WHATS GOOD MY NOT-BEANSTERS. Thanks for watching and stuff :) Hopefully my scripted work will be more consistent I also made a Patreon! www.patreon.com/user?u=5895386 Regards!
Ghast Having defended story Xander to an extent, let me also play Devil's Advocate against support Xander in this video's comments... What, exactly is the depth of Xander? That he cares for country AND family? The complaint people make when they attack Xander as a cardboard cutout of "Fer muh HONOUR!" knightly stereotypes is... pretty much exactly that. Fire Emblem leans pretty heavily upon archetypes even in the best of times, partly justifiably because, outside of supports, there's little time or room to flesh out the dozens of characters in a single game in the main story, and since characters can die, they basically have to be introduced and removed from all plot relevance within a single chapter. (Which is why the whole idea of permadeath directly conflicts with the type of JRPG melodramatic storytelling that Fire Emblem obviously increasingly is focused upon... but that's another argument.) Xander and Ryoma, meanwhile, are basically the textbook definition of their particular archetypes, which is why it can frequently seem like they're practically the same person simply put in different contexts. Ryoma is THE Samurai, as in the myth that was created in the Edo period after Samurai stopped really being warriors. You know, the one about unceasing loyalty to liege and duty and honor and such. (Actual samurai were more mercenaries, and landless ones could only get paid while actually AT war, and were barred from any job, so they were actually a bloodthirsty bunch of brigands often pushing their lords into war at the threat of mutiny because they'd either pillage the lands of the neighboring lords or pillage their own lord's land because they gotta get paid. Even in war, they were more likely to headhunt enemy nobles with bounties on their heads then flee battle after getting a head than meaningfully contribute because getting paid was their only priority, not honor.) Ryoma is the family patriarch who has to walk the fine line between "Ninjo to Giri" (Duty to liege and family). Xander, meanwhile, is just the western fantasy version with everything about "samurai" and "Japanese culture" crossed out and replaced with "knight" and "European culture, as Japan pop culture sees it" (with the Knight in Shining Armor being as much a myth as the Honorable Samurai was)... plus, you know, the whole being more compromised by his position and the bad writing he receives that forces him to hold the idiot ball an awful lot. Put directly, both Xander and Ryoma are the perfect platonic Jungian archetypes of male virtue in their own respective cultures, (at least as far as Japan understands it, because Xander still comes off a bit more of the embodiment of Japanese virtues than European ones, just sporting curly blonde hair while doing it...). Where is the depth in saying that, "oh, he looks like he selflessly serves only his liege who is his family, but he actually selflessly cares for his family, as well!"? Camilla's supports merely reveal that he's perfect in his Ninjo AND his Giri... which is what a perfect samurai eternally strives to do. Corrin's supports about devoting himself to training just mean he's sublimating his own emotions to fulfill his duties to his liege... just as a perfect samurai does. Xander is a stock-standard Jungian archetype of male virtues, where male virtue is defined as having "cool" emotions. That is, men are expected in traditional storytelling to be virtuous when they suppress all their own personal emotion in pursuit of whatever duty or other specific virtue they are supposed to embody, such as 'honor' or 'courage' or whatever. By contrast, villainous males have "hot" emotions, acting wildly and with naked emotion pursuing their own self-satisfaction, such as Hans or Iago. By contrast, the feminine archetype of virtue, the Good Mother, is defined by "warm" emotions. They use their emotions selflessly to nurture. The feminine archetype of sin, meanwhile, has "cold" emotions, suppressing their emotions to pursue their objectives. And yes, that's the most flagrant double standard one can produce. Male virtues are sins when in a woman, and feminine virtues become sins when a man expresses them. That's why Iago looks so feminine to show he's evil right off the bat, because it's classically trained into audiences that feminine-looking men are obviously evil even when he hasn't really done anything, while Hans has to actually ACT evil to show his true colors. This is also why Leo and Takumi are considered flawed princes in-universe... because they are human and show emotions that are sometimes even "hot", and therefore not as perfect and robotic as their elder brothers. I say this because Camilla and Hinoka make good contrasts by not just being their default archetypes. Camilla is the Good Mother archetype with all her virtues cranked up to such ludicrous extremes that they actually become a subversion of the archetype. She's nurturing to the point of smothering. She's selfless and protective of her family to the point of flying into an insane berserker rage at the hint of disrespect to any of her family. She is focused upon her family to such a myopic degree that she literally does not care about what happens to anyone or anything outside her immediate family and pseudo-family of retainers. And you can see how heavily Fire Emblem leans on these traditional roles when Xander talks to Camilla. Camilla encourages Xander to be more "warm" and nurturing (I.E. fulfill some of the traditionally feminine virtues) the way that he clearly has a willingness to do, and he refuses because he says it's not his place to do so solely and explicitly because he is a male, and he therefore HAS to be a stern, emotionless patriarch that never shows warmth to his own family, whereas it is Camilla's role to be warm and nurturing solely and explicitly because she is female. Hinoka takes the Japanese Yamato Nadeshiko twist upon the good mother. (The Yamato Nadeshiko combines a more militant ethos of the samurai in with the Good Mother's nurturing side to ask of them a similar denial of self and militancy that they ask of samurai, even if to a lesser degree, along with their nurturing side. Basically, it's ironically just a "more masculine" feminine ideal.) Hinoka, however, has basically thrown all her traditional femininity to the wind in pursuit of those more militant, duty to family first side of the Yamato Nadeshiko, becoming a "tomboy" "warrior princess". Militant, physical protection of her family from all direct threats has overtaken her more traditional service to family through emotional support and protection from emotional threats. This is what makes Hinoka's support with Camilla so interesting. The Hinoka who gave up nearly all her traditional nurturing femininity in pursuit of one extreme in actually militantly protective femininity actually stops and feels what she has given up for the first time when she sees how Camilla and Corrin behave together, and she feels a sense of jealousy over how hyper-feminine Camilla can be, resulting in Hinoka trying to learn to sew to try to regain some of that... for lack of a better word, balance in the feminine ideal. It's still playing firmly, solidly in the bounds of what are feminine virtues, but it's actually saying something about how those virtues are a complex balancing act that are nearly impossible to pull off, even among characters absolutely defined by them to the exclusion of all else. Of the four eldest royals, Hinoka is really the only one whose personality actually tries to say anything or seriously deviate from the norm, and the only other one who is close is Camilla. Xander and Ryoma really are just stock characters from Central Casting with all the default responses to every question left intact.
Oh, and one more thing... Xander had to die at the end of Birthright for the same reason as Ryoma having to die at the end of Conquest: It would be too dishonorable for them to live. Keep in mind, these guys are basically the fetishized ideals of Samurai honor (even without Xander even being a Samurai), so it's absolutely demanded that they die in battle before their liege comes to harm or else commit seppukku to atone if they failed to die before that point. Living after having been in charge of a losing army would be a shame greater than they would be expected to bear. Again, pure Japanese values system at play. The reason why they throw Elise onto the bonfire with him is that by that point, Xander has been played as a plot prop for why they can't do the sane thing and not kill each other so many times he is probably completely unsympathetic to the player who has only played Birthright, so his death would likely not have any real impact. Hence, they have to trot out the character *EXPLICITLY* designed to be the single most concentrated bundle of sympathetic traits in the game outside of maybe her Hoshidan counterpart imouto character, and butcher her in the most protracted and melodramatic way possible to milk at least some FEELS out of the scene, even if you personally hate Xander... and the fact that Xander has to apparently both be directly responsible for that AND still spit on her final, most selfless and sympathetic wish just further cements his hatedom is mere collateral damage to the authors of Fire Emblem's writing because FEELS achieved!
Honestly that Xander speech is amazing writing, truly thought provoking for a morally gray story, like geneology. The problem is that fates is the exact opposite, it's clear black and white, and the fact that Xander gives it makes it worse. I could see Leo giving the speech. Ultimately, it's tragic to see a genuine good piece of writing, a diamond in the rough if you will, be completely wasted on fates.
I really wouldn't say Leo should give that speech, because it would honestly make no sense since Leo not in a position where he could think of a speech like this. Leo's not the type of character that prides himself on justice and honor after all.
I was thinking Leo, because Leo seemed like a character with a more grounded view on reality. He seemed like he understood that life has no true heroes or villains better than everyone else. Then again, since fates' writing sucks, he probably says something to contradict his character. Besides, the character that gives the speech should not pride himself on justice and honor, because the speech explains how there is no true justice, just morally gray decision-making. Thus, Leo seems like the most realistic and practical character to do it.
Vijay C. There truth to that, but to me I've always thought that both Xander and Leo realist. Even though Xander prides himself on justice and honor, he's still aware of the reality around him just like his brother. Difference is that Xander will become the king, so he has the ability to change the way things are in Nohr. The only why most people wouldn't notice this because of the writing that's put into the story.
Vijay C. Not really, Xander's speech is pretty bad even in philosophical viewpoint. You can't say justice is an illusion and then add things "what you know is right" and "evil men" in your speech. The whole thing about the grand ethical question of "what is justice?" isnt something you can easily say "it's an illusion" without first giving a definition to the word "justice". It's a bad speech that only exists to push the notion that Fates is a "Grey and gray morals" story when it's clearly black and white with its heroes and villains.
What he means by the word "justice" is the perfect victory where the bad guys are all killed and the good guys all saved. He's saying that no matter what you try to accomplish, innocent people will end up dying but you can't let that discourage you from fighting for a greater cause. Xander isn't a nihilist, he has values of honor and justice, he just accepts that in real life, good people will suffer despite your best intentions.
So your saying that Support Xander would have just rebelled against his crazy father and his allies of crack heads? Yeah I'll go with support Xander on this one.
The "Justice is an illusion" speech may have been better coming from Camilla who, as messed up as she is, because she soley values her concept of her family and status quo, clearly having no stock in good or evil if she can keep the family structure she relies on and reacting with violence when she can't.
There would also OF been a perfect opportunity to learn the difference between "could of" and "could have", because this is such a frequent error. "Could of" doesn't mean the same thing even if it's pronounced similarly.
What Fates lacked was a solid setting. Booting up Echoes, the first thing that struck me was how well-defined the setting was and what a fine setup the plot had. Fates didn't have that in my eyes. There was no real history or definition to the two countries. I sure hope the next FE has a better plot.
You have no idea how long I waited for this. Actually it was like a month. You pointed out something I never really thought about with the whole Zola deal. In hindsight (and maybe even without the hindsight), freeing the Hoshidian royals was stupid as all hells. Sure, I could understand if they had wanted to stop Zola from doing needless and dirty killings and whatnot, but that doesn't mean they HAD to let them free. With the people who pretty much run the Hoshido army trapped, walking into the capital and seizing the castle would be no big deal; granted, Yukimura and the soldiers still remain, but they would lack a lot of guidance and manpower without these four. By freeing them now they gotta do MORE fighting, MORE killing, on BOTH sides. And not only Xander, Corrin and Azura are a pair of idiots here: their objective was to win the war with as few casualties as possible, but by letting them go when they had them it's pretty much a "Yeah you're free to go now, we'll kill you later". They DO end up taking Sakura and Yukimura as prisoners. But apparently that's not ok unless you beat up their shit first and kill some dozens of soldiers. It's true that convincing Garon to keep them alive as prisoners would be the main issue, especially Ryoma. But hell, you could argue him that they could be used as hostages against the remaining Hoshidian army. Then Corrin and Azura lure Garon into the throne, his true form is revealed, they defeat him and all the royal siblings live. You don't even fight zombie pineapple. Hell, if they had Takumi captive then Azura might have managed to save him from Anankos in time. But all that couldn't happen because they chose to free them when they had them... then went on to capture them again themselves. Except they are kinda hard to catch without killing them, so you kinda blew your chances to end this mess a bit more neatly. So this was not only probably the hugest fuck up of Xander in Conquest, but also of Corrin and Azura. Did these two kids have their priorities in order? You could pretty much say that they are "playing war". This comment ended up longer than I expected but realizing such fuck up really fired me up, I know you all will understand. In any case, great video! I enjoy these support analysis you do and hope they become more frequent in the future.
Xander acting like Garon isn't actually that bad a thing. If done well of course. As you said, some of Xander's actions, like his tendency to resort to violence to get what he wants, show he's more like Garon than he wishes to admit. This could have been a good development tool for him, as either he or Corrin makes the realisation which leads to some introspection and development. It could have made for some interesting family moments in conquest, and could have made his turn in Birthright work better. This idea needs a lot more tweaking of course, but if done well could have made for interesting character development
Replying to a 3 year old comment is pointless, but whatever. I do think that your idea absolutely could work, but I'd like my own proposition that I think could probably make both stories way more interesting and gray-er. Have Ryoma be the main character of Birthright, and have Xander be the main character of Conquest. Relegate Corrin to the cast of side characters. I feel like making this change allows for a lot more potential in the writing than restricting themselves by making Corrin the focus. You can still have Corrin in both, heck you could even still do the sibling thing with them, but make them a side character of similar importance to Conrad, Hubert, Lucina, Caeda, or even Frederick. If Fanservice Emblem Warriors taught me anything, it's that Corrin makes for a really good side character. This, I feel, offers better ideas than the heavily restricted way they went about the game by having us only see through Corrin's eyes.
@@simeonrice6047 replying to a 3 year old comment is always a gamble as to whether they reply. As for your idea, it could work, and it could definitely be viable. My main issue is that by doing so, it kinda goes against the core concept of the game, that being choosing between families and the consequences that follow. while it could work, it's hard not to make it look like you're just picking a story, as opposed to making a conscious, ingame decision. Adding Gray to the story would be easier if Nohr wasn't written as a blatantly evil kingdom and Hoshido as a pure and innocent kingdom. Having said that, your idea can work, and in a way has been done in three houses. Byleth is the avatar and the common thread, but each route is effectively the Main Lord's story. Applying that here could work similarly, Corrin makes the choice and we still follow them, but Xander and Ryoma (maybe Azura for revs) are the main character of that route. Tho one issue there is that these are meant to be the big brothers, the strongest of the lot. They can't be that if they're main lords, they need room to grow. Hope I don't come off as bashing your idea, as I said it could work depending on how the story is written. Either way, to make everything work properly, the story of fates needs a little more attention
Additionally, the fact that you can S-Support Xander and have kids with him makes him threatening Corrin right before they confront Garon even more fucked up. Like, that's the mother of your kids, and the dialogue doesn't change to accompany that change, he's just the same ole story Xander, paranoid of the one person responsible for this war ending up the way it is
I think it would have worked well to give some of Xander's story dialogue and beliefs to Leo, the more cynical sibling. Especially the Justice is an Illusion part, which parallels Leo's earlier spiel about only disobeying Garon indirectly.
Story Xander acts like Henry in awakening, being perfectly fine with killing his own people in order to prolong a war that could have been ended much earlier, except Xander is framed as a good guy.
...Henry doesn't give rat's ass about ending the war quickly. He doesn't care about his own people, he says as much in support in Ricken and the ONLY reason why he warns Panne about the assassination plot was only since he figured it would "waste a perfectly fun war." Did you even play Awakening?
Henry does care for those who he has formed an emotional bond with (hence why all his paired endings say that he was a surprisingly good father), but yeah, he does not care about enidng the war quickly, he enjoys the bloodshed it causes
I'm not too sure if Xander letting Zola have his way would have been best for "ending the war". Zola planned to kill the royals, making martyrs out of them and inflaming the Hoshidan fervor in the war, likely causing more deaths. If Xander were written like his support counterpart, he would have killed Zola and his men out of pragmatism, not honor, and maybe keep secret custody of the royals.
Imagine this....hoshido cant use dragon vein anymore and its a big deal according to the game terraforming especially in strategy in make conquest a walk in the park for garon
I kinda disagree... Sure, they would become martyrs, but the Hoshidans would lose all their remaining royals and commanding officers, that is a HUGE blow and I doubt their army and their nation would have recovered from it
If anything, him saving the Hoshidan royalty should've led to him attempting to being talks of peace. Not just defending honor, but setting a better example for his people that violence and war is not the only way to get things done
I liked this set of videos, gives me a new prospective on Xander. I had wondered why Xander was popular, but I was going solely off of Story Xander. Story Xander had disinterested me to the point to where I was not very interested in getting to know Support Xander.
I feel like they could've written Peri a lot better. Keep her killer persona but instead of a child like speech, maybe a sexual or flirtatious one. They could've made all of the men and A+ supports about her persona, problems from it, and how they only keep her because she's a good soldier. They could've had the supports where they try to make her a good person, or try to make her understand that killing is wrong, but when it gets to the S support, Peri pulls them in with flirty and sexual speech that they have a one night stand. That way the child is made but they didn't really want to marry her, as she bat shit crazy, but because of this, in the credit screen, they could've written Peri to never kill again through their husbands help. That would've made a better Character and side story.
Edit: After ruminating on this topic for some time, I came to realise that saying Xander is unreasonable in BR chap 26 is a bit unfair, because his intentions are clear even though the writing is pretty bad. *He planned to die by Corrin's hands from the start. You can see this intent from his prior conversation with Peri and Laslow. He was planning a suicide-by-cop because he knows he won't be able to live with killing one of his siblings.* (Which unfortunately is what happens anyways. Whoops?) One of his support conversations even have him agree that he had thought about ending his life to atone for all the people he killed in the war. I mean, think about it rationally. Even if he did end up felling Corrin in battle, because he told his retainers to stay out of it and went alone, he'd probably end up getting killed by the Hoshidan forces anyways. *Regardless of who wins the duel he fully expects to die there and then.* But the duel didn't go as he planned, didn't it? Elise got in the way, and her death broke the poor man. *If he was simply resigned before, he really wants to die now.* That's why he puts on a show and told Corrin to get up and fight him, purposefully goading them to battle him. *Really, he's just screaming "I can't live like this."* As to why he's so headstrong about defending Garon, well, he's the crown prince of Nohr! To let a group of people who want to assassinate their king pass would be treason of the highest order. Add that to the fact that he held up hope for so long that the father he knew is not truly gone (wrong as it was, even he knew that in the gulf of his heart), it's really not too unreasonable to chalk it up to stress due obligations and years of neglect. *In a nutshell, Birthright Xander is a man claimed by the tolls of all the lives he took in war and an abusive father, pushing him to cling to his beliefs like a drowning man to a raft. The fact that so many misinterpreted his character is another unfortunate example of good character, bad writing.*
Personally I would have done what Xander did in the situation with Zola. It is a dishonorable and cowardly thing to do. Zola captured Archduke Izana and put him in a jail cell within his own home. He tricked the Hoshidans into letting down their guard and TOOK their weaponry and locked them away. He planned to sentence them all to death, one after another. Zola then confirmed his even worse intentions when he wondered if Sakura would cry when it was her time to die, meaning he thought this whole thing to be FUN for him and hardly gave a thought to the war! He also says he wants to receive a title for his efforts. He was genuinely just thinking about himself. If the Nohrian Royals allowed this to happen the aftermath of the war would have been even WORSE. Hoshido would have had no rightful heirs and fell into chaos and destruction without a leader. But with Xander's decision to save them two Hoshidans survived the war and were able to begin to restoration of Hoshido.
agreed i quite frankly see it as a reasonable and support xander would probably do the exact same i think after support xander is just xander who is with people he trusts or corrin trusts.
**Says that they love you without actually ever showing that or doing anything to back that up.** Sounds exactly like my mother. And my father. And the rest of my "family." Oh well. Great video!
Super late to the party but I was thinking you might want to check out the story xander in Linkmstr's English patched playthrough. It doesn't necessarily fix all the problems you've pointed out but I find the original story xander is more ambiguous and there's a feeling of unspoken fear behind his actions. Maybe a fear of loosing the siblings he has left if he disobeys the King. Anyways just some food for thought.:) edit: especially check out the differences in the chapter 24 justice speech, that one is amazing
I'll post the same here as I did on SF because youtube's algorithms. For Chapter 18, the only thing I can think of is that people of Nohr would find the act dishonorable to the point that they might actually use that as fuel to continue waging war against Nohr itself-- ie, all of the rebellions that were talked about in the plot-- two of which the player themselves have to subdue. The first being the Ice Tribe, and the second being Cheve. By having enough dirt on Nohr, it might still be enough to insight infighting I'd wager. However, it's also debatable that this wasn't even a thought that occurred to the writers. For Chapter 18, you could channel your inner Corrin and capture ALL of the soldiers so they don't die. :Soldier: As for Kotaro, I have no idea. I honestly have nothing on that. With the only rationale I can offer is that he wants to maintain a clean war so that enemies are less likely to deploy the same tactics that old Nohr would. However, this is a bit contradictory to support Xander that doesn't seem to hold this almost indefinable honor system that Xander seems to follow. Really the only argument that could be made is that Xander is attempting to think of a long run path rather than simply the easiest road traveled for a quick victory, but nothing really addresses this with storyline Xander. We don't get an actual reason why, but rather just "honor" which is a sentiment which varies based on individuals. And as you pointed out, the 3 different Xanders in the story.
