This rappel ring could kill someone
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 พ.ค. 2024
- How strong are rappel rings? It only needs to be about 2x more than your weight to hold you during a rappel (in case you don't rappel smooth). Add a little safety ratio for good measure and it's super good enough. The problem is if it wears down. / kevhamrich pulled this rolled aluminum SMC rappel ring off a popular route in Yosemite and it broke at 1.5kN instead of it's 14kN it is rate for, which is legitimately dangerous.
Our results and more thoughts are on our blog page: www.hownot2.com/post/rappel-ring
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Intro
00:45 Aluminum Tests
03:40 Titanium Tests
06:01 Steel Tests
09:06 Deadly Aluminum Ring
09:47 When to use each one
12:24 Bonus Test: Line Locker
I experimented with more text on screen to see if it helps the audience follow along with either MBS or the results or which test we are on. What do you think? FYI: the chart of data is on the blog www.hownot2.com/post/rappel-ring
Check out our new store! hownot2.store/
Love it!
Edit: It would also be cool to see the live graph so we can see how the samples react to the applied force in real time (if possible)
Love it. Makes it super easy to follow.
Love it !
I love it!
@@samlauer1 that is something I definitely want to do soon
Off brand Titanium #2 creaked in the rhythm of the Super Mario Bros theme before it broke!
Amazing! 🤣
I heard that too! I had the video on in the background and I had to pay attention when I heard the super Mario bros theme.
5:40
Oh man I was about to comment that 🤣
Awesome lol. Do do dooo do do doo! Baam!
I love the perfect Mario theme beat at 5:40 Good job setting it up to make sure that exact sound happened! Nintendo will now be in touch through their lawyers.
I was hoping someone would comment cuz I heard that immediately
@@Bonavire someone did
1 week earlier
I didn't catch that when I watched through but you are totally right lmao. Perfect tempo and everything.
I noticed it!!! then I saw it was replayed a lot so I knew I would fine a comment about it haha
It's the ping pong video all over again
Thanks so much for breaking one of my Anchor Rings, guys!
That's something that I've never managed to do as my load cell is 'only' rated to 50kN, with an allowance that it can be taken to an absolute maximum of 75kN 😊💪
It’s an impressive ring!
You could just add a roll and double the power
@@HowNOT2 where can i buy that titanium ring
I could also use a ref link for a strong titanium karabiner hook
You make good stuff
Those Fixe steel rings are impressive. Those are the same ones that are on the bottom horizontal ring of those vertical chain anchors. Next time I hear somebody grumble that the ring is not redundant, I’ll be sure and remind them of your testing. 👍
Remind them their rope and harness aren’t redundant either haha
I think the flex of the weld was what was causing some of them to fail lower then others but still impressive, I would defiantly feel much safer with the forged ones.
@@Riiyan kind of interesting because welds are usually stronger than the base material. However "strength" can be measured in lots of different ways. Welding material also heat treats it which makes it more brittle, not exactly a property you want in something that is going to stretch.
how on earth are you not breaking anything else in there under these insane forces? "holy s&*t" indeed. also, Bobby makes me so happy, he's the best
they probably broke the machine at least a few times before it got that strong. trial and error works.
@@TheBoatPirate whenever it breaks, add more steel. Eventually it will stop breaking lol
@Probably inconsistent nothin too strong ever broke! ROFLMFAO
I’m a member of a U.S. Army Rescue team. I love watching your videos and sharing them with other Soldiers. A lot of your videos definitely help build confidence in our newer members. So thanks!
Ah, I finally get it. Support our troops. It's not bromide, it's about tensile strength.
@@amarissimus29 Take your meds.
@@amarissimus29 Take your meds.
You mean, telling them their equipment is military grade, doesn't instill confidence? 😂
Thermal camera view for the experiments would make for some awsome footage
Stress testing should be an industry standard. This stuff is all too common. Thanks for reintroducing these facts!
