Katara does carry water around with her. At least in the comics she usually does and no not just the spirit water. She always has a pouch of water with her. Even so she doesn't need it as long as you ther is grass and trees around she's good. Still the image of Katara with a giant gourd of water is funny af
The episode "Puppet Master" has a waterbender teach her how to pull and use water anywhere. Plants, animals, etc. "where there is life, there is water"
@@ctbcreative it was during her training with Hama, the blood bender. Hama does this and then Katara outperforms her in bending, so it’s reasonable to assume she can too imo
This is probably one of the most exciting video ideas I've ever seen on youtube. Now I'm thinking about Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee taking on the Narutoverse.
12:50 Shikamaru could pull off a weak shadow possession. Water is transparent but would still have a weak shadow. Katara gets thrown off a bit like she’s being bloodbent without full control and she takes the W basically one handed but Shika puts in a good effort trying to bait her into freezing the water and losing all of it.
@@sageofthickcalves Gotcha might have missed that. Would love for this series to continue. Going as far as we can with ATLA until Aang is no longer relevant loved the video.
Thanks for this thoughtful and well-presented analysis. Cross-verse scaling is especially difficult but quite interesting when done well. Many people resort to saying whoever is faster wins and while that tends to be pretty objective, it is much more interesting to consider all factors. Subscribed.
Exam: I think Katara can make an ice mirror remotely to see someone's test. She could also wet somebody's pants and water whip (ice tip) the paper to herself and just write her name on top. Toph is blind and struggles with Paper. I think it's more likely she uses sandbending to literally lift the answers (the actually text itself) left by the lead pencil dust from their paper to her test. She can also blind people in the room with sand and take their sheets. The most likely result: Aang would sneeze blowing all the paper in the room around and suck in someone else's sheet during the confusion.
few issues the katara one is mostly fine tho i think chances someone sees it are quite high toph cant do that im pretty sure lol she also like dosent know what letters look like so idk plus again i think someone would def see shed have to blind the person whos test shes taking and all 10 proctors plus she dosent just have sand
The team assembled to save the world gets the dub . Im not surprised except for by their speed feats, that's impressive shit. Team Avatar is comprised of MONSTERS.
Nicely done Sage. Yeah Katara's fight with Toph probably does end with Toph taking a win since she's just in her element (literally.) Only win condition i could figure for Katara is if she froze the arena since we know Toph can't see on ice (Ref: Serpent's Pass.) And also Toph can't swim. But there wouldn't be enough water there for it to matter. Either way this plays out pretty much how hou described it. 10/10 scenario, dropping a like to get that Sasuke Retrieval Video. P.S., if you want a hand with the comic scaling, i gotchu
@@sageofthickcalves chunin exams were rigged lol. The 4 top prospects that were talked about at the beginning got their most favorable matchups on the "randomized" screen.. A guy brought it up to me once and I've never forgotten. Made me think lol. The betters they talked about at the start of the 3rd exam - they made even more sense with that in mind lol. If only they knew how Rock Lee made Gaara work
Okay I will say this. I do not necessarily think they are faster than lightning because they are able to react to it. I think they are reacting to the movements of the person using the lightning. And even with Iroh's feat he is sensing where the lightning will strike and then positions himself for that. It doesn't make him faster than lightning It makes him good at sensing the build up and knowing that lightning will strike the metal thing in the ocean. This all assuming that lightning itself does not move slower in Avatar as these two feats are incompatible with the other feats they display within their own universe.
Zuko runs in front of Azula’s lightning after she’s fired it. As far as the lightning moving slower than real lightning, you’d have to prove that. Iroh reacts to real lightning, so you’d have to prove that natural lightning in avatar is slower than irl
She would need a full moon for it, unless she trained to master the ability like Amon did, then she could bend blood without needing the full moon enhancing her chi, and I don't doubt for a second that Katara lacks the physical talent required for it.
Loved this video, just a few nitpicks. I honestly don't know how team avatar, would react to genjutu (thinking of the situation team 7 ran into in the forest) also for Aang vs shino is a bit more complicated since I don't know if Aang is able to sense the vibrations of insects given their weight, especially when he doesn't know about shino and has no reason to focus on sensing insects (which could also naturally just be there) The last thing is I think you underestimate shikamarus intelligence. But that's all I can add. As Said, great video
Thank you so much! So, I think Aang and Toph would be perfect counters for that type of genjutsu due to their seismic sense. They’d be able to detect where the real enemies were pretty easily. In regards to Aang vs Shino, I genuinely think that even if he can’t sense the bugs with seismic sense, the way Shino fights with them at that point is not going to help him at all. With Zaku, he just surrounded him on all sides and snuck some up into his hands, but Aang can literally just disperse all of them with an omnidirectional wind blast. I also think his high spirituality connects him to nature in a unique way. We know air benders are the only ones who have a 100% bender birth rate, due to their high spirituality, so I see no reason to think it would be weird for him to be able to naturally sense the bugs tbh. As far as Shikamaru, I just don’t see a way for him to handle getting blitzed by that water and still connecting his shadow to Katara. I could be wrong, but I just don’t see it.
Aang’s greatest weakness in combat is his personality. He’s down to do the right combat move when he’s playing, but when it gets real he holds back. Also, completely forgot about the benders’ ability to react to lightning attacks makes then absurdly fast.
great vid but one fatal error you might have missed in the case of neji and potentially sasuke is that the byakugan and sharingan to a much lesser extent can see the nervous system of the individual with the byakugan specifically which allows them to see chakra networks in naruto chakra networks are actually apart of the character biology and neji would notice they don’t have one and immediately and rethink his strategy however he can 100% see their pressure points and if he strikes them where their chi is contain neji would effectively learn to chi block mid fight since hes a genius and significantly smarter than the benders fighting while its not guaranteed he could do this it would be an instant win condition since the avatar character are effectively defenseless except maybe aang but toph would have no way to fight and would be helpless aang could in theory bypass with avatar state but he is very limited with it at this age and is extremely vulnerable especially without proper control
Okay, so this is wank but ... There is lore within Avatar that the Avatar Spirit, being the soul of the Earth prior to the Korra recton, scales above the Ying-Yang and therefore above anything that has duality. This would actually put Aang above most of the gods in DC or Marvel, let alone Naruto.
Yeah I’ve seen that. I’d argue that the best we can get from Raava scaling is moon + level, due to her being above the moon spirit. But that feels like wank too lmao
@@sageofthickcalves Yeah, Korra retconned a bunch of stuff. The Avatar Spirit was originally just the Soul of the Earth itself, hence their connection to the Spirit World. So he'd scale to at least planet level, due to literally being the planet in human form, and then maybe to above duality with some lore. And then Korra made it a magic carpet in a giant insult to the lore that came before as well as the mythology that inspired it.
Amazing video I love Avatar and Naruto so it was really interesting to see the battles to be honest I already knew they were going to go to the finals and win. Great video
Hey dude awesome vid, one thing I think u may have missed, u said that team avatar has lightning time reaction speed but not movement speed, but in Zukos fight with Azula Zuko runs in front of Azulas lighting bolt to redirect it, that would put his movement speed to around lightning time as well.
id argue shik would be able to beat katara he could realistically use the same trick on her than he did on kin as her water would cast a shadow i dont think itd be to diffuclut cause the general attack speed of the water isnt that high especially considering itlll be pretty hard for her to bend while dodging the shadow plus then he could just throw kunai at her and since she dosent carry any he wouldnt get hit with any back so shed have to surrender or die i also dount shed have seen his shadow and im not sure she has the mobility to dodge it without water enhancing her movements katara also cant psychically bend
I think this is just one of those instances where Naruto's power scaling is generally lower in the first season because of how realistic the show was before Shippuden hit. It also doesnt help that it is essentially End of show Avatar vs 2nd-3rd Arc Naruto. Say if this was Book 2 Avatar then I think things would be closer in terms of both story and scaling. I do also want to mention that the issue with Gaara vs Sasuke is technically that fight never concluded, and honestly I think Gaara wouldve won assuming they fought to completion. TBH I think Gaara kinda clears. I personally am not of the belief that Toph could bend control of the sand away from Gaara, and Aang even with the Avatar state I dont know how the fight with Shukaku would go. He doesn't have the durability to tank more than maybe 3 attacks from Shukaku (cause the Tailed beasts are bare minimum Mountain level), and I'm unsure if any of what Aang has is capable of doing enough damage to Stop Shukaku outright. Buuuut Id be willing to believe Aang could pull it off. If we're going Sasuke Retrieval Arc though the power scaling shifts again. I think putting Avatar state Aang at City level is the most accurate in terms of AP and Durability, and as far as Sasuke and Naruto are concerned they are typically scaled City-Mountain level in this arc.
Spirits in the Avatar world usually hold some sort of massive influence and advantage against any non spirit. Gaara's sand is possessed by his mother's spirit and Gaara himself is partly possessed by Shukaku, who likely scales far above most spirits of the Avatar world. It's remarkably improbable Toph could influence Gaara's sand more than the combined union of Gaara, his mother and Shukaku.
@@RheaMainz Exactly, I hated that some (Death Battle included) argue Toph can bend Gaara's Sand when it can potentially be controlled by up to 3 entities. One of which as you said, 100% scales above the avatar cast.
@@sageofthickcalves I feel like a fun one would also be like, where does Avatar just cap out vs Naruto. Like, as a verse. Includes spirits and stuff. Just to see your take.
@@grantwilliams93 oh bro if you include spirits, Raava and Vaatu can be scaled to outerversal because they’re said to surpass the concepts of reality lmao
Genjutsu wouldnt work either since Aang has the Avatar state which act as a 6th sense so hell easily break the Genjutsu. Not to mention even without the Avatar state he has spirits within him to make him aware that hes in an illusion which can lead to him being broken free.
If Aang is a fully realized Avatar in this scenario and doesn't have his no-kill rule, he can do some pretty metal shit considering he has all the abilities of Yangchen and Kiyoshi, bro could legit kill his enemies by touching them and freezing their lungs and hearts 💀
@@sageofthickcalves Ozai was lucky that Middle Schooler Aang was holding back, bro would have finished Ozai even without Avatar State if he wanted to, he was verbatim the most powerful Airbender on the planet when he was 10 and Ozai's notes in Avatar Extra books show that Aang was holding back against Ozai anyways, it was only Aang's pacifism that caused him to be on the backfoot
@@sageofthickcalves Can you imagine her face if Toph did that? XD This whole time she's thought Toph just had really strong earth release and then suddenly her fan is a twisted lump.
I'd like to see if individual Akatsuki members can take down the Fire Nation from ATLA. Let's also count Zuko and Iroh in the Fire Nation and let's also say that it's during the time of Sozin's Comet. Can any of the Akatsuki individually solo the entire Fire Nation?
This video was awesome, can't wait for the Sasuke Retrieval one! One more thing, have you seen El_Eon's videos about Kaido Vs the 5 kage and the madara one? If so, what's your opinion on them?