First of all, amazing video dude I really liked the editing of it. I played Conquest first and in my opinion Xander was a very charismatic character to the very end. Yes it is true, it was very odd that Xander told Corrin that he will punish her as any other traitor (Nohr politics?) If she was lying about his father, to put a trap to her own family and kingdom, when Corrin has clearly show her loyalty to everyone. But I kinda trying to see it from Xander's point of view, saying something big like the father you have known your entirely life, the father and king who everyone has put their trust, has become a monster out of nowhere? It sounds quite shocking isn't it? Although your siblings fear him to the death. Xander of Conquest is a character that was hesitating about If what he was doing or his father was doing was for the best, for his people and most important his family. But in the final chapter when we show the Nohrian family the truth about King Garon. Camilla, Leo and Elise, they just cant believe it, they are terrified!!! but Xander is the only one that face the reality or better said the nightmare that is in front of them, with no more doubts, he joins Corrin to fight his father and put an end to everything once and for all. Proof of this, his legendary weapon Siegfried starts to glow and fuse his power with the Yato of Corrin, showing his final resolution and complete trust for his sibling at the very end of the story. BUT I cant deny the fact that when I played Birthright there was like a miss feeling about him, which your video helped me a lot to understand. The only explanation I could give for Xander in Birthright, is that he just couldn't accept the fact that Corrin didn't return to Nohr and that blinds him completely, during the whole story. Probably the game designers thought that because this was suppose to be a completely separated game, people didn't need to understand at all Xander's character from Conquest. It is like If they treat the two games separately one from another. To give you an unique experience, which is the main concept of the game: The choices you make can change your life Great video, hope to see next Ryoma or everyones favorite pineapple Takumi. Peace
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the assessment of the bit with Zola. While I can agree about most of it (Xander placing honor as his reasoning and how he doesn't comment much on how he feels killing soldiers who were just following orders, like story!Xander loves to argue, being an issue of sorts), Zola did kidnap and impersonate Izana, who is the ruler of a nation that is neutral in the conflict. Considering that both Hoshido AND Nohr honor that neutrality, Zola's violation of that neutrality would definitely reflect poorly on Nohr, so I can kinda understand that (I mean, I wouldn't want my country to be seen as one commits acts like those against a nation whose neutrality we respect and honor). Mokushu... well, yeah, that one's on Xander. I feel like I generally agree with this assessment of Xander. I'll admit I like Fire Emblem Fates, but Xander was always one of my least favorite characters/siblings, and I think this is generally good at explaining why. Very great video, I really believe you did a good job here!
I dont know if you pointed it out but when Xander says: "There is no such thing as a clean win" and yet he attacked Zola because it wouldn't be a 'honorable win' which is about the same thing as saying it wouldn't be winning cleanly....
This is A solid Video And I hope that IS can see this for future stories and next time and don't force the team to write so much at once with some ridiculous characters that make a mess of things ( Anakos, Peri). So that next time it's a lot better. Request: Could You make a video based on the differences of English Henry and Japanese Henry because of how much difference there is between the two versions? Or a Video on why Henry does the Amoral Killer role right so that IS can finally repeat the wonder that was Henry's Character.
This Xander two-parter was great! I usually dont get many support convos with Xander in my conquest/rev runs, but maybe I'll try and have Xander hang out with some people
The argument that Xander freeing the Hoshidan royals from Zola to "prolong the war" and his latter "justice is an illusion" speech contradict each other doesn't sit right with me. First off is the fact that due to the game's inconsistent ludonarrative dissonance, we don't know for sure whether the Nohrian soldiers under Zola's command were outright killed by Corrin and her army or not. You can blame the game's writing for that, but had Zola captured Xander's siblings instead, incapacitating Nohrian fighters would not be something that Xander would hesitate to do. Xander is fully aware that Corrin doesn't want to bring harm to the Hoshidan royals, and I suspect that the "honor" shtick was a cover-up to silently affirm Corrin's plan of letting them live peacefully once the war ended. Yes, he should've had the foresight to know that being ruled by Garon would make that basically impossible, but at this point in the story, Xander still believes his father to not be wholly evil. And even if Zola's army is Nohrian, Zola is operating outside the army, basically acting as a vigilante. These are Nohrians that have forsaken their government to follow another leader with cowardly tactics (not much better than Garon from a moral perspective, but yeah), arguably making them traitors to the nation, despite doing exactly what Garon would want anyway. Remember that for all their troubles, the plan was about operating under Garon's nose to cause as little bloodshed as possible, and the fact that when they later fight Takumi, Hinoka, and Sakura, Corrin does so with the full intent to have them secretly surrender and escape with their lives. She doesn't succeed in regards to Takumi, but his death came as a suicide, not from Xander or any of the army dealing the killing blow. The "justice is an illusion" scene happens in regards to all the other Hoshidan soldiers and families whose deaths come at the hands of Garon. Corrin clearly doesn't dig what's going on, but Xander, in the best way he can, tries to reason that allowing this to happen is a necessary compromise to allow the people closer to Corrin to potentially survive. It's a "would you rather save a hundred people or your mother" situation, with Xander persuading Corrin to stick with saving the proverbial mother, since his care for Hoshidan citizens is questionable. Both of these scenes happen in service to Corrin, which is what Xander has been all about throughout his appearances. Now, you could argue that that in and of itself is shoddy writing, not giving Xander enough agency to do what he believes in just to worship Corrin, but I don't think your example works to prove your point of inconsistency. I think you did a good enough job elaborating on that in your first video. I feel like there's a combination of attempted nuance with confused inconsistency here, with Xander himself maybe holding fast to a doublethink regarding his country and Corrin.
First off is the fact that due to the game's *inconsistent ludonarrative dissonance* I don’t know what this means but ow my head. *we don't know for sure whether the Nohrian soldiers under Zola's command were outright killed by Corrin and her army or not* It’s heavily implied they were killed as well. Leo needs to kill Zola so he could not report back to king Garon about their act of treason. Zola had Nohrian soldiers under him, you don’t think any survivors would have gone back to Krakenburg? *but had Zola captured Xander's siblings instead, incapacitating Nohrian fighters would not be something that Xander would hesitate to do* Of Course, Zola would have committed an act of treason. Xander and co. have full grounds to kill Zola and anyone else affiliated with that plan. I don’t see how this is relevant. *Xander is fully aware that Corrin doesn't want to bring harm to the Hoshidan royals, and I suspect that the "honor" shtick was a cover-up to silently affirm Corrin's plan of letting them live peacefully once the war ended. Yes, he should've had the foresight to know that being ruled by Garon would make that basically impossible, but at this point in the story, Xander still believes his father to not be wholly evil* Really? Xander literally witnessed Garon laugh maniacally wanting to make Corrin suffer. Xander knows about the Chevois massacre. Any rational thinker in Xander’s situation would suspect something is absolutely wrong with a man who apparently would never do such things. But I guess that’s story Xander for you, being written to fit whatever scene that calls for him. *And even if Zola's army is Nohrian, Zola is operating outside the army, basically acting as a vigilante. These are Nohrians that have forsaken their government to follow another leader with cowardly tactics (not much better than Garon from a moral perspective, but yeah), arguably making them traitors to the nation* I completely disagree. Zola’s army is Nohrian, yes. But Zola is not operating outside the army in any way that would be condemnable as treason. Zola is acting solely in the best interest of Nohr, which is to conquer Hoshido. I don’t buy that they have forsaken their government if that’s the goal. While Zola may not be following Garon’s footsteps like Hans or Iago, Garon’s orders would never be more complex than “kill Hoshidans and anyone else in the way”. Xander never states that Zola was acting treasonous, just dishonorable. Leo just says he’s shameful. Zola’s Battle Quote is “Why are you fighting this?! I am not you're enemy, those Hoshidans are! I act only for the glory of Nohr! Why is this happening? WHY?!” This doesn’t sound like the words of someone acting vigilante. He’s undeniably serving the state and certainly not abandoning it. There is no vigilantism or treasonous behavior going on with Zola; he’s serving Garon just fine. Zola never disobeyed the crown prince either because he was never even ordered to stop. The royals are the ones literally killing Zola to cover their tracks so he could not report back to Garon. They, for all intents and purposes, killed their own and committed treason. About your last two paragraphs, I honestly don’t know what to tell you. Personally I don't think Xander's acts to make Corrin feel better mean that he doesn't believe in his honor agenda. But that is another way of interpreting Xander’s behavior, thanks for sharing. *Edited to fix formatting*
*It’s heavily implied they were killed as well. Leo needs to kill Zola so he could not report back to king Garon about their act of treason. Zola had Nohrian soldiers under him, you don’t think any survivors would have gone back to Krakenburg?* That's a good counterargument. The fact that Leo is the one to kill Zola gives credence to your theory that the men operating under Zola would have to be eliminated as well. Alternatively, Izumo as a government is a country independent from Hoshido and Nohr, so considering the fact that all the soldiers had presumably been defeated, it's quite possible they could've been incarcerated for breaking Izumo's neutrality laws. Wounded soldiers likely wouldn't be able to move much on their own, after all. Also, the fact that the real Izana doesn't chastise the royals for killing people in his country supports that they were incarcerated, not killed or escaped back to Krakenburg. This is another potential case of ludonarrative dissonance (which fyi, means when the gameplay and story of a game don't coincide with each other. Think being overleveled for a major boss and winning easily, yet the cutscene following acts like your party's exhausted) as Zola's army will always aggro you, even if you tried to stealthily free the royals without fighting instead. Now, if we assume your theory is correct, then I suppose Xander and the Nohrian royals are guilty of treason for killing fellow Nohrians. But then again, the army has already committed various acts of treason in simply trying to help Corrin in the first place. Garon's orders were to have Corrin suppress the Ice Tribe on her own, and yet Jakob/Felicia, Elise, her retainers, Silas, Niles, and Odin all banked on helping her out anyway. Engaging in battle with fellow countrymen is obviously something that would give the army more pause, but their attempts to keep their treasonous acts under wraps so far have all been successful. That's why I presented my alternative above; the fact that we are given no information to the fates of the Nohrian soldiers who sided with Zola is ultimately the game's own fault for not providing something you'd think would be important to mention. I guess interpretation from that point onwards lies in how much you trust or doubt Corrin and Xander's competency. *Of Course, Zola would have committed an act of treason. Xander and co. have full grounds to kill Zola and anyone else affiliated with that plan. I don’t see how this is relevant.* This is incredibly relevant, as it speaks volumes about Xander's character. Xander doesn't like the Hoshidan royals. He just finished having an argument with Ryoma before the Hoshidans were captured. But Xander also knows how much they mean to Corrin. Even if she hasn't said as much, her actions have been very blatantly trying to protect the Hoshidan royals. The only reason why she'd act this way is because she cares for them and still sees them as siblings. This exhibits the fact that XANDER IS EMPATHETIC. He very easily could've told Corrin to shut up, and that letting Zola kill the Hoshidans now would just save their army a lot of trouble. Lord knows he doesn't care for them personally. But he also realizes that Corrin cares deeply for their livelihood, and realizes that to Corrin, letting the Hoshidan royals die would be just as bad as Xander standing by to let his own siblings die. He's helping Corrin fight not because he wants to save the royals, but because Corrin wants to. *Really? Xander literally witnessed Garon laugh maniacally wanting to make Corrin suffer. Xander knows about the Chevois massacre. Any rational thinker in Xander’s situation would suspect something is absolutely wrong with a man who apparently would never do such things. But I guess that’s story Xander for you, being written to fit whatever scene that calls for him.* It's weird to me that you specifically bring up "something is absolutely wrong with a man who apparently would never do such things" as though it's supporting your argument, when I think it actively deconstructs it. You have your answer right there. We, as the audience, don't see what the life of the Nohrian siblings was like prior to the events of the game. Only by listening in on the Nohrian royals' support conversations do we hear about the kind of person Garon was like in their childhoods, but apparently, he was a pretty decent guy. Strong and strict, yes, but warm enough to the point where Xander genuinely loved him. Then, all of a sudden, you see your dad acting really weird and darker than usual. Of course alarm bells are going off in your head that something is clearly not right. But that would make you worried about your dad, not outright distrustful. Xander is still holding onto the hope that there's some kind of reasoning behind Garon's actions that''s ultimately for the good of Nohr and its people, because he wants to trust his dad. He wants to be able to see his father as he once did, to the point where it's now clouding his judgment on the events folding around him. That's not ignorance, stupidity, or delusion; that's hope. Misguided, faulty hope, but hope nonetheless. *I completely disagree. Zola’s army is Nohrian, yes. But Zola is not operating outside the army in any way that would be condemnable as treason. Zola is acting solely in the best interest of Nohr, which is to conquer Hoshido. I don’t buy that they have forsaken their government if that’s the goal. While Zola may not be following Garon’s footsteps like Hans or Iago, Garon’s orders would never be more complex than “kill Hoshidans and anyone else in the way”. Xander never states that Zola was acting treasonous, just dishonorable. Leo just says he’s shameful.* Well first off, I already mentioned Izumo being a neutral party where fighting between nations is prohibited, but let's gleam past that. Zola and Xander have history with each other ("It's been a long time, Lord Xander.") which seems somewhat distrustful, as Xander immediately recognizes Zola and isn't too pleased to see him. No other information is given, which leaves us to question who Zola is exactly. For all we know, he could have just as high a ranking as Iago, or be an underground vigilante who's committing acts of war in hopes of getting chummy with Garon. Again, bad writing over here. In addition... *Zola’s Battle Quote is “Why are you fighting this?! I am not you're enemy, those Hoshidans are! I act only for the glory of Nohr! Why is this happening? WHY?!” This doesn’t sound like the words of someone acting vigilante. He’s undeniably serving the state and certainly not abandoning it. There is no vigilantism or treasonous behavior going on with Zola; he’s serving Garon just fine. Zola never disobeyed the crown prince either because he was never even ordered to stop. The royals are the ones literally killing Zola to cover their tracks so he could not report back to Garon. They, for all intents and purposes, killed their own and committed treason.* Are you certain those desperate pleas for affirmation aren't the words of a vigilante? Imagine if Batman was a cowardly douchebag with a penchant for being a kiss-ass. "Why are you fighting this?! I am not your enemy, the Joker is! I act only for the glory of Gotham! Why is this happening? WHY?!" That, to me, sounds like the desperate grovels of someone who knows what they're doing isn't lining up with what they're legally supposed to do, and are demanding affirmation because "it's what you royals would do anyway!" You're right that even if he was found out, he likely wouldn't be punished by Garon, and might even be awarded for it. But at that moment, he wasn't facing Garon, he was facing Corrin and Xander, who as loyal as they are to Nohr, aren't Garon. Moreover, Xander was willing to concede to Izumo's policies on fighting, to the point where he even (regrettably) sat down for dinner with the Hoshidans afterwards. I honestly feel like you're conflating what should be a confused young man who simultaneously wants to serve his country and his sibling with an ignorant one who is actively betraying Nohr with his lack of logic. I definitely concede that all of the characters are written infinitely better in their support conversations than they are in the main story, to the point where some questionable writing decisions hamper what could've been a fascinating story with very gray morality. I just don't think this specific example is one of them. I don't mean to invalidate any of what you said, as a lot of gaps in the story does demand interpretation that should never have happened in the first place, but you know, that's Fates for you. (P.S., I'm sorry if I've come across as douchey in this post. I don't comment on your other support science videos because I genuinely find them fascinating and tend to agree with your conclusions, but don't really have anything to add to the conversation. It was just specific video that I found some problems with. No hard feelings, I hope.)
WritersBlah Bro, you gotta understand that there is little to no complexity to this story or writing. Your whole argument is based on the possibility that this story is more complex than it is. This isn't a novel, it's a game that really wants you to have fun and buy two more routes.
Luiszerep Okay first off, that's a really dangerous way of thinking. To say that a story is JUST meant to provide context for the gameplay routes makes any potential analysis (like this very Support Science series) devalued. Secondly, just because everyone SAYS this game's story has zero complexity to it doesn't make it true. I agree that there are issues with character writing, missing information, and undeserved player gut punches that make the overall product worth less than it could have been. Nevertheless, I believe that a degree of complexity does in fact exist within the game's narrative. I just pointed out a potential one in my previous comment. And don't come to me with, "I'm sure that wasn't what the writers intended when they wrote that." Death of the author is a popular mode of thought within literature circles for a reason. Individual analysis of a story is important for making sure that public opinion of a work doesn't stagnate, and I feel is especially important on the Internet, where falling into a comfortable position of groupthink is really easy. The popular opinion of Fates' story right now is that it's terrible, a good lot of which is chalked up to "muh Treehouse translation," but I digress. I'm not sure if that's meant in general or in comparison to other Fire Emblem stories. My goal isn't to prove that Fates has a great story (I don't think it does), but that it's not as terrible as most people claim.
There is a benefit in attacking Zola and Kotaro - Nohr's honor. Had Corrin and Xanders did exactly what they wanted, the Nohrias would be continues to be despicable cowards who use dirty tricks to get what they want, just like Garon. Ending the war quickly, isn't always in the best interest of everyone. Genocide is easy thing to do but then you have to deal with have consequences for all people, be it a soldier or a poor villager. This way they open a way to actually create a lasting peace and hopefully get Hoshido a chance to rebuilt in Conquest. What if they defeated Garon but went with what Zola did? No one in Hoshido would trust them and the conflict would continue as a rebellion. Had Zola and Kotaro displayed any redeemable qualities that they can turn out to be good people, they would have been spared like Sakura or the Ice Tribe. Xanders isn't only looking out for people of Nohr but also Hoshidans. The same way that Ryoma comes to care for Nohr after he went to the capital with Corrin and realized how little resources Nohrians actually have in comparison to Hoshido which is fruitful. In the end Ryoma decides then that once they will deal with Garon, he will establish trade routes with Nohr to help them out. Ryoma's anger in Conquest is absolutely justified but after events with Zola, you can see that he gains respect for the Nohrian siblings. They are still going to fight since both their kingdoms are on the line but their approach has already been changed, although I think it is strongly to Corrin being part of the rescue party. Obviously, Garon in the end wouldn't have any of that but Xanders and the rest of his siblings still hold his previous image dear. Was it misguided? Absolutely, given all the possession and stuff but that was hope he hang on to. They believe that Corrin will help them change Nohr and their Father, however silly this notion was given Garon's state. In the end, however, they never came to hate their father, no matter what they have been put through or how many times they had to bit their tongues and nod just not to be executed. This is why the thought of killing him never crossed their mind in Conquest until Corrin persuaded them he is not the father they knew but an empty shell. Even then they were reluctant to bear arms against him because it was their father. They did see Garon as someone who crosses lines but they don't think he is doing it out of sheer pleasure. Nohr needs resources, as it's highlighted in Birthright. You can fight for what is right and not doing it through a path of justice or have honor even if justice is not on your side. This is the essence of Nohr, they need a resources to make their kingdom survive, which makes their struggle for them righteous but not just. Birthright Xanders fighting on the side of Nohr instead of joining Corrin is not surprising either, again his misguided love for his father is still there but you can see that he is conflicted, which is why he chooses to die. His decision to keep Peri and Laslow away for his combat against Corrin is a suicidal attempt in response to the conflict of what is right (Nohr needs resources and Hoshidans have the right to be angry after the murder of Mikoto) and his love for his family (sibling, the man Garon used to be and his retainers). This inner conflict was deepened more with Elise's death as having blood of his family is the last thing he ever wanted. This is why distinction between honor, righteousness and justice is so important.
