I wanted to leave a comment letting you guys know how much I appreciate you putting the card on screen every time one is mentioned. As a new player who doesn’t know most cards it really helps me keep track of the conversation!
I feel like we need to expand the grading: S+: Warps how you build every deck (bowmasters, Free counterspells, thoracle, etc.) S: good in any deck without building around A: good in most decks without building around B: good only in decks that build around C: playable in certain archetypes D: playable if you have deck restrictions (extreme budget, against the odds, restricted to a set, etc.)
We don't need S++ V-ultra Diamond tier, we just need Richard to ground himself and stop throwing it around all willy nilly. S: New format staple (Cyc rift, Dockside, Demonic Tutor, Teferi's Pro, Command tower, Sol RIng) A: Very good, but just shy of "format defining" (Chaos Warp, deep-gnome terramancer, Field of the dead) B: Very strong in the right deck (The great henge, storm-kiln artist, Sigarda's Aid) C: Pet cards just good enough to be considered playable D/F: Disappointing unplayable chaff
I think they just need to drop the 5/4 color expectation. Ur-Dragon and First Sliver don't need to play, for example, Mana drain, fierce Guardianship, force of negation, and force of will, but that doesn't make any of them not S anymore, there just isn't demand for that many of a particular card in every single deck. Otherwise we would all just play cEDH with only S tier cards
I love how everyone on commander clash who played with jake back in the day still has random decks PTSD but all the newer players are always like “random isn’t that bad!” Just hilarious how the real villains effects are still felt.
On Bloodsoaked Insight Seth is so right. If you play creatures, run this. You have three opponents. Five mana is the base line for this and "five mana draw three" or play a land is literal Loren Revealed and this fixes, is in less draw heavy colors, and can be cheaper. You don't need a theme. You just need creatures.
You guys should do an episode where you all a 1 color, a 2 color, 3, 4, and 5 color commander and you each build mana bases for those commanders to compare (and show supporting spells like Farseek if needed). Seeing the differences of how Tomer and Richard would build the mana bases the same commander would be really interesting!
@@JonReid01Not being the same person but having taken out fetches in all but my one Landfall decks, there are many reasons: They aren’t deck thinning. Taking out 2 lands out of your 99 card deck does not “thin” the deck at all. I play land tax and I keep drawing into lands after tutoring all of my 15 basics to my hand lol, the math is just not there for fetchlands. They are an expensive card that wants to find a dual (even more expensive) or a shock land (another expensive card). God forbid you already played these lands and you now paid a lot of money for a land that fetches you a basic or a tapped land. You might as well play any other land that fixes you for mana instead of trying so hard to bolt yourself for a shock land. Do you have graveyard synergies? Landfall synergies? Do you scry often and know you are going to draw a dud and the shuffling can help you? No? Then why did you buy fetch lands for your deck lol. Turns out all of my decks that don’t use fetch lands still win games and have no problem fixing for their colors. At this point there are so many lands that help you fix for mana that they are not necesary to make your deck work.
@@augustobs24 it's really a preference thing, i have several 2 color decks that are almost all basics and you'd never know there wasn't any mana fixing My current pet deck has 3 fetches and i added the new landscape and considering fabled passage because the deck cares about having a permanent leave the battlefield so it's like double duty. The fact that shock lands and triomes basically make it so any fetch is any color. It just makes getting a strong start a lot more likely. The deck also has like... 9 MDFC now because there's so many that finding ones that just fit the deck is easy and so many of them can be bolted in if needed. Ended up cutting the real lands down to 32 and it's running so smooth it feels like I'm getting away with something. Even the ones that initially seem absurdly overcosted like pinnacle monk and witch enchanter play so well, it seems crazy
I love the idea of MDFC lands. It solves so many problems casual players have with the game. No one likes mana screw/flood. MDFC lands allow you to minimize both while increasing player agency. We need more.
Richard - "Auras are scary" I can't put the green/white aura in my deck they could remove my creature. BUT "Glasswing Grace (an aura) is going in all my decks"
I like how they say they aren't hot on Hydroelectric Specimen because they don't run much single target removal right after saying they are going to run both Hagra Mauling and Fell the Profane.
The Goldfish crew's perception of mana bases is deeply warped by playing on MTGO for years. A lot of 3+ color paper decks won't be filled with optimal fetch-shock-triome setups because that's a real investment, particularly for a second/third/nth deck.
It’s called proxies, super easy to make and much cheaper than anything else, could literally build decks for $10 or less… there really is no excuse, and the argument that having the real card is invalid, unless ur playing in tournaments which nobody does anyway 🤡😭😂
@@jesperwinther518 I did not know the circus was in town! Let’s ask the clown a question: Please, do explain how paying for Hasbro-approved cardboard instead of making your own game pieces for much cheaper is less lame. I’ll wait. Try not to choke on the company’s boot too much tho, we want to be able to understand your answer.
@@augustobs24 dam', you took offense to my comment huh - hilarious. I'm fine with elaborating my comment, if you so desire. But I doubt you'll stick around to listen to it, based on your reaction. 😉 And at the end of the day, I seem to be in your echo-chamber too. So I doubt it would offer anyone anything, in regards to their personal opinions on the matter. But I am at the same time, not willing to rule it out. So, What do you say? or should I say... [translated to simpleton/throwing mud] Would you like the clown to 'dance' for the crowd. Or does your fear of defeat, make you continue to cower around spineless in the dark - Only to lash out with proper backup, but no 'grounding'. Edit: Based on your message (...) 'lame' is probably the nicest someone wrote to you today.