Aang should be able to close most gaps in a fight because in the blue spirit episode hes shown running "faster than the wind" (according to a few fire nation soldiers on watch) when trying to get medicide to katara and sokka
Regardless of me not exactly agreeing on some of the scaling and Team Avatar having better hand to hand, its still good to hear your opinion on new and interesting What If topics. Great vid and I hope to see Team Avatar in the Sasuke Retrieval Arc
One thing to mention is that Lee is insanely fast to the point that kakashi needs the sharingan to see him as he pulls it off to properly look at Lee and sure kakashi is rusty but its more likely unquantifiable rusty as he has statements suggesting he is still stronger than Guy and Asuma plus he was exhausted when using the lightning blade to hit the lightning bolt
Just wanna point out that tamari is flying on a fan that has metal on it so I’m gonna assume that toph can sense it. So I don’t think her flying is gonna be a problem for her. Hell if anything she just rips the fab apart sense that’s her only means of using wind style
but Toph senses stuff with vibrations she feels through her feet so she shouldn’t be able too. that’s why she could barely see sand benders in the desert but is still able to bend sand
Bro, I hope that Team Avatar vs Sasuke Retrieval happens. That's a fun topic for sure! Also, Here's something you didn't mention that I thought of. Couldn't Aang redirect Sasuke's Chidori? It is lightning and he can redirect lightning. I find the image of Aang shadow faced with glowing anime eyes staring Sasuke down as he catches his Chidori with one hand and respawns it in his other.
Wait. Is this what power scaling is? Dude. I totally get why people hate this stuff. Wow! But great job with the math, dude! This took a lot of work. And it’s really high quality And it turns out I just hate power scaling 😂
13:00 to be fair, Boomie has the most precise use of bending in the whole series so hard to say if Katara could do it herself (also Korra changed all the bending rules and is not Cannon)
@@sageofthickcalves it could be a very long list but let's start with the most agregious. There are multiple scenes of fire bender flying without the comet boost, they made water bending straight up magic with the spirit calming ability, the body movements needed to perform bending and the idea that is based on a specific martial art was completely forgotten (how many water bender have you seen using kicks in AtlA ) I'm not even gonna start on what they did to lighting generation And lastly they completely changed the lore of bending being learned from imitating animals (Badger Mole, Dragon, Sky Bison, we never learned the water one)
@@sageofthickcalves if we can't agree that changing the origin of bending was retconning then we probably won't agree on much on Korra. I'm happy for you if you enjoyed Korra but it's not for me Anyway still a nice vid👍 have a nice day
@@sageofthickcalves well Madara would probably be the most annoying issue since the actul author noted that there was no way of taking madras down so yeh but it’s intresting
@@sageofthickcalves well not exactly but I got this statement According to Kishimoto, Madara is not just like any other character introduced in the series. He created Madara as a character with no weaknesses. As one of the antagonists in the story, Kishimoto designed Madara as the antithesis to the protagonists' values, a perfect anti-hero. So I think this could be evidence to back my statement
This is super charitable to team avatar. Despite how high you scale team avatar we see many characters clearly under that level fight mid diff fights with them in the last Airbender, also you had them switch with the sound team but they dont encounter any of the same people the sound team did. One of the important parts of the start of the chunin exams was before the exams started and wveryone was in the room together and a lot of the genins interactes with each other. Team avatar would definitelyput a target on their back due to angs goofiness and tophs abrasiveness. In the forest of death the sound team encounters team 7 and team Guy, both of which have teams that (i personally think) would beat them. 2/3 of team guy are enhanced versions of azulas team that came through and bullied team avatar in the show. Neji is literally Ty Lee on steroids with precog and Ten Ten is just Mai with a far greater arsenal. Neji should solo since the power systems are equalized and he is literally taking thier bending away via gentle fist. Also having a hypothetical avatar vs naruto crossoverwithout having any of the avatar characters interact with Naruto at all is kind of wild.
Ok so a few things here 1: Mach 587 is a low ball for team avatar, based on the fact that Zuko actively outran Azula’s lightning. So, I was being charitable to the Naruto characters with that. I was also being charitable by giving all of the top tiers a speed blitz tier above Gaara’s sand defense, when you could argue that the sand could somewhat react to Lee’s speed, meaning it’s not a true blitz tier difference. Had I said 2x instead of 4x there (probably a more accurate calculation), the Naruto characters would’ve maxed out around Mach 260 instead of 530. 2: I only subbed team avatar in for the sound squad once we get to the prelims. I was explicit about that. 3: I think you’re falling into the same character misinterpretation a lot of people are. Team Avatar isn’t nearly as goofy or silly by the end of book 3 as they are early on. So I don’t think they’d put a target on their backs for their silliness, but even if they did, none of the other teams is contending with them. 4: Saying that “many characters under that level fight mid diff fights with them in the last airbender” requires that you prove they’re lower in terms of scaling. Even characters like Jet, who are supposed to be regular humans, should scale to lightning timer levels by their feats. Don’t be fooled into believing the “regular humans” in ATLA are like regular humans in the real world. We see that’s not the case by the way of “regular humans” surviving getting blasted in the face by high velocity stones that would kill people irl. 5: Neji doesn’t scale as high as Azula’s squad. That’s where your misconception comes to a head tbh. Those girls are easily lightning timers as well. Don’t get me wrong, I was SHOCKED, but the scaling is what it is man.
1. I'm not too sure of how fast Mach 587 is but I'm just assuming it's in the realm of lightning. To my knowledgeIroh is the only on screen character to react to and redirect genuine lightning is Iroh, who scales above the azula/zuko/aang level characters. So to assume that a.(just because iroh can redirect actual lightning and bended lightning alike that they are the same speed) and b.(that just because iroh can do this that other lightning benders/redirecters can as well is super charitable. If that same level of charity was granted to the naruto world then kid Kakashi blitzing lightning with his raikiri would be extended to the chidori Sasuke level characters as well. 2. The problem with only subbing after the forest of death is they don't face any kind of adversity in your scenario which doesn't make sense. The sound team came into contact with Lee, Naruto, Neji, and Sasuke. There's no way the avatar team comes into contact with those characters in the FoD and leaves unscathed like in your example. 3. I think the major reasonthey lose a lot of their goofiness is due to them having been hunted for months on end and the impending fire nation threat. I'm not 100% sure when they found out about sozins comet but if it's around the same time I'd wager that'd be quite the mood killer as well. The chunin exams is far less at stake and they'd be able to be less tense and act more like their actual selves which we saw was goofier and happy go lucky. 4. The same way you can creatively scale characters to the top tiers in avatar, you can do the same in naruto. You can scale chunin exams characters to kid Kakashi who blitzed lightning, or Haku who blitzed the guy that blitzed lightning, or scaling sasuke reacting to oro in the forest of death (oro scales to hiruzen, who scales above the 3rd/4th raikage who can scale to Jonin Minato who has far above lightning maybe approaching lightspeed reactions), etc... you can make reaches in both series to scale characters far higher than they should be scaled it just seems like you'reaccepting the avatar scaling but not the naruto scaling. 5. I think neji would scale to those characters, if the top tiers in both shows are lightning timers and neji has not only the best showcase of h2h in both series and precog via byakugan how is he not at the very least comparableto Ty Lee? Gentle fist can even shut down Chakra points while defending since you barely need to make contact and if power systems are equalized he's quite literally capable of taking their bending away. I love the video idea, just think you should be a little more impartial. I think for most people the eye test says naruto characters>avatar characters in speed and strength, it's perfectly fine if scaling can get avatar characters to naruto levels, but if you use that charitable scaling you should also use the charitable scaling for naruto as well.
@@uchiharainy 1: Iroh certainly does not scale above Aang. He likely scales around where Ozai is, since he was unsure if he could beat him. Since Aang scales to Ozai in base, and above him in the avatar state, we can safely get Aang to lightning timer levels (Mach 587 at the lowest). Since Azula is able to react to and press Aang, anyone who scales to or around Azula should also be in that range. That applies to both Zuko and Katara. Then for Toph, she comfortably scales around the rest of the benders in team avatar as well. 2: That’s a personal issue, not an issue with the video. I inserted them into the series as if they were a random team joining the exams. I specifically stated that they’d likely encounter a random, weaker team, since statistically that’s the likelihood, and that they couldn’t be snuck up on by shinobi or taken down by the animals, for obvious reasons that I explained. The reason I had them replace the sound team after the forest of death is because it was the easiest team to replace, aside from the one that Kabuto was on, and that team had the dude who fought Sasuke. Had I went with that, I would’ve had Sasuke getting mopped by any of the 3 because he couldn’t use chakra and scales below them. It also would make no sense to sub them in for the sound team before that because they’d never engage with team 7 like that. There would be no reason to when they can just easily steal a scroll from an unassuming team using their bending and head straight for the tower. 3: Team Avatar goes through a massive character shift in maturity throughout the series that lasts into the comics, independent of a massive threat looming. I could’ve clarified that during the video I suppose. But no there’s no reason to assume they’d be acting goofy and attracting attention, unless I use their season 1 versions. 4: You absolutely cannot scale any of the kid characters from Naruto part 1 to kid Kakashi or Haku, at least not with any valid substantiation. There’s no scaling line that connects them to those characters in terms of scaling. As far as Oro, he was very clearly holding back and then blitzed Sasuke with his bite the moment he wanted to. The issue you’re going to run into is that you have no legitimate ways to make those scaling chains work, since it would all be based off of dishonest assumptions, while the Avatar scaling chain works flawlessly. There’s no dishonest scaling chains or assumptions made there. It’s all based on things we actually see happen. Naruto Genin from part 1 are most consistently scaled to the level I scaled them, but I honestly kinda high balled them to be honest. This is verifiable when you look at the Sasuke retrieval mission too. Neji, who had no issue reacting to 3rd Gate Lee without his byakugan active and wasn’t even surprised until Lee reached 4th Gate, couldn’t react to Kidomaro’s “lightning speed” arrow. So, those kids are firmly below lightning speed verifiably. 5: None of the kid characters in Naruto part 1 are lightning timers. Not a single one. I will say that, using my high ball scaling to get them to Mach 530, you could argue the byakugan precog would help Neji to react to team avatar, but it wouldn’t matter because they’re still physically faster than him AND all have long range options that he doesn’t have. I appreciate the discussion and your passion here, but there’s genuinely no way to honestly scale the Naruto Genin to the level of the team avatar characters. The best case would be Lee in the 5th Gate, but even that’s tough.
