The victory must be won for children's sake. Robb: Brutally murdered Bran: Lost in magic land Arya: Turned into an assassin Rickon: Lost in a cannibal island Sansa: Walking around with a pedophile who set up her families death
The Order of the Green Hand - Fortuately they cast Michelle Fairely who has a history on my side of the pond for playing unlikable characters. I don’t know what her reputation is in the North America.
D&D are crazy about Catelyn for some reason, so they tried to salvage her image for the show. Maybe Michelle Fairley wasn't interested in playing a total bitch?
Anyone else love Ned using Catelyn's own argument against her? When he voices that he's not exactly thrilled at Sansa being bethrothed at eleven, she says that she was only a little older when she was betrothed to Brandon. And when she tries to get him to leave Bran at Winterfell, she says he's too young, only for Ned to say that he was only a little older than Bran when he was fostered.
This explains a lot as to why Ned never told Catelyn about Jon. In the show, she seemed very loving and loyal to Ned and i figured the only reason he didnt tell her about Jon was so she would always act cold toward him and no one would ever suspect he wasnt Ned's. But this version of Catelyn is clearly not trusted by Ned even though Ned may not be able to admit that to himself.
He just couldn't take the chance that she might slip up and say something. Also, people would become suspicious if she suddenly started being kind to Jon. Shakespeare once said "Two may keep a secret, if one of them is dead"
It's also none of her business that Jon is not his son. Yes it bothers her greatly and his presence throws shame on Ned and his honor, as well as the trust he shares with Catelyn because how can she trust him if he's not willing to address the elephant in the room, but ultimately it is a matter of Jon's safety and by keeping it a secret he's also protecting himself from her making any suggestions as to what might be right for him or not. Also he kinda promised his sister he'd keep him safe and how can he assure that if he talks about it? A secret is best kept alone
@Ool13 Konu if he truly trusted her completely then he would have told her the truth about Jon. He didn't tell her, so therefore he didn't completely trust her. It's not difficult to understand.
"a boy with a bastard's name"? Why didn't Ned just say "bastard"? Perhaps Ned slipped a bit, if he's not actually a bastard but just has a bastard's name.
It may have been intentional. I myself sometimes tell purposeful half-truths to avoid using a lie, since I dislike lying even for a good reason (though I still will). Being able to turn it into a half-truth makes it easier to stomach, and I suspect Ned feels the same way.
Did you notice that in Catelyn 1 when she is telling Ned of Jon Arryn's death she says that the letter had the Baratheon seal and was in Robert's handwriting, so I would assume it was addressed to Ned but Catelyn was allowed to open it and read it. But when Ned reaches out for Lysa Arryn's letter in Catelyn 2 Maester Luwin won't give it to him because it is addressed to Catelyn. Just an interesting thought about something being in that letter that Ned was not supposed to see.
what bothers me the most is NED is the lord Luwin serves...he gives Ned's letter to Cat, and refuses to let Ned see the secret letter hidden in the box...Cat doesn't mention it saying it's for her eyes only on that outside of the letter...she only makes note of the seal...the whole scene is a mummer's show
since maester luwin delivered "all of " catelyns children, Robb - who was born in riverrun - is included. this means Luwin probably first served as maester in Riverrun. This is supported by Lady Ryswell who claims Maester Walys was encouraging Eddards father to Marry Brandon to Catelyn , which means he was proably still Maester when Rickard and Bran went south. in conclusion Luwin is probably more loyal to catelyn than Eddard.
@@hmhmoinsdk oh 100% on that. He was the maester of riverrun while she grew up and was sent to winterfell with her to watch over her and newly born Robb, and since maester walys of winterfell dipped out he stayed up north and was definitely team catelyn all the way.
Ned can't READ Lysa's letter! Luwin gives it to the only person who CAN! Also, Lysa was sending a private letter, just for her sister. Robert's letter could and probably would have been addressed to Ned formally, in his capacity as Lord of Winterfell. Important guys get a lot of mail. Catelyn is kind of doing the job of an assistant, filtering it to see what Ned really needs to know. We see that Ned trusts Catelyn to act in his name and as his agent. There's nothing subversive about her screening his mail.
@@brandocalrissian3294 No, there was another maester, Kym, who prepared Lysa's abortifacient. This was following Brandon's duel with Petyr, so Luwin would not have been the maester of Riverrun for any amount of time. What is just as likely is that Luwin came south with Ned & his army, and Ned left him to care for his new wife, or sent him back to Riverrun when he learned that Catelyn was pregnant, because they'd have a bunch of maesters with the army. Possibly including Kym. Maybe he and Hoster were discussing whose maester should go back to be with Cat and Ned would have insisted on his guy, Luwin, because it's his heir they're talking about, and Catelyn's going to have to get used to him anyway.
I might have left this message last time I watched this but : "Brandon would know what to do, he always did." Well except for that time he yelled for the crown prince to come out and die.
Catelyn's cruelty towards Jon was enough to make me loathe her. Her anger at Ned is understandable, if not justified*, and she could even be forgiven for not _liking_ Jon. However, she goes out of her way to be cruel to an innocent child, and even plots to send him to a penal colony, so she could get murdered at her own brother's wedding, or something, for all I care. *if you need an example of the danger posed by an ambitious bastard, just look at what happened with Ramsay.
You know the show even vindicates her fears, while adding content to rebuke her for not loving him. At the end of Season 6, Jon is acclaimed King in the North, while standing RIGHT NEXT TO Catelyn's daughter, the rightful heir to Winterfell and the family member most responsible for the defeat of the Boltons and restoration of Stark rule. Ned keeping Jon close, raising him as a son and making sure the whole world knew he was Ned's son, is how Jon has enough of a rep to be accepted as a successor to the Stark lordship and exactly the thing Catelyn wanted to avoid. And yes, her treatment of Jon is completely wrong, but its a case of society telling her there is something inherently wrong about Jon, plus giving her husband absolute power in the family, leading to her taking out her frustrations with the situation against Jon, because she can't direct the blame where it really belongs, to Ned.
Caitlyn understands southern politics, not northern men. The two are as different as the seasons. Jon would not have claimed Winterfell unless all other Stark lords were dead. Ned knew it, Robb knew it. Caitlyn would not listen and her choices brought ruin to Winterfell.
@@no-un3cb / To be fair, Ramsey is a cruel boy from a cruel family while Jon is a quiet if somber boy who never had anything but love and respect for his siblings and father. Catelyn had no reason to treat Jon like a violent mongol who was waiting for the first chance to slit his brothers throats, Jon was just a child and she treated him like a criminal.
At least Cersei and Olenna have the balls to be who they are; Catelyn hides behind her husband's reputation and pretends to be something she's not. I can't help but despise Catelyn for the way she treated Jon Snow, either.
I really can't hate Catelyn for hating Jon. I mean, it sounds evil, yeah, but she's human, and humans err and George likes to write about how no one's perfect and everyone makes human mistakes.
Alexandro Sánchez but she has a whole bastard that ned cared for and loves. yet she cant do the same with aegon like wtf is wrong w the bitch. plus shes super emotionally, almost as bratty as daenerys
She was also cruel when the Young Wolf decided to legitimise his brother. She completely opposed Robb's decision. She even went on to suggest a distant Royce cousin in the vale to inherit Winterfell. lol How cruel is that?
She's almost always stone-hearted...we actually think George brought her back to life because people liked her too much and he didn't want them to like her so he brought her back to drive home how evil she is
Yeah because actually legitimizing Jon would make any of Rob's children and descendents rule insecure. Just like how Maegor the unworthy legitimizing all his badtards had led to the blackfyre rebellions which had lasted half a century.
Actually, it was Aegon IV the unworthy, not Maegor. Maegor the Cruel was the guy who abolished the Faith Militant, I think. Also, Aegon legitimised like 13 bastards even though he had legitimate children. Robb's child wasn't born yet, his sisters were assumed to be imprisoned by Lannisters, and his trueborn brothers were assumed dead. Legitimizing Jon was actually very reasonable, because if anything happened to both Robb and his child, legally (unless the Kings of Winter used the Agnatic Primogeniture succession law), Sansa is queen, and she is a Lannister hostage. Legitimizing Jon in case anything happens to Robb and his child was one of the only ways to keep power within the north. Even if it is argued that Jon had already become a black brother, legitimizing him won't be detrimental to Robb's children anyway due to his vows.
The entire point of legitimizing him was to make possible to name Jon his heir. The vows Jon took only matter so long as he's in the watch. The vows being to serve for life, not have kids or rule lands ect. Rob planned releasing Jon from his vows so to make it possible for him to be his heir. Making him and any trueborn children he'd beget a very reasonable threat to Rob's line. Jon has the classical Starks's features, has Ned's demeanor. Catelyn is right to worry.
I have not read the books, why the hell is the show version of Cat not wanting Ned to go but the Book version does? "My father went on the kings errand once" Holy shit that was Ned's line??? WTF is up with the show!?? That is glaring!!
the show seems to have gone out of their way to make her more likeable...they made her a strong leading lady as opposed to someone who is either evil or the single most incompetent character in the series
The Order of the Green Hand that's really weird I wonder why? I noticed that too with the whole changing her mind about her jon snow hate which she apparently never does in the books. Maybe they wanted her to be more likable so the red wedding is more impactful?
I think they thought the show lacked a leading lady in the first season with Dany being used and abused by Drogo (which didn't happen in the books by the way...he was far more caring towards her from the beginning), and Cersei acting like Cersei, so they made Catelyn the leading lady
Politics over storytelling, when did that start becoming the trend? Sucks I'm praying for a word for word scene for scene animated adaptation of a song of ice and fire in my lifetime trying to be as accurate to George's vision as much as possible
that would be great...with real likenesses of the characters too...for instance...Jon is supposed to look exactly like Ned...Tormund is supposed to be in his 70s, all the stark children are supposed to be red heads except Arya and no more blending characters together...I hadn't thought about that before, but now I really want it to happen
@@lonestarwolfentertainment7184 fat chance. The Starks fail so much because they play the game assuming everyone is as honourable as they are. That's literally why Jon was stabbed in the back by his Black Brothers. Stark men couldnt smell betrayal if they left it burning on the kitchen stove lol. Rickard, Brandon (older), Eddard, Bran (younger), Robb, and Jon can all attest to that 💀.
@@lonestarwolfentertainment7184 Exactly how was he supposed to do that? How would he have known what the Freys were going to do? The reaction of Ghost might have made him nervous, but I don't think that Rob would turn back based on that. This was his last chance to get back on Walder Frey's good side and get his men across the bridge.
if we must hate Cat, it's cause she goes behind her loved one's back and it's always someone else who pays for it -she doesn't tell Ned she's coming to KL to see him so he gets mad at Littlefinger for bringing her to a brothel -she arrests Tyrion and escalates the Stark/Lannister feud causing Lord Tywin to invade the River lands and Ned to almost get killed on the street by Jaime. I don't also believe her daddy's bannermen are happy that their men were killed for helping her -she springs Jaime from captivity
alex thelizardking Don't forget to hate cersei and littlefinger, Varys, lysa, robert, balon, roose, walder, stannis they are all responsible for all these creazy events that lead to the doom of westero's future and their economic
Sergio Milho If Dany comes to westeros her better chances of taking the iron throne would be to support rebellion in the north, riverland, dorne, vale, iron fleets in order to face tyrell and lannister alliances. The North would be the best place to take out the main forces of lannister and Tyrells forces, trapping them under the harsh winter storms and cutting them from the provisions, ambushes and nights attacks all these are a good way to rid of your enemies main strength to get closer to the iron throne
Always someone else who pays for it? Robb got himself, his mother, and the northern cause all killed with his immature mistakes. It was Catelyn warning him against meeting with the Freys and even before that she was the only one speaking sense when all his bannermen screamed for war.
@abdulkarimelnaas7595 I disagree that his perspective on the characters is worthless. When interpreting a legislation, a court does not only look at the black letter, but it also goes beyond and studies the hansard to look at the intent of the legislator. The intent of the writer definitely helps when there are wildly conflicting views on one same point. Also, there isn't much in the books to vilify Catelyn to the level that fans (perhaps more specifically, Jon fanboys) love to. It's pretty clear from the chapter that Catelyn was not being herself, and even Jon was surprised.
Not really. This is catelyn the whole time if u just stop seeing what you wanna see. Catleyn is always SOO selfish that she says and does pretentious and unreasonable stuff. Think about it, she frees the king slayer on a wild whim and hope, even though it goes against everything Robb had told her and all of her own common sense (which we get strait from her mind). She kidnaps Tyrion (one of the blood royals) off one persons word. These are things someone who feels entitled does. If anyone reading this including myself just decides to kidnap someone (even someone not royalty) bcuz one person said they were guilty people would tell us we’re trippin. And rightfully so. Catelyn absolutely is like this, they’re reading the chapter strait up lol
You know I never really liked Hoster Tully as he was an ungrateful bastard who turned on his family's ancient benefactors to create powerful dynastic alliances for his children. And didn't exactly join the rebels out of a sense of righteousness but did it because he saw an opportunity to further his family's ambitions just as Walder Frey had done. Its no wonder his two daughters turned out to be scheming bitches with their own ruthless agendas and Littlefinger who was his ward has turned into such a backstabbing bastard.
Dynastic Marriages were how alliances and peace treaties were secured until the start of the 20th century from royals down to farmers, marrying for love was seen as stupid and wasting a good business opportunity . The books and show are set in a semi-medieval style world so what Hoster Tully did was pretty much par for the course. I will grant that Hoster tried to milk the deal for all that it was worth with Ned Stark and Jon Arryn (Robert being betrothed to Lyanna Stark put him off the table) and Ned's children by Catelyn being raised in the faith of the seven, even building a Sept for Catelyn. One could also argue that Hoster Tully was being a bit of a Hypocrite by calling out Walder Frey for looking out for his own interests as well (i.e. not coming in on the rebels side until after the battle on the trident) ASOIAF is littered with characters who have major personality flaws (with a few exceptions for better and worse) Catelyn is no exception, but if without those flaws the characters would probably be very boring and the books would remain in obscurity. That said GRRM does turn up some of these flaws to the Nth degree but that's just how he rolls as a writer.
Such a shame that Tywin (who used to say that family is ALL that lives on), Stannis (who does his duty as no one) and Ned (who was one of the most honorable man in Westeros) followed the Tully words better than the Tullys themselves!
I loved House Blackwood in the novels. They kept faith with the Old Gods. Raventree remained as the last Stark loyalist, even after Riverrun surrendered. Alyssa Blackwood(Black Alys), Benjicot Blackwood (Bloody Ben), Melissa Blackwood, Brynden Rivers(Bloodraven). They're just as badass as the Starks. Their liege lords, Tully's on the other hand always seemed opportunistic and barely competent. I hope they become the liege lords at the end of the novel series.
Speaking of Joffrey, would you do a video about him? exploring how he is a more tragic than evil chararcter? His whole persona is largely due to his terrible upbringing and not the whole incest thing (nature vs nurture). His father was distant, cold and abusive yet he still idolized him and tried to emulate him. His mother was enabling, overbearing, deceitful to him and instilled in him contempt for others and cruel sadism.
Egie Asemota Robert was not too abusive. He only hit Cersei sometimes, when she went way out of line (ie, insulting him; "Perhaps I should wear the armour, and you the gown." Not a good idea to say that to a 6'5 man who used to be one of the greatest warriors in the history of the 7 Kingdoms). He hit Joffrey once (I believe) when Joffrey cut open a pregnant cat to see what was inside. That was it. He tried to set Joffrey right, but Cersei pretty much blocked him. He just stopped trying at some point, and this was probably one more reason for why he sunk deeper and deeper into lust and drink.
By our medieval world's view, she was doing what she thought would ensure her sons' inheritance. The Blackfyre rebellion showed her what could go wrong if such things weren't carefully seen to. I don't see her as the worst, only because her motivation was security for her children. Sons with good connections, daughters with well off husbands, no wars fought over the ownership of Winterfell. She made some bad decisions and it cost her everything.
you're right. doesn't make her actions any less gross. the way she did it just rubs me the wrong way. she has a holier than though attitude which i think is part of the problem. i also wonder what kind of person leaves winterfell, with one son crippled, who was almost murdered, and the other being only 3, and never returns. talk about security for her children. its really disturbing.! i find her to be extremely selfish. even cersei would've kept a closer eye on her children, which is why she is a step above catelyn in my book. but thank you so much for watching and for taking the time to comment.
Daemon and Bittersteel were defeated by another legitimized bastard Bloodraven. Out of all of their bastard kindred, Blackfyre and Bittersteel were the only ones to the rebel while the rest stayed loyal to Daeron the Good. The Blackfyre Rebellion doesn't hold water as an example of why legitimizing bastards is a bad thing.
Not an argument. Just because it can happen, doesn't mean every single bastard ever born will be a threat to their house. In fact, there were more important factors to the rebellion than Daemon's bastardry. Mainly the remaining hatred towards Dorne and Daeron's like for Dornish culture and Aegon IV's constant supplanting and undermining of Daeron's legitimatcy by inferring rumors of adultery between his wife Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight. Furthermore, no bastard in recent times has shown themselves to be anymore capable of treachery and cruelty than their trueborn kin with the sole exceptions of Joffrey and Ramsey.
Well, 1. She was the one who forced Ned to go South. 2. She was the one who really kickstarted Tywin assault on the Riverlands by capturing Tyrion. When Ned explicitly gave her instructions to nothing rash and fortify the North. 3. She captured Tyrion knowing her husband and children were in danger IN the south which led to Ned being injured and his household guards killed, essentially destroying any hope he had of getting out of Kings Landing safely. 4. She went in another direction after capturing Tyrion, starting the damned war and then proceeds to lose said man Tyrion. 5. She bartered away Robb's hand for a God damned bridge (an important one, mind you) but Robb is heir to the NORTH. Imagine the alliances Robb could've tried for if his hand was not promised to a weasel who refused to defend his liege lord. 6. The most damning. She released Jaime fcking Lannister, who was THE hostage Robb would ever get from the Lannisters. She believed in Jaime's vow to bring her Sansa and Arya, the Jaime who at the time was known to be an oathbreaker (was necessary but still they didn't know) and cuckolded another King, fathering bastards and placing said bastards as heir to the Throne. She believed in THAT guy. Jaime was a traitor and oathbreaker twice over. 7. She essentially forces Jon to go to the Wall. The North might think it a noble calling but it was essentially a penal colony. Remember "The Lone wolf dies but the pack survives". If Jon had been with Robb he would've been a great boon him. Jon and Robb are the perfect. Robb the military mind and Jon the administrative mind. Robb was a lone wolf down in the south. For me it's point 6 that ruins her character. She did something sooo stupid. Like how stupid can you get?
Ive never liked her or trusted her. The show does in fact make her more likable, but in the books, I couldn't stand her. Thought she was the worst. Thank you for bringing up these points, and I will be waiting for the next part. As well as part 5 of The Wars to Come
Thank you...the Wars to Come is going to be delayed a week or two...our children of the forest collab video with Tony Teflon requires A LOT of work...we had this material already researched and ready for presentation and we promised it to people a month ago, and people kept asking for it so we released it while we're working with Tony...plus, researching all that doom and gloom was a real downer...we had a lot of fun hating on Catelyn
The Order of the Green Hand lol Well very good job both of you. Keep em coming. I love your channel. Great fucking work, great fucking look at the story
Just before Christmas, when I first saw your Wars to Come series I actually sent Tony Teflon a Facebook message asking if he'd seen your channel. I was so excited when he told me you guys would be working together!! Especially on the CotF!!
Koketta Knowles...i think Robbs marriage was the main disaster for the starks, however Catelyns prideful and headstrong actions didn't help much either.
Sorry not sorry but saying that Catelyn Stark is the worst person that's ever lived in a fictional universe that contains ... half the Lannisters, two thirds of the Targaryens, both Clegane brothers, Craster, the White Walkers, the various slavers in Essos, Littlefinger and the Boltons is purely ridiculous.
Okay, just because it's her POV chapter doesn't mean that all the things we're told in the text are her current stream-of-consciousness thoughts. Just because GRRM chose to describe the room rather than the bumping and grinding going on in the bed doesn't mean that's what she was thinking about right then. At that point, the reader is still learning these bits and pieces about Winterfell being built on top of hot springs which run through the walls. About her being from a warmer place called Riverrun and having a brother and a sister. That doesn't mean that she's picturing her brother and sister while she's fucking. There are PLENTY of examples of information being shared during POV chapters (because they're ALL POV chapters) that the current POV character doesn't actually know. GRRM will go off explaining the long history of an inn that our character comes across... even though that character knows jack shit about the history of that inn.
