I can clearly see the difference. It is worth learning to work around the behavior of my sometimes toxic friend. It is not worth trying to do the same with a narcissist.
My wife tells me: “I know I made inappropriate comments but I promise I wasn’t trying to be mean.” Also “you know how hard it is for me to apologize?! I wish you would just get over it and sense that I am sorry.” Not even sure what to say to that… I just remember Dr. Ramani saying use the DEEP method because there is no point of trying explain why both of the statements above are horrible and there is no accountability.
@@REBEKAHJOHNSON-lh6xh yep my thoughts exactly. I had to explain to her why saying sorry is important, its so the other person can see that you are taking accountability for your mistake so the other person can move forward.
Just because ofher people don’t think they’re toxic, doesn’t mean they’re not narcissistic. Looots of cases where people have a great time with the narcissist because they’re great to them, really fun, charismatic and great company.
Thank you for this, Dr Ramani! There is a huge distinction between a toxic person and a narcissist. Just because we don't like being around someone because their behavior bothers us, doesn't necessarily mean they're a narcissist. The term "narcissist" has a particular meaning, and it is a word that is thrown around alot casually these days, by those who don't truly understand what it is. It does a disservice to those of us whose lives have been shattered by a narcissist!
And sometimes someone who we may think is toxic is really a narcissist, but we don't know them well enough to make that conclusion yet. And maybe we never will, because we distance ourselves due to their toxicity.
You are such a treasure. I’m coparenting with a malignant sort and most people just hear me describing a toxic person. But to be their target, and to endure relentless bullying is so hard to convey. So thank you for sharing your knowledge and understanding. 💝🥳
Thank you for clarifying this. The internet is teeming with people calling everyone else a narcissist. They often don’t bother to look inward to see their own toxic behaviors.
Exactly, being raised by a psychopath I had narcissistic learned behaviors. After studying narcissism I noticed sometimes what came out of my mouth wasn’t me and it was extremely inappropriate! The good thing I have learned to grow. Not saying if I get around a narcissist I may give em a bit of their own medicine and run like a bear is gonna chase me-
I’ve seen several questionable women claim their ex was a narcissist and that’s why they broke up. But these women often won’t explain what the ex boyfriend/husband did wrong that show he was a narcissist. I feel that word has often been used casually without knowing what it really means.
@@SherryTomlinson-r2ygiving them the taste of their own medicine to a narc. Is usually discard and abandonment as far as I know. Those 2 are their kryptonites or arch nemesis. What kind of medicine did you give them? I’m intrigued
@ ask questions I know the truth to. Tell em they are lying they double up call me a name or project themselves on me. I tell them being they feel that way about me . And I’m gone. Does it phase em no! So I run.
This was very helpful! It seems to me, that when it comes to forgiveness, it’s easier to forgive those who are toxic, with a live and let live attitude, but much more difficult to forgive a narcissist, because there is only the false self to be acknowledged.
"...and every other kind of 'IST' you can think of..." Dr. Ramani knows how to express a thought in such a precise, relatable way. She's a master in the area of effective communication. Thank you, Dr. Ramani!😊❤
My previous therapist was hinting that my mother may have some form of narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder. I live with a mother who confuses me and is inconsistent. She makes me feel like I’m crazy, I doubt myself, I question my feelings and thoughts. I’m just sick and tired of being emotionally manipulated, guilt-trips, shaming, put down, over critical of me, ridiculing me, belittling me, then she plays the victim and says things like “I love you”, “I just want the best for you”. ONLY I should know what’s best for me, I deserve to be happy and have a life of my own.
Maybe another way to look at this is to substitute “difficult” for “toxic”. As in difficult people. I know some like that (including family members) but they’re capable of self reflection and change and some level of genune contrition at the end of the day.
My ex was so toxic and narcissistic she used to give me full blown panic/anxiety attacks. I've not had these in YEARS. That's how you know the difference imo. It brings the toxicity to a new level. With all the gaslighting, blame shifting, projection, manipulation, lying and ABUSE.
Yeah I fell in love with my best friend of five years who might be a fearful avoidant or vulnerable narcissist or both and while I was trying to figure out what was going on I literally experienced delerium, panic attacks, lost 35 lbs, most of my hair, one night might have had a heart attack, ended up pissing myself as a grown man. It was insanity. Have never wanted to end my life so badly after something. Completely rearranged my self perception, my trust in others, my self worth is gone. I don’t know that I even believe in God anymore after all this. Nothing feels like it matters anymore and when I see people I just see wickedness, potential pain. I know how dark people are because of where I’ve been and what sort of thoughts and insecurities cross my own mind. I can never fully trust someone ever again.
I'm so exhausted from dealing with toxic people, and downright narcissists, then trying to work out which is which, that in order to protect myself from becoming traumatised again, that I can't do it anymore. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a victim mentality but I have been diagnosed with PTSD and COMPLICATED GRIEF as a result of dealing with these people, so I have decided that my mental and physical health are too important to put at risk again. I'm tired of spending my life walking on eggshells around these people, lest they should be offended by our differing thoughts and opinions. Years of dealing with these people has left me with poor physical health and in a permanent state of fight, flight, freeze or fawn. Thank goodness I've a wonderful therapist who works really hard with me so that someday, I'll value myself again. It's a long, difficult, and slow process trying to regain my self worth. The problem with these negative personality types is they cause you such damage that you just don't feel safe anymore, especially when it comes to romantic relationships. It's impossible to regain trust. And that is what they steal from you, your ability to trust.
Invaluable information. That everyone needs to know. Any self aware person looking for constant self improvement mussst watch this. Very important video for emotional maturity. Respect doctor. This opened my mind in ways you can’t even imagine. Utterly grateful.
Exciting video Ramani , A year ago i took the no contact route, well i wouldnt say it didnt go well, but i missed her and sometimes you have to leave your comfort zone and go for what you want, Without knowing and having a huge ego, we might actually miss out on our soul mate all in the name of not settling for less, I know who i am, and at the same time i know what i want for me, so i did all i could to get her back, and I must say, it was the best decision i have ever made, we have been together again for over 7 months, yes marriage isnt always rosy, but i am lucky to have her, just as she is to have me, we compliment each other
its difficult to let go of someone you love, i am in a similar situation, and i do not know what else do to have him back, i have been dying inside, people actually think i am happy, i am not.
I feel your pain sister , after trying out the no contact experiment that failed miserably, i had to find other means, i had to reach out to a spiritual adviser, it was brilliant idea which i never thouht it was, but it worked wonders for me.
In my opinion narrsisism is devoid of empathy, entitlement dor themselves only, contemptuous & jealous of others. Others pain is their pleasure, love is nonexistent in the world of narsisim, while being so charming in convincing others of their awesomeness. My biological mother is a malignant narrsist. I've learned a great deal from you Dr. Ramani, going deep was just one of the ways I've survived as long as I have. Thank you so much, comfort & support for those surviving narrsisism ❤️🥀
Being devoid of empathy (which is a little different to having empathy but dismissing it in pursuit of their own agenda) is more akin to being a psychopath, the one thing that sets them apart from narcissists. All psychopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are psychopaths.
@@thesmallfrog7832 In the wild, it is often hard to tell. I once had a boss who just delighted in jerking your chain, ridiculous commands that were 'urgent' (nothing like it, just call you back from the field for nothing). Pretty sure he was a psychopath, he was way beyond any garden variety narc that I've had the displeasure to meet. It was like he was pulling the wings off butterflies, just because he could, and it was 'meh' something to do. Whereas a narc really does that stuff to feather their own power nest. Very different vibe.
People doesn't understand that other people have different options, raise their voices, and don't let others talk. That's also toxic. Thanks for sharing 🙏 blessings and peace to everyone
I recently lost an old friend when he suddenly went toxic. I’ll spare you the details, but they were sudden and painful and I no longer quite felt emotionally safe around him. The friendship was suddenly gone. This had happened once many years before with a different friend and in both cases I realized I had to get out. But in neither case can I really call the person a narcissist. The facts just don’t add up to that. They were not bad people, though they were each bad for me. This is in sharp contrast to the people I’ve known who were clearly narcissists and who saw me as prey. So I’ve been struggling with this very question for some time. Thank you for this video and the clarity it provides.
Thank you for all of your hard work making videos. These videos are very helpful when pondering life circumstances. I am working on my own toxic traits and healing.
