Is Stax Good, Actually? | Commander Clash Podcast #39
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ส.ค. 2024
- We discuss Stax in Commander: defining it, talking about our favorite and least favorite cards, why people dislike it and whether that hate is justified.
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We're seeing once again the issue with the commander ruleset - the goal of constructed formats is to win the game. The goal of EDH is not as well defined, and people bring their own idea of what a game "should be" with them to the table. All the arguments for or against any particular playstyle will stand or fall based on those preconceptions.
from a full board, casting apocalypse -> hold priority -> teferi's protection is just as much of an 8 mana win the game as a craterhoof behemoth, and it even takes more cards to do it, so it could be considered "more casual" by many measures. stax isn't the problem, durdling stax is the problem.
Hate to be that guy, but craterhoof is not a wincon that takes less cards than what you described. Nobody wins by simply casting hoof. You have to have a board state which means you have spent more than 8 mana and or 2 cards.
@@gemkid85 i think you might have missed the first four words of my comment!
That doesn’t actually win the game though. That’s the problem.
@@jakeapplegate6642 if YOU want to play out the 8h slog after the stax player cleaned up the board and is rdy to strangle everyones attempt at rebuilding, thats not the stax players fault
@@jakeapplegate6642 a couple creatures can win from there most likely
For the amount of complaints I've been hearing about treasures recently Stony Silence is definitely playable right now.
Good against dockside. Same reason I'm running Viridian Revel.
I think Crim has a point about people getting salty about stax in part bc we have decided that stax is something to get salty about. The difference between stax and other forms of interaction is entirely arbitrary, if stax was more present people would get used to it and care about it less
its not at all arbitrary a counter works once without extra work. Naturalize works once without extra work. Any stax piece keeps working with no extra work since so many of them are permenants
@@donb7519 and you also got to tap your lands and do that game action. Stax means, you don't take game actions.
Crimson Vow was an okay limited environment. It's saving grace was, you took a million game actions. With the blood and other pieces. You took a lot of actions. Doesn't mean you did a lot, you just felt like you did
I think there is a difference in that Stax is a form of interaction that doesn't at all feel like an interaction. I would much rather have a direct piece of interaction like a counterspell that One-for-one's me than a passive effect that sits on the field and interacts with my whole hand like a wet blanket.
True, other forms of interaction are one and done. On the other hand unless it's a hard lock you can just play around it, or better yet use it to your advantage. Thalia effects become pointless if you ramp past it, orbs can set you up to win if removed at the right time so you get to untap when your opponents did not. Instead of getting salty because someone slowed you down, figure the puzzle out and solve it.
No. The problem with stax is the lack of actions and how it slows games down. Most of the time in a stax game you can break the stax player but it takes forever. Those players usually don’t win and their win conditions are usually long-winded when they do win; it’s a value chain or they have to dig for the combo and the enablers that make the effects asymmetrical. People hate stax because it just takes forever.
As wizards is printing more of the snowball cards or cards that are value engines themselves. stax is more needed and more diverse. what about punishing land ramp and drawing cards?
Confounding Conundrum is one of my favorite cards of the past several years. We need more effects like that
Human of culture right here 👍🏼
@@towelociraptor it's hilarious in Yarok. Draw 2 for 2, and if people try to double land, they gotta bounce two.
@@towelociraptor confounding is great!! Wanted to use more but my meta is green light, wierdly enought
@@towelociraptor to be honest, conundrum probably needed flash. Stax needs flash to become an effective answer.
Psychologically, people react more negatively to "No" than they do to "Stop."
Is there some study about this? Genuinely interested because I don't think that's human nature at all as far as I've observed it. If people have been allowed to do something for X amount of time they'll have a much harder time giving it up than if they had never started in the first place. I feel that if it were true then the discussions about the legality of tobacco and alcohol would look very different than they actually do today. It's also much harder to get a guy to leave on a night out if you let them in the door (by, say, accepting drinks) than if you'd just told them to leave in the first place.
@@siri7005 It'd likely be some counterargument to the persistence of cognitive dissonance, but my comment was in regards to the topic at hand.
By sitting down at the table, you've already begun the activity. It's just not till turn 2 that someone slaps down the no smoking sign.
The "no" in the situation I had in mind would be stax pieces. Never getting the chance to start, but having the start in hand.
The "stop" would be a counter spell, or what have you. A very specific instance, singling something out.
It's far too late for me right now, so I blame semantics for any confusion.
@@shinsua_ Fair enough. I thought you meant it as a general statement about human psychology.
Commander players don't like anything, they hate stax, overpowered cards, underpowered cards, ramp, control, tokens, combo, sinergies...
Stax is absolutely necessary, especially right now that the power creep is getting a bit out of hand.
Player 1: Hey F U!!! Stax sucks, why would you play
Also player 1: look at me draw 50 cards and take 1 hour turns... So fun
Sir I hope you have the greatest day ever for saying the things nobody else is brace enough to say 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Absolutely based comment
*Magic players don’t like anything.
Amen brother.
This! I think people just adopt what they hear without thinking about it critically. When I first started playing I used to auto-scoop and get very salty everytime someone plays a stax piece or land destruction. Then one day I just decided to stuck it out after an armageddon resolved and I actually came back and won that game! My mindset totally changed and since then I've had more fun playing magic and just stopped taking things so seriously and personal.
Someone needs to do the stats on how often artifacts and enchantments get blown up because all four of them act like it happens once a turn cycle
I've quite literally only played against one person that had a stax deck with "no wincon" (naturally drawing into approach of the Second Sun). I don't know where all these stax boogeymen are hiding.
There are some popular stereotypes I've never encountered, I recently found out there's a thing where all Grixis players are the worst people in MtG apparently, never encountered that in my life and have been playing Magic since a kid in the 90's.
@@Spaced92 As a Slave to Bolas myself, I can confirm we are horrible people who just want to see the world burn, but we want people to enjoy the flames.
I am that person, hello Michael, long time no see!
@@CiroHacePopo lmao hey there
I'm the Grixis player Space mentioned, AND the Stax boogeyman. I run a Cedh Kess deck, and a low tier Cedh Lavinia deck. It's just so fun blowing up everyone's lands, or creating a permanent lock out of thin air in the latter one. We get the rep because it isn't a "win", so much as a tablewide stalemate. But, I'm not scooping to my Armageddon.. You can though.
The trick to stax is to break parity, always has been.
Playing a Trinisphere in a deck with little to no cheap spells can drag the rest of the table down to your speed and keep counterspells away, or playing Winter Orb in a deck with plenty of tappers like Moonsnare Prototype.
The other great, golden rule is to play according to the table. The full orb suite is great at high power, but at lower powered games is better to stick to stuff no harsher than a Wildfire.
static orb, winter orb and storage matrix rock in Urza. Unless you're not playing Urza. :)
I think the issue people have is the playtime disparity. As they mentioned, a Jokulhaups when you have multiple plainswalkers is generally fine because the game is basically over and people can happily choose to scoop rather than play it out. Meanwhile, if your Derevi or Urza deck runs out a t1-2 winter orb, you can definitely synergise with it, but the outcome of the game isn't really determined yet and people get upset when they're shut down for 4-5 turns (same as if you took a few extra turns). It's mostly a perception problem.
Personally, against Curious Obsession decks the feeling of dread comes from the carddraw rather than the counterspells. The counterspells suck of course but only because you know that they are no longer 1 for 1's when they have that enchantment on their creature.
Yeah I play a sythis deck a lot and an important part of why it’s a very strong deck is because when I pop off I draw into protection spells
@@surfinggarchomp2820 Enchantress decks are the gold standard for sleepy value winning you the game. If I play a few spells I'm already fully reloaded. If you get through my protection and I get wiped, hand's been full the whole time, can just rebuild.
I like my stax pieces referred as "proactive removal"
This! I consistently describe my decks as proactive because I run Hate Bears and pieces that stop particular game actions that can hinder me while building my decks to work around them.
Examples:
Anytime I run Collector Ouphe I don't run mana rocks.
If I run Blood Moon or Back to Basics I don't run a lot of Nonbasic lands.