@@sageofthickcalves You kinda just ignored a lot of my points and replied the same replies as before... 1. There is a clear gap between Iroh/Ozai and Zuko/Azula level fire benders. Azula gets blitzed and her lightning redirected by Iroh, that doesn't happen with characters that are relative to each other. We see all four of them fight during Sozin's comet and clearly Ozai and Iroh's feats are greater than Zuko/ Azula's. Again you're being pretty charitable to avatar characters, you're giving EOS Azula credit for "pressing" an Aang that is relative to Ozai, when that wasn't the same aang that azula fought. azula fought a weaker aang. Also aang is clearly the strongest in his group, its disingenuous to act like toph, zuko, katara etc are in the same echelon as aang. If aang (and iroh imo) is the only person in the world capable of defeating Ozai during Sozin's comet then how does the rest of the group scale to him? 2. Again i dont think you see how you're being biased to team avatar. You're just giving them an easy pass through the part of the exam that would give them the most problems. They're not just skating by Neji, Lee, Naruto and Sasuke. 3. difference in opinions i guess, but i'd assume world ending conflicts would tend to make a group of kids trying to save the world a lot more serious than they'd tend to be normally. i don't really see how you can separate the two because the show didn't, so it seems like you're just inserting your headcannon into it (which is fine, but you can't just make your headcannon seem like its the gospel or something) 4. So the 2 characters that reacted to and tagged Haku and Haku level characters on screen can't scale to haku??? KC Naruto has statements and feats to back up being relative to haku and by extension kid kakashi and you can scale the other genin to him via that, it's the same sort of scaling you used to scale the entirety of avatar to iroh/aang level characters. We see KC react to and tag Haku mid body flicker, which is undeniably at least lightning timer level. Zabuza is relative to kakashi, meaning he is relative to kid kakashi who is a lightning timer (adult kakashi would likely be quite a bit stronger than kid kakashi so by extension so should zabuza), Zabuza has also stated that Haku is Superior to him and Kakashi implied the same as well. base Naruto and sasuke caught zabuza off guard with their shadow clone shadow shuriken combo, even if you don't grant LoW base naruto and sasuke (which you shouldn't) being lightning timers, you can't just act like team avatar is just unreactable to them because they have multiple on screen showings that prove they can catch a lightning timer off guard. 5. theres a vast difference in lightning timers in naruto and lightning timers in ATLA. In naruto i consider Kid Kakashi a lightning timer because he saw lightning in the sky, ran to it and clashed with it before it hitits target. You consider zuko a lightning timer because he saw where azula was pointing her hand to lightning bend and dodged that. These are two completely different caliber feats. The only character in ATLA that has done a similar feat to kakashi is Iroh, he saw genuine lightning, and reacted and redirected it. There's still nothing (to my knowledge) confirming that bended lightning is the same speed as actual lightning anyways. Lightning timers in naruto are absolute lightning timers no contention, the same can't be said about avatar. You even have some reservations about this yourself as you grant that naruto characters may have higher movement speeds than avatar characters (but then you act as if this is reversed when you say that even byakugan precog wouldn't help neji react to the avatar characters because they're physically faster than him). To the last point if you did grant 5th gate Lee being the level of avatar characters, then Gaara, Sasuke , Naruto, and Neji all outscale them. It is cool to see Avatar characters scaled this high but i think it's not genuine scaling, and if you do consider it genuine scaling then i don't see why you have contention with the same style of scaling being used for pt 1 Naruto. Enjoyed the chat thus far, keep up the vids!
@@uchiharainy I’ve also enjoyed the conversation! And I appreciate the love for the vids 🙏🏼 As for your points - 1: The scaling I used for Iroh was specifically to show that there’s no reason to believe that the lightning created by characters like Azula and Ozai is slower than natural lightning. Since you’re saying Iroh scales to or around Ozai, the fact that Zuko can react to and redirect Ozai’s lightning, and Azula can react to and keep up with Zuko, it’s 100% fair to put them in the same tier of combat speed. Also, due to the fact that Iroh describes the lightning he bends as essentially the same was we describe the phenomenon of natural lightning, on top of the scaling I listed, the burden of proof is on you to show that it’s not the same speed. 2: I don’t think I’m being biased to team avatar at all. In fact, I think I’m being charitable to the Naruto characters. I set Mach 587 as Team Avatar’s speed, when they’re clearly faster than that. Zuko reacts to Ozai’s lighting, moving his arm to redirect it AFTER Ozai fires the blast. Katara does the same with her water and Azula’s lightning. Zuko literally outruns Azula’s lightning. I mean there are numerous examples of them directly outspeeding lightning, so setting their speed AT lightning speed instead of ABOVE it is generous to Naruto. Also, Not having them run into any of the main genin in the forest of death was in order to save the Naruto characters for the final round. Had Team Avatar ran into any of those teams, they would’ve beaten them and taken their scrolls. I explained why in the video. 3: Again, if you haven’t read the comics then I understand why you think that they were only mature in dire circumstances, but that’s proven to be false in the comics that take place immediately after the end of book 3. 4: You’d have to prove Haku was going all out in order to prove Naruto and Sasuke actually scale to him. There’s a TON of evidence for Haku clearly holding back. So, just like you can’t scale the 5 kage to Madara, you can’t scale them to Haku. Also, your scaling chain blatantly doesn’t work. First, kid Naruto isn’t relative to Haku. Second, Kakashi outright blitzed both Naruto and Sasuke simultaneously later on in the series when both of them are stronger and faster. Third, the Kakashi that cut the lightning bolt was ANBU Kakashi, and Kakashi outright states he’s gotten rusty since he left the ANBU. So you can’t even scale that rusty Kakashi, who’s a blitz tier above a faster Naruto and Sasuke, to his ANBU counterpart. Finally, your example of Naruto and Sasuke catching Zabuza off guard has nothing to do with their physical speed. He was stuck to one spot and they tricked him with shuriken, they didn’t out speed him. So, again, there’s no legitimate way to scale them that high. 5: That instance you’re using is filler from the anime. It can’t be used for high ball scaling. As far as Zuko, as I pointed out, he redirected Ozai’s lightning, despite moving his own hand to catch it AFTER Ozai fired the attack. So there’s no aim dodge argument there. In order to debunk it as a lightning speed feat, you’d have to prove it moves slower than natural lightning, but Iroh’s description of it perfectly matching the natural description of lightning is evidence against your claim. In terms of movement speed, I was saying that in reference to TRAVEL speed, specifically the body flicker. Combat speed goes in favor of Team Avatar by quite a bit. Finally, in regards to 5th Gate Lee, there’s a good amount of evidence to suggest that he’s faster than the rest of the Genin. First, Neji isn’t surprised by his speed until he enters 4th gate, meaning he hasn’t seen it before. Second, Lee and Guy both are fairly certain that the 4th Gate was going to be enough to beat Neji. So, since Neji is relative to KC0 Naruto, that puts KC0 Naruto below 5th Gate Lee. There’s also no way to get Sasuke to 5th Gate Lee without giving him a massive Chidori amp that’s not supported by anything. The only evidence we have for Chidori giving a speed boost is base war arc Kakashi being relative to 3rd or 5th Gate Guy (his aura is green, so it’s unclear) and then being relative to 6th Gate Guy while using raikiri. So, at BEST Sasuke could he granted 3 gates worth of a speed amp, but that’s being incredibly generous. And to argue GAARA, who got juggled by weightless base Lee and could barely react to 3rd Gate Lee, is relative to 5th Gate Lee is INSANE. There’s just no way to legitimately get any of them there without being massively generous and using unsubstantiated reasoning.
23:38 sasuke's Genjutsu wouldn't work on Aang, because Another person or spirit insede you can awaken you from Genjutsus, once Aang falls in genjutsu, one of the previous avatar spirits would awake him
This is off topic but it’s something I wanted to ask you for a while do you grant tobirama having bringer of darkness even though he didn’t use it in the manga I personally thinks he has it because he has yin release which hashirama doesn’t plus he’s known for creating multiple techniques personally I don’t think it’s a problem to think he has it or they can both have it which is fine too
Wow you replied fast and thanks I don’t know why people have a problem with tobirama having it but whatever plus why does the 4th data book say hashirama doesn’t have yin release when he’s used it before is it a mistake or a retcon
One factor that im curious about your take on that I dont think you addressed clearly in the vid is that with exception of fire bending, the attack potency of avatar characters is, realistically speaking, situational based on their enviroment while Naruto characters have pretty static AP in comparison. Example being that while Aang can counter Ozais fire blast by yeeting a mountain at it, that level of damage is not possible without a mountain that big to yeet in the first place. Given that force is factored by both mass and acceleration, (the mass of what is being bended is a huge variable factor in avatar characters AP as Im sure we can agree that Aang wasnt going to do just as well against Ozais fire with a pebble in the stead of mountains) In contrast to ninjutsu that is purely chakra dependent and taijutsu that has a fairly static AP in comparison, I think you glossed over the fact that while Avatar characters have higher upper limits to their AP in this scenario, they (especially in the post forest of death stages of the exam) have little to no way to use their max AP while the Naruto characters dont really suffer from that issue. Also as far as reaction speed goes, id like to point out that alot of moves in Avatar are very telegraphed, seeing as most benders need to do very specific movements to bend correctly. I think there is an argument to be made (and this is how i interpreted it) that characters in Avatar are reacting to their opponents aiming their attacks (especially with lightning users) instead of reacting to the attack itself. Its similar to how characters who arent fast enough to dodge bullets seemingly do so by just watching where the gun is aimed and starting their dodge before the bullet is fired. I think taking this into account all of these matchups are much closer. At the very least I doubt that team avatar just brute forces their way with just higher attack scaling the way that this video somewhat implies they do. Either way, i think this is a great vid. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this tho
Thank you so much! So in regards to the first point, yes the AP varies based on their environment, but that’s only in regards to earth and water bending. Air and fire don’t have this limitation. Since the entirety of the prelims and final Chunin exams buildings are made of stone, I don’t see earth bending being limited. As far as reaction speed, this is where the Iroh feat really helps. The fact that he reacted to natural lightning solidifies the idea that anyone who scales to him physically is low end lightning speed. I also think it’s worth noting that Zuko covers several feet in the time it takes Azula’s lighting to cover a similar distance, so even short physical movement speed should be that high. Great questions!
@sageofthickcalves thanks, also now that you've shown the verses to be comparable, a fun idea you could do is Neji vs Ty Lee. Since in essence they fight the same way (targeting pressure points and chakra points) kinda curious now if Ty Lee scales high enough to fight chunin exams Neji since she seems bar minimum, relative to Azula
Off topic but can you do videos on fugaku and shisui I think people underrate them way to much i really like virtues videos on Shisui but disagree with him on fugaku I’m pretty sure I know your thoughts on them from a livestream but I would still like videos on them and we could discuss them more
I personally think Katara wins as she can plant bend, and there are a lot of trees in the arena, plus she can pull water out of the air. Her scaling is higher than Toph’s, as Katara is more so a rival to Azula (The Crystal Catacombs, The Final Agni Kai, and in the comics Katara is constantly restraining Azula when she attacks, and Iroh’s letters to Zuko say that he thinks she’s the most powerful bender besides the Avatar) so with all that I think Katara would beat Toph pretty comfortably since there’s no metal around for Toph to use he secondary sub element
I understand the argument, I just don’t see a way Katara escapes Toph’s earth bending, while Katara wouldn’t have enough water to operate at peak power and the plants aren’t doing anything to Toph’s earth armor
@@sageofthickcalves a weaker Katara could cut through metal albeit with the help of Aang and time though they only used the water in her pouch, and a stronger Katara than that version easily cut through wood with just her sweat alone, and that would be an extra source of water if she really needed. Great video nonetheless of my personal opinion 👍
@@theinktician I’m saying that a stronger Katara than the one who could cut through metal easily cut through thick wood with only her sweat, plus Katara is much stronger than Hama who could easily slice through rock with water gathered from flowers. Katara with water gathered from a tree or two would slice through Toph’s defences, this is further proved since Azula is able to destroy rocks with her fire is unable to overpower Katara’s water (Zuko overpowered her water when they fought in season one so don’t say the water extinguished it.)
My brother, I said Aang has better hand to hand than Sasuke. Also, Kakashi did NOT cut the lightning bolt pre-sharingan. He cut the bolt in the ANBU, according to databook 3, and he didn’t join the ANBU until after Rin’s death.
