Thanks very much, great work! It relieves all the fear of degradation of this most valuable part of an EV. I believe the Ioniq Classic didn't even have a battery heating and cooling system to reduce the amount of degradation while maintaining good DC charging currents - so there is a lot of hope for modern EVs durability for 10 years easiely. It would be interesting to see how the e-Niro statistics look like, because the e-Niro and I believe also the e-Soul has a proper battery heating/cooling system.
It actually has both a heating system (heat pads on each cell/module) and air cooling. You can hear the fan in the back coming on after one or more DC fast charging sessions.
@@philipk89Thanks for the correction, then I may have mixed it up with a Nissan Leaf? Anyway one of the first serious EVs that sold well didn't have battery pre-conditioning and from what I had heard this is very stressful for the battery, causing it to degrade much faster.
Thanks for all of this great information. My Ioniq 28 has just clocked over 100,000 km’s. The battery appears ok. Rarely DC charge. I live in rural Australia, and drive on dirt roads. Great car!
I did submit data from my Ioniq (Bribie1) which appeared to be badly degraded at around 23% at the time. It looks like the data was excluded as an outlier. I have since managed to establish that the problem was not degradation but was actually due to a large imbalance in the battery BMS. This was corrected by switching the 7kw charger to 2kw for a number of charge cycles. I will submit new data when I have the opportunity to have a sufficiently long run.
I've seen a few anecdotes of Teslas going 600k km before the battery is too bad. Given the Ioniq's battery high cobalt, like a triple size phev battery, I'm not worried about my Ioniq for a split second. The Ioniq is one of the best choices, if not the best choice, as a used local city runabout car. Plus it handles and rides brilliantly. The only issue is the front wheel spin easily, which can be an issue in wet, ice, and snow conditions. Plus the threat of repair issues should one get into an accident.
I wish I'd found out about this testing before I sold my 2018 Ioniq(AU Spec), bought in early 2019. I'd have loved to contributed to your study but alas my car which had about 88,000km when I sold it is no longer mine. Good to see though the battery degradation is very good aligns with Bjorns testing he's done as well with the "Efficiency King" in the past. I'll notify the owner of my former Ioniq though about this in case he wants to contribute. My car when I had it I would say 95-97% of it's charging was on Level 1 charger at home the other was mostly Level 3 with a tiny bit of level 2 charging. My new EV though is still a Hyundai product, the new 2024 Kona EV top spec(AU version).
I have to say that 200k km should not be a stretch for any reasonably maintained car, many poor people are stuck with them and I honestly expect that any self-respecting car manufacturer can hit 400k. Many people in the west clearly have no idea what abuse happens when these cars have depreciated to the point of export to poor countries. They'll run to 500k+ with scrap heap engineering and emissions that will blow your mind.
This is very interesting & encouraging. One thought I have though is that all these calculations are very dependent on the value you use for efficiency. How do you know this is accurate?
Because i trust this particular car on its readings. That trust is based on lots of OBD reading (20,000km of data recorded over time) matching the car reading and being well aligned with wall to car energy charged (after overheads). Even if the car was biased it s likely they would have the same bias and you could probably compare them to one another.
Results seem to be similar to my 2018 LEAF which is 53k miles and 88% capacity (actually 32.5 kWh usable). I would imagine that the range on the Ioniq 28 (2018) would be similar to the LEAF in most cases.
@@ashton9699 Ioniq 28 with 90% degradation = 25kWh x 5 miles per kWh (minimum) efficiency = 125 miles range. LEAF with 88% degradation = 31.5kWh x 4 miles per kWh (minimum) = 126 miles range. I've noticed that the LEAF when new appeared to have closer to 38kWh capacity when new however, which helps to make up for the lower efficiency in the motor. Also the GOM in the Ioniq is reported to be accurate, and I've seen a lot of used Ioniqs from 2017-2018 with 120-130 miles range indicated when charged to 100%, or extrapolated from a lower charge percentage.
@@decimal1815 Range is not an accurate measure of capacity. In addition, the 40 and 62 kWh second gen LEAF packs even though they are much more resilient to heat than the first gen, have been having a lot of trouble with weak cells in the cold. Take a look in LEAF groups and subreddit and you can see the mass number of packs getting replaced under warranty for this, Ioniq does not have this widespread problem either. And this is as a 40 kWh LEAF owner. Yes, my pack was also replaced under warranty, at only 33,000km, for the same issue.