It seems like S having to include 5-C staples is too high of an expectation. With Pinnacle monk, i would never play in 5-c, but also, i would probably not play more than two counterspells depending on the archetype. Is the third best counter spell not S tier then? Just because its not going to go in every single deck doesn't mean it cannot go into every deck
I think Bala ged recovery is the only mdfc I'm playing in every 5 color deck. But there are also specific decks I wouldn't play it in, when you're trying to hit something specific on Cascade for example. So maybe seeing play in every deck in its colors is too high of a bar for "S" I'm with Tomer on most of these though. In a 5 color deck (budget and theme aside) you are playing the strongest options at each point on the curve, I agree that being able to cast everything on time every game is better than some extra flexibility out of the lands. That being said, I think some more budget 5c decks have more room for mdfcs. I think I'm building a budget 5c deck focused on green land ramp, nature's lore, three visits, farseek, into the north, skyshroud claim, ranger's path can all get you tapped duals (snow or dominaria). In this mana base I would find some room for mdfcs, esp the green ones.
I have to say I'm with Crim on Razorgrass Ambush/Eiganjo. It's not prime removal, but it does kill the random Oracle of Mul Daya or other small creature attacking for value. They don't necessarily attack into open mana because they could be attacking your opponents and you can even wait until after they dealt combat damage if it helps you. No, it isn't the greatest MDFC of all time, hell no, but it's not hot garbage either. It can be an untapped land if need be.
The start of the podcast Richard was Archdruid's Charm (GGG) uncastable. Disciple of Freyalise (3GGG) S tier and its going into his 5 color deck lol. Richard is hilarious and cementing himself into the comments!
Is Bloodsoaked Insight just amazing in a Rakdos deck? Hit with your big beater, pay two targeting the creature deck, he even gives you as discount casting their creatures off the top, right?
It is. The "problem" with MDFCs is that the effects are over-costed because they are modal spells. Bloodsoaked Insight is unique among MDFCs because in the context of a Rakdos deck it will often be under-costed -- way under-costed.
Im a huge fan of Legion’s leadership, even though I don’t play aggro, because it can target your opponent’s creatures! Like tainted strike, it can be a lethal buff when you use it correctly, or even removal if you buff something that’s blocking a creature you want to get rid of!
Tomer is completely correct about 5 Color decks not really needing Utility lands. In 5 Color you have Access to all of the best Ramp, all of the best Removal, all of the best Card Advantage spells, and all of the best Board Wipes.
@@guico33Don’t tell this to Richard, have him play cards that ask you for 3 pips of the same color in decks where your goal is to find 1 pip of every color ASAP. That or he bolts himself for a land that makes 1 color.
If this gets comment of the week, Richard must, in his best Peter Griffin impression, say: “Holy crap, I’m in fortnite! Oh my gosh, this is so epic. Holy crap, it’s Donald Trump!!” And in response, in his best Donald Trump impression, Crimbo must say “Hello, Peter. Welcome to Fortnite.” Edit: Insane that you nerds chose to top comment an episode proposal that will never happen over infinitely memable content. Nice one.
Richard: This 3 mana sorcery speed removal with incidental buff that can be an untapped land, but opens you up to a two for one is unplayable. Richard, Later: This 5 mana sorcery speed buff with incidental life gain that can be a tapped land, but opens you up to a two for one is incredible!
I think that they have different play styles and Tomer is mostly trying to make sure the audience knows that you don't have to cut all basics to have a strong deck. But really it's a play style choice that I think they use to crack jokes
Idk I think youre kind of strawmanning, he views the charm as a ramp spell you want to cast t3, which can be quite hard. The mdfc you need 6 mana for and if you cant cast it you play it as a land.
I think you are all seriously underestimating the strength of these cards in general. What makes them so great is that they have basically 0 opportunity cost. You would very likely replace a land with them. It just gives you flexibility for almost no price. The fact that the dual color lands enter tapped is a bit of opportunity cost but that doesn't matter if you play a budget mana base and you replace another tapped land with it, then it's basically just a straight upside. I think most if not all of these MDFCs will be staples.
"zero" opportunity cost is wrong, tho. It is a very low cost, yes, but not absent. You can't just run 30 mdfcs lands in a 3+ color deck without getting mana screwed some of the time... like yeah if youre running 25 basics then you can easily switch a basic for one of them, but in an age where we struggle to even fit 3 basics in a mana base, the opportunity cost of mdfcs is still very existent
@@TheSmartCinema Okay I would say it depends on the case. I am convinced, the mono color MDFCs have almost 0 opportunity cost, unless you are running a deck that has specific synergies with basic land types (like Cabal Coffers etc.). 3 life is almost nothing in a game of commander. The downside of replacing a basic with this is very low, the potential upside very high (although I agree that some of them are weaker than others) For the multi color ones, it depends on what you are cutting. If you are used to playing only perfect mana bases with maximum amount of fetches, shocks, original dual lands etc. then yeah, the opportunity cost calculation becomes a bit more complex. But in the casual commander circles that I have played in, that basically never happens. Basically every 2+ color deck I have played against in casual had some amount of tap lands in it. These MDFCs cleanly replace a tap land, it's basically only an upside.
@@TheSmartCinema I mean people run like 15 basics in their 3 colour decks so I'm not sure colour screw is a bad argument for these, particularly since they have a dual colour cycle
I loathe taplands, and that spot in a lot of my decks is taken up with Triomes. I can see some of these finding a home and I think at more casual tables they are going to come up a lot, but in more streamlined/tuned lists they will fall out of favour.
@@gerritbaronvonknutschzuvie8160 there's always an opportunity cost. If you run the mono color ones in more than 2 color, you are removing basic fetchability, or color fixing. If you run the dual color ones they always enter tapped and you should not be running more than a handful of tapped lands unless your meta is so slow that everyone is playing land and passing for the first 4-5 turns of the game. MDFCs are great and the opportunity cost can be low but we shouldn't disregard that you are either losing tempo or color fixing away from a more perfect mana base
I used to love Richard’s takes, but it just FEELS like his takes are wild for the sake of it - and less intelligent than they used to be! Sorry Richard 😂
Richard is usually right. The problem is that most people play in completely different types of commander metas with wildly different power levels and never take that into consideration.