It’s normal for relationships to encounter problems, but there’s always a way to navigate through them. My marriage faced major difficulties, but with the right support, my wife and I were able to solve our issues and fortify our bond. Solutions are possible if you’re committed to working together. Don’t give up-there’s always a solution.
I’m dealing with major relationship troubles and can’t stand the idea of losing her. I love and miss my partner deeply and am ready to do anything to bring her back. Any advice or support you could provide would be sincerely appreciated.
Parting ways with someone you deeply care about is never easy, but in my particular circumstance, I was aided by a spiritual mentor who averted the collapse of my marriage. Her name is Suzanne Ann Walters.
I'm grateful for your guidance. I'll quickly search for her online. Thanks. I'm hopeful that adopting this strategy will also bring me the results I desire; I miss her greatly.
I say it's OK to let go of any kind of difficult attachments. Be happy by yourself first, then be a careful gatekeeper of your life energy, to only let in kind, supportive people who reciprocate your friendship. Narcissists traumatize people. Toxic people irritate you. Good people care about you and enhance your life in some way. Everyone is at a different stage of evolution. Empathy is a higher state of consciousness so many people are not capable of giving that.
A person can also become toxic due to toxic people in their lives......a person can become toxic because they were never taught to not to people-please.....a person can become toxic when they were never taught to put their own boundaries in place......then we force ourselves to fit their mold in order to be accepted. Geez, what an eye-opener.😔
Toxicity is indeed very subjective due to your background, your own experiences in the past. Narcissism is objective due to the build-in-patterns, the needed ingredients. Whether it's toxic or Narcissism, listen to your gut!!!
For many decades I thought of my mother as 'just toxic'. But in more recent years I had decided that she pretty much ticks the boxes of a mixture between covert and communal narcissist. Everything she does is about external validation. The need for control is just off the scale (micromanages everybody and everything, including me). Always defaults to emotional blackmail to manipulate. As she is now elderly, she now throws in sulking and tantrums to get her way (possibly because I see through her emotional blackmail and it has no power over me). Constant martyr, all do-gooding is motivated to receive adulation. In over 60 years I don't think I have ever heard her apologise to anybody, or even express much genuine remorse. Everything and everybody must revolve around her. My younger sister is a more diluted, less extreme version of her, and has always been the favourite (her own little Mini Me).
❤️ sigh. I'm sorry you've experienced this. I idolized my mother for years before realizing that being her confidant and dolly wasn't actually family. I was the mini me for her but always felt not good enough. I finally recognized it. And when I tried to set boundaries or even say I've been hurt? Haha lol. The claws came out. It sucks. But everyone thinks she's amazing. It messes with your head.
@@ashanein Different I guess. You were the little extension or show pony she bred. When you failed to perform your tricks on command, you were sent to the slaughter house. Ironically, I was the 'good child' as example of her supposed parenting (the non-existent kind), obedient, well behaved, good grades. Acceptable for parading out to the world, at least back then. Behind closed doors I was apparently invisible for 99% of the time. Heck, there was at least one night I was left home alone (and I still to this day have no idea why) when I was about 8yo. The at-home cloak of invisibility worked a little too well I guess.
@@davinasquirrel7672 I had the identical experience growing up. I once found myself completely alone all of a sudden without having an inkling of where everyone went. My parents and brothers just decided to go to a movie, and they didn't say a word to me. They just completely forgot about me. I was also round about 8 years old.
Narcissistic behavior often includes something called “intermittent reinforcement”-also known as hot-cold behavior or on-off dynamics. This inconsistency can create an addictive cycle in neurotypicals, much like gambling. You’re constantly chasing the next “hit,” unsure of when-or if-it will come. Similarly, individuals with borderline personality traits might engage in idealization and devaluation cycles, along with approach/avoidance conflicts. This makes their behavior equally unhealthy and unsettling for the person on the receiving end. Borderlines sometimes fixate on a “favorite person,” becoming trauma bonded to them. This is similar to how narcissists seek validation, attention, and supply. These dynamics, whether with a narcissist or someone with BPD, can leave the other person feeling trapped, confused, and emotionally wrecked. Trauma bonding is devastating. I remember being so deeply hooked that I would have given up anything literally, even a kidney just to hear from my ex and feel some kind of connection. My nervous system was a mess, completely dysregulated from the constant highs and lows. If you’re dealing with suspicion of cheating or manipulation, it’s vital to prioritize your peace of mind. For me, seeking out the truth helped me break free. Sometimes, professional assistance can help you uncover what’s really going on. If you need support, reaching out to MetaspyClubLLC@gmail. com can provide guidance and clarity during a tough time. Breaking free from these toxic patterns is hard, but it’s possible. Recognizing the cycles and choosing to prioritize your well-being is the first step toward healing.
I love how you are so intelligent, professional, yet down to earth! Sometimes when I'm having a bad day I'll find one of your videos to listen to. It seems like you are talking directly to me. You have a Sense of humor that you sneak in from time to time which really helps. ❤
I am so grateful for this delineation of how a person everyone praises can feel toxic to someone else. And the third friend can be so overtly rude or awful that the fact that your friend doesn't stand up for you in any way, but rather, makes their choice to indulge them right in your presence is a deal-breaker. It changed (or solidified) how I felt about my friend.
Thank you for keeping it REAL! Dr. Ramani. Everyone is an expert these days. Another way that I define the difference between a narcissistic person and a toxic person... how long does it take to recover from their abuse or bad behavior? A toxic person can be easily avoided and healed from. A narcissistic person, maybe never. Professional help may be required, and the damage 💔 is SO EXTENSIVE! Dr. Ramani, I thank you always for your intelligent support. Also, I thank you for this video today because I can see where I can improve some of my own toxic behavior. (bagel-sneering) l love your down to earth practical explanations. ❤
After a year of painful self reflection I now know for me TOXIC is a person who expects me to be responsible for, and joins in their negative outlook. Especially those who feel angry hate should be shared. It's so hard to become uninvolved, it's like it's contagious...but for me this is my path of out up and away. Reclaiming smiling. ☺️
Im living with a roommate he fits the cake and everytime i call it out he gets sullen and angry and covertly makes it all my fault. I grew up in a psychopathic household and im struggling with this because my roommate minimizes everything and tries to smooth it over, and i can't tell where im asking too much. I moved in with him to escape family and now im wondering if ny judgment was off.
This was awesome, nice distinctions, thank you for making a video on this topic. While there’s def caution to be taken with both types, without this education one might just shutout everyone. It’s nice to learn discernment and balance. ❤❤
An alcoholic can be toxic, but not necessarily narcissistic. I’ve heard a lot of people say their partner was wonderful when they were sober, but they make the relationship miserable with their addiction.
This was really good. I feel like you described a great way to discriminate our issues vs. other people’s issues in a way that allows us to tune in to ourselves and our ability to notice when people feel “icky” to us. Labels can be weaponized unfairly but it doesn’t mean we have to ignore our own needs.
Thank you Dr Ramani. I think one can see the difference between toxic and narcissitic people when you look at the partner. If the partner hurts extrem, has changed a lot, has withdrawn and lost self esteem, it's high risk.
Wow you just described my ex partner and he never was rude in public but once you get behind closed doors he changed into a monster. No one believed that he was abusive to me because he did it when no one else was around. I'm very sorry for anyone who has to go through this type of ambient abuse because it's definitely toxic but I don't think I can say he's a narcissist but he definitely could be one. Getting away from him took a restraining order and leaving a long time horrible job. I survived and I'm still recovering.
I had no idea that my husband and I had a toxic relationship with my step MIL. I knew she was someone you had to be "careful" around but I didn't realize, at the time, some of the eggshell walking we did. After a long Mother's Day lecture from her telling us that we aren't children any more, she criticized and made assumptions about decisions relating to our home, our dog's healthcare, me going back to school/quitting my job, coffee choice, etc. She brought up his exwife taking advantage of him and questioned my role as a wife. She apologized over text and claimed she would work on communicating better and more often. We responded with boundaries and reminded her of her own words that we aren't children any more so please allow us to make adult decisions. She stopped responding after that and has not contacted us in over 1.5 years. Recently, she went online and posted that she is living her best life and unapologetically removing toxic people.
Now that the term is widely known, I often hear people call someone a "narcissist" just because that someone might be disagreeable or have strong personal boundaries. Completely misused.
