How Your Miniature Game Dies, and What To Do About It.
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ค. 2024
- Its super painful when you've invested time, money, and talent into your gaming hobby, only for your local group to fall apart from the inside. Empathy is the single most important thing to keeping your game group alive.
I learned this the hard way when my local Malifaux group fell apart before my eyes. I learned then that taking care of each other, being empathetic to each other, is a critical component to our gaming hobby's sustainability. Let's see some F's in the comments for our fallen game groups.
![[SUB] 베몬이 교관님 멘탈을 탕탕 후루후루~٩(๑❛ᴗ❛๑)۶ FOREVER 웃게 되는 갓기들의 수련회 | 돌들의침묵 | BABYMONSTER(베이비몬스터) 'FOREVER'](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FISAO7BwIxE/mqdefault.jpg)
May we all be empathetic to one another.
Empathize with us over at the Facebook.
It can be tough, rebuilding a community that died due to drama. Especially for non-GW games because they aren't as ever present. People who only play GW games say "why don't you just play AoS or 40k", but once you play systems outside of the GW ecosystem....the rules are just soooo bad.
It is really like leaving Plato's cave and then chaining yourself back up just because that is where the people are.
Yeah I lied to myself and painted 40K for like a year, but I never wanted to play. I kinda had to drag myself to the store. I really love the people around me who play, but I can’t stomach the game personally. The painting is fun, and I genuinely think the models are good, but there are too many people who think GW legit makes the best models and that kinda irks me a little, too 😅. I don’t want a GW salt channel tho so. Lol.
@@CornerCase That is true, it is not so much salting the channel with anti-GW stuff too. I just wish people who were hardcore into the GW ecosystem played a 2nd miniature game as well.
When I talk to people who play say FFG->Atomic Mass games, or Privateer Press games, or Battletech, they usually play that game AND something else.
But as someone who began miniature gaming in the GW ecosphere, I don't know what it is but you got to be all in. It is a culture. And I know, I used to be in it. My friend had to buy me a Malifaux starter box AND ask me to try for like 2 years to play it, and it took me 2 more years to actually take the game serious. I was too hard core into the cult.
So I guess what I am saying is, if your group fell through, keep playing GW stuff, but also keep doing demos, keep asking people if they want to try a game, keep posting on your local social media. And just keep, keep at it. Always play it painted and with all the gizmos and widgets to make it look cool.
Because if you are an EO starting a non-GW game in a GW space, you are dealing with a cult-ure where just playing 40k AND a 2nd game makes you a heretic, and playing something else and not GW at all makes you the enemy. It is the only community where I have seen this.
And any EO who loves a game and wants to see it grow needs to be ready for what they are dealing with.
Yeah, I have noticed that a lot of GW players don’t even consider other games. At times I have wondered if that part of the culture is a holdover from traditional army games and napoleonics. Like “this is my country/army” tribalism becomes “this is my game” tribalism to GW.
I do think the culture is changing a lot. I think the TTRPG community is probably a few years ahead of wargaming at this point, but that category of stuff has a pretty diverse and thriving independent community outside the traditional DnD stuff.
I have played a lot of TTRPG systems, and many of the contemporary wargaming systems, and I play MTG regularly, so the GW ecosphere looks a little absurd to me at times. There are definitely things to like, but any concept of supremacy is unfounded. You don’t gotta turn your head 90 degrees to see a Gundam kit with 3x more plastic is selling for $15 vs any GW kit lol. The whole thing doesn’t make sense haha.😂😂😂
I think GW player think more about to build a second or third army in GW systems and avoid to get out this ecosystem. Just my experience thru reading in online Community’s.
I'm guessing the reasons that groups break up are the same as the ones that make Facebook groups bog down in acrimony. I've found that a lot of gamers just lack social skills.
Haha your words!! Not mine!! 😂😂
As a gamer for the last 30 years, I have to say that it's the fickle nature of gamers. It's not always the lack of empathy or disagreements that destroy a game, it's people becoming disillusioned with how a game plays. Too many changes or too stagnant. And that unfortunately is never a pattern you can track.
That’s good insight. Appreciate it. With my definitely-less-than-30-years experience, I’ve already seen a few turns of the wheel. I can believe that it has everything to do with people’s unpredictability.