I actually think that people are still playing the same Magic they always have, while Richard is a lot more familiar with game changes as he plays with his group often and whenever a new set comes out.
I'll be running Bojuka Bog AND Boggart Trawler in every deck that can play them. You can never have enough free grave hate and potentially obliterating a graveyard player's gameplan for that little opportunity cost is incredible.
Glasswing Grace has already proven itself in my Karlov of the Ghost Council deck, where it replaced a Plains as soon as I got back from opening it at my prerelease event. Early game I will be fine playing it as a fixing land, but later than that, it is so good there, where Karlov gets huge quickly and kills with commander damage.
Tomer: I dont wanna sac a creature to freyalise to gain life and draw cards; rates a mid fight spell higher Tomer right after: I really like this orzhov mdfc cuz its an aura that gains you life although its 5 cmc. That green draw mdfc is cracked and its basically a souls might with life gain on a land….how that is not S idk.
Soul's Might doesn't require you to sacrifice the creature. For most of my decks, a creature big enough to sacrifice is one I intend to pressure the table with. I generally don't want to spend 6 mana and give up my board presence to draw cards. Whereas giving my biggest creature +2/+2 flying and lifelink enhances my board presence, can immediately win the game, at the very least gain me life to get me out of danger while maintaining my board presence. We've seen countless examples of people tapping out to draw cards with little / no board presence and then immediately die. And yet at the same time people keep insisting that these types of plays have zero drawback.
@@MTGGoldfishCommander worst case scenario you do have 1 creature, and no other cards in hand; that’s already a losing position if anyone has more board presence or cards. Sacrificing even a 5/5 will draw you 5 cards and gain 5 life for 6 mana and is also a land early game. Now you have a fresh hand and a whole turn to get back into the game. Unless you have zero creatures above 3 power; its just an auto include. And let’s be honest, the power creep is too real to do anything to 3 players with one creature…..5 cards is way better than a 5/5 and 10 cards is worth sacrificing a 10/10. Green also has 2nd best graveyard recursion next to black.
Richard: “Ondu Inversion, Sea Gate restoration… they all go in 5 color decks” I want to have the Richard’s confidence to say consistently wrong opinions every episode lmaooo
Guys I don't get how Boggart Trawler is not S tier card. Its literally the same/better than Bojuka Bog since its untapped. 3 mana is nothing if you need to exile a graveyard. Both cards are staples in all my decks with black.
Yeah they are incredibly wrong about Boggart Trawler. The issue with Grave hate is the opportunity cost of running it and the potential of not facing a deck that uses it's grave much. The fact that Boggart Trawler is usually an untapped land means those downsides are completely eliminated. The card is better than Bojuka Bog and probably one of the easiest auto-includes in any black deck for me.
Glasswing Grace (Orzhov lifegain) also gives Flying. Evasion on your attacks matter commanders is huge on those boards where there's annoying blocks otherwise. Totally jamming this card in those decks!
Love how Tomer literally says "You can't live in fear..." but refuses to change his opinion on basics / nonbasics. Homie's living in the early 2000s still
The problem with Boggart and Bog is that they are sorcery speed and easy for graveyard wincons to play around; and black has powerful Instant speed graveyard interaction to play instead. They are fine because they have a low opportunity cost but a low opportunity cost is still a cost in decks like mono-black where they don't feed Coffers or 3+ color which tend to be color intense.
The goblin bojuka bog has been an extremely good include in Dr. Wu, and in ZnD. The aristocrats theme is key to making it work, however both of those decks also run Bojuka bog because it’s really good.
I'm so excited!!! I love mdfc and have seen the mdfc tier list 3 times. I love these polarizing opinions, can't wait to see how people have adjusted their opinions over time.
I think Legion Leadership is more useful than you all think. It's instant speed, so it could be used defensively, too. Doubling your power and getting first strike to block and kill a creature you otherwise had no hope of stopping while keeping yours completely unscathed is great. Especially for 2 mana with only 1 mana being red OR white so it could fit in mono red or mono white if you wanted to.
@@AfroAtze, correct. I suspect the OP is not aware that hybrid mana works differently in commander than in other formats, due to the color identity rule. In commander, a card with hybrid mana can only be run in decks whose commander has all of that card’s hybrid colors in its color identity.
Tomer, I have a 5 color deck that is entirely double sided, so every land in my deck other than 10 pathways and 1 meld land is an MDFC, I have all of them (prior to MH3) in the deck. The deck cannot ramp or color fix, because there are no basics or land types, no dual lands, and there is one mana rock (Mightstone and Weakstone). I haven't upgraded the deck with the new MDFCs yet, so I have basically every bad MDFC, zero dual lands, and almost all tapped lands - even with these restrictions, I am still able to cast Sea Gate Restoration in most games. Based on my experience with this deck, I think you may be overstating the difficulty of colour fixing in 5 color, especially casting some of these more pip intensive spells in the late game.
Poor Richard. People ever mention the negative aspects. But you were right on many points. Bounce lands, Skullwinder, Dowsing Dagger and many more. The only thing that doesn't work at all are the mismatched lands😜
I built a deck solely around mdfc's and 3 mountains with Goblin Charbelcher. Nothing but tutors, recursion and putting things on the bottom. Put your mountain on the bottom and kill everyone. Try it!
In Gitrog the Ravenous Ride, Bridgeworks Battle and Disciple of Freyalise are easily auto includes. With Gitrog you can summon something huge like Ghalta, or Daemogoth use the fight spell to remove something that threatens Gitrog, so you can saddle it and draw cards and play lands. Freyalise does the thing Gitrog wants to do anyway minus playing the lands but in return you get huge amounts of life.
In any deck that's 2 or more colors the channel lands always take prio, but say all your 4-5 color decks run thorical you might as well fill them with MDFCs. If they don't then leave at least one or two slots for a basics in every color. Which means max 4 to 6 basic lands with no etali in the pod. 5-10 if you regularly play with blood moon/blue moon users.