Thank you, doctor Ramani, for this video and for all of your videos and your huge work on studying narcissists! that helped me sooo much! I'm healing from narcissistic abuse right now, going throw the hoovering stage, when a narcissist really wants to tie me back, but because of your videos I'm aware of it and trying so be strong. thank you so much!
Love the "asshole vibe" comment when exposing the difference of toxic people vs narcissistic. My father is an asshole vibe, my mother is a covert narcissist with a couole of those different flavors. I have used toxic to describe my mother at times because she's un- healthy. But I see the difference now. Thanks❤
Thank you, Doctor, your perspective is so helpful! I was beginning to wonder why I was surrounded by narcissistic people and then started to wonder if it was me. It's a relief to hear that we all have toxic traits, but it doesn't mean we are narcissists.
watched this a couple of times to clearly understand the differences. something i thought while watching the video, that has been mentioned in this channel before, was most times you have to listen to your gut instincts and when it tells you a situation is bad or person is manipulative you should seriously listen to it. Whenever i have dismissed such gut feelings I have made bad choices in people. reflecting on those choices, one thing that i realized was when i look back at such moments i could easily recall what my instinct told me that not to engage the other person and not completely believe their words and assume they have no ill-intention.
Been married to one.. too long.. too late to do anything at this point.. Im stronger now than ever.. I will tell you what is the most awful part of living and trying to navigate this life .. even worse than being disconnected.. given the silent treatment.. and the lies.. is that All therapists we saw as a couple ( except one and he was a psychiatrist) do not hold him accountable..for his inappropriate behavior.. his flirting, his texting other women while we are on vacation, not until I stepped forward and said " Im not sitting here listening to you make excuses for him" What he has done is wrong in a marriage" He is now 75 yo and has dementia. Im an RN and have lots of empathy.. not for him.. too late.. took a life time 40 years to figure it all out.. There is a sense of freedom at looking in from the outside..Narcissism is truly a mental illness.. not simply inappropriate behavior.
One problem i have with what is being said here is that, as we know, narcissistic people (grandiose variety) often make a great impression on people that they are not particularly close to. The people who are favorably impressed by them do not consider them narcissists. So what Im saying is that we cannot distinguish, as suggested here, between narc and toxic on the basis that one is relative and the other objective or absolute. Both will be viewed as toxic or narcissistic by some and not by others.
Yes, my exhusbands male best friends like going out and drinking with him - he is easy going, urbane, fun - when he is having fun and there are no expectations on him or he doesn't need to 'care' or be responsible. How he treats his wife/ex wife children has no bearing on their relationship - in fact it reinforces their relationship because he will abdicate his childcare responsibilities and dump children at a moments notice to drink with friends.
I agree with this video, there truly is a difference. I have been in touch with people who can be toxic but are not a narcissist. For instance, people who are too perfectionistic and then try to get you to be that way too.
Avoiding that person as much as possible daily. Always enjoy my own space where I really found my peace. I'm digging out of it as I speak. All done and wow am I paying the humility and everything else that comes with the escape.😊😊
Every holiday has been horrible for ten years. There are times I can't even think, work ,eat or pray. It's a narcissistic person . It took me ten years to figure out what was wrong .Im always apologizing just to stop him from being mad after he has been mean for no reason. There are even times when he yells "say you're sorry" a million times. It's over I can't take it another day. I need my mind to be clear so I can focus on my goals.
Six of one, half dozen of another. I'm not going to worry about semantics concerning people who consistently ruin my day with their self-centeredness. I'm just going to stay away from them whenever possible. In the world of professionals, I'm sure there are reasons to be very specific about a diagnosis. For one thing, you don't want to be labeled as someone who doesn't know their stuff, or who is over-zealous, or who creates a furor over a trendy topic. But for the rest of us, in everyday life, I for one am perfectly comfortable with saying toxic or narcissistic because I'm not diagnosing someone. I am just using the words as general comments about how a person conducts themselves in my presence.
Dr. Ramani, I'm a 55 year old man with adult children with a passive narcissistic mother (I believe those are the correct terms). She was, or is, an extreme parental alienator, and now is launching new attacks, if you will, and it is devastating me. I confess, I have been fundamentally bed ridden for nearly a month now. I live alone, never have visitors, and cannot see any pathway out... I am in immense pain. Thank you for your videos, bits & pieces of them offer me moments of solace.
@@ThanksHermione I just listened to a portion of one of her videos, and it seems she is calling actual victims of this nefarious behavior as attempting to pretend being victimized. Where confusion lays, so there does the nefarious in spirit. Absolutely awful stuff.
With my MIL, I can handle her in small doses, but with frequent exposure, I feel so much dread and anxiety. I feel like there is a coil deep in my chest/ stomach. Then it takes months of no contact to feel normal again. And I ruminate so much I can't sleep some nights.
My sense is that whether toxicity or narcissism they are both on their respective spectrums, and there is probably a spectrum ranging from some kind of toxicity to some expressions of narcissism as well. Also, there are people who display forms of toxicity at sometimes and outright narcissistic behavior at others depending on what they are experiencing at that season of their life, and what effect stress Has on that person.
Thank you, Dr Ramani, for clarifying that topic. Now the challenge question: - Was the character portrayed by actress Meryl Streep in "The Devil Wears Prada" just toxic or a full fledged Narcissist?
If you bite it and you die, it's poison. If it bites you and you die, it's venom. Poison is something you have to eat or inhale. Venom is delivered directly into your bloodstream.
From my understanding toxic people can irritate, frustrate or anger us but we're able to walk away from the situation. Narcissistic people are all of these things, we can't walk away from them or the situation. The situation snowballs and no matter what we do it becomes worse.
This is possibly the most valuable video I have listened to since I finally realized a few months ago what was happening to me and went no contact with my mother. I've been doing this for 58 years to try to maintain that relationship without realizing WHY. The shame and guilt I've been feeling for so long......defined. Thank you Dr Ramani. Thank you ❤
What makes someone “toxic” is when you catch that person “ego boosting”. Everyone boosts their ego, but the degree of this varies and the more someone does it, the more toxic they come off.
What you are describing is my mom and my ex are definitely narcissistic. Others I have wondered about, maybe just narcissistic characteristics in them. Thank you again
...but you still got a gift. You still have a family. I miss those events, however trying they may be on Thanksgiving (especially) the arena, if you will, that still knows they are a unit. Of any sort. God bless them wherever they are.
My one accused me of attacking him set up .i am falling apart solicitor not good ,losing will to even get out of bed ,He is now living with new supply,
Good discussion. I have a friend who’s got empathy, but I walk on eggshells around him. I have to be sooo careful at how I talk to him or he’ll suddenly get mad at me. In fact, he quit talking to me over a year ago and I have no idea why. He lives next door. This is like the 4th time he’s done this to me, just stops talking. Then one day, I’m okay again. And I will bend over backwards trying to nod and smile and not set him off, and out of the blue he loses it. This past year my feelings were hurt, but at least I am no longer emotionally exhausted by it. He’s not quite narcissistic, but maybe we just don’t work well together. Maybe we’re just a toxic mix.
Toxic people are very quick to roll their eyes at anyone who "has a problem" with their rude behavior. They'll shrug their shoulders, too, and say that person is way too sensitive.
@@amandaliverpool3374 Exactly 👍... I tried to answer you on my post and even here, but both were gone immediatly 😏 Just got a phone call from my daughter that did not last 3 minutes for she got directly into playing the victim, blaming me 🙄 Hope things are a bit better now for you. 🙏💕🫂
@amandaliverpool3374 Exactly 👍 I've tried to answer you on my post and even here several times, but without luck 😏 And now I just got a phone call from my daughter that did not last 3 minutes because she got directly into blaming mode 🙄 Exhausting... Hope it goes a bit better now with you? 🙏💕🫂
Would you say.. for example : a mother and daughter agreed to sit down and talk about the childhood trauma and recent years. The daughter starts off with “ I feel like you never cared about being a parent and protecting me “- gave her examples of a few very bad things that happened, and the mother totally dismisses it and says it didn’t happen that it wasn’t true. When it quickly escalated into an argument the daughter accused her of dismissal and gaslighting, the mother went straight for bringing up the daughters teenage drug issues and past mistakes, then when the daughtter is totally breaking down and drowning in tears - the mother started grinning and acting condescending. But then in front of other people(family/frienda/professionals) she’d act like the victim and cry and say things like “I can’t believe my own child would do it to me” Would you say the mother is toxic or narcissistic ???
