AMD Ryzen Powered Lenovo ThinkCentre M75q-1 Tiny TMM Look
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.พ. 2021
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In the latest Project TinyMiniMicro installment, we take a look at the Lenovo ThinkCentre M75q-1 with an AMD Ryzen 5 Pro 3400GE CPU. We look at the value it provides in the market compared to what else is out there in the ~1L desktop space. This is the first Ryzen 5 Pro 3000 series system we have looked at as part of Project TinyMiniMicro.
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These small corporate units are some of the most interesting things on the second hand market right now. This series deserves a lot of support.
This is what I've been waaaaiting for so looong!!!
looking forward to the review of the gen 2 version with the 4650G!
These tiny machines are the most interesting and awesome things to play with right now. Could make a DIY tiny homelab with these for sure lol maybe even with a 3D printed tiny server rack.
Got an AMD tiny PC on order the other day to start my homelab after seeing your earlier videos. Excited to get started!
20:34 This is the bad comment that you've been expecting. Great video as usual.
Was initially looking for this unit, but they are still relatively expensive on the European market.
Managed to get a Prodesk 600 g4 with an 8500T instead for €200, and it seems to perform similar to this.
Great little machines they are.
I've been using a M715q (2400GE w/ 16GB ram) as my writing machine, and I absolutely love it. Saves a ton more energy than using my main rig that has a 3080ti, especially when I'm just typing on a Google Doc... Looking to pick up more of these when I can!
hey man just got last week my lenovo M75q-2 with a ryzern 5 4650GE and the perfomance is really good
These little beasts can run recent AAA titles on low settings thanks to the 3400GE Vega 11 graphics. Looking forward buying one.
You can also bump their tdp up a bit if there is thermal headroom using RyzenAdj. It's basically just a slightly more locked down PBO In some sense
@@tmi1234567 will increasing the TDP would make it the same as the regular 3400G?
I know it takes time to film these, but Lenovo is selling the Gen 2 version with the Ryzen 4650GE for the same price through Ebay, direct from Lenovo, brand new. I only know this because I was just checking these units out last night.
Hopefully in a year or two there will be secondary market availability of the gen2 boxes. Literally perfect for my uses, but $550/node is out of my budget right now.
yea they say they have one on the way to review.. i want to get one but i'll wait till they check one out..
Yes. Totally. Mentioned/ showed in the video and in the main site article. We have the Gen 2 4750GE unit inbound.
These boxes, both Intel and AMD based, are amazing products to buy used. Cheap, speedy, quiet, frugal with power, plenty of ports and very compact.
Now that is fucking cool. Would make an amazing linux desktop.
Nobody gives a shit about linux.....
I received my 4750ge version a week ago. And although the performance seems great, I’m kind of bummed by the fan noise. Fan noise isn’t all equal and this tiny computer’s fan is definitely whinny. Contemplating removing the top and fan and modifying it to work with another larger unit with custom exclosure. Although at that point, I may just look at another option altogether. Please let me know how your unit compares with fan noise!
The Lenovo -10 Generation of tinies is dropping massively in price right now. 4 Months ago the M710q was around 230€ and right now I got two for 160€ each.
That is a big challenge with this series. It takes time to produce but prices change over time and with inventory/ supply.
Very interesting for the 10 generation upwards is also that you can get a USB-C Port with DP Mode in the Back. I just ordered the Port for my M910q to add a Type-C Display with Touch and Pen. Thats pretty exiting to me. Also makes it a very portable solution.
The DP-alt mode USB-C ports were an interesting detail on the Asus PN50. I'm waiting for some portable USB-C touchscreens to ship so I can play around with that config, sounds like a really nice setup if it can go full one-cable, though still pretty good if it's just 2cable (separate power).
@@Birdulon I too am waiting for my ThinkVision M14t to ship to try with a M910q.
Is the m720q and m75q motherboards identical?
I really like the idea of these small nodes. The only thing that these things are missing is support for ecc memory. I wouldn't want to run any kinda database on these things without it. For some applications no ecc is fine though. This box even though it's a ryzen doesn't support ecc either. Intel desktop cpu's don't even have the option of ecc memory. Is there a ryzen TMM node out there with ecc support on the motherboard? Because that would really be interesting.