There are just so many delightful cards that can hinder certain strategies WHILE also allowing your opponents to continue functioning at least to some extent.
In fact, many of my favorite Hate cards are Viridian Revel, Verity Circle, Teferi Time Raveler, Ashes of the Abhorrent, Grand Abolisher, Conqueror's Flail, Blind Obedience, Shaper's Sanctuary, Ground Seal, Runic Armasaur, War's Toll, Shadowspear, Widespread Panic and Psychic Surgery.
That's everything I can think of off the top of my head that inhibit but don't completely shut down an opponent. They're all good because they don't necessarily say you can't do stuff but by applying consequences to your opponents actions that benefit you in some way.
@@Ixidora Price of Glory, Citadel of Pain
I understand its super mana intensive but one of my favorite interactions with Realm Razer is using it with Oblivion Sower to take everyone's lands after I exile them
Before watching:
Imo stax are Important, but they need more support for less final solutions like if you do Something lose life, sac creatures, i get beefy beater or something like that on top of the final solutions.
For us commander players it should be best to have more diversity :)
I find that people are less salty when the stax piece is in direct synergy with the deck. For instance: I've shut down blink players with the Torpor Orb in my Phage deck and they were pretty cool with it, but when I used an opposition agent on the landfall player in the same game they blew up at me.
I don't see why they would be mad at you for that they should be mad at the person playing landfall or the fact that there are too many searches in the game. Like honestly cards like opposition agent needs to happen because searching effects usually never are punished. Also i would like to ask for your deck tech for Phage as i always love ideas for unique commanders and i kinda accidently turned it into a cEDH deck that can have a turn 4 win whoops and i am serious about that. Like my intention was to make the deck playable not competitive and some decks like that it is too easy to break because alternative win con such as giving phage to everyone else so the ETB kills them and you are able to save her from exile because of Mirror of fate actually does that and there is a infinite combo with Elixir of immortality where you are playing cards from exile directly technically so set it up and you literally kill them all.
I also like cheating Phage into the grave so i can graveborn it out instead of paying commander tax such as Coffin Queen as discarding is not a uncommon thing in mono black for a cost to play a card. But Endless whispers after killing torpor orb is just too good of a thing as they block phage and lose or cause someone else to lose or they take the 1 damage and lose. Phage will get exiled when the player leaves the game no way around that so Mirror of fate which reads "Tap, Sacrifice Mirror of Fate: Choose up to seven face-up exiled cards you own. Exile all the cards from your library, then put the chosen cards on top of your library."
The combo is real simple since you can fill your grave really fast do so with creatures and such then play Elixer of immortality which reads "2, Tap: You gain 5 life. Shuffle Elixir of Immortality and your graveyard into their owner's library." but don't activate it till after you activate Mirror of Fate as you sacrifice the mirror to activate it so in a complex sequence with card searching stuff that you are getting back you can basically just take anything from exile and play it so you do not have to worry about the game state actually exiling your commander when you kill them with the ETB because of Endless whispers. It's a unique infinite combo that people don't really think of but does require a good bit of mana to do and is one of the only ways to get cards back from exile while also violating the off-limits zone known as exile.
To really break the playing from exile combo is setting up a infinite mana combo which is again easy to do. I told my friend this once and he said "I believe it, makes sense that black breaks the rules" really the mirror and elixir of immortality is a good infinite combo for any deck as you play your entire deck and they can't stop it unless they exile the Mirror but it is just most useful in a Phage, The Untouchable deck because again your commander is getting exiled due to a state based action assuming you do not kill it before the trigger resolves as the trigger goes onto the stack when it enters the battlefield meaning they have to stifle the trigger to not lose.
Here is the thing since Phage actually has to hit the grave for Endless Whispers to trigger so when the person dies Phage does not go back it is simply exiled since no one had control as it came from the grave. Unless i am misunderstanding the rules involving the commander then you might be able to put it back into your command zone and just enjoy the Mirror's infinite combo to play the whole deck anyways, like i know that if it were to somehow go to the grave, hand, or deck you can simply return it to the command zone as weird rules interactions.
Another thing you can do but it is a dick move is use Mindslaver take control of target players turn play their commander then Dissipate it but since you control their turn you can actually pick to leave it in exile instead of sending it back to the command zone again perfectly legal in the rules you are just a dick to do it lol
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena Turn 4 win is *not* cEDH. Its good in commander, yeah, but cEDH is very specific, and the capability to win, and even win early, isn't tied to what cEDH is
@@Dracomandriuthus Tell me what do you think cEDH is? you say it's very specific so you must have a example in mind. If you think it is 1v1's with a singleton deck with all of the power 9 allowed if they do not exceed over 10 points in your deck i am sorry that is not cEDH that is Canadian Highlander. cEDH is a 4 man game like regular EDH no bars hold meaning you are using the best versions of your decks that is allowed as in not on the ban list which also usually means proxying the cards but since you are using the best cards games tend to end around turn 4 or 5 unless you are playing Control or Stax then the games will take longer but one mistake means you just lose as control and especially Stax are some of the harder archetypes to play in cEDH.
Just because it is called Competitive EDH does not mean it has to be played in tournaments to count as cEDH and politicking is still in it as it is still EDH but to the highest level and while it may look different than in regular EDH play or even in high power EDH play it is still there. And rarely a deck pops off turn 1 or 0 as this is not actually Legacy/Vintage light and when this happens it is usually because of a problem card such as Flash that then becomes format warping. Since this is still EDH but at the highest level there are thousands upon thousands of decks and card combinations to pick from and build you don't have to use the old cards and fast mana that everyone uses as you stil have the card pool of the entirety of magic at your disposal and as long as it has a consistent threat to win by turn 4-5 or enough disruptions/interaction it is a cEDH deck as Stax/Control and Disruptions such as Nekusar, the Mindrazer as you can not sculp your hand with him out since it is a wheel deck meaning even in cEDH he is the first to go otherwise you might die before your deck pops off.
Now just because you can pop off turns 1-4 does not mean you will as there are 4 people at the table the other 3 has counter spells and if it is a control player they definitely do and will just counter the shit out of you if you just go in for a aggressive win while they would prefer to save their interaction for one of the other players that you probably just enabled by prematurely blowing your load. Deck building skills are one thing but you still have to be a good pilot and have good threat assessment otherwise you are never going to win otherwise congrats your win rate is 25% so are the other 3 player's unless one of y'all have drastically better understanding of your cards and every single line in your deck as no one game is the same in cEDH as it is a 100 card singleton after all and mulligans are a strategy taken into account depending on who you are facing and your seating position. If that is not cEDH then by all means tell me what you think is
@@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena I play Tasigur, Arcum, and Kydele Thrasios in cEDH. I'm looking into Osgir, Raffine stax, and Rocco stax. I do play cEDH, I know what cEDH is.
When I say that cEDH is very specific, I'm referring to a very small subset of the community thaat uses hihgly meta-tuned cards with wins coming as early (consistently) as turn 2. I'm talking about "Speed" being defined as turn 2 win conditions, and commanders that are built with purpose.
I'm not saying that Phage isn't a commander that can be used in cEDH, but I think that utilizing her is simply not going to get you the wins you would be looking for in cEDH. Even a phage stax list would run into problems due to overreliance on a single card to enable your commander, which would be better served by a commander that relies on a single card to *win the game*.
Competitive EDH is about playing the most powerful cards that can be played. Wins on X turn don't classify as cEDH, but consistency and ability to either interact or win by turn 2 is pretty much the standard in the format.
With the current format, the game is won or lost by the capability and ability to either win by t2 or prevent a win by t2. Stax decks are built with this explicitly in mind- Resolving T1/2 rule of law or sphere/thorn/thalia is critical to ensuring that aggressive turbo decks can't resolve their abilities. cEDH being a very specific subset of the format is also aboutt he meta decisions that the individual makes when they enter into the format. Speed of win or power of win doesn't necessarily make for a cEDH deck, because that deck may fare poorly into actual cEDH decks, and would be better classified as "high power".