Thanks for actually replying 🙏🏻 A little follow up question: How does one stay sane when the narcissistic mother is totally pulling all the strings she can to ruin the child’s life, but they can’t go no contact for a very specific reason?
@ I don’t know! Try thinking of your emotions as electrical currents. Remember the dimmer light switch. We can turn it up full or we can slowly dim it.
I finally remembered the word I used to use in the '80s to describe narcissism before I knew the word narcissist. it was "Conformity" It was such a big deal in the 80's and 90's. I always knew the people who conformed were conforming to the cult of the narcissists... I always knew the behavior was so sick and wrong, we had other words to describe it before the word narcissist came along... I almost wonder if conformity is better bc it refers to the enablers and that enablers are where the narcissists get their power, so maybe it's more important to focus on the enablers? bring back the word "conformity"??? Thank you 👍❤❤❤
That's another good one, feeling you have to conform to me means they're narcissistic. Toxic people will just be toxic but you don't feel you have to conform to their views.
Being around toxic people might be annoying, but narcissists take it to another level,they mess with your mind and make you doubt yourself.
They sure do! They love the sound of their own voice and think the world owes them.
True but so does a thief who isn’t a narcissist!
Spot on, its defo another level of abuse, and it’s insidious and unhealthy!
@ flying monkeys 🙉 come to mind.
Im actually thinking mi is a malignant.....I thought he was a covert... but the hurt and damage he has caused......definitely cruel
For me, the key difference that I've noticed is that you just can't reach a narcissist. The level of selfishness feels surreal, and talking to them resolves nothing on any level. You start wishing you had a camera at all times because it feels like no one would believe what they've said or done. And they seem to live in some type of parallel universe that keeps shifting depending upon the day and time. Also, narcissists can just come across as toxic when you don't really have to deal with them much or very often. It's best to avoid both narcs and toxic people as much as humanly possible.
I'm ready to avoid both types. After being a people-pleaser for years, and having had both a narcissistic mother and first husband, I'm a little raw. I pushed out of the people-pleasing, but am told I'm empathic, sort of hyper-sensitive. I value people a great deal, but some are just exhausting for me. Not willing to endure more. I'm all here for those easy-going and forgiving.
I come from a family with many narcissistic and I would say, psychopathic traits. I have moved 10,000 km's away now to a country that it's very difficult for them to get in to. I went home last Summer for a few days, just so I could keep the peace and keep them from disturbing my new life, which they would do. - If anyone thinks you can go completely no contact with these types of people you have no idea the lengths some will go to. These people, and their friends have called National radio stations before in relation to some things. But using every means necessary to find someone, including governmental services and ruining someone's new job by harassing your employer with requests would be nothing to them. Really nothing. I don't come from America so the laws in my country are different but also coming any distance to spend the day banging on your door until you open would also be nothing to them. - Anyway, just being home for a day reminded me how hellish it is, or why I used to have that people pleasing tendency. You have a few hours at most where they treated you civilly, even if having not seen you for a year or a few years. After that, the gaslighting, the relentless, utterly relentless manipulation of every ounce of your being takes place. Like they really see you as a robot to do their bidding and if you do not, you are the worst person that ever lived. I got a pain in my side and decided to just stay in my friends houses, and one other family members house who is decent enough as much as possible. Unfortunately that family member also has a daughter who has identical traits to my parents. All bullies. Anyway, when I'm far far away from them all for many years, I now have toned back on my people pleasing. I would say do whatever you can to get away from these sort of vampiric people. Do the grey rock method, and talking about the weather, or any benign subjects with them if you have to deal with them for anything. My dad now actually doesn't insult me anymore when he greets me. He's now elevated to calling me horse. When younger, it was just insults. As the good doctor above says, you only have peace from these people after they die.
🙌🏾
I don’t blame you. Mental health is important!
yes for me too
@@AntonoconI'm SO sorry for You and what You been true snd wats still going on into Your life. I really hope that You can get a normal life some day.
I know by my own experiences living 10 years in a relationship whit a covert narcissist until I discarded and abrupt left him year 2014. After that he constantly harrased me and even his little army of Flying Monkeys for many years until I get rid of them and the narcissist by doing NC to everyone of them and of course moved far away from that town. But absolutely not as far away as You have been forced to 😢
Then the covert narcissist died last February year 2023 in multiple of diagnosis of his alcoholism. Alone in his flat and was found 2 days later of his sister cause his CEO at his workplace was missing him.
I should lie to You if I say I felt sorrow or grief EVEN I admit its pity cause of his 6 children as are alive. The children have mixed feelings to their father ... I only feel reliefed. Those children are grown up and between the age of 21 years old up ino 36 years old. They have also been harassed and abused by their father. Good for Me is that those children are not mine cause I met the narcissist when we where adults.
Anyhow - now I'm healed (almost...) and living a calm and peaceful life. I'm still singel but that is a choise I have done cause I want som space to live by my self a couple of years more until I feel more sure of my own behavior that I have to work on and change - my ppl and codepency behavior (emotional) and plus that I'm a big/Great empath IS a big attraction to toxic people and narcissist = A BIG Warning Bell I think for me and I MUST change my personality and behavior with that until I even think about to go into a New relationship 😎
Hope You got Calm and Peace for now and further in Your life and path 🤗
Take Care 💞
My husband is covert and he isn’t vulnerable whatsoever. He is charming socially but evil behind closed doors. He knows what he is doing. He is manipulative, controlling, argumentative, selfish, egotistical, plays victim when it suits. Oh, and the long silences at a time, just cruel!The chaos and confusion is awful. The victim is the vunerable one.
Yes. Evil behind closed doors
I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this. When you decide to stay their behavior is exasperated and exhausting! 😢
Vulnerable here is being used in a clinical sense. Watching her talks on covert vulnerable narcissism might help clarify the meaning in this context verses everyday meaning of the word.
Yes, and you sit 20 yrs on your own.
And the non worker , takes it all .$$
It's completely cruel.
Yes I'm married to one of those - divorcing him is a nightmare
All narcissists are toxic people. Not all toxic people are narcissists. I sometimes use the word toxic to describe narcissistic people because I feel like writing one short quick word "toxic". It takes more than 11 toxic traits to diagnose a toxic person as a narcissist. Love this much needed video. Love the part you mention about pay attention to how you feel, you can feel a bit uncomfortable and annoyed by toxic people. While you'd feel confuse, self doubt, self shame, self sacrifice, feeling extreme anger, feeling rage, feeling gaslighted, feeling the strong sense of creep out, there is this gut wrenching feeling with any narcissists and psychopaths because they are very twisted, delusional, and very manipulative. The gut instinct knows.
Exactly toxic people may be bad and annoying but narcissist ones are pure evil scheming and manipulative creatures
@@azkamahmood8222’So glad you used the term “ creatures”. No human being thinks and does the heinous, malicious things that narcissists come up with, consistently. They are pure evil, demonic. ‘Wolves in sheep’s clothing, and worse yet, wolves often travel in packs.
@daleenreed9560 they are shameless predators and will use every tactic to control their supply
I'm also glad to find people like you who can understand the level of evil we are dealing with
Utter disgust is that they use religion and moral obligations to blackmail and trap
Your first 2 sentences said EVERYTHING that needs to be said clearly and concisely. 👏👏👏👏👏 Take a bow! 💐
I think two big “tests” as to figuring out if a person is toxic or a narcissist, is the ability to introspect and experience remorse. Even the most toxic of people have at least a little shred of these traits. They might be stingy with their expression, but they are present. A narcissist, however, does not possess these traits and truly cannot comprehend the impact they have on other people. They ALWAYS have a justification for their behaviour and therefore do not ever experience true remorse.
The real thing is, It's very hard to tell if someone feels truly remorse or they are just pretending
@@tatianaa.3694omg yes i fell for that fake remorse once and took her back in. It was absolutely convincing at first. But 2 years later she did the same terrible stuff again and absolutely has no remorse for it. Only confirming that she never ever felt the true remorse or guilt it took to come out it clean. This time even more worse and gruesome. Finally confirmed she’s an outright covert narcissist through pain, time and shame. Destroying one’s soul is an understatement.
I once waited 10 years for my former narc to apologize for something so obviously needing an apology. It never came. I thought a moment would come to them when they realized this. Nope. It never dawned on her.
