In the 70's, we tied the rope around our waists and that was it, bb. In the 80's, I got my hand on a clog belt like the one you're testing, but it was 3" I think with no padding. I did a lot of damage falling on only a waist strap or 3 wraps of the rope tied off with a bowline. Then we got the idea to add a 1" figure 8 loop, worn on our thighs, clipped to the rope above. Game changer, although It did have a tendency to flip you upside down. Ah, the good old days.
With that last test, you mentioned something SO important. I feel that at some point, with easily inspected gear that isn't as subject to cyclic loading, if it's for personal use, I'd want it to fail. I don't want something that could potentially break my spine but leave me alive and unable to do anything when it could either fail and let something more forgiving save me or fail and let me fall to a quick death. Not sure if a fall on a big wall would be appropriate for the latter, but the former, definitely
Awesome to see Skot getting some promo - on my last yosemite trip I quickly found my old alfifi was worn out (the teeth eventually wear down on the webbing cam)- skots service was awesome and he got one out to me express, looking forward to wearing my new one out so I can try the updated alfifi.
I have an old German climbing safety book (Sicherheit und Risiko in Fels und Eis, by Pit Schubert, a European climbing pioneer) and it shows some photos of people using a bivi strap as climbing harness. You can imagine how their spines looked like after a lead-fall.
On Vivi belt~ learned bowline on coil with 3 wraps of Goldline around the waist, moved to Sammi belt using many wraps of webbing for the in, because the more your weight was spread on the tie in the longer you had before passing out from hanging from the rope. Now we use harnesses to really spread the load. The vivi belt seems like a real step backwards, you would only have a few minutes of "hang time"
Go support Skot! He makes super awesome stuff and is a great guy. His hook bags are great for making sure hooks don't err... Hook when you don't want them to.
I enjoy watching your channel and seeing you and your team test-break all the gear you talk about and I get to thinking about some of the products you test. I'm not a climber by any means at all, AND with that said, 2:12 if you can easily bend it with your hands, why doesn't Skot make the metal hook thicker from stronger steel or weld two pieces together so it can't be bent so easily? Maybe it can get a lot more Kilonewtons out of the slide snap machine as well. Please don't put any hate comments on my post. Like I said, I'm not a climber. I'm just trying to understand the reason for that item being made like that.
That hook on the Alfifi would probably be strengthened a LOT by putting a "fuller" (blacksmithing speak for making the metal have some 3d shape by putting a cup shape around the hook...... not 100% sure how to explain it) style undent into the hook running with the hook. It should make it harder to bend.
Just a small detail: I'm guessing that, at 1:11, when you say "not on my gear loops" you actually mean "not on my belay/rappel loops"; attaching anything intended for bodyweight support to a gear loop would make no sense at all. [Vaguely amusing tale, albeit involving rather more than bodyweight : I met a guy who took a short daisy fall on the top pitch of Mescalito having forgotten to switch the daisy to his belay loop from the gear loop on which he'd been carrying it; the gear loop broke, thereby liberating several cams that were also racked there. I heard that Chongo was able to re-unite them!]
Wow. I watch every episode at least 20x and at least 5 people watch it before publish. It’s amazing how things slip past all that. Yes, belay loop is what I meant. Thanks!
speaking of gear that changes big wall climbing: there's a video from Stewart Marshall about a modified sala-rollgliss being used as a mid-line-attachable powered ascender. my calculations say a big powertool battery (8ah, 20v) could haul a ~60 kilo pig at least 3, but maybe even 5 pitches. you may see it as cheating, but pigs that almost carry themselves are not too far into the future i don't think. big wall glamping?
For context, 5kN is roughly the force applied by 1100 lbs stationary, so that's approximately 400kg of weight on the first hook to bend it on the strong axis
Yes. Bomber if only sitting on it. Slip and whip on it and you can get that 5ish kN number.
2 ปีที่แล้ว +2
i think you coud use one heat camera along normal. ;) Probably can see where it destroys things with friction. Probably can find some cheap post covid when everyone was buying them.
I think I did but it would the episode that never ends and it wasn’t any different than the others. I spend about 8 hours editing to cut cut cut to keep it tight
You sleeping strap made me wonder if you have ever tested caving belts? Am I caver rarther than climber and we trust ours belts alot, I have done numerous absails with just my belt.
Be aware, I work with those aluminum ferrules and they will pop off the end of a loop like that fairly easily and get lost. Also it’s terribly concerning to realize how much Kn my current weight produces…
This probably isn’t anything to do with climbing but is there ever a time where you have a breaking strength quoted and you want it to break at that value or LESS? With climbing obvs they’re going to quote less to make sure. But is there ever anything where the quoted value is over optimistic as you want it to break?