Isn't it standard? I'm sure manufacturers need to test if they want an ANSI rating on their gear
If you pulled the first titanium one slower you coulda probably made it even more elongated. Strain rate hardening vs strain hardening etc etc
I have never done anything to do with rappelling or anything related in any way, but TH-cam recomm3nded this to me and I found this super interesting. Thank you guys for amazing content
Your wife is trying to get you into and then she's going to replace your rings with the failed ones! Did she recently update your life insurance? 😆
Same thing here @Ozygoliath9599, it was still very cool.
as an aero space welder im surpized that the welded stainless rings were not 100% penitration welds. Which is why it failed on the weld joint and no somewhere else on the ring. If it were 100% penitration and broke on the weld you would have seen solid metall all the way through and it looks like you could see the flats or the bevel of the parent ring matterial. Of couse it meets the kN rating that its designed for, but if they were to weld it with 100% penitration i bet it would contend with the forged rings.
more arborist gear!!! we need it !! friction savers, fisherman’s knot, friction savers
yeeees trees.
How2arborist
@@Saml3227 there’s an idea
The thing creaking to the rhythm of the SMB theme at 5:43 made me crack up a bit
i love how fast you guys shift over to the next frame instead of DRAGGING IT OUT SO LONG!!! love you guys instant sub!
Love seeing Bobby back in a video! Awesome classic break test video and super informative. Thanks!
The welds on the rings would seem to be less likely to fail if they were welded in an oval shape (like chain links usually are). The one y'all tested with the weld on the anchor didn't hinge open like the ones with the weld on the anchor. The anchor tended to make it pull uniformly across the entire weld instead of stressing the inside edge first. If those rings were ovals, the weld would tend to pull on all parts of the weld.
Worth testing?
You mean instead of a ring to have an oval? If so then then it would put the wear in only one spot and that was the whole point of using rings that would turn randomly and wear out in multiple spots. If you mean the weld bead being bigger, that might work but would surely mess with the uniformity of wear too.
@@dragoscoco2173 You're right. So the dilemma becomes: do you want a strong anchor? or an evenly wearing one? 🤔
A welded ring that will handle ~50kN is probably super good enough.
The welds on chain links are forge welded, where the link ends are heated and pressed together without any filler metal, so the weld conducts of only the base metal, the filler being provided by the displacement of the base, so it ends up being as strong as the link stock, and possibly a little harder due the rapid cooling; In every chain failure that i ever saw, the link stretched and failed on the side opposite the weld. Of course, this type of weld on climbing equipment is probably not practical, cz of the low production volume. Link chains are made in very high volumes by extremely expensive automated machinery.
@@joelee2371 usually a weld is quite a bit stronger than the weldment. That's why breaks usually occur right beside the weld.
Great thoughts within the last part (and, the entire video as always). I have honestly never considered that there could be environmental impacts with some of the (arguably) small pieces of gear we leave on rock. I'm going to keep this in mind for the future, I don't often re-bolt / change out hardware myself; but it's really nice to know in any case. Perhaps I'll find something like that one day, and be all the wiser about why it may be harmful. Awesome stuff as always guys, you're constantly making our community a better place.
This was really interesting, it does make a lot of sense they the forged stainless performs better than the welded ring but I was very surprised with how much better and how the position of the weld matters.
The problem with weldments is that you generally have to use a lower strength weld filler to prevent cracking and embrittlement as the weld cools. This results in a weaker spot, but, as you saw, the weld was still stronger than the required minimum. I use welded steel rings of 3/8" steel with complete confidence. Also, if the ends are bevelled instead of flat, you get a lap weld which is MUCH stronger than than a butt weld, cz the stress on the weld is a shear instead of a straight pull; this can make the weld actually as strong as the ring stock itself.
@@joelee2371 that would actually be interesting to bevel and fill the weld instead of butt weld. Like you mentioned I'm sure that substantially stronger. And yeah I'd have full confidence in a welded ring as long it it wasnt hollow
Amasing video, really nice to see rappel rings being actively tested by other people than the companies that maked them
Thank you so much for doing these tests. It helps validate manufacturer data and shows some of the results of sketchy practices.
Tension vs shear loads in welds. Pretty obvious.
Also: Buy once cry once. Spend the money for Ti or forged steel and fear not. Rolled AL is cheap but wears incredibly quickly.