I may be wrong but couldn’t water benders get water from the air? Not just trees and plants. I mean when taking water benders captive the fire nation had to make sure the air was dry.
i do dissagree with shikamaru vs katara . Shikamaru is the type of fighter that normally takes his time figuring out a winning strategy . Knowing he doesnt want to lose to a girl, and Katara being more passive and vocal, shikamaru would use that to his advantage. she would definetly fight long distance and If she opts to using Water Whips, shikamaru would win. She would have to opt to Water bullet type of attacks, and she would need to be aware water whips would be dangerous to use. If not, there is a possibility he would win. Shikamaru could easily tank a hit of a water whip just to land a shadow possession if he needs to. Its likely katara would have a small amount of water on her and i feel like she would opt to using whips, rather than water bullets. I think there are many ways she could win or lose. You just cant count shikamaru out Unless his opponent scales significantly higher than him to just outright over power him. Even then, shikamaru was clever enough to catch Higher leveled opponents in his shadow possession. Also Telekinesis bending is unique to King Bumi, and that girl from legend of Korra. That is not something Katara can do, and she has never done it before. All benders use hand motions. King Bumi was the person who introduced this, and thats from experience. The other girl was a unique bender aswell. You cant just give katara abilites and say she will win because King bumi or another character did so. If were using ATLA, then we cant just say she can do things that are unique to said characters as a cop out for her to just win.
Yeah I’m just not convinced that Shikamaru would be able to maintain his jutsu while being blitzed by water attacks. I also don’t think Katara would opt for the water whip, since she typically goes with other techniques by the end of book 3. Usually it’s more of a true projectile by that point.
@sageofthickcalves no I agree . But all shikamaru fights he is fighting stronger people and has to out play them rather than over power them . There are variables and we cannot throw certain arguments that are not valid like the telekinesis argument . It makes it feel like you want to give katara the win for the sake of having them win. Your right about the shadow possession being hard to use while shikamaru is moving, he's only displayed feats of that during shippuden . I could double check to see if he can dodge and launch shadows but I don't think so . I'd have to confirm . It really comes down to if katara can immobilize shikamaru and not let him get close range, because that will he shikamau win condition . Either get close enough to beat her in hand to hand combat, or out smart her by utilizing katara passive nature, and talkative attitude to create an opening, or allow katara to use a move on shikamaru that will create an opening to transition into a shadow possession trap . And we can't forget that shikamaru is known to plan hundreds of moves in advance. Katara will not have large volumes of water to blitz shikamaru, and it's fair to say that shikamaru would be able to tank a few hits, if not dodge for a bit before he's outof stamina or injured enough . Shikamaru doesn't have the destructive force to beat katara normally . But with katara little amount of water, she can't overwhelm shikamaru. Like remember the desert with katara ? It wasn't alot, and if she shoots her water as water bullets, the water will go forward and she will have to retract it . She needs to keep enough water beside her for defense, and enough to use for offense . If shikamaru were to get close after she launches her projectiles. She will have to strike shikamaru from behind using the water that she launched. shikamaru will push forward to lock into a close range combat knowing he had the advantage close range. Katara is limited in such an arena, and she will have to strike a fatal blow on shikamaru to win . Katara isn't shown to be able to switch from offense from defense as quickly as toph, and shurikens and projectile items can cause slight delay in her attack when she's limited on water . It's fair to say shikamaru wins close range due to shadow possession attributes and we can't use katara escaping it with telekinesis because that's not apart of her ability . Also katara just doesn't have the large volumes of water to just one shot shikamaru in the arena . I personally think adult shikamaru would win, in the right conditions, but younger shikamaru doesn't have enough AP and flexibility with his shadows to outright win . It'd be more of a process to create a single opening , assuming he had the time to think it thru . It's common knowledge when shikamaru thinks for abit, he comes up with the craziest plans loool.
@@sageofthickcalves everytime Toph reacted to someones attack, they were touching earth and she could read direction by feeling them/their movement. from my observation. and i remember asking this question to myself when i watched episode introducing her, so i paid attention to this.
W vid love avatar rep Water wouldn’t be a problem for Katara she could bend her sweat and the air to water bend Hope the Sasuke retrieval vid comes out
Considering the water will create shadows which shikamaru will def capitalize on, I don’t see katara winning at all. She also has displayed nowhere near the intelligence level of shikamaru. Temari was basically an air bender against shika and considering katara would have limited access to her bending she loses
Shikamaru wouldn’t be able to capitalize on it unless she was using the water whip, which she doesn’t use much by the end of book 3. She typically uses more projectile attacks.
I mean yea but most of book 3 we see katara having significant access to water while in book 2, she uses the water whip a lot whenever she’s carrying that bottle due to not wanting to throw a large projectile and waste it. Katara with a low reserve of water lost to Ty lee too. Shikamaru would comfortably dodge a single whip of water
@@jayanmazumder359 Shikamaru’s speed scaling honestly may not be high enough to react to Katara’s water bro. I was genuinely being generous with this video
Nah I think shikamaru beats katara easily. My basis on this is that they fight where the chunin exam is. Yes no water is there but she would definitely have a pouch like garra to always have access to water and her Jonin would def be smart enough to recommend;however because she has knowledge of shika’s SdwPrls I don’t think katara at this point would be as aggressive despite it being the best approach because she knows if she messes up she’s done. Regarding the point about bending without hands, I would say she is still a genin. There is absolutely no way she would be able to do that yet. That’s really my only plight with the video. Otherwise, AMAZING!!!
rip toriyama
Strange siblings, parental insanity, elemental powers and mental issues. All these elements make….Gaara and Zuko
💀
@@sageofthickcalvesyou forgot to mention that first gate give 5x amp not 4× amp 2:42
@@devilgod4552 that’s never actually stated
@sageofthickcalves Unpopular Opinion: I have two words for you on what challenge should Team Avatar enter....
MORTAL KOMBAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@@sgdklnptihygoh7747 haha nah that would be dope. MK actually scales crazy high too. Who’s your favorite MK character?
It would’ve been cool if katara carried a gourd of water like gaara does with sand cuz they were barely around water this arc.
Bro that would go so hard. Maybe she’d take inspiration from him and do that
Katara does carry water around with her. At least in the comics she usually does and no not just the spirit water. She always has a pouch of water with her. Even so she doesn't need it as long as you ther is grass and trees around she's good. Still the image of Katara with a giant gourd of water is funny af
Do you know how heavy that would be and how slow she’d be tbh same should be applied to gaara😂
@@frankiejones7858 I guess you could argue she could constantly be bending it to make it lighter lmao. It’s definitely mot practical, though
@@frankiejones7858it probably does applied to gaara for the most part, but he barely moves, so 🤷🏾♂️
Yo this concept goes hard! I love it. I'm so stoked about finding your channel. It's great.
Thank you! Glad you’re enjoying the content
Katara can pull water from the trees, the grass, and the atmosphere. She’d also likely be sweating so she can utilize that too.
💯
Imma need a reference for her pulling water from air. Been trying to remember when that happened but I feel it didn't happen
@@ctbcreative Her and aang have pulled water from clouds and its mentioned pulling it from the air is possible in the blood bending episode iirc
The episode "Puppet Master" has a waterbender teach her how to pull and use water anywhere. Plants, animals, etc. "where there is life, there is water"
@@ctbcreative it was during her training with Hama, the blood bender. Hama does this and then Katara outperforms her in bending, so it’s reasonable to assume she can too imo
Do a follow up where Azula, Mai and Ty Lee enter!
Yo that’s 🔥
@@sageofthickcalves Literally ;-)
@@AugmentalGameplay 100%
@@AugmentalGameplayand sexiest
This is probably one of the most exciting video ideas I've ever seen on youtube. Now I'm thinking about Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee taking on the Narutoverse.
12:50 Shikamaru could pull off a weak shadow possession. Water is transparent but would still have a weak shadow. Katara gets thrown off a bit like she’s being bloodbent without full control and she takes the W basically one handed but Shika puts in a good effort trying to bait her into freezing the water and losing all of it.
Sokka would've stomped everyone with no difficulty. He is him.
bro are you ok sokka was never him and is no difficulty is crazy
💀
He's gonna catch Neji's palms.
@@Justchillingitseems neji gonna catch a boomerang to the face ngl
@@evan6338and the space sword. Don’t forget the space sword
You forget that Sasuke had already used all his Chidori's for the day to beat Gara.
I mentioned he would’ve been exhausted from using Chidori, but maybe I could’ve been clearer on that 🤙🏼
@@sageofthickcalves Gotcha might have missed that. Would love for this series to continue. Going as far as we can with ATLA until Aang is no longer relevant loved the video.
@@TruewooperI thought he had 2 shots a day and only used one against Gaara in the arena
@@elhood4060 Your right. I guess I just assumed he would still need the second one to put him down. But you are correct.
Thanks for this thoughtful and well-presented analysis. Cross-verse scaling is especially difficult but quite interesting when done well. Many people resort to saying whoever is faster wins and while that tends to be pretty objective, it is much more interesting to consider all factors. Subscribed.
Thank you so much! This was a fun one to make 🙏🏼
Exam: I think Katara can make an ice mirror remotely to see someone's test. She could also wet somebody's pants and water whip (ice tip) the paper to herself and just write her name on top. Toph is blind and struggles with Paper. I think it's more likely she uses sandbending to literally lift the answers (the actually text itself) left by the lead pencil dust from their paper to her test. She can also blind people in the room with sand and take their sheets. The most likely result: Aang would sneeze blowing all the paper in the room around and suck in someone else's sheet during the confusion.
Those are so fire 🔥
few issues the katara one is mostly fine tho i think chances someone sees it are quite high toph cant do that im pretty sure lol she also like dosent know what letters look like so idk plus again i think someone would def see shed have to blind the person whos test shes taking and all 10 proctors plus she dosent just have sand
Toph can’t sand bend because she can’t feel vibrations through it
@@R1chAsshole she can sand bend. She learns how to
I genuinely think Aang would get caught cheating
Shikamaru: "Why do I always get to fight the girl?"
@@bornassassin2111 💀
The team assembled to save the world gets the dub . Im not surprised except for by their speed feats, that's impressive shit. Team Avatar is comprised of MONSTERS.
YESSIR! 🔥
Nicely done Sage. Yeah Katara's fight with Toph probably does end with Toph taking a win since she's just in her element (literally.) Only win condition i could figure for Katara is if she froze the arena since we know Toph can't see on ice (Ref: Serpent's Pass.) And also Toph can't swim. But there wouldn't be enough water there for it to matter. Either way this plays out pretty much how hou described it. 10/10 scenario, dropping a like to get that Sasuke Retrieval Video. P.S., if you want a hand with the comic scaling, i gotchu
Thank you so much! Definitely hmu about that scaling
This was a fun video hope you make more avatar scaling.
If this gets 300 comments, my next video will be Team Avatar in the place of the Sasuke retrieval team 🙏🏼
Dawg this is an insane idea bro good job!
Thank you so much!
Honestly, this is not something I thought I would ever see. Great video.
Thank you so much!
Toph mopping garra would be a sight to see
I wanted that so bad haha. Just couldn’t reasonably make it happen in canon
@@sageofthickcalves chunin exams were rigged lol. The 4 top prospects that were talked about at the beginning got their most favorable matchups on the "randomized" screen.. A guy brought it up to me once and I've never forgotten. Made me think lol. The betters they talked about at the start of the 3rd exam - they made even more sense with that in mind lol. If only they knew how Rock Lee made Gaara work
@@theinktician never thought about that 🤔
@@theinkticianwho got a favorable matchup?