I wouldn't bounce test something that breaks at under about 3 kN. You can easily get more than double your bodyweight (plus the weight of your gear) when bouncing, so you are going to break it. If you are going to rely on anything that weak, you need to put your weight on it gently.
What it does, it does faster and better then the connect. Partly because the hook and cam are easy in the hand and one single piece, Partly because how the cam lever feels when you release it under load. What it does is only ever always for body position and NEVER EVER NOT IN 1000000 YEARS a personal anchor.
The alfifi is what Carson here says but the personal anchor isn’t better than petzl adjust. However the adjust can’t be released while there is any pressure on it. That’s why I like the yates personal anchors. It’s got the benefits of the alfifi but safe enough to use as a personal anchor. However those buckles are heavier. Pros and cons to everything
@@Vakarm340 Sorry, I absolutely misunderstood you. The buckle and webbing stuff, for whatever reason, kind of makes me nervous. Partly because on webbing the impact generated by distance is a lot more important then fall factor I personally think the length should always tended, and that is not something I'm ok with in a personal anchor. I know there are people that use them like that, but I think we can see that one bad case scenario could leave you attached but hurting at the end of a device which is no longer safe to use.
He actually spends quite a bit on the alfifi buckle hardware to make sure the quality is consistent. You can see in our test it is not the part that fails.
The “straps” that you are using, look like the same ones we use for keeping our dirt bikes from flying out of our trucks, a “tie down”. I’ve seen them fail, and am not sure I’d trust my life to one, or more even.
99% of the time these personal anchors are just for positioning yourself as you crawl up a wall and call it a good time. The idea is that you are always tied into your rope and that is ultimately keeping you “safe”.
In addition to not trusting your life solely to these, the straps on them are likely far stronger than bike tie down straps. Webbing comes in a huge range of qualities/strengths, I would be surprised if bike tie downs were even rated at all whereas climbing-grade webbing will be.
my guess is you want the fixed wall hardware (bolts/hangers/chains/etc) stronger so you wear out your own gear instead... a sort of planned preservation... also aluminum is much lighter to carry with you (biners, cams, etc)
316 stainless is excellent if you want something strong which will hold up to marine environments/salt spray, acidic atmosphere, acid, but it has a lower tensile strength and strength to weight ratio than 7075 aluminum or even brass. The advantage of steel vs aluminum is that it can be harder and it has no fatigue limit (good for bolts!), but a martensitic stainless steel in the 400 series or a fancy precipitation hardening stainless would be a much better choice for climbing gear.
For personal gear aeronautical grade aluminum alloys have been the standar for a long time... mainly because of the weight. Steel carabiners weigh as much as 3-6 aluminum carabiners
Our blog has the data www.hownot2.com/post/skots-wall-gear
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"Oh, it has welded itself from the heat"..got me thinking...how cool would it be to catch an infrared image of the sample being pulled...VERY!
Yeah, that is a great idea. I hope they do that in the future.
In the 70's, we tied the rope around our waists and that was it, bb. In the 80's, I got my hand on a clog belt like the one you're testing, but it was 3" I think with no padding. I did a lot of damage falling on only a waist strap or 3 wraps of the rope tied off with a bowline. Then we got the idea to add a 1" figure 8 loop, worn on our thighs, clipped to the rope above. Game changer, although It did have a tendency to flip you upside down. Ah, the good old days.
How could you flip upside down with balls that big?
And then there are people who think the grigri is not safe, because it is too safe...
We have come a quite long way!
Until you showed the written instructions for the Alfifi hook, I thought you were calling it “the ol’ Fifi hook”
Thanks for introducing me to Skotswallgear. Happy new year to all.
With that last test, you mentioned something SO important. I feel that at some point, with easily inspected gear that isn't as subject to cyclic loading, if it's for personal use, I'd want it to fail. I don't want something that could potentially break my spine but leave me alive and unable to do anything when it could either fail and let something more forgiving save me or fail and let me fall to a quick death. Not sure if a fall on a big wall would be appropriate for the latter, but the former, definitely
Awesome to see Skot getting some promo - on my last yosemite trip I quickly found my old alfifi was worn out (the teeth eventually wear down on the webbing cam)- skots service was awesome and he got one out to me express, looking forward to wearing my new one out so I can try the updated alfifi.
I've purchased an Alfifi from Skot before, really nice guy, and the Alfifi is a must for big walling.
I have an old German climbing safety book (Sicherheit und Risiko in Fels und Eis, by Pit Schubert, a European climbing pioneer) and it shows some photos of people using a bivi strap as climbing harness. You can imagine how their spines looked like after a lead-fall.
On Vivi belt~ learned bowline on coil with 3 wraps of Goldline around the waist, moved to Sammi belt using many wraps of webbing for the in, because the more your weight was spread on the tie in the longer you had before passing out from hanging from the rope. Now we use harnesses to really spread the load. The vivi belt seems like a real step backwards, you would only have a few minutes of "hang time"
Bivi. as in Bivouac. it is just to keep you from dying if you roll of a ledge while you are sleeping.