Yep, those were my thoughts too. For a moment I thought, how did I miss that, that she's thinking that. But in no way is it implied that she is thinking that.
zardox78 also just because she was not thinking if ned fucking her how dude this make her bad like they been married now did a while and probably have sex often considering the 5 children she had so like there married who the fuck cares if she’s not think about fucking Ned plus Ned never hated cat in fact I think ned had a hard time .( book ned ) with her because she asked about jons mother .
Hmm no, not really, if a character doesn't know jackshit about an inn there will be someone explaining them the history or they will flat out not think about it and just describe the things they see(Arya II ASOS). George is very meticulous and only let's characters speak for what they know, otherwise they will ask. As for Cat thinking during some random stuff during sex, yes is a bit of exposition but it's also characterization for Cat. George could have easily chosen her to be laying in bed post coitus and the scene will be literally the same.
I always took Catelyn as the pinnacle of the old mentality. She is everything that is wrong with Sansa. Even Cat dreamt of being a Lady, the woman from the songs, flowers in her hair...more powerful that she is capable of being. And even when she got almost everything a "Lady could dream of" she still couldn't cope with Jon (the one and only thing out of order). Sansa still has to shake off the poisonous expectations her mother bestilled her with.
Ramsey is more sadistic than her. If she's a better person than him however it's by a narrow margin. Her thoughts and actions do not line up. She knows what the correct decisions are, then does the opposite every time
the thing that bothers me the most about her is that she thinks things through first and weighs out her options, and comes to the correct conclusion, then does the opposite
thank you...he did it in response to what Catelyn did...that's all I needed to know...for a minute there I couldn't remember...thank you for reminding me
When Cat says "She would not have it" I GENUINELY think she would have had Jon killed if he stayed at Winterfell. Hmmmm wanna know who that reminds me of? Cersei Lannister when Robert wanted to bring Myra Stone (his first bastard, who it actually seems like he tried to care about) to King's Landing
I am no fan of Catelyn but I am glad that she was cruel to Jon. Her cruelty caused Jon to take the high road and grow up quicker than his siblings in a world that is unforgiven to all men & women rather you're a bastard, commoner, or nobility. What's even more ironic is Catelyn's southerly ambitions, lying, selfishness and scheming caused all her children to suffer greatly for it and the one thing she tried to prevent Jon being a legitimate heir to Winterfell came to past when Robb named him his heir.
modiva79 Not only that. Ned died because of her scheming. She convinced him to go south and we know how that turned out. In this same chapter she recalled the dead direwolf. She must've thought that's the price I have to pay to get rid of Jon.
I wouldn't say Jon made too many terrible choices. A lot of his decisions were well thought out and forward thinking. Other than banging ygritte a lot of the matters he had to deal with were really complex. Unlike his brother Robb, who made really terrible and stupid choices. Not marrying the frey girl, sending Theon to treat with Balon instead of holding Theon and forcing Balon to side with him, beheading Rickard Karstark, sending loyal stark men (tallhart & Glover men) to be commanded by Roose Bolton...to name a few. Becoming King in the North was the most stupid one.
I started re-reading the books, and I just finished the Catelyn II chapter where we see the blossoming of her sketchiness. I noticed a passage that concerned me. Cat tells Ned what the letter from Lysa "says". Ned isn't swayed by the news enough to want to become Robert's Hand. So she thinks to herself how she feels bad for Ned, but she can't comfort him because first 'the victory must be won, for her children's sake'. Then she plays on Ned's love for Robert to guilt him into taking the job, which seems to work. My question is, what victory is she talking about? How will the outcome of this victory help her Stark children? How would it benefit her children to place their father around people you suspect of murder? Her children weren't impacted by Jon Arryn's murder, so the justice she claims to want for his murder would benefit her sister Lysa, not her own children.When Ned finally agrees to go, Maester Luwin asks what will happen with Jon Snow. Cat vehemently refuses to allow him to stay at Winterfell, and is overjoyed at the idea of Jon joining the watch. If he takes their oath, he can't father sons that could one day challenge her grandchildren's claim to Winterfell. Taking that into account, and considering that she just hates Jon as he's a constant reminder of Ned's 'infidelity', do you think the victory she wants to win is to get Ned to leave Winterfell so Jon would also have to leave? Jon's exit and subsequent joining of the night's watch would be considered a victory to her; the reminder of Ned's other love and the threat to her children's hold on Winterfell would be eliminated in one fell swoop.
That is exactly what we wondered when we read it....what victory? viewing Jon as a threat to her children's right to Winterfell doesn't even make sense...she has 5 children ahead of him in the line of succession...the only thing we could think of that would make him a legitimate threat to her children would be if Ned was really married to Ashara and Jon is therefore the oldest and trueborn and the heir to Winterfell....going to whatever lengths necessary to get Ned to go to KL to be Robert's hand so she could force the issue of Jon leaving, full well knowing that Maester Luwin (who it says in the app, assisted her in forcing Jon to the Wall) would suggest Jon take the Black, would be a victory for her children
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Maester Luwin come w/Cat from Riverrun to replace Maester Walys? That would explain his teaming with Cat In this. Hell for all we know, Cat directly gave Luwin the box and the mysterious nap drop off was a farse. What do you think her end game in this whole conspiracy is? The only thing I could come up with is Littlefinger masterminded the entire thing, which includes starting the lie that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. With the goal of eliminating all Stark suitors for Cat, so he could have her. It played out like the red wedding, where he pits his enemies against each other and let's them kill each other. Only Ned didn't die in the war. So LF poisoned Jon Arryn to create a Hand vacancy, knowing full well Robert would ask Ned to take the job. The fact that Cat spent days with LF alone makes me wonder if he was giving her further instructions. Like Tyrion Lannister's whereabouts.
we couldn't be more aligned in our thinking....if we could prove it we would have included it in the videos...the only thing we could prove was her actions were suspect as heck...why did she need to beat Ned to KL....why did she say "so soon?" when Littlefinger summoned her when she got there? why don't her actions and thoughts ever line up? Why didn't she do any of the things Ned told her needed to be done to prepare for a potential war with the Lannisters? I personally don't think she ever planned on Ned leaving KL alive...when his bones were shown to her she thinks about his secrets dying with him (Jon being the true heir?)
I'm wondering if what's played out on the show will play out in the books. If so, the brotherhood she leads will go back to Winterfell, which Jon now controls not as warden of the North, but King in the North. Basically her worst nightmare came true x10 lol. The potential interaction between Lady Stoneheart and Jon would be very interesting I think.
I keep telling people I hope she lives just long enough to see Jon crowned and her children standing next to him. All I would be able to think would be JUSTICE SERVED
Poor Edmure. Feel bad for him. His sisters are psychos, he is unjustly blamed for Tywin and Gregor's escape, he got imprisoned since his wedding night. And yet the fandom curses him, and not his sisters.
I always thought Catelyn was a good character, strong and determined. Except ofcourse I didn't like how she mistreats Jon and how she recklessly taken Tyrion knowing full well Ned was already in danger oh and how she took it upon herself to defy her King, her son even though he was already in shit for not marrying a Frey. Come to think of it I hate how she elected herself to make treaty with Walder. Gosh I can't remeber but did Catelyn also convince Ned to trust Baelish? Could she even be at fault regarding Sansa's naive dreamy nature in believing in songs her mother told her about and grooming her? Ultimately betraying her father. I am sure you'll touch on these and many others if so. Yup Catelyn is the worst person alive. I've been looking forward to this video eversince you mentioned she was the one who forced Ned to go south in your last video. I look forward to the next one!
I always thought of Catelyn as a good character too, and I haven't finished the video yet, but they've made some important points that can't be ignored, I'm afraid. However, She did not know Robb had broke his vow to Walder Frey when she released Jamie in the second book. Robb was away, and she had to release Jamie because the Karstarks were going to try and kill him anyways. I used to hate her guts because of how she treated Jon in the first book, but over time I warmed up to her because of her nature. I really sympathized with her depressed state in the second and third book though, I felt a real connection to her character then, and I liked how she went against her shallow first impressions, and accepted Brienne. And, I doubt she had something to do with Petyr and Lysa's plans. What would Ned getting killed do for her other than give her all the stress she got in the second and third books?
Thank you for watching...and she did not have to release Jaime...she could have posted extra guards or done any number of things to ensure Jaime's safety...the Karstarks were not about to start killing their allies to get to Jaime...THAT would have been a disaster for them...they would have lost everything (possibly their lives) if they killed guardsmen at Riverrun...and I don't recall Catelyn being depressed...she thinks to herself once that I can remember that she grieves for Ned, yet that is the only thought she ever had about it, and she only thought about it because she found herself thinking about Jon and his mother and wondered if whoever she was grieved for Ned... I'll save my thoughts on the rest for our next video
The Order of the Green Hand Yeah, the Karstark part was more in the show, actually I kind of forgot what was happening in the book at that point. And, I could tell she was in a fragile state because a certain phrase kept showing up, she kept thinking she was saying things harsher than intended, and she's always thinking about Bran, Rickon and her kids, and there is that scene at a feast where she's getting really upset, and Brienne notices.
The Order of the Green Hand ▪I think that one time Catelyn grieved for Ned was I think what made me think of her a "good person" I perceived it as empathy and acknowledgement to the "other woman" even so, after watching this video again, I realized she already knew Ned was going to die.
I wouldn't be surprised if, during Catelyn's POV chapters, she thinks that during the first couples of sex nights between her and Ned, Cat used to pretend that Ned was Brandon in order to cope with her grief!
To the last person to comment: if Ned told his wife that Jon was actually a Targaryen and not his son; there wouldn't be a war of the five kings. Instead Ned would have to go to war with Robert because cateyle didn't keep her mouth shut and unwittingly started a rumor that became true.
You mean Jon Sand? Also, we don't know that Rhaegar and Lyanna are his parents in the books. Even so, Robert loved Lyanna and probably wouldn't go to war with Ned just to murder her son (if he is her son) - the reason he hates the Targaryens in the first place is because of what they did to the Starks.
The reason Robert hates the dragons is because he feels like Rhaegar stole something that belonged to him. He would absolutely want to kill Jon as well, especially considering I'm sure the narrative in his mind would be Rhaegar raped her and she's dead because of dragonspawn born of rape. It would be the last person he could visit his so called vengeance upon.
Snow Mercy..the reason Robert hates all Targaryens is because he knows lyanna went willingly with rhaegar and his pride cant handle the fact that she chose rhaegar over him. there was never any rape.
"Catelyn TULLY is the worst person that's ever lived" ...uh, not in a universe where there's a guy who keeps "marrying" his daughters while leaving his newborn baby boys for the ice zombies. Or where people like Ramsay and Joffrey exist. Or The Mountain who apparently has no motivations beyond just liking to rape and murder a whole lot, which Tywin is willing to facilitate. Or hell, where at least in the books CERSEI thinks that Catelyn is a weak fool because she let Jon grow up in Winterfell in the first place instead of just murdering him as a baby. Not that there are no legit reasons to dislike her, but that statement is like the extreme lack of perspective this fandom tends to have in its purest concentration.
Bit over the top don't you think? No, she's not a perfect person, she's cruel to Jon because she's jealous, but the WORST? Just because her mind wandered during sex and she wanted Ned to serve the king to keep peace and safety for the sake of her children? GoT isn't as simple as good or evil, characters are deeper than that, they have flaws and undesirable traits. Not every character who is shown to have bad sides to them is an almighty, evil, mastermind manipulator.
This video is about revealing Catelyn's ability to be manipulative to get what she wants. There's a bit of hyperbole in saying she's the worst ever but her actions caused thousands of deaths and there are several passages that could easily be viewed to indicate that she was screwing Ned over on purpose
I just started reading the books and was surprised how much I disliked Catelyns chapter. She seems such a horrible person. On the show she was much nicer, or more sympethatic
Instance #1 post-Tyrion capture: her oldest son jumped the gun and went to war like an absolute dumbass Instance #2: her father was dying in riverrun. Meanwhile her youngest 2 kids were chilling in winterfell in absolutely no danger. Instance #3: she thinks her 2 youngest kids were dead and her castle overrun. Why go back at all? Yeah. Fuck this lady for not going to winterfell to take care of her two youngest kids when she had bigger shit to deal with.
@@sethkins123 Robb also told her to take her ass home many times. She refused for every reason she could think of. She even lied to Bran and Rickon saying Robb had need of her as he was telling her to go home. So then he sends her off to Renly to get her the fuck away from him, because she was undermining his rule and being a pain in the ass. Robb did not jump the gun either. Tywin had already reacted to Catelyn's abduction of Tyrion and assembled his host, as well as burning the river lands and it's people. I could go on but you are obviously not paying attention to the story in the first place.
After Robert’s rebellion happens, Ned and Kat are married and go up to Winterfell to live. Almost immediately, Benjen leaves for the Wall. I have no doubt he had one conversation with Kat and thought “my brother is fucked but I’d rather freeze my balls off at the wall than stay here with that chick!”
The whole point of Catelyn stark is to show that even "good " people have faults, in my opinion Catelyn stark's faults enriched her personality, thus making her seem more realistic. The realism of many characters in this series, is the reason why these books are entertaining to read.
This scene wasn't about that...it was showing that Catelyn can be underhanded and manipulative...this video was the baseline for the conclusion, not the conclusion itself...if you watch the rest of them, keeping in mind that she is more than capable of being manipulative to get something she wants, and watch the absolute disaster she makes of every situation House Stark is unfortunate enough to have her present for, it begins to be a bit suspicious...she's not dumb, yet she does the worst possible thing for her house every time...making a few mistakes is human...making nothing but mistakes starts to look purposeful
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I think George is purposefully leaving out a great deal of info when it comes to Catelyn. I'm convinced she was littlefinger's spy if not a lannister plant. That, or she atleast had a cluster b personality because that's the only way to explain this.
@@HelenWA I've though about something on these lines before, and I look to the maesters/faith for the answer. They had their hands in arranging Brandon to Cat, and I believe the reason was the eventual conversion of House Stark.
I always hated Catelyn. When I first read it, I felt myself immediately feel disgusted upon reading it. I looked at the show first, and I liked her a bit as she seemed like a good mother, but when I read the first book I was baffled at the difference between these two women... The one in the show is way different than the one in the books... I always hated reading the Catelyn chapters, to the point where part of me had a hard time reading the chapters. When the red wedding happened, I was okay with it. I couldn't care less for Catelyn dying in the books. I didn't clap for her death as I did for Joffery though...
I totally agree that bood Catelyn and show Catelyn are completely different characters that happen to have the same name... Joffrey dying was truly enjoyable as sick as it makes me feel to say that...Catelyn's death was more bittersweet, because I liked Robb and was sad to see him go
I actually liked Robb at first but when he decided to marry whatsername in the TV show and defaulted on his promise to the Freys, I immediately thought to myself, "Robb, you have signed your own death warrant." In the book, Robb married Jeyne Westerling simply because she slept with him to comfort him during a vulnerable time. Robb inherited his mother's shortsighted thinking and poor decision making. That's why I ended up disliking Robb and was happy he was dead along with his mother in the Red Wedding.
Me, too. I ended up hating reading the Catelyn chapters in the books and couldn't wait to reach the part when she died so that I don't have to suffer through her POV chapters anymore.
Loved the vid, and the whole series so far! I think more and more that GRRM played D&D like a harmonica. They reversed the positions of Ned and Catelyn about him going south for the show. From their perspective, not wanting Ned to go south is a better fit for Catelyn's character, even though they stayed pretty close to the books early on. Martin asked D&D who Jon's mother was in their first meeting. They thought that he gave them a chance because they answered correctly. I wonder if he gave them a chance because they got it wrong. It always seemed out of place for him to let a show spoil the books that aren't written yet. I truly hope he played them, and all of us.
Thank you...we think it is likely that the show will, in fact, get back on the same page with George for a large majority of the story next season...George suspended all public appearances until TWOW comes out...the last time he did that A Dance with Dragons came out within months...we're hopeful that that incredibly vague "reveal" at the end of last season will be rectified with the immediate introduction of Aegon next season...there are 3 yet to be named characters cast that perfectly match Aegon, Lemore (Ashara), and Connington, which will drive ratings up with pure shock value
The Order of the Green Hand , not all but most. Martin will be at StokerCon (Long Beach, CA) in April and WorldCon (Helsinki, Finland) in August. Here's to hoping he doesn't add too many more!
come on! Are you really expecting the show to do a 180 like that and introduce these characters who have had no prior establishment? I mean, considering how Quaithe was introduced and subsequently erased from existence in the show, I doubt D&D are even going to acknowledge the wider ASOIAF world. Besides I really don't want to see these characters get the "good girl, bad pussy" treatment (RIP House Martell)
I know I've had critiques of other videos, but in this one, you guys missed the point by a country mile. Cat is the archetypal overprotective mother. All that she does, all that she cares about is to ensure the safety of her children. Tragically, all of her attempts end in ensuring the complete opposite. If your theory were correct, her coming back as Lady Stoneheart would be the most heavy handed development in the story and a great detriment to Martin's writing.
I think he brought her back as lady stoneheart because people completely missed how awful she is and he wanted to drive home the point...there is plenty to come on this topic...the woman is pure evil...she goes around with this holier than thou attitude and presents herself as what you described...but lady stoneheart is what she is really like under that facade
The Order of the Green Hand Then why the whole business about how long it takes to bring her back? You'll remember that Thoros specifically warns that people who have been dead for that long come back "different." If the point was to highlight that she was evil the whole way through, then what purpose would that fulfill when Arya/Nymeria could have gotten her out from the river the next day and the Brotherhood found her later in the same day? Martin has said that the most compelling story is to write about the human heart divided against itself. By your account, Cat's development is completely flat, not a person with good intentions who ultimately is lost in darkness. What's compelling about that?
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I respect your opinion, but I take that with a grain of salt. George R. R. Martin has defended Catelyn before, and has said that she doesn’t deserve the amount of hate being thrown at her. He has also explicitly stated that Lady Stoneheart was added to show how war changes people, not to “expose” her.
Yeah, she can't nag ned into becoming the hand, then complain when she realizes their kids would be heavily involved. I find her insufferable in both show and book.
Catelyn: Robert will think you oppose him you don't accept. Me: That is bullshit when you consider the Dornish why would Robert give a shit if Ned decides he wants to stay with his family
Rehan Chowdhury Hoster forced Lysa to have a miscarriage and likely affected her "fertility" the reason he force her to marry Jon Arryn. Robert was the only child to survive from their marriage.
Alright I never really liked her, never disliked her neither. This doesn't video doesn't change ANYTHING about that. How does this video prove cately sucks? She just doesn't like jon ( as he is the personifaction of Ned being unloyal towards her constantly shoved into her sight, of course Jon himself is innocent but her feelings are somewhat understandable )and wants the best for her own children... And there is nothing wrong about being manipulative. I mean who hasn't manipulated others towards helping you/ doing as you want them to do... Not saying she is a great character either. In game of thrones there simply aren't any purely good/ evil characters, JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE. Even Tyrion (one of my favs) and probably one of the nicest characters on the show has killed the woman he loved and his own father. The latter (Tywin) for example imo wasn't neither. Don't get into that black/white way of thinking when you're talking about GOT. Because like I said, no character is purely evil/ good and it all depends on how you look at it.
C'mon now. The letter and box were no conspiracy. They did originate from Lysa Arryn, Catelyn and Lewin didn't know the contents until Catelyn opened it and Catelyn interpreted the code faithfully. The idea for Jon going to the wall originated with Jon himself. Catelyn is guilty of providing (unknowingly what would turn out to be) really bad advice, disliking Jon, her mind wandering during sex, and improper draping in front of the Maester. Meanwhile, Lewin is guilty of nothing. ------ Overall my thoughts on Catelyn are that she is a sympathetic person who treats Jon poorly and makes a series of horribly disastrous decisions over the course of the books. I like TV Catelyn better than book Catelyn, HBO softens up her rough edges, but those changes, like most, were uninvited. But she has good intentions and does the best she can. I think she's generally honorable and decent and wins over Brienne with her inner strength and fortitude. Anyway, if you want to beat up on her there's a lot to work with but you'll have to do better than this. Seems unnecessarily petty.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand yes she was glad about getting rid of jon but that was purely emotional and nothing worked out in a conspiracy your just throwing shit in the room
Can you imagine the look on Catelyn's face if she was alive and IN WINTERFELL at the end of Season 6? She might have turned a darker shade of purple than Joffrey and died of a stroke as they proclaim "The King in the North." Oh and the Wildlings taking up residence in Winter fell as well.
@@lelanddupuy8296 in there othe videos they explain how they believe that Sahara is Jon’s true mother with Ned. But upon seeing lyannas child with Rhaegar it looked too Targaryen. They did a baby swap, Ashara faked her death and miscarriage and Rhayader’s and lyannas child is actually Aegon or as some people say faegon who is pretending to be Elias child. Sorry about any misspelling in the names. There theory is that the book and the show are very different entities.