@@tatianaa.3694yes and we can put ourselves in great danger if we believe them and let them back into our lives - best case scenario they just repeat the more benign maddening behaviors - toxic ones - worse case scenario they amo them up and seemingly get satisfaction out of it
Well said.
In my experience, I’ve found that people who engage in toxic behaviors are capable of dialog about their behavior, and self-reflection, and learning, in ways that are impossible for a narcissist.
And they are better at accepting boundaries when you need to set them in order to keep engaging with them. A narcissist is incapable of respecting the boundaries of others, is angered by them, and sometimes derives pleasure from violating them.
One of my best friends has OCD. Sometimes his behavior is toxic. He is self-aware (narcissists aren’t) and he has the capacity to listen to feedback constructively (narcissists don’t). He does not have the capacity to completely rein in the toxic behavior. He’s working with the brain he has, not the brain he wishes he had. And when he is in the weeds, I limit my time around him and check in from a distance, because I am a narcissistic abuse survivor.
Because of my life experiences (and with the help of quality therapy) I can clearly see the difference.
It is worth learning to work around the behavior of my sometimes toxic friend. It is not worth trying to do the same with a narcissist.
You’re right. My mum is a narcissist, she never does anything wrong. It’s always everyone but her.
She makes me sick
Toxic relationships are harmful because it’s all just about one person. It’s all about their selfish interests at your sacrifice and expense.
Exactly
My wife tells me: “I know I made inappropriate comments but I promise I wasn’t trying to be mean.” Also “you know how hard it is for me to apologize?! I wish you would just get over it and sense that I am sorry.”
Not even sure what to say to that… I just remember Dr. Ramani saying use the DEEP method because there is no point of trying explain why both of the statements above are horrible and there is no accountability.
Remember the 3 reasons to leave ASAP: emotional &/or physical abuse, lying & denying
You’re not a mind reader. How can you just “tell when she feels sorry”…that’s just lazy and toxic!! That’s definitely just an excuse.
@@REBEKAHJOHNSON-lh6xh yep my thoughts exactly. I had to explain to her why saying sorry is important, its so the other person can see that you are taking accountability for your mistake so the other person can move forward.
Deflection of blame; immaturity and insecurity!
What does DEEP stand for again
Just because ofher people don’t think they’re toxic, doesn’t mean they’re not narcissistic. Looots of cases where people have a great time with the narcissist because they’re great to them, really fun, charismatic and great company.
Just what I was thinking. Someone might be toxic at work but full blown narc at home. It's a thin line.
EXACTLY.
Thank you for this, Dr Ramani! There is a huge distinction between a toxic person and a narcissist. Just because we don't like being around someone because their behavior bothers us, doesn't necessarily mean they're a narcissist. The term "narcissist" has a particular meaning, and it is a word that is thrown around alot casually these days, by those who don't truly understand what it is. It does a disservice to those of us whose lives have been shattered by a narcissist!
Exactly!
And sometimes someone who we may think is toxic is really a narcissist, but we don't know them well enough to make that conclusion yet. And maybe we never will, because we distance ourselves due to their toxicity.
@@BonnieJean4578 That's right, we don't have to stick around to find out! There's certain types of people it's better NOT to get to know any further.
You are such a treasure. I’m coparenting with a malignant sort and most people just hear me describing a toxic person. But to be their target, and to endure relentless bullying is so hard to convey. So thank you for sharing your knowledge and understanding. 💝🥳
Thank you for clarifying this. The internet is teeming with people calling everyone else a narcissist. They often don’t bother to look inward to see their own toxic behaviors.
Exactly, being raised by a psychopath I had narcissistic learned behaviors. After studying narcissism I noticed sometimes what came out of my mouth wasn’t me and it was extremely inappropriate! The good thing I have learned to grow. Not saying if I get around a narcissist I may give em a bit of their own medicine and run like a bear is gonna chase me-
I’ve seen several questionable women claim their ex was a narcissist and that’s why they broke up. But these women often won’t explain what the ex boyfriend/husband did wrong that show he was a narcissist. I feel that word has often been used casually without knowing what it really means.
@@SherryTomlinson-r2ygiving them the taste of their own medicine to a narc. Is usually discard and abandonment as far as I know. Those 2 are their kryptonites or arch nemesis. What kind of medicine did you give them? I’m intrigued
@ ask questions I know the truth to. Tell em they are lying they double up call me a name or project themselves on me. I tell them being they feel that way about me . And I’m gone. Does it phase em no! So I run.
I know this is off topic but Dr Ramani has such warm and bright eyes!! ❤
This was very helpful! It seems to me, that when it comes to forgiveness, it’s easier to forgive those who are toxic, with a live and let live attitude, but much more difficult to forgive a narcissist, because there is only the false self to be acknowledged.
"Toxic for ME"!!!
Thank you for posting this particular topic!!!!!!
"...and every other kind of 'IST' you can think of..." Dr. Ramani knows how to express a thought in such a precise, relatable way. She's a master in the area of effective communication. Thank you, Dr. Ramani!😊❤
Im LOVING the longer more elaborate videos! Thank you Dr. Ramani for all your work❤
My previous therapist was hinting that my mother may have some form of narcissism or narcissistic personality disorder. I live with a mother who confuses me and is inconsistent. She makes me feel like I’m crazy, I doubt myself, I question my feelings and thoughts. I’m just sick and tired of being emotionally manipulated, guilt-trips, shaming, put down, over critical of me, ridiculing me, belittling me, then she plays the victim and says things like “I love you”, “I just want the best for you”. ONLY I should know what’s best for me, I deserve to be happy and have a life of my own.
My dad's behavior and I got sick of it also. Then I almost married one. It effected my health drastically. Finally got out.
Work on getting your own place.
@@TheWritersAcademy I've tried, but she would shut me down, guilt-trip me, and shame me, as if I was committing some crime or sin.
@ yes true, but she is already doing that.
@ You deserve to be loved and staying around this all the time may destroy you.
Maybe another way to look at this is to substitute “difficult” for “toxic”. As in difficult people. I know some like that (including family members) but they’re capable of self reflection and change and some level of genune contrition at the end of the day.
My ex was so toxic and narcissistic she used to give me full blown panic/anxiety attacks. I've not had these in YEARS. That's how you know the difference imo. It brings the toxicity to a new level. With all the gaslighting, blame shifting, projection, manipulation, lying and ABUSE.
Yeah I fell in love with my best friend of five years who might be a fearful avoidant or vulnerable narcissist or both and while I was trying to figure out what was going on I literally experienced delerium, panic attacks, lost 35 lbs, most of my hair, one night might have had a heart attack, ended up pissing myself as a grown man. It was insanity. Have never wanted to end my life so badly after something. Completely rearranged my self perception, my trust in others, my self worth is gone. I don’t know that I even believe in God anymore after all this. Nothing feels like it matters anymore and when I see people I just see wickedness, potential pain. I know how dark people are because of where I’ve been and what sort of thoughts and insecurities cross my own mind. I can never fully trust someone ever again.
I'm so exhausted from dealing with toxic people, and downright narcissists, then trying to work out which is which, that in order to protect myself from becoming traumatised again, that I can't do it anymore. Don't get me wrong, I don't have a victim mentality but I have been diagnosed with PTSD and COMPLICATED GRIEF as a result of dealing with these people, so I have decided that my mental and physical health are too important to put at risk again. I'm tired of spending my life walking on eggshells around these people, lest they should be offended by our differing thoughts and opinions. Years of dealing with these people has left me with poor physical health and in a permanent state of fight, flight, freeze or fawn. Thank goodness I've a wonderful therapist who works really hard with me so that someday, I'll value myself again. It's a long, difficult, and slow process trying to regain my self worth. The problem with these negative personality types is they cause you such damage that you just don't feel safe anymore, especially when it comes to romantic relationships. It's impossible to regain trust. And that is what they steal from you, your ability to trust.
Yeah this is where I’m at. My self worth is completely gone. I will never trust again. Ever. Never
Invaluable information. That everyone needs to know. Any self aware person looking for constant self improvement mussst watch this. Very important video for emotional maturity. Respect doctor. This opened my mind in ways you can’t even imagine. Utterly grateful.