@@ashton9699 yes problems with overheating battery are well known and I wouldn't use the LEAF for road trips. This article was referring to degradation and the Ioniq is often quoted by some to have zero degradation, which is clearly not the case. The degradation in the LEAF pack is also not as bad as some might imagine. I was pleasantly surprised by the 32.5 kWh in my 6 year old, £8k used LEAF. Battery health and internal resistance are both good, and so long as I avoid multiple DC charges per journey it should be good for years. The Ioniq is a great EV but the range on a single charge in the 28 is not much better. The advantage of the Ioniq is that you will be able to rapid charge multiple times per journey without worrying too much. But it's more expensive... and had its own issues according to the forums.
My two questions: If battery are not noticeably degrading then what would be at all a reason behind selling EVs by owners ? Why producers warn in instruction owners not to charge above 80% an discharge below 20% which means that user from new condition is warned that to avoid degradation is required to use only 60% capacity ?
I had a Ioniq 28, bought in 2017 and sold one month ago at 156000km. I didn't notice any major degradation, but I had the motor bearing problem at 95000km, which was replaced under warranty. I sent some reductor oil at 120000km to a lab and they didn't detect anything wrong with it (the color was very dark, but they didn't detect anything which would lead to a reductor degradation). I charged the car using fast chargers around 10% of the charges and the 90 other percents were charged at 6.6kW. I charged the car at 90% during winter and 80% during summer every day (and even twice a day in winter). I charged the car at 100% when I had to do a big trip, but I program the charger to end the charge half an hour before the trip.
Fair questions. Well this is far from saying zero degradation here. So there is still a benefit in taking care of the battery within reason (which i dont think excludes charging to 100% overnight if using the next day) 0:11 . Battery chemistry will matter too, eg LFP cars are meant to tolerate more remaining longer at 100%. As for selling EVs, not sure what you mean, people change cars because of leasing deals coming to an end, wanting latest technology. etc...but from surveys i see ev drivers tend to stick with evs once they have given it a go.
@@evdabbler Fair answer😉 Anyway I think I can give better than you expalnation. It is for people who push this agenda need now to exraggate battery life as function on volume of single charging because nor electricity and no mega powerfull grid for fast chargers are available And changing it may take long time (if it will be possible at all).
4 หลายเดือนก่อน +1
According to my calculations based on your tables, I conclude that 100% means 26.5 kWh of capacity, not 28 kWh ? 🤔
It would be interesting to see the capacity vs the age of the car. Batteries seem to degrade more as a function of age than distance travelled (number of battery cycles).
Thanks for this great video! At my knowledge, the BMS of the Ioniq 28 gives an estimation of the battery SOH. This information is readable through the OBD2 port. Anyone knows how the SOH is calculated by the car ? And how it is related to remaining useable capacity ? I have a 4 year old Ioniq 38 kWh (a little bit different from Ioniq 28 kWh) and my car still shows 100% SOH, which can't be true.
I dont think people have worked out the SOH algorithm. Our 4 year old 38 still has 100% SOH after 76000km When I did a consumption test at 55000km I got 36.84kWh from a 293km drive using 94% of the battery. 1.8% degredation from what is apparently 37.5kWh usable when new. I'll be doing another when I get the time as our second bomby car finally carked recently
From what ive read, and this is only hearsay, is that with you having the bigger battery and now the same with all Hyhundi and KIA EV'S is that it the BMS will display 100% untill it drops below a certain percentage, possibly 85%. I doubt that even after 1 year that the battery hasn't degraded even by a small small amount.