Maybe only me have a thought that it's wrong to blame Catelyn. Ned used his wife to keep Jon safe, he used her anger to cover Jon's true identity. He could have revealed it to her to make her accept Jon, but he didn't. You tell me, do Catelyn deserve to suffer the thinking that her husband cheated on her? You don't know how bad it is until you get it, not to mention she is a honorable woman. To me it's Ned and Jon who got benefit from Cat's suffering. If Cat knew, she would treated Jon with love and care like her own child and Jon would be dead long ago. Catelyn mistreated Jon, yes, but it's Ned who should be blamed on. Catelyn was just a victim and I feel sorry for her. And beside, it's Littlefinger who started the war, he got Lysa killed Jon Arryn, sent fake message to Catelyn to create chaos between Stark and Lannister, lied to her that Tyrion was behind Bran's assassination, sooner or later there will be war, Tyrion's arrest was just the first gunfire. Fiance dead, husband cheated, watch her first son got killed, die thinking all her family was dead, she is the character who have to suffer pain throughout her life. She's strong and whatever she did she always put her family first. Cat represents The Mother in the seven.
Catelyn caused almost everything...Catelyn never showed herself to be trustworthy enough for Ned to talk to about his secrets...Catelyn presents herself as an honorable woman, but I can't think of any action she takes that has honor in it...she fails to do her duty every time...she didn't stay at home with her children which was her duty...then she goes to KL and tells the two least trustworthy people there what Ned will be up to when he arrives...then Ned gives her 5 specific things that must be done in case they go to war with the Lannisters and she does none of them and starts a war with the Lannisters...then she releases Jaime, even though she knows it will cause Robb serious problems with his bannermen...there is a lot more...she couldn't possibly be more different than you are describing...the character you are describing is show Catelyn, not book Catelyn
Quite frankly I find this video exaggerated. Every character has their flaws. Every character played a part that caused the war. To condemn her for everything is looking for a scape goat. Don't hate her cause you love Jon. See things from both their perspectives.
The Order of the Green Hand I've read the books at least 3 times before. I don't need to watch the video for my opinion to change on it. You're taking points and thinking, not outside the box, but outside the character. I can't relieve her of her wrongs, persisting Ned to go to Kings Landing being one, but I can make points to defend each of her actions. With every character there are pros and cons. You've only stated the cons and not flipping the other side of the coin.
The Order of the Green Hand Some find it awful enough that Catelyn does not show Jon affection, and has essentially been a distant figure to him his whole life. This is unfair. First it should be remembered that Jon never needed affection and love; his father, his siblings, old nan, maester luwin, ser rodrik, and likely a plethora of others at Winterfell cared for him. Jon was far from neglected. Catelyn had no obligation, moral or otherwise to be a primary carer for Jon. She did nothing to impede upon Jon's upbringing. The fact that she did this, given the context of Westerosi culture, says something positive about her character.
What's this about Ned already having a wife when he was forced to marry Catelyn? He wasn't even betrothed to anyone at that point. That's why his dad stayed home and let Ned and his siblings go to the tourney at Harrenhal. He wanted Ned and Benjen to make connections, meet other young people who might be good matches someday. Only Brandon and Lyanna were betrothed. Ned was too young to marry without his father's consent and he was too honorable to defy his father and run off to marry a girl in secret. Ned married Catelyn out of honor because she had been betrothed to his brother. All the contracts were written up and it wasn't Hoster Tully's fault Brandon had been killed. Besides, he knew that he'd need the Tulllys as allies in the rebellion. Out of curiosity, who was Ned supposedly married to? I don't see Hoster Tully or Maester Llewyn as manipulative at all. Besides, the Maester takes orders from the Castle Lord, not the Lady. He would not help her deceive him. Catelyn was a crazy Biatch but not some master schemer. I just don't see it.
Our videos, especially the ones we made early on, make a lot more sense if watched in order. We have a recommended order playlist if you’re interested. We’re pretty sure that Ned was married to Ashara
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Ned never thinks about Ashara even once throughout the first book. He had to be pushed to dance with her at the tourney and there is no evidence to suggest he was interested in her at all. One dance does not a romance make. I edited my post. Read what I said about him being honorable. He was too honorable to have sex with a young woman of noble birth if he wasn't married to her, either. And Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. If D&D hadn't guessed correctly, George R R Martin would never have let them make the show.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I disagree completely. First of all, he never mentions, never thinks of Ashara at all. The only person he thinks of (that is no longer around) are Brandon, his father, and Lyanna. Rhaegar is in his thoughts, even though he was neither part of his family, nor someone he cared about. But if he had been married to Ashara, you'd think he'd think of her at least as often as he thought of Lyanna. And exactly when did this supposed marriage take place? He went directly back to the reach with Robert after the Tournament ended. Had he married her while there, everyone would know about it as someone would have seen and then told someone else.. His dad didn't make the match and Ned wasn't the type to marry without his father's approval. He wasn't the rebellious type. Even if he *had* been, her father wouldn't have just let his daughter run off with Ned. Both their parents would have disowned them and he would have had no means of supporting the two of them.(except as a Hedge Knight ). I've heard this theory before, that Ashara was Jon Snow's mother, etc., but all this comes from the fact that he danced with Ashara at the Tourney... once. He danced with her just once, and a dance doesn't mean he was in love with her, let alone married her. There is just no evidence to support it.
I'm no fan of Catelyn, however I think this attempt to demonize her is unfair. While she is a b*tch for treating Jon like crap, Westeros culture especially the religion of the faith of the seven (which Catelyn is a devote follower) says that bastards will screw you over the first chance they get and they are the incarnations of their parents lust and desire. That said, Noble Lords keep having illegitimate kids and custom dictates that acknowledged bastards be looked after in some way, Catelyn knows all this and even says she was willing to overlook Ned having a dozen kids with other women so long as they were raised far and away from her own kids, which Ned doesn't do with Jon so it's an insult in Catelyn's perspective that Jon is raised in Winterfell where she has to see him almost every day. How many wives and mothers in the real world are on good terms with their husbands children they fathered out of wedlock? Also bastards can be legitimized by royal decree and Robert Baratheon is Ned's best mate. So all Ned would of had to do any day was write to King Robert and ask for Jon to be legitimized, then he becomes a threat to Catelyn's children's rights of succession. Her staying beside Bran after his fall and neglecting Rickon, boils down to what would we do in that situation if we thought one of our children might die? Would we carry on as if nothing was the matter or stay by said child no matter what? Her arrest of Tyrion and later his trial by combat is a major screw up on Catelyn's part, the later she tries to convince Lysa not to have happen seeing as things had gotten out of control, but she was only after the guy who tried to kill her son, would anyone else after their child had almost been murdered of just shrugged and said "oh well, time to move on." Her flaw though is trusting Littlefinger and forgetting or choosing to ignore that the guy was in love with her and she turned him down years ago. She thought of him as family even after her jackass of a father booted him from Riverrun she thought over the years he could still be trusted and took him at his word when Littlefinger pinned the dagger the Cat's Paw used on Tyrion. In summary Catelyn's greatest strength is her love for her family, though in the cut throat world of ASOIAF it can be a great weakness. GRRM writes characters with human strengths and weaknesses that (with a few exceptions) are not good guys or bad guys, just human beings who can love and hate, create or destroy, make good decisions one day and really bad ones the next, etc.
This video is to establish how manipulative she is capable of being...no one is saying she doesn't have a right to be upset about Jon being there...almost anyone would...that is fine...the way she treated Jon based on her not wanting him there was a bit ridiculous, having only used his name one time in 14 years, and that one time was to stop him when he was leaving to go to the wall so she could basically tell him that she wishes he was dead...that's crossing the line...she is getting what she wants...but that is not the only reason we don't like her...that's a small part...her actions are very sketchy...she didn't need to go to KL, but she did...she didn't need to beat Ned there, but she rushed down there and told LF and Varys everything Ned was going to be doing before he even arrived, right after thinking to herself that she doesn't fully trust LF and doesn't trust Varys at all...then Ned gives her 5 things to do that are vitally important in case they go to war with the Lannisters...does she do them? No...instead she starts a war with the Lannisters before they are ready, leaving Ned and her daughters surrounded by Lannisters with only a King that she has repeatedly said she does not trust between them and certain death...then she thinks to herself that her place is back at winterfell with her boys, then decides that she needs to be a part of Robbs army (her actions never line up with her thoughts on what would be best)...and think about it...Robb was already a very young battle commander...gaining these men's respect and keeping it was already going to be a tough task, but trying to do it with his mommy with him makes it impossible....then she gave the farm away in her negotiations with Walder Frey...then she stays with Robbs army even though he tries to send her home repeatedly...then the thinks that she doesn't trust Jaime or Tyrion to live up to their end of the bargain and that releasing Jaime will cause problems for Robb with his bannermen, and releases Jaime 5 minutes later...you can make excuses for her all you like, but the bottom line is she sucks
The funniest thing about your comment is the fact that you’re outraged that we’re right. The analysis of this chapter is already confirmed by George to be correct. And there’s nothing misogynistic about this video. It’s analysis of the actions of a female character, which I’m pretty sure is allowed
Holy shit this is just sad. You can't hear criticism of a fictional female without crying? It's not mens fault for whoever pissed you off you do realize?
I guess everyone has their flaws but we must admit, Catelyn does have a strong sense of honor and family. Plus I don't think she would stoop as low as Cersei and have her husband killed or have an incestuous relation ship with her brother.
for all intents and purposes, she did have Ned killed...he was leaving KL but was attacked in the streets, which resulted in his leg getting shattered because she's a moron and started a war with him surrounded by enemies...if she didn't take Tyrion, he would have beaten her home, assuming he booked them passage on a good ship
she's also the one who convinced Ned to trust LF/gave him no choice but to work with him because she told him everything before Ned even got to KL...I think we all know how that worked out
Catelyn is a flawed but very likable character . She did not start the war . Tywin did . He's the one who invaded Riverlands . Tyrion's abduction , though a diplomatic misfire , is not sufficient pretext to cause a war . What Tywin should have done is to go to the King and plead that he release Tyrion . Instead , Tywin ordered entire kingdom to be invaded by rapists , mercenaries , thieves , arsonists and all around monsters for a son , who he emotionally abuses and has physically and sexually abused in the past and who he later tried to kill thrice !!!!!!!
Thinking that a woman who was forced into a political marriage should be doe-eyed and besotted while her husband has rough sex with her is kind of wild.
8:40 I respect your opinion, but I disagree. I believe it was written this way to add emphasis to the “knock”. It’s like in Daredevil, where everyone refers to the bombing of Hell’s Kitchen as “the incident”. That doesn’t mean the characters expected it to happen. It seems that Catelyn was recounting what happened. “The knock” basically changed all of their lives, so it makes sense why she would use “the” instead of “a”.
I have to say, you guys don't get the depth of suffering for Catelyn as a mother or wife raised to be in aristocrat in a fuedal medieval environment, which GRRM has explicitly stated his inspiration comes from The War of the Roses. She and Cersei are like to King Henry VI's Queen Margaret of Anjou. Queen Margaret of Anjou was coined the wolf queen because of the extent that she went to, to protect her child Edward, and her husband King Henry who was ineffective as a king. It was a game of thrones then, as it is in Martin's story. I'm a mother, I don't have the ambitions or expectations that Catelyn does, but I want my children to be alive and happy. It's a fairly basic fundamental aspiration. But in the above mentioned situation, if my daughters were Sansa and Arya, I would keep my eye on people around them like a hawk. Us plebs in modern normal life could not understand this threat to our children like aristocratic people. I'm sorry I don't agree with this topic of yours. Perhaps before making generalizations about characters that suck, you should find out that they have suffering and expectation that none of us could ever comprehend. Martin creates characters that are human that have goodness and flaws, in each and every one of them. You don't mention that she was betrothed to Ned's older brother before he was killed by the mad King Aerys, and so her betrothed defaulted to Ned. You don't mention that she was in love with Ned's brother. You don't mention that Ned was in love with Ashara Dayne, but because he was betrothed to Catelyn he had to return. Ashara Dayne flung herself from her castle wall because of the love she bore Ned. Ned could be his own worst enemy but he rather choose pain of a lie to Catelyn than to see the reprecussion of admitting to Robert that his sister loved Rhaegar and had a child to him.
We didn't think we needed to explain stuff that everyone watching theory videos already knows...yes her heart was broken when Brandon died, which might be why she was so upset when her son Brandon almost died, but the point of this video was to establish how manipulative she is capable of being, and that her intentions are not clear without taking a closer look at her chapters...
The Order of the Green Hand I wondered if you do these videos to provoke other points of views and discussion and I realised that's what you're doing. Sorry for above, I'll keep my mind a bit more open lol (and thanks for response!) =)
If the knock is Catelyn's doing why does she describe it as "unexpected"? If Catelyn knows whats in the box why does she "stir with dread" at its introduction? If Catelyn had planned the box and letter, why do "the words make no sense to her"? Why, if we are seeing the story from Catelyn's perspective, do we not see her conciously manipulate as we do in Tyrion or Cersei chapters? Is she such a keen manipulator that she has the reader fooled as well? This is such a tin hat reading of the chapters that you have to disengenuously present it to avoid the gaping holes in the interpretation. Of course she hates Jon and his presence at Winterfell since he is a constant reminder of Ned's infidelity. Your weird insistence that she hates Jon because he could contest Robb's claim is undermined by her saying that she would have been fine if Ned had a dozen bastards anywhere else in the world but Winterfell. You should probably also look up the definition of psychopath as well, Catelyn is full of love for her family and regret for the mistakes she makes. Lack of love and remorse are the defining traits of psychopaths. You have chosen to rag on the one POV character in the entire story that displays the least psychopathy.
No they’re right, cat is not a good person. She’s manipulative, kiniving, possessive, selfish..-and that’s all just from this chapter. If we start getting into later chapters u gotta throw treasonous in there (against king Robert and her own son king robb). She only cares about what she cares about and is willing to go to any lengths to get it. She will kidnap people, have people killed, let people get killed. Tyrion even saves her life while he’s being kidnapped and she doesn’t even say thank u or relent; I believe her exact words are “I trust you no more than I did before”, to a guy who just went out of his way to save her life. It’s trifling to say the least
What's the content? Was it dictated by Baelish like Jon Arryn's murder? Let's not forget how Cat has seemingly forgotten about Lysa's pregnancy while they were at Riverrun. Say what you want, but there is no way she didn't know if she and Lysa were close enough to have a twin language.
Cersei tries to kill off all of Robert's children, Frey butchers his guests, Varys actively destroys the peace in Westeros and don't even get me started on Joff and Ramsay but Catelyn is literally Satan for not wanting to raise Ned's bastard who might one day threaten the claim of her own children in Winterfel. I guess the bias exist because Catelyn's "evil" is something people have dealt with in real life in the form of a bad step parent but still calling her the worst is kind of a stretch.
+Fuwa Time that is so far from being the point of this video. This video simply established that she is more than capable of being extremely manipulative. The reasons she's the worst is just about everything she does following this chapter
Catelyn is a one woman wrecking ball aimed at the heart of House Stark. It’s not clear whether she’s doing it on purpose or is just the single most incompetent character in the series but those are the facts nonetheless
I think you guys have to check your perspective on this... Catelyn is no better or worse than anyone else in this story. She, like Cersei, is a loving mother who would do anything for her children. But Catelyn isn't a raging psycho like Cersei! Oh, and as for that sex scene, where you're so offended that her mind wandered... It happens. They're married, they've had a lot of sex. It's not always going to be beautiful movie-scene love making. Typical for a man to be complaining about that, too! Like how dare she not be fully attentive to her husband when he's horny! Shame on her! *Eye roll*
first of all, the sex scene part of the analysis is literally the least important part of the video, and Catelyn is not a loving mother...a loving mother wouldn't abandon her 7 year old crippled son and 3 year old so she can pretend she is a necessary part of her son's army, and keep watching...a loving mother also would have said goodbye to her daughters, whereas it is unclear if she ever spoke to either of them ever again after Bran's fall and we know she didn't say goodbye to them...Catelyn is literally the most blood soaked character in the entire story...tens of thousands of deaths were caused by her actions and she never even feels bad about it or even thinks about it, including Ned and Robb's deaths...all her children are either dead or in the hands of the most evil people in the story because she decided she wanted to "help"...I could go on for hours about how misguided your views of her character are but instead I'll refer you to parts 2-5, where we outline just how ridiculous her character is and it is difficult to notice because the only assessment we ever get of her actions comes from her
She left Winterfell to help save her daughters! Her youngest sons were safe up north but the girls, as far as she knew it was both of them, were being held captive at King's Landing. In the clutches of the Lannisters, who Catelyn knew tried to kill Bran. She did what she thought she had to, to get her daughter's back. Ugh, it's pointless to argue an opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree. But, I will say this, just because the sex scene part was 'so unimportant' doesn't mean it wasn't stupid. I can't deal with you shaming her for not being as present minded as you deem appropriate during sex.
she left Winterfell because she determined that she needed to go tell Ned about the catspaw, when literally any other person would have been a better choice, like every person in the room with her told her...she then decided that she needed to beat Ned there, so she takes a boat and beats him there by a few days...days she spent with LF...when she arrived, LF summoned her, and instead of being surprised, she thinks "so soon," which absolutely tells the reader that she was expecting to be summoned by LF, but not that soon...she then, even though the thought directly before she decided to speak was that she has little trust in LF and none in Varys, tells both of them everything Ned will be up to before he even arrives...then when Ned does arrive she convinces him to trust LF...then Ned tells her he is going to take care of everything and he needs her to go home and take care of 5 vitally important things that must be done in case there is a war with the Lannisters, and instead of doing what Ned told her had to be done, she, after thinking to herself that they are not ready for war, started a war by taking Tyrion...did she ever do any of those 5 things? No. then Ned, who is about to leave KL for good, gets ambushed in the streets and his leg is crushed...he wakes up back as the hand of the king and has to hold court for Robert while he hunts, only to find out that he now has to send nearly half his household guard with Beric Dondarion to try to clean up Catelyn's mess in the Riverlands...at this point Catelyn looses Tyrion, and LF (the man she brought into Ned's inner-circle) betrays Ned... instead of going home and recognizing that she is the most incompetent person in westeros, she decided that she needed to appoint herself Robb's chief war councilor, which of course was a big help because every 14-15 year old battle commander wants to have his mommy with him...nothing endears a leader to his troops more than the sight of him with his mommy...fast forward...at a time when Robb's tenure as King in the North was never more vulnerable, she frees his ace in the hole, freeing Jaime, which in turn allowed Tywin to set his Bolton-Frey betrayal in motion, which he never would have risked with Jaime a captive of Robb's...Need I say more? at any point in there did she do anything that resembled something that would help her family? No...her 3 year old ended up being raised by a direwolf and a wildling woman on an island inhabited by cannibals...her 7 year old crippled son is in a cave surrounded by whites and creepy Children of the Forest...Arya is with the Faceless Men...and Sansa is with LF...results matter and her results are the blood of tens of thousands of people on her hands and her children are all in peril and House Stark, a house that has ruled for 1000s of years, was nearly wiped off the face of the earth after a mere 15 years of her being a part of it....those aren't opinions, those are facts, and as John Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things."
Lol! God, I cant even say how many times my mind has wandered during sex. "Hmmmm, I wonder if I should have left that corset on." "I wonder what my brother is doing tomorrow. Maybe I can borrow his fishing rod and net later". "How long has it been? Is this guy done yet?"
OK, but tell us how you REALLY feel! I think the interpretation of her sex scene may be a little unfair. First of all, if the sex is so bad that she's dissociating, that's clearly not her fault. But later she reflected warmly on the feeling inside after Ned finished. Maybe she was happy, but tired, her mind drifting. Has your mind ever drifted while having sex with a long-term partner? Even for a second, to un-sexy things? Even if it's enjoyable, it's probably much the same over the years. Like a scenic route to work, it can be beautiful and comfortable but not particularly compelling or exciting very often any longer. I think the case could be made against Catelyn without this bit, honestly, and actually it sort of primes me to think you're going to take the worst possible interpretation of Cat's actions just because. I say, a case is best presented slightly understated. I'm still probably gonna watch the rest, though, because yeah, plenty of the other criticisms are valid. And who doesn't enjoy a good roast!
I agree that her mind drifting wouldn't be abnormal in the real world, but the fact that George decided to give us the one and only intimate scene between Ned and Catelyn in this manner is significant
My friend suggested this channel to me and I'm glad she did. All I did after the audio book of ASOIAF, was bitch to her about what a twisted woman Catelyn was. My friend laughed at me and said to check out your channel...three months later, here I am. I LOVE it and subbed like a mofo. I'm starting on book four of the audio books, but it'll have to wait while I binge watch these videos. Tee hee, I'm EXCITED.