Commander Clash: Come for the Crim, stay for the Tomer. I've always loved Crim's classic blue player smarminess, while Tomer's sincerity started off cringe to me... I still love Crim being that guy, but I find Tomer a really sweet and genuine person and I hope he gets everything he wants in the world. This one's for him: Clash On!
I do not understand Pinnacle Monk at S. it’s a bad creature for 3RR and you get an instant or sorcery back at Sorcery speed. It’s nice that it is MDFC for a tapped (or lose 3 life) land if you really need it, but I never even see people play a spell like Regrowth anymore and that’s 1G for ANY card from your graveyard. Edit: I guess you can copy it, but I feel like once you have copying reliably going in red, there are wincon setups over just getting instant or sorceries back to hand.
Pinnacle monk is awesome in mono r because it’s a second blasphemous act or a Jeska’s will mana geyser or whatever. Not the best mdfc but easy include in red or gruul bc the opportunity cost is nothing
@30:37 didn't tomer say he plays the green fight spell in any green deck because it's removal. But you need a creature big enough to fight. But just destroy creature isn't in any deck with black? How?
Disciple is S tier and 100% green Sea Gate Restoration. Watch me draw 20 card because I sacc'd my massive big boi Im going to get back with Evolution Witness anyways
You all should do a future podcast where everyone builds a manabase for the same commander, then compare and discuss the choices made
How do we make this top comment let’s put these debates to rest
would have to have the same nonland cards as well
@@colecarmichael5724 Because we need another top comment dragging a strawman of Richard.
@@colecarmichael5724 anything to knock off the stupid 400 likes for "hahaha richard has a bad take" comments of the week.
This is such a good idea.
I wanted to leave a comment letting you guys know how much I appreciate you putting the card on screen every time one is mentioned. As a new player who doesn’t know most cards it really helps me keep track of the conversation!
Every set, Seth and his MDFCs stray further from the light of Blood Moon.
Just gotta play the red ones, lol
Blood moon believers stay strong
Maybe it's time we all get... (quickly puts on sunglasses to the cheesiest music you can imagine) Back to Basics!
It will bring him to Ruin... ation.
And now Blue has Harbinger of the Seas. Basic Lands got buffed in this set hard 😂
"Wouldn't you play this in a Phil Deck?" has become one of Seth's favorite arguments.
I think it’s a good argument, but like, not for the reasons he thinks it is. I would make that sort of comment ironically
I feel like we need to expand the grading:
S+: Warps how you build every deck (bowmasters, Free counterspells, thoracle, etc.)
S: good in any deck without building around
A: good in most decks without building around
B: good only in decks that build around
C: playable in certain archetypes
D: playable if you have deck restrictions (extreme budget, against the odds, restricted to a set, etc.)
This is just what I was thinking, and how I wanted the ranking to be. Nice!
We don't need S++ V-ultra Diamond tier, we just need Richard to ground himself and stop throwing it around all willy nilly.
S: New format staple (Cyc rift, Dockside, Demonic Tutor, Teferi's Pro, Command tower, Sol RIng)
A: Very good, but just shy of "format defining" (Chaos Warp, deep-gnome terramancer, Field of the dead)
B: Very strong in the right deck (The great henge, storm-kiln artist, Sigarda's Aid)
C: Pet cards just good enough to be considered playable
D/F: Disappointing unplayable chaff
I think they just need to drop the 5/4 color expectation. Ur-Dragon and First Sliver don't need to play, for example, Mana drain, fierce Guardianship, force of negation, and force of will, but that doesn't make any of them not S anymore, there just isn't demand for that many of a particular card in every single deck. Otherwise we would all just play cEDH with only S tier cards
Like they follow their own grading scale in the first place :P
They should tier list the arts so we can find out which of these mountains is the prettiest under blood moon.
You mean these Merfolk islands, right?
I fucking died when Crim compared sorcery speed fight to turn based RPGs 🤣🤣🤣
Every time I think I’m doing something wrong, I tune into the Goldfish podcasts so Richard can lift me up haha
Crim is wrong.
I don't know about what, but I feel kind of bad that he lost his villain spot to Richard so I'm throwing him a bone.
Crim is the best heel in Magic.
Seth's smile at 0:54 is so wholesome wow
I love how everyone on commander clash who played with jake back in the day still has random decks PTSD but all the newer players are always like “random isn’t that bad!” Just hilarious how the real villains effects are still felt.
Love the banter. Feels like watching the 4 extreme sides of the average commander player going at it.
“You might as well just cast Kodama’s Reach!” (Rather than Archdruid’s Charm)
Richard you are just digging a deeper hole with that take.
If you're playing a deck that can't easily cast Archdruids, then he is correct!
That’s what he does 😂
@@Kryptnyt I would rather cast a turn 8 Archdruids charm than a turn 3 Kodama’s reach
@@zacharyenglish2904 I don't jam either in every deck, but I think they both have good homes
Richard bounces back and forth with so many points. One week it's mana cost and the next it doesn't matter. He is two people in one 😅
He's whatever the content needs
He has feelings about cards and will boldly declare any take that aligns with those opinions. Regardless of what he’s said in regards to another card
He's more of a devils advocate but for content. He ain't afraid of getting roasted for the sake of making the podcast interesting.
On Bloodsoaked Insight Seth is so right. If you play creatures, run this. You have three opponents. Five mana is the base line for this and "five mana draw three" or play a land is literal Loren Revealed and this fixes, is in less draw heavy colors, and can be cheaper. You don't need a theme. You just need creatures.
You guys should do an episode where you all a 1 color, a 2 color, 3, 4, and 5 color commander and you each build mana bases for those commanders to compare (and show supporting spells like Farseek if needed). Seeing the differences of how Tomer and Richard would build the mana bases the same commander would be really interesting!
Swapping all of your lands with MDFC's is the 2024 version of deck thinning
I doubt most commander players play very many mdfcs even after mh3
Already took out 1-2 fetches per deck, excluding my one cEDH deck.