You have to bring in fresh blood as often as possible. Really work at it - make those newbies feel welcome, help them out, and don't use them as punching bags to flex your ego or your latest tournament list.
On the other side of that, you have to prune the group. I've seen groups fall apart because 1 person was toxic. Or because the group got too "clique-y" at the top. It's uncomfortable, but you've got to be willing to have those confrontations where you tell someone that they're being a detriment, and that if they don't start to shape up, you're going to ask them to leave (and back it up by actually asking them to leave if it gets to that point). Get rid of the guy who cheats, who slow-plays, who smells like feet, who makes everything political - get those people out before they start scaring off those new players.
It's hard to manage a community when it's all happening inside of a store. So don't do that. Stores are good for bringing in new players to your club by hosting demo days, events, and tournaments. But regular gaming should be handled via a discord or a facebook group, at a club location or people's homes. That way, pruning can happen without it being done in the store.
Wow you sound like you’ve got a lot of experience. Can I talk to you more about it? HMU over our Facebook group if you don’t mind.
I can already tell the local hobby group I have joined 6 months ago and have played the first 7 games of my 40k "career" with, are quite similar to the toxicity in the top clique you describe. As there is a few dudes who definitely seem quite gatekeeperish towards me, as I'm a fairly conveniently attractive man (women think so, not me boosting my ego) and am extremely easy going so have won quite a few of the more gatekeeper, fellow nerds but there is the so called "top 3" of the group which are the organisers and one of their close friends. Who for whatever reason just seem to enjoy the fact that I earn less money than most of them and the other hobbyists and so can't buy the models they "suggest" quite rudely to me to get, as "it will actually give you chances to win games that aren't 1k points" etc. as they will laugh whenever I suggest I might get a model, as the rules look useful and the model looks cool. Just to be told "you'll definitely want something that's a bit more meta ATM, that really sucks and I definitely wouldn't waste money on it" but when I ask them what they'd recommend instead, they just hit me with "ask one of the Eldar players or just google it we can't be expected to remember what's meta in your army as well as ours" and will then go on to preach about how they don't want people to chase metas as were mainly here to just play casual games anyway blah blah blah.
Sorry for the vent, I just saw the comment and it spoke to me quite a lot
The problem is people are getting invested into the game but not the hobby. I enjoy building and painting and that is what I enjoy and what I focus on the most. The gaming portion is a pleasant bonus for me and I treat it as an opportunity to show off my work and display my models differently during that roughly 2 to 3 hour period. If I never gamed with my models it wouldn't bother me. I've never played a game with the model aircraft and ships that I've built, my lego collection or my Transformers and other action figures and that doesn't bother me either.
Even with the X-wing miniatures game, one of the biggest draws for me is that even if Atomic Mass/Asmodee ever loses the license to produce the game and it dies, the models are a consistent 1/285 scale which will be great for making dioramas with.
That’s a super great POV. I’m gna reflect on this. I’m the same way. I am a hobbyist and collector first. In my most negative thoughts, I’ve sometimes blamed the pursuit of competitive gaming for many system’s culture degradation.
That is a shame. Hate to see any kind of gaming community dissolve like that. Especially Malifaux. I just got into it 3E and it's crazy how much I'm enjoying it and how little I'm playing 40K lately lol. I'm not really into a scene at the FLGS. I've got a group of 4 other friends who are actually friends first, gaming buddies second. I think that makes a huge difference, but man it's hard to find...
Yeah that’s a nice situation, man. I’ve definitely made some lifelong friends gaming, but I’d be hard pressed to say I have more than 2 real friends in any given group specifically for games. It does make a huge difference. I wish you continued good experiences in this regard 🙏
Great vlog, really good topic that needs more discussion imho. When your hobby is something you want to get the most out of you've got to cultivate those friendships associations with people that will make the whole experience something positive, otherwise people will just gravitate towards the local heard game (usually 40k/MGT). Subbed :)
Thanks Fin! The people part of the hobby is my favorite part 👌, and it doesn’t get talked about enough.
I love the shirt. Image doesn’t get enough love. Also, this topic hits right in the feels, as a large portion of our play group has all had kids and has very limited time to play. There are fewer and fewer opportunities for us to play. For those that still have time to play, a space to play in, and amazing “balanced” games with healthy metas, don’t take it for granted. Please, please, enjoy those nights. Enjoy them for those of us who can’t in the meantime.