I'm waiting on drr5. Ecc for all
It's a bit sad, that because the corporate market is so used to buying Intel that it will take some time until AMD nodes of this kind hit the secondary market for the affordable prices we see on the Intel site
I also look at this like AMD being in the market means Intel needs to change. For example, once AMD entered we saw Intel bring the Core i5-x500T part from 4 to 6 cores.
Could you do a video on cleaning these units. Best way to clean a fan on HP, Lenovo and Dell for different generations.
Does repasting help?
Thanks for the review! I might pick one up from a n auction when the price is right. Now hunting a Prodesk again.
We tried re-pasting on a few units early in this series and it did not help much. Cleaning is *usually* very easy just removing dust buildup.
Perhaps your unit is expensive because it has a juicy 2x16GB RAM+512GB NVMe SSD. Of course the M75q-2 (Gen 2) is much faster, but you can also increase performance using a 135w power adapter. Also, you forgot to mention the iGPU performance compared to Intel integrated graphics. The AMD 3400GE may be on par with a Intel 9500T, but is definitely much better in the graphics department!
Is there a way to completely factory reset and remove previous programs bypassing previous securities and settings?
I have this unit and use it for S/W development and CAD. Its built-in Radeon RX Vega 11 graphics (not mentioned in the review) is fine for 2D drawing work... better than Intel ' s counterpart Lenovo's Vantage support keeps the BIOS and drivers updated automatically. USB 2.0 is fine for KB, mouse, drawing pad, and UPS. I use USB 3.0 for high-speed card reader where its full speed is used.
asking here again, as the project tinyminimicro intro is quiet some time ago:
on big question to me is storage.
newer models of those 1l category have 2 m.2 and multiple usb 3.x 10gb/s ports (no matter which vendor)
having multiple nodes clustered with each holding:
1* 120-500gb m.2 for os and vms (thinking about hypervisors like proxmox)
1* 1tb m.2 for fast storage
1-4* 10tb+ slow hdds for large data using usb 3 10gb ports.
clustering those fast and slow storages into a pool using glusterfs or ceph or any other solution.
so i want to ask:
instead of connecting the slower and larger drives via usb 3 instead of sata (as there are no internal ports or even space for those drives)...
does this become a bigger issue?
in terms of speed?
in terms of fail-safety (like a raid but in a hci-approach)?
this is not meant for a production environment; just a homelab with the wish not to waste speed and reliability on poorly made decisions ;)
(a reason i stopped thinking about raspberries)
btw: i am curious about using lenovo thinkstations or such, as they have a additional pcie port, to add a 10gb/s interface, in order to maintain fast speed across the storages.
thanks for any input in advance :)
You should be able to run external drives on USB 3 Gen1 5Gbps ports. To me the biggest challenge is that USB ports are made for quick disconnection and do not have a screw/ locking mechanism to keep them in place. With an external USB drive you have an unsecured cable at the drive end and at the 1L PC side.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo thanks for your answer! I understand your concerns about connection, which is no big dealbreaker in my planned homelab.
That i CAN run usb drives, was not the question. If it is stupid to do so, is ;)
After considering many diff machines as possible kubernetes clusters my wandering has led me to the VMWare compatibility list.
- I for one, would love to know if these machine you review run ESXi and how they handle multiple VMs. If I can run 3 VMs on a box that costs $600 thats better than 3 physical nodes that cost #$350 each. - less fault-tolerant of course.
- it would also be great to compare these Mini machines to what you get with something like a SuperMicro E200-8D - you seemed to do a lot more coverage of machines like these in the past. - maybe more cheap machines is a better way to go.
The E200-8D is a much more server-focused box using legacy hardware, so you will see it more on the ESXi compatibility list. I think that many folks these days are looking at honing KVM skills since that is a much bigger virtualization platform (AWS, for example, uses KVM) and kubernetes runs on almost anything. We already have a lot on the D-1528 in terms of performance since it is a 5+-year-old part at this point. The D-1528 is nowhere near as fast in terms of CPU performance but can use more memory and has more networking. Then again, you get much better consolidation ratios, power consumption, and pricing buying one larger node than multiple E200-8D's these days.