Different usernames is due to different google accounts
@@manarager3413 No deck can win by turn 2 often even if the other 3 players don't have interaction. Dude that last paragraph is completely flawed as literally no one would classify those as high power those decks would always be classified as cEDH by everyone other than you. Phage is just a rouge commander like a outlier as one would say as literally it would be phage.deck and easily over power actual high power decks as you build the entire deck around her ability and the ability to get her out fast also let's not forget about there actually being counter spells in Black but the real challange is actually going through all of the cards and building the deck
Also isn't "Wins on X turn don't classify as cEDH, but consistency and ability to either interact or win by turn 2 is pretty much the standard in the format." contradictory as it sounds like that to me since you gave X a defined number
I also don't understand what you mean by this "I'm not saying that Phage isn't a commander that can be used in cEDH, but I think that utilizing her is simply not going to get you the wins you would be looking for in cEDH. Even a phage stax list would run into problems due to overreliance on a single card to enable your commander, which would be better served by a commander that relies on a single card to *win the game*." especially since you would think relying on a single card to enable your commander to win is the same as a card that relies on your commander to win
Though when you say this "When I say that cEDH is very specific, I'm referring to a very small subset of the community thaat uses hihgly meta-tuned cards with wins coming as early (consistently) as turn 2. I'm talking about "Speed" being defined as turn 2 win conditions, and commanders that are built with purpose." tell me what do you mean as 1) What is meta tuned cards for a format that has the entirety of magic's history at it's finger? and 2) what is commanders that are built with purpose? like what do you mean by that?
As even in casual EDH there is no meta you just rule 0, like do you mean the group you are just playing with a lot? There is literally no meta in cEDH the decks on the decklist database are just there as a guideline on what one could expect going into it not a concreate meta also the most powerful cards are deck and strategy dependent as you can use cards that are highly controversial and not normally thought of but they are the best choices for that strategy or deck but that is usually how Rogue decks are made and while sure not all of them are cEDH level some do reach that point. Don't get me wrong i am actually trying to understand your point of view but again no matter how consistent your deck is unless it is flash hulk you may be close to winning but your deck could never win on turn 2 or 3 consistently as it is a 99 card deck with 1 in the command zone sometimes two if using Partner commanders the amount of variance even in the top tier optimized competitive decks are high as you are never seeing the same hand and have to play off what you have or what you mulligan.
Though i think every deck should run Karn, the Great Creator no matter what as it is just too much of a auto include since you either burn up your opponents interaction and or you shut them down for a bit as he turns off all mana producing artifacts your opponents control. I could go more into how a Phage deck can be good in cEDH if you like but again it is a rogue deck not a traditional cEDH as there is really no other way to build one and if there is no one is really going to think about it but black does have a crap ton of Tutors and Card draw so getting the rest of the combo pieces is simple enough plus there are plenty of ways to cheat Phage out of the command zone without dying to your own commander and obviously they would want to counter cards that saves you from page like a Torpor Orb or a sudden Platinum angel which if they do not counter the recursion or hard cast then they have to find a way to deal with the angel as that is a high priority counter itself
Again i want to stress that since cEDH is put on the stupid scale of 1-10 they always see it as 9 and 10 being competitive with 8's being high power and only 10's being from turns 1-4. I also think there should be a completely different scale for cEDH decks rating them from a 1-10 as clearly some decks are better than others due to superior deck building and game knowledge yet they are all competitive and it would still be hard to rate Stax and Control
God I love this channel. I feel like every member has opened my eyes to new perspective of viewing the game, and the Twilight Imperium mention made me smile, too.
Such an important topic. I’m sick of the ideology that stopping your opponents from winning is somehow a bad thing. Board wipes, removal, and counter-spells are all kosher, but other disruptive pieces aren’t, both “stop your opponents from playing magic”. If no-one interacts with their opponents, you’re not playing magic, you’re playing solitaire. Stax pieces add nuance to the game, and force actual critical thinking when your deck’s gameplay is interrupted.
Stopping your opponents from winning isn’t a bad thing, stopping them from playing is. Most Stax I’ve seen just makes the game into literal Solitaire for the Stax player who gets to untap while the rest of us sit there
Win at any cost my opponents fun I'd not my goal
@@sabbysmith354 how many friends you got?
@@TransformersBoss I guess it’s just my experience that’s informed my opinion- my play group, and the meta of the game stores I like going to, have for as long as I can remember been dominated by linear ramp and value based strategies - so having more road bumps along the way to getting 20 lands in play, or 20 cards in hand would be very useful. I don’t mind losing to a stax player who is controlling the table, because I loose ten times more games to the tatyova player who never interacts the whole game, and creates an insurmountable advantage. If I lose because my opponent stymied my plans, i feel better than if I lose to something that didn’t involve me at all, and their win condition just happened to work out faster than mine.
@@TransformersBoss I agree that really aggressive stax pieces like Urza +winter orb can be unfun- but that’s a matter that choosing your power level should mitigate. People who have faster, more efficient decks should be prepared for stronger answers and effects to stop them from running away with the game, but at the casual power levels, the stax pieces present should match the ability of the other players to deal with them.
Regarding game length: This depends so much on the group.
If I'm sitting down with strangers at a game store or event, then yeah I'm looking for a fairly short game, also because there are more people to play additional games with.
On the other hand, if I'm going to a friend's house for a kitchen-table Commander game in the middle of a weekend day, then we're in it for the long haul. We're getting 6+ players in the game, we're bringing drinks and ordering food to eat during the game, we're adding planechase into the mix, and planning for games to last 5+ hours. In this situation, we're not there to try to win the game, we're there to enjoy the social company of our peers, and laugh at the ridiculousness of the game as it develops.
This is a big one. And I even warn my regular playgroup before I break out something like my incremental value blink deck that will guarantee long turns or one of my really high power combo decks that seek to end the game in 4 turns or less. If they're not feeling it they just say so and I pick one of my other 20 decks.
I feel so bad for every person that listened to the podcast instead of watching it on TH-cam and therefore missed Crim's face :D The barely hold in smile/laughter is hilarious
The Realm Razer discussion has inspired me to build creature based naya stax, thx guys!
I'm not that far in the episode yet, so I don't know what they'll say about Realm Razer, but that's the card that I thought of the moment I saw the episode title.
I have a Naya deck with Rienne, Angel of Rebirth as commander. It's not particularly powerful, but I have a pretty nasty synergy in there that I've pulled off exactly once in a game. All you need is Rienne, Realm Razer and a sac outlet (I have Ashnod's Altar and a few others in the deck).
You play Realm Razer and everyone's lands get exiled. Then on your last opponent's turn, you sac Realm Razer and get it back to your hand with Rienne.
Your lands untap, you play some Magic and before you pass, you cast Realm Razer again
@@siener you could just lightening bolt the razer before the first trigger resolves thus making the second one resolve since it left the field practically leaving in exile all the lands as the way the stack works exiling all lands is the last thing. Also ignore the fact that you can pretty much exile all the opponents creatures by doing something similar with Heartstone, Sliver Queen, Basal Sliver, and Constricting Sliver it's a really mean infinite combo because when you get rid of Constricting Sliver only the card that Sliver alone exiled returns all the others just stay exiled. Without Heartstone you are basically giving your opponents creatures permanent summoning sickness as when they come back in they have summon sickness so a good way to stop mana abilities. Sliver Queen is honestly the most broken Sliver Overlord is the second most broken as he is just a tutor in the command zone which allows you to get queen and augment your combo lines to get Root Sliver first so no one can counter your Slivers then a mana producing Sliver so you basically have ramp and a Blur Sliver so your Slivers have haste
Like when you put some thought into it you can turn a Sliver deck into a Stax deck really fast without actual Stax cards but more insulting when you do put Kismet into it which reads "Artifacts, Creatures, and Lands your opponents control comes into play tapped." Blind Obedience just makes creatures and artifacts your opponents control comes into play tapped. I mean why not as they are already going to target you for playing Slivers in the first place, however do not play stax cards that completely shut down the game in a Sliver deck no one is going to want to play against it just play the mild annoyances such as Kismet or Rhystic study or Manatithe and hell Diffusion Sliver is a good stax Sliver as they have to pay 2 more for spot removal otherwise the spell gets countered if they target a Sliver
Though if you want to be fun about the infinite combo that Heartstone, Constricting, Basal, and Queen does you can add Mindwipe Sliver to the mix as the previous 4 card combo does make infinite creatures as well as infinite exile triggers if i so wished however Mindwipe with those 4 provides a infinite hand discard so they have no hand so no answers and you could even replace it with Necrotic Sliver to destroy target permanent so getting rid of their lands as well. Pretty much allowing Queen to hit the field is always a game ender as it can go infinite with just about anything as there are over 5k infinite combos involving the Queen alone, hell you could actually Dormant Sliver into a infinite sliver combo to win with Labatory Maniac
Hell just play Unnatural Selection and just start taking other people's creatures including commander's with Overlord
I see them simply as necessary evils.