Exciting video Ramani , A year ago i took the no contact route, well i wouldnt say it didnt go well, but i missed her and sometimes you have to leave your comfort zone and go for what you want, Without knowing and having a huge ego, we might actually miss out on our soul mate all in the name of not settling for less, I know who i am, and at the same time i know what i want for me, so i did all i could to get her back, and I must say, it was the best decision i have ever made, we have been together again for over 7 months, yes marriage isnt always rosy, but i am lucky to have her, just as she is to have me, we compliment each other
its difficult to let go of someone you love, i am in a similar situation, and i do not know what else do to have him back, i have been dying inside, people actually think i am happy, i am not.
I feel your pain sister , after trying out the no contact experiment that failed miserably, i had to find other means, i had to reach out to a spiritual adviser, it was brilliant idea which i never thouht it was, but it worked wonders for me.
Amazing, how did you get a spiritual counselor, and how do i reach him/ her?
Her name is Shelly renee white , and she is a great spiritual counselor who can bring back your ex.
Thank you for this valuable information, i just looked her up now online. impressive
In my opinion narrsisism is devoid of empathy, entitlement dor themselves only, contemptuous & jealous of others. Others pain is their pleasure, love is nonexistent in the world of narsisim, while being so charming in convincing others of their awesomeness. My biological mother is a malignant narrsist. I've learned a great deal from you Dr. Ramani, going deep was just one of the ways I've survived as long as I have. Thank you so much, comfort & support for those surviving narrsisism ❤️🥀
Being devoid of empathy (which is a little different to having empathy but dismissing it in pursuit of their own agenda) is more akin to being a psychopath, the one thing that sets them apart from narcissists. All psychopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are psychopaths.
Yep. I think delineation is important. Anything that brings clarity and awareness instead of confusion in this space, so you know where you stand!
@@thesmallfrog7832 In the wild, it is often hard to tell. I once had a boss who just delighted in jerking your chain, ridiculous commands that were 'urgent' (nothing like it, just call you back from the field for nothing). Pretty sure he was a psychopath, he was way beyond any garden variety narc that I've had the displeasure to meet.
It was like he was pulling the wings off butterflies, just because he could, and it was 'meh' something to do. Whereas a narc really does that stuff to feather their own power nest. Very different vibe.
People doesn't understand that other people have different options, raise their voices, and don't let others talk. That's also toxic. Thanks for sharing 🙏 blessings and peace to everyone
I recently lost an old friend when he suddenly went toxic. I’ll spare you the details, but they were sudden and painful and I no longer quite felt emotionally safe around him. The friendship was suddenly gone. This had happened once many years before with a different friend and in both cases I realized I had to get out.
But in neither case can I really call the person a narcissist. The facts just don’t add up to that. They were not bad people, though they were each bad for me. This is in sharp contrast to the people I’ve known who were clearly narcissists and who saw me as prey.
So I’ve been struggling with this very question for some time. Thank you for this video and the clarity it provides.
Thanks
Thank you for all of your hard work making videos. These videos are very helpful when pondering life circumstances. I am working on my own toxic traits and healing.
It’s normal for relationships to encounter problems, but there’s always a way to navigate through them. My marriage faced major difficulties, but with the right support, my wife and I were able to solve our issues and fortify our bond. Solutions are possible if you’re committed to working together. Don’t give up-there’s always a solution.
I’m dealing with major relationship troubles and can’t stand the idea of losing her. I love and miss my partner deeply and am ready to do anything to bring her back. Any advice or support you could provide would be sincerely appreciated.
Parting ways with someone you deeply care about is never easy, but in my particular circumstance, I was aided by a spiritual mentor who averted the collapse of my marriage. Her name is Suzanne Ann Walters.
I'm grateful for your guidance. I'll quickly search for her online. Thanks. I'm hopeful that adopting this strategy will also bring me the results I desire; I miss her greatly.
You should.
Not always.
I say it's OK to let go of any kind of difficult attachments. Be happy by yourself first, then be a careful gatekeeper of your life energy, to only let in kind, supportive people who reciprocate your friendship. Narcissists traumatize people. Toxic people irritate you. Good people care about you and enhance your life in some way. Everyone is at a different stage of evolution. Empathy is a higher state of consciousness so many people are not capable of giving that.
Well put. And it can be really hard to discern what validation seeking or entitlement looks like in a covert narc.
Carolyn, I want to frame your comment or stitch it on a pillow!! Thank you 🙏
Your one of the best teachers!! I love watching your videos!!❤
A person can also become toxic due to toxic people in their lives......a person can become toxic because they were never taught to not to people-please.....a person can become toxic when they were never taught to put their own boundaries in place......then we force ourselves to fit their mold in order to be accepted. Geez, what an eye-opener.😔
Awesome video! Thank you for talking about cake & it's ingredients! The frosting & flavoring , etc... I hope this goes viral.
Toxicity is indeed very subjective due to your background, your own experiences in the past.
Narcissism is objective due to the build-in-patterns, the needed ingredients.
Whether it's toxic or Narcissism, listen to your gut!!!
You're spot on 🎯 👍 💕
I agree! I don't care what the label is! LOL
@@amandaliverpool3374 Thanks, Amanda 🙏💕🫂
@@twovirginiacats3753 In fact, no one wants to be labeled!
@@amandaliverpool3374 Thanks, Amanda 🙏💕🫂
"Can not wrapp your head around their behavio" (in regards to narcissistic). I have learned that is a gut instinct to be VERY cautious.
For many decades I thought of my mother as 'just toxic'. But in more recent years I had decided that she pretty much ticks the boxes of a mixture between covert and communal narcissist. Everything she does is about external validation. The need for control is just off the scale (micromanages everybody and everything, including me). Always defaults to emotional blackmail to manipulate. As she is now elderly, she now throws in sulking and tantrums to get her way (possibly because I see through her emotional blackmail and it has no power over me). Constant martyr, all do-gooding is motivated to receive adulation. In over 60 years I don't think I have ever heard her apologise to anybody, or even express much genuine remorse. Everything and everybody must revolve around her. My younger sister is a more diluted, less extreme version of her, and has always been the favourite (her own little Mini Me).
❤️ sigh. I'm sorry you've experienced this. I idolized my mother for years before realizing that being her confidant and dolly wasn't actually family. I was the mini me for her but always felt not good enough. I finally recognized it. And when I tried to set boundaries or even say I've been hurt? Haha lol. The claws came out. It sucks. But everyone thinks she's amazing. It messes with your head.
@DrRamani-o3j Impersonator, clearly. Get a life or purpose. You suck.
@@ashanein Different I guess. You were the little extension or show pony she bred. When you failed to perform your tricks on command, you were sent to the slaughter house.
Ironically, I was the 'good child' as example of her supposed parenting (the non-existent kind), obedient, well behaved, good grades. Acceptable for parading out to the world, at least back then. Behind closed doors I was apparently invisible for 99% of the time. Heck, there was at least one night I was left home alone (and I still to this day have no idea why) when I was about 8yo. The at-home cloak of invisibility worked a little too well I guess.
@@davinasquirrel7672 I had the identical experience growing up. I once found myself completely alone all of a sudden without having an inkling of where everyone went. My parents and brothers just decided to go to a movie, and they didn't say a word to me. They just completely forgot about me. I was also round about 8 years old.
@@davinasquirrel7672that's so isolating and damaging to do to a child!! ffs
Little you and Big you both deserve so much better. ❤️
Narcissistic behavior often includes something called “intermittent reinforcement”-also known as hot-cold behavior or on-off dynamics. This inconsistency can create an addictive cycle in neurotypicals, much like gambling. You’re constantly chasing the next “hit,” unsure of when-or if-it will come. Similarly, individuals with borderline personality traits might engage in idealization and devaluation cycles, along with approach/avoidance conflicts. This makes their behavior equally unhealthy and unsettling for the person on the receiving end.
Borderlines sometimes fixate on a “favorite person,” becoming trauma bonded to them. This is similar to how narcissists seek validation, attention, and supply. These dynamics, whether with a narcissist or someone with BPD, can leave the other person feeling trapped, confused, and emotionally wrecked.
Trauma bonding is devastating. I remember being so deeply hooked that I would have given up anything literally, even a kidney just to hear from my ex and feel some kind of connection. My nervous system was a mess, completely dysregulated from the constant highs and lows.
