Possibility of Salvation Among the Unevangelized || Modern Theology Explained
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ค. 2021
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Do you need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven? Modern theologians have lots of opinions on this question. In this video I attempt to summarize the current state of the debate. Hopefully you find this helpful!
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Excellent presentation. This is a great ministry for you Caleb, hope you continue.
Looking forward to the next book review/summary!
It is a tragedy you have such a small following. This video is enormously helpful. Thank you, Caleb.
I like your approach to these topics and how you present various viewpoints. I transitioned to more of a universalist position in recent years after many years as a form of exclusionist. I do believe that ultimately God's will and plan will be done and that gives me great comfort and security. Thanks for the effort and study you have put into this.
I love the tables! This is awesome. Great job Caleb. I’m in the agnostic camp. Submit to the will of the Lord, and trust in his justice, and mercy.
"The debate has gotten hotter..." There's a joke in here somewhere.
One of my favorite CSLewis quotes is, “Once a man is joined to God how can he not live forever? Once a man is separated from God, what can he do but wither and die?” (Quoting from memory so may not be verbatim.) That doesn’t seem to square at all with the idea of a never-ending process of dehumanizing, which obviously presupposes the immortality of the “soul.”
THIS IS AWESOME. THANKS!!!
Great presentation, Caleb! Through the years I've went from ECT, to conditionalism, now I'm a supporter of the Victorious Gospel. If this matters to you, I think you've presented things very objectively and I don't feel misrepresented at all. :)
@mineben256 Sure, buddy.
@mineben256 Have you actually engaged with the proper arguments? Those are old and answered responses you have here.
I am not interested in arguing though. If you wish, read St. Gregory of Nyssa, or at least David Bentley Hart.
Ultimately, hell as we hear about it, is quite problematic both theologically and philosophically. Anyone in my close circle who has tried to take me on this case, is now at least a hopeful universalist, or simply scared brainless of eternal punishment to the point where they refuse to hear any arguments to the contrary.
I have yet to find someone who properly engages universalist arguments with adequate contraarguments. People usually strawman them.
@mineben256 How did you come to the conclusion that the Bible is 100% accurate? And also, how did many Church fathers come to the conclusion of apokatastasis, and yet, they believed in Biblical authority as well?
You can check The Evangelical Universalist as an easy read, but "That All Shall Be Saved" has the better arguments.
@Benjamin Before hurling assumptions such as "one of his premises must be wrong", maybe try looking at it first? Just a suggestion.
Also, if you have never looked into any scriptural arguments for the Bible, please, do so. I used to scoff at universalist claims, considering them to be careless. I couldn't be further from the truth.
As for the Church fathers - you'd be surprised. It's not that small a number at all. And the position wasn't consider heretical either, neither were Origen's real views ever condemned. Check out Ilaria Ramelli's work (especially the first volume of A Larger Hope).
I can't see how "Scripture trumps all" is a valid argument though. There are many more universalist passages than any speaking of eternal (non actually eternal, but that's another matter) punishment.
Also ECT makes God incoherent and a lover of unequal scales and measures. No kind of crime deserves an infinite punishment.
The reason most people do not believe in universalism is because of fear and tradition. Bias, in other words. There are very few people who've thought through the implications of ECT and still support it. Most are Calvinists.
@Benjamin You continue down the line of not engaging with any actual arguments. No one is talking about a soft and cuddly god. We are talking about a victorious God.
There it is simply put:
Does God want to save everybody? - I'd argue He does.
Can He? - I mean... He's God. I would be careful to say what He can or cannot do.
So if He wants to save everyone and CAN save everyone, would He? Why or why not?
You can come up with scriptural passages, so can I. You say I am confused, I can flip that around though.
We can't do anything to God and in no way diminish Him. What kind of God would He be if that was the case? Sins are not "against God" in the sense that you go and spit on God. Sins are against God in the sense that sin is death and God is life.
But even under your logic, the whole thing crumbles. I am a finite creature and I am incapable of an infinite crime. Even if I am somehow stealing God's glory, for me to be guilty of an infinite crime, I have to steal the entire thing (which is infinite). It makes zero philosophical sense.
"God has the right to do whatever He pleases." - I don't disagree. But since He is Love, and Goodness, and Beauty, I somehow don't see myself being more merciful than Him.
It wasn't my choice to be born, especially not in a fallen state (or with death rampant in the world). And to think that my actions are not influenced by all the people and circumstances around me and I am somehow completely free to make arbitrary choices for no reason is also kind of nonsense.
God is victorious. He doesn't let the devil score at all. If you think universalism is somehow weak, you've missed the point. There will be punishment. It will be painful. But if you believe only to escape hell and you think "If everyone is saved, then no point bothering with Christianity" than you have no idea what you believe in. You are in for your own selfish reasons and to save your own butt. That ain't what Christianity is about, my friend. Christianity isn't a fire insurance policy. We don't follow Christ to not go to hell - our life aside from Him is already hell. We follow Him, because He's the Way, the Truth and the Life. Because He is Love and we are called to it also.
P.S. The murdering of babies is likely not how it happened either.
11:54 Job was allowed to press God for an answer. He didn't get it, or not the answer he expected, but I don't remember Job getting penalized for asking.
Thoughts on Grudem?
Exclusivist - ECT
Salvation here is framed in these videos according to the exclusivist, reformed, evangelical, eternal conscious torment, perspective. Universalists and many in the inclusivist camps would say the way you are even using the word salvation assumes a mistaken notion of what we are being saved from and saved for. David B Hart, for example, would not say universalism is about Jesus saving all humans eventually from God’s divine just punishment for sin, which is hell (this is a reformed story in his view and not the biblical one). He would define salvation in terms of transformation from sin, freed in our wills, rescued from Satan’s deception, and resurrection from death because of Christ and the Holy Spirit, in a final age of ages. His view simply has no place for a God who wrath’s people in retribution for rebellion and then sends them to hell for all eternity. He tells the story completely differently so salvation in his view is understood differently. The same goes for many inclusivists, many don’t use salvation as a way of talking about who will be saved from ECT or hell. Christus Victor as an atonement theory speaks of salvation as a rescue from sin (not punishment for sin), death, and the devil. Reformed theology who hold to a Christus Victor position would tack on hell to this list. I do love your videos though; very helpful and needed in our day to realize that there are many perspectives and good biblical scholars who love Jesus but differ in their conclusions.
9:28 not all theologies say it's outside of God's love.
Can be? The Gospel says we are.
I'm kind of a pluralist in the sense that I think most religions have some of the truth, and every good gift and every perfect gift is from above. Paul himself quotes pagan hymns to Zues and says the Greeks while they where yet heathen worshiped the unknown God.
That being said I think Christianity (depending on what we mean by that word) is the truth, though not the whole truth (we see through a glass darkly) at least all the truth God has made explicitly revealed at this time.
I think next to Christianity Buddhism, stoic and platonic philosophy and Norse paganism are the closest to the truth. Plato said that the man who would wish to be, and not simply to appear, just would be tortured and endure all humiliation and be crucified.
Thor in Ragnarok lays down his life to defeat a serpent that encircles the world, using a vaugely cruciform object.
I didn't know about Calvin and Doug Wilson's views... or CS Lewis' animalistic view, but I should have known from His book The Lion, the Witch, and the Warthog.
Warthog?
❤️
7:34 all theologies? Really all?
The question arises what kind of christian belief is "really true". From the conservative Orthodox / Roman Catholic perspective the most exclusive Protestant exclusivists are far too universal...