The TMM space is a bit different since they also have GPUs (e.g. if you want to have Plex hardware transcoding.) They are more for modern virtualization (KVM) and containers (Kubernetes) than legacy platforms like ESXi. They have much more performance per core, are less expensive, lower power at idle, and can be easily re-purposed as desktops, but sacrifice ECC memory and networking.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo - interesting I never heard of KVM - looking into it now. - To run a High availability cluster I need 3 controller nodes & 3 worker nodes. - I want to use 3 Pi as controllers since it works fine, but I want three x86 worker nodes. Whats a better starting point - 3 second hand TMM or to get a NUC i7-10710U & use KVM to give me the 3 VMs I need? - this is just a starting point - I will get more serious hardware later. I was thinking of getting a single E200-8D with 64gig ram & splitting it into 6 VMs - but I guess thats about $2000 - Is six TMM at $350 a piece better? - I guess its much more compute power in total, less noise & way more fault tolerant. - What about vMotion & Tanzu? - I need to look into KVM seems it might be a better platform
So which one of those many PCs is the best one so I can buy it
FYI the listing for the gen 2 model seems to be not available on Lenovo website (~23.00 CST 8 Feb 2021). Other third-parties have the gen 2 model backordered.
Last I looked, a few countries have it (US, Singapore), others don't (Australia :( ). There's a really beastly HP equivalent (Elitedesk 805) which is similarly unavailable in Aus. HP and Lenovo are quite happy to offer the latest Intel units but I don't care for those.
@@Birdulon when did you last look? I have to also agree with you on the Intel lineup, but I haven't touched Zen 2 so it is more of a curiosity.
@@dam1917 A couple of weeks ago or so, used to check daily especially on the HP side when it was "announced" but not up on any of their shops, but the enthusiasm wore off a bit haha.
Looks like the ThinkCentre M75q-2 is now on the Aus site with pricing and "call for availability". Pricing looks fairly similar to what the M75q-1 was, and the premium on the 8c16t CPUs doesn't seem outlandish, though the RAM and SSD pricing is as usual.
One thing you haven't mentioned is noise, how loud is it? I am really interested in the model with 4xxx series, I really hope you will talk about noise in that review.
We talk about it a bit more on the main site review. Quiet idle/ low load, but you do get a lot of fan ramp at full CPU/ GPU utilization. Building your own PC probably does not get you much on the idle noise, but does let you lower maximum noise. A lot of these run in the 5-35% utilization range typical of most desktop work. I think they are tuned to be quiet in those ranges.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Yeah, it's quieter than my NUC D54250WYK, though not in the same league. The interesting thing is the inferior build quality and components compared to Intel NUCs (don't know about Lenovo Tiny Vs. Dell Optiplex Vs. HP EliteDesk). Wish you talked more about this too in future videos!
@@selfelements8037 I strongly prefer the Dell/HP/Lenovo 1L to the Intel NUCs for build quality. My sense is that it comes from higher-volume manufacturing.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Intel NUCs have inferior build quality to Lenovo? That sounds unlikely. For example, the latches that hold the memory sticks on my M75q-1 are so cheap they don't even work anymore, or the DAC within this unit is so low-quality that it sounds like a $1 headphone compared to that of my Intel NUC D54250WYK (and I don't like Intel lol). Perhaps if you could do a stress test on every mini-pc reviewed to see variables such as CPU throttling/temperatures, that would be indicative of the overall quality of internal components.
Really need to check out the HP Elitedesk with the 4000 series ryzen and dedicated 1650 graphics
The HP 805 G6 is about $200-250 more than the Lenovo M75q-2 right now for a similar configuration. It pushes the price (well) beyond the budget we have for these.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Easy solution...increase the budget, that's the American way
@ServeTheHome: One important question: Given that it's a Ryzen 5 PRO 3400GE ( see en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/ryzen_5/pro_3400ge ), did you test whether ECC DIMMs work? That'd be one of the major purchase arguments…
it specifically says "non-ECC" in the specs
@@tommihommi1 We're not talking about _official support_ here, but whether it works in practice (as proven with other setups in the past).