So you think she's been scheming to send Ned and Jon away, so that she and Luwyn could rule the North? It is true that she doesn't show much love for Ned during that sex scene, but... Also, what are you implying by stressing that she burned the message? That she made it up or something? Yet we know that Lysa actually sent her a message stating what she actually tells Ned.
We ran out of time for the reason why she burned it. It'll be in part 2. And no, she schemed to get Ned to go to Kings Landing because she knew Ned couldn't bring Jon and planned to use that to get rid of him and get him to the wall, where he would take the black and never be a threat to her children and their dominion over Winterfell.
Wow, after so many years, I know Catelyn is a deranged maniac who was so soulless, so lifeless that I'd even thought Cersei was a better wife than her at certain areas but this kinda opened my eyes on a new level. And this brings be back to Lady Dustin's remarks about maesters! Fuckign scoundrels
I think cats thoughts during the bedroom scene were just martins way of putting backround information into the book about winterfell maybe not the best place but cat is doing her duty (giving ned heirs) as in westeroes women dont marry for want but for duty and it brings back the tully words family duty honour with riverrun and lysa and edmure in my opion thats how i see it
thank you, thank you and thank you. I never liked Cat since that chapter in game of thrones. you guys absolutely right about her and can't wait to the next part
hi! we are trying to decide if we should do a Wars to Come video next or a Catelyn Sucks Part 2. I am trying to figure out a way to see if we can have people vote on it, but so far I have been unsuccessful. haha but I'd say in the next week or 2. Thank you for watching! :)
YYYYYAAAASSSSSSS!!!! All the wins for this. 1st off, kudos for the bold all caps TULLY. I almost always refer to her as Catelyn Tully. As me and my friends say in our vids, #ICantWithCatelynTully. She just knew she was going to get to be a lady of the South again smh. One of the biggest things that gets me with her is her treatment of Jon. She prayed for this boy to die and then lost her nerve and made a promise to give him a mother's love if he lived. Well, Jon lived. And what did she do? Proceeded to call him Bastard every day of his life, with the exception of telling him that he should've fallen out the window instead of Bran. 'Eyeroll'. We all know how well that worked for her; the Gods don't like ugly. Random tinfoil: I think her biggest problem is that Ned's bastard looks like more of a Stark than her own bastard does. Yes, I just called Robb a bastard. Its one of the lesser known/popular tinfoil theories out there, but I like it and think its true. Looking forward to the rest of this series. Well done to both of you :)
Thank you...we think all of Catelyn's children are bastards...but not for the same reason people think Robb is. We looked at that very closely, but Catelyn on more than one occasion has thoughts that make it impossible...the best example is when she thinks to herself that Ned spent a fortnight with her and went back to the war, but left her with a son...another time she was watching Robb with his army and thinks to herself that his father taught him well...another time she thought how like his father, he is a good listener, and based off of what we know of Brandon's boisterous personality, that seems impossible, and a lot is made about the difference between maidenhood and maidenhead, but there is really no difference...maidenhood is the state of being an unwed virgin, and maidenhead is the virginity itself...she recalls Ned taking her maidenhood...She also thinks about her and Ned making a king together (Robb being the King)...if she said all those things I'd be inclined to doubt her, especially since I hate her and would love to have another reason to hate her, but I just don't see it as a real possibility
I think the analysis of the first passage you read was a bit hollow. After 17 years of marriage and giving him 5 children, she’s supposed to be in Hallmark movie romance mode every single night they’re together? Plus it’s undermined by the very next passage where it’s stated she hopes do bear him another child. If a woman had no care for her husband she wouldn’t be to concerned with that, especially since she already gave him 5, including 3 sons. She even is saddened that she won’t be near him when Ned tells her she must stay in Winterfell.
It was Ned’s advice that Catelyn attempted to pass off as her own after insulting and belittling Robb enough times for him to be completely uninterested in anything she had to say. If she really wanted to stop it from happening she would have tried more than once or had her uncle talk to Robb
I’m a little confused. It was among the final orders Ned sent to the North. If Catelyn told Robb it was what his father ordered to be done it would have almost certainly been well received. She had just immaculated him in front of a few of his lords to the point that even her idiot brother told her to back off. Then the next time she saw him she argued with him about Theon going. She was right, but she had already worn out her welcome. That’s what happened. You can laugh if you want but facts are facts and no amount of laughing is going to change them
The character is so well constructed, that you can identify an hysterical personality, you can see it with her impulsive actions, like releasing Jaime.
@@pushista9322 Why on Earth? Her husband and two youngest sons got killed, one of her daughters is a hostage/captive, and the other is lost and thought dead. Her father is dying (or maybe had already died at that point, can't recall), and her sister had forsaken them for the safety of the Vale. The war was going poorly and Winterfell had been sacked, and I think Victarion had already taken Moat Cailin at that point too. She's deep in grief, mourning what amounts to basically her entire family. If you really can't fathom why a mother would do such a thing then you simply lack empathy and/or have never gone through such circumstances.
@@veila0924 Yes, yes, that's what everyone around Catelyn said. "Mother's madness". But I also remember how she "reluctantly let go of Sansa and Arya in her heart" back in book one, when she sent them to Kingslanding. So she didn't care about them back then (sending them to the family of murderers, which were the Lannisters, to the best of her knowledge).
lol backing up your opinion using every word of her POV chapter. y'all could do these for any other characters that garner your strong opinions with POV chapters. theon? bran? Jon?
Wow, such eye opening content. It's truly shocking how most of this is right that in front of the readers eyes but we get caught up in the reading the story to really see what is going on. I am once again blown away by GRRM and his intricate writing, the layer upon layer upon layer of story and scheme truly seems to best match reality. I am so glad you are questioning the narrative and making these videos for us to share your observations. It's funny to me how obvious some of this is once you point it out, you both are gifted in analytical reading I think. Bravo!
Thank you so much...it is truly amazing how much of this stuff slips right past you the first time you read it...he is like a magician...while he has you looking at one hand, the real magic is happening in the other
The problem is that Catelyn is the epitome of a Southern Lady of Westeros. What we find despicable and disturbing is normal, even acceptable, for her. What she finds disruptive and disrespectful is what we consider normal. Westeros is an unjust world, and Catelyn is the result of that injustice. She is classist, racist, ambitious, condescending to certain people, but also loving, delicate, and diplomatic. Her husband, then her son, has complete power over her. She loves them and wants what’s best for them, but her love is warped by her ambitions, forced upon her by her society. Also, am I the only one concerned when Ned left “red marks” on her arm?
cat is definitely pyshco.... she quick to let go of her girls but fights for her son because she knows that her sons inherit before the daughters....oh and the fact that she's cruel to jon repeatly even up to the day he leaves shoes how messed up this chick is. I'm diggin this channel
teebaby0486 there is also the fact that when robb tried to legitimize jon she fought against pretending that some fuckboy from the vale was going to be the king of the north the only thing that guy was going to do was surrender and keep winterfell for himself or get murdered and it end up in tyrions hands.
I remember people thought I was stupid for saying Catelyn was a bitch in many ways! I supplied evidence but they always rebutted it with "oh she was grief striken." or "oh she was doing it for her family." and I'm just like: "can't you see she LITERALLY starts a god damn war?????" and people say "Oh it was ALL Baelish!"
grimmitachi the taking of Tyrion Lannister, that was a plain act of war taking the son of Tywin Lannister, a challenge to his House, Catelyn started a war because she felt like it, plain and simple.
you actually made it more confusing for me. Isn't it Jamie's fault for pushing her son off a tower? Is it Bran's for loving to climb so much? You left me with more questions than answers.
grimmitachi Sure, Jaime is the one to blame for Bran's problem, but, it all could have been good if Catelyn kept her head and asked Tyrion about the knife or something, instead she chose the route that would lead to violence.
I agree for the most part. She seemed to care about her family and only that, in that regard she's not much better than Cersei. She had ambitions for her husband becoming Hand, for Sansa's marriage, and an unjustified hate for Jon Snow. Someone quick to call others 'Oathbreakers' (Jaime, the Freys), while ignoring the oath her own son broke (Robb's betrothal). Plus, releasing Jaime was abouth the third worst decision after Ned telling Cersei his plans and Robb's marriage.
She’s actually pretty nice in the books. You gotta remember she’s in grief for a lot of the time. (and might I add, GRRM’s portrayal of grief in Catelyn is the most realistic portrayal of grief I’ve ever read)
People don't like her because she's a selfish hypocrite that only cares about her family and no one else. When her daughter's were under Lannister control she lets Jaime go, then has the AUDACITY to look down on Lord Karstark for grieving over his dead sons? Saying something along the lines of: "Your sons are dead my daughter's still have a chance." Despite the fact that she had no idea if they really were and despite the fact that she had no reason to believe the Jaime who she'd already been suspecting of being the one who pushed Bran. She's almost like a character that was placed in the books to keep the story going because nearly all major story beats tie into her B.S. at one point or another. Ned going to KL Hating Jon Capturing Tyrion. Getting the Vale involved. Freeing Jaime. The Red Wedding. No other character in this book series has f*cked up the amount of times she has ... Well except the Mad King but that's saying something lol.
@@EL-ISS Catelyn and Stoneheart have different thoughts. Catelyn sees her dead kids as dead kids. She can’t fix that. But she can try to save the alive ones. Karstark (in her eyes) caused the death of her daughters by seeking vengeance for his dead kids, who are *dead.* she never has anything for him grieving, except for the fact that he kills two lannister children. Cant imagine Lannisters would be too happy to trade sansa in after that. Jaime was her last resort. And thing is, she was right! If Jaime had arrived in time, he would have saved Sansa, at least.
@@atree9284 that works on IFs though, see how in war time you can't work on IFs. IF Jaime had made it. IF Cat hadn't captured Tyrion IF she would've just stayed in the Vale. I love the Stoneheart character though, she works because it's the sheer hatred Cat has made flesh which is sick. But I'm not gonna be hypocritical and say it's only Cat who infuriates me. A lot of the Stark men if not all of the are honourable to a fault which gets them killed.
@@EL-ISS i mean you can have your opinion. But everything is an if in situations like this. This was literally her best choice. Cersei said she would kill Sansa if Robb won.
@@atree9284 that's fair, and I get your opinion as well lol. Not here to try and change your mind on a character you enjoy. I just like talking about this stuff hahaha.
Yes, Caitlyn is not the most likeable character, she's jealous, overly proud, selfish, a bad mother who regularly sends Robb/Arya/Jon on massive guilt trips and clearly has her favorite children, but to say she's the worst person ever is so grossly exaggerrated it's infuriating. She made plenty mistakes that came back to bite them, but she also made many good decisions, such as advising Robb not to send Theon to treat with Balon Greyjoy, or advise Robb not to marry Jeyne Westerling for example. She clearly has an agenda, which is to support her children and herself and get them into positions of power but she's never the worst person in the series when you have child rapists and killers like Raff, torturers Ramsay, wicked schemers like Littlefinger and a host of other endless bad guys like the Mountain, Vargo, Armory Lorch, Euron, those nasty kingsguard soldiers etc. Caitlyn is the epitome of 'the way to hell is paved with good intentions'
What good decisions? I can't think of one...she isn't sadistic like the people you mentioned, but that doesn't make her a better person...and if you look at her thoughts and her actions, it is very hard to say she had good intentions
How does she not have good intentions. She came to the conclusion Tyrion sent the assassin to kill Bran and captured him to avenge her son, not realizing she was set up. She knows Sansa wants to marry Joff and become a queen so she tries her best to make that happen. She knows Robb wants to avenge Ned and does her utmost to support him and gives him good advice (Theon, Jeyne), she tries to make peace between the Baratheon brothers so they can crush the Lannisters together, she gets Walder Frey to send his army to support them, she saw that Brienne didn't kill Renly and tries to stand up and protect her, she knows Littlefinger loved her and asks him to support and protect Eddard for her sake, she wants to save her daughters and releases Jaime to make that happen. She risked her life to protect Bran from that assassin in Winterfell and sits by his side day and night while he's unconscious. She tries to make the right decisions to push her agenda (which is to support and protect her children and make them happy) but often makes the wrong decisions to get there which gets her family in more trouble instead, because she's too impulsive and emotional which frequently clouds her judgement and makes her short-sighted. Like I said, the way to hell is paved with good intentions. It's only after LS that she turns into a true monster without remorse, a mother's vengeful spirit that has lost everything and lived only for revenge.
Like I said before...look at her thoughts on a topic, then look at what she does...she is not deranged like cersei...she does things that someone as smart as her knows what the consequences for those she loves will be, and we know that because she thinks it before she does things...then she does them anyways
Hindsight is 20/20, I agree that many of her decisions backfired. Also, sorry about this text wall, I'm bored. But where do you conjure up that she has malicious thoughts? Even in this very video she frequently admits to being scared and how much she loves Ned. And the whole thing about her and the Maester setting Ned up is entirely based on assumptions, without any evidence whatsoever. If Cait had planned to set up Ned or something like that, she'd have thought about it, just like Cersei does in her own chapters. When Cersei wants to get somebody in trouble she thinks about it and then acts, that's what POV chapters are for. So if Cait had set anything up, she'd at least have thought about it as well (which she never hinted at once. Your only arguments are that Luwin took the box apart, and that they 'might' have been able to set something up because they have history together and Ned was at his meeting. But there is no mention of her actually harboring any ill will). That's the whole purpose of POV chapters, to give the reader an idea what the character 'actually' is thinking. Or are you saying she has two separate minds, one happy facade for the reader and one malicious and dark one she hides from the reader/isn't even aware of herself? Because, and this is a fact, in none of her chapters does she ever harbor bad intentions towards her own family. She always repeats her love for her children and Ned and most of her major decisions are with that in mind. When she frees Jaime she doesn't think about Karstark rebelling and Robb having to behead him, she thinks about freeing her daughters and that she is prepared to bear the shame of a traitor if she must in order to see her daughters again. When she treats with the Freys she could never have fathomed those would eventually end up betraying her, because the Freys only start plotting against Robb once he marries Jeyne, which Cait was extremely against. Prior to that the Freys were a real asset in the war thanks to Cait. When she captures Tyrion it's recently after she concluded he was the mastermind behind the assassin in Winterfell (LF set her up and claimed it was Tyrion's dagger during her visit in KL), and since she just was on her way back from King's Landing (where LF had promised her to look out for Ned for her sake, and she knows LF still loves her) she felt reasonably safe to kidnap Tyrion right then and there to avenge Bran herself. In her mind that was the only chance to capture Tyrion as he'd be untouchable once he returns to King's Landing or Casterly Rock. Not to mention, as far as she knew, Ned supposedly had the City Watch on his side along with his own soldiers, if LF had kept his promise. (which, again, she stated multiple times she trusted in. The thought of LF betraying Ned never entered her mind). Kidnapping Tyrion and trusting LF were her biggest mistakes, and the most naive ones. But she was a mother traumatized by her son having been pushed off a tower (and being in a coma) and subsequently attacked by an assassin where she had to risk her life to protect him. Of course she'd act impulsive and emotional when suddenly confronted with the supposed killer while she has the larger force. Anybody would. And knowing consequences doesn't necessarily stop somebody from doing something, especially when emotions are involved. When a father kills his daughter's rapist he knows the consenquences for him and still does it. When I don't do homework I know I'll get in trouble next day and still don't do them. Jon knows he can't leave the Watch and still wants to in order to save 'Arya' from Ramsay, being fully aware of the consequences.
The victory must be won for children's sake.
Robb: Brutally murdered
Bran: Lost in magic land
Arya: Turned into an assassin
Rickon: Lost in a cannibal island
Sansa: Walking around with a pedophile who set up her families death
Hahahaha! Winning!
The Order of the Green Hand her form of winning is odd
Well when Catelyn plays the game of thrones...
The Order of the Green Hand all the good guys suffer
So?
SO WAIT, in the book, Ned wants to refuse Robert and Catelyn tells him not to..whereas in the show Catelyn is the one who tells him to refuse Robert?
The show really went out of their way to make Catelyn more likeable
The Order of the Green Hand - Fortuately they cast Michelle Fairely who has a history on my side of the pond for playing unlikable characters. I don’t know what her reputation is in the North America.
After Bran's fall, she changes her mind and begs Ned to stay since things have changed
D&D are crazy about Catelyn for some reason, so they tried to salvage her image for the show. Maybe Michelle Fairley wasn't interested in playing a total bitch?
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Well they failed with me, because of her I waited for the red wedding with joy
Anyone else love Ned using Catelyn's own argument against her? When he voices that he's not exactly thrilled at Sansa being bethrothed at eleven, she says that she was only a little older when she was betrothed to Brandon. And when she tries to get him to leave Bran at Winterfell, she says he's too young, only for Ned to say that he was only a little older than Bran when he was fostered.
Well found.
Yup. Both numbers only 1 year older too.
This explains a lot as to why Ned never told Catelyn about Jon. In the show, she seemed very loving and loyal to Ned and i figured the only reason he didnt tell her about Jon was so she would always act cold toward him and no one would ever suspect he wasnt Ned's. But this version of Catelyn is clearly not trusted by Ned even though Ned may not be able to admit that to himself.
He just couldn't take the chance that she might slip up and say something. Also, people would become suspicious if she suddenly started being kind to Jon.
Shakespeare once said "Two may keep a secret, if one of them is dead"
It's also none of her business that Jon is not his son. Yes it bothers her greatly and his presence throws shame on Ned and his honor, as well as the trust he shares with Catelyn because how can she trust him if he's not willing to address the elephant in the room, but ultimately it is a matter of Jon's safety and by keeping it a secret he's also protecting himself from her making any suggestions as to what might be right for him or not.
Also he kinda promised his sister he'd keep him safe and how can he assure that if he talks about it? A secret is best kept alone
@Ool13 Konu if he truly trusted her completely then he would have told her the truth about Jon. He didn't tell her, so therefore he didn't completely trust her. It's not difficult to understand.
@@runtergerutscht4401 Atleast two other people know of Jon, Benjen and Howard
@@tixxoncraft who's howard, and what's the confirmation on this?
This explains why Ned couldn't trust to tell her the truth about Jon's birth parents.
I don't think Ned could trust her with much of anything
"a boy with a bastard's name"? Why didn't Ned just say "bastard"? Perhaps Ned slipped a bit, if he's not actually a bastard but just has a bastard's name.
I think I love you right now
Jesus H. Christ every word of these books is a damn riddled out meaningfest.
Glockler that is such a fantastic observation and understated comment
Exactly, it is foreshadowing
It may have been intentional. I myself sometimes tell purposeful half-truths to avoid using a lie, since I dislike lying even for a good reason (though I still will). Being able to turn it into a half-truth makes it easier to stomach, and I suspect Ned feels the same way.
Did you notice that in Catelyn 1 when she is telling Ned of Jon Arryn's death she says that the letter had the Baratheon seal and was in Robert's handwriting, so I would assume it was addressed to Ned but Catelyn was allowed to open it and read it. But when Ned reaches out for Lysa Arryn's letter in Catelyn 2 Maester Luwin won't give it to him because it is addressed to Catelyn. Just an interesting thought about something being in that letter that Ned was not supposed to see.
what bothers me the most is NED is the lord Luwin serves...he gives Ned's letter to Cat, and refuses to let Ned see the secret letter hidden in the box...Cat doesn't mention it saying it's for her eyes only on that outside of the letter...she only makes note of the seal...the whole scene is a mummer's show
since maester luwin delivered "all of " catelyns children, Robb - who was born in riverrun - is included. this means Luwin probably first served as maester in Riverrun. This is supported by Lady Ryswell who claims Maester Walys was encouraging Eddards father to Marry Brandon to Catelyn , which means he was proably still Maester when Rickard and Bran went south.
in conclusion Luwin is probably more loyal to catelyn than Eddard.
@@hmhmoinsdk oh 100% on that. He was the maester of riverrun while she grew up and was sent to winterfell with her to watch over her and newly born Robb, and since maester walys of winterfell dipped out he stayed up north and was definitely team catelyn all the way.
Ned can't READ Lysa's letter! Luwin gives it to the only person who CAN! Also, Lysa was sending a private letter, just for her sister. Robert's letter could and probably would have been addressed to Ned formally, in his capacity as Lord of Winterfell. Important guys get a lot of mail. Catelyn is kind of doing the job of an assistant, filtering it to see what Ned really needs to know. We see that Ned trusts Catelyn to act in his name and as his agent. There's nothing subversive about her screening his mail.
@@brandocalrissian3294 No, there was another maester, Kym, who prepared Lysa's abortifacient. This was following Brandon's duel with Petyr, so Luwin would not have been the maester of Riverrun for any amount of time. What is just as likely is that Luwin came south with Ned & his army, and Ned left him to care for his new wife, or sent him back to Riverrun when he learned that Catelyn was pregnant, because they'd have a bunch of maesters with the army. Possibly including Kym. Maybe he and Hoster were discussing whose maester should go back to be with Cat and Ned would have insisted on his guy, Luwin, because it's his heir they're talking about, and Catelyn's going to have to get used to him anyway.