Xander is more Machivilian than many people realize. Hes far less selfless than he pretends to be. He wears the persona of knight in shinning armor but in truth hes willing to engage in underhanded tactics but only to a point. He has his own sense of honor that he follows. He will protect his position as first prince by obeying his father because hes the best ruler for Nohr. He will employ Peri as his retainer because an effective ruler needs to do evil actions for the greater good. He dreams of perfect future where all nohr citizens are happy in a peaceful world but in the here and now he will use dirty handed tactics. That said, he has his limits and would much prefer to beat Hoshido honorably and won't hesitate to kill even Nohr soldiers who get in the way of his sense of honor. Keep in mind, they are traitors in Xander for opposing him and Xander is not Corrin. He will not hesitate to kill those that stand in his way. Then again, the way Fate works, those Nohr solders might not have died. After all, Corrin somehow stopped the ice tribe rebellion without killing anyone. lol
Amazing analysis. I really appreciate how you did this, your summing it up by saying that you tried to avoid using the term "bad writing" is exactly what I loved about this. Instead of just saying he's not written well, you went into so much detail as to why. Thank you for this video, looking forward to seeing more from you. :)
Before I start defending Xander I want to say I love watching your content and wholeheartedly enjoy it Now the issue I find is that you combined Hoshidan and Nohrian story and nohrian Xander has nothing behind him but hoshidan Xander has 2 possible points to make him not as much of an idiot as the story makes him 1st being rage or fear and 2nd being the lack of knowledge of the nohrian royals in the birthright storyline back to the 1st point I don't know about you but I make trash decisions when I'm mad and usually don't speak well about anything and everything and also having your worst fear (as you said in part one that he unconditionally loves corrin so it is possible he is already scared that Corrin will chose the truth instead of this lie he has lived as his life) is going to come true may cripple his choices over the next few days which leads into my 2nd point into which Garon doesn't have a Slave any more so his decision probably change based on his situation and may say or order Xander to do something while in a state of stress but that is just my opinion Btw I still enjoy and respect your content
"But Ghast! I liked the way they wrote Xander. I haven't played other Fire Emblem games though, but I have absolutely no bias whatsoever, you're just making the game look bad for the sake of it!" In all seriousness though, I really hope that the writters/localization team have learned their lesson. And don't fuck up FE16 (whenever that may be released)
You know I feel IS actually is pretty attentive to feedback and try to make improvements where they are needed, so they must be aware of the general consensus regarding Fates story. We'll see if they can improve this area. I've been playing Japanese Echoes and have liked how they managed the story so far, although that's not an entirely original plot since it's based on Gaiden of course. Fingers crossed for the story of Switch FE tho
I can't express how much i like how Ghast handle the Fire Emblem franchise. He obviously and openly didn't like the game. And it's very easy to just give up a game you don't like at first. But Ghast didn't do that. As a true, true Fire Emblem fan, he continued trying to understand more about this game. In the end, i don't think it changed his overall opinion about it, but now, his opinion is a very informed one. I believe he knows pretty much everything you can know about Fates, which makes his opinion more relevant. *Unlike another TH-camr who considers himself a fan of the franchise*, he genuinely wants to learn more about it, because he's passionate. I love you, Ghast, i hope you'll continue doing that forever
One thing I wanted to say: I feel that Xander's talk with Leo and Xander telling Leo to 'gather your most trusted troops' was xander implying he knew what was going on and he wanted to be ready for anything but he couldn't openly say anything because of his role as crown prince and that suspicions were focused on him at that time.
I never liked Xander in the main campaigns but always looked forward to reading his supports...I did stupidly trade in Birthright so I might buy Conquest later this year just to fully fill his supports. I can't wait for Eliwood's time to shine in these support science videos as I really like the guy
*comment number XYZ which states how well made this support science was made* I also vote for Gregor from Awakening. ...I didn't enjoy Awakening aswell as Fates that much but some characters are nice, like Gregor. ...but the ones like him get overlooked because we have other fan favorites...which is not Gregor, it seems. ...so let's give this man some time in the spotlight so the world of New Gen FE can see, how great he is, as he is Gregor. ...in short: No "nooooonczeeeenze" please, thanks.
Yeah but isnt fire emblem always about the crazy people i mean unique heroes....i consider obsession with justice like arthur mental illness so that tells you how i see things
If they wanted Xander to be to all these contradictory things they should have had Garon, Iago, or ooze monster controlling him with dark magic. Why not it happened to takumii off screen and also Gunther.
Story Xander is a Skrull! Thanks for taking the time to do this video. I can't even imagine how long it must've taken you to write the script for this one. Let's hope SoV improves the writing of the series. From my basic knowledge of Japanese and the few Memories I've seen on TH-cam, that seems to be the case. However, I'm pissed that they locked some supports behind DLC. I think this is getting out of hand. Let's hope Nintendo and Intelligent Systems pull their shit together for FE Switch.
Dozens of cannon fodder nohr soldiers do not = the life of 1 of the best ninjas period, Kaze. Xander is more Machiavellian than shinning knight in armor. He wears a mask of honor and justice but its not how he actually operates.
Wissenschaft Machiavelli would have chosen the path of less conflict with a quick end to war. He may have been evil and shrewd but he certainly wasn't dumb
that would be so good if they really did two game withvery different outcome (perhaps inizumo the royals being captured but corrin disobeying helping them to escape in nohr)
Hey ghast, would you consider making a Zihark support science? I feel he is an interesting character, and is one of the few well-written "tragic backstory" characters, as he doesn't come off super edgy.
I love all of these support science videos I've seen so far, but especially these two videos about Xander. Something always seemed off to me when it came to how he acts in the plot vs how he acts in supports but I had trouble putting my finger on what that was exactly, and these videos finally helped me put words to it. I'm half convinced that different people wrote support Xander and story Xander because the amount of dissonance between the two is too great for them to have the exact same writers behind them. And if there was no difference in the writing teams, then that's a huge cause for concern. Character development and plot development should work off of each other, but with quite a few of the Fates characters (Xander especially) it sometimes feels like they've been shoehorned into what should be their own story. Sometimes it's as if the supports show who the characters really are while the plot is a mediocre fanfiction based off of the characters in the supports. Anyway, I really enjoyed these videos and I'm excited to see you cover more supports as the series continues.
my only excuse is the mechanics reason of "if Xander was anything like support Xander you would have a OP prepromote at the early chapters of the game" but even then they gave Ryoma a more dignified and character appropriate death in conquest
Another thing I feel should've been mentioned in either video is how in Birthright, Xander is intent on a duel to the death with Corrin, yet on Conquest, when Ryoma wants to do the EXACT SAME THING with Corrin, he tries to get between them and even basically tries to command the army to follow. And honestly Ryoma's reaction is somewhat justified because he genuinely believes that Corrin murdered Hinoka in cold blood and is blindly following Garon. It's just really petty of Xander to try and get between it when he demands the SAME THING in another route for a MUCH less justifiable reason. I just feel like his character is all over the place. (And Nohr is actually my preferred campaign.) Also... That speed on a paladin is just abysmal. Even if they were trying to balance the gameplay in routes by making the Nohrian royals heavy-hitting tanks (with the exception of Elise who's essentially a fragile speedster with incredible magic damage) and the Hoshidan royals incredibly speedy and skilled, his speed is WAYYY lower than whay it should be. It almost never goes into the 20's for me unless I get incredibly RNG blessed. I think paladins in general got nerfed in Fates honestly. That was random but I just wanted to say that too.
It might be a bit much to ask, but can you do an episode of this support reviewing for Charlotte? I love her personality expressed through her supports, and ESPECIALLY with Keaton. Seriously, go check it out.
I absolutely love your support science videos and I was waiting for this one to come out. As usual, you're totally right! :D Could you do a support science over Leo?
You know i actually love Xander. Well the Support Xander atleast just because I really like him with Charlotte and Nyx. overall i like your video i and i can learn so much thinks for you. Keep up making good video's
It might be worth considering that Xander and corrin together really can't kill Garon under almost any circumstance until endgame. The chapter, endgame. Especially with Lago there. I agree completely with nigh everything you've said. Yet, the consideration of throwing his own life away if he disagrees with his father. And even corrin, or other royals. Other than the fact Corrin can 2 round dragon garon in birthright, in conquest, it takes an army and corrin's deus ex machina sword to win. Which at the point of the justice is an illusion speach, corrin doesn't have.
An interesting thought. Though I wonder what would have happened if Xander’s Siegfried didn’t react at all after seeing garon sitting on the throne like that.
One could say that the contradictory actions of story Xander actually makes him more realistic. People are contradictory by nature. Xander loves his father, his family, and his nation. If forced to choose, who would he pick? How can you make such an impossible choice? We basically get to see Xander make three different choices. Birthright, where Xander stands by his father. Conquest, where Xander stands by his siblings. And Revelations where Xander supports Corrin for a better future and therefore actually doing whats best for his nation.
I feel the only game that did Xander justice was Fire Emblem Warriors, which was developed by Koei Tecmo. He talks like everyone's dad and is a beast on the battlefield.
There's nothing that says Zola's soldiers are skilled. Kaze is clearly far above their skill. That's what he means. So their dishonorable nature supercedes the fact that they're from his country. While not stated, I'd bet he doesn't enjoy killing Nohrian soldiers, but he knows he must if he wants to get at Zola, since they would obviously defend him. But yeah, he does prolong the War and this does make him contradict that support statement. That said, it's just him being irrational. My own personality isn't consistent either, and so, his personality caused these issues.
He's a bit more consistent than you think. In Support and Story and in both games he doesn't go against his Father even if he thinks what his Father is doing is wrong. How did you overlook that?
I feel like Xander's reasoning for allowing the Hoshidan nobles to live falls in line with support Xander, however, his reaction to attack his own army is bizarre. Sorry if you mentioned this in the video, I'm making this comment half way through
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make when Xander is killing Zola's men. I don't think he contradicts support Xander at all. None of Xander's supports indicate that he would have let Hoshido's royals get killed in a dishonorable way. The exact same thing happened in Kaze's case, and that was explained well in their support. If anything, it contradicts Xander's actions, or lack thereof during the 'Justice is an illusion" speech. However, it makes sense that he wasn't acting against killing innocent Hoshidans because Garon was right behind him and would have killed Xander if he tried to stop the killings. You say that support Xander only wishes for the well-being of the Nohrian people, but he also wants to do things honorably. You can have both of those things in most cases, but when Zola captured the Hoshidan royals, Xander could only choose one of those things. To put it simply, Xander has a set of values, but the events of Conquest made it impossible for him to follow all of those values at once. Overall, I think Conquest Xander acts in-line with support Xander. Your strongest points were definitely made in the first part where Birthright Xander wasn't able to read people's emotions or seem to care about the wishes or feelings of his siblings even though he clearly showed the contrary in his support conversations.
Ghast Station I think this video was very well thought up and I agree with you on several occasions. However I feel this needs to be said and that is Xander is part of a game. What I mean by that is the story Xander and the game was set up that way so their could be more gameplay. Even in your you video you say, "In the story, Xander is just written for whatever the scene calls for", which if you think makes sense since it's for the purpose of making more chapters and allowing people to have more gameplay overall. Yeah they could've made it seem better by like you said by making Xander try to see corrin's side of the story and try to convince him/her to come back. Also, they could've made him say that him being the crown prince, he has to make tough decisions or something along those lines. Even with support Xander being different than story Xander doesn't make him more horrible as you claim. Often in life you will find what people or you say is different than what you do. How is Xander any different; anybody can say that they will stand up to their father like him in his supports, but to actually do it and without making him seem as a traitor is not an easy task. Even if he decided to go against King Garon's orders and was branded weak and a traitor like Corrin, then how is he supposed to act, team up with Hoshido who cares less about Nohr and even more so it's King and crown prince. Also you can't throw story Xander under the bus without stating his good side. He did stand up to his father on several occasions such as Conquest chapter 7 when he protected Corrin from father's claims and when he refused to kill Corrin. Then there's Conquest chapter 24 as you mentioned, but you skipped over this part where he said he didn't like the plan and said, "But we must stay strong. If we falter now, the whole world will pay the price." It would seem he knows that his father's plans are arguably wrong, but follows him anyway because he's his father and King of Nohr and, like Corrin, believes staying on his side will allow him to end the war. He acts this way both in Conquest Xander and Birthright Xander that you say are different, but to me, through this logic, are actually the same person. Though his support Xander may be the best version of him, I believe it to be the same as the story version just a side that doesn't actually speak up which is relatable if you want to talk about being relatable; people often are afraid or whatever the reason don't choose to speak their mind just like Leo and how I believe Xander is too. The difference between Corrin and Xander in Conquest is that Corrin knows his father is a physical monster while Xander just thinks he can think harshly like one, yet Xander thinks he still can end the war and bring peace with Garon as king. I think your opinion of story Xander is harsh, yes most of what you said about story Xander and support Xander are contradictory is true. Still, that doesn't mean they're different entirely. How many people can say they have said they're going to do something and have always done it especially something difficult like in Xander's case. If someone says they always have their lying because that would mean their perfect and no one is perfect. I Know this comment is long, but I had to say what I felt need to be said, since you didn't put these facts and ideas in your video. I like Xander and he is my favorite Lord protagonist along with Ike and Lucina. Even with your facts and opinions in your video, my own facts and opinions show that he is a great character despite your two part support science videos. Don't misunderstanding, I do agree with you on multiple points and liked your videos, but I still believe story Xander and support Xander to be the same and developed well. I also wouldn't blame treehouse for the bad writing because unless you played the Japanese version and understood the language, you wouldn't know the difference. The story is good not great, but at least okay. To me though, I liked the plot and it was good. I know that you didn't mention anything about the treehouse and the Japanese version being different or the plot being horrible, though you did say the writing was poorly written. That was directed to those I've seen say that in these comments and in other videos. If you even see this, I don't expect you to change your mind, but hope you at least consider my side unlike Xander did with Corrin. Once again I wish my comment didn't have to be so long, but just like story Xander it was the only way to be written.
I would guess the biggest flaw in the conquest (and Fates as a whole) story is the mismatch between Corrin's objectives and Xander's/the siblings" objectives... I mean, Corrin's decision to stay with Nohr is actually driven by her wishes to bring peace, whereas Xander is more focused on the Nohr against Hoshido plot. If only they could have arranged to make the siblings participate in the plot (which they don't because "Azura can't show them the reality through her pendant" and all that bs) i guess it would be easier to make the story's characters more relatable to the supports'
I think that the justice is an illusion speach was more broad being about how to live and less about what just happened. I personally think Xander is speaking more vaguely
After watching this, it makes sense why FE Heroes has Xander as a Grand hero battle. Hypocrisy of one's own values is a trait used with villians. note Grand Hero Battles have generally featured villians/antagonists that have appeared throughout fire emblem games. It makes me wonder if story Xander and Support Xander were deliberately written this way.
Oh Xander, oh Fates Honestly what you said at the end about how Story!Xander just filling in for plot convenience is exactly how I felt What happened to him is a shame but, uh, Fates, so I guess in a sense he was a little screwed from the start Maybe they made him the way he was in the story because.... I dunno...... keeping Support!Xander would deviate somehow? Like, Ryoma has his own issues and due to Garon being Garon it... sort of(?) led to the first committing... suicide.... Sort of....... the more I talk about it the more sketchy I feel especially since you know Fates dynamics way better than I do But uh - anyways maybe they felt like, getting to Birthright's plot, the game just....... couldn't end with Xander giving in because then Ryoma dies in one game and Xander doesn't die in the other and I dunno 😂 Oh Fates Anyways your videos are so amazing!!!!! And I agree on how great Xander (well the support one) is hahaha.... such a shame what happened to him in the story of... literally all three games...
Since it feels like you... well, didn't address any of the things I brought up in your first video about this, I'm going to repost it here for posterity's sake. Well, that and I'm hoping you'll actually read it this time ;p Sorry to actually argue this... but I have to come out and say I completely disagree with... well, nearly everything you just said regarding Xander. And ironically, it's for reasons that you had used in another character; Camilla - and that is the fact that Xander is arguably as much a broken bird as she or Peri were. To start with, Xander has, by way of his harsh upbringing under a monstrous father, effectively had to become a sociopath by necessity - he had to desensitize, depersonalize and compartmentalize himself to such an extent that, outside of a few examples, he really never lets the mask slip in regards to his vulnerabilities and regrets. After all, how can he afford to - he's the crown prince. And this is where I feel your arguments about "Story Xander".... well, it's where I feel you claims completely fall apart. In the story, the main times we see Xander are either on the battlefield or in the presence of his father Garon - whom, as Leo tells Corrin in Conquest, is someone they cannot afford ever appear as anything less than merciless or unfeeling clones of while in his presence. In fact, much of your argument actively ignores the fact that Xander’s supports, like all other characters, seem to take place inside the Deeprealms/Corrin’s astral plane, where he is as far removed and therefore save from Garon’s spies and prying ears as he can possibly be and thus the only place he can be unguarded. During the story missions and cutscenes, he’s either in Garon’s presence or the presence of Garon’s allies - positions he literally cannot afford to appear as anything else but the merciless prince, in much the same vein as how Subaki feels he can’t afford to appear as anything else but perfect when in public or how Corrin themselves feel throughout much of Conquest itself. Moreover, rather than "cowardly", Xander would arguably qualify more as what is known as a "Combat Pragmatist" - someone who's goal is victory regardless of the means; something that his supports actually reinforce as, according to his support chain with Leo, he was not someone gifted with immense talent like his younger brothers were. He had to work tooth and nail for it and ultimately became such a good warrior because he made use of any and every advantage he could get. Hell, the fact he's a horseback fighter rather than a front-line swordsman like Ryoma already indicated that there was a difference between the two on what was or wasn't acceptable to bring to a fight or what codes they abided by in regards to fairness in battle. Going off of that, it can also be pointed out that your “pre-established” aspects argue what Xander used to be like; that he used to be willing to get into disagreements with Garon, but it became less frequent as he had to prioritize the safety of his siblings over his pride and eventually even his humanity. In fact, between Xander’s supports with Corrin and his words in Conquest, it can be inferred that the times Corrin watched him train were back when he was still in Corrin’s shoes; unwilling to accept what Garon was doing and trying to change things from within, but unlike Corrin he was slowly beaten down by his inability to succeed at this task due to the fact that, as with his siblings, he couldn’t truly betray his father no matter what kind of monster he became and that, much like Azura with her aloofness, he slowly became the mask because he felt he had no choice. The “bravery he was talking about” has, by this point, been long since burnt out by depression and despair and the vain hope that, if he just finds a way to resuscitate their dying nation, their father may snap back to normal. In fact, even your claims about his doubts don’t match up, because Xander’s doubts were only ever directed towards whether Garon’s action were morally righteous or not - no matter how much he doubted Garon, he never actually seemed to believe that Garon ever intended anything other than Nohr’s well-being but was going about it in an amoral way. Hell, even his response to the Gangarli is never definitively defined as anything more than simple surprise rather then genuine suspicion - in fact, his surprise that the sword exploded in Conquest seems to indicate that, whatever he believed or suspected, he hadn’t hit the point where he thought Garon intended it as a suicide bomb, and it wasn’t until after that point that he no longer seemed surprised that Garon wanted Corrin to suffer. Additionally, Xander's reasons for going even further in Birthright were directly explained, in that it seems to mirror what was done for Saber Alter in the Fate/Stay Night's Heaven's Feel route - namely that he was being knowingly and deliberately severe towards Corrin so that, when Corrin faced him, they could strike him down with as little guilt as possible. Just as he had told Camilla in their supports, he is still serving as the pillar for his family - only in Birthright, he does so by being the obstacle Corrin must overcome. As you yourself said, his devotion to seeing Corrin happy was prevalent, only it manifested in a different way; the belief that, at that point, the most he could do was try to give Corrin as much reason as possible to defeat him so that she could cleanly sever ties with the least amount of pain. It’s effectively a permanent version of how he portrayed himself in battle with Corrin; he felt he had to take the fight completely seriously because, if Corrin couldn’t overcome him like that, how could Corrin possibly fend against the likes of Ryoma or survive battles that even Xander himself could struggle with? Hell, with how skilled Xander is in battle, it’s arguable that he wasn’t doing anything close to trying to injure Corrin in Chapter 3; if he were actually serious, he’d have taken Corrin’s head off then and there. Instead, it could be argued that Xander initiated a sword fight rather than just striking Corrin down wholesale as a deliberate move to stall for time so that Garon didn’t execute her instantly or so that Leo could get Rinkah and Kaze to safety - hell, his being there to see them off seems to imply he was indeed in on Leo’s plan, or at the very least wasn’t surprised by the outcome. If Xander hadn’t engaged Corrin himself, Garon likely would have struck - and unlike Xander, Garon wouldn’t have hesitated to kill Corrin instantly. The above argument extends to Revelations with Leo, in which Leo speaking his mind in the throne room where Garon’s spies may hear is not exactly an ideal course when three of the five Nohrian royals have abandoned the cause already. When it was in the war-table with people he trusted, Xander had no qualms about Leo speaking openly, but to speak such in Castle Krakenberg when their father is nowhere near as tolerant was just tempting fate, which Xander was less willing to do than Leo was by that point. Hell, it extends to Conquest as well in that Xander gives Corrin the warning about what betrayal means instead of just arresting them for treason there and then on the spot; he warns Corrin that their accusation threatens not just the whole family but the entire Nohrian kingdom if they’re wrong and that, as the crown prince, it’s his duty to family and country alike to not prioritize any single life over the whole, no matter who it is. And this isn’t even counting that it honestly is pretty jarring to suddenly have Corrin bring up these accusations of Garon now of all times, or the fact that he may fear Corrin’s regret over the deaths of their Hoshidan siblings might have driven them to try and kill Garon as some brash and reckless attempt at justice or revenge - it, in all honesty, comes across as yet another act of intentional harshness to test Corrin’s resolve for any signs of doubt, mixed with the ever-present denial of wanting to believe Garon is still savable and the sense that, if Corrin’s wrong, he won’t be able to save her because he’d be trading the entirety of his family and jeopardizing the kingdom for her single life. And yet, that he gives Corrin the chance to prove their claims despite knowing all this shows how much faith he has in them. He is harsh intentionally because it is honestly the most straightforward and effective way to test Corrin’s conviction before he bets Leo, Camilla, Elise and possibly all of Nohr on it, and that he goes through with it shows just how firm his faith really is in spite of having to wear that mask to proof-check it. His “sub-zero coldness” was, arguably, more to confirm that Corrin didn’t have any doubts about what they said.