Good titanium alloy. I've never seen it pulled like taffy before. Your pulling rig is impressive.
Interesting. Also very informative! Thank you for the info on why/when Titanium (I am guessing it is a lot more $) should be used, and the problems of Galvanized (Zinc coated) stuff left alone in nature.
There's been some commotion about the welded steel rings overhere, where cracks in the weld would mean sure death. So I was wondering what force a cracked ring would still support before it opens up. Could you cut a couple with a handsaw and test them please?
If I had to guess, it would be between 4-8kn and most likely 6kn. I think an open ring would still hold a rappel but I haven’t officially tested that before.
@@HowNOT2 cheers!
If you get the chance, pop one on the rig for us 😉
Hi, I’ve done a bunch of blacksmithing, so I know a bit about metals. I think the titanium is not getting hot because of the force, directly, but because of the deformation done by the force. That’s why the steel didn’t get as hot! It takes a lot of energy to move metal, and when it does move all of that goes into friction/heating
Agreed - it's all Energy = Force x Distance. So if it stretches heaps (more distance) when a decent force is applied it'll heat more.
Indeed. If it stretched, say 3 cm @ 80 kN, that is 2.4 kJ. Pure Ti (these are almost certainly alloy, though) has heat capacity of about 0.5 J / g, so if the thing weighs about 100 g, that would increase its temperature by about 50 °C.
@@Puukiuuki a big big reason for the high temperatures is the thermal conductivity of Ti, its pretty much the lowest of all metals, it allows the heat to accumulate very close to the fracture/deformation zone and doesn't give it any surface area to radiate/convect away.
The rings are almost definitely Titanium- 6 Aluminium- 4 Vanadium by the way. I would be shocked if they were anything else.
@@MrTheomossop The difference in thermal conductivity of steel and titanium is only a factor of 3, and since thermal capacity of steel is about double, and its density is more than double, the thermal diffusion "speed" should not be wildly different.
But just because the heat capacity is about double, same energy put into same mass of steel and titanium will cause titanium to heat about double the amount.
That and the large amount of stretch at high force (which generates more heat in the first place) should be mainly the reason for the markedly different temperatures.
Who else heard Mario at 5:43?
its good that people are doing their own tests this way like you guys do, since not every manufacturer is as transparent
Very cool video, I loved how it was puking excellent info out
For anyone who doesn't really know what a kiloNewton is, the last ring broke at around 300lb, or your average obese person. The strongest ring however would have likely held around 22,000 lb, which is about the weight of a semi (without the trailer)
Or about 100kg. (actually about 981 Newton)
A way for you guys with freedom units to visualise this is that a 1 litre coke bootle weigh almost exactly 1Kg.
1 Newton is the force it takes to make that coke bottle accelerate with 1m/s (a large step).
Earth gravity/acceleration is about 9.81m/s, thus that coke bottle does 9.81 Newton (or about times 10 if you going to calculate it in your head). So yhe about 100 coke bottles, but more importantly now you should have to tools to grasp your own force quite easy in your head if you know your weight in kg/coke bottles 😊
i don't do any climbing or repelling or anything of sort but this video was super useful information when comes to strength and metal rings i should use if i ever am in situation to do thous things or take family out to a local place i can look to insure my saftey and make sure resort or event i'm at has my safety in mine thanks guys for making this video!
I don't need or use and anchor ring and I have no idea why I'm watching this or how it got recommended for me, I will say this watching a machine snap different types of metals and the process was super awesome watching, I enjoyed this video. 😀
the way that titanium stretched was insane and just a testament to its strength
Thanks! Epic insight as an arborist
Really interesting metallurgy lessons to be learned here!
So at 7:50 I think what we are seeing is a non-penetrating weld on a tongue and grove style closing. The maker put a slit in one end of the rod, ground the other end into a wedge shape, then welded along the circumference. I believe you can clearly see the slit in the middle through the opening in the center of the welded lighter colored zone. I believe you can also see the remains of the wedge tip barely maintaining weld on the right hand top although the straightness of the leading edge has been badly warped as it was pulled out and apart. I'd like to know because metallurgy is fun and exciting.
full value video! i personally think it would be cool to put a rating of when it deforms too.