I might have left this message last time I watched this but :
"Brandon would know what to do, he always did."
Well except for that time he yelled for the crown prince to come out and die.
He knew what to do then. It just turned out he knew wrong.
@@victoriah9421😂😂😂
@@victoriah9421Oh what a burn!
Catelyn's cruelty towards Jon was enough to make me loathe her. Her anger at Ned is understandable, if not justified*, and she could even be forgiven for not _liking_ Jon.
However, she goes out of her way to be cruel to an innocent child, and even plots to send him to a penal colony, so she could get murdered at her own brother's wedding, or something, for all I care.
*if you need an example of the danger posed by an ambitious bastard, just look at what happened with Ramsay.
You know the show even vindicates her fears, while adding content to rebuke her for not loving him. At the end of Season 6, Jon is acclaimed King in the North, while standing RIGHT NEXT TO Catelyn's daughter, the rightful heir to Winterfell and the family member most responsible for the defeat of the Boltons and restoration of Stark rule. Ned keeping Jon close, raising him as a son and making sure the whole world knew he was Ned's son, is how Jon has enough of a rep to be accepted as a successor to the Stark lordship and exactly the thing Catelyn wanted to avoid.
And yes, her treatment of Jon is completely wrong, but its a case of society telling her there is something inherently wrong about Jon, plus giving her husband absolute power in the family, leading to her taking out her frustrations with the situation against Jon, because she can't direct the blame where it really belongs, to Ned.
Caitlyn understands southern politics, not northern men. The two are as different as the seasons. Jon would not have claimed Winterfell unless all other Stark lords were dead. Ned knew it, Robb knew it. Caitlyn would not listen and her choices brought ruin to Winterfell.
you mean like when Ramsay definitely didn't kill Domeric?
no823543 Ramsay didn’t kill domeric. Don’t believe everything you hear.
@@no-un3cb / To be fair, Ramsey is a cruel boy from a cruel family while Jon is a quiet if somber boy who never had anything but love and respect for his siblings and father.
Catelyn had no reason to treat Jon like a violent mongol who was waiting for the first chance to slit his brothers throats, Jon was just a child and she treated him like a criminal.
@@no-un3cb Ramsey's an absolute sociopath though in all fairness. He's not the norm and especially not like Jon.
She doesn’t know southern politics, she just thinks she does.
6:40 The image of Ned Stark flipping the bird was something I never knew I needed
thank you
At least Cersei and Olenna have the balls to be who they are; Catelyn hides behind her husband's reputation and pretends to be something she's not. I can't help but despise Catelyn for the way she treated Jon Snow, either.
Jennifer Brewer 1000000000 likes
Also, Cersei and Olenna have more charm and are entertaining to read and watch.
Jennifer Brewer so in otherwords she’s acting like a true andal
I really can't hate Catelyn for hating Jon. I mean, it sounds evil, yeah, but she's human, and humans err and George likes to write about how no one's perfect and everyone makes human mistakes.
Alexandro Sánchez but she has a whole bastard that ned cared for and loves. yet she cant do the same with aegon like wtf is wrong w the bitch. plus shes super emotionally, almost as bratty as daenerys
She was also cruel when the Young Wolf decided to legitimise his brother. She completely opposed Robb's decision. She even went on to suggest a distant Royce cousin in the vale to inherit Winterfell. lol How cruel is that?
She's almost always stone-hearted...we actually think George brought her back to life because people liked her too much and he didn't want them to like her so he brought her back to drive home how evil she is
Yeah because actually legitimizing Jon would make any of Rob's children and descendents rule insecure.
Just like how Maegor the unworthy legitimizing all his badtards had led to the blackfyre rebellions which had lasted half a century.
Actually, it was Aegon IV the unworthy, not Maegor. Maegor the Cruel was the guy who abolished the Faith Militant, I think.
Also, Aegon legitimised like 13 bastards even though he had legitimate children. Robb's child wasn't born yet, his sisters were assumed to be imprisoned by Lannisters, and his trueborn brothers were assumed dead. Legitimizing Jon was actually very reasonable, because if anything happened to both Robb and his child, legally (unless the Kings of Winter used the Agnatic Primogeniture succession law), Sansa is queen, and she is a Lannister hostage. Legitimizing Jon in case anything happens to Robb and his child was one of the only ways to keep power within the north. Even if it is argued that Jon had already become a black brother, legitimizing him won't be detrimental to Robb's children anyway due to his vows.
The entire point of legitimizing him was to make possible to name Jon his heir.
The vows Jon took only matter so long as he's in the watch.
The vows being to serve for life, not have kids or rule lands ect.
Rob planned releasing Jon from his vows so to make it possible for him to be his heir.
Making him and any trueborn children he'd beget a very reasonable threat to Rob's line.
Jon has the classical Starks's features, has Ned's demeanor.
Catelyn is right to worry.
Sansa wouldn't be queen if Rob died.
Her sons would be the heir to Winterfell.
Still extremely valuable.
I have not read the books, why the hell is the show version of Cat not wanting Ned to go but the Book version does?
"My father went on the kings errand once" Holy shit that was Ned's line??? WTF is up with the show!?? That is glaring!!
the show seems to have gone out of their way to make her more likeable...they made her a strong leading lady as opposed to someone who is either evil or the single most incompetent character in the series
The Order of the Green Hand that's really weird I wonder why? I noticed that too with the whole changing her mind about her jon snow hate which she apparently never does in the books. Maybe they wanted her to be more likable so the red wedding is more impactful?
I think they thought the show lacked a leading lady in the first season with Dany being used and abused by Drogo (which didn't happen in the books by the way...he was far more caring towards her from the beginning), and Cersei acting like Cersei, so they made Catelyn the leading lady
Politics over storytelling, when did that start becoming the trend? Sucks I'm praying for a word for word scene for scene animated adaptation of a song of ice and fire in my lifetime trying to be as accurate to George's vision as much as possible
that would be great...with real likenesses of the characters too...for instance...Jon is supposed to look exactly like Ned...Tormund is supposed to be in his 70s, all the stark children are supposed to be red heads except Arya and no more blending characters together...I hadn't thought about that before, but now I really want it to happen
good for jon. he never ended up at the red wedding..
At the same time he maybe could’ve prevented it...
@@lonestarwolfentertainment7184 fat chance.
The Starks fail so much because they play the game assuming everyone is as honourable as they are. That's literally why Jon was stabbed in the back by his Black Brothers.
Stark men couldnt smell betrayal if they left it burning on the kitchen stove lol.
Rickard, Brandon (older), Eddard, Bran (younger), Robb, and Jon can all attest to that 💀.
@@lonestarwolfentertainment7184 Exactly how was he supposed to do that? How would he have known what the Freys were going to do? The reaction of Ghost might have made him nervous, but I don't think that Rob would turn back based on that. This was his last chance to get back on Walder Frey's good side and get his men across the bridge.
if we must hate Cat, it's cause she goes behind her loved one's back and it's always someone else who pays for it
-she doesn't tell Ned she's coming to KL to see him so he gets mad at Littlefinger for bringing her to a brothel
-she arrests Tyrion and escalates the Stark/Lannister feud causing Lord Tywin to invade the River lands and Ned to almost get killed on the street by Jaime. I don't also believe her daddy's bannermen are happy that their men were killed for helping her
-she springs Jaime from captivity
alex thelizardking Like cersie she acts without clear thought of the consequences (my opinion).
alex thelizardking
Don't forget to hate cersei and littlefinger, Varys, lysa, robert, balon, roose, walder, stannis they are all responsible for all these creazy events that lead to the doom of westero's future and their economic
soyon manlai It will take generations for it to be fixed.
Sergio Milho
If Dany comes to westeros her better chances of taking the iron throne would be to support rebellion in the north, riverland, dorne, vale, iron fleets in order to face tyrell and lannister alliances.
The North would be the best place to take out the main forces of lannister and Tyrells forces, trapping them under the harsh winter storms and cutting them from the provisions, ambushes and nights attacks all these are a good way to rid of your enemies main strength to get closer to the iron throne
Always someone else who pays for it?
Robb got himself, his mother, and the northern cause all killed with his immature mistakes. It was Catelyn warning him against meeting with the Freys and even before that she was the only one speaking sense when all his bannermen screamed for war.
Stoneheart is a natural intensification of Catelyn's personality. Like booze.
Couldn't agree more...she came back without her holier than thou exterior and is showing herself to be what she always truly was
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhanda man of the truth I take it
I'm not a fan of Catelyn either, but some of this commentary borders on satire.
Exactly. It's a massive stretch and it actually goes against what GRRM has said in interviews about Catelyn's characterization.
@abdulkarimelnaas7595 I disagree that his perspective on the characters is worthless. When interpreting a legislation, a court does not only look at the black letter, but it also goes beyond and studies the hansard to look at the intent of the legislator. The intent of the writer definitely helps when there are wildly conflicting views on one same point.
Also, there isn't much in the books to vilify Catelyn to the level that fans (perhaps more specifically, Jon fanboys) love to. It's pretty clear from the chapter that Catelyn was not being herself, and even Jon was surprised.
Facts
Really crazy honestly
Not really. This is catelyn the whole time if u just stop seeing what you wanna see. Catleyn is always SOO selfish that she says and does pretentious and unreasonable stuff.
Think about it, she frees the king slayer on a wild whim and hope, even though it goes against everything Robb had told her and all of her own common sense (which we get strait from her mind).
She kidnaps Tyrion (one of the blood royals) off one persons word. These are things someone who feels entitled does. If anyone reading this including myself just decides to kidnap someone (even someone not royalty) bcuz one person said they were guilty people would tell us we’re trippin. And rightfully so.
Catelyn absolutely is like this, they’re reading the chapter strait up lol
You know I never really liked Hoster Tully as he was an ungrateful bastard who turned on his family's ancient benefactors to create powerful dynastic alliances for his children. And didn't exactly join the rebels out of a sense of righteousness but did it because he saw an opportunity to further his family's ambitions just as Walder Frey had done. Its no wonder his two daughters turned out to be scheming bitches with their own ruthless agendas and Littlefinger who was his ward has turned into such a backstabbing bastard.
He definitely seems to have sucked at least as bad as his daughters...the only Tully we like is the Blackfish (who is the black sheep of the family)
Dynastic Marriages were how alliances and peace treaties were secured until the start of the 20th century from royals down to farmers, marrying for love was seen as stupid and wasting a good business opportunity . The books and show are set in a semi-medieval style world so what Hoster Tully did was pretty much par for the course. I will grant that Hoster tried to milk the deal for all that it was worth with Ned Stark and Jon Arryn (Robert being betrothed to Lyanna Stark put him off the table) and Ned's children by Catelyn being raised in the faith of the seven, even building a Sept for Catelyn. One could also argue that Hoster Tully was being a bit of a Hypocrite by calling out Walder Frey for looking out for his own interests as well (i.e. not coming in on the rebels side until after the battle on the trident) ASOIAF is littered with characters who have major personality flaws (with a few exceptions for better and worse) Catelyn is no exception, but if without those flaws the characters would probably be very boring and the books would remain in obscurity. That said GRRM does turn up some of these flaws to the Nth degree but that's just how he rolls as a writer.
The Order of the Green Hand
Edmure was a great guy, come on!
Such a shame that Tywin (who used to say that family is ALL that lives on), Stannis (who does his duty as no one) and Ned (who was one of the most honorable man in Westeros) followed the Tully words better than the Tullys themselves!
I loved House Blackwood in the novels. They kept faith with the Old Gods. Raventree remained as the last Stark loyalist, even after Riverrun surrendered. Alyssa Blackwood(Black Alys), Benjicot Blackwood (Bloody Ben), Melissa Blackwood, Brynden Rivers(Bloodraven). They're just as badass as the Starks. Their liege lords, Tully's on the other hand always seemed opportunistic and barely competent. I hope they become the liege lords at the end of the novel series.
I hated book Catelyn, I'm glad I'm not the only one
she is the absolute worst (except maybe the mountain, ramsey, and joffrey in the truly malicious sense)...thank you for watching
Speaking of Joffrey, would you do a video about him? exploring how he is a more tragic than evil chararcter? His whole persona is largely due to his terrible upbringing and not the whole incest thing (nature vs nurture). His father was distant, cold and abusive yet he still idolized him and tried to emulate him. His mother was enabling, overbearing, deceitful to him and instilled in him contempt for others and cruel sadism.
Egie Asemota Robert was not too abusive. He only hit Cersei sometimes, when she went way out of line (ie, insulting him; "Perhaps I should wear the armour, and you the gown." Not a good idea to say that to a 6'5 man who used to be one of the greatest warriors in the history of the 7 Kingdoms). He hit Joffrey once (I believe) when Joffrey cut open a pregnant cat to see what was inside. That was it. He tried to set Joffrey right, but Cersei pretty much blocked him. He just stopped trying at some point, and this was probably one more reason for why he sunk deeper and deeper into lust and drink.
She's such a bitch. Smh
And yet some of her chapters are the most interesting. Its such good story writing!
By our medieval world's view, she was doing what she thought would ensure her sons' inheritance. The Blackfyre rebellion showed her what could go wrong if such things weren't carefully seen to. I don't see her as the worst, only because her motivation was security for her children. Sons with good connections, daughters with well off husbands, no wars fought over the ownership of Winterfell. She made some bad decisions and it cost her everything.
you're right. doesn't make her actions any less gross. the way she did it just rubs me the wrong way. she has a holier than though attitude which i think is part of the problem. i also wonder what kind of person leaves winterfell, with one son crippled, who was almost murdered, and the other being only 3, and never returns. talk about security for her children. its really disturbing.! i find her to be extremely selfish. even cersei would've kept a closer eye on her children, which is why she is a step above catelyn in my book. but thank you so much for watching and for taking the time to comment.
the road to ruin is paved with good intentions
Daemon and Bittersteel were defeated by another legitimized bastard Bloodraven. Out of all of their bastard kindred, Blackfyre and Bittersteel were the only ones to the rebel while the rest stayed loyal to Daeron the Good. The Blackfyre Rebellion doesn't hold water as an example of why legitimizing bastards is a bad thing.
ShadowShroud7
If it happened once it could happen again.
Not an argument. Just because it can happen, doesn't mean every single bastard ever born will be a threat to their house. In fact, there were more important factors to the rebellion than Daemon's bastardry. Mainly the remaining hatred towards Dorne and Daeron's like for Dornish culture and Aegon IV's constant supplanting and undermining of Daeron's legitimatcy by inferring rumors of adultery between his wife Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight.
Furthermore, no bastard in recent times has shown themselves to be anymore capable of treachery and cruelty than their trueborn kin with the sole exceptions of Joffrey and Ramsey.
Well,
1. She was the one who forced Ned to go South.
2. She was the one who really kickstarted Tywin assault on the Riverlands by capturing Tyrion. When Ned explicitly gave her instructions to nothing rash and fortify the North.
3. She captured Tyrion knowing her husband and children were in danger IN the south which led to Ned being injured and his household guards killed, essentially destroying any hope he had of getting out of Kings Landing safely.
4. She went in another direction after capturing Tyrion, starting the damned war and then proceeds to lose said man Tyrion.
5. She bartered away Robb's hand for a God damned bridge (an important one, mind you) but Robb is heir to the NORTH. Imagine the alliances Robb could've tried for if his hand was not promised to a weasel who refused to defend his liege lord.
6. The most damning. She released Jaime fcking Lannister, who was THE hostage Robb would ever get from the Lannisters. She believed in Jaime's vow to bring her Sansa and Arya, the Jaime who at the time was known to be an oathbreaker (was necessary but still they didn't know) and cuckolded another King, fathering bastards and placing said bastards as heir to the Throne. She believed in THAT guy. Jaime was a traitor and oathbreaker twice over.
7. She essentially forces Jon to go to the Wall. The North might think it a noble calling but it was essentially a penal colony. Remember "The Lone wolf dies but the pack survives". If Jon had been with Robb he would've been a great boon him. Jon and Robb are the perfect. Robb the military mind and Jon the administrative mind. Robb was a lone wolf down in the south.
For me it's point 6 that ruins her character. She did something sooo stupid. Like how stupid can you get?
Ive never liked her or trusted her. The show does in fact make her more likable, but in the books, I couldn't stand her. Thought she was the worst. Thank you for bringing up these points, and I will be waiting for the next part. As well as part 5 of The Wars to Come
Thank you...the Wars to Come is going to be delayed a week or two...our children of the forest collab video with Tony Teflon requires A LOT of work...we had this material already researched and ready for presentation and we promised it to people a month ago, and people kept asking for it so we released it while we're working with Tony...plus, researching all that doom and gloom was a real downer...we had a lot of fun hating on Catelyn
The Order of the Green Hand lol Well very good job both of you. Keep em coming. I love your channel. Great fucking work, great fucking look at the story
Thank you
+The Order of the Green Hand
Whoa, whoa, whoa... Collab with the Don? Oh my i love this channel more and more everyday. Where tf have i been?
Just before Christmas, when I first saw your Wars to Come series I actually sent Tony Teflon a Facebook message asking if he'd seen your channel. I was so excited when he told me you guys would be working together!! Especially on the CotF!!
I have always believe Catelyn was a manipulator. Her actions help with the fall of the Stark family.
Thank you for watching...Couldn't agree more
Ned and Sansa are the 1st two that come to my mind.
Koketta Knowles...i think Robbs marriage was the main disaster for the starks, however Catelyns prideful and headstrong actions didn't help much either.
Say what you want about Catelyn but she was completely devoted to her family and children.
Harris like when she wanted to marry Sansa to Joffrey even though Joffrey was clearly an ass.
"The Others take you both!"
Maester Lewin was absorbed by the weirwood tree.
Catelyn was drowned in the river.
Poetic Justice, I should say.
Cat wasnt drowned. Her throat was cut by a Frey, after that her body was thrown in the river to mock the Tully funeral tradition.
@@soy.sauce.latte. Well you can still say "she drowned in her own blood!"
I came for the tywin info, but stayed for the catelyn bashing \o/
We have a lot of fun at Catelyn's expense but the point is still there. She's a one woman wrecking ball aimed at the heart of House Stark
Sorry not sorry but saying that Catelyn Stark is the worst person that's ever lived in a fictional universe that contains ... half the Lannisters, two thirds of the Targaryens, both Clegane brothers, Craster, the White Walkers, the various slavers in Essos, Littlefinger and the Boltons is purely ridiculous.
her sucking (in my eyes) is real… me saying she was the worst person who ever lived was kinda meant to be funny … sorry you missed that
Okay, just because it's her POV chapter doesn't mean that all the things we're told in the text are her current stream-of-consciousness thoughts. Just because GRRM chose to describe the room rather than the bumping and grinding going on in the bed doesn't mean that's what she was thinking about right then.
At that point, the reader is still learning these bits and pieces about Winterfell being built on top of hot springs which run through the walls. About her being from a warmer place called Riverrun and having a brother and a sister. That doesn't mean that she's picturing her brother and sister while she's fucking.
There are PLENTY of examples of information being shared during POV chapters (because they're ALL POV chapters) that the current POV character doesn't actually know. GRRM will go off explaining the long history of an inn that our character comes across... even though that character knows jack shit about the history of that inn.
Exactly.
I thought this was a pretty point with all the legitimate ones to choose from.
Yep, those were my thoughts too. For a moment I thought, how did I miss that, that she's thinking that. But in no way is it implied that she is thinking that.
zardox78 also just because she was not thinking if ned fucking her how dude this make her bad like they been married now did a while and probably have sex often considering the 5 children she had so like there married who the fuck cares if she’s not think about fucking Ned plus Ned never hated cat in fact I think ned had a hard time .( book ned ) with her because she asked about jons mother .
Hmm no, not really, if a character doesn't know jackshit about an inn there will be someone explaining them the history or they will flat out not think about it and just describe the things they see(Arya II ASOS). George is very meticulous and only let's characters speak for what they know, otherwise they will ask.
As for Cat thinking during some random stuff during sex, yes is a bit of exposition but it's also characterization for Cat. George could have easily chosen her to be laying in bed post coitus and the scene will be literally the same.
I always took Catelyn as the pinnacle of the old mentality. She is everything that is wrong with Sansa. Even Cat dreamt of being a Lady, the woman from the songs, flowers in her hair...more powerful that she is capable of being. And even when she got almost everything a "Lady could dream of" she still couldn't cope with Jon (the one and only thing out of order). Sansa still has to shake off the poisonous expectations her mother bestilled her with.