(Continued) Furthermore, his loyalty to Garon was also addressed as a direct side-effect of the very same devotion to family you just now mentioned - in his mind, Garon was made cold and heartless because of the loss of his wife, all his his concubines and all his children save for the four royals, and had hoped that bringing salvation to Nohr (which was literally decaying due to Garon's mismanagement) through the conquest of Hoshido and acquisition of its resource-rich lands would be enough to start taking the burden off Garon's shoulders and start bringing back the father he'd known. For all the things Garon has done, Xander doesn’t want to see his father as “evil” so much as “broken” - just like he doesn’t condemn Peri or Camilla for their frequent acts of merciless and sometimes rampant murder, he rationalizes in his mind that Garon is just very much mentally ill. Is it an excuse? Yes, but it’s an understandable excuse, because it's born of the very thing that was always Xander’s strength and in this case is his weakness; an undying love of his family no matter who they are or what they’ve done. His father has become ruthless, cold and a tyrant in his eyes, but he refuses to think of him as evil so much as that he’s become hardened by losing his wife, his concubines and all his other children from the infighting of the political courts. He doesn’t even know Garon isn’t human anymore and thus can’t be saved - and it’s only when he does realize his father’s an imposter that he finally accepts the only thing he can do is put his father to rest. Ironically, for all his grim resignation, Xander never gave up the hope his father could come back, but realizing his father is dead already is what finally gets him to act on his conscience again. That his father was ruthless was, in Xander’s mind, because he was a broken man who was heading a dying country and rationalized it as that his father thought he *had* to be ruthless in order to secure Nohr’s future - that any hate Garon had for Corrin, it was out of *paranoia* for Corrin’s bloodline and their repeated defiance rather than malevolence and that, once Corrin proved themselves, Garon would accept them. It isn’t until the very end that he finally accepts his father simply isn’t the man he remembers, figuratively and literally, and that the war was in and of itself a completely pointless act of conquest; it isn’t until the *very end* when the truth is utterly undeniable that he accepts he’s been in denial about the lengths his father would go to even in desperation. You, for whatever reason, didn’t seem to take note of how Xander had been speaking in *past-tense* with Corrin about how he’d fight with his father; he hasn’t been that outspoken in years if Leo’s talk about their obfuscating their humanity from Garon is any indication. Up until that point, he sees his father as a very broken and ruthless *human*, but not a deliberately evil person - a believe perpetuated by his undying love and loyalty to family; the *very same defining character trait you repeatedly noted was a core aspect of his,* hence why I personally can’t understand how Xander’s response could be so surprising to you. Additionally, you have also made assumptions about how much Xander would or wouldn’t have been aware about - at the absolute most, it could be said that Xander knew Sumeragi died and Garon took Corrin away as a new child, but there’s nothing illustrating he knew Sumeragi was flat-out murdered. Even than, it comes down to the aforementioned belief that, if he can revive Nohr’s decayed state with the conquest of Hoshido, it may relieve Garon’s “burdens” enough for the man to finally start softening again - he ultimately decided to place his family’s well-being over moral righteousness and would continue to do so for years afterword; a choice that, as implied in Nyx’s supports, haunts him endlessly. In fact, if what he says in Nyx’s supports is to be believed, Xander actually has something of a slightly-suicidal mindset similar to Lancelot in the Fate/Stay Night series - that he might actually find it okay to die and be the martyr for Nohr if that becomes the only thing to do he’d actually succeed at. Furthermore, in his eyes, Corrin’s betrayal arguably *wasn’t* taken as “insidious” - if anything, Xander’s replies in Birthright imply that a lot of his harshness was so as to *reinforce* Corrin’s choice so that, even if Corrin was an enemy, they could have as little regrets as possible about their decision. If he *had* done what you suggested and said those things to Corrin in _Birthright,_ it would have impeded Corrin’s ability to let go of him and make peace with their choice. If anything, it could be argued that he loved them so much that he would rather let them see him as the enemy than to cause them further emotional grief by trying to make them undo their choice. He decides to accept Corrin’s choice for what it is and support it in the only way he can - by doing everything possible to make sure Corrin has no reason to regret it, or at least as little reason as possible (which, because of how overly-kind Elise was, ended up backfiring in the worst way possible). In all honesty, how Xander speaks in his dying moments of _Birthright_ ought to clearly illustrate a lot of his behavior, from his accusations of brainwashing to his declarations of killing, was just his way of making sure Corrin could move on from him with as few regrets as possible. It’s precisely *because* he understands Corrin’s wavering loyalties that, once Corrin makes a choice between the families, he will do his part to reinforce that choice - be it as the hero or the villain. It isn’t hypocritical nor ignorant; it is him playing the role he’s been given. In fact, again, taking from Nyx’s supports, it’s possible that Xander being aware his cause is inherently unjust is why he would push all the harder to ensure Corrin would have no regrets about striking him down; much like he comes to see killing Garon as releasing his torment in _Conquest,_ Xander may have come to see Corrin killing him in _Birthright_ as a deserved punishment that he would be very much willing to accept by that point. He literally can’t afford to stop being the villain in Birthright by the time of Castle Krakenberg’s invasion, because Corrin’s resolve would just be weakened - but it ultimately backfired because Elise’s kind-heartedness was every bit the equal to his determination to basically martyr himself on Corrin’s sword. Hence why I, harsh as it is to say, must instead argue that *your* argument is the one that “completely crumbles” in Birthright; because it completely ignores the fact that Xander was basically *trying* to make Corrin hate him, if not outright kill him, by that point. By the time of his final battle in _Birthright,_ Xander is arguably to Corrin what Saber Alter was to Shirou - he does not consider himself as having a future anymore and he does not want to be saved; only provide himself to Corrin as a final obstacle so that they can both end this and have some degree of peace. Elise dying in the crossfire of it just worsens his self-hate and makes him full-on suicidal - to the point that even his in-game stats decrease sharply to reflect his utter loss of will to live and desire to basically commit suicide by throwing the fight. To put it simply… by that point, “daddy dearest” was the *furthest thing from his mind* after Elise died, and to say that is, in my opinion, completely and utterly disregarding the established details about Xander’s character that you yourself said were so important. It is because Xander *did* “see the light” that he realized that, in his desire to be Corrin’s goalpost to move past without guilt, he had tormented Elise unwittingly - and the guilt of that meant that, no matter what Elise’s wishes, he simply could not forgive himself enough to keep living with her blood on his hands, and dying by Corrin’s hand was his idea of having justice be served. In that moment, the weight of his actions completely crushed him - and having justice be dealt to him by Corrin is the only fate he feels he deserves by that point. Honestly speaking, to say “the only logical conclusion is that he still has faith in Garon and the war” is about the *furthest* logical conclusion I think could be come to, personally speaking.
(Continued) The only time his actually forgoing any of his feelings and actively hating Corrin is true is in _Revelations,_ where Corrin not siding with *anyone* triggers Xander immensely, to the point where even the hot-blooded Ryoma looks the sane and tame one by comparison. And the reason for that is simple; Corrin betrayed *everyone.* By that, I mean that, because of how much of Xander’s character is based on love for his family, Corrin siding with their birth family would actually be more forgivable than them just going rouge and turning on everyone - after all the horrors Xander himself has done purely out of loyalty to the man his father used to be, he would have an easier time accepting Corrin’s choice to fight for their blood family than he would them betraying both blood family and adopted family. In _Revelations,_ it’s precisely because Corrin appears to reject all forms of family tie - and therefore reject every concept Xander held dear - that Xander is so strikingly more volatile and hostile in _Revelations_ then in _Birthright_ - whereas Xander has lived his whole life for the sake of his family, Corrin’s betraying any and every family they have is practically the anti-thesis of his beliefs and makes him feel that Corrin has not simply left them but turned their backs on family and love in general, thus electing a more extreme response. It also arguably causes him to become more dependent on the belief that his father is salvageable - Corrin’s actions cut pretty deeply in _Revelations_ and threaten the very “family love above all else, even right or wrong_ beliefs he’s always held, and forces him to contend with serious doubts that start cracking his mask. However, unlike in _Birthright,_ he eventually isn’t able to deny the doubts anymore when Garon flat-out declares he *wants* to destroy Nohr outright; the prevention of which, and by extension the preservation of his family, were the only things keeping him anchored to Garon, as it’s only after this that he realizes his father isn’t the man he claims to be. Than, after the revelation of the whole “revenants” thing (dead people being controlled by Anankos), he finally seems to piece two and two together and realize the Garon he served wasn’t really his father and it, like in _Conquest,_ spurns him to act on his sense of right once more. On top of that, none of this even begins to cover Xander’s obligations to the kingdom of Nohr itself - which would be dragged into chaos in and of itself if the Crown Prince was being so openly rebellious of their father. It’s heavily implied that whatever kingdom Corrin abandons takes a major hit to their morale, to the point that infighting among the royalty would be political suicide - and after the hell that was the Nohrian courts (where Leo, Camilla and Elise in supports claim they were little more than pawns for the many wives of Garon against the other children and wives), Xander in particular would have plenty of reason to not want to tip the scales in a way that would send the already-decaying kingdom into chaos. In fact, according to the extended materials and production notes, one of the whole reasons the people of Nohr were so supportive of Garon’s invasion of Hoshido was because Nohr was in the midst of a resource crisis (seemingly famine from low crops) due to Garon’s own mismanaging of Nohr. This reason for the war was sadly taken out-of-focus in the story of the game, but it still seems to be the publicly-given reason for why Nohr was invading Hoshido; they wanted their rich farmlands to revitalize themselves with. Given the fragile state Nohr would be in (and even worse if they were losing), Xander arguably wasn’t in a position to just start causing dissension. It isn’t until after the truth about Garon is revealed as that Xander finally realizes Garon didn't wanting Hoshido’s resources to save Nohr; he just wanted to conquer everything in sight, hence why the conquest was ultimately needless. Ergo, contextually speaking, I think you’re wrong in saying he ever had a choice - he really *didn’t* when you take everything into account, because no action he could have feasibly taken could have resulted in anything but losing the only family he had left after all the others (all his step-siblings and step-mothers) died from the political infighting that was caused after Queen Arete (or rather, the influence of Anankos when he followed her) arrived into the Nohrian Royalty. And then we have the end of _Birthright,_ where by then Xander’s goals have shifted from “I will be Corrin’s enemy so that they have no regrets” to “I will be Corrin’s enemy so that he can kill me and in doing so get justice for all my sins” - his choice is no longer about a lack of opportunity or by obligation, but by the fact that he no longer considers himself deserving of anything else but death at Corrin’s hands as a way of, as any prince should, taking responsibility for their country’s sins and taking the hit in it’s stead. Even though Elise could forgive him, Xander couldn’t forgive himself by that point, and so after her death his desire seemed to be to martyr himself after losing all faith in himself to lead Nohr, letting it have a clean slate. It is precisely because he wants best for his people that he feels someone who isn’t worthy of them - i.e., himself - should be punished for his part in failing them and in no longer being worthy of them; it’s precisely because he cares about them that he feels they don’t deserve a “failure” like himself leading them, and that, for Nohr’s sake, he should die for his failure to save and protect it. Even at the very end, he acted as Crown Prince - he fought and died in battle even though he was so grief-stricken that he likely wanted to just run himself through then and there; his position as Crown Prince meant he couldn’t just kill himself; he felt he had to be killed so as not to disgrace Nohr further while having justice be obtained for the sins he caused. He considered everything to be the result of his own failure - that he wasn’t strong or good enough to do what he should have done, much like how Corrin felt in _Conquest_ when failing to save Ryoma - and that, unlike Camilla and Leo, he didn’t have either the privilege or right or backing down; he made his bed and he decided it only right that he lay in it, and Elise’s attempt to save him only made it worse. His people, in his mind, deserve better than him - they deserve Corrin and Leo, not himself. Hence why I feel that, for you to say his actions were “so far from the last thing he should have done" is, in my opinion, to *completely and utterly misinterpret both Xander’s feelings and the position he was in.* Hell, even *Corrin,* despite their remarkable naiveté and arguable thick-headinesses, seemed to (eventually) recognize how much collateral damage would be caused simply by trying outright open resistance against Garon, with Azura’s monologue following the Kistune Hamlet cutting to the heart of the matter; Corrin, like Xander, cared too much for his home and the lives of his siblings to risk them by angering Garon, for fear that the king would take said rage out not on them but on those they care about. I’ll be the first to admit it could have been executed or shown far better, but the whole reason Corrin seemed to finally go along with Garon’s invasion in _Conquest_ is because they concluded that conventional resistance would just damage Nohr and the family; they had to wait until they were in a position to reveal the truth and stop Garon in a way that wouldn’t cause Nohr to collapse or risk the family just being slated for execution - which, sadly, came at great cost to Hoshido. It is the same with Xander all throughout the story - not wanting Nohr or his family to suffer consequence for his personal feelings serves as yet another reason he cannot bring himself to openly opposed Garon; they are more important to him than his pride or even his humanity. So, in closing... I cannot help but feel that you have, in no uncertain terms, completely and utterly misinterpreted Xander by mistakingly thinking the dissonance between his mask in the story and his true self in the supports wasn't intentional, when by all accounts it's what makes him a multifaceted character to begin with. For every argument you made to why “Story Xander” is bad, it’s contradicted by something you had literally just said in the supports with the siblings. Hell, it could actually be argued that you outright didn’t even try to connect the two, let alone try to contemplate how and why the complexities of his character would apply, and that some of your conclusions ignore points you yourself made. Chances are that I will be making comments like this in your other videos, so look out for those. And sorry in advance if I sound or sounded rude in these or will at further points, but I tend to get pretty rant-ty about this stuff, so brace yourselves.
(Concluded) Simply put, Xander in every incarnation is the *same character* but with different sides of him emphasized: - in _Birthright,_ his sense of patriotism takes the forefront when Nohr begins to crumble to Hoshido, eventually becoming martyrdom and redemption-by-death-in-battle. - In _Conquest,_ his sense of devotion takes the forefront as Nohr begins to get a stronger footing in the war, the safety and integrity of Nohr’s people and his family taking precedence. - In _Revelation,_ his sense of family takes the forefront as he sees sooner what his father is, initially deeply disgusted by the idea that Corrin would abandon any family and love in general but eventually recognizing and acknowledging Corrin’s reasons and, upon learning the truth of things, sides with him and even accepts the Hoshidan royalty as distant siblings or at the very least as friends. - In the Supports, we simply see the sides of Xander that suppresses when on the battlefield or in the presence of his Father or other Nohrian forces; the insecurities, the doubts, the compassion he’s forced to stifle and everything else. We also see the difference between his demeanors on the battlefield and in private get referenced, between his info-sheet describing him as “the most intimidating man in the army” and Sakura flat-out saying that his stern appearance scares her. In conclusion Gast, I apologize if this ended up being far too wordy, but it in all honestly feels more like you played two different *games* rather than proved there were two different Xander’s. At no point does what Xander say actually contradict his beliefs, nor did his values actually change or conflict. I apologize in advance if this sounds rude, but, honestly speaking, it feels like a lot of your claims are carelessly made, if not outright contradictory in and of themselves, since everything I cited is something that can be perceived in-game, and I personally believe you would have to be deliberately misreading the near-entirety of the game’s portrayal of him to have come to the the beliefs you came to. Honestly speaking, it’s not hard to see they’re the same character - in fact, I actually believe you’d have to try extremely hard *not* to see them. Again, I’m sorry if I’m sounding rude, but that’s honestly what I believe. As I've said before, I'll probably have similar breakdowns and/or disagreements with you when or if I get to your other videos... but as it stands, this is likely the one that I disagree with the most wholeheartedly.
YYYEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!! ELIWOOD!!! He's my third favourite male lord. And he has to be *The strongest minded Character IN ALL OF FIRE EMBLEM*. And I truely think that.
The inherit problem with comparing the two Xanders is that Support Xander never has to undergo conflict as Story Xander does, there's not much to directly compare thus a lot of your points fall back on "I'm sure Support Xander would do this in this situation". You can definitely say there's a contrast between the two but claiming contradictions is a bit of a stretch with only support Xander to bounce off of. You do make some interesting points without doing this that I think would be interesting to debate but characters can be dynamic, and separating them into actions and words isn't a good enough argument to claim a contradiction in character, especially since the two are literally worlds apart.
Except that by killing Zola and his men, he also prevented a war crime from being committed? Perfidy is considered one of the most heinous war crimes in many settings and in our own world.
great analysis. i like Xander , but i knew something was... off about him in the campaign. i didnt know how to word it. but you explained it really well. watching your vids has helped me opened my eyes to be more observant not just about fates, but any other media work and my own work . thank youu ! (>^-^)>
![Xander: How Fire Emblem Fates' Writing Ruined Its Best Character. (1/2) [Support Science #7]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Y1kJbP4A4Gc/mqdefault.jpg)
![Xander: How Fire Emblem Fates' Writing Ruined Its Best Character. (1/2) [Support Science #7]](/img/tr.png)
![Tharja: How Awakening Made a Good... Bad Character. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #14]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/DGsK7bhfLrg/mqdefault.jpg)
![NYX: an AMAZING character held back by Fates's bad habits. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/xh_ihGQizYc/mqdefault.jpg)
![Cordelia: Faultless Mind, Fractured Heart. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #11] Fire Emblem: Awakening](/img/n.gif)
WHATS GOOD MY NOT-BEANSTERS.
Thanks for watching and stuff :)
Hopefully my scripted work will be more consistent
I also made a Patreon!
www.patreon.com/user?u=5895386
Regards!
What if I am a bean
Ghast Station we sprinkler boyz now
Dude you should get your own character portrait that shows up while your talking you would be more fire emblem ish.
Ghast
Having defended story Xander to an extent, let me also play Devil's Advocate against support Xander in this video's comments...
What, exactly is the depth of Xander? That he cares for country AND family? The complaint people make when they attack Xander as a cardboard cutout of "Fer muh HONOUR!" knightly stereotypes is... pretty much exactly that.
Fire Emblem leans pretty heavily upon archetypes even in the best of times, partly justifiably because, outside of supports, there's little time or room to flesh out the dozens of characters in a single game in the main story, and since characters can die, they basically have to be introduced and removed from all plot relevance within a single chapter. (Which is why the whole idea of permadeath directly conflicts with the type of JRPG melodramatic storytelling that Fire Emblem obviously increasingly is focused upon... but that's another argument.)
Xander and Ryoma, meanwhile, are basically the textbook definition of their particular archetypes, which is why it can frequently seem like they're practically the same person simply put in different contexts. Ryoma is THE Samurai, as in the myth that was created in the Edo period after Samurai stopped really being warriors. You know, the one about unceasing loyalty to liege and duty and honor and such. (Actual samurai were more mercenaries, and landless ones could only get paid while actually AT war, and were barred from any job, so they were actually a bloodthirsty bunch of brigands often pushing their lords into war at the threat of mutiny because they'd either pillage the lands of the neighboring lords or pillage their own lord's land because they gotta get paid. Even in war, they were more likely to headhunt enemy nobles with bounties on their heads then flee battle after getting a head than meaningfully contribute because getting paid was their only priority, not honor.) Ryoma is the family patriarch who has to walk the fine line between "Ninjo to Giri" (Duty to liege and family). Xander, meanwhile, is just the western fantasy version with everything about "samurai" and "Japanese culture" crossed out and replaced with "knight" and "European culture, as Japan pop culture sees it" (with the Knight in Shining Armor being as much a myth as the Honorable Samurai was)... plus, you know, the whole being more compromised by his position and the bad writing he receives that forces him to hold the idiot ball an awful lot.
Put directly, both Xander and Ryoma are the perfect platonic Jungian archetypes of male virtue in their own respective cultures, (at least as far as Japan understands it, because Xander still comes off a bit more of the embodiment of Japanese virtues than European ones, just sporting curly blonde hair while doing it...).
Where is the depth in saying that, "oh, he looks like he selflessly serves only his liege who is his family, but he actually selflessly cares for his family, as well!"? Camilla's supports merely reveal that he's perfect in his Ninjo AND his Giri... which is what a perfect samurai eternally strives to do. Corrin's supports about devoting himself to training just mean he's sublimating his own emotions to fulfill his duties to his liege... just as a perfect samurai does.