Toph isnt doint anything to gaara
Loving these crossover. Sad cuz toriyama news
Same bro…same
Okay I will say this. I do not necessarily think they are faster than lightning because they are able to react to it. I think they are reacting to the movements of the person using the lightning. And even with Iroh's feat he is sensing where the lightning will strike and then positions himself for that. It doesn't make him faster than lightning It makes him good at sensing the build up and knowing that lightning will strike the metal thing in the ocean. This all assuming that lightning itself does not move slower in Avatar as these two feats are incompatible with the other feats they display within their own universe.
Zuko runs in front of Azula’s lightning after she’s fired it.
As far as the lightning moving slower than real lightning, you’d have to prove that. Iroh reacts to real lightning, so you’d have to prove that natural lightning in avatar is slower than irl
Imagine if Katara didn’t have her blood bending rule, it would literally just be shikamaru’s shadow possession without the activation condition 😅
🔥💀
She would need a full moon for it, unless she trained to master the ability like Amon did, then she could bend blood without needing the full moon enhancing her chi, and I don't doubt for a second that Katara lacks the physical talent required for it.
@@syedshakaibanwar2698 she blood bends the day after the full moon in season 3, but you could argue it’s because it was so close to a full moon
@@sageofthickcalves she blood bends that same night. The next day is when they encounter the actual guy and she just turns the rain into icicles
@@JWalker444 she blood bends that soldier on the ship the day after the full moon and then uses the ice against the actual murderer the next day
I find a fight between Shikamaru and Katara would be hilarious!! It would literally be like she’s fighting her brother 😂😂
💀💀💀 Sexism exists in every universe 🤣
Loved this video, just a few nitpicks.
I honestly don't know how team avatar, would react to genjutu (thinking of the situation team 7 ran into in the forest) also for Aang vs shino is a bit more complicated since I don't know if Aang is able to sense the vibrations of insects given their weight, especially when he doesn't know about shino and has no reason to focus on sensing insects (which could also naturally just be there)
The last thing is I think you underestimate shikamarus intelligence.
But that's all I can add.
As Said, great video
Thank you so much!
So, I think Aang and Toph would be perfect counters for that type of genjutsu due to their seismic sense. They’d be able to detect where the real enemies were pretty easily. In regards to Aang vs Shino, I genuinely think that even if he can’t sense the bugs with seismic sense, the way Shino fights with them at that point is not going to help him at all. With Zaku, he just surrounded him on all sides and snuck some up into his hands, but Aang can literally just disperse all of them with an omnidirectional wind blast. I also think his high spirituality connects him to nature in a unique way. We know air benders are the only ones who have a 100% bender birth rate, due to their high spirituality, so I see no reason to think it would be weird for him to be able to naturally sense the bugs tbh. As far as Shikamaru, I just don’t see a way for him to handle getting blitzed by that water and still connecting his shadow to Katara. I could be wrong, but I just don’t see it.
Dope video breakdown
Thanks bro!
Sokka destroys everyone in the chunnin exams that’s why he didn’t put him in the video. Good call sage great video!!
Yeah had to give the Naruto universe a chance 🤣 Thanks bro!
Aang’s greatest weakness in combat is his personality. He’s down to do the right combat move when he’s playing, but when it gets real he holds back.
Also, completely forgot about the benders’ ability to react to lightning attacks makes then absurdly fast.
That soda section is hilarious XD
Lol its crazy 😂
Wish these 2 brands could make a cross over. It be soo great.
Your scaling of team Avatar is the Wildest thing I have seen in my life
Naw it was pretty good 👍🏽
Aye bro you’re out here spittin in the comments so if you ever wanna get a collab in lmk 🫡
great vid but one fatal error you might have missed in the case of neji and potentially sasuke is that the byakugan and sharingan to a much lesser extent can see the nervous system of the individual with the byakugan specifically which allows them to see chakra networks in naruto chakra networks are actually apart of the character biology and neji would notice they don’t have one and immediately and rethink his strategy however he can 100% see their pressure points and if he strikes them where their chi is contain neji would effectively learn to chi block mid fight since hes a genius and significantly smarter than the benders fighting while its not guaranteed he could do this it would be an instant win condition since the avatar character are effectively defenseless except maybe aang but toph would have no way to fight and would be helpless aang could in theory bypass with avatar state but he is very limited with it at this age and is extremely vulnerable especially without proper control
In cross verse they would have chakra networks
Okay, so this is wank but ... There is lore within Avatar that the Avatar Spirit, being the soul of the Earth prior to the Korra recton, scales above the Ying-Yang and therefore above anything that has duality. This would actually put Aang above most of the gods in DC or Marvel, let alone Naruto.
Yeah I’ve seen that. I’d argue that the best we can get from Raava scaling is moon + level, due to her being above the moon spirit. But that feels like wank too lmao
@@sageofthickcalves Yeah, Korra retconned a bunch of stuff. The Avatar Spirit was originally just the Soul of the Earth itself, hence their connection to the Spirit World. So he'd scale to at least planet level, due to literally being the planet in human form, and then maybe to above duality with some lore.
And then Korra made it a magic carpet in a giant insult to the lore that came before as well as the mythology that inspired it.
Amazing video I love Avatar and Naruto so it was really interesting to see the battles
to be honest I already knew they were going to go to the finals and win. Great video
Thank you so much! Lmk if you want the follow up video 🫡
Ok 👍👍👍
Hey dude awesome vid, one thing I think u may have missed, u said that team avatar has lightning time reaction speed but not movement speed, but in Zukos fight with Azula Zuko runs in front of Azulas lighting bolt to redirect it, that would put his movement speed to around lightning time as well.
Excellent point 🔥
I was really surprised by the Avatar scaling! I didn’t know they were this strong
They are not
@@LemZ2Real Butthurt Naruto fan
I’ve always wondered this 😮I manifested this video 🤯
I’m glad I was able to make it! 🙏🏼 Team Avatar vs Sasuke Retrieval coming this Friday 🫡
id argue shik would be able to beat katara he could realistically use the same trick on her than he did on kin as her water would cast a shadow i dont think itd be to diffuclut cause the general attack speed of the water isnt that high especially considering itlll be pretty hard for her to bend while dodging the shadow plus then he could just throw kunai at her and since she dosent carry any he wouldnt get hit with any back so shed have to surrender or die i also dount shed have seen his shadow and im not sure she has the mobility to dodge it without water enhancing her movements katara also cant psychically bend
This was interesting, and i hope you make the next one
Looks like it’s happening! 🙏🏼
I think aang using air sending to locate the bugs and protect himself from them. Makes more sense than seismic sense
Fair point for sure
I think this is just one of those instances where Naruto's power scaling is generally lower in the first season because of how realistic the show was before Shippuden hit. It also doesnt help that it is essentially End of show Avatar vs 2nd-3rd Arc Naruto. Say if this was Book 2 Avatar then I think things would be closer in terms of both story and scaling. I do also want to mention that the issue with Gaara vs Sasuke is technically that fight never concluded, and honestly I think Gaara wouldve won assuming they fought to completion. TBH I think Gaara kinda clears. I personally am not of the belief that Toph could bend control of the sand away from Gaara, and Aang even with the Avatar state I dont know how the fight with Shukaku would go. He doesn't have the durability to tank more than maybe 3 attacks from Shukaku (cause the Tailed beasts are bare minimum Mountain level), and I'm unsure if any of what Aang has is capable of doing enough damage to Stop Shukaku outright. Buuuut Id be willing to believe Aang could pull it off.
If we're going Sasuke Retrieval Arc though the power scaling shifts again. I think putting Avatar state Aang at City level is the most accurate in terms of AP and Durability, and as far as Sasuke and Naruto are concerned they are typically scaled City-Mountain level in this arc.
Yeah I’ll probably end up using comics 14-15 year old Team Avatar to make it more interesting tbh
Spirits in the Avatar world usually hold some sort of massive influence and advantage against any non spirit. Gaara's sand is possessed by his mother's spirit and Gaara himself is partly possessed by Shukaku, who likely scales far above most spirits of the Avatar world.
It's remarkably improbable Toph could influence Gaara's sand more than the combined union of Gaara, his mother and Shukaku.
@@RheaMainz Exactly, I hated that some (Death Battle included) argue Toph can bend Gaara's Sand when it can potentially be controlled by up to 3 entities. One of which as you said, 100% scales above the avatar cast.
@@tigerfalcoThat bit annoyed me about Death Battle's depiction the most..!
@@RheaMainz well Shukaku isn’t actually a spirit. He’s wrongfully called that early on, but the tailed beasts aren’t actually spirits.
Katara could also pull water from the grass, like Hanma did.
For sure. Just not sure it would be enough to swing the battle
@@sageofthickcalves I guess but with her/shikamaru's sweat, grass, trees, clouds, leaves, and her canteen; She should be able to overwhelm Shikamaru.
"Because appa is a tank"😂😂
Bro it’s just a fact 🤣 Dude is built different
Love to see another video!
Looks like it’s probably gonna happen!
@@sageofthickcalves I feel like a fun one would also be like, where does Avatar just cap out vs Naruto. Like, as a verse. Includes spirits and stuff. Just to see your take.
@@grantwilliams93 oh bro if you include spirits, Raava and Vaatu can be scaled to outerversal because they’re said to surpass the concepts of reality lmao
Yoooo team avatar in the retrieval arc would be fire also yeah im actually really surprised at avatars scaling but it does make sense
Bro I was shocked by their scaling lmao
Ayo I'd love to see that possible vid!
Next week! 🔥
Great video!
Thank you so much! 🙏🏼
Genjutsu wouldnt work either since Aang has the Avatar state which act as a 6th sense so hell easily break the Genjutsu. Not to mention even without the Avatar state he has spirits within him to make him aware that hes in an illusion which can lead to him being broken free.
SPITTIN 🔥
Oh hell yes, I want to hear how team Avatar do against the sound 5!!
Next week 🔥
If Aang is a fully realized Avatar in this scenario and doesn't have his no-kill rule, he can do some pretty metal shit considering he has all the abilities of Yangchen and Kiyoshi, bro could legit kill his enemies by touching them and freezing their lungs and hearts 💀
Bro is built different. Honestly, people are lucky Team Avatar are peaceful lmao
@@sageofthickcalves Ozai was lucky that Middle Schooler Aang was holding back, bro would have finished Ozai even without Avatar State if he wanted to, he was verbatim the most powerful Airbender on the planet when he was 10 and Ozai's notes in Avatar Extra books show that Aang was holding back against Ozai anyways, it was only Aang's pacifism that caused him to be on the backfoot
Bro this video is epic
Dude thank you so much! I feel good about it
Something to consider in the Toph v Temari fight is that all of her weapons are made of metal.
Yeah someone pointed out that Toph could just crush her fan lmao
@@sageofthickcalves
Can you imagine her face if Toph did that? XD
This whole time she's thought Toph just had really strong earth release and then suddenly her fan is a twisted lump.
@@matthewbreytenbach4483 bro I’d be dead lmao
Great vid
Thanks bro! 🫡
I'd like to see if individual Akatsuki members can take down the Fire Nation from ATLA. Let's also count Zuko and Iroh in the Fire Nation and let's also say that it's during the time of Sozin's Comet. Can any of the Akatsuki individually solo the entire Fire Nation?