@@SifSehwanwhat made you do that?
@@JonReid01Not being the same person but having taken out fetches in all but my one Landfall decks, there are many reasons:
They aren’t deck thinning. Taking out 2 lands out of your 99 card deck does not “thin” the deck at all. I play land tax and I keep drawing into lands after tutoring all of my 15 basics to my hand lol, the math is just not there for fetchlands.
They are an expensive card that wants to find a dual (even more expensive) or a shock land (another expensive card). God forbid you already played these lands and you now paid a lot of money for a land that fetches you a basic or a tapped land. You might as well play any other land that fixes you for mana instead of trying so hard to bolt yourself for a shock land.
Do you have graveyard synergies? Landfall synergies? Do you scry often and know you are going to draw a dud and the shuffling can help you? No? Then why did you buy fetch lands for your deck lol.
Turns out all of my decks that don’t use fetch lands still win games and have no problem fixing for their colors. At this point there are so many lands that help you fix for mana that they are not necesary to make your deck work.
@@augustobs24 it's really a preference thing, i have several 2 color decks that are almost all basics and you'd never know there wasn't any mana fixing
My current pet deck has 3 fetches and i added the new landscape and considering fabled passage because the deck cares about having a permanent leave the battlefield so it's like double duty. The fact that shock lands and triomes basically make it so any fetch is any color. It just makes getting a strong start a lot more likely.
The deck also has like... 9 MDFC now because there's so many that finding ones that just fit the deck is easy and so many of them can be bolted in if needed. Ended up cutting the real lands down to 32 and it's running so smooth it feels like I'm getting away with something.
Even the ones that initially seem absurdly overcosted like pinnacle monk and witch enchanter play so well, it seems crazy
Remember that Strength of the Harvest is minimum +2/+2 because it counts itself and the creature it's enchanting.
I love the idea of MDFC lands. It solves so many problems casual players have with the game. No one likes mana screw/flood. MDFC lands allow you to minimize both while increasing player agency. We need more.
commander players need to play more nonbasic land hate
Just wanted to thank you guys for the timestamps, it makes watching the videos so much easier throughout the day!!! Lovely addition.
If we've learned anything, it's don't put cards in your deck, as one of your opponents will always have the perfect answer to it.
Only play bad cards that you opponent won't want to waste an answer on - Richard, probably
Richard - "Auras are scary" I can't put the green/white aura in my deck they could remove my creature. BUT "Glasswing Grace (an aura) is going in all my decks"
In Richard's defense, he did specifically say he would put the Glasswing Grace on a larger creature, and was worried about a 1/1 being sniped.
I like how they say they aren't hot on Hydroelectric Specimen because they don't run much single target removal right after saying they are going to run both Hagra Mauling and Fell the Profane.
The Goldfish crew's perception of mana bases is deeply warped by playing on MTGO for years. A lot of 3+ color paper decks won't be filled with optimal fetch-shock-triome setups because that's a real investment, particularly for a second/third/nth deck.
It’s called proxies, super easy to make and much cheaper than anything else, could literally build decks for $10 or less… there really is no excuse, and the argument that having the real card is invalid, unless ur playing in tournaments which nobody does anyway 🤡😭😂
Printer go Brrr and you have the landbase that you want
... I just can't take proxy-players serious. 🤣
Lame takes by lame players.
@@jesperwinther518 I did not know the circus was in town! Let’s ask the clown a question:
Please, do explain how paying for Hasbro-approved cardboard instead of making your own game pieces for much cheaper is less lame. I’ll wait.
Try not to choke on the company’s boot too much tho, we want to be able to understand your answer.
@@augustobs24 dam', you took offense to my comment huh - hilarious.
I'm fine with elaborating my comment, if you so desire. But I doubt you'll stick around to listen to it, based on your reaction. 😉
And at the end of the day, I seem to be in your echo-chamber too.
So I doubt it would offer anyone anything, in regards to their personal opinions on the matter.
But I am at the same time, not willing to rule it out.
So,
What do you say? or should I say...
[translated to simpleton/throwing mud]
Would you like the clown to 'dance' for the crowd. Or does your fear of defeat, make you continue to cower around spineless in the dark - Only to lash out with proper backup, but no 'grounding'.
Edit:
Based on your message (...) 'lame' is probably the nicest someone wrote to you today.
"Can I build a 5c deck with all MDFCs?" Richard, you have! You played a Kennerith charbelcher deck with no lands all MDFCS
It seems like S having to include 5-C staples is too high of an expectation. With Pinnacle monk, i would never play in 5-c, but also, i would probably not play more than two counterspells depending on the archetype. Is the third best counter spell not S tier then? Just because its not going to go in every single deck doesn't mean it cannot go into every deck
I think Bala ged recovery is the only mdfc I'm playing in every 5 color deck. But there are also specific decks I wouldn't play it in, when you're trying to hit something specific on Cascade for example. So maybe seeing play in every deck in its colors is too high of a bar for "S"
I'm with Tomer on most of these though. In a 5 color deck (budget and theme aside) you are playing the strongest options at each point on the curve, I agree that being able to cast everything on time every game is better than some extra flexibility out of the lands.
That being said, I think some more budget 5c decks have more room for mdfcs. I think I'm building a budget 5c deck focused on green land ramp, nature's lore, three visits, farseek, into the north, skyshroud claim, ranger's path can all get you tapped duals (snow or dominaria). In this mana base I would find some room for mdfcs, esp the green ones.
Richard- "You can't play any cards anymore because someone could play a spell in response. Right?!?"
Right?!
Right?!
Like fishing to get mentioned 🎣
Richard: Turned based action is dead!
Also Richard: baldurs gate 3 is bussin bussin frfr
In the context of Final Fantasy, he is sadly correct 😔.
1:01:35
Richard on strenght of the harvest " you can't put this in a bird deck "
Me crying with my enchantment bird tokens from born of the gods...