Xander is a stock-standard Jungian archetype of male virtues, where male virtue is defined as having "cool" emotions. That is, men are expected in traditional storytelling to be virtuous when they suppress all their own personal emotion in pursuit of whatever duty or other specific virtue they are supposed to embody, such as 'honor' or 'courage' or whatever. By contrast, villainous males have "hot" emotions, acting wildly and with naked emotion pursuing their own self-satisfaction, such as Hans or Iago. By contrast, the feminine archetype of virtue, the Good Mother, is defined by "warm" emotions. They use their emotions selflessly to nurture. The feminine archetype of sin, meanwhile, has "cold" emotions, suppressing their emotions to pursue their objectives. And yes, that's the most flagrant double standard one can produce. Male virtues are sins when in a woman, and feminine virtues become sins when a man expresses them. That's why Iago looks so feminine to show he's evil right off the bat, because it's classically trained into audiences that feminine-looking men are obviously evil even when he hasn't really done anything, while Hans has to actually ACT evil to show his true colors. This is also why Leo and Takumi are considered flawed princes in-universe... because they are human and show emotions that are sometimes even "hot", and therefore not as perfect and robotic as their elder brothers.
I say this because Camilla and Hinoka make good contrasts by not just being their default archetypes.
Camilla is the Good Mother archetype with all her virtues cranked up to such ludicrous extremes that they actually become a subversion of the archetype. She's nurturing to the point of smothering. She's selfless and protective of her family to the point of flying into an insane berserker rage at the hint of disrespect to any of her family. She is focused upon her family to such a myopic degree that she literally does not care about what happens to anyone or anything outside her immediate family and pseudo-family of retainers.
And you can see how heavily Fire Emblem leans on these traditional roles when Xander talks to Camilla. Camilla encourages Xander to be more "warm" and nurturing (I.E. fulfill some of the traditionally feminine virtues) the way that he clearly has a willingness to do, and he refuses because he says it's not his place to do so solely and explicitly because he is a male, and he therefore HAS to be a stern, emotionless patriarch that never shows warmth to his own family, whereas it is Camilla's role to be warm and nurturing solely and explicitly because she is female.
Hinoka takes the Japanese Yamato Nadeshiko twist upon the good mother. (The Yamato Nadeshiko combines a more militant ethos of the samurai in with the Good Mother's nurturing side to ask of them a similar denial of self and militancy that they ask of samurai, even if to a lesser degree, along with their nurturing side. Basically, it's ironically just a "more masculine" feminine ideal.) Hinoka, however, has basically thrown all her traditional femininity to the wind in pursuit of those more militant, duty to family first side of the Yamato Nadeshiko, becoming a "tomboy" "warrior princess". Militant, physical protection of her family from all direct threats has overtaken her more traditional service to family through emotional support and protection from emotional threats.
This is what makes Hinoka's support with Camilla so interesting. The Hinoka who gave up nearly all her traditional nurturing femininity in pursuit of one extreme in actually militantly protective femininity actually stops and feels what she has given up for the first time when she sees how Camilla and Corrin behave together, and she feels a sense of jealousy over how hyper-feminine Camilla can be, resulting in Hinoka trying to learn to sew to try to regain some of that... for lack of a better word, balance in the feminine ideal. It's still playing firmly, solidly in the bounds of what are feminine virtues, but it's actually saying something about how those virtues are a complex balancing act that are nearly impossible to pull off, even among characters absolutely defined by them to the exclusion of all else.
Of the four eldest royals, Hinoka is really the only one whose personality actually tries to say anything or seriously deviate from the norm, and the only other one who is close is Camilla. Xander and Ryoma really are just stock characters from Central Casting with all the default responses to every question left intact.
Oh, and one more thing...
Xander had to die at the end of Birthright for the same reason as Ryoma having to die at the end of Conquest: It would be too dishonorable for them to live. Keep in mind, these guys are basically the fetishized ideals of Samurai honor (even without Xander even being a Samurai), so it's absolutely demanded that they die in battle before their liege comes to harm or else commit seppukku to atone if they failed to die before that point. Living after having been in charge of a losing army would be a shame greater than they would be expected to bear. Again, pure Japanese values system at play.
The reason why they throw Elise onto the bonfire with him is that by that point, Xander has been played as a plot prop for why they can't do the sane thing and not kill each other so many times he is probably completely unsympathetic to the player who has only played Birthright, so his death would likely not have any real impact. Hence, they have to trot out the character *EXPLICITLY* designed to be the single most concentrated bundle of sympathetic traits in the game outside of maybe her Hoshidan counterpart imouto character, and butcher her in the most protracted and melodramatic way possible to milk at least some FEELS out of the scene, even if you personally hate Xander... and the fact that Xander has to apparently both be directly responsible for that AND still spit on her final, most selfless and sympathetic wish just further cements his hatedom is mere collateral damage to the authors of Fire Emblem's writing because FEELS achieved!
Some people complain that Awakening was poorly written, but Fates makes Awakening seem like freakin' Shakespeare.
Awakening's problem is mostly pacing. With a better pacing, the story could be far better. Fates story is simply bad.
@@deathzexion Also the Valm arch was pretty pointless
@@androxity8615 Yeah, that's true.
FalseZ
Yeah, at least the writing was mostly consistent in Awakening lol
Honestly that Xander speech is amazing writing, truly thought provoking for a morally gray story, like geneology. The problem is that fates is the exact opposite, it's clear black and white, and the fact that Xander gives it makes it worse. I could see Leo giving the speech. Ultimately, it's tragic to see a genuine good piece of writing, a diamond in the rough if you will, be completely wasted on fates.
I really wouldn't say Leo should give that speech, because it would honestly make no sense since Leo not in a position where he could think of a speech like this. Leo's not the type of character that prides himself on justice and honor after all.
I was thinking Leo, because Leo seemed like a character with a more grounded view on reality. He seemed like he understood that life has no true heroes or villains better than everyone else. Then again, since fates' writing sucks, he probably says something to contradict his character. Besides, the character that gives the speech should not pride himself on justice and honor, because the speech explains how there is no true justice, just morally gray decision-making. Thus, Leo seems like the most realistic and practical character to do it.
Vijay C. There truth to that, but to me I've always thought that both Xander and Leo realist. Even though Xander prides himself on justice and honor, he's still aware of the reality around him just like his brother. Difference is that Xander will become the king, so he has the ability to change the way things are in Nohr. The only why most people wouldn't notice this because of the writing that's put into the story.
Vijay C. Not really, Xander's speech is pretty bad even in philosophical viewpoint. You can't say justice is an illusion and then add things "what you know is right" and "evil men" in your speech. The whole thing about the grand ethical question of "what is justice?" isnt something you can easily say "it's an illusion" without first giving a definition to the word "justice". It's a bad speech that only exists to push the notion that Fates is a "Grey and gray morals" story when it's clearly black and white with its heroes and villains.
What he means by the word "justice" is the perfect victory where the bad guys are all killed and the good guys all saved. He's saying that no matter what you try to accomplish, innocent people will end up dying but you can't let that discourage you from fighting for a greater cause. Xander isn't a nihilist, he has values of honor and justice, he just accepts that in real life, good people will suffer despite your best intentions.
So your saying that Support Xander would have just rebelled against his crazy father and his allies of crack heads?
Yeah I'll go with support Xander on this one.
The strange thing is, the German version of the game's cover hinted at a rebellion.
It stated that there is a conspiracy you would fight from within.
He actually does in the Crown of Nibelung manga
@@jedyzichterman358 Oh Cool.
The "Justice is an illusion" speech may have been better coming from Camilla who, as messed up as she is, because she soley values her concept of her family and status quo, clearly having no stock in good or evil if she can keep the family structure she relies on and reacting with violence when she can't.
Joel Sasmad I've always thought that Justice is an ilussion was an Assassins Creed reference.
....welp next i be hearing suicide and depression is from vampire story....
YES THIS IS SARCASM
Xander has the Replicate skill
Funny bc in my game... he does :) That's what happens if you befriend Kaze
Story Xander should have listened to the Prothean. "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
"Throw the Xander out of the airlock, Commander. There is still time!"
Silence will be your answer.
This would of been a perfect opurtunity to call the video "tale of two xanders" and you blew it.
There would also OF been a perfect opportunity to learn the difference between "could of" and "could have", because this is such a frequent error. "Could of" doesn't mean the same thing even if it's pronounced similarly.
"Could of" honestly sounds like an accent thing. Sort of like it's coming out as "could 'ave."
TheBreakingBenny there would've also been*
Tale of two noodles
What Fates lacked was a solid setting. Booting up Echoes, the first thing that struck me was how well-defined the setting was and what a fine setup the plot had. Fates didn't have that in my eyes. There was no real history or definition to the two countries. I sure hope the next FE has a better plot.
So, did you get your wish with Fodlan?
I mean at least everyone makes sense in why they fight in three houses
@@TrueBladeSoulThree Houses had its own questions, but at least it felt like it was trying
You have no idea how long I waited for this. Actually it was like a month.
You pointed out something I never really thought about with the whole Zola deal. In hindsight (and maybe even without the hindsight), freeing the Hoshidian royals was stupid as all hells. Sure, I could understand if they had wanted to stop Zola from doing needless and dirty killings and whatnot, but that doesn't mean they HAD to let them free.
With the people who pretty much run the Hoshido army trapped, walking into the capital and seizing the castle would be no big deal; granted, Yukimura and the soldiers still remain, but they would lack a lot of guidance and manpower without these four.
By freeing them now they gotta do MORE fighting, MORE killing, on BOTH sides. And not only Xander, Corrin and Azura are a pair of idiots here: their objective was to win the war with as few casualties as possible, but by letting them go when they had them it's pretty much a "Yeah you're free to go now, we'll kill you later".
They DO end up taking Sakura and Yukimura as prisoners. But apparently that's not ok unless you beat up their shit first and kill some dozens of soldiers.
It's true that convincing Garon to keep them alive as prisoners would be the main issue, especially Ryoma. But hell, you could argue him that they could be used as hostages against the remaining Hoshidian army.
Then Corrin and Azura lure Garon into the throne, his true form is revealed, they defeat him and all the royal siblings live. You don't even fight zombie pineapple. Hell, if they had Takumi captive then Azura might have managed to save him from Anankos in time.
But all that couldn't happen because they chose to free them when they had them... then went on to capture them again themselves. Except they are kinda hard to catch without killing them, so you kinda blew your chances to end this mess a bit more neatly.
So this was not only probably the hugest fuck up of Xander in Conquest, but also of Corrin and Azura. Did these two kids have their priorities in order?
You could pretty much say that they are "playing war".
This comment ended up longer than I expected but realizing such fuck up really fired me up, I know you all will understand.
In any case, great video! I enjoy these support analysis you do and hope they become more frequent in the future.
Also, Crown Prince Master Ninja Elise is best Xander. Do not try to argue this.
(Lol didn't read it)
Xander acting like Garon isn't actually that bad a thing. If done well of course.
As you said, some of Xander's actions, like his tendency to resort to violence to get what he wants, show he's more like Garon than he wishes to admit. This could have been a good development tool for him, as either he or Corrin makes the realisation which leads to some introspection and development. It could have made for some interesting family moments in conquest, and could have made his turn in Birthright work better. This idea needs a lot more tweaking of course, but if done well could have made for interesting character development
Replying to a 3 year old comment is pointless, but whatever.
I do think that your idea absolutely could work, but I'd like my own proposition that I think could probably make both stories way more interesting and gray-er. Have Ryoma be the main character of Birthright, and have Xander be the main character of Conquest. Relegate Corrin to the cast of side characters. I feel like making this change allows for a lot more potential in the writing than restricting themselves by making Corrin the focus. You can still have Corrin in both, heck you could even still do the sibling thing with them, but make them a side character of similar importance to Conrad, Hubert, Lucina, Caeda, or even Frederick. If Fanservice Emblem Warriors taught me anything, it's that Corrin makes for a really good side character. This, I feel, offers better ideas than the heavily restricted way they went about the game by having us only see through Corrin's eyes.
@@simeonrice6047 replying to a 3 year old comment is always a gamble as to whether they reply.
As for your idea, it could work, and it could definitely be viable. My main issue is that by doing so, it kinda goes against the core concept of the game, that being choosing between families and the consequences that follow. while it could work, it's hard not to make it look like you're just picking a story, as opposed to making a conscious, ingame decision.
Adding Gray to the story would be easier if Nohr wasn't written as a blatantly evil kingdom and Hoshido as a pure and innocent kingdom.
Having said that, your idea can work, and in a way has been done in three houses. Byleth is the avatar and the common thread, but each route is effectively the Main Lord's story. Applying that here could work similarly, Corrin makes the choice and we still follow them, but Xander and Ryoma (maybe Azura for revs) are the main character of that route.
Tho one issue there is that these are meant to be the big brothers, the strongest of the lot. They can't be that if they're main lords, they need room to grow.
Hope I don't come off as bashing your idea, as I said it could work depending on how the story is written. Either way, to make everything work properly, the story of fates needs a little more attention
my biggest hope is that Berkut becomes the story Xander that we deserved.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 oh don't worry he will greatly!
I think he does, plus there is a memory scene about him (without spoiling)
Don't worry, Berkut is pretty good.
ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Don't worry, he does. Kinda in a crazy way but yeah.
CANT WAIT
Berkut is coming bois.....
you should do a joke episode about Anna
OwO 'Why Anna is the only waifu option' video or 'Anna's "family" ' conspiracy.
He could also make a video about the “quality” of FE13/14’s avatar-only supports
Additionally, the fact that you can S-Support Xander and have kids with him makes him threatening Corrin right before they confront Garon even more fucked up. Like, that's the mother of your kids, and the dialogue doesn't change to accompany that change, he's just the same ole story Xander, paranoid of the one person responsible for this war ending up the way it is
"Justice is a Convenience" You don't know how hilarious I found that sentence
Xander: Justice is an Illusion
Me: Ah shit, he's a Death Note fan
I think it would have worked well to give some of Xander's story dialogue and beliefs to Leo, the more cynical sibling. Especially the Justice is an Illusion part, which parallels Leo's earlier spiel about only disobeying Garon indirectly.
Story Xander acts like Henry in awakening, being perfectly fine with killing his own people in order to prolong a war that could have been ended much earlier, except Xander is framed as a good guy.
...Henry doesn't give rat's ass about ending the war quickly.
He doesn't care about his own people, he says as much in support in
Ricken and the ONLY reason why he warns Panne about the assassination plot was only since he figured it would "waste a perfectly fun war."
Did you even play Awakening?
Henry does care for those who he has formed an emotional bond with (hence why all his paired endings say that he was a surprisingly good father), but yeah, he does not care about enidng the war quickly, he enjoys the bloodshed it causes
By his people I clearly meant Plebians.
I really hope you are talking about Peri, at least Henry has a soul
Illusion of Quality that's why he says prolong. Did you even read his comment?
As I say often to my friends, the support conversations are the best part of fates
I'm not too sure if Xander letting Zola have his way would have been best for "ending the war". Zola planned to kill the royals, making martyrs out of them and inflaming the Hoshidan fervor in the war, likely causing more deaths. If Xander were written like his support counterpart, he would have killed Zola and his men out of pragmatism, not honor, and maybe keep secret custody of the royals.
Imagine this....hoshido cant use dragon vein anymore and its a big deal according to the game terraforming especially in strategy in make conquest a walk in the park for garon
I kinda disagree... Sure, they would become martyrs, but the Hoshidans would lose all their remaining royals and commanding officers, that is a HUGE blow and I doubt their army and their nation would have recovered from it
If anything, him saving the Hoshidan royalty should've led to him attempting to being talks of peace. Not just defending honor, but setting a better example for his people that violence and war is not the only way to get things done
5:10 "Kill" in the loosest sense of the word, considering Corrin is always making sure to tell us that we spare literally everyone we face.
I believe Xander's speech can be summarized with a simple phrase "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
These support sciences are super awesome and well-made Ghast. Keep up the great work!
Also, who's next? I vote for Jill.
+Lord Tullus 9 [Puffy Sprinkles] Eliwood?? I think you mean Eligood!
Yeah, now I'm hyped.
Samus The Goddess
*Eliweed
Samus The Goddess El Wood
Can't wait for Eliwood! He's pretty underrated
Xander really was pretty interesting in many ways.
Xander reminds me so much of Prince Rhaegar honestly.
I liked this set of videos, gives me a new prospective on Xander. I had wondered why Xander was popular, but I was going solely off of Story Xander. Story Xander had disinterested me to the point to where I was not very interested in getting to know Support Xander.
I feel like they could've written Peri a lot better. Keep her killer persona but instead of a child like speech, maybe a sexual or flirtatious one. They could've made all of the men and A+ supports about her persona, problems from it, and how they only keep her because she's a good soldier. They could've had the supports where they try to make her a good person, or try to make her understand that killing is wrong, but when it gets to the S support, Peri pulls them in with flirty and sexual speech that they have a one night stand. That way the child is made but they didn't really want to marry her, as she bat shit crazy, but because of this, in the credit screen, they could've written Peri to never kill again through their husbands help. That would've made a better Character and side story.
Edit: After ruminating on this topic for some time, I came to realise that saying Xander is unreasonable in BR chap 26 is a bit unfair, because his intentions are clear even though the writing is pretty bad. *He planned to die by Corrin's hands from the start. You can see this intent from his prior conversation with Peri and Laslow. He was planning a suicide-by-cop because he knows he won't be able to live with killing one of his siblings.* (Which unfortunately is what happens anyways. Whoops?) One of his support conversations even have him agree that he had thought about ending his life to atone for all the people he killed in the war.
I mean, think about it rationally. Even if he did end up felling Corrin in battle, because he told his retainers to stay out of it and went alone, he'd probably end up getting killed by the Hoshidan forces anyways. *Regardless of who wins the duel he fully expects to die there and then.*
But the duel didn't go as he planned, didn't it? Elise got in the way, and her death broke the poor man. *If he was simply resigned before, he really wants to die now.* That's why he puts on a show and told Corrin to get up and fight him, purposefully goading them to battle him. *Really, he's just screaming "I can't live like this."*
As to why he's so headstrong about defending Garon, well, he's the crown prince of Nohr! To let a group of people who want to assassinate their king pass would be treason of the highest order. Add that to the fact that he held up hope for so long that the father he knew is not truly gone (wrong as it was, even he knew that in the gulf of his heart), it's really not too unreasonable to chalk it up to stress due obligations and years of neglect.
*In a nutshell, Birthright Xander is a man claimed by the tolls of all the lives he took in war and an abusive father, pushing him to cling to his beliefs like a drowning man to a raft. The fact that so many misinterpreted his character is another unfortunate example of good character, bad writing.*
Personally I would have done what Xander did in the situation with Zola. It is a dishonorable and cowardly thing to do. Zola captured Archduke Izana and put him in a jail cell within his own home. He tricked the Hoshidans into letting down their guard and TOOK their weaponry and locked them away. He planned to sentence them all to death, one after another. Zola then confirmed his even worse intentions when he wondered if Sakura would cry when it was her time to die, meaning he thought this whole thing to be FUN for him and hardly gave a thought to the war! He also says he wants to receive a title for his efforts. He was genuinely just thinking about himself. If the Nohrian Royals allowed this to happen the aftermath of the war would have been even WORSE. Hoshido would have had no rightful heirs and fell into chaos and destruction without a leader. But with Xander's decision to save them two Hoshidans survived the war and were able to begin to restoration of Hoshido.
agreed i quite frankly see it as a reasonable and support xander would probably do the exact same i think after support xander is just xander who is with people he trusts or corrin trusts.
It's hurts to watch this, in a good way.
**Says that they love you without actually ever showing that or doing anything to back that up.**
Sounds exactly like my mother. And my father. And the rest of my "family." Oh well. Great video!
This is why Peri is one of his retainers. Story Xander recruited her, not Support Xander haha
Super late to the party but I was thinking you might want to check out the story xander in Linkmstr's English patched playthrough. It doesn't necessarily fix all the problems you've pointed out but I find the original story xander is more ambiguous and there's a feeling of unspoken fear behind his actions. Maybe a fear of loosing the siblings he has left if he disobeys the King. Anyways just some food for thought.:)
edit: especially check out the differences in the chapter 24 justice speech, that one is amazing
Link?
Please do a duessel support science it would be awesome
I have it in my sights!
finally. our lord and savior Shawn conory
These two Xanders are creating a black hole in my head with how ridiculously different they are.
Could you do Ryoma next so we get a sense of contrast between the two? Because their personalities seem pretty same-y.
Eliwood is next.
But Ryoma is the same whether it's Support vs Story (because Hoshido is always on the "good" side). So that seems rather fruitless
To me, Ryoma is pretty consistent as someone tightly tied to the bushido code.