All of them can.
@@AxleBoosthidan, white zetsu, and Kakauzu can't in the slightest have a chance against them
Hidan might clear let alone the stronger members
@@EbrahimSJT I'm all for giving Hidan a break, but how would he clear the entire fire nation?
Yo that goes hard
First let's go haven't completed the vid yet but i can tell this'll be a 🔥🔥🔥 vid
🫡🫡🫡
Just commenting for u to post the Sasuke Retrieval Arc on Avatar fighters 🔥🔥 The video was very interesting btw
Thank you so much! 🫡
would you low diff TG in a deadlift competition??
Yeah TG doesn’t deadlift. He got to 315 and stopped
This video was awesome, can't wait for the Sasuke Retrieval one!
One more thing, have you seen El_Eon's videos about Kaido Vs the 5 kage and the madara one?
If so, what's your opinion on them?
Thank you!
I haven’t. I’m only like 150 episodes into One Piece too so I’m not familiar with the scaling of Kaido, unfortunately
Aang should be able to close most gaps in a fight because in the blue spirit episode hes shown running "faster than the wind" (according to a few fire nation soldiers on watch) when trying to get medicide to katara and sokka
Good point
I really love avatar and I’m honestly so glad that avatar characters are getting the respect they deserve
🫡
It was stated that Toph can sense things in the air even if it’s not touching the ground.
You might even be able to argue that Aang could redirect the electricity in the Chidori like the fireball Jutsu.
Regardless of me not exactly agreeing on some of the scaling and Team Avatar having better hand to hand, its still good to hear your opinion on new and interesting What If topics. Great vid and I hope to see Team Avatar in the Sasuke Retrieval Arc
Thank you! 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
One thing to mention is that Lee is insanely fast to the point that kakashi needs the sharingan to see him as he pulls it off to properly look at Lee and sure kakashi is rusty but its more likely unquantifiable rusty as he has statements suggesting he is still stronger than Guy and Asuma plus he was exhausted when using the lightning blade to hit the lightning bolt
Kakashi used the sharingan to see the flow of chakra, not because he couldn’t perceive his speed
@@sageofthickcalves Just re read it your right though to be fair Kakashi still is stunned by Lee's speed and surprised so he can't be that slow
@@Redoren966 yeah Lee is super fast for sure, but I’m not sure he reaches lightning timer speeds
@@sageofthickcalvesyou must be sick lol no one in avatar is stopping 8 gates 😂
@@tylerjames9437 kid Lee only has 5 gates buddy, and that still only gets him at BEST to Mach 500-ish
I usually stop watching when you give your conclusion, but that outro music is 🔥
Just wanna point out that tamari is flying on a fan that has metal on it so I’m gonna assume that toph can sense it. So I don’t think her flying is gonna be a problem for her. Hell if anything she just rips the fab apart sense that’s her only means of using wind style
When is it ever said that her fan was made out of metal?
Yeah bro I didn’t even think of that, but that’s 🔥🔥🔥
But I also put it in this perspective, they are genin, there is no way she knows metal bending yet
but Toph senses stuff with vibrations she feels through her feet so she shouldn’t be able too. that’s why she could barely see sand benders in the desert but is still able to bend sand
@@Blue-Hoe by the end of the series she can sense earth in the air without the need for vibrations
Really good. Now make one that follows the story. I feel like at a certain point Naruto surpasses ATLA in most cases but I could be wrong.
Might have to do this 🤔 I’d have to see how strong Team Avatar eventually becomes by reading all of the comics, but that should be fun
Bro, I hope that Team Avatar vs Sasuke Retrieval happens. That's a fun topic for sure! Also, Here's something you didn't mention that I thought of. Couldn't Aang redirect Sasuke's Chidori? It is lightning and he can redirect lightning.
I find the image of Aang shadow faced with glowing anime eyes staring Sasuke down as he catches his Chidori with one hand and respawns it in his other.
Bro that would be 🔥🔥🔥
Fire combination 🙏
i have to ask what game are you playing where you dress up and fly aang around?
@@tghn100 it was some random PS5 game I found footage of. I think it’s fan made
@@sageofthickcalves ok that might be the the game someone made in dreams i played the beta version a few years back cool
Wait. Is this what power scaling is? Dude. I totally get why people hate this stuff. Wow!
But great job with the math, dude! This took a lot of work. And it’s really high quality
And it turns out I just hate power scaling 😂
Haha you’re all good bro! 🤣 Thank you though 🫡
If you really think about it, Bending is similar to nature releases in Naruto.
Yeah just even better imo
13:00 to be fair, Boomie has the most precise use of bending in the whole series so hard to say if Katara could do it herself (also Korra changed all the bending rules and is not Cannon)
What rules did Korra change that makes this non canon?
@@sageofthickcalves it could be a very long list but let's start with the most agregious.
There are multiple scenes of fire bender flying without the comet boost,
they made water bending straight up magic with the spirit calming ability,
the body movements needed to perform bending and the idea that is based on a specific martial art was completely forgotten (how many water bender have you seen using kicks in AtlA )
I'm not even gonna start on what they did to lighting generation
And lastly they completely changed the lore of bending being learned from imitating animals (Badger Mole, Dragon, Sky Bison, we never learned the water one)
@@capitainemmhenri1299 I don’t think those are examples of retcons or anything, but bending advancing like anything else
@@sageofthickcalves if we can't agree that changing the origin of bending was retconning then we probably won't agree on much on Korra. I'm happy for you if you enjoyed Korra but it's not for me
Anyway still a nice vid👍 have a nice day
@@capitainemmhenri1299 I appreciate that man!
Great idea!
Thank you!
I would love to see the next one
🫡🫡🫡
when 4 years have pasted and they can go in the war arc
Might do a war arc video with team avatar from the comics if their scaling is high enough
@@sageofthickcalves well Madara would probably be the most annoying issue since the actul author noted that there was no way of taking madras down so yeh but it’s intresting
@@Gorartsy where did he say that?
@@sageofthickcalves well not exactly but I got this statement
According to Kishimoto, Madara is not just like any other character introduced in the series. He created Madara as a character with no weaknesses. As one of the antagonists in the story, Kishimoto designed Madara as the antithesis to the protagonists' values, a perfect anti-hero.
So I think this could be evidence to back my statement
@@Gorartsy gotcha
We need another Team with Ty Lee, Mai and Suki
This is super charitable to team avatar. Despite how high you scale team avatar we see many characters clearly under that level fight mid diff fights with them in the last Airbender, also you had them switch with the sound team but they dont encounter any of the same people the sound team did. One of the important parts of the start of the chunin exams was before the exams started and wveryone was in the room together and a lot of the genins interactes with each other. Team avatar would definitelyput a target on their back due to angs goofiness and tophs abrasiveness. In the forest of death the sound team encounters team 7 and team Guy, both of which have teams that (i personally think) would beat them. 2/3 of team guy are enhanced versions of azulas team that came through and bullied team avatar in the show. Neji is literally Ty Lee on steroids with precog and Ten Ten is just Mai with a far greater arsenal. Neji should solo since the power systems are equalized and he is literally taking thier bending away via gentle fist. Also having a hypothetical avatar vs naruto crossoverwithout having any of the avatar characters interact with Naruto at all is kind of wild.
Ok so a few things here
1: Mach 587 is a low ball for team avatar, based on the fact that Zuko actively outran Azula’s lightning. So, I was being charitable to the Naruto characters with that. I was also being charitable by giving all of the top tiers a speed blitz tier above Gaara’s sand defense, when you could argue that the sand could somewhat react to Lee’s speed, meaning it’s not a true blitz tier difference. Had I said 2x instead of 4x there (probably a more accurate calculation), the Naruto characters would’ve maxed out around Mach 260 instead of 530.
2: I only subbed team avatar in for the sound squad once we get to the prelims. I was explicit about that.
3: I think you’re falling into the same character misinterpretation a lot of people are. Team Avatar isn’t nearly as goofy or silly by the end of book 3 as they are early on. So I don’t think they’d put a target on their backs for their silliness, but even if they did, none of the other teams is contending with them.
4: Saying that “many characters under that level fight mid diff fights with them in the last airbender” requires that you prove they’re lower in terms of scaling. Even characters like Jet, who are supposed to be regular humans, should scale to lightning timer levels by their feats. Don’t be fooled into believing the “regular humans” in ATLA are like regular humans in the real world. We see that’s not the case by the way of “regular humans” surviving getting blasted in the face by high velocity stones that would kill people irl.
5: Neji doesn’t scale as high as Azula’s squad. That’s where your misconception comes to a head tbh. Those girls are easily lightning timers as well. Don’t get me wrong, I was SHOCKED, but the scaling is what it is man.
1. I'm not too sure of how fast Mach 587 is but I'm just assuming it's in the realm of lightning. To my knowledgeIroh is the only on screen character to react to and redirect genuine lightning is Iroh, who scales above the azula/zuko/aang level characters. So to assume that a.(just because iroh can redirect actual lightning and bended lightning alike that they are the same speed) and b.(that just because iroh can do this that other lightning benders/redirecters can as well is super charitable. If that same level of charity was granted to the naruto world then kid Kakashi blitzing lightning with his raikiri would be extended to the chidori Sasuke level characters as well.
2. The problem with only subbing after the forest of death is they don't face any kind of adversity in your scenario which doesn't make sense. The sound team came into contact with Lee, Naruto, Neji, and Sasuke. There's no way the avatar team comes into contact with those characters in the FoD and leaves unscathed like in your example.
3. I think the major reasonthey lose a lot of their goofiness is due to them having been hunted for months on end and the impending fire nation threat. I'm not 100% sure when they found out about sozins comet but if it's around the same time I'd wager that'd be quite the mood killer as well. The chunin exams is far less at stake and they'd be able to be less tense and act more like their actual selves which we saw was goofier and happy go lucky.
4. The same way you can creatively scale characters to the top tiers in avatar, you can do the same in naruto. You can scale chunin exams characters to kid Kakashi who blitzed lightning, or Haku who blitzed the guy that blitzed lightning, or scaling sasuke reacting to oro in the forest of death (oro scales to hiruzen, who scales above the 3rd/4th raikage who can scale to Jonin Minato who has far above lightning maybe approaching lightspeed reactions), etc... you can make reaches in both series to scale characters far higher than they should be scaled it just seems like you'reaccepting the avatar scaling but not the naruto scaling.
5. I think neji would scale to those characters, if the top tiers in both shows are lightning timers and neji has not only the best showcase of h2h in both series and precog via byakugan how is he not at the very least comparableto Ty Lee? Gentle fist can even shut down Chakra points while defending since you barely need to make contact and if power systems are equalized he's quite literally capable of taking their bending away.
I love the video idea, just think you should be a little more impartial. I think for most people the eye test says naruto characters>avatar characters in speed and strength, it's perfectly fine if scaling can get avatar characters to naruto levels, but if you use that charitable scaling you should also use the charitable scaling for naruto as well.
@@uchiharainy 1: Iroh certainly does not scale above Aang. He likely scales around where Ozai is, since he was unsure if he could beat him. Since Aang scales to Ozai in base, and above him in the avatar state, we can safely get Aang to lightning timer levels (Mach 587 at the lowest). Since Azula is able to react to and press Aang, anyone who scales to or around Azula should also be in that range. That applies to both Zuko and Katara. Then for Toph, she comfortably scales around the rest of the benders in team avatar as well.