I have played in playgroups where no control is played and people just go off the walls and eventually just block each other indefinitely with huge boards.
And others where too much control is played and no one does anything.
Balance as Thanos and Oogway would say or whatever.
+
I agree 100p. the games my play group plays would end wat too fast without stax
My first playgroup everyone had tons of interaction. Games were about 2 hours and any time someone played a creature it needed hexproof or it would get removed. And it was cool because eventually someone would break through and cast a cool combo that required way too many cards and way too much mana to then win the game from hand.
Now the people I play with don't run any interaction so I have to put more creatures into my decks and 100% of my win the game combos go off every time. So I have to hold off from playing them.
Even if nobody played control, the only realistic ways that people just stare each other down with huge boards IS stax. Unless your playgroup are too afraid of attacking, at which point it's not a matter of what cards they're playing, it's the way they're playing. If you're playing in a pod with 4 players, 0 midrange and 0 aggro, sure. Nobody is attacking. Midrange decks primarily win through combat. Aggro primarily wins through combat.
I completely agree with Crim. Magic is great because there’s back and forth
yeah but when you're staxed there's neither
This is why I came here from YU-GI-OH. Stax haters have no idea about true pain.
@@Suavek69 Yes hence why you need to hold up interaction to prevent yourself from being staxed. Or manage your resources properly to remove the stax pieces. 3 against 1 also makes it easy to get rid of their stax pieces.
@@big13O ok, so since we both agree that magic is great when there's back and forth, and you just agreed with me that there's neither when stax pieces are in Play, then logically follows that magic IS NOT GREAT when stax pieces are in play. I'm happy we agree
I agree with Richard, there's no room for half measures in multiplayer stax. 1 on 1 your opponent's coming after you regardless so anything to slow them down helps you. In multiplayer you don't have to be the target, so if you do something that's going to make you target you better finish the job. If you go for the crown you better not miss because heavy is the head.
There are a few ways to mitigate this, probably the best one is stuff like peacekeeper or humility, cards that neuter big combat swings, the other way is by running board wipes and focusing your stax as noncreature (surprisingly doable if you plan around that in deckbuilding)
My God the ending of this comment is so cringe
@3:09 I think what Seth means here is "People want to see their deck do what it was designed to do" rather than "People want to play magic". Commander is the home of brewers. Getting hard staxed out of a game usually has a lot of counterplay. You can destroy the static or winter orb, you can counter it, you can just use combat to kill the player with it out. Games of magic still happen, the hard stax cards just usually force the game to revolve around them.
i would say most games where craterhoof is cast revolves around craterhoof
Relating to counterspells, the way you play them also makes a huge difference. I’ve got a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir deck that runs about 15-20 counterspells, and I’ll play it at fairly casual tables and people don’t have much of a problem with it. I think a big part of that is how I use the counterspells. I basically only counter immediately game-winning spells or stuff that completely shuts me (or sometimes someone else completely out of the game. I do my best to make sure that my counter-heavy control deck works to let everyone play the game, maintain a relative balance of power, and stops anyone from running away with the game
Its exactly these reasons why I am in progress of building my mono red stax deck. My playgroup has gotten a little too... powerful
Why is every stax/control player’s excuse “Everyone else was doing better”?
@@deifiedtitan you get play absurd amounts of control, go bigger than them, quicker than them, or make them slow down enough to keep up. Take your pick, if you're on a budget you're even more limited.
@@deifiedtitan My goal is to be the antagonist, and spice up our meta. Mono black yawgmoth doomday gigadestroyer wombo combo sac lock isnt that fun to play against either, do I have to have an "excuse" to build that? You gotta have some balance.
@@greysonmiller9407 you are the anti hero of the play group, you aren't the hero they want but they hero they need
@@deifiedtitan Heres my excuse: I hate watching the same 4-5 infinite combos be played at a table on turn 3-6 when i could play more than 3 lands and a single mana rock in a game of magic, I put 99 cards into my deck, id like to try to play more than 4 per game!
Every channel I’ve watched lately keeps saying you need to play graveyard hate. Which in some ways is a stax strategy so I think you have to put cards in your deck to answer certain strategies. I’ve played rule of law but it’s never a turn 3. It’s in up on the board and now limiting spells benefits me.
Hearing Tomer say he's had little negative reaction to Yasharn is kind of surprising. I've been at a few tables that hate seeing the card dropped normally, let alone as a commander.
in order to understand what stax is you need to know where it came from. the original stax deck and where the term comes from was built around smokestack. i find that stax is the most improperly used term in the game.
I think one of the major problems with a lot of stax cards in non competitive EDH is that not every deck can even HAVE answers to them. For every time a card like Stasis hits the battlefield and everyone needs to deal with it, there's another card that only hoses one deck and the rest of the players don't care. Like Crim points out - not every color can interact on the stack, red and black have very few answers to enchantments, black can't deal with artifacts for crap. That incentivizes playing commanders with more colors, or just grumbling when they happen.
I really liked hearing this debate, you guys have so much experience commander and y'all handle this in a really mature way. I go to small LGS with roughly 20 active players and most of the local meta is high power combo decks. I'm always left sitting on my phone while the combo player goes off on their 20 minute turn. it just ends up being super boring. I don't really know where i was going with this, i guess the point the point I wanted to make is that stax isn't the only archetype that leaves the rest of the pod doing nothing.
Tomer's statement of "I don't like it when the game requires thinking" says a lot about the conversation being had.
I think that the definition of Stax is important. "Stax" derives from Smokestacks, which is an artifact that adds counters and forces sacrifices of any type of permanent. I think it is useful to add definitions and think of things in a hierarchy. Smokestacks the actual card is oppressive because it hits _all_ permanents, including lands. Stasis is oppressive because it prevents untapping _all_ permanents, including lands. Winter orb and Static Orb hit lands. All of these prevent you from doing anything at the very most basic level, removing all hope. Hope is important for gameplay, as being in a hopeless game that you can't concede is miserable, which is why the Stax player winning soon is so important.
Think of Elesh Norn: It turns off all non-etb creatures with 2 toughness or less, versus Hushbringer, which only turns off etbs. The oppressiveness of a card is relative to how universal it is, whether or not it's a static permanent, and how hopeless it makes the game. Rest in peace is less oppressive because it only turns off a few strategies, not the entire game, and it is reasonable for a powerful deck with those strategies to be expected to deal with it, because they still have lands with which to cast spells.
I think it's also important to separate "Stax" from "Tax", stuff like Blind Obedience or Authority of the Consuls, delaying is a known quantity, and doesn't remove the hope of being able to play the game, it just adds another hurdle to interacting.
well said
that's not exactly the origin of Stax. Stax derives from "$T4KS", short of "the Four Thousand Dollar Solution". It's weird that we say stax in commander, in legacy everyone call those decks "Prison".
Agree 100% with Tomer's points about the removal vs counterspell debate. But I do not think it's psychological. Most creatures played in EDH are ETB creatures or synergistic pieces like... commanders. If they hit the board, they usually have an impact the moment they enter because they trigger something, can attack or be activated if they have an ability. That's the way decks are built nowadays, even precons.