I'll post the same here as I did on SF because youtube's algorithms.
For Chapter 18, the only thing I can think of is that people of Nohr would find the act dishonorable to the point that they might actually use that as fuel to continue waging war against Nohr itself-- ie, all of the rebellions that were talked about in the plot-- two of which the player themselves have to subdue. The first being the Ice Tribe, and the second being Cheve. By having enough dirt on Nohr, it might still be enough to insight infighting I'd wager. However, it's also debatable that this wasn't even a thought that occurred to the writers. For Chapter 18, you could channel your inner Corrin and capture ALL of the soldiers so they don't die. :Soldier:
As for Kotaro, I have no idea. I honestly have nothing on that. With the only rationale I can offer is that he wants to maintain a clean war so that enemies are less likely to deploy the same tactics that old Nohr would. However, this is a bit contradictory to support Xander that doesn't seem to hold this almost indefinable honor system that Xander seems to follow.
Really the only argument that could be made is that Xander is attempting to think of a long run path rather than simply the easiest road traveled for a quick victory, but nothing really addresses this with storyline Xander. We don't get an actual reason why, but rather just "honor" which is a sentiment which varies based on individuals. And as you pointed out, the 3 different Xanders in the story.
I love both this video and part one they have made (support) Xander one of my favorite characters
First of all, amazing video dude I really liked the editing of it.
I played Conquest first and in my opinion Xander was a very charismatic character to the very end. Yes it is true, it was very odd that Xander told Corrin that he will punish her as any other traitor (Nohr politics?) If she was lying about his father, to put a trap to her own family and kingdom, when Corrin has clearly show her loyalty to everyone. But I kinda trying to see it from Xander's point of view, saying something big like the father you have known your entirely life, the father and king who everyone has put their trust, has become a monster out of nowhere? It sounds quite shocking isn't it? Although your siblings fear him to the death.
Xander of Conquest is a character that was hesitating about If what he was doing or his father was doing was for the best, for his people and most important his family. But in the final chapter when we show the Nohrian family the truth about King Garon. Camilla, Leo and Elise, they just cant believe it, they are terrified!!! but Xander is the only one that face the reality or better said the nightmare that is in front of them, with no more doubts, he joins Corrin to fight his father and put an end to everything once and for all. Proof of this, his legendary weapon Siegfried starts to glow and fuse his power with the Yato of Corrin, showing his final resolution and complete trust for his sibling at the very end of the story.
BUT I cant deny the fact that when I played Birthright there was like a miss feeling about him, which your video helped me a lot to understand. The only explanation I could give for Xander in Birthright, is that he just couldn't accept the fact that Corrin didn't return to Nohr and that blinds him completely, during the whole story. Probably the game designers thought that because this was suppose to be a completely separated game, people didn't need to understand at all Xander's character from Conquest. It is like If they treat the two games separately one from another. To give you an unique experience, which is the main concept of the game: The choices you make can change your life
Great video, hope to see next Ryoma or everyones favorite pineapple Takumi.
Peace
I'm not entirely sure how I feel about the assessment of the bit with Zola. While I can agree about most of it (Xander placing honor as his reasoning and how he doesn't comment much on how he feels killing soldiers who were just following orders, like story!Xander loves to argue, being an issue of sorts), Zola did kidnap and impersonate Izana, who is the ruler of a nation that is neutral in the conflict. Considering that both Hoshido AND Nohr honor that neutrality, Zola's violation of that neutrality would definitely reflect poorly on Nohr, so I can kinda understand that (I mean, I wouldn't want my country to be seen as one commits acts like those against a nation whose neutrality we respect and honor).
Mokushu... well, yeah, that one's on Xander.
I feel like I generally agree with this assessment of Xander. I'll admit I like Fire Emblem Fates, but Xander was always one of my least favorite characters/siblings, and I think this is generally good at explaining why. Very great video, I really believe you did a good job here!
Xander is treated like shit in Fire Emblem Heroes’ story
I didn’t know “Xander” was Nohrian for “giant fucking hypocrite”
I dont know if you pointed it out but when Xander says: "There is no such thing as a clean win" and yet he attacked Zola because it wouldn't be a 'honorable win' which is about the same thing as saying it wouldn't be winning cleanly....
This is A solid Video And I hope that IS can see this for future stories and next time and don't force the team to write so much at once with some ridiculous characters that make a mess of things ( Anakos, Peri). So that next time it's a lot better.
Request:
Could You make a video based on the differences of English Henry and Japanese Henry because of how much difference there is between the two versions?
Or a Video on why Henry does the Amoral Killer role right so that IS can finally repeat the wonder that was Henry's Character.
This Xander two-parter was great! I usually dont get many support convos with Xander in my conquest/rev runs, but maybe I'll try and have Xander hang out with some people
I'm a simple man.
I see Ghast upload another Support Science video, and I immediately watch it.
The argument that Xander freeing the Hoshidan royals from Zola to "prolong the war" and his latter "justice is an illusion" speech contradict each other doesn't sit right with me.
First off is the fact that due to the game's inconsistent ludonarrative dissonance, we don't know for sure whether the Nohrian soldiers under Zola's command were outright killed by Corrin and her army or not. You can blame the game's writing for that, but had Zola captured Xander's siblings instead, incapacitating Nohrian fighters would not be something that Xander would hesitate to do. Xander is fully aware that Corrin doesn't want to bring harm to the Hoshidan royals, and I suspect that the "honor" shtick was a cover-up to silently affirm Corrin's plan of letting them live peacefully once the war ended. Yes, he should've had the foresight to know that being ruled by Garon would make that basically impossible, but at this point in the story, Xander still believes his father to not be wholly evil.
And even if Zola's army is Nohrian, Zola is operating outside the army, basically acting as a vigilante. These are Nohrians that have forsaken their government to follow another leader with cowardly tactics (not much better than Garon from a moral perspective, but yeah), arguably making them traitors to the nation, despite doing exactly what Garon would want anyway. Remember that for all their troubles, the plan was about operating under Garon's nose to cause as little bloodshed as possible, and the fact that when they later fight Takumi, Hinoka, and Sakura, Corrin does so with the full intent to have them secretly surrender and escape with their lives. She doesn't succeed in regards to Takumi, but his death came as a suicide, not from Xander or any of the army dealing the killing blow. The "justice is an illusion" scene happens in regards to all the other Hoshidan soldiers and families whose deaths come at the hands of Garon. Corrin clearly doesn't dig what's going on, but Xander, in the best way he can, tries to reason that allowing this to happen is a necessary compromise to allow the people closer to Corrin to potentially survive. It's a "would you rather save a hundred people or your mother" situation, with Xander persuading Corrin to stick with saving the proverbial mother, since his care for Hoshidan citizens is questionable. Both of these scenes happen in service to Corrin, which is what Xander has been all about throughout his appearances.
Now, you could argue that that in and of itself is shoddy writing, not giving Xander enough agency to do what he believes in just to worship Corrin, but I don't think your example works to prove your point of inconsistency. I think you did a good enough job elaborating on that in your first video. I feel like there's a combination of attempted nuance with confused inconsistency here, with Xander himself maybe holding fast to a doublethink regarding his country and Corrin.
WritersBlah hmm interesting thoughts tbh. a nice food for thought.
First off is the fact that due to the game's *inconsistent ludonarrative dissonance*
I don’t know what this means but ow my head.
*we don't know for sure whether the Nohrian soldiers under Zola's command were outright killed by Corrin and her army or not*
It’s heavily implied they were killed as well. Leo needs to kill Zola so he could not report back to king Garon about their act of treason. Zola had Nohrian soldiers under him, you don’t think any survivors would have gone back to Krakenburg?
*but had Zola captured Xander's siblings instead, incapacitating Nohrian fighters would not be something that Xander would hesitate to do*
Of Course, Zola would have committed an act of treason. Xander and co. have full grounds to kill Zola and anyone else affiliated with that plan. I don’t see how this is relevant.
*Xander is fully aware that Corrin doesn't want to bring harm to the Hoshidan royals, and I suspect that the "honor" shtick was a cover-up to silently affirm Corrin's plan of letting them live peacefully once the war ended. Yes, he should've had the foresight to know that being ruled by Garon would make that basically impossible, but at this point in the story, Xander still believes his father to not be wholly evil*
Really? Xander literally witnessed Garon laugh maniacally wanting to make Corrin suffer. Xander knows about the Chevois massacre. Any rational thinker in Xander’s situation would suspect something is absolutely wrong with a man who apparently would never do such things. But I guess that’s story Xander for you, being written to fit whatever scene that calls for him.
*And even if Zola's army is Nohrian, Zola is operating outside the army, basically acting as a vigilante. These are Nohrians that have forsaken their government to follow another leader with cowardly tactics (not much better than Garon from a moral perspective, but yeah), arguably making them traitors to the nation*
I completely disagree. Zola’s army is Nohrian, yes. But Zola is not operating outside the army in any way that would be condemnable as treason. Zola is acting solely in the best interest of Nohr, which is to conquer Hoshido. I don’t buy that they have forsaken their government if that’s the goal. While Zola may not be following Garon’s footsteps like Hans or Iago, Garon’s orders would never be more complex than “kill Hoshidans and anyone else in the way”. Xander never states that Zola was acting treasonous, just dishonorable. Leo just says he’s shameful.
Zola’s Battle Quote is “Why are you fighting this?! I am not you're enemy, those Hoshidans are! I act only for the glory of Nohr! Why is this happening? WHY?!”
This doesn’t sound like the words of someone acting vigilante. He’s undeniably serving the state and certainly not abandoning it. There is no vigilantism or treasonous behavior going on with Zola; he’s serving Garon just fine. Zola never disobeyed the crown prince either because he was never even ordered to stop. The royals are the ones literally killing Zola to cover their tracks so he could not report back to Garon. They, for all intents and purposes, killed their own and committed treason.
About your last two paragraphs, I honestly don’t know what to tell you. Personally I don't think Xander's acts to make Corrin feel better mean that he doesn't believe in his honor agenda. But that is another way of interpreting Xander’s behavior, thanks for sharing.
*Edited to fix formatting*
*It’s heavily implied they were killed as well. Leo needs to kill Zola so
he could not report back to king Garon about their act of treason. Zola
had Nohrian soldiers under him, you don’t think any survivors would
have gone back to Krakenburg?*
That's a good counterargument. The fact that Leo is the one to kill Zola gives credence to your theory that the men operating under Zola would have to be eliminated as well. Alternatively, Izumo as a government is a country independent from Hoshido and Nohr, so considering the fact that all the soldiers had presumably been defeated, it's quite possible they could've been incarcerated for breaking Izumo's neutrality laws. Wounded soldiers likely wouldn't be able to move much on their own, after all. Also, the fact that the real Izana doesn't chastise the royals for killing people in his country supports that they were incarcerated, not killed or escaped back to Krakenburg. This is another potential case of ludonarrative dissonance (which fyi, means when the gameplay and story of a game don't coincide with each other. Think being overleveled for a major boss and winning easily, yet the cutscene following acts like your party's exhausted) as Zola's army will always aggro you, even if you tried to stealthily free the royals without fighting instead.
Now, if we assume your theory is correct, then I suppose Xander and the Nohrian royals are guilty of treason for killing fellow Nohrians. But then again, the army has already committed various acts of treason in simply trying to help Corrin in the first place. Garon's orders were to have Corrin suppress the Ice Tribe on her own, and yet Jakob/Felicia, Elise, her retainers, Silas, Niles, and Odin all banked on helping her out anyway. Engaging in battle with fellow countrymen is obviously something that would give the army more pause, but their attempts to keep their treasonous acts under wraps so far have all been successful. That's why I presented my alternative above; the fact that we are given no information to the fates of the Nohrian soldiers who sided with Zola is ultimately the game's own fault for not providing something you'd think would be important to mention. I guess interpretation from that point onwards lies in how much you trust or doubt Corrin and Xander's competency.
*Of Course, Zola would have committed an act of treason. Xander and co.
have full grounds to kill Zola and anyone else affiliated with that
plan. I don’t see how this is relevant.*
This is incredibly relevant, as it speaks volumes about Xander's character. Xander doesn't like the Hoshidan royals. He just finished having an argument with Ryoma before the Hoshidans were captured. But Xander also knows how much they mean to Corrin. Even if she hasn't said as much, her actions have been very blatantly trying to protect the Hoshidan royals. The only reason why she'd act this way is because she cares for them and still sees them as siblings. This exhibits the fact that XANDER IS EMPATHETIC. He very easily could've told Corrin to shut up, and that letting Zola kill the Hoshidans now would just save their army a lot of trouble. Lord knows he doesn't care for them personally. But he also realizes that Corrin cares deeply for their livelihood, and realizes that to Corrin, letting the Hoshidan royals die would be just as bad as Xander standing by to let his own siblings die. He's helping Corrin fight not because he wants to save the royals, but because Corrin wants to.
*Really? Xander literally witnessed Garon laugh maniacally wanting to
make Corrin suffer. Xander knows about the Chevois massacre. Any
rational thinker in Xander’s situation would suspect something is
absolutely wrong with a man who apparently would never do such things.
But I guess that’s story Xander for you, being written to fit whatever
scene that calls for him.*
It's weird to me that you specifically bring up "something is absolutely wrong with a man who apparently would never do such things" as though it's supporting your argument, when I think it actively deconstructs it. You have your answer right there. We, as the audience, don't see what the life of the Nohrian siblings was like prior to the events of the game. Only by listening in on the Nohrian royals' support conversations do we hear about the kind of person Garon was like in their childhoods, but apparently, he was a pretty decent guy. Strong and strict, yes, but warm enough to the point where Xander genuinely loved him. Then, all of a sudden, you see your dad acting really weird and darker than usual. Of course alarm bells are going off in your head that something is clearly not right. But that would make you worried about your dad, not outright distrustful. Xander is still holding onto the hope that there's some kind of reasoning behind Garon's actions that''s ultimately for the good of Nohr and its people, because he wants to trust his dad. He wants to be able to see his father as he once did, to the point where it's now clouding his judgment on the events folding around him. That's not ignorance, stupidity, or delusion; that's hope. Misguided, faulty hope, but hope nonetheless.
*I completely disagree. Zola’s army is Nohrian, yes. But Zola is not
operating outside the army in any way that would be condemnable as
treason. Zola is acting solely in the best interest of Nohr, which is to
conquer Hoshido. I don’t buy that they have forsaken their government
if that’s the goal. While Zola may not be following Garon’s footsteps
like Hans or Iago, Garon’s orders would never be more complex than “kill
Hoshidans and anyone else in the way”. Xander never states that Zola
was acting treasonous, just dishonorable. Leo just says he’s shameful.*
Well first off, I already mentioned Izumo being a neutral party where fighting between nations is prohibited, but let's gleam past that. Zola and Xander have history with each other ("It's been a long time, Lord Xander.") which seems somewhat distrustful, as Xander immediately recognizes Zola and isn't too pleased to see him. No other information is given, which leaves us to question who Zola is exactly. For all we know, he could have just as high a ranking as Iago, or be an underground vigilante who's committing acts of war in hopes of getting chummy with Garon. Again, bad writing over here. In addition...
*Zola’s Battle Quote is “Why are you fighting this?! I am not you're
enemy, those Hoshidans are! I act only for the glory of Nohr! Why is
this happening? WHY?!”
This doesn’t sound like the words of someone acting vigilante. He’s
undeniably serving the state and certainly not abandoning it. There is
no vigilantism or treasonous behavior going on with Zola; he’s serving
Garon just fine. Zola never disobeyed the crown prince either because he
was never even ordered to stop. The royals are the ones literally
killing Zola to cover their tracks so he could not report back to Garon.
They, for all intents and purposes, killed their own and committed
treason.*
Are you certain those desperate pleas for affirmation aren't the words of a vigilante? Imagine if Batman was a cowardly douchebag with a penchant for being a kiss-ass. "Why are you fighting this?! I am not your
enemy, the Joker is! I act only for the glory of Gotham! Why is this happening? WHY?!" That, to me, sounds like the desperate grovels of someone who knows what they're doing isn't lining up with what they're legally supposed to do, and are demanding affirmation because "it's what you royals would do anyway!" You're right that even if he was found out, he likely wouldn't be punished by Garon, and might even be awarded for it. But at that moment, he wasn't facing Garon, he was facing Corrin and Xander, who as loyal as they are to Nohr, aren't Garon. Moreover, Xander was willing to concede to Izumo's policies on fighting, to the point where he even (regrettably) sat down for dinner with the Hoshidans afterwards.
I honestly feel like you're conflating what should be a confused young man who simultaneously wants to serve his country and his sibling with an ignorant one who is actively betraying Nohr with his lack of logic. I definitely concede that all of the characters are written infinitely better in their support conversations than they are in the main story, to the point where some questionable writing decisions hamper what could've been a fascinating story with very gray morality. I just don't think this specific example is one of them. I don't mean to invalidate any of what you said, as a lot of gaps in the story does demand interpretation that should never have happened in the first place, but you know, that's Fates for you. (P.S., I'm sorry if I've come across as douchey in this post. I don't comment on your other support science videos because I genuinely find them fascinating and tend to agree with your conclusions, but don't really have anything to add to the conversation. It was just specific video that I found some problems with. No hard feelings, I hope.)
WritersBlah Bro, you gotta understand that there is little to no complexity to this story or writing. Your whole argument is based on the possibility that this story is more complex than it is. This isn't a novel, it's a game that really wants you to have fun and buy two more routes.
Luiszerep Okay first off, that's a really dangerous way of thinking. To say that a story is JUST meant to provide context for the gameplay routes makes any potential analysis (like this very Support Science series) devalued. Secondly, just because everyone SAYS this game's story has zero complexity to it doesn't make it true. I agree that there are issues with character writing, missing information, and undeserved player gut punches that make the overall product worth less than it could have been. Nevertheless, I believe that a degree of complexity does in fact exist within the game's narrative. I just pointed out a potential one in my previous comment.
And don't come to me with, "I'm sure that wasn't what the writers intended when they wrote that." Death of the author is a popular mode of thought within literature circles for a reason. Individual analysis of a story is important for making sure that public opinion of a work doesn't stagnate, and I feel is especially important on the Internet, where falling into a comfortable position of groupthink is really easy. The popular opinion of Fates' story right now is that it's terrible, a good lot of which is chalked up to "muh Treehouse translation," but I digress. I'm not sure if that's meant in general or in comparison to other Fire Emblem stories. My goal isn't to prove that Fates has a great story (I don't think it does), but that it's not as terrible as most people claim.
Also did i just saw Laslow x Xander fanart?
I think one of the official artists drew that picture of Laslow and Xander.
Change Doll Time stamp? (I listen to these)
Change Doll 4 minutes in :)
A.L Joseph 4:00
Thank you!
Ah I was waiting for that sequel!
It's an another good video! I am hyped for the Eliwood support science!
There is a benefit in attacking Zola and Kotaro - Nohr's honor.
Had Corrin and Xanders did exactly what they wanted, the Nohrias would be continues to be despicable cowards who use dirty tricks to get what they want, just like Garon.
Ending the war quickly, isn't always in the best interest of everyone. Genocide is easy thing to do but then you have to deal with have consequences for all people, be it a soldier or a poor villager.
This way they open a way to actually create a lasting peace and hopefully get Hoshido a chance to rebuilt in Conquest. What if they defeated Garon but went with what Zola did? No one in Hoshido would trust them and the conflict would continue as a rebellion. Had Zola and Kotaro displayed any redeemable qualities that they can turn out to be good people, they would have been spared like Sakura or the Ice Tribe.
Xanders isn't only looking out for people of Nohr but also Hoshidans. The same way that Ryoma comes to care for Nohr after he went to the capital with Corrin and realized how little resources Nohrians actually have in comparison to Hoshido which is fruitful. In the end Ryoma decides then that once they will deal with Garon, he will establish trade routes with Nohr to help them out.
Ryoma's anger in Conquest is absolutely justified but after events with Zola, you can see that he gains respect for the Nohrian siblings. They are still going to fight since both their kingdoms are on the line but their approach has already been changed, although I think it is strongly to Corrin being part of the rescue party.
Obviously, Garon in the end wouldn't have any of that but Xanders and the rest of his siblings still hold his previous image dear. Was it misguided? Absolutely, given all the possession and stuff but that was hope he hang on to. They believe that Corrin will help them change Nohr and their Father, however silly this notion was given Garon's state. In the end, however, they never came to hate their father, no matter what they have been put through or how many times they had to bit their tongues and nod just not to be executed. This is why the thought of killing him never crossed their mind in Conquest until Corrin persuaded them he is not the father they knew but an empty shell. Even then they were reluctant to bear arms against him because it was their father.
They did see Garon as someone who crosses lines but they don't think he is doing it out of sheer pleasure. Nohr needs resources, as it's highlighted in Birthright.