User47 here 😅 When you need more data from my car, it is very easy for me. I drive 1300km a Week on average. ~500km with charging at Home ~780km with DC charging on the Weekend Short Story of my Car: The First owner (2017 - June 2023) only Charge at Home, only drive in City. I bought the Car in June 2023 with 160000km on the Odometer. Today my odometer says 236xxxkm, yes i drive 9000km since the test 😅 Many people dont believe me that i drive that much with that „little“ range
For people how ask about Service. My Engine needed new bearings at 175000km. Cost 7€/bearing and 6 Hours of work (i did it myself). And the car is driving again. A 3 way valve at 230000km cost used 90€ imported from Norway (new by Hyundai 788€). 2 Cabin Filters (20€ each). AC Coolend Service (150€ at a local Gas Station) Hyundai has seen the car in 2022 the last time. Yes i bought a EV with a leaky Service history, no Problem for me. Today (236000km) my Cabin blower begins to squeaks at high rpm (a new Cost 180€ at third Party market)
@@Itsuki_Takeuchi May I ask where you bought the bearings? I've heard it's hard to get (at least from Hyundai). My engine still works fine, but just in case ;-)
@@bernhardbretterbauer7894 the Bearings from Hyundai are Spezial made for Hyundai. You cant get them from Hyundai. You only can buy the complete Engine (in Germany 13k€) You need 1mm spacers for the 1mm smaller bearing. Then you can buy the new one online everywhere, it is industrial Standard. I use the Brand FAG, it is in for 60k kilometers and no Noise or Vibration
Thanks very much, great work!
It relieves all the fear of degradation of this most valuable part of an EV.
I believe the Ioniq Classic didn't even have a battery heating and cooling system to reduce the amount of degradation while maintaining good DC charging currents - so there is a lot of hope for modern EVs durability for 10 years easiely.
It would be interesting to see how the e-Niro statistics look like, because the e-Niro and I believe also the e-Soul has a proper battery heating/cooling system.
It actually has both a heating system (heat pads on each cell/module) and air cooling. You can hear the fan in the back coming on after one or more DC fast charging sessions.
@@philipk89Thanks for the correction, then I may have mixed it up with a Nissan Leaf? Anyway one of the first serious EVs that sold well didn't have battery pre-conditioning and from what I had heard this is very stressful for the battery, causing it to degrade much faster.
@@n1vca Yes, the Nissan Leaf had many degradation problems because it didn't have proper battery cooling.
Thanks for all of this great information. My Ioniq 28 has just clocked over 100,000 km’s. The battery appears ok. Rarely DC charge. I live in rural Australia, and drive on dirt roads. Great car!
Very good to hear!
I did submit data from my Ioniq (Bribie1) which appeared to be badly degraded at around 23% at the time. It looks like the data was excluded as an outlier. I have since managed to establish that the problem was not degradation but was actually due to a large imbalance in the battery BMS. This was corrected by switching the 7kw charger to 2kw for a number of charge cycles. I will submit new data when I have the opportunity to have a sufficiently long run.
@@brianoneill3551 Thanks. I can see you submitted a day after the video came out so it has not been included in the sample yet.
@@evdabbler QK - Thanks!
fantastic video, really good data and extremely useful to someone like myself who's looking to purchase one of these 2nd hand soon.
Glad it was helpful!
I've seen a few anecdotes of Teslas going 600k km before the battery is too bad.
Given the Ioniq's battery high cobalt, like a triple size phev battery, I'm not worried about my Ioniq for a split second.
The Ioniq is one of the best choices, if not the best choice, as a used local city runabout car.
Plus it handles and rides brilliantly. The only issue is the front wheel spin easily, which can be an issue in wet, ice, and snow conditions.
Plus the threat of repair issues should one get into an accident.
@@Antiorganizer indeed on potential for front wheel spin.
Thank you, I'm looking at second-hand EVs in Au as they are great value frequently 50% less than new at 3 years old
Good luck. In the UK you now get incredible value for money on these now
Very good video, and you sound exactly like Roman Grosjean !!
@@peterjones6322 thanks... I guess?!
I wish I'd found out about this testing before I sold my 2018 Ioniq(AU Spec), bought in early 2019. I'd have loved to contributed to your study but alas my car which had about 88,000km when I sold it is no longer mine. Good to see though the battery degradation is very good aligns with Bjorns testing he's done as well with the "Efficiency King" in the past. I'll notify the owner of my former Ioniq though about this in case he wants to contribute. My car when I had it I would say 95-97% of it's charging was on Level 1 charger at home the other was mostly Level 3 with a tiny bit of level 2 charging.
My new EV though is still a Hyundai product, the new 2024 Kona EV top spec(AU version).