Love how you just faded out the rant at the end :D
“how’s my hair” MAJESTIC
very informative video. Most of my climing was underground. Have you guy`s ever tested climing rope? I have some BlueWater 2 that i just pulled of a spool that i have had in a box from the mid 80`s. Looks perfectly fine to me.
Welded 304ss breaks because weld seam is bending and it cracks it open from inside first. When weld seam is agains shackle the round shackle keeps the seam better in its original shape and is a lot stronger
That broken Ti one looks like it'll make a kickass bottle opener!
This just showed up on my feed and I know nothing about this or what’s going on. But im enjoying my self, I feel relaxed.
I am not sure if I am more impressed with the force required to break that titanium one or the deformation it survived before snapping. The chinesium ti was a surprise.
What the hell is this? You got me cheering for metal rings?!?!? My god TH-cam algorythms, you did it again!
The weld orientation does matter. In the first part you’re applying pure axial loading to the weld as the shackle keeps the weld orientation in place.
In the second orientation you’re applying axial and bending loading to the weld, the bending loading occurs due to the deformation of the ring changing the weld orientation, this causes the weld to shear easier.
Bobys hair is exceptionally stunning in this video
Looks a little like sketchy Andy’s big brother. And I totally agree handsome lad indeed 🍻
such a dope vid thanks guys
Yes is does matter on how you pulled the welds replay in slow motion the one with the weld in the middle it separates the weld on the bottom so it was like tearing a piece of paper from one side to the other
Great content did I miss the Dan Osman video you guys did. I saw the 5 minute one but was hoping to see the whole set up and jumps.
Still working on it. Filmed the narrative twice and threw it away both times. I want it to be good even if it takes longer to come out.
If I had to guess with the welding issue, when you were pulling on the weld, the force was on a small fraction of the weld, since the inside of the ring has the least surface area.
But when you were pulling against the weld, it was being pulled into a straight line, while the weld wanted to remain a wedge. The result is the inside edge of the ring was being pulled much further than the outside edge, which you can see around 6:50.
You can also see the 'tear' traveling up the weld, until it reaches around the half way mark, where it flies apart.
The end result is, the first weld only has to keep the two sides of the ring close, while the ring does the heavy lifting. The second weld has to help take up the strain of the heavy lifting directly.
The thing with welds is they act as concentrator of stress... When you load an oval shape, on a long shaft the stress is more or less the same all the way of the flat line. When its a ring angle of internal stress changes along the way (while on one direction its just pull on other it acts towards shear) meaning at round object the stress is not the same around the body. Weld (or area right next to weld) is in general weakest place of the object and different modes of stress can affect it significantly more due to stress concentration, than it would if there was no weld.
In addition when you load something from sides, the joint (in this case U bolts) are concentrating stress as well. So if you place weld under the U bolt it weakens that by a lot. (And you load weld across directly which is even worse.
TLTR: If you put U bolts on weld its gonna make it way worse, and with welds oval>round.
Additionaly i would suggest using ductile rings in this case as when you start to see deformation you can replace it with new one, while brittle will just suddenly snap (as seen in video) and youre screwed.
I just like watching people break stuff !
Pulling on the weld was the reason why it broke at 89kN. Pulling against the weld was why the other 2 broke around 50kN +/- . Of those 3 rings, the 2 50kN +/- rings that broke while being pulled against the weld showed deflection before folding inward at the weld. The 89kN ring showed no deflection and simply stretched until it pulled apart the weld.
That was my theory but I’d have to break a bunch more to really confirm it. It doesn’t really matter since it’s all strong but it sure is interesting
@@HowNOT2 No kidding. 50kN is gnarly good enough.
Is there another variation on the linelock that uses a rectangular ring with a saddle-shaped pin/blocker ?
Even if it's only rated for a hundred kilo (like the samples I used to have) it would be great for tying things down for the winter.
-Years ago- in the 90's; I got a sample of one-piece *nylon* line locks ("for shipping and storage") that held two ends of lashing/strapping while they were tensioned.