You can fight for what is right and not doing it through a path of justice or have honor even if justice is not on your side. This is the essence of Nohr, they need a resources to make their kingdom survive, which makes their struggle for them righteous but not just.
Birthright Xanders fighting on the side of Nohr instead of joining Corrin is not surprising either, again his misguided love for his father is still there but you can see that he is conflicted, which is why he chooses to die. His decision to keep Peri and Laslow away for his combat against Corrin is a suicidal attempt in response to the conflict of what is right (Nohr needs resources and Hoshidans have the right to be angry after the murder of Mikoto) and his love for his family (sibling, the man Garon used to be and his retainers). This inner conflict was deepened more with Elise's death as having blood of his family is the last thing he ever wanted. This is why distinction between honor, righteousness and justice is so important.
Xander is more Machivilian than many people realize. Hes far less selfless than he pretends to be. He wears the persona of knight in shinning armor but in truth hes willing to engage in underhanded tactics but only to a point. He has his own sense of honor that he follows. He will protect his position as first prince by obeying his father because hes the best ruler for Nohr. He will employ Peri as his retainer because an effective ruler needs to do evil actions for the greater good. He dreams of perfect future where all nohr citizens are happy in a peaceful world but in the here and now he will use dirty handed tactics. That said, he has his limits and would much prefer to beat Hoshido honorably and won't hesitate to kill even Nohr soldiers who get in the way of his sense of honor. Keep in mind, they are traitors in Xander for opposing him and Xander is not Corrin. He will not hesitate to kill those that stand in his way. Then again, the way Fate works, those Nohr solders might not have died. After all, Corrin somehow stopped the ice tribe rebellion without killing anyone. lol
Amazing analysis. I really appreciate how you did this, your summing it up by saying that you tried to avoid using the term "bad writing" is exactly what I loved about this. Instead of just saying he's not written well, you went into so much detail as to why. Thank you for this video, looking forward to seeing more from you. :)
Before I start defending Xander I want to say I love watching your content and wholeheartedly enjoy it
Now the issue I find is that you combined Hoshidan and Nohrian story and nohrian Xander has nothing behind him but hoshidan Xander has 2 possible points to make him not as much of an idiot as the story makes him 1st being rage or fear and 2nd being the lack of knowledge of the nohrian royals in the birthright storyline back to the 1st point I don't know about you but I make trash decisions when I'm mad and usually don't speak well about anything and everything and also having your worst fear (as you said in part one that he unconditionally loves corrin so it is possible he is already scared that Corrin will chose the truth instead of this lie he has lived as his life) is going to come true may cripple his choices over the next few days which leads into my 2nd point into which Garon doesn't have a Slave any more so his decision probably change based on his situation and may say or order Xander to do something while in a state of stress but that is just my opinion
Btw I still enjoy and respect your content
I've been waiting for this part for some time, finally it's here
"But Ghast! I liked the way they wrote Xander. I haven't played other Fire Emblem games though, but I have absolutely no bias whatsoever, you're just making the game look bad for the sake of it!"
In all seriousness though, I really hope that the writters/localization team have learned their lesson. And don't fuck up FE16 (whenever that may be released)
stefanfr13 They better keep it uncensored.
Oldschoolgamer
this
also I hope Nintendo never let's tree house touch another fire emblem game or any other game that isn't Mario or Kirby ever again
You know I feel IS actually is pretty attentive to feedback and try to make improvements where they are needed, so they must be aware of the general consensus regarding Fates story. We'll see if they can improve this area.
I've been playing Japanese Echoes and have liked how they managed the story so far, although that's not an entirely original plot since it's based on Gaiden of course.
Fingers crossed for the story of Switch FE tho
ImmaLittlePip or Pokémon?
dae treehouse ruined everything
I can't express how much i like how Ghast handle the Fire Emblem franchise. He obviously and openly didn't like the game. And it's very easy to just give up a game you don't like at first. But Ghast didn't do that. As a true, true Fire Emblem fan, he continued trying to understand more about this game. In the end, i don't think it changed his overall opinion about it, but now, his opinion is a very informed one. I believe he knows pretty much everything you can know about Fates, which makes his opinion more relevant. *Unlike another TH-camr who considers himself a fan of the franchise*, he genuinely wants to learn more about it, because he's passionate. I love you, Ghast, i hope you'll continue doing that forever
One thing I wanted to say: I feel that Xander's talk with Leo and Xander telling Leo to 'gather your most trusted troops' was xander implying he knew what was going on and he wanted to be ready for anything but he couldn't openly say anything because of his role as crown prince and that suspicions were focused on him at that time.
I never liked Xander in the main campaigns but always looked forward to reading his supports...I did stupidly trade in Birthright so I might buy Conquest later this year just to fully fill his supports. I can't wait for Eliwood's time to shine in these support science videos as I really like the guy
*comment number XYZ which states how well made this support science was made*
I also vote for Gregor from Awakening.
...I didn't enjoy Awakening aswell as Fates that much but some characters are nice, like Gregor.
...but the ones like him get overlooked because we have other fan favorites...which is not Gregor, it seems.
...so let's give this man some time in the spotlight so the world of New Gen FE can see, how great he is, as he is Gregor.
...in short: No "nooooonczeeeenze" please, thanks.
Exorion I agree gregor needs a spotlight I love the guy. kinda overshadowed
Yeah but isnt fire emblem always about the crazy people i mean unique heroes....i consider obsession with justice like arthur mental illness so that tells you how i see things
If they wanted Xander to be to all these contradictory things they should have had Garon, Iago, or ooze monster controlling him with dark magic. Why not it happened to takumii off screen and also Gunther.
16:08 FUCKING HELL! That terrified me.
*sees the thumbnail of this video* Aw hell yeah! *sees that she has to go to her doctor* FUCK!
Story Xander is a Skrull!
Thanks for taking the time to do this video. I can't even imagine how long it must've taken you to write the script for this one.
Let's hope SoV improves the writing of the series. From my basic knowledge of Japanese and the few Memories I've seen on TH-cam, that seems to be the case.
However, I'm pissed that they locked some supports behind DLC. I think this is getting out of hand. Let's hope Nintendo and Intelligent Systems pull their shit together for FE Switch.
Dozens of cannon fodder nohr soldiers do not = the life of 1 of the best ninjas period, Kaze. Xander is more Machiavellian than shinning knight in armor. He wears a mask of honor and justice but its not how he actually operates.
Wissenschaft Machiavelli would have chosen the path of less conflict with a quick end to war. He may have been evil and shrewd but he certainly wasn't dumb
that would be so good if they really did two game withvery different outcome (perhaps inizumo the royals being captured but corrin disobeying helping them to escape in nohr)
Eliwood is one of the best lords to me, at least writing-wise. Looking forward to it.
Hey ghast, would you consider making a Zihark support science? I feel he is an interesting character, and is one of the few well-written "tragic backstory" characters, as he doesn't come off super edgy.
Doug Austin If he does, he would need to check the original due to a change between versions.
I agree, but I find the Japanese version to be Canon. the wiki hits many of the important changed bits last time I checked.
I love all of these support science videos I've seen so far, but especially these two videos about Xander. Something always seemed off to me when it came to how he acts in the plot vs how he acts in supports but I had trouble putting my finger on what that was exactly, and these videos finally helped me put words to it.
I'm half convinced that different people wrote support Xander and story Xander because the amount of dissonance between the two is too great for them to have the exact same writers behind them. And if there was no difference in the writing teams, then that's a huge cause for concern.
Character development and plot development should work off of each other, but with quite a few of the Fates characters (Xander especially) it sometimes feels like they've been shoehorned into what should be their own story. Sometimes it's as if the supports show who the characters really are while the plot is a mediocre fanfiction based off of the characters in the supports.
Anyway, I really enjoyed these videos and I'm excited to see you cover more supports as the series continues.
my only excuse is the mechanics reason of "if Xander was anything like support Xander you would have a OP prepromote at the early chapters of the game" but even then they gave Ryoma a more dignified and character appropriate death in conquest
Another thing I feel should've been mentioned in either video is how in Birthright, Xander is intent on a duel to the death with Corrin, yet on Conquest, when Ryoma wants to do the EXACT SAME THING with Corrin, he tries to get between them and even basically tries to command the army to follow. And honestly Ryoma's reaction is somewhat justified because he genuinely believes that Corrin murdered Hinoka in cold blood and is blindly following Garon. It's just really petty of Xander to try and get between it when he demands the SAME THING in another route for a MUCH less justifiable reason. I just feel like his character is all over the place. (And Nohr is actually my preferred campaign.)
Also... That speed on a paladin is just abysmal. Even if they were trying to balance the gameplay in routes by making the Nohrian royals heavy-hitting tanks (with the exception of Elise who's essentially a fragile speedster with incredible magic damage) and the Hoshidan royals incredibly speedy and skilled, his speed is WAYYY lower than whay it should be. It almost never goes into the 20's for me unless I get incredibly RNG blessed. I think paladins in general got nerfed in Fates honestly. That was random but I just wanted to say that too.
It might be a bit much to ask, but can you do an episode of this support reviewing for Charlotte? I love her personality expressed through her supports, and ESPECIALLY with Keaton. Seriously, go check it out.
I absolutely love your support science videos and I was waiting for this one to come out. As usual, you're totally right! :D Could you do a support science over Leo?
You know i actually love Xander. Well the Support Xander atleast just because I really like him with Charlotte and Nyx. overall i like your video i and i can learn so much thinks for you. Keep up making good video's
It might be worth considering that Xander and corrin together really can't kill Garon under almost any circumstance until endgame. The chapter, endgame. Especially with Lago there. I agree completely with nigh everything you've said. Yet, the consideration of throwing his own life away if he disagrees with his father. And even corrin, or other royals. Other than the fact Corrin can 2 round dragon garon in birthright, in conquest, it takes an army and corrin's deus ex machina sword to win. Which at the point of the justice is an illusion speach, corrin doesn't have.
An interesting thought. Though I wonder what would have happened if Xander’s Siegfried didn’t react at all after seeing garon sitting on the throne like that.
I want to say that on conquest, Corrin’s well meaning and soft nature influences Xander to be more concerned with honor
I fucking love these man, great work as always.
One could say that the contradictory actions of story Xander actually makes him more realistic. People are contradictory by nature. Xander loves his father, his family, and his nation. If forced to choose, who would he pick? How can you make such an impossible choice? We basically get to see Xander make three different choices. Birthright, where Xander stands by his father. Conquest, where Xander stands by his siblings. And Revelations where Xander supports Corrin for a better future and therefore actually doing whats best for his nation.
Just a tip; it's called _Revelation,_ not "Revelations".
I feel the only game that did Xander justice was Fire Emblem Warriors, which was developed by Koei Tecmo. He talks like everyone's dad and is a beast on the battlefield.
The Xanders are multiplying!
There's nothing that says Zola's soldiers are skilled. Kaze is clearly far above their skill. That's what he means. So their dishonorable nature supercedes the fact that they're from his country. While not stated, I'd bet he doesn't enjoy killing Nohrian soldiers, but he knows he must if he wants to get at Zola, since they would obviously defend him.
But yeah, he does prolong the War and this does make him contradict that support statement. That said, it's just him being irrational. My own personality isn't consistent either, and so, his personality caused these issues.
He's a bit more consistent than you think. In Support and Story and in both games he doesn't go against his Father even if he thinks what his Father is doing is wrong. How did you overlook that?
I feel like Xander's reasoning for allowing the Hoshidan nobles to live falls in line with support Xander, however, his reaction to attack his own army is bizarre. Sorry if you mentioned this in the video, I'm making this comment half way through
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make when Xander is killing Zola's men. I don't think he contradicts support Xander at all. None of Xander's supports indicate that he would have let Hoshido's royals get killed in a dishonorable way. The exact same thing happened in Kaze's case, and that was explained well in their support. If anything, it contradicts Xander's actions, or lack thereof during the 'Justice is an illusion" speech. However, it makes sense that he wasn't acting against killing innocent Hoshidans because Garon was right behind him and would have killed Xander if he tried to stop the killings. You say that support Xander only wishes for the well-being of the Nohrian people, but he also wants to do things honorably. You can have both of those things in most cases, but when Zola captured the Hoshidan royals, Xander could only choose one of those things. To put it simply, Xander has a set of values, but the events of Conquest made it impossible for him to follow all of those values at once. Overall, I think Conquest Xander acts in-line with support Xander. Your strongest points were definitely made in the first part where Birthright Xander wasn't able to read people's emotions or seem to care about the wishes or feelings of his siblings even though he clearly showed the contrary in his support conversations.
Ghast Station I think this video was very well thought up and I agree with you on several occasions. However I feel this needs to be said and that is Xander is part of a game. What I mean by that is the story Xander and the game was set up that way so their could be more gameplay. Even in your you video you say, "In the story, Xander is just written for whatever the scene calls for", which if you think makes sense since it's for the purpose of making more chapters and allowing people to have more gameplay overall.
Yeah they could've made it seem better by like you said by making Xander try to see corrin's side of the story and try to convince him/her to come back. Also, they could've made him say that him being the crown prince, he has to make tough decisions or something along those lines. Even with support Xander being different than story Xander doesn't make him more horrible as you claim.
Often in life you will find what people or you say is different than what you do. How is Xander any different; anybody can say that they will stand up to their father like him in his supports, but to actually do it and without making him seem as a traitor is not an easy task. Even if he decided to go against King Garon's orders and was branded weak and a traitor like Corrin, then how is he supposed to act, team up with Hoshido who cares less about Nohr and even more so it's King and crown prince.
Also you can't throw story Xander under the bus without stating his good side. He did stand up to his father on several occasions such as Conquest chapter 7 when he protected Corrin from father's claims and when he refused to kill Corrin. Then there's Conquest chapter 24 as you mentioned, but you skipped over this part where he said he didn't like the plan and said, "But we must stay strong. If we falter now, the whole world will pay the price." It would seem he knows that his father's plans are arguably wrong, but follows him anyway because he's his father and King of Nohr and, like Corrin, believes staying on his side will allow him to end the war.
He acts this way both in Conquest Xander and Birthright Xander that you say are different, but to me, through this logic, are actually the same person. Though his support Xander may be the best version of him, I believe it to be the same as the story version just a side that doesn't actually speak up which is relatable if you want to talk about being relatable; people often are afraid or whatever the reason don't choose to speak their mind just like Leo and how I believe Xander is too. The difference between Corrin and Xander in Conquest is that Corrin knows his father is a physical monster while Xander just thinks he can think harshly like one, yet Xander thinks he still can end the war and bring peace with Garon as king. I think your opinion of story Xander is harsh, yes most of what you said about story Xander and support Xander are contradictory is true. Still, that doesn't mean they're different entirely. How many people can say they have said they're going to do something and have always done it especially something difficult like in Xander's case. If someone says they always have their lying because that would mean their perfect and no one is perfect.
I Know this comment is long, but I had to say what I felt need to be said, since you didn't put these facts and ideas in your video. I like Xander and he is my favorite Lord protagonist along with Ike and Lucina. Even with your facts and opinions in your video, my own facts and opinions show that he is a great character despite your two part support science videos.
Don't misunderstanding, I do agree with you on multiple points and liked your videos, but I still believe story Xander and support Xander to be the same and developed well.
I also wouldn't blame treehouse for the bad writing because unless you played the Japanese version and understood the language, you wouldn't know the difference. The story is good not great, but at least okay. To me though, I liked the plot and it was good.
I know that you didn't mention anything about the treehouse and the Japanese version being different or the plot being horrible, though you did say the writing was poorly written. That was directed to those I've seen say that in these comments and in other videos.
If you even see this, I don't expect you to change your mind, but hope you at least consider my side unlike Xander did with Corrin.
Once again I wish my comment didn't have to be so long, but just like story Xander it was the only way to be written.
You're going to do Eliwood!? WOOOOO!!!!
Hey Ghast great job on this video,I also can't wait for the Eliwood video as he is one of my favorite lords
I would guess the biggest flaw in the conquest (and Fates as a whole) story is the mismatch between Corrin's objectives and Xander's/the siblings" objectives... I mean, Corrin's decision to stay with Nohr is actually driven by her wishes to bring peace, whereas Xander is more focused on the Nohr against Hoshido plot. If only they could have arranged to make the siblings participate in the plot (which they don't because "Azura can't show them the reality through her pendant" and all that bs) i guess it would be easier to make the story's characters more relatable to the supports'
Gosh, I love these videos. Will we get some on supports in Echoes?
I think that the justice is an illusion speach was more broad being about how to live and less about what just happened. I personally think Xander is speaking more vaguely
After watching this, it makes sense why FE Heroes has Xander as a Grand hero battle. Hypocrisy of one's own values is a trait used with villians. note Grand Hero Battles have generally featured villians/antagonists that have appeared throughout fire emblem games. It makes me wonder if story Xander and Support Xander were deliberately written this way.
I've waiting for this for so long
Story Xander is actually a giant Goo Monster.
Oh Xander, oh Fates
Honestly what you said at the end about how Story!Xander just filling in for plot convenience is exactly how I felt
What happened to him is a shame but, uh, Fates, so I guess in a sense he was a little screwed from the start
Maybe they made him the way he was in the story because.... I dunno...... keeping Support!Xander would deviate somehow? Like, Ryoma has his own issues and due to Garon being Garon it... sort of(?) led to the first committing... suicide....
Sort of....... the more I talk about it the more sketchy I feel especially since you know Fates dynamics way better than I do
But uh - anyways maybe they felt like, getting to Birthright's plot, the game just....... couldn't end with Xander giving in because then Ryoma dies in one game and Xander doesn't die in the other and
I dunno 😂
Oh Fates
Anyways your videos are so amazing!!!!! And I agree on how great Xander (well the support one) is hahaha.... such a shame what happened to him in the story of... literally all three games...
Since it feels like you... well, didn't address any of the things I brought up in your first video about this, I'm going to repost it here for posterity's sake. Well, that and I'm hoping you'll actually read it this time ;p
Sorry to actually argue this... but I have to come out and say I completely disagree with... well, nearly everything you just said regarding Xander. And ironically, it's for reasons that you had used in another character; Camilla - and that is the fact that Xander is arguably as much a broken bird as she or Peri were.
To start with, Xander has, by way of his harsh upbringing under a monstrous father, effectively had to become a sociopath by necessity - he had to desensitize, depersonalize and compartmentalize himself to such an extent that, outside of a few examples, he really never lets the mask slip in regards to his vulnerabilities and regrets. After all, how can he afford to - he's the crown prince. And this is where I feel your arguments about "Story Xander".... well, it's where I feel you claims completely fall apart.
In the story, the main times we see Xander are either on the battlefield or in the presence of his father Garon - whom, as Leo tells Corrin in Conquest, is someone they cannot afford ever appear as anything less than merciless or unfeeling clones of while in his presence. In fact, much of your argument actively ignores the fact that Xander’s supports, like all other characters, seem to take place inside the Deeprealms/Corrin’s astral plane, where he is as far removed and therefore save from Garon’s spies and prying ears as he can possibly be and thus the only place he can be unguarded. During the story missions and cutscenes, he’s either in Garon’s presence or the presence of Garon’s allies - positions he literally cannot afford to appear as anything else but the merciless prince, in much the same vein as how Subaki feels he can’t afford to appear as anything else but perfect when in public or how Corrin themselves feel throughout much of Conquest itself.
Moreover, rather than "cowardly", Xander would arguably qualify more as what is known as a "Combat Pragmatist" - someone who's goal is victory regardless of the means; something that his supports actually reinforce as, according to his support chain with Leo, he was not someone gifted with immense talent like his younger brothers were. He had to work tooth and nail for it and ultimately became such a good warrior because he made use of any and every advantage he could get. Hell, the fact he's a horseback fighter rather than a front-line swordsman like Ryoma already indicated that there was a difference between the two on what was or wasn't acceptable to bring to a fight or what codes they abided by in regards to fairness in battle.
Going off of that, it can also be pointed out that your “pre-established” aspects argue what Xander used to be like; that he used to be willing to get into disagreements with Garon, but it became less frequent as he had to prioritize the safety of his siblings over his pride and eventually even his humanity. In fact, between Xander’s supports with Corrin and his words in Conquest, it can be inferred that the times Corrin watched him train were back when he was still in Corrin’s shoes; unwilling to accept what Garon was doing and trying to change things from within, but unlike Corrin he was slowly beaten down by his inability to succeed at this task due to the fact that, as with his siblings, he couldn’t truly betray his father no matter what kind of monster he became and that, much like Azura with her aloofness, he slowly became the mask because he felt he had no choice. The “bravery he was talking about” has, by this point, been long since burnt out by depression and despair and the vain hope that, if he just finds a way to resuscitate their dying nation, their father may snap back to normal. In fact, even your claims about his doubts don’t match up, because Xander’s doubts were only ever directed towards whether Garon’s action were morally righteous or not - no matter how much he doubted Garon, he never actually seemed to believe that Garon ever intended anything other than Nohr’s well-being but was going about it in an amoral way. Hell, even his response to the Gangarli is never definitively defined as anything more than simple surprise rather then genuine suspicion - in fact, his surprise that the sword exploded in Conquest seems to indicate that, whatever he believed or suspected, he hadn’t hit the point where he thought Garon intended it as a suicide bomb, and it wasn’t until after that point that he no longer seemed surprised that Garon wanted Corrin to suffer.