Man is a coward for not liking auras 😤
With how many lands y'all are running now we need to revisit the Temple of the False God discussion
I love that Seth said you can blink Drowner of Truth. It's unfortunate that it's a cast trigger that needs colorless mana to make the spawn.
I think he was saying that you can play it as a land, then blink the land to have it come back as a big creature.
@@memeticproperties4517 Yeah, that's what I meant. Play it as a land and then turn it into a big creature by blinking the land.
Does it still count as a tier list if you didn't put them in a tiered list?
It's like Richard has no average takes. He either says something profound or something truly incomprehensible.
I have to say I'm with Crim on Razorgrass Ambush/Eiganjo. It's not prime removal, but it does kill the random Oracle of Mul Daya or other small creature attacking for value. They don't necessarily attack into open mana because they could be attacking your opponents and you can even wait until after they dealt combat damage if it helps you. No, it isn't the greatest MDFC of all time, hell no, but it's not hot garbage either. It can be an untapped land if need be.
*Insert any land name here* "It doesnt work in 5 color" - Tomer
The start of the podcast Richard was Archdruid's Charm (GGG) uncastable. Disciple of Freyalise (3GGG) S tier and its going into his 5 color deck lol. Richard is hilarious and cementing himself into the comments!
“You can’t live in fear, Richard” says Tomer who is simultaneously TERRIFIED of missing colors in a 5c opening hand 😂
Is Bloodsoaked Insight just amazing in a Rakdos deck? Hit with your big beater, pay two targeting the creature deck, he even gives you as discount casting their creatures off the top, right?
It is. The "problem" with MDFCs is that the effects are over-costed because they are modal spells. Bloodsoaked Insight is unique among MDFCs because in the context of a Rakdos deck it will often be under-costed -- way under-costed.
Im a huge fan of Legion’s leadership, even though I don’t play aggro, because it can target your opponent’s creatures! Like tainted strike, it can be a lethal buff when you use it correctly, or even removal if you buff something that’s blocking a creature you want to get rid of!
Seth’s face when Crim mentioned the Bills at the Super Bowl 😂
If anything the problem with the Bills is that they go to the Super Bowl too often.
Boggart Trawler/Boggart Bog is a HOUSE in Wort, Boggart Auntie.
Can't believe how much they underrated it
and yarok where double etb and reanimation is huge, in a deck where kodama of the east tree/bounce lands are played, it seems pretty good...
Tomer is completely correct about 5 Color decks not really needing Utility lands. In 5 Color you have Access to all of the best Ramp, all of the best Removal, all of the best Card Advantage spells, and all of the best Board Wipes.
It's also hard to include those in 5c where you most need fixing.
@@guico33Don’t tell this to Richard, have him play cards that ask you for 3 pips of the same color in decks where your goal is to find 1 pip of every color ASAP. That or he bolts himself for a land that makes 1 color.
Every comment now just trying to be the wittiest roast at Richard:
If this gets comment of the week, Richard must, in his best Peter Griffin impression, say: “Holy crap, I’m in fortnite! Oh my gosh, this is so epic. Holy crap, it’s Donald Trump!!” And in response, in his best Donald Trump impression, Crimbo must say “Hello, Peter. Welcome to Fortnite.”
Edit: Insane that you nerds chose to top comment an episode proposal that will never happen over infinitely memable content. Nice one.
This right here 👆. Lets as a community make this happen
Let's make it happen
There are good discussions going on and then THIS nonsense gets top likes
@@Shimatzu95 what ya talking about fam. This is important
This would be great, but also so dumb
Richard: This 3 mana sorcery speed removal with incidental buff that can be an untapped land, but opens you up to a two for one is unplayable.
Richard, Later: This 5 mana sorcery speed buff with incidental life gain that can be a tapped land, but opens you up to a two for one is incredible!
When it comes to discussing lands, I feel as if Richard and Seth's main objective is to gaslight Tomer.
“Basics are bad” is not actually gas lighting
I think that they have different play styles and Tomer is mostly trying to make sure the audience knows that you don't have to cut all basics to have a strong deck. But really it's a play style choice that I think they use to crack jokes
Legion leadership is S.
Its not saying your creature and sometimes you can help one player kill another randomly
Richard: archdruid’s charm is bad because triple green
Also richard: disciple of freylise goes in every green deck
Idk I think youre kind of strawmanning, he views the charm as a ramp spell you want to cast t3, which can be quite hard. The mdfc you need 6 mana for and if you cant cast it you play it as a land.
Where's the lie?
I think you are all seriously underestimating the strength of these cards in general. What makes them so great is that they have basically 0 opportunity cost. You would very likely replace a land with them. It just gives you flexibility for almost no price. The fact that the dual color lands enter tapped is a bit of opportunity cost but that doesn't matter if you play a budget mana base and you replace another tapped land with it, then it's basically just a straight upside. I think most if not all of these MDFCs will be staples.
"zero" opportunity cost is wrong, tho. It is a very low cost, yes, but not absent. You can't just run 30 mdfcs lands in a 3+ color deck without getting mana screwed some of the time...
like yeah if youre running 25 basics then you can easily switch a basic for one of them, but in an age where we struggle to even fit 3 basics in a mana base, the opportunity cost of mdfcs is still very existent
@@TheSmartCinema Okay I would say it depends on the case. I am convinced, the mono color MDFCs have almost 0 opportunity cost, unless you are running a deck that has specific synergies with basic land types (like Cabal Coffers etc.). 3 life is almost nothing in a game of commander. The downside of replacing a basic with this is very low, the potential upside very high (although I agree that some of them are weaker than others)
For the multi color ones, it depends on what you are cutting. If you are used to playing only perfect mana bases with maximum amount of fetches, shocks, original dual lands etc. then yeah, the opportunity cost calculation becomes a bit more complex. But in the casual commander circles that I have played in, that basically never happens. Basically every 2+ color deck I have played against in casual had some amount of tap lands in it. These MDFCs cleanly replace a tap land, it's basically only an upside.