Worst person? You mean worse than Ramsey? To quote Bronn: "Not bloody likely"
Ramsey is more sadistic than her. If she's a better person than him however it's by a narrow margin. Her thoughts and actions do not line up. She knows what the correct decisions are, then does the opposite every time
the thing that bothers me the most about her is that she thinks things through first and weighs out her options, and comes to the correct conclusion, then does the opposite
yes. Her damn overemotional stupidity caused the war of the five kings and indirectly led to Ramsay getting to enact his sick whims on the north.
Amestris...why did Tywin invade the Riverlands?
thank you...he did it in response to what Catelyn did...that's all I needed to know...for a minute there I couldn't remember...thank you for reminding me
When Cat says "She would not have it" I GENUINELY think she would have had Jon killed if he stayed at Winterfell. Hmmmm wanna know who that reminds me of? Cersei Lannister when Robert wanted to bring Myra Stone (his first bastard, who it actually seems like he tried to care about) to King's Landing
I am no fan of Catelyn but I am glad that she was cruel to Jon. Her cruelty caused Jon to take the high road and grow up quicker than his siblings in a world that is unforgiven to all men & women rather you're a bastard, commoner, or nobility. What's even more ironic is Catelyn's southerly ambitions, lying, selfishness and scheming caused all her children to suffer greatly for it and the one thing she tried to prevent Jon being a legitimate heir to Winterfell came to past when Robb named him his heir.
hell yeah
modiva79 Not only that. Ned died because of her scheming. She convinced him to go south and we know how that turned out. In this same chapter she recalled the dead direwolf. She must've thought that's the price I have to pay to get rid of Jon.
modiva79 I believe the Freys were her comeuppance, for the way she treated Jon.
Neoplanter 😉
I wouldn't say Jon made too many terrible choices. A lot of his decisions were well thought out and forward thinking. Other than banging ygritte a lot of the matters he had to deal with were really complex. Unlike his brother Robb, who made really terrible and stupid choices. Not marrying the frey girl, sending Theon to treat with Balon instead of holding Theon and forcing Balon to side with him, beheading Rickard Karstark, sending loyal stark men (tallhart & Glover men) to be commanded by Roose Bolton...to name a few. Becoming King in the North was the most stupid one.
"Jon must go."
"Honey, I'm the Lord, not you. It's my castle, not yours. Shut up."
I started re-reading the books, and I just finished the Catelyn II chapter where we see the blossoming of her sketchiness. I noticed a passage that concerned me. Cat tells Ned what the letter from Lysa "says". Ned isn't swayed by the news enough to want to become Robert's Hand. So she thinks to herself how she feels bad for Ned, but she can't comfort him because first 'the victory must be won, for her children's sake'. Then she plays on Ned's love for Robert to guilt him into taking the job, which seems to work. My question is, what victory is she talking about? How will the outcome of this victory help her Stark children? How would it benefit her children to place their father around people you suspect of murder? Her children weren't impacted by Jon Arryn's murder, so the justice she claims to want for his murder would benefit her sister Lysa, not her own children.When Ned finally agrees to go, Maester Luwin asks what will happen with Jon Snow. Cat vehemently refuses to allow him to stay at Winterfell, and is overjoyed at the idea of Jon joining the watch. If he takes their oath, he can't father sons that could one day challenge her grandchildren's claim to Winterfell. Taking that into account, and considering that she just hates Jon as he's a constant reminder of Ned's 'infidelity', do you think the victory she wants to win is to get Ned to leave Winterfell so Jon would also have to leave? Jon's exit and subsequent joining of the night's watch would be considered a victory to her; the reminder of Ned's other love and the threat to her children's hold on Winterfell would be eliminated in one fell swoop.
That is exactly what we wondered when we read it....what victory? viewing Jon as a threat to her children's right to Winterfell doesn't even make sense...she has 5 children ahead of him in the line of succession...the only thing we could think of that would make him a legitimate threat to her children would be if Ned was really married to Ashara and Jon is therefore the oldest and trueborn and the heir to Winterfell....going to whatever lengths necessary to get Ned to go to KL to be Robert's hand so she could force the issue of Jon leaving, full well knowing that Maester Luwin (who it says in the app, assisted her in forcing Jon to the Wall) would suggest Jon take the Black, would be a victory for her children
If I'm not mistaken, didn't Maester Luwin come w/Cat from Riverrun to replace Maester Walys? That would explain his teaming with Cat In this. Hell for all we know, Cat directly gave Luwin the box and the mysterious nap drop off was a farse.
What do you think her end game in this whole conspiracy is? The only thing I could come up with is Littlefinger masterminded the entire thing, which includes starting the lie that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna. With the goal of eliminating all Stark suitors for Cat, so he could have her. It played out like the red wedding, where he pits his enemies against each other and let's them kill each other. Only Ned didn't die in the war. So LF poisoned Jon Arryn to create a Hand vacancy, knowing full well Robert would ask Ned to take the job. The fact that Cat spent days with LF alone makes me wonder if he was giving her further instructions. Like Tyrion Lannister's whereabouts.
we couldn't be more aligned in our thinking....if we could prove it we would have included it in the videos...the only thing we could prove was her actions were suspect as heck...why did she need to beat Ned to KL....why did she say "so soon?" when Littlefinger summoned her when she got there? why don't her actions and thoughts ever line up? Why didn't she do any of the things Ned told her needed to be done to prepare for a potential war with the Lannisters? I personally don't think she ever planned on Ned leaving KL alive...when his bones were shown to her she thinks about his secrets dying with him (Jon being the true heir?)
I'm wondering if what's played out on the show will play out in the books. If so, the brotherhood she leads will go back to Winterfell, which Jon now controls not as warden of the North, but King in the North. Basically her worst nightmare came true x10 lol. The potential interaction between Lady Stoneheart and Jon would be very interesting I think.
I keep telling people I hope she lives just long enough to see Jon crowned and her children standing next to him. All I would be able to think would be JUSTICE SERVED
Poor Edmure. Feel bad for him. His sisters are psychos, he is unjustly blamed for Tywin and Gregor's escape, he got imprisoned since his wedding night. And yet the fandom curses him, and not his sisters.
I always thought Catelyn was a good character, strong and determined. Except ofcourse I didn't like how she mistreats Jon and how she recklessly taken Tyrion knowing full well Ned was already in danger oh and how she took it upon herself to defy her King, her son even though he was already in shit for not marrying a Frey. Come to think of it I hate how she elected herself to make treaty with Walder. Gosh I can't remeber but did Catelyn also convince Ned to trust Baelish? Could she even be at fault regarding Sansa's naive dreamy nature in believing in songs her mother told her about and grooming her? Ultimately betraying her father. I am sure you'll touch on these and many others if so. Yup Catelyn is the worst person alive. I've been looking forward to this video eversince you mentioned she was the one who forced Ned to go south in your last video. I look forward to the next one!
She literally makes every single situation worse
I always thought of Catelyn as a good character too, and I haven't finished the video yet, but they've made some important points that can't be ignored, I'm afraid. However, She did not know Robb had broke his vow to Walder Frey when she released Jamie in the second book. Robb was away, and she had to release Jamie because the Karstarks were going to try and kill him anyways. I used to hate her guts because of how she treated Jon in the first book, but over time I warmed up to her because of her nature. I really sympathized with her depressed state in the second and third book though, I felt a real connection to her character then, and I liked how she went against her shallow first impressions, and accepted Brienne. And, I doubt she had something to do with Petyr and Lysa's plans. What would Ned getting killed do for her other than give her all the stress she got in the second and third books?
Thank you for watching...and she did not have to release Jaime...she could have posted extra guards or done any number of things to ensure Jaime's safety...the Karstarks were not about to start killing their allies to get to Jaime...THAT would have been a disaster for them...they would have lost everything (possibly their lives) if they killed guardsmen at Riverrun...and I don't recall Catelyn being depressed...she thinks to herself once that I can remember that she grieves for Ned, yet that is the only thought she ever had about it, and she only thought about it because she found herself thinking about Jon and his mother and wondered if whoever she was grieved for Ned... I'll save my thoughts on the rest for our next video
The Order of the Green Hand
Yeah, the Karstark part was more in the show, actually I kind of forgot what was happening in the book at that point. And, I could tell she was in a fragile state because a certain phrase kept showing up, she kept thinking she was saying things harsher than intended, and she's always thinking about Bran, Rickon and her kids, and there is that scene at a feast where she's getting really upset, and Brienne notices.
The Order of the Green Hand ▪I think that one time Catelyn grieved for Ned was I think what made me think of her a "good person" I perceived it as empathy and acknowledgement to the "other woman" even so, after watching this video again, I realized she already knew Ned was going to die.
There's a reason that Littlefinger was Catelyn's best friend throughout her long & often eventful life! Birds of a feather flock together.
Oop 🫢I never thought about that! You’re right!
Littlefinger and Petyr were not friends. They grew up together and he was obsessed with her
"Is there anything more sad then an ugly women?" -Catelyn
isn't Catelyn such a charming woman
Bluemilk92 holy shit she actually said that
The Order of the Green Hand completely of topic: I find it amazing that you manage to reply to almost all comments
Bluemilk92 yes there is actually now that you mention it a dynasty with an incompetent matriarch who ruins said dynasty.
When did she said that??
She was in loved with Brandon Stark and I believe that's why Bran is her favorite child.
I wouldn't be surprised if, during Catelyn's POV chapters, she thinks that during the first couples of sex nights between her and Ned, Cat used to pretend that Ned was Brandon in order to cope with her grief!
To the last person to comment: if Ned told his wife that Jon was actually a Targaryen and not his son; there wouldn't be a war of the five kings. Instead Ned would have to go to war with Robert because cateyle didn't keep her mouth shut and unwittingly started a rumor that became true.
i think she would have stayed quiet,she is secretive in character.
AdamUpBxtch...i agree. arya has always been incognito, fake names, disguised, its completely out of character for her.
You mean Jon Sand? Also, we don't know that Rhaegar and Lyanna are his parents in the books. Even so, Robert loved Lyanna and probably wouldn't go to war with Ned just to murder her son (if he is her son) - the reason he hates the Targaryens in the first place is because of what they did to the Starks.
The reason Robert hates the dragons is because he feels like Rhaegar stole something that belonged to him. He would absolutely want to kill Jon as well, especially considering I'm sure the narrative in his mind would be Rhaegar raped her and she's dead because of dragonspawn born of rape. It would be the last person he could visit his so called vengeance upon.
Snow Mercy..the reason Robert hates all Targaryens is because he knows lyanna went willingly with rhaegar and his pride cant handle the fact that she chose rhaegar over him. there was never any rape.
"Catelyn TULLY is the worst person that's ever lived"
...uh, not in a universe where there's a guy who keeps "marrying" his daughters while leaving his newborn baby boys for the ice zombies. Or where people like Ramsay and Joffrey exist. Or The Mountain who apparently has no motivations beyond just liking to rape and murder a whole lot, which Tywin is willing to facilitate. Or hell, where at least in the books CERSEI thinks that Catelyn is a weak fool because she let Jon grow up in Winterfell in the first place instead of just murdering him as a baby.
Not that there are no legit reasons to dislike her, but that statement is like the extreme lack of perspective this fandom tends to have in its purest concentration.
her sucking (in my eyes) is real… me saying she was the worst person who ever lived was kinda meant to be funny … sorry you missed that
Bit over the top don't you think? No, she's not a perfect person, she's cruel to Jon because she's jealous, but the WORST? Just because her mind wandered during sex and she wanted Ned to serve the king to keep peace and safety for the sake of her children? GoT isn't as simple as good or evil, characters are deeper than that, they have flaws and undesirable traits. Not every character who is shown to have bad sides to them is an almighty, evil, mastermind manipulator.
This video is about revealing Catelyn's ability to be manipulative to get what she wants. There's a bit of hyperbole in saying she's the worst ever but her actions caused thousands of deaths and there are several passages that could easily be viewed to indicate that she was screwing Ned over on purpose
I just started reading the books and was surprised how much I disliked Catelyns chapter. She seems such a horrible person.
On the show she was much nicer, or more sympethatic
Any woman that would leave her youngest 2 and almost refuse to return, always finding a reason, is not a good person. Also water is wet
Instance #1 post-Tyrion capture: her oldest son jumped the gun and went to war like an absolute dumbass
Instance #2: her father was dying in riverrun. Meanwhile her youngest 2 kids were chilling in winterfell in absolutely no danger.
Instance #3: she thinks her 2 youngest kids were dead and her castle overrun. Why go back at all?
Yeah. Fuck this lady for not going to winterfell to take care of her two youngest kids when she had bigger shit to deal with.
Oh yeah. I forgot that she went to treat with renly because Robb stark literally told her to.
Talk about sexisme
@@sethkins123 Robb also told her to take her ass home many times. She refused for every reason she could think of. She even lied to Bran and Rickon saying Robb had need of her as he was telling her to go home. So then he sends her off to Renly to get her the fuck away from him, because she was undermining his rule and being a pain in the ass. Robb did not jump the gun either. Tywin had already reacted to Catelyn's abduction of Tyrion and assembled his host, as well as burning the river lands and it's people. I could go on but you are obviously not paying attention to the story in the first place.
Water isn't wet
After Robert’s rebellion happens, Ned and Kat are married and go up to Winterfell to live. Almost immediately, Benjen leaves for the Wall. I have no doubt he had one conversation with Kat and thought “my brother is fucked but I’d rather freeze my balls off at the wall than stay here with that chick!”
The whole point of Catelyn stark is to show that even "good " people have faults, in my opinion Catelyn stark's faults enriched her personality, thus making her seem more realistic. The realism of many characters in this series, is the reason why these books are entertaining to read.
This scene wasn't about that...it was showing that Catelyn can be underhanded and manipulative...this video was the baseline for the conclusion, not the conclusion itself...if you watch the rest of them, keeping in mind that she is more than capable of being manipulative to get something she wants, and watch the absolute disaster she makes of every situation House Stark is unfortunate enough to have her present for, it begins to be a bit suspicious...she's not dumb, yet she does the worst possible thing for her house every time...making a few mistakes is human...making nothing but mistakes starts to look purposeful
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I think George is purposefully leaving out a great deal of info when it comes to Catelyn. I'm convinced she was littlefinger's spy if not a lannister plant. That, or she atleast had a cluster b personality because that's the only way to explain this.
@@HelenWA I've though about something on these lines before, and I look to the maesters/faith for the answer. They had their hands in arranging Brandon to Cat, and I believe the reason was the eventual conversion of House Stark.
I always hated Catelyn. When I first read it, I felt myself immediately feel disgusted upon reading it. I looked at the show first, and I liked her a bit as she seemed like a good mother, but when I read the first book I was baffled at the difference between these two women... The one in the show is way different than the one in the books... I always hated reading the Catelyn chapters, to the point where part of me had a hard time reading the chapters. When the red wedding happened, I was okay with it. I couldn't care less for Catelyn dying in the books. I didn't clap for her death as I did for Joffery though...
I totally agree that bood Catelyn and show Catelyn are completely different characters that happen to have the same name... Joffrey dying was truly enjoyable as sick as it makes me feel to say that...Catelyn's death was more bittersweet, because I liked Robb and was sad to see him go
I actually liked Robb at first but when he decided to marry whatsername in the TV show and defaulted on his promise to the Freys, I immediately thought to myself, "Robb, you have signed your own death warrant." In the book, Robb married Jeyne Westerling simply because she slept with him to comfort him during a vulnerable time. Robb inherited his mother's shortsighted thinking and poor decision making. That's why I ended up disliking Robb and was happy he was dead along with his mother in the Red Wedding.
Me, too. I ended up hating reading the Catelyn chapters in the books and couldn't wait to reach the part when she died so that I don't have to suffer through her POV chapters anymore.
Loved the vid, and the whole series so far! I think more and more that GRRM played D&D like a harmonica. They reversed the positions of Ned and Catelyn about him going south for the show. From their perspective, not wanting Ned to go south is a better fit for Catelyn's character, even though they stayed pretty close to the books early on. Martin asked D&D who Jon's mother was in their first meeting. They thought that he gave them a chance because they answered correctly. I wonder if he gave them a chance because they got it wrong. It always seemed out of place for him to let a show spoil the books that aren't written yet. I truly hope he played them, and all of us.
bastard Stark DireCrow Yup lol ... I think he will hold back the remainder of the books until the show is done too!
Thank you...we think it is likely that the show will, in fact, get back on the same page with George for a large majority of the story next season...George suspended all public appearances until TWOW comes out...the last time he did that A Dance with Dragons came out within months...we're hopeful that that incredibly vague "reveal" at the end of last season will be rectified with the immediate introduction of Aegon next season...there are 3 yet to be named characters cast that perfectly match Aegon, Lemore (Ashara), and Connington, which will drive ratings up with pure shock value
The Order of the Green Hand , not all but most. Martin will be at StokerCon (Long Beach, CA) in April and WorldCon (Helsinki, Finland) in August. Here's to hoping he doesn't add too many more!
come on! Are you really expecting the show to do a 180 like that and introduce these characters who have had no prior establishment? I mean, considering how Quaithe was introduced and subsequently erased from existence in the show, I doubt D&D are even going to acknowledge the wider ASOIAF world. Besides I really don't want to see these characters get the "good girl, bad pussy" treatment (RIP House Martell)
I know I've had critiques of other videos, but in this one, you guys missed the point by a country mile. Cat is the archetypal overprotective mother. All that she does, all that she cares about is to ensure the safety of her children. Tragically, all of her attempts end in ensuring the complete opposite. If your theory were correct, her coming back as Lady Stoneheart would be the most heavy handed development in the story and a great detriment to Martin's writing.
I think he brought her back as lady stoneheart because people completely missed how awful she is and he wanted to drive home the point...there is plenty to come on this topic...the woman is pure evil...she goes around with this holier than thou attitude and presents herself as what you described...but lady stoneheart is what she is really like under that facade
The Order of the Green Hand Then why the whole business about how long it takes to bring her back? You'll remember that Thoros specifically warns that people who have been dead for that long come back "different." If the point was to highlight that she was evil the whole way through, then what purpose would that fulfill when Arya/Nymeria could have gotten her out from the river the next day and the Brotherhood found her later in the same day? Martin has said that the most compelling story is to write about the human heart divided against itself. By your account, Cat's development is completely flat, not a person with good intentions who ultimately is lost in darkness. What's compelling about that?
It doesn't have to be compelling to be...it just is...she just became more openly what she already was...a monster
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I respect your opinion, but I take that with a grain of salt. George R. R. Martin has defended Catelyn before, and has said that she doesn’t deserve the amount of hate being thrown at her. He has also explicitly stated that Lady Stoneheart was added to show how war changes people, not to “expose” her.
Yeah, she can't nag ned into becoming the hand, then complain when she realizes their kids would be heavily involved. I find her insufferable in both show and book.
Catelyn: Robert will think you oppose him you don't accept.
Me: That is bullshit when you consider the Dornish why would Robert give a shit if Ned decides he wants to stay with his family
Hoster Tully: who married his daughter Lysa to Jon Arryn, old enough to also be her father.
Rehan Chowdhury Hoster forced Lysa to have a miscarriage and likely affected her "fertility" the reason he force her to marry Jon Arryn. Robert was the only child to survive from their marriage.
@@allyriastark3508 and Robert might not even be Jon Arryn’s child (there’s a theory that he’s actually LittleFinger’s bastard).
Alright I never really liked her, never disliked her neither. This doesn't video doesn't change ANYTHING about that. How does this video prove cately sucks? She just doesn't like jon ( as he is the personifaction of Ned being unloyal towards her constantly shoved into her sight, of course Jon himself is innocent but her feelings are somewhat understandable )and wants the best for her own children... And there is nothing wrong about being manipulative. I mean who hasn't manipulated others towards helping you/ doing as you want them to do...
Not saying she is a great character either. In game of thrones there simply aren't any purely good/ evil characters, JUST LIKE IN REAL LIFE.
Even Tyrion (one of my favs) and probably one of the nicest characters on the show has killed the woman he loved and his own father. The latter (Tywin) for example imo wasn't neither.
Don't get into that black/white way of thinking when you're talking about GOT. Because like I said, no character is purely evil/ good and it all depends on how you look at it.
This video is part 1...it doesn't prove anything...it simply establishes a baseline for her manipulative behavior to be elaborated on in future videos
Catelyn : *Exists*
Order of the Greenhand : *Jesus Wept*
C'mon now. The letter and box were no conspiracy. They did originate from Lysa Arryn, Catelyn and Lewin didn't know the contents until Catelyn opened it and Catelyn interpreted the code faithfully. The idea for Jon going to the wall originated with Jon himself.
Catelyn is guilty of providing (unknowingly what would turn out to be) really bad advice, disliking Jon, her mind wandering during sex, and improper draping in front of the Maester. Meanwhile, Lewin is guilty of nothing.