Additionally, Xander's reasons for going even further in Birthright were directly explained, in that it seems to mirror what was done for Saber Alter in the Fate/Stay Night's Heaven's Feel route - namely that he was being knowingly and deliberately severe towards Corrin so that, when Corrin faced him, they could strike him down with as little guilt as possible. Just as he had told Camilla in their supports, he is still serving as the pillar for his family - only in Birthright, he does so by being the obstacle Corrin must overcome. As you yourself said, his devotion to seeing Corrin happy was prevalent, only it manifested in a different way; the belief that, at that point, the most he could do was try to give Corrin as much reason as possible to defeat him so that she could cleanly sever ties with the least amount of pain. It’s effectively a permanent version of how he portrayed himself in battle with Corrin; he felt he had to take the fight completely seriously because, if Corrin couldn’t overcome him like that, how could Corrin possibly fend against the likes of Ryoma or survive battles that even Xander himself could struggle with? Hell, with how skilled Xander is in battle, it’s arguable that he wasn’t doing anything close to trying to injure Corrin in Chapter 3; if he were actually serious, he’d have taken Corrin’s head off then and there. Instead, it could be argued that Xander initiated a sword fight rather than just striking Corrin down wholesale as a deliberate move to stall for time so that Garon didn’t execute her instantly or so that Leo could get Rinkah and Kaze to safety - hell, his being there to see them off seems to imply he was indeed in on Leo’s plan, or at the very least wasn’t surprised by the outcome. If Xander hadn’t engaged Corrin himself, Garon likely would have struck - and unlike Xander, Garon wouldn’t have hesitated to kill Corrin instantly.
The above argument extends to Revelations with Leo, in which Leo speaking his mind in the throne room where Garon’s spies may hear is not exactly an ideal course when three of the five Nohrian royals have abandoned the cause already. When it was in the war-table with people he trusted, Xander had no qualms about Leo speaking openly, but to speak such in Castle Krakenberg when their father is nowhere near as tolerant was just tempting fate, which Xander was less willing to do than Leo was by that point. Hell, it extends to Conquest as well in that Xander gives Corrin the warning about what betrayal means instead of just arresting them for treason there and then on the spot; he warns Corrin that their accusation threatens not just the whole family but the entire Nohrian kingdom if they’re wrong and that, as the crown prince, it’s his duty to family and country alike to not prioritize any single life over the whole, no matter who it is. And this isn’t even counting that it honestly is pretty jarring to suddenly have Corrin bring up these accusations of Garon now of all times, or the fact that he may fear Corrin’s regret over the deaths of their Hoshidan siblings might have driven them to try and kill Garon as some brash and reckless attempt at justice or revenge - it, in all honesty, comes across as yet another act of intentional harshness to test Corrin’s resolve for any signs of doubt, mixed with the ever-present denial of wanting to believe Garon is still savable and the sense that, if Corrin’s wrong, he won’t be able to save her because he’d be trading the entirety of his family and jeopardizing the kingdom for her single life. And yet, that he gives Corrin the chance to prove their claims despite knowing all this shows how much faith he has in them. He is harsh intentionally because it is honestly the most straightforward and effective way to test Corrin’s conviction before he bets Leo, Camilla, Elise and possibly all of Nohr on it, and that he goes through with it shows just how firm his faith really is in spite of having to wear that mask to proof-check it. His “sub-zero coldness” was, arguably, more to confirm that Corrin didn’t have any doubts about what they said.
(Continued)
Furthermore, his loyalty to Garon was also addressed as a direct side-effect of the very same devotion to family you just now mentioned - in his mind, Garon was made cold and heartless because of the loss of his wife, all his his concubines and all his children save for the four royals, and had hoped that bringing salvation to Nohr (which was literally decaying due to Garon's mismanagement) through the conquest of Hoshido and acquisition of its resource-rich lands would be enough to start taking the burden off Garon's shoulders and start bringing back the father he'd known. For all the things Garon has done, Xander doesn’t want to see his father as “evil” so much as “broken” - just like he doesn’t condemn Peri or Camilla for their frequent acts of merciless and sometimes rampant murder, he rationalizes in his mind that Garon is just very much mentally ill. Is it an excuse? Yes, but it’s an understandable excuse, because it's born of the very thing that was always Xander’s strength and in this case is his weakness; an undying love of his family no matter who they are or what they’ve done. His father has become ruthless, cold and a tyrant in his eyes, but he refuses to think of him as evil so much as that he’s become hardened by losing his wife, his concubines and all his other children from the infighting of the political courts. He doesn’t even know Garon isn’t human anymore and thus can’t be saved - and it’s only when he does realize his father’s an imposter that he finally accepts the only thing he can do is put his father to rest. Ironically, for all his grim resignation, Xander never gave up the hope his father could come back, but realizing his father is dead already is what finally gets him to act on his conscience again. That his father was ruthless was, in Xander’s mind, because he was a broken man who was heading a dying country and rationalized it as that his father thought he *had* to be ruthless in order to secure Nohr’s future - that any hate Garon had for Corrin, it was out of *paranoia* for Corrin’s bloodline and their repeated defiance rather than malevolence and that, once Corrin proved themselves, Garon would accept them. It isn’t until the very end that he finally accepts his father simply isn’t the man he remembers, figuratively and literally, and that the war was in and of itself a completely pointless act of conquest; it isn’t until the *very end* when the truth is utterly undeniable that he accepts he’s been in denial about the lengths his father would go to even in desperation.
You, for whatever reason, didn’t seem to take note of how Xander had been speaking in *past-tense* with Corrin about how he’d fight with his father; he hasn’t been that outspoken in years if Leo’s talk about their obfuscating their humanity from Garon is any indication. Up until that point, he sees his father as a very broken and ruthless *human*, but not a deliberately evil person - a believe perpetuated by his undying love and loyalty to family; the *very same defining character trait you repeatedly noted was a core aspect of his,* hence why I personally can’t understand how Xander’s response could be so surprising to you. Additionally, you have also made assumptions about how much Xander would or wouldn’t have been aware about - at the absolute most, it could be said that Xander knew Sumeragi died and Garon took Corrin away as a new child, but there’s nothing illustrating he knew Sumeragi was flat-out murdered. Even than, it comes down to the aforementioned belief that, if he can revive Nohr’s decayed state with the conquest of Hoshido, it may relieve Garon’s “burdens” enough for the man to finally start softening again - he ultimately decided to place his family’s well-being over moral righteousness and would continue to do so for years afterword; a choice that, as implied in Nyx’s supports, haunts him endlessly. In fact, if what he says in Nyx’s supports is to be believed, Xander actually has something of a slightly-suicidal mindset similar to Lancelot in the Fate/Stay Night series - that he might actually find it okay to die and be the martyr for Nohr if that becomes the only thing to do he’d actually succeed at.
Furthermore, in his eyes, Corrin’s betrayal arguably *wasn’t* taken as “insidious” - if anything, Xander’s replies in Birthright imply that a lot of his harshness was so as to *reinforce* Corrin’s choice so that, even if Corrin was an enemy, they could have as little regrets as possible about their decision. If he *had* done what you suggested and said those things to Corrin in _Birthright,_ it would have impeded Corrin’s ability to let go of him and make peace with their choice. If anything, it could be argued that he loved them so much that he would rather let them see him as the enemy than to cause them further emotional grief by trying to make them undo their choice. He decides to accept Corrin’s choice for what it is and support it in the only way he can - by doing everything possible to make sure Corrin has no reason to regret it, or at least as little reason as possible (which, because of how overly-kind Elise was, ended up backfiring in the worst way possible). In all honesty, how Xander speaks in his dying moments of _Birthright_ ought to clearly illustrate a lot of his behavior, from his accusations of brainwashing to his declarations of killing, was just his way of making sure Corrin could move on from him with as few regrets as possible. It’s precisely *because* he understands Corrin’s wavering loyalties that, once Corrin makes a choice between the families, he will do his part to reinforce that choice - be it as the hero or the villain. It isn’t hypocritical nor ignorant; it is him playing the role he’s been given. In fact, again, taking from Nyx’s supports, it’s possible that Xander being aware his cause is inherently unjust is why he would push all the harder to ensure Corrin would have no regrets about striking him down; much like he comes to see killing Garon as releasing his torment in _Conquest,_ Xander may have come to see Corrin killing him in _Birthright_ as a deserved punishment that he would be very much willing to accept by that point. He literally can’t afford to stop being the villain in Birthright by the time of Castle Krakenberg’s invasion, because Corrin’s resolve would just be weakened - but it ultimately backfired because Elise’s kind-heartedness was every bit the equal to his determination to basically martyr himself on Corrin’s sword.
Hence why I, harsh as it is to say, must instead argue that *your* argument is the one that “completely crumbles” in Birthright; because it completely ignores the fact that Xander was basically *trying* to make Corrin hate him, if not outright kill him, by that point. By the time of his final battle in _Birthright,_ Xander is arguably to Corrin what Saber Alter was to Shirou - he does not consider himself as having a future anymore and he does not want to be saved; only provide himself to Corrin as a final obstacle so that they can both end this and have some degree of peace. Elise dying in the crossfire of it just worsens his self-hate and makes him full-on suicidal - to the point that even his in-game stats decrease sharply to reflect his utter loss of will to live and desire to basically commit suicide by throwing the fight. To put it simply… by that point, “daddy dearest” was the *furthest thing from his mind* after Elise died, and to say that is, in my opinion, completely and utterly disregarding the established details about Xander’s character that you yourself said were so important. It is because Xander *did* “see the light” that he realized that, in his desire to be Corrin’s goalpost to move past without guilt, he had tormented Elise unwittingly - and the guilt of that meant that, no matter what Elise’s wishes, he simply could not forgive himself enough to keep living with her blood on his hands, and dying by Corrin’s hand was his idea of having justice be served. In that moment, the weight of his actions completely crushed him - and having justice be dealt to him by Corrin is the only fate he feels he deserves by that point. Honestly speaking, to say “the only logical conclusion is that he still has faith in Garon and the war” is about the *furthest* logical conclusion I think could be come to, personally speaking.
(Continued)
The only time his actually forgoing any of his feelings and actively hating Corrin is true is in _Revelations,_ where Corrin not siding with *anyone* triggers Xander immensely, to the point where even the hot-blooded Ryoma looks the sane and tame one by comparison. And the reason for that is simple; Corrin betrayed *everyone.* By that, I mean that, because of how much of Xander’s character is based on love for his family, Corrin siding with their birth family would actually be more forgivable than them just going rouge and turning on everyone - after all the horrors Xander himself has done purely out of loyalty to the man his father used to be, he would have an easier time accepting Corrin’s choice to fight for their blood family than he would them betraying both blood family and adopted family. In _Revelations,_ it’s precisely because Corrin appears to reject all forms of family tie - and therefore reject every concept Xander held dear - that Xander is so strikingly more volatile and hostile in _Revelations_ then in _Birthright_ - whereas Xander has lived his whole life for the sake of his family, Corrin’s betraying any and every family they have is practically the anti-thesis of his beliefs and makes him feel that Corrin has not simply left them but turned their backs on family and love in general, thus electing a more extreme response. It also arguably causes him to become more dependent on the belief that his father is salvageable - Corrin’s actions cut pretty deeply in _Revelations_ and threaten the very “family love above all else, even right or wrong_ beliefs he’s always held, and forces him to contend with serious doubts that start cracking his mask. However, unlike in _Birthright,_ he eventually isn’t able to deny the doubts anymore when Garon flat-out declares he *wants* to destroy Nohr outright; the prevention of which, and by extension the preservation of his family, were the only things keeping him anchored to Garon, as it’s only after this that he realizes his father isn’t the man he claims to be. Than, after the revelation of the whole “revenants” thing (dead people being controlled by Anankos), he finally seems to piece two and two together and realize the Garon he served wasn’t really his father and it, like in _Conquest,_ spurns him to act on his sense of right once more.
On top of that, none of this even begins to cover Xander’s obligations to the kingdom of Nohr itself - which would be dragged into chaos in and of itself if the Crown Prince was being so openly rebellious of their father. It’s heavily implied that whatever kingdom Corrin abandons takes a major hit to their morale, to the point that infighting among the royalty would be political suicide - and after the hell that was the Nohrian courts (where Leo, Camilla and Elise in supports claim they were little more than pawns for the many wives of Garon against the other children and wives), Xander in particular would have plenty of reason to not want to tip the scales in a way that would send the already-decaying kingdom into chaos. In fact, according to the extended materials and production notes, one of the whole reasons the people of Nohr were so supportive of Garon’s invasion of Hoshido was because Nohr was in the midst of a resource crisis (seemingly famine from low crops) due to Garon’s own mismanaging of Nohr. This reason for the war was sadly taken out-of-focus in the story of the game, but it still seems to be the publicly-given reason for why Nohr was invading Hoshido; they wanted their rich farmlands to revitalize themselves with. Given the fragile state Nohr would be in (and even worse if they were losing), Xander arguably wasn’t in a position to just start causing dissension. It isn’t until after the truth about Garon is revealed as that Xander finally realizes Garon didn't wanting Hoshido’s resources to save Nohr; he just wanted to conquer everything in sight, hence why the conquest was ultimately needless. Ergo, contextually speaking, I think you’re wrong in saying he ever had a choice - he really *didn’t* when you take everything into account, because no action he could have feasibly taken could have resulted in anything but losing the only family he had left after all the others (all his step-siblings and step-mothers) died from the political infighting that was caused after Queen Arete (or rather, the influence of Anankos when he followed her) arrived into the Nohrian Royalty.
And then we have the end of _Birthright,_ where by then Xander’s goals have shifted from “I will be Corrin’s enemy so that they have no regrets” to “I will be Corrin’s enemy so that he can kill me and in doing so get justice for all my sins” - his choice is no longer about a lack of opportunity or by obligation, but by the fact that he no longer considers himself deserving of anything else but death at Corrin’s hands as a way of, as any prince should, taking responsibility for their country’s sins and taking the hit in it’s stead. Even though Elise could forgive him, Xander couldn’t forgive himself by that point, and so after her death his desire seemed to be to martyr himself after losing all faith in himself to lead Nohr, letting it have a clean slate. It is precisely because he wants best for his people that he feels someone who isn’t worthy of them - i.e., himself - should be punished for his part in failing them and in no longer being worthy of them; it’s precisely because he cares about them that he feels they don’t deserve a “failure” like himself leading them, and that, for Nohr’s sake, he should die for his failure to save and protect it. Even at the very end, he acted as Crown Prince - he fought and died in battle even though he was so grief-stricken that he likely wanted to just run himself through then and there; his position as Crown Prince meant he couldn’t just kill himself; he felt he had to be killed so as not to disgrace Nohr further while having justice be obtained for the sins he caused. He considered everything to be the result of his own failure - that he wasn’t strong or good enough to do what he should have done, much like how Corrin felt in _Conquest_ when failing to save Ryoma - and that, unlike Camilla and Leo, he didn’t have either the privilege or right or backing down; he made his bed and he decided it only right that he lay in it, and Elise’s attempt to save him only made it worse. His people, in his mind, deserve better than him - they deserve Corrin and Leo, not himself. Hence why I feel that, for you to say his actions were “so far from the last thing he should have done" is, in my opinion, to *completely and utterly misinterpret both Xander’s feelings and the position he was in.*
Hell, even *Corrin,* despite their remarkable naiveté and arguable thick-headinesses, seemed to (eventually) recognize how much collateral damage would be caused simply by trying outright open resistance against Garon, with Azura’s monologue following the Kistune Hamlet cutting to the heart of the matter; Corrin, like Xander, cared too much for his home and the lives of his siblings to risk them by angering Garon, for fear that the king would take said rage out not on them but on those they care about. I’ll be the first to admit it could have been executed or shown far better, but the whole reason Corrin seemed to finally go along with Garon’s invasion in _Conquest_ is because they concluded that conventional resistance would just damage Nohr and the family; they had to wait until they were in a position to reveal the truth and stop Garon in a way that wouldn’t cause Nohr to collapse or risk the family just being slated for execution - which, sadly, came at great cost to Hoshido. It is the same with Xander all throughout the story - not wanting Nohr or his family to suffer consequence for his personal feelings serves as yet another reason he cannot bring himself to openly opposed Garon; they are more important to him than his pride or even his humanity.
So, in closing... I cannot help but feel that you have, in no uncertain terms, completely and utterly misinterpreted Xander by mistakingly thinking the dissonance between his mask in the story and his true self in the supports wasn't intentional, when by all accounts it's what makes him a multifaceted character to begin with. For every argument you made to why “Story Xander” is bad, it’s contradicted by something you had literally just said in the supports with the siblings. Hell, it could actually be argued that you outright didn’t even try to connect the two, let alone try to contemplate how and why the complexities of his character would apply, and that some of your conclusions ignore points you yourself made.
Chances are that I will be making comments like this in your other videos, so look out for those. And sorry in advance if I sound or sounded rude in these or will at further points, but I tend to get pretty rant-ty about this stuff, so brace yourselves.
(Concluded)
Simply put, Xander in every incarnation is the *same character* but with different sides of him emphasized:
- in _Birthright,_ his sense of patriotism takes the forefront when Nohr begins to crumble to Hoshido, eventually becoming martyrdom and redemption-by-death-in-battle.
- In _Conquest,_ his sense of devotion takes the forefront as Nohr begins to get a stronger footing in the war, the safety and integrity of Nohr’s people and his family taking precedence.
- In _Revelation,_ his sense of family takes the forefront as he sees sooner what his father is, initially deeply disgusted by the idea that Corrin would abandon any family and love in general but eventually recognizing and acknowledging Corrin’s reasons and, upon learning the truth of things, sides with him and even accepts the Hoshidan royalty as distant siblings or at the very least as friends.
- In the Supports, we simply see the sides of Xander that suppresses when on the battlefield or in the presence of his Father or other Nohrian forces; the insecurities, the doubts, the compassion he’s forced to stifle and everything else. We also see the difference between his demeanors on the battlefield and in private get referenced, between his info-sheet describing him as “the most intimidating man in the army” and Sakura flat-out saying that his stern appearance scares her.
In conclusion Gast, I apologize if this ended up being far too wordy, but it in all honestly feels more like you played two different *games* rather than proved there were two different Xander’s. At no point does what Xander say actually contradict his beliefs, nor did his values actually change or conflict. I apologize in advance if this sounds rude, but, honestly speaking, it feels like a lot of your claims are carelessly made, if not outright contradictory in and of themselves, since everything I cited is something that can be perceived in-game, and I personally believe you would have to be deliberately misreading the near-entirety of the game’s portrayal of him to have come to the the beliefs you came to. Honestly speaking, it’s not hard to see they’re the same character - in fact, I actually believe you’d have to try extremely hard *not* to see them. Again, I’m sorry if I’m sounding rude, but that’s honestly what I believe.
As I've said before, I'll probably have similar breakdowns and/or disagreements with you when or if I get to your other videos... but as it stands, this is likely the one that I disagree with the most wholeheartedly.
Dude oh my gosh you've brought up so many good points!!!!
Thank you for adding your perspective, I really appreciated reading it ^^
why dosethis not agonge this it a good point
I feel like there's a few Three Houses characters that are what Xander wanted to be.
YYYEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSS!!!! ELIWOOD!!! He's my third favourite male lord. And he has to be *The strongest minded Character IN ALL OF FIRE EMBLEM*. And I truely think that.
The inherit problem with comparing the two Xanders is that Support Xander never has to undergo conflict as Story Xander does, there's not much to directly compare thus a lot of your points fall back on "I'm sure Support Xander would do this in this situation". You can definitely say there's a contrast between the two but claiming contradictions is a bit of a stretch with only support Xander to bounce off of. You do make some interesting points without doing this that I think would be interesting to debate but characters can be dynamic, and separating them into actions and words isn't a good enough argument to claim a contradiction in character, especially since the two are literally worlds apart.
Except that by killing Zola and his men, he also prevented a war crime from being committed? Perfidy is considered one of the most heinous war crimes in many settings and in our own world.
great analysis. i like Xander , but i knew something was... off about him in the campaign. i didnt know how to word it. but you explained it really well. watching your vids has helped me opened my eyes to be more observant not just about fates, but any other media work and my own work . thank youu ! (>^-^)>
R.I.P Gabe Blake.