Other permanents like artifacts and enchantments often have a synergy with other permanents on the battlefield or can be activated right away before priority is passed. Planeswalkers are obviously activable right away so counterspelling them if of course better. Long story short, having a permanent entering the battlefield means instant value a lot of the time, so counterspells are better than removal. Plus, they can hit instant and sorceries. The only drawback is that you have to keep your mana up, which is not a very hard thing to do in any blue deck, it's almost by design.
As to being salty about it. Well, you get used to blue's mighty power. It passes.
Balance land stax: Whenever an opponent puts their second land in to play each turn, you can put a basic from your deck into play tapped.
Funnily enough, deep gnome terramancer is this exact card
thats not stax tho
I use Storm Cauldron in my landfall/elves deck.
My problem with counterspells vs spot removal is the timing. If the blue mage holds up 4 mana, you can play into it knowing you'll get countered or you can do nothing and they still get to play their draw spell or their scry spell or whatever. No matter what you do the blue mage is executing their game plan and no matter what you do you're not, which feels terrible. And part of the reason that's so much worse than spot removal is that it tends to be cheaper. There is no 3 mana instant speed black spot removal that hits every card type. One could argue that's the tradeoff, that counterspells are cheaper and broader but have the timing restriction of doing nothing if you draw them after the permanent is on the board, but often there's enough counterspells that it functionally doesn't matter and the other player(s) have to play the whole game as though every decision is damned if they do, damned if they don't.
I agree with something Seth alluded to, in that I think there's a place for what I would call "light stax." I think there's a big difference between Winter Orb and Stasis on the one hand and something like Storage Matrix or Tanglewire on the other. The latter give you a choice: you're not going to get to do everything, but you will get to choose what you're going to do out of a range of options. It forces decisions. In that same vein: Hushbringer, Authority of the Consuls, Blind Obedience... You're going to get to do something, but not all the things right this second.
I'm not interested in watching others just solitaire. I worry about the fact that the format is getting so much faster, not just because of power creep, but because we refuse to act in ways to slow down the Chulanes and other (esp. Simic) value engines. Stax is some kind of answer to that.
Imo stax is a heavy form of control like its namesake. Something like Thalia isn't stax, but Braids, stasis and winter orb are.
I think they didn't talk about it enough tbh, there's an absolute spectrum of stax from winter orb all the way down to confounding conundrum, and they tended to counteract each argument on every light stax card with stuff like Armageddon, which imo is a completely different debate
Tomer's point about counter spells was spot on. While everyone else was dismissing peoples' aversion to counter spells as a psychological issue, Tomer laid out several valid mechanical issues with counter spells, and how they legitimately contrast with targeted removal.
I really like taxation cards. Cards that don’t stop someone from doing anything, but make them have to think twice before taking off too much. I feel like that’s the direction WOTC needs to go in to help balance these otherwise broken cards. It can really help to keep green or simic in check.
The best way to fix ramp is just to make all tutors only search the top 5-10 cards of a player's library. Once your Rampant Growth has a chance to miss, there's an actual downside, and you're more likely to play artifact ramp. And artifact ramp can be interacted with. It would also speed up games, since you wouldn't need to shuffle as much if you're not searching as much.
I don't mind that if it then looks for any lands instead of specific ones, like Cartographer's Survey. If it looks specifically for basics or Forest cards it becomes unplayable
that fixes absolutely nothing. it would just make new ramp cards unplayable
Tomer: it's expected to that you vandalblast the artifact player and take away all of his stuff, but we don't have that for lands...
Armageddon:.... I guess I'll leave.
Boom! Tomer nailed it at @9:00. The ability to have agency in a given game action is paramount to user experience. Losing the game is only mildly salty but you have an enormous amount of choices and possibilities before it happens. If your creature is destroyed, you’re usually not salty because you have the opportunity to interact with the destruction and the graveyard can still be interacted with. Having your stuff exiled is a little worse but you still have potential to interact initially. When you’re countered, you have a very narrow selection of cards you could possibly use to alter that gamestate. Even further is when someone makes you discard. There is almost nothing in the game that can prevent someone from T1 Thoughtseizing. That’s incredibly frustrating because you as a player have no agency in the game at that moment. It doesn’t help that it usually happens first before anything else. A good game designer will capitalize on opportune moments in the flow of the game to rob a player of their agency so it contrasts with the volume of decisions elsewhere. That’s also why thoughtseize sucks though. It happens too fast before anything can be contrasted in your brain to it.
Tl;dr agency is core to games and a lot of stuff in MtG robs you of said agency. That’s usually bad but can be good depending on how it’s presented to the player.
I'd rather play against Stax than a deck full of counter spells (I love Stax effects tho)
I think there is a lot of room for stax design in comander. I would love to see temporary stax designs with mechanics like fading or sagas. Tangle wire, espeth conquers death are good examples of this design space.
Tomer at 18:00 hit it on the head:
What you want out of the game should sculpt what you’re ok with playing against.
Want a combat focused game, with Voltron Commanders and big board states? You should expect a board wipe and creature removal every game.
You want to play Combo? You should expect stax and counterspells.
You want to play an engine/value style game? Expect artifact/enchantment wipes.
MTG inherently comes with counterplay to all strategies. Cards get banned when there aren’t sufficient answers to them. EDH being a “for fun” format throws a wrench into the natural eb and flow of the game as it was designed.
There is a difference between interaction, stack interaction and a full blown stax focused deck.
A Grand Arbiter deck that we have in our playgroup, builds a puzzle for the whole board that people did not necessarily signed up for. Like, sometimes I sign up for it, but frankly, one of the main reasons I play commander is to do something fun and explosive. I am 100% fine getting stopped, countered, wiped and then even killed first if I shown being a threat.
With a stax deck on the field, there is no threat for 2 hours. Nothing splashy can happen. Everything revolves around this dorky 2 drop or another enchantement and then it's just digging for removal constantly and that puzzle is just not very fun in a 4 player multiple hours game with 3 times the amount of variables than 1v1.
And in contrast, I absolutely love playing against control in 1v1, because the puzzle there is not tied to anything "casual" or "splashy", it's just that super efficient game we play and I try to skill you out and I enjoy it. And well, it is way way way shorter, too.
I’m a stax player. I don’t play combos. I hate playing a game that’s under 10 turns. I get no enjoyment. The only way I know how and like because i only play white and blue is to stax people out of a game. Asking to go to 10 turns in a game is not a big ask.
So am I supposed to be miserable then every game I play because I don’t want to play combos and want a slower game?
All my local LGS’s people play high powered combo decks. There will be a few casual fun stuff but now everything is just OP!! I don’t think Stax is the problem!! It’s power creep
@@stevendefeo8424 do you play that deck against all power levels?
@@stevendefeo8424 dude it sounds like you need to get better at deck building as equal powered decks would slow the game down a lot without it being stax. Like you should really just find people that want to play slow games and play with them, as why should the people that want to play fast games suffer just because you want to play slow games? Not everyone has the time or like to play slow games eventually they will get tired of the intentional slowing of the game they will start targeting you killing you first or stop playing with you because not being able to do anything is boring.
Like seriously a answer to your question is just find different people to play with that actually want to play slow games as everyone has different opinions on what is casual fun and a lot of people like comboing off
I'm all for removal and board wipes since board states do need to be answered if I'm trying to win. But are people experiencing much longer games? And is this a good thing? I just played a three hour game where 4 farewells were resolved lol.
That would really try my patience. I can’t deal with three hour games. I max out at around 90 minutes maybe two hours.
@@starmanda88 Fun Fact rarely a cEDH game can last for around 4 hours because two control decks popped off in the same pod both trying to win
I think the hate for stax comes from a lack of pre-game discussion. Two stories to illustrate my point:
A few years ago, I went to a local game store for the first time for their Commander night. Since I didn't know anyone, I signed up for the first group I saw. One dude had an almost Precon Mizzix, another Muldrotha, I was piloting a lower power Golgari deck. Then sat down a former judge, who went through his collection and brought out Zur the Enchanter. The judge got out Zur, Ciphered Hidden Strings on it, tutored for Stasis and Kismet, then told us he won. I had only time for one game that night, and so after that I never went back.