@@TheSmartCinema I mean people run like 15 basics in their 3 colour decks so I'm not sure colour screw is a bad argument for these, particularly since they have a dual colour cycle
I loathe taplands, and that spot in a lot of my decks is taken up with Triomes. I can see some of these finding a home and I think at more casual tables they are going to come up a lot, but in more streamlined/tuned lists they will fall out of favour.
@@gerritbaronvonknutschzuvie8160 there's always an opportunity cost. If you run the mono color ones in more than 2 color, you are removing basic fetchability, or color fixing. If you run the dual color ones they always enter tapped and you should not be running more than a handful of tapped lands unless your meta is so slow that everyone is playing land and passing for the first 4-5 turns of the game.
MDFCs are great and the opportunity cost can be low but we shouldn't disregard that you are either losing tempo or color fixing away from a more perfect mana base
Thanks for featuring my hot take, love yall!
Underrating Boggart Trawler imo. The creature body (hand or grave) is super relevant
Agree, on top of the graveyard hate, you can clamp it, you can recur it, you can sacrifice it. Or it's a swamp for 3 life.
I used to love Richard’s takes, but it just FEELS like his takes are wild for the sake of it - and less intelligent than they used to be! Sorry Richard 😂
Richard is usually right. The problem is that most people play in completely different types of commander metas with wildly different power levels and never take that into consideration.
I actually think that people are still playing the same Magic they always have, while Richard is a lot more familiar with game changes as he plays with his group often and whenever a new set comes out.
Right or wrong, it's great to hear a variety of opinions. You can then decide for yourself whether you agree or not.
I speak for everyone including tomer.
We want to see Richards post mh3 five colour mana base.
It's coming up on Commander Clash, so it will be out there.
I'll be running Bojuka Bog AND Boggart Trawler in every deck that can play them. You can never have enough free grave hate and potentially obliterating a graveyard player's gameplan for that little opportunity cost is incredible.
Glasswing Grace has already proven itself in my Karlov of the Ghost Council deck, where it replaced a Plains as soon as I got back from opening it at my prerelease event. Early game I will be fine playing it as a fixing land, but later than that, it is so good there, where Karlov gets huge quickly and kills with commander damage.
Tomer:
I dont wanna sac a creature to freyalise to gain life and draw cards; rates a mid fight spell higher
Tomer right after:
I really like this orzhov mdfc cuz its an aura that gains you life although its 5 cmc.
That green draw mdfc is cracked and its basically a souls might with life gain on a land….how that is not S idk.
Soul's Might doesn't require you to sacrifice the creature. For most of my decks, a creature big enough to sacrifice is one I intend to pressure the table with. I generally don't want to spend 6 mana and give up my board presence to draw cards. Whereas giving my biggest creature +2/+2 flying and lifelink enhances my board presence, can immediately win the game, at the very least gain me life to get me out of danger while maintaining my board presence.
We've seen countless examples of people tapping out to draw cards with little / no board presence and then immediately die. And yet at the same time people keep insisting that these types of plays have zero drawback.
@@MTGGoldfishCommander worst case scenario you do have 1 creature, and no other cards in hand; that’s already a losing position if anyone has more board presence or cards.
Sacrificing even a 5/5 will draw you 5 cards and gain 5 life for 6 mana and is also a land early game. Now you have a fresh hand and a whole turn to get back into the game.
Unless you have zero creatures above 3 power; its just an auto include.
And let’s be honest, the power creep is too real to do anything to 3 players with one creature…..5 cards is way better than a 5/5 and 10 cards is worth sacrificing a 10/10. Green also has 2nd best graveyard recursion next to black.
Richard: “Ondu Inversion, Sea Gate restoration… they all go in 5 color decks”
I want to have the Richard’s confidence to say consistently wrong opinions every episode lmaooo
Guys I don't get how Boggart Trawler is not S tier card. Its literally the same/better than Bojuka Bog since its untapped. 3 mana is nothing if you need to exile a graveyard. Both cards are staples in all my decks with black.
Yeah they are incredibly wrong about Boggart Trawler. The issue with Grave hate is the opportunity cost of running it and the potential of not facing a deck that uses it's grave much. The fact that Boggart Trawler is usually an untapped land means those downsides are completely eliminated. The card is better than Bojuka Bog and probably one of the easiest auto-includes in any black deck for me.
I am surprised Seth was the most reasonable one with the S ranking...giving everything an A instead XD
Glasswing Grace (Orzhov lifegain) also gives Flying.
Evasion on your attacks matter commanders is huge on those boards where there's annoying blocks otherwise. Totally jamming this card in those decks!
"I don't wanna get yelled at..." THIS IS YOU GETTING YELLED AT
Love how Tomer literally says "You can't live in fear..." but refuses to change his opinion on basics / nonbasics. Homie's living in the early 2000s still
Instant speed single target removal is great defense. I get the math, but having an answer to unwanted aggression: priceless
Have we gotten enough mdfcs to run a goblin charbercher oops no actual lands commander deck?
Richard already did that with the previous batch of mdfcs so it's even easier to do now!
Richard says Orzhov so matter of fact, you could almost believe he knew a color combo besides 5-C
I would never run freylise. There are better cards in both green and black with the same effect.
Its wild thay Boggart trawler is so underrated. You literally run this and bog. Graveyards are that good these days. Easy S for me
The problem with Boggart and Bog is that they are sorcery speed and easy for graveyard wincons to play around; and black has powerful Instant speed graveyard interaction to play instead. They are fine because they have a low opportunity cost but a low opportunity cost is still a cost in decks like mono-black where they don't feed Coffers or 3+ color which tend to be color intense.
Exactly 3 mana is nothing in late game against graveyard decks. Its literally better than bogg since is untapped
Yeah Bog is one of the easiest S of any of these. No need to even compare it to bog because you run both as you said. And it's better than Bog anyway.