@@123anonymous456 in general it only works if the motherboard manufacturer includes the code for ECC, so if they specify No ECC, I'd assume they didn't
@@tommihommi1 I don't. If the hardware is at hand, this is exactly what I expect from a thorough, support-worthy review/channel. (E.g., numerous homelab users wouldn't use 64 GB of RAM in older NUCs if nobody tested/confirmed that it worked in the first place despite what's found in a spec sheet.)
The Lenovo AM4KIH v1.0 motherboard in this unit doesn't even support memory sticks running at 2933MHz (AMD Ryzen 3400GE memory controller officially supports DDR4L-2933), let alone ECC memory. I don't know why this unit limits the memory frequency up to 2667MHz max.
Maybe the two usb 2.0 ports are for keyboard/mouse or other non USB 3.0 stuff
ayyy, i didnt know there was amd versions! nice!
Yaaay!!
yaay
It release in selected markets first
@@hk021083 I'm still waiting for the M75q-2 (Gen 2) to become available here in Brazil!
Would love to get my hands on the gen 2 version of this mini-pc if Lenovo's website would actually let me buy it. Not sure if it's just this product or if it's site-wide, but some of you may not be able to buy directly from Lenovo.
WD SN730 = WD BLACK SN750. So a very nice drive.
I know the second generation is out, but I wonder if you can still try your hand at installing a 35W Renoir APU into this unit. (Ryzen 7 PRO 4750GE comes to mind).
Personally, I think the adapter is a bit tight, I would expect a 90W adapter for this particular Tiny (but then, you can get yourself one of those).
I think the BIOS is using an AGESA without renoir support
I probably would be less excited to try this. It would be less expensive to just buy the unit with the Ryzen 7 Pro 4750GE (we just bought one so I did price this out)
@@tommihommi1 Bummer. And I'm sure all Lenovo BIOSs that will roll out will be mostly to iron some stability kinks along the way or small microcode updates...
@@juanignacioaschura9437 yes, that's what the bios patch notes say. the AGESA version is unchanged from initial release, that is typical for these devices.
I had good results using a 90W ThinkPad brick for a 3400GE M75q-1. With the stock 65W brick it throttled the CPU side hard under graphics load.
Feel like this installment (though I may have missed one or two) of TMM has done the absolute best job addressing the pricing issue. The fact that one buyer found a seller that knew nothing about what they were selling and got some item insanely cheap or got a bulk discount, or whatever, just does not convey a review that is intended for George q. public as being genuine. I hope you continue cost discussions of future TMM equipment (obviously if it's a high end server, then the pricing perspective changes) with the same level of real world pricing as you did with this wayy, wayyyy, wayyyy over priced item. Good review.
Wish there was a purchase link that worked internationally
I have a M715q which is equipped with a Ryzen 3 2200GE, I think this is the 1st generation of thinkcentre tiny series.
Has anyone tried replacing the tiny built in speaker with a bigger one intended for like a chromebook.
Well yes I like AMD but also like Intel as well, own and use both types of platforms.
I was wondering if there are any ARM based units in this form factor ?
The closest/ best is the Apple Mac Mini M1. The challenge there is that using it with other OSes is not as straightforward as loading via an ISO. There are ways to get other OSes, but it is much harder.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo ,yeah I was thinking the same thing too.
Thanks for the feedback Patrick, keep up the GREAT work :)
Now if only I could setup multi-nodes like this with my C64's and/or Amiga's ;)
How much one of em?
Ryzen 4000 is beastly.
These will be monsters when 4000 units start selling cheap.
The M75q Gen2 mentioned in the video that is inbound is a Ryzen 7 4750GE so 8C/ 16T unit and not much more than this. I am very excited. On the other hand, you can get the i7-8700T units for just under $500 with 16GB/512GB these days which are faster than this 3400GE.
USB 3.x port backwards compatibility is sometimes not exactly what you might expect... not having one or two "true" USB 2.0 ports next to the newer gen ports on a stationary system can still be a deal breaker for many. Myself included.