2: That’s a personal issue, not an issue with the video. I inserted them into the series as if they were a random team joining the exams. I specifically stated that they’d likely encounter a random, weaker team, since statistically that’s the likelihood, and that they couldn’t be snuck up on by shinobi or taken down by the animals, for obvious reasons that I explained. The reason I had them replace the sound team after the forest of death is because it was the easiest team to replace, aside from the one that Kabuto was on, and that team had the dude who fought Sasuke. Had I went with that, I would’ve had Sasuke getting mopped by any of the 3 because he couldn’t use chakra and scales below them. It also would make no sense to sub them in for the sound team before that because they’d never engage with team 7 like that. There would be no reason to when they can just easily steal a scroll from an unassuming team using their bending and head straight for the tower.
3: Team Avatar goes through a massive character shift in maturity throughout the series that lasts into the comics, independent of a massive threat looming. I could’ve clarified that during the video I suppose. But no there’s no reason to assume they’d be acting goofy and attracting attention, unless I use their season 1 versions.
4: You absolutely cannot scale any of the kid characters from Naruto part 1 to kid Kakashi or Haku, at least not with any valid substantiation. There’s no scaling line that connects them to those characters in terms of scaling. As far as Oro, he was very clearly holding back and then blitzed Sasuke with his bite the moment he wanted to. The issue you’re going to run into is that you have no legitimate ways to make those scaling chains work, since it would all be based off of dishonest assumptions, while the Avatar scaling chain works flawlessly. There’s no dishonest scaling chains or assumptions made there. It’s all based on things we actually see happen. Naruto Genin from part 1 are most consistently scaled to the level I scaled them, but I honestly kinda high balled them to be honest. This is verifiable when you look at the Sasuke retrieval mission too. Neji, who had no issue reacting to 3rd Gate Lee without his byakugan active and wasn’t even surprised until Lee reached 4th Gate, couldn’t react to Kidomaro’s “lightning speed” arrow. So, those kids are firmly below lightning speed verifiably.
5: None of the kid characters in Naruto part 1 are lightning timers. Not a single one. I will say that, using my high ball scaling to get them to Mach 530, you could argue the byakugan precog would help Neji to react to team avatar, but it wouldn’t matter because they’re still physically faster than him AND all have long range options that he doesn’t have.
I appreciate the discussion and your passion here, but there’s genuinely no way to honestly scale the Naruto Genin to the level of the team avatar characters. The best case would be Lee in the 5th Gate, but even that’s tough.
@@sageofthickcalves You kinda just ignored a lot of my points and replied the same replies as before...
1. There is a clear gap between Iroh/Ozai and Zuko/Azula level fire benders. Azula gets blitzed and her lightning redirected by Iroh, that doesn't happen with characters that are relative to each other. We see all four of them fight during Sozin's comet and clearly Ozai and Iroh's feats are greater than Zuko/ Azula's. Again you're being pretty charitable to avatar characters, you're giving EOS Azula credit for "pressing" an Aang that is relative to Ozai, when that wasn't the same aang that azula fought. azula fought a weaker aang. Also aang is clearly the strongest in his group, its disingenuous to act like toph, zuko, katara etc are in the same echelon as aang. If aang (and iroh imo) is the only person in the world capable of defeating Ozai during Sozin's comet then how does the rest of the group scale to him?
2. Again i dont think you see how you're being biased to team avatar. You're just giving them an easy pass through the part of the exam that would give them the most problems. They're not just skating by Neji, Lee, Naruto and Sasuke.
3. difference in opinions i guess, but i'd assume world ending conflicts would tend to make a group of kids trying to save the world a lot more serious than they'd tend to be normally. i don't really see how you can separate the two because the show didn't, so it seems like you're just inserting your headcannon into it (which is fine, but you can't just make your headcannon seem like its the gospel or something)
4. So the 2 characters that reacted to and tagged Haku and Haku level characters on screen can't scale to haku??? KC Naruto has statements and feats to back up being relative to haku and by extension kid kakashi and you can scale the other genin to him via that, it's the same sort of scaling you used to scale the entirety of avatar to iroh/aang level characters. We see KC react to and tag Haku mid body flicker, which is undeniably at least lightning timer level. Zabuza is relative to kakashi, meaning he is relative to kid kakashi who is a lightning timer (adult kakashi would likely be quite a bit stronger than kid kakashi so by extension so should zabuza), Zabuza has also stated that Haku is Superior to him and Kakashi implied the same as well. base Naruto and sasuke caught zabuza off guard with their shadow clone shadow shuriken combo, even if you don't grant LoW base naruto and sasuke (which you shouldn't) being lightning timers, you can't just act like team avatar is just unreactable to them because they have multiple on screen showings that prove they can catch a lightning timer off guard.
5. theres a vast difference in lightning timers in naruto and lightning timers in ATLA. In naruto i consider Kid Kakashi a lightning timer because he saw lightning in the sky, ran to it and clashed with it before it hitits target. You consider zuko a lightning timer because he saw where azula was pointing her hand to lightning bend and dodged that. These are two completely different caliber feats. The only character in ATLA that has done a similar feat to kakashi is Iroh, he saw genuine lightning, and reacted and redirected it. There's still nothing (to my knowledge) confirming that bended lightning is the same speed as actual lightning anyways. Lightning timers in naruto are absolute lightning timers no contention, the same can't be said about avatar. You even have some reservations about this yourself as you grant that naruto characters may have higher movement speeds than avatar characters (but then you act as if this is reversed when you say that even byakugan precog wouldn't help neji react to the avatar characters because they're physically faster than him).
To the last point if you did grant 5th gate Lee being the level of avatar characters, then Gaara, Sasuke , Naruto, and Neji all outscale them. It is cool to see Avatar characters scaled this high but i think it's not genuine scaling, and if you do consider it genuine scaling then i don't see why you have contention with the same style of scaling being used for pt 1 Naruto. Enjoyed the chat thus far, keep up the vids!
@@uchiharainy
I’ve also enjoyed the conversation! And I appreciate the love for the vids 🙏🏼 As for your points -
1: The scaling I used for Iroh was specifically to show that there’s no reason to believe that the lightning created by characters like Azula and Ozai is slower than natural lightning. Since you’re saying Iroh scales to or around Ozai, the fact that Zuko can react to and redirect Ozai’s lightning, and Azula can react to and keep up with Zuko, it’s 100% fair to put them in the same tier of combat speed. Also, due to the fact that Iroh describes the lightning he bends as essentially the same was we describe the phenomenon of natural lightning, on top of the scaling I listed, the burden of proof is on you to show that it’s not the same speed.
2: I don’t think I’m being biased to team avatar at all. In fact, I think I’m being charitable to the Naruto characters. I set Mach 587 as Team Avatar’s speed, when they’re clearly faster than that. Zuko reacts to Ozai’s lighting, moving his arm to redirect it AFTER Ozai fires the blast. Katara does the same with her water and Azula’s lightning. Zuko literally outruns Azula’s lightning. I mean there are numerous examples of them directly outspeeding lightning, so setting their speed AT lightning speed instead of ABOVE it is generous to Naruto. Also, Not having them run into any of the main genin in the forest of death was in order to save the Naruto characters for the final round. Had Team Avatar ran into any of those teams, they would’ve beaten them and taken their scrolls. I explained why in the video.
3: Again, if you haven’t read the comics then I understand why you think that they were only mature in dire circumstances, but that’s proven to be false in the comics that take place immediately after the end of book 3.
4: You’d have to prove Haku was going all out in order to prove Naruto and Sasuke actually scale to him. There’s a TON of evidence for Haku clearly holding back. So, just like you can’t scale the 5 kage to Madara, you can’t scale them to Haku. Also, your scaling chain blatantly doesn’t work. First, kid Naruto isn’t relative to Haku. Second, Kakashi outright blitzed both Naruto and Sasuke simultaneously later on in the series when both of them are stronger and faster. Third, the Kakashi that cut the lightning bolt was ANBU Kakashi, and Kakashi outright states he’s gotten rusty since he left the ANBU. So you can’t even scale that rusty Kakashi, who’s a blitz tier above a faster Naruto and Sasuke, to his ANBU counterpart. Finally, your example of Naruto and Sasuke catching Zabuza off guard has nothing to do with their physical speed. He was stuck to one spot and they tricked him with shuriken, they didn’t out speed him. So, again, there’s no legitimate way to scale them that high.
5: That instance you’re using is filler from the anime. It can’t be used for high ball scaling. As far as Zuko, as I pointed out, he redirected Ozai’s lightning, despite moving his own hand to catch it AFTER Ozai fired the attack. So there’s no aim dodge argument there. In order to debunk it as a lightning speed feat, you’d have to prove it moves slower than natural lightning, but Iroh’s description of it perfectly matching the natural description of lightning is evidence against your claim. In terms of movement speed, I was saying that in reference to TRAVEL speed, specifically the body flicker. Combat speed goes in favor of Team Avatar by quite a bit. Finally, in regards to 5th Gate Lee, there’s a good amount of evidence to suggest that he’s faster than the rest of the Genin. First, Neji isn’t surprised by his speed until he enters 4th gate, meaning he hasn’t seen it before. Second, Lee and Guy both are fairly certain that the 4th Gate was going to be enough to beat Neji. So, since Neji is relative to KC0 Naruto, that puts KC0 Naruto below 5th Gate Lee. There’s also no way to get Sasuke to 5th Gate Lee without giving him a massive Chidori amp that’s not supported by anything. The only evidence we have for Chidori giving a speed boost is base war arc Kakashi being relative to 3rd or 5th Gate Guy (his aura is green, so it’s unclear) and then being relative to 6th Gate Guy while using raikiri. So, at BEST Sasuke could he granted 3 gates worth of a speed amp, but that’s being incredibly generous. And to argue GAARA, who got juggled by weightless base Lee and could barely react to 3rd Gate Lee, is relative to 5th Gate Lee is INSANE. There’s just no way to legitimately get any of them there without being massively generous and using unsubstantiated reasoning.
I didn't think about until now but Toph is Gaara with Byakugan.😂
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even if sasuke were to land a chidori, aang could grab his hand and throw the lightning upwards like iroh did with azula
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23:38 sasuke's Genjutsu wouldn't work on Aang, because Another person or spirit insede you can awaken you from Genjutsus, once Aang falls in genjutsu, one of the previous avatar spirits would awake him
Yo that’s a great point
I’m commenting, this means I don’t hate puppies 😆 anyways great video, the avatar scaling was sort of shocking, but makes sense 🔥
Haha thanks bro! Yeah I was shocked as well
What is that Avatar game?!
The one where he’s flying around? I’m honestly not sure. The other one is called Avatar The Last Airbender Generations, though
This is off topic but it’s something I wanted to ask you for a while do you grant tobirama having bringer of darkness even though he didn’t use it in the manga I personally thinks he has it because he has yin release which hashirama doesn’t plus he’s known for creating multiple techniques personally I don’t think it’s a problem to think he has it or they can both have it which is fine too
I agree with this take
Wow you replied fast and thanks I don’t know why people have a problem with tobirama having it but whatever plus why does the 4th data book say hashirama doesn’t have yin release when he’s used it before is it a mistake or a retcon
@@Robbieuchiha yeah it was probably just a mistake tbh. And no problem! I get back to comments as quickly as possible 🫡
I’m at the written part. This video is alright some strawberry gelato gas man
Haha I appreciate you bro 🙏🏼
What about team avatar vs war arc heroes.