Recently, my friend Isacc (whose Volo deck was featured on FishBowl Friday once, #humblebrag) built themselves a Tameshi, Reality Sculptor stax deck. While they were building it, Isacc sat me down and had me pick out a bunch of cards from a pile that I hated. Like, cards I would just absolutely loathe sitting across from. Then, they put those cards in the Tameshi deck. Even though it's a stax deck through and through, I love playing against it. When our friend Noah came by for our small Commander nights, I pointed to Tameshi and asked if we wanted to play Archenemy, and that was a blast (I played a Mono-Blue Calliphe tempo deck, and can't remember what Noah played (I think it was Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim)). Even with two opponents, Isacc can hold their own with Tameshi. I only have positive memories of playing against Tameshi, and I believe it's because Isacc and I talk about when I'm in the mood to play against stax vs when I want a different challenge.
Sounds like if it's a persistent effect that causes opponent plans to be prevented in some way, it's a stax piece. But, there are degrees of stax pieces that players are medium to meh on, rather than full hate. So much so that they don't even consider several cards to be stax at all.
In my case, I like playing aggro decks. The only way to make it work in edh is by using hate bears as creatures I think.
Yeah indeed. Aggro is arguably the worst archetype in a format with three opponents that have 40 starting life total. A ton of cards are designed with 1v1 in mind to begin with.
I like hatebears. They slow the game down. Also let you played more cards.
You guys offer a safe space for discussion and I appreciate it. This is why you guys are loved. I wish I could support you guys more
I think the most relevant factor is autonomy. How many choices and actions does a player get to make before the removal occurs.
Board wipe? You probably had several turns to play with your board and therefore made lots of action and decisions.
Single Target Removal? You may have had one turn with your permenant but you still had the option to decide and then play it.
Counter spell? You still decided and executing the casting of the spell, even though it didn't resolve.
Tax effects? Your decision to cast a spell is becoming limited.
Hard lock? You no longer have the option to take game actions or influence the board.
The fewer decisions and game actions you have access to, the less fun/engaging the interaction.
Even adding stax pieces to a deck that has middling options for early-mid game board presence is seen as a disproportionate threat. I've played at tables where a Blind Obedience that successfully slows down one (1) mana rock has made me archenemy. Like creatures without haste entering tapped without a need for blockers has generated so much aggro that I've gotten beaten up when my presence was 2 low-level stax pieces and a mana rock despite other, more clear threats at the table.
Commander truly is a format where "I didn't get to do my favorite thing every turn :(" is enough to spur a discussion about how mean stax is.
Even in situations where soft lockdown pieces absolutely fold someone's deck on turn 2 or 3 they'd rather complain about how mean, like, Grafdigger's Cage is rather than cut a 7 drop for a crush contraband.
I think that stax has a bad rep because of decks solely dedicated to deny resources and, most of the times, with no wincons. Stax decks can be very disheartening but stax pieces are neede for the healt of the format. Dockside is busted, yes, but it's even more busted when you police Torpor Orb (and similar cards) out of the format.
Edit: on the matter of edh being co-op or pvp, I think that taking into consideration the enjoyment of the whole pod and being a casual format is miles away from being co-op.
Torpor Orb aside, Winter Orb is the perfect reason to play something like Dockside.
Edit: And if the issue is that Stax is oppressive, slows down games, etc. then the last thing it needs is ways to close. That incentivises actually playing those decks with no trade-off other than everyone’s time and patience.
@@deifiedtitan I agree. My point is that stax pieces are useful, but people tend to think that a single Manglehorn or a single Thalia is the same as a deck full of stax pieces and they hate you out of a game for playing them.
And also there's a distinction between stax pieces that slow you down a little (Thalias, Blind Obidience) and stax pieces that don't let you play or super slow you down (Winter Orb, Stasis). I have no problem with the former, the latter can burn in hell tho
Stax decks have win cons though. They play under their own stax and win through either their own combo or kill everyone through combat damage.
@@tonyngo1885 Sure, and simic piles of cards also have wincons because at some point Tatyova will be lethal. But just as Seth said, if your wincon is "no one is able to do anything and I'm hitting you with a tiny evasive creature" you're wasting my time. I mean, if that's what someone likes, go for it, but give me a fair warning before
@@nik700 It's still a valid wincon and there are plenty of examples of it. Whether you want to believe it or not is another thing. Heliod Ballista is a RoL stax that can win with either beat down by naturally increasing the power of your hate bears or winning with walking ballista combo finisher. Oswald can with through Knowledge Pool locks or loop Urza's Saga to make infinite constructs and beat face that way. Winota is the best example of a proactive and aggressive stax deck that can win purely through combat damage or Kiki-Jiki combos and can start threatening win as early as turn 3. There's a few more examples too that I won't list.
I tend to agree with Crim’s puzzle analogy - when I’m the one playing *against* stax. I’m fine with onboard hate pieces that I can see & try to plan around. It’s the situation Seth described where someone counters my spells left & right that makes me salty. If I know what I’m fighting, it’s fine, but if I’m constantly guessing whether my opponent has counterspells & whether they will be aimed at me, I get annoyed. This only applies to Commander; in 60-card formats, I just assume they have interaction, and I know exactly where they will aim it, so it’s not the same.
As to Richard’s argument that counters & removal are effectively the same, I find that the counterspells tend to feel like a knee-jerk reaction if they’re not aimed at a ridiculous engine piece or an actual game-winning play (and they often aren’t aimed at those things), which can make me feel like I’m being treated unfairly (not necessarily true, but that’s the feeling it engenders). If you counter my wincon, that’s fine; if you counter my random dork, not so fine. Removal, on the other hand, is almost never aimed at something that was just played, so the threat has been confirmed first & I usually can’t really argue with the decision.
I love how Seth got stax'd in the beginning out of this podcast :)
I'm curious as to how the phenomenon of the "entitled commander experience" became so ubiquitous. Also, it's interesting that while people don't give rule 0 much credit, content and conversations like this are performing the same function at a macro cultural scale.
There is a big difference between stax and stax locks. Like a stasis deck. In my opinion.
So, true.
Also makes me think of a 3rd type: taxing effects.
People are generally fine with most stac but not so much for taxing effects and definitely not the locks
To me, the difference between Stax and control is that control is timely and targeted. It's reacting to a situation. Stax creates the situation, it applies to every opponent, every spell, every creature. There's strategic play against control: when they look like they're holding up counter mana, play a couple mana rocks instead of the commander. Pick your fights and fight well. Stax doesn't allow that kind of counterplay.
no, we need more of it
I think a huge issue is that the idea of a ‘good’ game of EDH has changed. When I picked up EDH around Origins, folks were 100% fine with a 2-3 hour game. I still enjoy those games and want those but so many players find a 60 minute game long let alone a 90. It’s kinda sad.
I miss the inefficient wincons and the king of the hill style play knocking everyone back and forth. It seems players nowadays want to snowball and if they didn’t ‘win’ with it, it was bad. The idea of ‘popping off’ has shifted from doing cool/unique stuff to winning. It’s lamentable.
I sort of shifted from the topic but stax ‘slowing’ the game down is something players dislike. They want others to be knocked back but not themselves.
And if other people feel the same way, go play with those people. It's like anything else. Like if you miss classic Street Fighter 2, go play that with like minded people.
But opining about how everyone else has moved on to SF5 or other new games is just dumb.
As someone who prefers faster games, I LOVE stax. It's a great and interactive way to play the game. I just don't like games where nothing happens for hours on end.
I actually strongly dislike a lack knock-back or counterplay, it’s why I dislike combo as a general playstyle.
Stax is not knockback, it’s preventative. Stax is played specifically to stop people knocking back.
And if you want to play longer games that’s fine. In your 3 hour session if you want one game rather than 3 then good for you and your group. I personally prefer the variance of shorter games that let us mix up our decks between each. It’s not sad that I prefer this, it’s not sad when others prefer 5 hour games in all-out stax mirrors. It’s actually very good that we can all enjoy different things.
Just don’t play stax at my table and expect to stay on the board 😂
Finally someone else who gets it!!
Agree. It’s the nature of it now. Once EDH became Commander, an “official format” for wotc, it inevitably mutated into what we see now...at least in the mainstream.