------
Overall my thoughts on Catelyn are that she is a sympathetic person who treats Jon poorly and makes a series of horribly disastrous decisions over the course of the books. I like TV Catelyn better than book Catelyn, HBO softens up her rough edges, but those changes, like most, were uninvited. But she has good intentions and does the best she can. I think she's generally honorable and decent and wins over Brienne with her inner strength and fortitude.
Anyway, if you want to beat up on her there's a lot to work with but you'll have to do better than this. Seems unnecessarily petty.
it literally says that she got rid of Jon with the assistance of Maester Luwin...all we did was show how they did it
in the app
And if it was some sort of secret code only she could read why did she need to burn it before Ned saw it?
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand yes she was glad about getting rid of jon but that was purely emotional and nothing worked out in a conspiracy your just throwing shit in the room
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand she needed to burn it bcuz as she said it would be dangerous if the letter got into the wrong hands
Can you imagine the look on Catelyn's face if she was alive and IN WINTERFELL at the end of Season 6? She might have turned a darker shade of purple than Joffrey and died of a stroke as they proclaim "The King in the North." Oh and the Wildlings taking up residence in Winter fell as well.
Trolololol
I really hope stoneheart lives long enough to see her children standing behind Jon being crowned King of the North, with Ashara standing at his side
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand OH, MAN, I want to reads this scene SO MUCH! (But I think Howland should be at Jon's side rather than Ashara!)
Why ashara? Like why would she still be alive
@@lelanddupuy8296 in there othe videos they explain how they believe that Sahara is Jon’s true mother with Ned. But upon seeing lyannas child with Rhaegar it looked too Targaryen.
They did a baby swap, Ashara faked her death and miscarriage and Rhayader’s and lyannas child is actually Aegon or as some people say faegon who is pretending to be Elias child. Sorry about any misspelling in the names.
There theory is that the book and the show are very different entities.
Maybe only me have a thought that it's wrong to blame Catelyn. Ned used his wife to keep Jon safe, he used her anger to cover Jon's true identity. He could have revealed it to her to make her accept Jon, but he didn't. You tell me, do Catelyn deserve to suffer the thinking that her husband cheated on her? You don't know how bad it is until you get it, not to mention she is a honorable woman. To me it's Ned and Jon who got benefit from Cat's suffering. If Cat knew, she would treated Jon with love and care like her own child and Jon would be dead long ago. Catelyn mistreated Jon, yes, but it's Ned who should be blamed on. Catelyn was just a victim and I feel sorry for her.
And beside, it's Littlefinger who started the war, he got Lysa killed Jon Arryn, sent fake message to Catelyn to create chaos between Stark and Lannister, lied to her that Tyrion was behind Bran's assassination, sooner or later there will be war, Tyrion's arrest was just the first gunfire.
Fiance dead, husband cheated, watch her first son got killed, die thinking all her family was dead, she is the character who have to suffer pain throughout her life. She's strong and whatever she did she always put her family first. Cat represents The Mother in the seven.
Catelyn caused almost everything...Catelyn never showed herself to be trustworthy enough for Ned to talk to about his secrets...Catelyn presents herself as an honorable woman, but I can't think of any action she takes that has honor in it...she fails to do her duty every time...she didn't stay at home with her children which was her duty...then she goes to KL and tells the two least trustworthy people there what Ned will be up to when he arrives...then Ned gives her 5 specific things that must be done in case they go to war with the Lannisters and she does none of them and starts a war with the Lannisters...then she releases Jaime, even though she knows it will cause Robb serious problems with his bannermen...there is a lot more...she couldn't possibly be more different than you are describing...the character you are describing is show Catelyn, not book Catelyn
I agree
Quite frankly I find this video exaggerated. Every character has their flaws. Every character played a part that caused the war. To condemn her for everything is looking for a scape goat. Don't hate her cause you love Jon. See things from both their perspectives.
she sucks...how she treated Jon was only a small part of why she sucks...watch part 2...that only covers up through her first 5 POV chapters
and in this video, we simply explain how Catelyn and Maester Luwin accomplished what the app says they did
The Order of the Green Hand I've read the books at least 3 times before. I don't need to watch the video for my opinion to change on it. You're taking points and thinking, not outside the box, but outside the character. I can't relieve her of her wrongs, persisting Ned to go to Kings Landing being one, but I can make points to defend each of her actions. With every character there are pros and cons. You've only stated the cons and not flipping the other side of the coin.
Name a pro...I literally can't think of one
The Order of the Green Hand Some find it awful enough that Catelyn does not show Jon affection, and has essentially been a distant figure to him his whole life. This is unfair. First it should be remembered that Jon never needed affection and love; his father, his siblings, old nan, maester luwin, ser rodrik, and likely a plethora of others at Winterfell cared for him. Jon was far from neglected. Catelyn had no obligation, moral or otherwise to be a primary carer for Jon. She did nothing to impede upon Jon's upbringing. The fact that she did this, given the context of Westerosi culture, says something positive about her character.
What's this about Ned already having a wife when he was forced to marry Catelyn? He wasn't even betrothed to anyone at that point. That's why his dad stayed home and let Ned and his siblings go to the tourney at Harrenhal. He wanted Ned and Benjen to make connections, meet other young people who might be good matches someday. Only Brandon and Lyanna were betrothed. Ned was too young to marry without his father's consent and he was too honorable to defy his father and run off to marry a girl in secret.
Ned married Catelyn out of honor because she had been betrothed to his brother. All the contracts were written up and it wasn't Hoster Tully's fault Brandon had been killed. Besides, he knew that he'd need the Tulllys as allies in the rebellion.
Out of curiosity, who was Ned supposedly married to? I don't see Hoster Tully or Maester Llewyn as manipulative at all. Besides, the Maester takes orders from the Castle Lord, not the Lady. He would not help her deceive him. Catelyn was a crazy Biatch but not some master schemer. I just don't see it.
Our videos, especially the ones we made early on, make a lot more sense if watched in order. We have a recommended order playlist if you’re interested. We’re pretty sure that Ned was married to Ashara
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand Ned never thinks about Ashara even once throughout the first book. He had to be pushed to dance with her at the tourney and there is no evidence to suggest he was interested in her at all. One dance does not a romance make. I edited my post. Read what I said about him being honorable. He was too honorable to have sex with a young woman of noble birth if he wasn't married to her, either. And Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. If D&D hadn't guessed correctly, George R R Martin would never have let them make the show.
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand I disagree completely. First of all, he never mentions, never thinks of Ashara at all. The only person he thinks of (that is no longer around) are Brandon, his father, and Lyanna. Rhaegar is in his thoughts, even though he was neither part of his family, nor someone he cared about. But if he had been married to Ashara, you'd think he'd think of her at least as often as he thought of Lyanna. And exactly when did this supposed marriage take place? He went directly back to the reach with Robert after the Tournament ended. Had he married her while there, everyone would know about it as someone would have seen and then told someone else.. His dad didn't make the match and Ned wasn't the type to marry without his father's approval. He wasn't the rebellious type. Even if he *had* been, her father wouldn't have just let his daughter run off with Ned. Both their parents would have disowned them and he would have had no means of supporting the two of them.(except as a Hedge Knight ).
I've heard this theory before, that Ashara was Jon Snow's mother, etc., but all this comes from the fact that he danced with Ashara at the Tourney... once. He danced with her just once, and a dance doesn't mean he was in love with her, let alone married her. There is just no evidence to support it.
I'm no fan of Catelyn, however I think this attempt to demonize her is unfair. While she is a b*tch for treating Jon like crap, Westeros culture especially the religion of the faith of the seven (which Catelyn is a devote follower) says that bastards will screw you over the first chance they get and they are the incarnations of their parents lust and desire. That said, Noble Lords keep having illegitimate kids and custom dictates that acknowledged bastards be looked after in some way, Catelyn knows all this and even says she was willing to overlook Ned having a dozen kids with other women so long as they were raised far and away from her own kids, which Ned doesn't do with Jon so it's an insult in Catelyn's perspective that Jon is raised in Winterfell where she has to see him almost every day. How many wives and mothers in the real world are on good terms with their husbands children they fathered out of wedlock? Also bastards can be legitimized by royal decree and Robert Baratheon is Ned's best mate. So all Ned would of had to do any day was write to King Robert and ask for Jon to be legitimized, then he becomes a threat to Catelyn's children's rights of succession. Her staying beside Bran after his fall and neglecting Rickon, boils down to what would we do in that situation if we thought one of our children might die? Would we carry on as if nothing was the matter or stay by said child no matter what? Her arrest of Tyrion and later his trial by combat is a major screw up on Catelyn's part, the later she tries to convince Lysa not to have happen seeing as things had gotten out of control, but she was only after the guy who tried to kill her son, would anyone else after their child had almost been murdered of just shrugged and said "oh well, time to move on." Her flaw though is trusting Littlefinger and forgetting or choosing to ignore that the guy was in love with her and she turned him down years ago. She thought of him as family even after her jackass of a father booted him from Riverrun she thought over the years he could still be trusted and took him at his word when Littlefinger pinned the dagger the Cat's Paw used on Tyrion. In summary Catelyn's greatest strength is her love for her family, though in the cut throat world of ASOIAF it can be a great weakness. GRRM writes characters with human strengths and weaknesses that (with a few exceptions) are not good guys or bad guys, just human beings who can love and hate, create or destroy, make good decisions one day and really bad ones the next, etc.
This video is to establish how manipulative she is capable of being...no one is saying she doesn't have a right to be upset about Jon being there...almost anyone would...that is fine...the way she treated Jon based on her not wanting him there was a bit ridiculous, having only used his name one time in 14 years, and that one time was to stop him when he was leaving to go to the wall so she could basically tell him that she wishes he was dead...that's crossing the line...she is getting what she wants...but that is not the only reason we don't like her...that's a small part...her actions are very sketchy...she didn't need to go to KL, but she did...she didn't need to beat Ned there, but she rushed down there and told LF and Varys everything Ned was going to be doing before he even arrived, right after thinking to herself that she doesn't fully trust LF and doesn't trust Varys at all...then Ned gives her 5 things to do that are vitally important in case they go to war with the Lannisters...does she do them? No...instead she starts a war with the Lannisters before they are ready, leaving Ned and her daughters surrounded by Lannisters with only a King that she has repeatedly said she does not trust between them and certain death...then she thinks to herself that her place is back at winterfell with her boys, then decides that she needs to be a part of Robbs army (her actions never line up with her thoughts on what would be best)...and think about it...Robb was already a very young battle commander...gaining these men's respect and keeping it was already going to be a tough task, but trying to do it with his mommy with him makes it impossible....then she gave the farm away in her negotiations with Walder Frey...then she stays with Robbs army even though he tries to send her home repeatedly...then the thinks that she doesn't trust Jaime or Tyrion to live up to their end of the bargain and that releasing Jaime will cause problems for Robb with his bannermen, and releases Jaime 5 minutes later...you can make excuses for her all you like, but the bottom line is she sucks
Marcus Drake Amen! Couldn't have said it better myself
holy shit i didn’t know game of “thrones” videos could just be misogyny, that’s some serious tinfoil. new GOT theory just dropped! woman bad.
The funniest thing about your comment is the fact that you’re outraged that we’re right. The analysis of this chapter is already confirmed by George to be correct. And there’s nothing misogynistic about this video. It’s analysis of the actions of a female character, which I’m pretty sure is allowed
did not watch, am simply mocking you. fool@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand
You’re mocking analysis that you haven’t even seen and you think we’re the fools?
The comments are even worse. I'm convinced that the same people that hate Catelyn also hate on Skylar White from Breaking Bad.
Holy shit this is just sad. You can't hear criticism of a fictional female without crying? It's not mens fault for whoever pissed you off you do realize?
I guess everyone has their flaws but we must admit, Catelyn does have a strong sense of honor and family. Plus I don't think she would stoop as low as Cersei and have her husband killed or have an incestuous relation ship with her brother.
for all intents and purposes, she did have Ned killed...he was leaving KL but was attacked in the streets, which resulted in his leg getting shattered because she's a moron and started a war with him surrounded by enemies...if she didn't take Tyrion, he would have beaten her home, assuming he booked them passage on a good ship
she's also the one who convinced Ned to trust LF/gave him no choice but to work with him because she told him everything before Ned even got to KL...I think we all know how that worked out
Catelyn is a flawed but very likable character . She did not start the war . Tywin did . He's the one who invaded Riverlands . Tyrion's abduction , though a diplomatic misfire , is not sufficient pretext to cause a war . What Tywin should have done is to go to the King and plead that he release Tyrion . Instead , Tywin ordered entire kingdom to be invaded by rapists , mercenaries , thieves , arsonists and all around monsters for a son , who he emotionally abuses and has physically and sexually abused in the past and who he later tried to kill thrice !!!!!!!
Samara. You just proved our point. What Tywin did was in response to Catelyn taking Tyrion
i still find her an interesting character to read, id rather read Catelyn chapters than Dany in slavers bay..
I have to say, I agree. I really didn't like seeing Daenerys chapters at one point.
Catelyn ruined everything when she convinced ned to go south because of her ambitions
Thinking that a woman who was forced into a political marriage should be doe-eyed and besotted while her husband has rough sex with her is kind of wild.
We mentioned it because everyone tries to say that she’s exactly that and this passage seems to disprove that notion
8:40 I respect your opinion, but I disagree. I believe it was written this way to add emphasis to the “knock”. It’s like in Daredevil, where everyone refers to the bombing of Hell’s Kitchen as “the incident”. That doesn’t mean the characters expected it to happen. It seems that Catelyn was recounting what happened. “The knock” basically changed all of their lives, so it makes sense why she would use “the” instead of “a”.
Well, Catelyn is the older sister of Lysa. We all know how crazy Lysa was. Perhaps she learned well from Catelyn.
exactly! batshit sisters!
I have to say, you guys don't get the depth of suffering for Catelyn as a mother or wife raised to be in aristocrat in a fuedal medieval environment, which GRRM has explicitly stated his inspiration comes from The War of the Roses. She and Cersei are like to King Henry VI's Queen Margaret of Anjou. Queen Margaret of Anjou was coined the wolf queen because of the extent that she went to, to protect her child Edward, and her husband King Henry who was ineffective as a king. It was a game of
thrones then, as it is in Martin's story.
I'm a mother, I don't have the ambitions or expectations that Catelyn does, but I want my children to be alive and happy. It's a fairly basic fundamental aspiration. But in the above mentioned situation, if my daughters were Sansa and Arya, I would keep my eye on people around them like a hawk. Us plebs in modern normal life could not understand this threat to our children like aristocratic people. I'm sorry I don't agree with this topic of yours.
Perhaps before making generalizations about characters that suck, you should find out that they have suffering and expectation that none of us could ever comprehend. Martin creates characters that are human that have goodness and flaws, in each and every one of them.
You don't mention that she was betrothed to Ned's older brother before he was killed by the mad King Aerys, and so her betrothed defaulted to Ned. You don't mention that she was in love with Ned's brother. You don't mention that Ned was in love with Ashara Dayne, but because he was betrothed to Catelyn he had to return. Ashara Dayne flung herself from her castle wall because of the love she bore Ned. Ned could be his own worst enemy but he rather choose pain of a lie to Catelyn than to see the reprecussion of admitting to Robert that his sister loved Rhaegar and had a child to him.
thank you for sharing
We didn't think we needed to explain stuff that everyone watching theory videos already knows...yes her heart was broken when Brandon died, which might be why she was so upset when her son Brandon almost died, but the point of this video was to establish how manipulative she is capable of being, and that her intentions are not clear without taking a closer look at her chapters...
The Order of the Green Hand
I wondered if you do these videos to provoke other points of views and discussion and I realised that's what you're doing. Sorry for above, I'll keep my mind a bit more open lol (and thanks for response!) =)
If the knock is Catelyn's doing why does she describe it as "unexpected"? If Catelyn knows whats in the box why does she "stir with dread" at its introduction? If Catelyn had planned the box and letter, why do "the words make no sense to her"? Why, if we are seeing the story from Catelyn's perspective, do we not see her conciously manipulate as we do in Tyrion or Cersei chapters? Is she such a keen manipulator that she has the reader fooled as well? This is such a tin hat reading of the chapters that you have to disengenuously present it to avoid the gaping holes in the interpretation. Of course she hates Jon and his presence at Winterfell since he is a constant reminder of Ned's infidelity. Your weird insistence that she hates Jon because he could contest Robb's claim is undermined by her saying that she would have been fine if Ned had a dozen bastards anywhere else in the world but Winterfell. You should probably also look up the definition of psychopath as well, Catelyn is full of love for her family and regret for the mistakes she makes. Lack of love and remorse are the defining traits of psychopaths. You have chosen to rag on the one POV character in the entire story that displays the least psychopathy.
No they’re right, cat is not a good person. She’s manipulative, kiniving, possessive, selfish..-and that’s all just from this chapter. If we start getting into later chapters u gotta throw treasonous in there (against king Robert and her own son king robb). She only cares about what she cares about and is willing to go to any lengths to get it. She will kidnap people, have people killed, let people get killed. Tyrion even saves her life while he’s being kidnapped and she doesn’t even say thank u or relent; I believe her exact words are “I trust you no more than I did before”, to a guy who just went out of his way to save her life. It’s trifling to say the least
This entire video is rendered void by Cat thinking about the letter "she got from her sister" multiple times later on
What's the content? Was it dictated by Baelish like Jon Arryn's murder? Let's not forget how Cat has seemingly forgotten about Lysa's pregnancy while they were at Riverrun. Say what you want, but there is no way she didn't know if she and Lysa were close enough to have a twin language.
Cersei tries to kill off all of Robert's children, Frey butchers his guests, Varys actively destroys the peace in Westeros and don't even get me started on Joff and Ramsay but Catelyn is literally Satan for not wanting to raise Ned's bastard who might one day threaten the claim of her own children in Winterfel. I guess the bias exist because Catelyn's "evil" is something people have dealt with in real life in the form of a bad step parent but still calling her the worst is kind of a stretch.
+Fuwa Time that is so far from being the point of this video. This video simply established that she is more than capable of being extremely manipulative. The reasons she's the worst is just about everything she does following this chapter
You don't at all understand Catylen's character journey. Sad to see one of the best written ASoIAF characters get a 30 minute hit piece.
Catelyn is a one woman wrecking ball aimed at the heart of House Stark. It’s not clear whether she’s doing it on purpose or is just the single most incompetent character in the series but those are the facts nonetheless
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand What part of POV would indicate she's doing it on purpose?
I think you guys have to check your perspective on this... Catelyn is no better or worse than anyone else in this story. She, like Cersei, is a loving mother who would do anything for her children. But Catelyn isn't a raging psycho like Cersei!
Oh, and as for that sex scene, where you're so offended that her mind wandered... It happens. They're married, they've had a lot of sex. It's not always going to be beautiful movie-scene love making. Typical for a man to be complaining about that, too! Like how dare she not be fully attentive to her husband when he's horny! Shame on her! *Eye roll*
first of all, the sex scene part of the analysis is literally the least important part of the video, and Catelyn is not a loving mother...a loving mother wouldn't abandon her 7 year old crippled son and 3 year old so she can pretend she is a necessary part of her son's army, and keep watching...a loving mother also would have said goodbye to her daughters, whereas it is unclear if she ever spoke to either of them ever again after Bran's fall and we know she didn't say goodbye to them...Catelyn is literally the most blood soaked character in the entire story...tens of thousands of deaths were caused by her actions and she never even feels bad about it or even thinks about it, including Ned and Robb's deaths...all her children are either dead or in the hands of the most evil people in the story because she decided she wanted to "help"...I could go on for hours about how misguided your views of her character are but instead I'll refer you to parts 2-5, where we outline just how ridiculous her character is and it is difficult to notice because the only assessment we ever get of her actions comes from her
She left Winterfell to help save her daughters! Her youngest sons were safe up north but the girls, as far as she knew it was both of them, were being held captive at King's Landing. In the clutches of the Lannisters, who Catelyn knew tried to kill Bran. She did what she thought she had to, to get her daughter's back. Ugh, it's pointless to argue an opinion. We'll have to agree to disagree. But, I will say this, just because the sex scene part was 'so unimportant' doesn't mean it wasn't stupid. I can't deal with you shaming her for not being as present minded as you deem appropriate during sex.
she left Winterfell because she determined that she needed to go tell Ned about the catspaw, when literally any other person would have been a better choice, like every person in the room with her told her...she then decided that she needed to beat Ned there, so she takes a boat and beats him there by a few days...days she spent with LF...when she arrived, LF summoned her, and instead of being surprised, she thinks "so soon," which absolutely tells the reader that she was expecting to be summoned by LF, but not that soon...she then, even though the thought directly before she decided to speak was that she has little trust in LF and none in Varys, tells both of them everything Ned will be up to before he even arrives...then when Ned does arrive she convinces him to trust LF...then Ned tells her he is going to take care of everything and he needs her to go home and take care of 5 vitally important things that must be done in case there is a war with the Lannisters, and instead of doing what Ned told her had to be done, she, after thinking to herself that they are not ready for war, started a war by taking Tyrion...did she ever do any of those 5 things? No. then Ned, who is about to leave KL for good, gets ambushed in the streets and his leg is crushed...he wakes up back as the hand of the king and has to hold court for Robert while he hunts, only to find out that he now has to send nearly half his household guard with Beric Dondarion to try to clean up Catelyn's mess in the Riverlands...at this point Catelyn looses Tyrion, and LF (the man she brought into Ned's inner-circle) betrays Ned... instead of going home and recognizing that she is the most incompetent person in westeros, she decided that she needed to appoint herself Robb's chief war councilor, which of course was a big help because every 14-15 year old battle commander wants to have his mommy with him...nothing endears a leader to his troops more than the sight of him with his mommy...fast forward...at a time when Robb's tenure as King in the North was never more vulnerable, she frees his ace in the hole, freeing Jaime, which in turn allowed Tywin to set his Bolton-Frey betrayal in motion, which he never would have risked with Jaime a captive of Robb's...Need I say more? at any point in there did she do anything that resembled something that would help her family? No...her 3 year old ended up being raised by a direwolf and a wildling woman on an island inhabited by cannibals...her 7 year old crippled son is in a cave surrounded by whites and creepy Children of the Forest...Arya is with the Faceless Men...and Sansa is with LF...results matter and her results are the blood of tens of thousands of people on her hands and her children are all in peril and House Stark, a house that has ruled for 1000s of years, was nearly wiped off the face of the earth after a mere 15 years of her being a part of it....those aren't opinions, those are facts, and as John Adams said, "Facts are stubborn things."