@@TassieEV Kona EV, good choice :-)
I have to say that 200k km should not be a stretch for any reasonably maintained car, many poor people are stuck with them and I honestly expect that any self-respecting car manufacturer can hit 400k. Many people in the west clearly have no idea what abuse happens when these cars have depreciated to the point of export to poor countries. They'll run to 500k+ with scrap heap engineering and emissions that will blow your mind.
Very fair comment. I did say "discuss" on that bit... one can hope that very long term keeping gets easier with an EV than ICE in fact
Amazing work. Thanks for all the work. Handed the car to my son. Lets see if we can contribute 160tkm 2017.
Yes please!
Thanks a lot for this, very interesting! Could you insert the calendar degradation ? I think it’s most important for low milage cars!
@@patrickcrombez150 i didnt do it this time as we realky have 3 discrete years as input. Will double check nonetheless
Thank you ! tip : a part the battery, now is important to ask for reductor/motor bearing issues or not, oil reductor change frequency... ?
I see what you're saying... will think about it.
Merci pour cette excellente recherche
Avec plaisir
Great video and information 👍😎
@@jasonallatt5410 thank you!
This is very interesting & encouraging. One thought I have though is that all these calculations are very dependent on the value you use for efficiency. How do you know this is accurate?
Because i trust this particular car on its readings. That trust is based on lots of OBD reading (20,000km of data recorded over time) matching the car reading and being well aligned with wall to car energy charged (after overheads). Even if the car was biased it s likely they would have the same bias and you could probably compare them to one another.
Hi, great work, Can you make more generic survey or just for new ioniq 5/6? Would be nice to see how the battery chemistry evolves.
@@larirantanen1184 Thank you. It's a different, bigger undertaking altogether. Let me take that away
Results seem to be similar to my 2018 LEAF which is 53k miles and 88% capacity (actually 32.5 kWh usable). I would imagine that the range on the Ioniq 28 (2018) would be similar to the LEAF in most cases.
It's not even close. Ioniq 28 battery is far more robust than any LEAF pack.
@@ashton9699 Ioniq 28 with 90% degradation = 25kWh x 5 miles per kWh (minimum) efficiency = 125 miles range. LEAF with 88%
degradation = 31.5kWh x 4 miles per kWh (minimum) = 126 miles range. I've noticed that the LEAF when new appeared to have closer to 38kWh capacity when new however, which helps to make up for the lower efficiency in the motor. Also the GOM in the Ioniq is reported to be accurate, and I've seen a lot of used Ioniqs from 2017-2018 with 120-130 miles range indicated when charged to 100%, or extrapolated from a lower charge percentage.
@@decimal1815 Range is not an accurate measure of capacity. In addition, the 40 and 62 kWh second gen LEAF packs even though they are much more resilient to heat than the first gen, have been having a lot of trouble with weak cells in the cold.
Take a look in LEAF groups and subreddit and you can see the mass number of packs getting replaced under warranty for this, Ioniq does not have this widespread problem either.
And this is as a 40 kWh LEAF owner. Yes, my pack was also replaced under warranty, at only 33,000km, for the same issue.
@@ashton9699 yes problems with overheating battery are well known and I wouldn't use the LEAF for road trips. This article was referring to degradation and the Ioniq is often quoted by some to have zero degradation, which is clearly not the case. The degradation in the LEAF pack is also not as bad as some might imagine. I was pleasantly surprised by the 32.5 kWh in my 6 year old, £8k used LEAF. Battery health and internal resistance are both good, and so long as I avoid multiple DC charges per journey it should be good for years. The Ioniq is a great EV but the range on a single charge in the 28 is not much better. The advantage of the Ioniq is that you will be able to rapid charge multiple times per journey without worrying too much. But it's more expensive... and had its own issues according to the forums.
My two questions: If battery are not noticeably degrading then what would be at all a reason behind selling EVs by owners ? Why producers warn in instruction owners not to charge above 80% an discharge below 20% which means that user from new condition is warned that to avoid degradation is required to use only 60% capacity ?
I had a Ioniq 28, bought in 2017 and sold one month ago at 156000km. I didn't notice any major degradation, but I had the motor bearing problem at 95000km, which was replaced under warranty. I sent some reductor oil at 120000km to a lab and they didn't detect anything wrong with it (the color was very dark, but they didn't detect anything which would lead to a reductor degradation).