I would like to be able to buy 7nm AMD cpu with a basic graphics for our enterprise desktop. Unfortunately it is only available at much higher performance and price. I might actually look much closer at Lenovo vs Dell because of that. These reviews are great.
i got my Gen2 with 4750GE for $530, with only 4GB of RAM and 500GB HDD, but plan to add 16GB of RAM and 500GB SSD for another $140
I dont know if it will work this way, but i'm hoping that with a 4+16GB setup that will give me 8GB of dual channel 3200mhz, and then 12GB of single channel for overflow
I did add a USB-C port, but after looking up a teardown, i am wondering if i might be able to get a PCIe 8x riser into those apparently active pins and add in a 10g nic or maybe a cheap video card if they're ever made again, I'm thinking something on the scale of GT710, but RDNA based
If the thinkpads we have at work are anything to go by, the Ryzen 4000 based laptops have siginificantly lower idle power draw than 3000 and 2000 series laptops, will have to take a look when i get my personal M75Q-Gen2, and compare it to the Gen1 at work(3400GE)
I am jealous of that at $530!
@@ServeTheHomeVideo Replied to your tweet for the M75Q-1, THINKDESK45 is still a valid coupon for 45% off, 8 cores, 4GB/500HDD win10pro and wifi 6 for $522
Caviat is with the shipping time, 5 weeks, and the order was canceled on me once. second order seems to have gone through as the wireless keyboard with trackpoint arrived yesterday
One thing I think you're missing here is that these Ryzen APU graphics are far better than intels... I realize you're focused on homelabs but you should check out the ASRock DESKMINI X300W. I bought a 4650g on ebay for $265 and a 512gb ssd and 16gb ram came to about $562. I threw in a Noctua NH-L9a-AM4 for ultra quietness and for $600 its pretty insane other than the lackluster I/O. Amazing PC from my Pinball cabinet.
Big fan on your work btw
That is a good point. My challenge with the integrated graphics is that the people who are buying these nodes for labs are probably not overly excited for gaming on integrated graphics versus just having a GPU. I have been thinking about doing units like that ASRock, but every size increment opens up a huge new set of potential options to cover. This series has already gotten bigger than I wanted just trying to stick to the ~1L PCs.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo For sure but i think there would be an audience for it and the 4650G IS available on Ebay from China. It's actually an insane value and arguably some of the best value for a homelab at the moment. I think particularly the X300 fits in the spirit of your project.
Also I can't understate the fact that I was able to put in a cooler that is basically silent which can be pretty important for some people's labs.
On the European market heaps of these are available in the UK. After brexit, importing to a EU country makes these 1l machines way overpriced (same prices as new pretty much). I'll get one once they hit local grey markets
ECC?
What CPU do you recommend to upgrade this device?
AMD Ryzen 5 PRO 2400GE w/ Radeon Vega Graphics 3.20 GHz, thats the one that came whit it, but I don't know why I'm not getting 4k and the best graphic quality, so I'm thinking to upgrade the CPU.
Able to play any game there ?
I bought one of these for $100 because the screen flashes when plugged in. I am taking a risk, because if everything but the ryzen 3400ge works, I can just barely get my money back by liquidating the components. I like mini computers and have enjoyed your series. Ryzen 5 with 16gb is all I'll let myself use, for work.
Found one of these with 8gb, 256gb drive for $100, nabbed it real quick
Wow! At that price/ config you got a steal.
@@ServeTheHomeVideo That's what I said! I also found a M910q for $100 w 8gb ram, 256gb ssd, i5-6500t for my grandfather. Blew his socks off coming from a Intel G640 and spinning disk.
I wonder if it costs more to get a hold of because companies are retaining them longer and there's continued demand? Victim of its own success scenario?
The connectivity on this one is a real bummer, even the Mac mini has more ports...
I would have been happy if they were at least all USB 3.1 Gen1 5Gbps ports.
Has anyone here been successful in upgrading the 75Q 2400GE to a 3400GE? Same specs, but my first attempt produce nothing.
Any tiny-micro-mini's that can take 2 SSD's?
it has 1 NVME and 1 SATA
This can take two technically, one 2.5" SATA and one NVMe. If you are looking for two NVMe the M920x was an example we did that took two.