Nice safety squint at 13:50. "I blinked, I think that made it safer"
Add a bench vise to your climbing harness. 🤣🤣
I have an Alfifi and I love it. Skots been an awesome person to buy from super friendly!
For the cinch loops have you tried an equivalent dyneema loop with a slipknot in it ? Would be curious how strong that would be. Probably lighter too.
Very nice 👌 good take away to not overly trust non-life support gear.
10:04 that's just basic rigging, your rivet hanger, just like a sling, is weaker when it's choked as opposed to basketed.
Go support Skot! He makes super awesome stuff and is a great guy. His hook bags are great for making sure hooks don't err... Hook when you don't want them to.
I enjoy watching your channel and seeing you and your team test-break all the gear you talk about and I get to thinking about some of the products you test. I'm not a climber by any means at all, AND with that said, 2:12 if you can easily bend it with your hands, why doesn't Skot make the metal hook thicker from stronger steel or weld two pieces together so it can't be bent so easily? Maybe it can get a lot more Kilonewtons out of the slide snap machine as well. Please don't put any hate comments on my post. Like I said, I'm not a climber. I'm just trying to understand the reason for that item being made like that.
Random and unrelated but: hardware store steel cable
I do a lot of weird TRS stuff where it would be affordable and handy
That hook on the Alfifi would probably be strengthened a LOT by putting a "fuller" (blacksmithing speak for making the metal have some 3d shape by putting a cup shape around the hook...... not 100% sure how to explain it) style undent into the hook running with the hook. It should make it harder to bend.
you may wanna have a thermal camera also, even an old cat s60 will do -nice to see how hot things become
Just a small detail: I'm guessing that, at 1:11, when you say "not on my gear loops" you actually mean "not on my belay/rappel loops"; attaching anything intended for bodyweight support to a gear loop would make no sense at all. [Vaguely amusing tale, albeit involving rather more than bodyweight : I met a guy who took a short daisy fall on the top pitch of Mescalito having forgotten to switch the daisy to his belay loop from the gear loop on which he'd been carrying it; the gear loop broke, thereby liberating several cams that were also racked there. I heard that Chongo was able to re-unite them!]
No, he meant on the gear loops as in don't sleep on them because it's uncomfortable. Hence the minimalistic harness thingy.
Wow. I watch every episode at least 20x and at least 5 people watch it before publish. It’s amazing how things slip past all that. Yes, belay loop is what I meant. Thanks!
Thank you. Very informative.
I'd orient that friction device below the hook 90 deg. Give you more clearance so you wouldn't cam it out.
I'm confident that is nothing more than a slightly modified tie down strap that has been around 30+ years for motorcycles, ATVs, etc
Was that Alfifi A3 hook heat treated? 4130 is typically less then 50% as strong if not heat treated.
speaking of gear that changes big wall climbing: there's a video from Stewart Marshall about a modified sala-rollgliss being used as a mid-line-attachable powered ascender. my calculations say a big powertool battery (8ah, 20v) could haul a ~60 kilo pig at least 3, but maybe even 5 pitches. you may see it as cheating, but pigs that almost carry themselves are not too far into the future i don't think. big wall glamping?
For context, 5kN is roughly the force applied by 1100 lbs stationary, so that's approximately 400kg of weight on the first hook to bend it on the strong axis
5kN is pretty exactly 500kg
@@dabj9546 that is very true, perhaps I should have proofread my comment. Thank you for catching my careless mistake
Yes. Bomber if only sitting on it. Slip and whip on it and you can get that 5ish kN number.
i think you coud use one heat camera along normal. ;) Probably can see where it destroys things with friction. Probably can find some cheap post covid when everyone was buying them.
Should have bent back the hook and test again on the 304 bonus test.
I think I did but it would the episode that never ends and it wasn’t any different than the others. I spend about 8 hours editing to cut cut cut to keep it tight
Ouch. If you hammered that out, would anyone let you have an x-ray, in your lab or somewhere else?
You sleeping strap made me wonder if you have ever tested caving belts? Am I caver rarther than climber and we trust ours belts alot, I have done numerous absails with just my belt.
Be aware, I work with those aluminum ferrules and they will pop off the end of a loop like that fairly easily and get lost. Also it’s terribly concerning to realize how much Kn my current weight produces…
This probably isn’t anything to do with climbing but is there ever a time where you have a breaking strength quoted and you want it to break at that value or LESS?
With climbing obvs they’re going to quote less to make sure. But is there ever anything where the quoted value is over optimistic as you want it to break?
Maybe something like the force a screamer activates at?