Like Aang, katara and toph vs war arc kakashi, Naruto and Sasuke.
We’d have to use adult versions probably. This version of Team Avatar gets slammed because those Naruto characters are FTL
Let's see a part 2
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One factor that im curious about your take on that I dont think you addressed clearly in the vid is that with exception of fire bending, the attack potency of avatar characters is, realistically speaking, situational based on their enviroment while Naruto characters have pretty static AP in comparison.
Example being that while Aang can counter Ozais fire blast by yeeting a mountain at it, that level of damage is not possible without a mountain that big to yeet in the first place. Given that force is factored by both mass and acceleration, (the mass of what is being bended is a huge variable factor in avatar characters AP as Im sure we can agree that Aang wasnt going to do just as well against Ozais fire with a pebble in the stead of mountains) In contrast to ninjutsu that is purely chakra dependent and taijutsu that has a fairly static AP in comparison, I think you glossed over the fact that while Avatar characters have higher upper limits to their AP in this scenario, they (especially in the post forest of death stages of the exam) have little to no way to use their max AP while the Naruto characters dont really suffer from that issue.
Also as far as reaction speed goes, id like to point out that alot of moves in Avatar are very telegraphed, seeing as most benders need to do very specific movements to bend correctly. I think there is an argument to be made (and this is how i interpreted it) that characters in Avatar are reacting to their opponents aiming their attacks (especially with lightning users) instead of reacting to the attack itself. Its similar to how characters who arent fast enough to dodge bullets seemingly do so by just watching where the gun is aimed and starting their dodge before the bullet is fired.
I think taking this into account all of these matchups are much closer. At the very least I doubt that team avatar just brute forces their way with just higher attack scaling the way that this video somewhat implies they do.
Either way, i think this is a great vid. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this tho
Thank you so much!
So in regards to the first point, yes the AP varies based on their environment, but that’s only in regards to earth and water bending. Air and fire don’t have this limitation. Since the entirety of the prelims and final Chunin exams buildings are made of stone, I don’t see earth bending being limited.
As far as reaction speed, this is where the Iroh feat really helps. The fact that he reacted to natural lightning solidifies the idea that anyone who scales to him physically is low end lightning speed. I also think it’s worth noting that Zuko covers several feet in the time it takes Azula’s lighting to cover a similar distance, so even short physical movement speed should be that high.
Great questions!
@sageofthickcalves thanks, also now that you've shown the verses to be comparable, a fun idea you could do is Neji vs Ty Lee. Since in essence they fight the same way (targeting pressure points and chakra points) kinda curious now if Ty Lee scales high enough to fight chunin exams Neji since she seems bar minimum, relative to Azula
@@totallynotquizzy yeah that sounds like a fun video!
Off topic but can you do videos on fugaku and shisui I think people underrate them way to much i really like virtues videos on Shisui but disagree with him on fugaku I’m pretty sure I know your thoughts on them from a livestream but I would still like videos on them and we could discuss them more
For sure!
Definitely wanted to know how far soka would make it but I’m guessing he’d get stomped first fight
I mean with his swordsmanship and scaling he might be able to take down some low level genin, but otherwise he’s getting folded.
If team avatar was in Naruto, the series would get some actually well written female characters.
I mean I think Tsunade is well written. The rest are pretty lacking, though
I personally think Katara wins as she can plant bend, and there are a lot of trees in the arena, plus she can pull water out of the air. Her scaling is higher than Toph’s, as Katara is more so a rival to Azula (The Crystal Catacombs, The Final Agni Kai, and in the comics Katara is constantly restraining Azula when she attacks, and Iroh’s letters to Zuko say that he thinks she’s the most powerful bender besides the Avatar) so with all that I think Katara would beat Toph pretty comfortably since there’s no metal around for Toph to use he secondary sub element
I understand the argument, I just don’t see a way Katara escapes Toph’s earth bending, while Katara wouldn’t have enough water to operate at peak power and the plants aren’t doing anything to Toph’s earth armor
@@sageofthickcalves a weaker Katara could cut through metal albeit with the help of Aang and time though they only used the water in her pouch, and a stronger Katara than that version easily cut through wood with just her sweat alone, and that would be an extra source of water if she really needed. Great video nonetheless of my personal opinion 👍
@@Bri-rx1db thank you!
@@Bri-rx1db You are assuming that the wood was the same density as a steel prisoner hold
@@theinktician I’m saying that a stronger Katara than the one who could cut through metal easily cut through thick wood with only her sweat, plus Katara is much stronger than Hama who could easily slice through rock with water gathered from flowers. Katara with water gathered from a tree or two would slice through Toph’s defences, this is further proved since Azula is able to destroy rocks with her fire is unable to overpower Katara’s water (Zuko overpowered her water when they fought in season one so don’t say the water extinguished it.)
Saying anng has better combat feats than Sasuke is crazy. Also kid kakashi cut Lightning on the return stroke pre sharingan with his chidori soooo
My brother, I said Aang has better hand to hand than Sasuke. Also, Kakashi did NOT cut the lightning bolt pre-sharingan. He cut the bolt in the ANBU, according to databook 3, and he didn’t join the ANBU until after Rin’s death.
I could be misremembering but wasn't there a pool of water in the arena?
Please do that Video!
Next week! 🔥
I may be wrong but couldn’t water benders get water from the air? Not just trees and plants. I mean when taking water benders captive the fire nation had to make sure the air was dry.
Yeah they can if there’s enough moisture in the air, but that would be hard to prove for this
i do dissagree with shikamaru vs katara .
Shikamaru is the type of fighter that normally takes his time figuring out a winning strategy . Knowing he doesnt want to lose to a girl, and Katara being more passive and vocal, shikamaru would use that to his advantage. she would definetly fight long distance and If she opts to using Water Whips, shikamaru would win. She would have to opt to Water bullet type of attacks, and she would need to be aware water whips would be dangerous to use. If not, there is a possibility he would win. Shikamaru could easily tank a hit of a water whip just to land a shadow possession if he needs to.
Its likely katara would have a small amount of water on her and i feel like she would opt to using whips, rather than water bullets.
I think there are many ways she could win or lose. You just cant count shikamaru out Unless his opponent scales significantly higher than him to just outright over power him. Even then, shikamaru was clever enough to catch Higher leveled opponents in his shadow possession.
Also Telekinesis bending is unique to King Bumi, and that girl from legend of Korra. That is not something Katara can do, and she has never done it before. All benders use hand motions. King Bumi was the person who introduced this, and thats from experience. The other girl was a unique bender aswell. You cant just give katara abilites and say she will win because King bumi or another character did so. If were using ATLA, then we cant just say she can do things that are unique to said characters as a cop out for her to just win.
Interesting
Yeah I’m just not convinced that Shikamaru would be able to maintain his jutsu while being blitzed by water attacks. I also don’t think Katara would opt for the water whip, since she typically goes with other techniques by the end of book 3. Usually it’s more of a true projectile by that point.
@sageofthickcalves no I agree . But all shikamaru fights he is fighting stronger people and has to out play them rather than over power them .
There are variables and we cannot throw certain arguments that are not valid like the telekinesis argument . It makes it feel like you want to give katara the win for the sake of having them win.
Your right about the shadow possession being hard to use while shikamaru is moving, he's only displayed feats of that during shippuden . I could double check to see if he can dodge and launch shadows but I don't think so . I'd have to confirm .
It really comes down to if katara can immobilize shikamaru and not let him get close range, because that will he shikamau win condition .
Either get close enough to beat her in hand to hand combat, or out smart her by utilizing katara passive nature, and talkative attitude to create an opening, or allow katara to use a move on shikamaru that will create an opening to transition into a shadow possession trap .
And we can't forget that shikamaru is known to plan hundreds of moves in advance.
Katara will not have large volumes of water to blitz shikamaru, and it's fair to say that shikamaru would be able to tank a few hits, if not dodge for a bit before he's outof stamina or injured enough . Shikamaru doesn't have the destructive force to beat katara normally . But with katara little amount of water, she can't overwhelm shikamaru. Like remember the desert with katara ? It wasn't alot, and if she shoots her water as water bullets, the water will go forward and she will have to retract it . She needs to keep enough water beside her for defense, and enough to use for offense .
If shikamaru were to get close after she launches her projectiles. She will have to strike shikamaru from behind using the water that she launched. shikamaru will push forward to lock into a close range combat knowing he had the advantage close range.
Katara is limited in such an arena, and she will have to strike a fatal blow on shikamaru to win .
Katara isn't shown to be able to switch from offense from defense as quickly as toph, and shurikens and projectile items can cause slight delay in her attack when she's limited on water .
It's fair to say shikamaru wins close range due to shadow possession attributes and we can't use katara escaping it with telekinesis because that's not apart of her ability . Also katara just doesn't have the large volumes of water to just one shot shikamaru in the arena .
I personally think adult shikamaru would win, in the right conditions, but younger shikamaru doesn't have enough AP and flexibility with his shadows to outright win . It'd be more of a process to create a single opening , assuming he had the time to think it thru .
It's common knowledge when shikamaru thinks for abit, he comes up with the craziest plans loool.
@@Hyushi_sama solid breakdown for sure
Shikamaru is basically Katara's brother (Sokka). She'd try to bait/taunt him *b/c* of Shikamaru's unwillingness to fight girls.
this is first time i hear about ability to sense element without touching....
I mean Aang blows up a massive boulder flying at him in the air with earth bending without ever touching it or the ground
@@sageofthickcalves everytime Toph reacted to someones attack, they were touching earth and she could read direction by feeling them/their movement. from my observation. and i remember asking this question to myself when i watched episode introducing her, so i paid attention to this.
W vid love avatar rep
Water wouldn’t be a problem for Katara she could bend her sweat and the air to water bend
Hope the Sasuke retrieval vid comes out
W 🫡
Considering the water will create shadows which shikamaru will def capitalize on, I don’t see katara winning at all. She also has displayed nowhere near the intelligence level of shikamaru. Temari was basically an air bender against shika and considering katara would have limited access to her bending she loses
Shikamaru wouldn’t be able to capitalize on it unless she was using the water whip, which she doesn’t use much by the end of book 3. She typically uses more projectile attacks.
I mean yea but most of book 3 we see katara having significant access to water while in book 2, she uses the water whip a lot whenever she’s carrying that bottle due to not wanting to throw a large projectile and waste it. Katara with a low reserve of water lost to Ty lee too. Shikamaru would comfortably dodge a single whip of water
@@jayanmazumder359 Shikamaru’s speed scaling honestly may not be high enough to react to Katara’s water bro. I was genuinely being generous with this video
@@sageofthickcalves …u win this one G
Nah I think shikamaru beats katara easily. My basis on this is that they fight where the chunin exam is. Yes no water is there but she would definitely have a pouch like garra to always have access to water and her Jonin would def be smart enough to recommend;however because she has knowledge of shika’s SdwPrls I don’t think katara at this point would be as aggressive despite it being the best approach because she knows if she messes up she’s done. Regarding the point about bending without hands, I would say she is still a genin. There is absolutely no way she would be able to do that yet. That’s really my only plight with the video. Otherwise, AMAZING!!!
Thank you so much! 🙏🏼