Can you do a review of putting one of this Lenevo units as a crypto miner. Perhaps do hardware upgrades on it as needed to make it a profitable miner. Use www.nicehash.com to run a benchmark share the hashrate for monero etc. That would be way relevant with crypto currency bull runs. Thanks
I have a gen 2 with the 4750ge
Lenovo has wild deals all the time. I got a custom build and saved $660
I am excited for the Gen 2 4750GE that is on its way here.
Its a nice little unit. Mine has the pads for the dual m.s ssd another wwan, pcie 4x header. The bios has the options to enable it all also. So this could be a nice unit down the road. Or modded
I'll buy it when my company upgrade their pc, 3 years from now to be exact and hello cheap pc with monitor
The Mac minis of PC world...
Lenovo Nice 🤩🤩🤩
Funny how when these were called "Thin Clients" nobody bought them or cared, now they are tiny mini PC's or USFF PC's and everyone wants them.
hasn't their performance generally gone up in a significant way in the last few years? I remember looking at the specs for one of those thin clients at our uni library about a decade ago expecting to see an atom CPU, and it was some sad little anemic VIA thing that could juuust barely give you a screen output and connect to a network
No love for the 100 dollar t640? Am I gonna have to review the first TinyMiniGhetto box?
Got one running pfsense. It's nice.
my experience is, avoid Realtek and especially Qualcomm wireless at all costs. If you have the choice between no wifi and Qualcomm at the same price, get no wifi and throw in a Intel AX200 for less than $20
Whats wrong with qualcomm atheros? Its the most open source of the wireless hardware
@@MultiKokonutz I've only had bad experiences regarding wifi performance and reliability with qualcomm chips in laptops. In phones they work OK, of course.
@@tommihommi1 Honestly I have never used a laptop with their chips. But they are the best choice for Openwrt
what no thunderbolt ports...........ugh
Lmao I just bought one for 180 tax included on ebay. It's 16gb ram. The price drops on these is amazing.
Hmm, funny Intel is now the value option. My how the turns have tabled.
AMD Fanboys pushing up the prices as AMD can't keep up with demand.
I keep looking at AMD CPUs AMD all of the Value options are out of stock at retailers with only scalpers having them available for costs beyond the Intel equivalents.
@@tomonabudget I don't think it's all fanboys. A year ago, AMD had a mature platform and a competitive (not dominant like now) performance position in CPUs. But they also had last gen parts for the budget segments from a completely different supplier (Global Foundries).
This year they have to satisfy demand for an even more mature platform that Dell/HP/Lenovo want to sell. All while trying to supply millions of XBox & Playstation APUs, plus dominant EPYC Milan chips, plus RDNA2 gpus that are twice the die size as RDNA1, plus Ryzen 5000 APUs for laptops. All of those on TSMC 7nm, and they don't have the Global Foundry backstop with last gen budget parts anymore.
Ryzen Pro = you get ECC support. Nice.
For Ryzen in general it depends on the motherboard. Is it always available on Ryzen Pro?
No I don't wonder how you pay for this thing. That is between you and the IRS.
Fan noisy compared to a Mac mini
Still not getting the "tiny" hype, specially when you can get a SFF computer with proper expansion capabilities (PCIe, 4 DIMM slots, etc.) at the same price
Edit: I mean, for homelabs, otherwise they are pretty cool boxes
Edit 2: there is clearly a demand for those with space constraints, and the Kubernetes use case is one I've completely overlooked, so yes, the tiny form factor is not just a "hype"
Why 4 DIMMs? What are you doing that requires 256GB of RAM but doesn't require ECC RAM?
@@WhenDoesTheVideoActuallyStart It's cheaper per GB to get 4 x 8GB DIMMM modules than 2 x 16 GB SO-DIMM, for instance. Or simply just two modules today with some room for upgrades.
Companies probably prefer this because of the size, for shipping and desk organization (Just mount it to the monitor). Plus, they don't really upgrade, they only care about having the necessary specs and good reliability.
And people usually buy these because they're being sold for cheap by these companies, and they can't really build their own PC/can't be bothered to build an ITX PC to use as a firewall or NAS or whatever the fuck people use these for.
Especially when every day there's a different component out of stock.
@@WhenDoesTheVideoActuallyStart I meant "tiny" vs "SFF" from a homelabber perspective, otherwise they are cool devices