Lol! God, I cant even say how many times my mind has wandered during sex. "Hmmmm, I wonder if I should have left that corset on." "I wonder what my brother is doing tomorrow. Maybe I can borrow his fishing rod and net later". "How long has it been? Is this guy done yet?"
OK, but tell us how you REALLY feel!
I think the interpretation of her sex scene may be a little unfair. First of all, if the sex is so bad that she's dissociating, that's clearly not her fault. But later she reflected warmly on the feeling inside after Ned finished. Maybe she was happy, but tired, her mind drifting. Has your mind ever drifted while having sex with a long-term partner? Even for a second, to un-sexy things? Even if it's enjoyable, it's probably much the same over the years. Like a scenic route to work, it can be beautiful and comfortable but not particularly compelling or exciting very often any longer. I think the case could be made against Catelyn without this bit, honestly, and actually it sort of primes me to think you're going to take the worst possible interpretation of Cat's actions just because. I say, a case is best presented slightly understated.
I'm still probably gonna watch the rest, though, because yeah, plenty of the other criticisms are valid. And who doesn't enjoy a good roast!
I agree that her mind drifting wouldn't be abnormal in the real world, but the fact that George decided to give us the one and only intimate scene between Ned and Catelyn in this manner is significant
My friend suggested this channel to me and I'm glad she did. All I did after the audio book of ASOIAF, was bitch to her about what a twisted woman Catelyn was. My friend laughed at me and said to check out your channel...three months later, here I am. I LOVE it and subbed like a mofo. I'm starting on book four of the audio books, but it'll have to wait while I binge watch these videos. Tee hee, I'm EXCITED.
thanks so much...hope you enjoy
So you think she's been scheming to send Ned and Jon away, so that she and Luwyn could rule the North? It is true that she doesn't show much love for Ned during that sex scene, but...
Also, what are you implying by stressing that she burned the message? That she made it up or something? Yet we know that Lysa actually sent her a message stating what she actually tells Ned.
We ran out of time for the reason why she burned it. It'll be in part 2. And no, she schemed to get Ned to go to Kings Landing because she knew Ned couldn't bring Jon and planned to use that to get rid of him and get him to the wall, where he would take the black and never be a threat to her children and their dominion over Winterfell.
Ok. Thanks for taking the time to answer comments btw. Appreciate it :)
We try our best to answer every comment
She basically killed or orphaned her children.
“What a loving woman” it’s a political marriage.
Wow, after so many years, I know Catelyn is a deranged maniac who was so soulless, so lifeless that I'd even thought Cersei was a better wife than her at certain areas but this kinda opened my eyes on a new level. And this brings be back to Lady Dustin's remarks about maesters! Fuckign scoundrels
Your theories are some of the best i've ever seen. You guys see things everyone else just looks straight through. Keep up the amazing work!!!
thank you...we will
I think cats thoughts during the bedroom scene were just martins way of putting backround information into the book about winterfell maybe not the best place but cat is doing her duty (giving ned heirs) as in westeroes women dont marry for want but for duty and it brings back the tully words family duty honour with riverrun and lysa and edmure in my opion thats how i see it
thank you, thank you and thank you. I never liked Cat since that chapter in game of thrones. you guys absolutely right about her and can't wait to the next part
Thank you...we really do not like her...she gets even worse...part 2 will be coming soon
The Order of the Green Hand Thats great! and thanks for making it, do you know approximately when will it be ready?
hi! we are trying to decide if we should do a Wars to Come video next or a Catelyn Sucks Part 2. I am trying to figure out a way to see if we can have people vote on it, but so far I have been unsuccessful. haha but I'd say in the next week or 2. Thank you for watching! :)
amen. she sucks
Big E now you guys know the truth, how do you guys feel about yourself
YYYYYAAAASSSSSSS!!!! All the wins for this.
1st off, kudos for the bold all caps TULLY. I almost always refer to her as Catelyn Tully. As me and my friends say in our vids, #ICantWithCatelynTully.
She just knew she was going to get to be a lady of the South again smh. One of the biggest things that gets me with her is her treatment of Jon. She prayed for this boy to die and then lost her nerve and made a promise to give him a mother's love if he lived. Well, Jon lived. And what did she do? Proceeded to call him Bastard every day of his life, with the exception of telling him that he should've fallen out the window instead of Bran. 'Eyeroll'. We all know how well that worked for her; the Gods don't like ugly.
Random tinfoil: I think her biggest problem is that Ned's bastard looks like more of a Stark than her own bastard does. Yes, I just called Robb a bastard. Its one of the lesser known/popular tinfoil theories out there, but I like it and think its true.
Looking forward to the rest of this series. Well done to both of you :)
Thank you...we think all of Catelyn's children are bastards...but not for the same reason people think Robb is. We looked at that very closely, but Catelyn on more than one occasion has thoughts that make it impossible...the best example is when she thinks to herself that Ned spent a fortnight with her and went back to the war, but left her with a son...another time she was watching Robb with his army and thinks to herself that his father taught him well...another time she thought how like his father, he is a good listener, and based off of what we know of Brandon's boisterous personality, that seems impossible, and a lot is made about the difference between maidenhood and maidenhead, but there is really no difference...maidenhood is the state of being an unwed virgin, and maidenhead is the virginity itself...she recalls Ned taking her maidenhood...She also thinks about her and Ned making a king together (Robb being the King)...if she said all those things I'd be inclined to doubt her, especially since I hate her and would love to have another reason to hate her, but I just don't see it as a real possibility
I think the analysis of the first passage you read was a bit hollow. After 17 years of marriage and giving him 5 children, she’s supposed to be in Hallmark movie romance mode every single night they’re together? Plus it’s undermined by the very next passage where it’s stated she hopes do bear him another child. If a woman had no care for her husband she wouldn’t be to concerned with that, especially since she already gave him 5, including 3 sons. She even is saddened that she won’t be near him when Ned tells her she must stay in Winterfell.
Robb sendin' Theon to treat with Balon (against Catelyns advice) caused the ruined of Winterfell
It was Ned’s advice that Catelyn attempted to pass off as her own after insulting and belittling Robb enough times for him to be completely uninterested in anything she had to say. If she really wanted to stop it from happening she would have tried more than once or had her uncle talk to Robb
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand lmao that's ridiculous but if you want
I’m a little confused. It was among the final orders Ned sent to the North. If Catelyn told Robb it was what his father ordered to be done it would have almost certainly been well received. She had just immaculated him in front of a few of his lords to the point that even her idiot brother told her to back off. Then the next time she saw him she argued with him about Theon going. She was right, but she had already worn out her welcome. That’s what happened. You can laugh if you want but facts are facts and no amount of laughing is going to change them
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand the mental Gymnastics you’re going through right now to blame Catelyn for everything is embarrassing
@@TheOrderoftheGreenhand youre bendin' over backwards for crappy hot takes
The character is so well constructed, that you can identify an hysterical personality, you can see it with her impulsive actions, like releasing Jaime.
That's how I came upon this video! I'm in the middle of this Jamie storyline and wondering why on Earth she released him
@@pushista9322 Why on Earth? Her husband and two youngest sons got killed, one of her daughters is a hostage/captive, and the other is lost and thought dead. Her father is dying (or maybe had already died at that point, can't recall), and her sister had forsaken them for the safety of the Vale. The war was going poorly and Winterfell had been sacked, and I think Victarion had already taken Moat Cailin at that point too.
She's deep in grief, mourning what amounts to basically her entire family. If you really can't fathom why a mother would do such a thing then you simply lack empathy and/or have never gone through such circumstances.
@@veila0924 Yes, yes, that's what everyone around Catelyn said. "Mother's madness". But I also remember how she "reluctantly let go of Sansa and Arya in her heart" back in book one, when she sent them to Kingslanding. So she didn't care about them back then (sending them to the family of murderers, which were the Lannisters, to the best of her knowledge).
lol backing up your opinion using every word of her POV chapter. y'all could do these for any other characters that garner your strong opinions with POV chapters. theon? bran? Jon?
If you have any particular chapter in mind, let us know and when we have time we'd be happy to
Wow, such eye opening content. It's truly shocking how most of this is right that in front of the readers eyes but we get caught up in the reading the story to really see what is going on. I am once again blown away by GRRM and his intricate writing, the layer upon layer upon layer of story and scheme truly seems to best match reality. I am so glad you are questioning the narrative and making these videos for us to share your observations. It's funny to me how obvious some of this is once you point it out, you both are gifted in analytical reading I think. Bravo!
Thank you so much...it is truly amazing how much of this stuff slips right past you the first time you read it...he is like a magician...while he has you looking at one hand, the real magic is happening in the other
2k subs, gratz,,, the chan is growing fast. Your theories are different, but interesting, and i'm believing them.
+That Guy thank you so much ! I know it's kinda surreal... haha. But we really appreciate it!
The problem is that Catelyn is the epitome of a Southern Lady of Westeros. What we find despicable and disturbing is normal, even acceptable, for her. What she finds disruptive and disrespectful is what we consider normal.
Westeros is an unjust world, and Catelyn is the result of that injustice. She is classist, racist, ambitious, condescending to certain people, but also loving, delicate, and diplomatic. Her husband, then her son, has complete power over her. She loves them and wants what’s best for them, but her love is warped by her ambitions, forced upon her by her society.
Also, am I the only one concerned when Ned left “red marks” on her arm?
cat is definitely pyshco.... she quick to let go of her girls but fights for her son because she knows that her sons inherit before the daughters....oh and the fact that she's cruel to jon repeatly even up to the day he leaves shoes how messed up this chick is. I'm diggin this channel
She is absolutely awful...Thank you so much
teebaby0486 there is also the fact that when robb tried to legitimize jon she fought against pretending that some fuckboy from the vale was going to be the king of the north the only thing that guy was going to do was surrender and keep winterfell for himself or get murdered and it end up in tyrions hands.
I remember people thought I was stupid for saying Catelyn was a bitch in many ways! I supplied evidence but they always rebutted it with "oh she was grief striken." or "oh she was doing it for her family." and I'm just like: "can't you see she LITERALLY starts a god damn war?????" and people say "Oh it was ALL Baelish!"
Obviously we agree with your assessment...thanks for watching
+The Snake Empire Can you explain how Cat triggered a war?
grimmitachi the taking of Tyrion Lannister, that was a plain act of war taking the son of Tywin Lannister, a challenge to his House, Catelyn started a war because she felt like it, plain and simple.
you actually made it more confusing for me. Isn't it Jamie's fault for pushing her son off a tower? Is it Bran's for loving to climb so much? You left me with more questions than answers.
grimmitachi Sure, Jaime is the one to blame for Bran's problem, but, it all could have been good if Catelyn kept her head and asked Tyrion about the knife or something, instead she chose the route that would lead to violence.
I absolutely hated her in the books, her chapters were painful to read. I was almost glad when she died
Just found this channel yesterday, and I am really happy I did. you guys are blowing my mind!! keep it up
thank you...we will certainly try
I agree for the most part.
She seemed to care about her family and only that, in that regard she's not much better than Cersei.
She had ambitions for her husband becoming Hand, for Sansa's marriage, and an unjustified hate for Jon Snow.
Someone quick to call others 'Oathbreakers' (Jaime, the Freys), while ignoring the oath her own son broke (Robb's betrothal).
Plus, releasing Jaime was abouth the third worst decision after Ned telling Cersei his plans and Robb's marriage.
I have always said that Catelyn was a villain in this story.
+ExBruinsFan agreed !!
I dont like Catelyn, but the way you twist every little detail to put her in bad light is beyond ridiculous
+Random Nickname this video is simply an explanation of what the app says they did. So it's actually not even a little ridiculous. It's accurate
What app?
She’s actually pretty nice in the books. You gotta remember she’s in grief for a lot of the time. (and might I add, GRRM’s portrayal of grief in Catelyn is the most realistic portrayal of grief I’ve ever read)
People don't like her because she's a selfish hypocrite that only cares about her family and no one else.
When her daughter's were under Lannister control she lets Jaime go, then has the AUDACITY to look down on Lord Karstark for grieving over his dead sons?
Saying something along the lines of: "Your sons are dead my daughter's still have a chance."
Despite the fact that she had no idea if they really were and despite the fact that she had no reason to believe the Jaime who she'd already been suspecting of being the one who pushed Bran.
She's almost like a character that was placed in the books to keep the story going because nearly all major story beats tie into her B.S. at one point or another.
Ned going to KL
Hating Jon
Capturing Tyrion.
Getting the Vale involved.
Freeing Jaime.
The Red Wedding.
No other character in this book series has f*cked up the amount of times she has ... Well except the Mad King but that's saying something lol.
@@EL-ISS Catelyn and Stoneheart have different thoughts. Catelyn sees her dead kids as dead kids. She can’t fix that. But she can try to save the alive ones. Karstark (in her eyes) caused the death of her daughters by seeking vengeance for his dead kids, who are *dead.* she never has anything for him grieving, except for the fact that he kills two lannister children. Cant imagine Lannisters would be too happy to trade sansa in after that.
Jaime was her last resort. And thing is, she was right! If Jaime had arrived in time, he would have saved Sansa, at least.
@@atree9284 that works on IFs though, see how in war time you can't work on IFs.
IF Jaime had made it.
IF Cat hadn't captured Tyrion
IF she would've just stayed in the Vale.
I love the Stoneheart character though, she works because it's the sheer hatred Cat has made flesh which is sick.
But I'm not gonna be hypocritical and say it's only Cat who infuriates me. A lot of the Stark men if not all of the are honourable to a fault which gets them killed.
@@EL-ISS i mean you can have your opinion. But everything is an if in situations like this. This was literally her best choice. Cersei said she would kill Sansa if Robb won.
@@atree9284 that's fair, and I get your opinion as well lol. Not here to try and change your mind on a character you enjoy. I just like talking about this stuff hahaha.
Yes, Caitlyn is not the most likeable character, she's jealous, overly proud, selfish, a bad mother who regularly sends Robb/Arya/Jon on massive guilt trips and clearly has her favorite children, but to say she's the worst person ever is so grossly exaggerrated it's infuriating. She made plenty mistakes that came back to bite them, but she also made many good decisions, such as advising Robb not to send Theon to treat with Balon Greyjoy, or advise Robb not to marry Jeyne Westerling for example. She clearly has an agenda, which is to support her children and herself and get them into positions of power but she's never the worst person in the series when you have child rapists and killers like Raff, torturers Ramsay, wicked schemers like Littlefinger and a host of other endless bad guys like the Mountain, Vargo, Armory Lorch, Euron, those nasty kingsguard soldiers etc.
Caitlyn is the epitome of 'the way to hell is paved with good intentions'
What good decisions? I can't think of one...she isn't sadistic like the people you mentioned, but that doesn't make her a better person...and if you look at her thoughts and her actions, it is very hard to say she had good intentions
How does she not have good intentions. She came to the conclusion Tyrion sent the assassin to kill Bran and captured him to avenge her son, not realizing she was set up. She knows Sansa wants to marry Joff and become a queen so she tries her best to make that happen. She knows Robb wants to avenge Ned and does her utmost to support him and gives him good advice (Theon, Jeyne), she tries to make peace between the Baratheon brothers so they can crush the Lannisters together, she gets Walder Frey to send his army to support them, she saw that Brienne didn't kill Renly and tries to stand up and protect her, she knows Littlefinger loved her and asks him to support and protect Eddard for her sake, she wants to save her daughters and releases Jaime to make that happen. She risked her life to protect Bran from that assassin in Winterfell and sits by his side day and night while he's unconscious.
She tries to make the right decisions to push her agenda (which is to support and protect her children and make them happy) but often makes the wrong decisions to get there which gets her family in more trouble instead, because she's too impulsive and emotional which frequently clouds her judgement and makes her short-sighted. Like I said, the way to hell is paved with good intentions. It's only after LS that she turns into a true monster without remorse, a mother's vengeful spirit that has lost everything and lived only for revenge.
and infuriating seems a bit much...you don't know her...she's not your mother, so why you are taking it personally is a little hard to understand
Like I said before...look at her thoughts on a topic, then look at what she does...she is not deranged like cersei...she does things that someone as smart as her knows what the consequences for those she loves will be, and we know that because she thinks it before she does things...then she does them anyways
Hindsight is 20/20, I agree that many of her decisions backfired. Also, sorry about this text wall, I'm bored.
But where do you conjure up that she has malicious thoughts? Even in this very video she frequently admits to being scared and how much she loves Ned. And the whole thing about her and the Maester setting Ned up is entirely based on assumptions, without any evidence whatsoever. If Cait had planned to set up Ned or something like that, she'd have thought about it, just like Cersei does in her own chapters. When Cersei wants to get somebody in trouble she thinks about it and then acts, that's what POV chapters are for. So if Cait had set anything up, she'd at least have thought about it as well (which she never hinted at once. Your only arguments are that Luwin took the box apart, and that they 'might' have been able to set something up because they have history together and Ned was at his meeting. But there is no mention of her actually harboring any ill will).
That's the whole purpose of POV chapters, to give the reader an idea what the character 'actually' is thinking. Or are you saying she has two separate minds, one happy facade for the reader and one malicious and dark one she hides from the reader/isn't even aware of herself? Because, and this is a fact, in none of her chapters does she ever harbor bad intentions towards her own family.
She always repeats her love for her children and Ned and most of her major decisions are with that in mind. When she frees Jaime she doesn't think about Karstark rebelling and Robb having to behead him, she thinks about freeing her daughters and that she is prepared to bear the shame of a traitor if she must in order to see her daughters again.
When she treats with the Freys she could never have fathomed those would eventually end up betraying her, because the Freys only start plotting against Robb once he marries Jeyne, which Cait was extremely against. Prior to that the Freys were a real asset in the war thanks to Cait.
When she captures Tyrion it's recently after she concluded he was the mastermind behind the assassin in Winterfell (LF set her up and claimed it was Tyrion's dagger during her visit in KL), and since she just was on her way back from King's Landing (where LF had promised her to look out for Ned for her sake, and she knows LF still loves her) she felt reasonably safe to kidnap Tyrion right then and there to avenge Bran herself. In her mind that was the only chance to capture Tyrion as he'd be untouchable once he returns to King's Landing or Casterly Rock. Not to mention, as far as she knew, Ned supposedly had the City Watch on his side along with his own soldiers, if LF had kept his promise. (which, again, she stated multiple times she trusted in. The thought of LF betraying Ned never entered her mind).
Kidnapping Tyrion and trusting LF were her biggest mistakes, and the most naive ones. But she was a mother traumatized by her son having been pushed off a tower (and being in a coma) and subsequently attacked by an assassin where she had to risk her life to protect him. Of course she'd act impulsive and emotional when suddenly confronted with the supposed killer while she has the larger force. Anybody would.
And knowing consequences doesn't necessarily stop somebody from doing something, especially when emotions are involved. When a father kills his daughter's rapist he knows the consenquences for him and still does it. When I don't do homework I know I'll get in trouble next day and still don't do them. Jon knows he can't leave the Watch and still wants to in order to save 'Arya' from Ramsay, being fully aware of the consequences.