If you’re dealing with suspicion of cheating or manipulation, it’s vital to prioritize your peace of mind. For me, seeking out the truth helped me break free. Sometimes, professional assistance can help you uncover what’s really going on. If you need support, reaching out to MetaspyClubLLC@gmail. com can provide guidance and clarity during a tough time.
Breaking free from these toxic patterns is hard, but it’s possible. Recognizing the cycles and choosing to prioritize your well-being is the first step toward healing.
I have no contact with my narcissistic dad, so he can't pull this crap with me. I win!
I love how you are so intelligent, professional, yet down to earth! Sometimes when I'm having a bad day I'll find one of your videos to listen to. It seems like you are talking directly to me. You have a Sense of humor that you sneak in from time to time which really helps. ❤
I appreciate your channel so much. It has helped me with understanding myself and my family dynamic in so many healing ways. Thank you!
I am so grateful for this delineation of how a person everyone praises can feel toxic to someone else. And the third friend can be so overtly rude or awful that the fact that your friend doesn't stand up for you in any way, but rather, makes their choice to indulge them right in your presence is a deal-breaker. It changed (or solidified) how I felt about my friend.
Thank you for keeping it REAL! Dr. Ramani. Everyone
is an expert these days. Another way that I define the difference between a narcissistic person and a toxic person... how long does it take to recover from their abuse or bad behavior? A toxic person can be easily avoided and healed from. A narcissistic person, maybe never. Professional help may be required, and the damage 💔 is SO EXTENSIVE!
Dr. Ramani, I thank you always for your intelligent support. Also, I thank you for this video today because I can see where I can improve some of my own toxic behavior. (bagel-sneering) l love your
down to earth practical explanations. ❤
After a year of painful self reflection I now know for me TOXIC is a person who expects me to be responsible for, and joins in their negative outlook.
Especially those who feel angry hate should be shared.
It's so hard to become uninvolved, it's like it's contagious...but for me this is my path of out up and away.
Reclaiming smiling. ☺️
Im living with a roommate he fits the cake and everytime i call it out he gets sullen and angry and covertly makes it all my fault. I grew up in a psychopathic household and im struggling with this because my roommate minimizes everything and tries to smooth it over, and i can't tell where im asking too much. I moved in with him to escape family and now im wondering if ny judgment was off.
It was off. Move
@@queenana9 not always easy to move.. try not to react and take the asshole personally. Remember it’s not you - so hard to do I know!
This was awesome, nice distinctions, thank you for making a video on this topic. While there’s def caution to be taken with both types, without this education one might just shutout everyone. It’s nice to learn discernment and balance. ❤❤
An alcoholic can be toxic, but not necessarily narcissistic. I’ve heard a lot of people say their partner was wonderful when they were sober, but they make the relationship miserable with their addiction.
This was really good. I feel like you described a great way to discriminate our issues vs. other people’s issues in a way that allows us to tune in to ourselves and our ability to notice when people feel “icky” to us. Labels can be weaponized unfairly but it doesn’t mean we have to ignore our own needs.
Thank you Dr Ramani.
I think one can see the difference between toxic and narcissitic people when you look at the partner. If the partner hurts extrem, has changed a lot, has withdrawn and lost self esteem, it's high risk.
Wow you just described my ex partner and he never was rude in public but once you get behind closed doors he changed into a monster. No one believed that he was abusive to me because he did it when no one else was around. I'm very sorry for anyone who has to go through this type of ambient abuse because it's definitely toxic but I don't think I can say he's a narcissist but he definitely could be one. Getting away from him took a restraining order and leaving a long time horrible job. I survived and I'm still recovering.
Dr. Ramani strikes again! Thanks for posting
I had no idea that my husband and I had a toxic relationship with my step MIL. I knew she was someone you had to be "careful" around but I didn't realize, at the time, some of the eggshell walking we did. After a long Mother's Day lecture from her telling us that we aren't children any more, she criticized and made assumptions about decisions relating to our home, our dog's healthcare, me going back to school/quitting my job, coffee choice, etc. She brought up his exwife taking advantage of him and questioned my role as a wife. She apologized over text and claimed she would work on communicating better and more often. We responded with boundaries and reminded her of her own words that we aren't children any more so please allow us to make adult decisions. She stopped responding after that and has not contacted us in over 1.5 years. Recently, she went online and posted that she is living her best life and unapologetically removing toxic people.
Congratulations. 😆
Like her children!
Now that the term is widely known, I often hear people call someone a "narcissist" just because that someone might be disagreeable or have strong personal boundaries. Completely misused.
We can only ever meet other people as far as they are able to meet themselves ☺️👍💓
Thank you, doctor Ramani, for this video and for all of your videos and your huge work on studying narcissists! that helped me sooo much! I'm healing from narcissistic abuse right now, going throw the hoovering stage, when a narcissist really wants to tie me back, but because of your videos I'm aware of it and trying so be strong. thank you so much!
That green color looks so good on you!
Thank you once again for sharing your empowering knowledge.😊🧡🍁
Love the "asshole vibe" comment when exposing the difference of toxic people vs narcissistic.
My father is an asshole vibe, my mother is a covert narcissist with a couole of those different flavors.
I have used toxic to describe my mother at times because she's un- healthy.
But I see the difference now. Thanks❤
Thank you, Doctor, your perspective is so helpful! I was beginning to wonder why I was surrounded by narcissistic people and then started to wonder if it was me. It's a relief to hear that we all have toxic traits, but it doesn't mean we are narcissists.
Wow! One of your best ever (in my opinion)❣️😌thank you, Dr. Ramani for making this distinction. Feeling a sense of relief
So accurate. Getting tired of ppl calling everyone and everybody narcissistic, yet having no clue about a toll it takes on one’s wellbeing
watched this a couple of times to clearly understand the differences. something i thought while watching the video, that has been mentioned in this channel before, was most times you have to listen to your gut instincts and when it tells you a situation is bad or person is manipulative you should seriously listen to it. Whenever i have dismissed such gut feelings I have made bad choices in people. reflecting on those choices, one thing that i realized was when i look back at such moments i could easily recall what my instinct told me that not to engage the other person and not completely believe their words and assume they have no ill-intention.
Been married to one.. too long.. too late to do anything at this point.. Im stronger now than ever.. I will tell you what is the most awful part of living and trying to navigate this life .. even worse than being disconnected.. given the silent treatment.. and the lies.. is that All therapists we saw as a couple ( except one and he was a psychiatrist) do not hold him accountable..for his inappropriate behavior.. his flirting, his texting other women while we are on vacation, not until I stepped forward and said " Im not sitting here listening to you make excuses for him" What he has done is wrong in a marriage" He is now 75 yo and has dementia. Im an RN and have lots of empathy.. not for him.. too late.. took a life time 40 years to figure it all out.. There is a sense of freedom at looking in from the outside..Narcissism is truly a mental illness.. not simply inappropriate behavior.
Well said. I absolutely share your sentiments.
One problem i have with what is being said here is that, as we know, narcissistic people (grandiose variety) often make a great impression on people that they are not particularly close to. The people who are favorably impressed by them do not consider them narcissists. So what Im saying is that we cannot distinguish, as suggested here, between narc and toxic on the basis that one is relative and the other objective or absolute. Both will be viewed as toxic or narcissistic by some and not by others.
Yes, my exhusbands male best friends like going out and drinking with him - he is easy going, urbane, fun - when he is having fun and there are no expectations on him or he doesn't need to 'care' or be responsible. How he treats his wife/ex wife children has no bearing on their relationship - in fact it reinforces their relationship because he will abdicate his childcare responsibilities and dump children at a moments notice to drink with friends.
I love your definitions, so down to earth - makes me chuckle! I can relate to some stories. feel like you are a real friend, Dr. Ramani. Thanks
I agree with this video, there truly is a difference. I have been in touch with people who can be toxic but are not a narcissist. For instance, people who are too perfectionistic and then try to get you to be that way too.
Very helpful! The 3rd friend is a perfect example for me! Thank you, Dr. Romani!
Avoiding that person as much as possible daily. Always enjoy my own space where I really found my peace. I'm digging out of it as I speak. All done and wow am I paying the humility and everything else that comes with the escape.😊😊
Every holiday has been horrible for ten years. There are times I can't even think, work ,eat or pray. It's a narcissistic person . It took me ten years to figure out what was wrong .Im always apologizing just to stop him from being mad after he has been mean for no reason. There are even times when he yells "say you're sorry" a million times. It's over I can't take it another day. I need my mind to be clear so I can focus on my goals.