Here, Local games vary from shop to shop, tbh. Some shops have cutthroat competitive pods, while others have decks that look like they haven’t changed since 2008. I enjoy the latter mostly.
I loved Seth's take. I don't want to play commander like a 1v1 format... But I'm also like Crim where if you know you have a weakness you must prepare for the worst.
Personally, I don’t mind soft stacks and tax effects that still allow players to play the game or for the stacks player to win quickly. It is painfully unfun to play against hard stacks pieces that prevent lands from untapping or prevent players from casting spells entirely if it makes the game drag on for hours.
Guys speculating about catch up ramp in white and i'm over here SCREAMING about my all time favorite card ever, Oath of Lieges. Play it. Its amazing.
I would be very cool with croposition agent if it was exactly as he said "the second land" so that way the people ramping just have to ramp twice in a turn to get their mana, but they still get punished. The other option is to get an upside yourself whenever they ramp, (like a land token, or treasures, something like that)
Love this discussion on one of my favorite decks to play against and to play in cedh. Unfortunately green is making stax irrelevant but thankfully if you go the group slug / colour hate route it does more against green.
Something that might be interesting is "whenever a player has a second land come in on each turn, each of their opponents searches for a basic and puts it into play"
Honestly, I always thought the discussion around stax was specifically around the ones Crim dislikes (winter orb, stasis, etc). It never even crossed my mind that cards like Dannith Magistrate and Rest in Peace were considered off limit stax
46:10 Yeah I have Stony Silence in my Sythis deck since my only artifact is Sol Ring and man it's great.
I just had an experience like this. Playing Derevi Stax, T1
was Island, Chrome Mox, Sphere of Resistance. My table didn't scoop why would they? Couple of turns later, Loxodon Gatekeeper. They still didn't scoop. It wasn't until I drew into Stasis and played it that it was the finish for the table. They all scooped and I won. It was a group of friends and I felt bad, but I let them know I was sorry. It's a deck I probably won't play with friends anymore, but I really like playing Stax.
15:00 Richard's point here is great. And should be the pre game we have.
Are we playing pvp, or co op?
As a person who loves green ramp, to build on Tomer's creature to slow down green ramp, how about every extra land that comes in after the 1st comes in tapped and stays tapped for 1 or 2 extra turns?
Either or. Would definitely slow it down. Seems kinda fair.
Some Salt but not full land destruction.
Ways to add more problems and more ways for people to find solutions like Amulet of vigor and back and forth etc etc.
Crim going "That card's sweet" right before Tomer reads off the part of Yasharn about searching for lands was very funny.
Stax is cool and good, but it's very easy to build a really bad stax deck that just makes everyone miserable, and then very easy to play even a good stax deck really badly.
Seth laughing at Tomer's pronunciation of Yorion was funny too (Seth always says YARRRion)
I think Richard hit the nail on the head. Not all stax is the same and the really problematic ones are the ones that prevent you from removing them. Mana-denial stax like Blood Moon, Stasis or Winter Orb are the worst offenders because you may have answers in your deck, but won't have the resources to fetch or cast them (and I'm assuming that any deck running it is probably also following up the first stax piece with more).
Stax idea for anti land ramp. 2 mana enchantment, for every land an opponent puts into play after first per turn they pay 1 or you get to search up a basic land to put into play tapped
My comments on this are:
A) Lantern Control/Krark Clan Ironworks combo had pieces banned in Modern in part due to it not being fun.
B) in 1v1 you know the meta and you have a sideboard to answer quirky hate/stax. In EDH you don’t “go to game 2”, and there are millions of possible threats and answers to deal with. Blood Moon for example is in so few decks most games it’s not worth building around, so when it hits the board, your lands are fucked. Only solution there is to tell people pre-game so they can fetch their basics, you’ll still hit them but the game isn’t dead.
C) stax is just so important to play to encourage everyone in your playgroup to go from 2 pieces of interaction to 10 pieces. This podcast assuming 10-15 is way higher than my experience. I’ve played entire months without seeing a single boardwipe for example. And interaction actually helps makes games better and strategy becomes less “all in”, which makes people enjoy the game more.
The problem with counterspell, is not only is it removal, it's universal removal in the same color that has the most efficient card draw. AND the only really way to interact with it is with another counterspell. To me it doesn't seem fair that one color gets a new universal removal spell every set, but red can't kill enchantments and white has very narrow card draw.
I don't have a problem with a few cards slowing my plan down or hindering me, I'm typically the long-game player at my table. What I think the problem is, and why counter spells can feel bad is, there is a difference between HITTING the board and NOT, and that's usually some kind of trigger or effect you get from it. If casting creatures draws you cards when they come into play, that's a difference of a whole card when it gets countered. That can make most counterspells a two or three for one mid to late game. I'm not saying 'don't play them' but there is a big difference.
Stax can feel like that too in a way, because sometimes that hindrance only hits 1 player, and there's nothing they can do about it. It feels bad in the moment, feels bad when you try to fix the deck so it doesn't happen again, feels bad when you don't get your solution the next time it happens...
I also think we need to clarify something, a few stax-y effects can be fine, but locking people out completely is no difference than taking extra turns. I can navigate a puzzle, but I'm not here to watch a showcase of your win conditions. It helps to know what you're getting into, and I think people just need to understand that they're not the only one at the table, especially if the stax stuff extends the game even when only 1 person can act.
Edit: I would call any card that offers no benefit to the user but hinders their opponents a 'stax' type of effect. Most cards you play are to have a 'good thing' happen to you, so you're closer to winning. Stax cards don't help you win, they just delay you losing, hopefully long enough for you to get there using something else. I think they're fine once people are established in the rules, but just 'not losing' isn't a win condition, and it quickly becomes a waste of time.
worth pointing out that yes, a casual edh deck will only have 3 pieces of stax removal, but there are 2 other players who are also playing, and edh encourages you to make deals.
Does it? i thought it encouraged you to be sneaky and just sanguine bond exquisite blood everyone to death. A lot of casuals don't actually play into the politicking part
For the topic of counterspell, unlike the average doomblade card, counterspell being able to target any card, makes it much bigger threat than a average creature removal. Counterspells also comes en masse, so your control is not limited the same as with a single beast within; while also being cheaper than a beast within.
On top of that it's power level hugely outmasses normal removal because it prevents effects that are passively active on the battlefield, ETB-effects and also leave the battlefield effects, even if just for a split second.
You play and adapt to those situations though, counterspells was a huge threat to me, and because of that I started playing Grand Abolisher. The blue player can now choose to exchange their two cost card with mine or abstain on my turn 😳
While listening this podcast I was ordering my Zur the Enchanter stax deck in cardkingdom. I am goimg to feed on your tears :)
The problem I've found with the tables I've played at with Stax is that Removal/Counters stop 1-2 things. Typically. Stax just happens to affect everything. It slows the game down and doesn't just stop the "thing". This idea that the whole table has to "suffer" now because you played Winter Orbs, Stasis, Ouphe, Aven Mindcensor, etc etc etc. I personally don't mind Stax (and any game plan) as long as there is a wincon or reason for it. Watching someone play a deck just to solitaire, armageddon, or STAX just to do it is my personal issue in Commander. Also, Boss Monster, Horde, or Archenemy Commander is a solid variant as well for people to try.
I play webcam EDH from time to time - pretty much strictly casual play for me. My only real experience with a stax player was a game where a green player ramped into a turn 3 wilderness reclamation / winter orb combo. He said with a straight face that he saw no reason why that wouldn't be considered low power. I asked around the table if anybody had any enchantment or artifact removal in hand. When the answer was 'no', I scooped immediately. Not going to waste an hour trying to play against someone like that.
I also liked Tomer's Idea of, what was it Called? "croposition agent". As someone who hates green like Crim does. Alternative would be a card that says:" if a player plays an additional land this turn, each other player gets to search for one or two basic lands and puts them on the battlefield tapped."