Each piece had pairs of integrated pins suspended by flexible hinges, shaped to nest *onto* a rectangular ring, instead *into*/through it. This avoided any leverage/collision concentrating force into deforming the ring while keeping the webbing flat.
Having seen your demonstration, I think I may have been the only one who completely ignorant of how line-locks _normally_ work, read the instructions instead of 'clipping off the sprues' in the test group.
(One in particular who ask me to show them how I'd fastened a set, got very angry and started shouting about how I'd done it 'dangerously wrong' and cut the hinges before becoming even more frustrated and hacking wildly at the 'incorrect' instruction-sheet when the demonstration loop didn't fail-apart under-load as he'd expected.)
When I tried to get more, the (intermediary) for the company that made them told me that because I was the only one who had _any_ measure of success that didn't work for the MFG; no more would be available.
as a person who has done tig welding, including screwing it up, I can confirm that in your case, it was NOT weld quality, but rather where you were pulling on it.
Love the leoni meadows camp coat.
Was wondering if we’d ever see Bobby again. Good to see him back in the vids.
Interesting is the elongation of the titanium which is helpful to spot any overload way before it will break.
Damn!!! I was instinctually covering my eyes for the Ti ring.
Great video!
Watching the titanium change colour before breaking was really interesting.
Thank you very much for the great video. Where can I purchase titanium rings and forged stainless steel rings. Thanks.
i dont even know what these are used for but its interesting so im just gonna subscribe
I'm not a climber, nor have I ever needed to rely on this sort of gea (just here because of the algorithm), but I do have a topical understanding of how not to die when hanging from stuff and that worn rolled ring absolutely flabbergasted me! Why on earth would anyone allow their gear to get to that point?!
5:42
IT MADE THE LIL MARIO THEME XD
Do you think that putting stress on them all at once is different then wear because the stress test makes it Heat up and wear cause micro fractures over time which makes it much more dangerous and hard to tell if it's safe. If it was stretched out then you would know for sure. I am just assuming and curious.
I don't know, I think 3,300 pounds is a lot. It's lower than the recommended minimum for climbing and I'd always buy something better. But I wouldn't worry too much that I was risking my life if I had to use one in some unusual circumstance.
Very educational! I'm surprised at how good the titanium is. Stretching before breaking is a very good thing. More energy absorbed. The solid aluminum rings are fine, but the brittle fracture is a little less confidence inspiring.
Great video, and I think it's pretty clear you know what you're talking about!
lol the fade out on slack line ramblings
as someone that used to build tensile testing equipment your machine gives me the heebie jeebies
You just had a new subscriber for the brown stains joke, congratulations
No PETZL Open Ring?
The P28 model that has a bolt to secure the gate.
These come on their Arborist harnesses and can be installed after a splice is completed.
Only ring I've seen that is made like this.
I'm always orienting the gates where no force is directly applied.
Even though their advertised as multi directional.
The welds would hold up differently depending on where you pull from. In the one test you were pulling the weld apart and on the other you were putting pressure directly against it.
Good show!
On your unmarked titanium the both broke on the side with the smaller shackle. The tighter radius is bending the ring more, higher stress. I wonder what your results would be if you used a soft shackle and had even loading across the surface of the ring
This makes me happy
Very cool!
1:19 Jokes on you bro. I'll go straight to the end. Scroll bar is there for a reason 💁♂️
at 7:00 your buddy explained it perfectly, the way you position the ring drastically changes the internal stresses on the weld, more force was being concentrated on the weld as the ring deforms on the second "lower strength" sample. The welds are more than likely the same strength. Welds should not vary that significantly!!
that titanium breaking was nuts
7:25 the placement of the weld will affect the strength. The amount of force on the pull zone vcs the middle zone is diferent.