Six of one, half dozen of another. I'm not going to worry about semantics concerning people who consistently ruin my day with their self-centeredness. I'm just going to stay away from them whenever possible. In the world of professionals, I'm sure there are reasons to be very specific about a diagnosis. For one thing, you don't want to be labeled as someone who doesn't know their stuff, or who is over-zealous, or who creates a furor over a trendy topic. But for the rest of us, in everyday life, I for one am perfectly comfortable with saying toxic or narcissistic because I'm not diagnosing someone. I am just using the words as general comments about how a person conducts themselves in my presence.
Dr. Ramani, I'm a 55 year old man with adult children with a passive narcissistic mother (I believe those are the correct terms). She was, or is, an extreme parental alienator, and now is launching new attacks, if you will, and it is devastating me. I confess, I have been fundamentally bed ridden for nearly a month now. I live alone, never have visitors, and cannot see any pathway out... I am in immense pain. Thank you for your videos, bits & pieces of them offer me moments of solace.
I wouldn't use the term parental alienation, but instead domestic violence by proxy. Tina Swithin has a blogpost on why the term is bad.
@ThanksHermione That seems fitting.
@@ThanksHermione I just listened to a portion of one of her videos, and it seems she is calling actual victims of this nefarious behavior as attempting to pretend being victimized. Where confusion lays, so there does the nefarious in spirit. Absolutely awful stuff.
Thank you for this video. I prefer to not be around either. They are both energy-draining.
This was a good review and clarification on these buzz words. I do recovery for coda and sud and the words get thrown around a lot.
My narcissistic sibling can’t control me anymore. But she can control my reputation.
Many of my ex-friends were toxic, but some of them were narcissistic.
Wow that's unlucky 😕
@@amandaliverpool3374 Needless to say, I got out of their group. 🚶♂💨🚩
With my MIL, I can handle her in small doses, but with frequent exposure, I feel so much dread and anxiety. I feel like there is a coil deep in my chest/ stomach. Then it takes months of no contact to feel normal again. And I ruminate so much I can't sleep some nights.
My sense is that whether toxicity or narcissism they are both on their respective spectrums, and there is probably a spectrum ranging from some kind of toxicity to some expressions of narcissism as well. Also, there are people who display forms of toxicity at sometimes and outright narcissistic behavior at others depending on what they are experiencing at that season of their life, and what effect stress Has on that person.
Thank you, Dr Ramani, for clarifying that topic. Now the challenge question: - Was the character portrayed by actress Meryl Streep in "The Devil Wears Prada" just toxic or a full fledged Narcissist?
She was
What do you think?
The major difference is one (TOXIC) is poisonous and the other one (NARCISSISTIC) is venomous.
Venom is not poison ?
If you bite it and you die, it's poison. If it bites you and you die, it's venom. Poison is something you have to eat or inhale. Venom is delivered directly into your bloodstream.
Poison is something you have to eat or inhale. Venom is delivered directly into your bloodstream, which is worse.
One is eaten or inhaled and the other is injected directly into the bloodstream and that's worse.
@@shreyaindia4024I think venom means born evil predators and poisoning means toxic pattern in psychological damaged people
From my understanding toxic people can irritate, frustrate or anger us but we're able to walk away from the situation. Narcissistic people are all of these things, we can't walk away from them or the situation. The situation snowballs and no matter what we do it becomes worse.
This is possibly the most valuable video I have listened to since I finally realized a few months ago what was happening to me and went no contact with my mother. I've been doing this for 58 years to try to maintain that relationship without realizing WHY. The shame and guilt I've been feeling for so long......defined. Thank you Dr Ramani. Thank you ❤
Thank you dor this information. It is amazing how you have identified relationships. Over time i have seen myself and others .
This is very helpful as i have both kinds of people in my life. It helps to keep it apart.
What makes someone “toxic” is when you catch that person “ego boosting”. Everyone boosts their ego, but the degree of this varies and the more someone does it, the more toxic they come off.
Makes me physically sick
Toxic is on a spectrum
What you are describing is my mom and my ex are definitely narcissistic. Others I have wondered about, maybe just narcissistic characteristics in them. Thank you again
Thank you so much for addressing this.
...but you still got a gift. You still have a family. I miss those events, however trying they may be on Thanksgiving (especially) the arena, if you will, that still knows they are a unit. Of any sort. God bless them wherever they are.
My one accused me of attacking him set up .i am falling apart solicitor not good ,losing will to even get out of bed ,He is now living with new supply,
I'm praying for you right now Carol.
Good discussion. I have a friend who’s got empathy, but I walk on eggshells around him. I have to be sooo careful at how I talk to him or he’ll suddenly get mad at me. In fact, he quit talking to me over a year ago and I have no idea why. He lives next door. This is like the 4th time he’s done this to me, just stops talking. Then one day, I’m okay again. And I will bend over backwards trying to nod and smile and not set him off, and out of the blue he loses it. This past year my feelings were hurt, but at least I am no longer emotionally exhausted by it. He’s not quite narcissistic, but maybe we just don’t work well together. Maybe we’re just a toxic mix.
Toxic people are very quick to roll their eyes at anyone who "has a problem" with their rude behavior. They'll shrug their shoulders, too, and say that person is way too sensitive.
It's nice to be important but it's more important to be nice. We can only do our best.
@@amandaliverpool3374 And it's also extremely important to be nice to yourself - because you're with yourself 24/7 🥰🤗
@@amandaliverpool3374 Thanks for your comment on my post 🙏💕🫂
P.S.: I tried several times to answer you but each time it was deleted 🙄
@roxymovie3938 That's true about all of us. We ofter don't give ourselves enough credit 🙏🕯💕
@@amandaliverpool3374 Exactly 👍... I tried to answer you on my post and even here, but both were gone immediatly 😏
Just got a phone call from my daughter that did not last 3 minutes for she got directly into playing the victim, blaming me 🙄 Hope things are a bit better now for you. 🙏💕🫂
@amandaliverpool3374 Exactly 👍
I've tried to answer you on my post and even here several times, but without luck 😏 And now I just got a phone call from my daughter that did not last 3 minutes because she got directly into blaming mode 🙄 Exhausting...
Hope it goes a bit better now with you?
🙏💕🫂
Would you say.. for example : a mother and daughter agreed to sit down and talk about the childhood trauma and recent years.
The daughter starts off with “ I feel like you never cared about being a parent and protecting me “- gave her examples of a few very bad things that happened, and the mother totally dismisses it and says it didn’t happen that it wasn’t true. When it quickly escalated into an argument the daughter accused her of dismissal and gaslighting, the mother went straight for bringing up the daughters teenage drug issues and past mistakes, then when the daughtter is totally breaking down and drowning in tears - the mother started grinning and acting condescending. But then in front of other people(family/frienda/professionals) she’d act like the victim and cry and say things like “I can’t believe my own child would do it to me”
Would you say the mother is toxic or narcissistic ???
Narc!
Good one- I’d lean to say she’s a narcissist
Covert narc. Been there with my own mother, a vulnerable covert. They eviscerated you while presenting as the do gooder.
Thanks for actually replying 🙏🏻
A little follow up question:
How does one stay sane when the narcissistic mother is totally pulling all the strings she can to ruin the child’s life, but they can’t go no contact for a very specific reason?
@ I don’t know! Try thinking of your emotions as electrical currents. Remember the dimmer light switch. We can turn it up full or we can slowly dim it.
This is so valuable and clarifying. Thank you !
Very interesting Dr Ramani,, thank you for the explanation.
Thank you for this video! I needed this clarification
Great video. Important distinction.
you are the best!!
Hi Dr Ramani, welcome to muscat.
I wish i could come and see you.
Your advice is very helpful.
I finally remembered the word I used to use in the '80s to describe narcissism before I knew the word narcissist. it was "Conformity" It was such a big deal in the 80's and 90's. I always knew the people who conformed were conforming to the cult of the narcissists... I always knew the behavior was so sick and wrong, we had other words to describe it before the word narcissist came along... I almost wonder if conformity is better bc it refers to the enablers and that enablers are where the narcissists get their power, so maybe it's more important to focus on the enablers? bring back the word "conformity"??? Thank you 👍❤❤❤
That's another good one, feeling you have to conform to me means they're narcissistic. Toxic people will just be toxic but you don't feel you have to conform to their views.