I have the feeling that stax is mostly problematic if you are not building you deck properly around your stax pieces. Winter Orb and Static Orb feel miserable, unless you have a lot of ways to tap them in your deck at instant speed. Once you do that just before your turn, you break the symmetrie, which leads to you getting way ahead on mana and most often winning the game because of that. Blood Moon in a mono red deck. Smokestack in a token deck (very similar to a grave pakt, especially against voltron imo). Armageddon when you are able to get ahead on board consistently. etc.
Also, every deck should have more than 3 answers to e.g. artifacts in their deck. And most strategies have access to interaction without craming 20 non-synergistic cards into your deck. Creature decks have pretty much every kind of interaction stapled on them as ETB effects. There are tons of modal spells that handle multiple kinds of situations and also add to your strategy. And artifacts are busted anyway.
esper sentinel: {W}
artifact creature - human soldier
3/3
At the beginning of your end step add X -1/-1 counters on -, where X is -'s power / 2 rounded up.
Thwart - Whenever an opponent casts their first noncreature spell each turn, each other opponent draws a card and you add a +1/+1 counter on - unless any player pays {X}, where X is -'s power. You draw cards equal to the number of cards drawn this way plus one.
---
"Once his peers drew, he paid his one" - preamble to "dowsing deeper: richard's reflections on group conditioning"
The thing I was hoping they would talk about is that you want to play the *right* stax piece for the game state. They mention a bunch of stax pieces that hit a specific strategy like Yasharn, Rest in Piece, Collector Ouphe. If you find a lot of your games have an archenemy or a player that pops off out of no where, and everyone recognizes that dynamic, playing a stax piece that slows down that player more than the rest of the table can be fine. You want one player to have to find removal for your stax piece, not the whole table. The trick is convincing everyone that your stax piece is hurting the right player the most.
It's a careful balance. You want people to participate and have fun so you can keep playing with them, especially if they're friends. But at the same time, you don't want to get completely shut out of the game. That happens sometimes. Maybe you don't draw your interaction or maybe an opponent had the nut draw. But a little bit of stax to slow the game down is fine and I don't see people get too salty about it.
1:19:45 I suggest a card that reads something akin to:
"(4)
Flash
If a land would enter the battlefield from anywhere other than a players hand, it enters that player's hand instead".
It still gets green players potential card advantage to always hit land drops, but it keeps their sorcery ramp down. It still let's them play more than 1 a turn, but only from their hand with effects like Azusa or Exploration.
The flash is there solely to absolutely bone someone going for a Scapeshift finish, and is probably not necessarily needed, but it's cathartic for me.
And I call it Salt the Fields
Only watching through it now but my 2 cents on stax is that not all stax are created equal, and a certain level of stax is important in a deck that does not have izzet colours but wants to perform decently at higher levels of edh, stuff like drannith magistrate, aven mindcensor, spirit of the labyrinth, collector ouphe, all of these are selesnyas way to interact with the board and stax and atleast a small amount is necessary for a coherent deck vs good archetypes
Edit: in regards to later in the video rip is absolutely a stax piece
As a person who loves Smokestack and Stasis, this conversation is very close to heart. In my experience all it comes down to is player expectations. There are tiers to power, tiers to stax, and tiers to casualness/competitiveness. What make "a game of magic" can mean a lot to different people but the notion that being stopped from what you are doing is "not playing" is not always true. Just talk to people and decided if it's appropriate. But also thr notion that you can't scoop because there are other players is simply untrue because as multiple people act scoop at once. When the table is locked, if you don't want to wait for their Mishra's Factory to win the game, or what ever just give up and start a new game. Also if its casual you don't need to play to the 1% out. Just move on. There is nothing on the line, you aren't proving anything. But if you want to then don't be upset that the game is going to take a while.
I am also a follower of the church of Smokestack. One of my favorite cards of all time, but people just want to be able to put whatever RNG-based god hand they drew onto the table as fast as possible. I played a game a couple months ago where I went 3rd. I drew a fairly slow hand, but I don't play very much turbo mana (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc.) because those can just as easily steal a game turn 1 as anything else can. My first opponent drops Sol Ring and Mana Crypt. 2nd player drops Sol Ring and a Signet. I drop Land Tax and pass. 4th player plays a tap land and passes. 1st and 2nd players both drop multiple artifacts. My 2nd turn, I drop Kataki, War's Wage and pass. Player 2 reads it and quits. Player 1 then gets mad and quits. ... Over a Kataki...while they have tons of mana to pay for it. Like you've got to be kidding me. It's some of the most ridiculous reactions I see people make are to cards like Kataki... Player 4 and I are sitting here waaaaaaaaaaaay behind, as neither of us has cast any fast mana, and we're just chilling.
@@boombox_up_to_11 Yeah its wild. I mean I have definitely scooped early because I decided to keep a greedy hand and got blown out early but there is no reason to be mad about it. A lot of people play decks that are very all or nothing kind of strategies, some of mine are like that, and then get mad everything they are nothing. It's the risk you take when you play that. So if you don't like that risk then don't play those decks. And again I get wanting to play a game where everyone is goldfishing in a race to the finish line, I get certain statehouse can get under your skin, so just talk about it and don't get mad unless it becomes intentional and even then just try and find something else to do.
On Drannith "sucking", I gotta say I often hold it til after a board wipe is dropped, or when a player is already out and it's coming down the stretch because like mentioned it draws hatred. Drop it early in a game and it won't make two turn cycles, probably just one and then someone else casts a fatty and the whole table groans..
I always enjoy learning whenever playing Commander - sometimes win, sometimes lose, against all types of deck builds. I suspect the way that some non-Stax players get frustrated with the effects of Stax pieces/play, Stax players get frustrated with slow (and/or steady) battlefield build-up for 10 - 15 turns, then essentially the same following 3 - 5 combat steps (different players/turns) ensue where the winner emerges. Combos, Control, Stax, Creature Builds, whatever, its all good. In addition, interaction should be expected. Whenever I lose, I don’t get upset, but instead, I try to understand why I lost.
Okay
6 mana creature, all lands phase out until it leaves the battlefield.
during each players untap step, that player creates 5 treasure tokens
I think stax is needed to keep certain decks in check but with stax decks you really gotta know your meta to know what stax pieces are the most effective. My Nath stax deck would get wrecked in a creature beats pod but would do well in a combo and control pod depending on their combo pieces. A lot of stax decks try to break parity with their stax pieces while still staxing their opponents. For instance, Urza Lord High Artificer and Winter Orb or Trinisphere.
Croposition Agent I'm SO behind!
I’m a casual player so when i see a turn 1 blood moon or other stax pieces i’ll just scoop if they’re gonna ruin a casual game like that i don’t want a part of it personally
Responding to the question of potential new stax pieces - What about a card that hates on Treasures specifically with how abundant they are these days? Either turn them off entirely or force people to sacrifice them at the end of their turn so they can't hoard them. We've really hit a critical mass over the last couple years of powerful treasure support and synergies and that doesn't seem to be slowing down since now all your *lands* can make treasures, I don't think it would be a bad thing to have some sort of treasure-specific hate.
Isn't any sufficiently repeatable removal a form of stax? Is me strip mining once a turn and casting the eldest reborn every other turn in Muldrotha Stax? Is "each player discards cards" stax?
Is my all discard and sacrifice deck stax, is it stax with or without tergrid as a commander? It probably takes longer to win without tergrid...
I play a lot of casual commander and I really enjoy resource denial strategies. I joined a high-powered play group so I could step above the salt (I still play numerous casual groups with decks that everyone enjoys) and I discovered that the whole "stax is only for cedh" thing is a myth. People get salty. They just do. If you play the card that pins someone for 3 turns until they draw their answer, they're very likely to get salty.
A bit of an old topic but I’ve formed a nuanced opinion on it. I think Stax even the harsh ones is completely acceptable because when you build a deck you take necessary risks. If you make the risk of not playing basics and get Blood Mooned it’s the same as if you are playing a graveyard deck and get RIP’d. Not running basics makes your deck better so a draw back deserves to exist. All of these are completely fine if you want to play them. If you are playing the same deck again and again in the same group it’s a bit rough but if you group still wants to play with you then it’s fine. I would recommend having a second deck though if this is your paper deck.