But then you still want the overall breaking strength to be more than what's quoted
Sería cool que tuvieras cámaras de calor
If there is any recoil in the stretch the hook will jump from the carabiner
I wouldn't bounce test something that breaks at under about 3 kN. You can easily get more than double your bodyweight (plus the weight of your gear) when bouncing, so you are going to break it. If you are going to rely on anything that weak, you need to put your weight on it gently.
I don't see a reason to use Skot Adjustable personal anchor over a Petzl Connect Adjust, someone have the answer ?
What it does, it does faster and better then the connect. Partly because the hook and cam are easy in the hand and one single piece, Partly because how the cam lever feels when you release it under load. What it does is only ever always for body position and NEVER EVER NOT IN 1000000 YEARS a personal anchor.
The alfifi is what Carson here says but the personal anchor isn’t better than petzl adjust. However the adjust can’t be released while there is any pressure on it. That’s why I like the yates personal anchors. It’s got the benefits of the alfifi but safe enough to use as a personal anchor. However those buckles are heavier. Pros and cons to everything
@@HowNOT2 thanks for the answer !
@@carsonmcmahon8830 I was talking about the personal anchor, not the alfifi.
@@Vakarm340 Sorry, I absolutely misunderstood you. The buckle and webbing stuff, for whatever reason, kind of makes me nervous. Partly because on webbing the impact generated by distance is a lot more important then fall factor I personally think the length should always tended, and that is not something I'm ok with in a personal anchor. I know there are people that use them like that, but I think we can see that one bad case scenario could leave you attached but hurting at the end of a device which is no longer safe to use.
1:48 that sinch on the strap looks a little too harbor freight for my taste, ty
He actually spends quite a bit on the alfifi buckle hardware to make sure the quality is consistent. You can see in our test it is not the part that fails.
So, the easy way to spot Ryan is to look for the guy dragging a full size shop vise up a wall.
The “straps” that you are using, look like the same ones we use for keeping our dirt bikes from flying out of our trucks, a “tie down”. I’ve seen them fail, and am not sure I’d trust my life to one, or more even.
It’s a fifi for aid positioning, you’re not trusting your life to it.
99% of the time these personal anchors are just for positioning yourself as you crawl up a wall and call it a good time. The idea is that you are always tied into your rope and that is ultimately keeping you “safe”.
If the bikes do fly out of the truck, would that put other people's life at risk?
In addition to not trusting your life solely to these, the straps on them are likely far stronger than bike tie down straps. Webbing comes in a huge range of qualities/strengths, I would be surprised if bike tie downs were even rated at all whereas climbing-grade webbing will be.
Those 1/16 butterflies seems sketchy af. Like there is no way, get the 3/32 in there min
Surprised that hook is not ht spring steel pretty flimsy.
Haa this is good for me to watch. I'm 6'6 310lbs And I like to climb lol. Makes me feel not very safe 😂 not super good enough.
#theweldshold
You say super good enough but I'm 280 pounds without gear and that was a 300 pound drop test so....
Trust me. You don’t want it holding more than that. That is just for positioning and your rope should do the catching.
How not 2 blacksmith
Is there a specific reason why we don't see 316 stainless steel used in climbing gear?
You mean besides a a healthy percentage of new climbing bolts and hangers being installed.
my guess is you want the fixed wall hardware (bolts/hangers/chains/etc) stronger so you wear out your own gear instead... a sort of planned preservation... also aluminum is much lighter to carry with you (biners, cams, etc)
316 stainless is excellent if you want something strong which will hold up to marine environments/salt spray, acidic atmosphere, acid, but it has a lower tensile strength and strength to weight ratio than 7075 aluminum or even brass.
The advantage of steel vs aluminum is that it can be harder and it has no fatigue limit (good for bolts!), but a martensitic stainless steel in the 400 series or a fancy precipitation hardening stainless would be a much better choice for climbing gear.
For personal gear aeronautical grade aluminum alloys have been the standar for a long time... mainly because of the weight. Steel carabiners weigh as much as 3-6 aluminum carabiners
What I learned from this video is never climb without your bench vise
I'm supposed you don't film these breaks with infrared camera
Lol fifi... If you know you know
You sure glossed over the poop-tube really fast.... Gonna need a whole video on the topic pls
Already did 2 videos on the topic.
how it got so hot out there? you should have a thermal camera rigged there years ago. really, this is kinda ridiculous
I wouldn’t use that hook thing if you paid me.
man o man . once metal bends from it original shape the metal has lost tensile strength NEVER NEVER be used again "BIG BALLS IS RIGHT"
That's just a tie down strap with a mild steel hook welded to it, no thanks
It’s only meant for body weight. If you are trusting your life to any of it you are doing it wrong. It’s plenty safe enough for what it’s meant to do.
Don’t forget to take the climbing rope. That’s the thing that keeps you safe to go down (slow or fast). All the other stuff gets you up the rock.