I charged the car using fast chargers around 10% of the charges and the 90 other percents were charged at 6.6kW. I charged the car at 90% during winter and 80% during summer every day (and even twice a day in winter). I charged the car at 100% when I had to do a big trip, but I program the charger to end the charge half an hour before the trip.
Fair questions. Well this is far from saying zero degradation here. So there is still a benefit in taking care of the battery within reason (which i dont think excludes charging to 100% overnight if using the next day) 0:11 . Battery chemistry will matter too, eg LFP cars are meant to tolerate more remaining longer at 100%. As for selling EVs, not sure what you mean, people change cars because of leasing deals coming to an end, wanting latest technology. etc...but from surveys i see ev drivers tend to stick with evs once they have given it a go.
@@evdabbler Fair answer😉 Anyway I think I can give better than you expalnation. It is for people who push this agenda need now to exraggate battery life as function on volume of single charging because nor electricity and no mega powerfull grid for fast chargers are available And changing it may take long time (if it will be possible at all).
According to my calculations based on your tables, I conclude that 100% means 26.5 kWh of capacity, not 28 kWh ? 🤔
That's what I say in the video...
It would be interesting to see the capacity vs the age of the car. Batteries seem to degrade more as a function of age than distance travelled (number of battery cycles).
There is limited evidence (but also little difference of years) on this sample
Are we able to browse the data ourselves please?
I will look into it. Thanks
Thanks for this great video! At my knowledge, the BMS of the Ioniq 28 gives an estimation of the battery SOH. This information is readable through the OBD2 port. Anyone knows how the SOH is calculated by the car ? And how it is related to remaining useable capacity ? I have a 4 year old Ioniq 38 kWh (a little bit different from Ioniq 28 kWh) and my car still shows 100% SOH, which can't be true.
I dont think people have worked out the SOH algorithm. Our 4 year old 38 still has 100% SOH after 76000km
When I did a consumption test at 55000km I got 36.84kWh from a 293km drive using 94% of the battery. 1.8% degredation from what is apparently 37.5kWh usable when new. I'll be doing another when I get the time as our second bomby car finally carked recently
Thank you and agree soh is not a very helpful reading
From what ive read, and this is only hearsay, is that with you having the bigger battery and now the same with all Hyhundi and KIA EV'S is that it the BMS will display 100% untill it drops below a certain percentage, possibly 85%.
I doubt that even after 1 year that the battery hasn't degraded even by a small small amount.
@@TH3G4M3SM4N my Ioniq is from 2017 and the odometer Shows 236000km. The SOH is still 100% read with OBD2
User47 here 😅
When you need more data from my car, it is very easy for me. I drive 1300km a Week on average.
~500km with charging at Home
~780km with DC charging on the Weekend
Short Story of my Car:
The First owner (2017 - June 2023) only Charge at Home, only drive in City. I bought the Car in June 2023 with 160000km on the Odometer. Today my odometer says 236xxxkm, yes i drive 9000km since the test 😅
Many people dont believe me that i drive that much with that „little“ range
For people how ask about Service.
My Engine needed new bearings at 175000km. Cost 7€/bearing and 6 Hours of work (i did it myself). And the car is driving again. A 3 way valve at 230000km cost used 90€ imported from Norway (new by Hyundai 788€). 2 Cabin Filters (20€ each). AC Coolend Service (150€ at a local Gas Station) Hyundai has seen the car in 2022 the last time. Yes i bought a EV with a leaky Service history, no Problem for me. Today (236000km) my Cabin blower begins to squeaks at high rpm (a new Cost 180€ at third Party market)
@@Itsuki_Takeuchi May I ask where you bought the bearings? I've heard it's hard to get (at least from Hyundai). My engine still works fine, but just in case ;-)
@@bernhardbretterbauer7894 the Bearings from Hyundai are Spezial made for Hyundai. You cant get them from Hyundai. You only can buy the complete Engine (in Germany 13k€)
You need 1mm spacers for the 1mm smaller bearing. Then you can buy the new one online everywhere, it is industrial Standard. I use the Brand FAG, it is in for 60k kilometers and no Noise or Vibration
0:11 That is an "interesting" looking picture.
Indeed. The other additional illustrations have similar flaws if you look closely.