It hurts to see all those comments about how tomer has 1 million basics after what happened in yesterday’s pride stream 😂
When in the stream was this? I unfortunately missed it…
@@N7Crow yesterday during the day
Tomer talks big about his manabase but shows up with 6 basics 🤣
The goblin bojuka bog has been an extremely good include in Dr. Wu, and in ZnD. The aristocrats theme is key to making it work, however both of those decks also run Bojuka bog because it’s really good.
I don’t understand how we can be so high on the fight spell mdfc’s but nobody talks about how great bushwhack is
There are so many lands now that everything not in S or A never goes in any deck
I'm so excited!!! I love mdfc and have seen the mdfc tier list 3 times. I love these polarizing opinions, can't wait to see how people have adjusted their opinions over time.
I think Legion Leadership is more useful than you all think. It's instant speed, so it could be used defensively, too. Doubling your power and getting first strike to block and kill a creature you otherwise had no hope of stopping while keeping yours completely unscathed is great. Especially for 2 mana with only 1 mana being red OR white so it could fit in mono red or mono white if you wanted to.
It's not legal in mono white/red though I think.
@@AfroAtze, correct. I suspect the OP is not aware that hybrid mana works differently in commander than in other formats, due to the color identity rule. In commander, a card with hybrid mana can only be run in decks whose commander has all of that card’s hybrid colors in its color identity.
Tomer, I have a 5 color deck that is entirely double sided, so every land in my deck other than 10 pathways and 1 meld land is an MDFC, I have all of them (prior to MH3) in the deck. The deck cannot ramp or color fix, because there are no basics or land types, no dual lands, and there is one mana rock (Mightstone and Weakstone). I haven't upgraded the deck with the new MDFCs yet, so I have basically every bad MDFC, zero dual lands, and almost all tapped lands - even with these restrictions, I am still able to cast Sea Gate Restoration in most games. Based on my experience with this deck, I think you may be overstating the difficulty of colour fixing in 5 color, especially casting some of these more pip intensive spells in the late game.
I agree with most of these. I really wanna see Seth make a 5c charbelcher deck using all the MDFCs. Please and thanks!
45:08 ❤ tomer is chicken little
Witch enchanter goes crazy with permanent blink spells like flickerwisp and ghostly flicker though
Waterlogged teachings and fierce guardianship /other free bs are best friends
Poor Richard. People ever mention the negative aspects. But you were right on many points. Bounce lands, Skullwinder, Dowsing Dagger and many more. The only thing that doesn't work at all are the mismatched lands😜
I built a deck solely around mdfc's and 3 mountains with Goblin Charbelcher. Nothing but tutors, recursion and putting things on the bottom. Put your mountain on the bottom and kill everyone. Try it!
In Gitrog the Ravenous Ride, Bridgeworks Battle and Disciple of Freyalise are easily auto includes. With Gitrog you can summon something huge like Ghalta, or Daemogoth use the fight spell to remove something that threatens Gitrog, so you can saddle it and draw cards and play lands. Freyalise does the thing Gitrog wants to do anyway minus playing the lands but in return you get huge amounts of life.
I count them as 0.7 land
Every time a great card was reviewed, you guys put up the word A S S several times 😂
"Wouldnt run it in a five color deck", at this point I just want them all to build five color decks and show us everything they run.
In any deck that's 2 or more colors the channel lands always take prio, but say all your 4-5 color decks run thorical you might as well fill them with MDFCs. If they don't then leave at least one or two slots for a basics in every color. Which means max 4 to 6 basic lands with no etali in the pod. 5-10 if you regularly play with blood moon/blue moon users.
Do you post the final tier list somewhere? If not it drives me crazy that we can’t see the holistic ranking at all ever.
Commander Clash: Come for the Crim, stay for the Tomer.
I've always loved Crim's classic blue player smarminess, while Tomer's sincerity started off cringe to me... I still love Crim being that guy, but I find Tomer a really sweet and genuine person and I hope he gets everything he wants in the world.
This one's for him: Clash On!
Tomer "I will tell you, in all my other playgroups, everyone plays basics. This is something that happens only to us". Yeah we know Tomer.. we know
Holy crap, how have I started agreeing with Crim more often than not x.x
"I am not going to spend four mana on my turn to remove some like ra-...i rather just play my turn and hope for good things to happen". Richard.
I do not understand Pinnacle Monk at S. it’s a bad creature for 3RR and you get an instant or sorcery back at Sorcery speed.
It’s nice that it is MDFC for a tapped (or lose 3 life) land if you really need it, but I never even see people play a spell like Regrowth anymore and that’s 1G for ANY card from your graveyard.
Edit: I guess you can copy it, but I feel like once you have copying reliably going in red, there are wincon setups over just getting instant or sorceries back to hand.
All about opportunity cost imo. In a storm/spellslinger list, being able to recur a spell can be huge at times.
Pinnacle monk is awesome in mono r because it’s a second blasphemous act or a Jeska’s will mana geyser or whatever. Not the best mdfc but easy include in red or gruul bc the opportunity cost is nothing
@30:37 didn't tomer say he plays the green fight spell in any green deck because it's removal. But you need a creature big enough to fight. But just destroy creature isn't in any deck with black? How?
Because a black deck will already naturally play creature removal spells. Green has fewer options on that front.
I called my pre-release deck "Gruul Stumpy" because I had three Stump Stomps. It was fantastic marauding people with that card.
18:13 I cut two lands for two MDFC’s. The fight spell is good in grull and mono green
Disciple is S tier and 100% green Sea Gate Restoration. Watch me draw 20 card because I sacc'd my massive big boi Im going to get back with Evolution Witness anyways
D - Don't play
C - Could be better
B - Better, but not awesome
A - Awesome, but not a stable
S - Staple
Seems straightforward to me lol
Someone please, build a deck out of all the cards Richard ranks at C and blast him with it
Tomer should start jamming [Settle the Wreckage] and [Winds of Abandon] in every deck.