Didn't realize that much heat was created during tensile strength tests. Super cool
Lbs would cool🤷🏻♂️ but loved the video!!🤙🏽
I think if you’re just starting to slackline, rolled aluminum is fine. as long as you’re not rigging long lines (less than 50 feet), but only if your metal gear is backed up. I always go around the tree with the tail of the webbing and tie a bowline on a bight to my line locking carabiner. That way even if the ring snapped, no metal would come flying at me. Good thing about rolled aluminum is that it’ll bend before breaking, so hopefully you’ll spot it
any videos on machined steel ? i made some parts out of p295gh on a waterjet ... and i am curious about how much they hold ...like a copy of petzl paw ... il am wondering how much thinner i can make it and stiil hold better than the forged aluminium one
Maybe you guys could do a video on the likelihood of a back clip resulting in unclipping. I know this isn't the typical stuff you guys do, but with the drop tower it's something you could do.
I genuinely have no idea how or why youtube recommends me so many climbing/repelling based videos lol
the experiments were super cool and I hope my nephews watch you guys for tips but damn youtube, showing the diagnosed extreme acrophobe isn't gonna make people much revenue in the long term XD
Anyone who can climb and talk about climbing as nonchalantly as you guys are like the bravest people from my P.O.V, I can't even stand on step stools without crying XD even with ropes and harnesses I damn near wet myself on a high ropes course in high school when forced onto one.
also yes very impressive the soft rope held.
Ryan do I see some of the non-rated steel / stainless I gave you on that wall? :) Can't wait to see you break all that stuff.
You're observation on the sharpie could be an issue if it has xylene in marker.
It is a known eater of titanium
At what force does your machine top out at?
with that setup, 90ish kN. You can hear it struggling in the video at that point. My new machine goes up to 150kn without struggling
It looks like the welded stainless broke early because the weld was "straightened" and kind of sheared it, causing it to split on the side and then break early. Pretty wild how well they do with no welds!
Exactly what's happening, welds are strong but brittle so straightening it out isn't doing it any good
4:03 watching the titanium get thinner and thinner on the right shackle is really cool!
That the weld broke on difernt stregth proabably has to do how you pulled on it. On the first one, you pulled it inwards, or together. That means it was not stretched a lot, and basically forced into itself while only a small outer part of it was stretched. On the second one you pulled it outwards, forcing it apart. Meaning, a lot of the weld was stretched and pulled apart. Which actually makes a huge difference on how much it can take. Because a weld can take much more compessive load than tensile load. It´s down to the weld disrupting the crytal structure and intruducing nucleation points for fractures. If you press on the weld, that won´t really do a lot of difference, but if you pull on it, it offers starting points for dractures to form and noticably weakens the material.
I need one of those Martins for my belt buckle
Just so y'all know on the steel 304 rings with welds.
Those broke the way they did because of weld normalization, and loading.
Likely the rings weren't heat treated properly to normalize them after being welded, which leaves weakened areas around the weld where the heat from being welded embrittles the metal. This creates a material situation where laterally loading the weld will cause it to fail very quickly, while axially loading it doesn't cause as much of an issue.
The difference being the in one the weld is being pulled against, in the other the weld is being pulled across it's length.
Because the steel (I believe) was not normalized you will see small steel fragments all around that area, they will be extremely hard, but brittle like glass.
Oerhaps try taking one of the 304 rings and leaving it in an oven or hot area that's above 500 degrees for 8 hours, then slowly letting it cool down (this allows the crystalkine structures of the steel to reform and become more even throughout the piece of metal. Thus getting rid of most internal strain induced fracture zones)
Is the moment on those shackles meeting D/d or are the rings point loaded?
The welded stainless failed at the welds because the temp wasn't controlled during cooling causing crystallization in the weld nor were they tempered to destress the weld, you can tell by the way the welds crack, pull apart and how they look after failing
where can you get a forged steel one @7:54 time frame and the one @3:44 time frame?
Good and interesting video.
Hey Ryan. Have you ever spliced a dyneema round sling to use in place of the spanset? I wonder if the lack of stretch would cut down on the violence after the test object breaks.
I think spansets and dyneema are roughly the same stretch.
@@HowNOT2 This can be tested with your load cell. Take your favorite spanset find the MBS (rated load x safety factor), make a similar MBS dyneema loop spliced, and load them with 2, 5, 10 Kn. You can measure the stretch while under tension and graph it according to force obtained (as hitting the exact loads is not neccesary).
There are a lot of factors that come into play so results might be very surprising.
That titanium ring has my go get and depend on.