Thanks Noxious Bones! I had to double-check the video to see which one I was wearing. Haha, yeah, for the channel I prefer to wear some choice tees like Image Comics, Gen Con, Dungeons & Diners & Dragons & Drive-Ins & Dives. You're the first person to comment XD.
Yeah, I was pretty emotional writing this script, too. After the Malifaux break down, I tried to play 40k thinking "maybe the best game is the game that everyone plays." But it didn't take me long to realize I wasn't being honest with myself. I played a few games of 40K, and couldn't do it. Painting it is fun, but that game design is not my cuppatea, and in if I'm not being tactful, actually kinda trash IMO.
So super agree with you Noxious Bones. I don't take play groups for granted, and I do wish everyone the best in this regard. Appreciate and empathize with each other. Thanks again Noxious Bones!
Good choice of topic. You might consider expanding it in another video, and cover the various reasons groups disintegrate -- and perhaps what to do about it. I've found that we in the Minneapolis / St. Paul area may have the opposite (?) problem from the one I've seen here: The wide array of minis games can really splinter a community. It's tough to get one group of friends to stick to a game for a long time, because various members want to try different games -- which gets expensive -- or they miss a game session to attend another group's session for a different game.
That’s an awesome problem to have! Thanks for the advice. I think I can explore this topic more. It’s close to my heart.
I got into Infinity a little after the release of N3. The was a small but strong group in my area. ( southern Wisconsin) i brought with me 6 other potential players. Im not really sure what happened. But there was some type of falling out and Infinity night fell apart. And as the new guy i was not ready privy to the details. I tried to get the 6 potential people together, and it worked for a bit. But people moved. Work and family happened. I still paint and my one buddy and i get together to play at least once or twice a month. But it is a fragile thing a game group. And once it falls apart it is hard to rebuild.
Yeah, it’s a lot of commitment. You really need the TO / cat herder guy to keep it up. It’s a thankless job. Especially when I can just hop on Magic Arena, and get a random game in with a stranger within 20 seconds, quit and try again until I get a favorable matchup =/. It’s contemporary society on top of already regular cat herding people problems
ive had a 40k gaming group of about 12 years fall apart due to some noobs that wanted to misinterpret the rules wrong on purpose - some of the group defended the noobs for the sake of "inclusivity" instead of helping curb the noobs BS and help them learn the game correctly.
after a while of people butting heads with the noobs, the noobs started to sour the group by trying to put people against each other - which did work. and thats how a handful of noobs ruined a group of friends that met up and played against each other twice a week for 12 years.
so yeah, thats why im an advocate for "gatekeeping" becuase noobs are often toxic "know-it-alls" that take being correctly overly personally
Hm. I would never forget that kind of situation ever, either. I am sorry for that horrible experience. Don’t generalize too hard tho. I was a noob at one point in my life. Sounds like you got some really bad ones. What do you mean by gate keeping, though? Just curious-I only see that word usually as it pertains to certain army lists.
@@CornerCase by simply being weary of who joins your gaming group, don't attempt to include an entire other group at once. Make sure everyone interprets and uses the rules correctly.
I moved back to battletech about 2.5 years ago, after an about 12 year hiatus. Infinitely better community, and I'm working on building resources for qhen my son and step son are old enough to start to learn war gaming.
Sounds like your course of action is pretty reasonable. Just being cautious is super fair. People have been telling me more about Battletech. I had no clue it was even something to return to. Looks pretty fun. I know your kids’ll love the hobby.
@@CornerCase battletech is worth it - its also been around since 1984.
its rule set is solid, and really hasnt changed at all - its entirely balanced - and there isnt any meta.
although in alpha strike, it needs revisions because they simplified it a bit too much, in ways that will introduce meta into any tournament scene
Interesting. I should take a look at the rules. I'm actually a little more interested in qualitative or flexible rule systems. It sounds like if it's too simplified for some, it might be something I'd like hahaha. I don't like slow play. I think a faster gameplay is more immersive than a rule system with higher definition but slower play.
Love the video! As an old whfb fan I get it. I tried AoS but it just doesn't have what I love about the game that died for it to live, and I still haven't found another army size game that scratches the itch.
Huge Malifaux fan BTW, getting into 3e is definitely worth it.
This is the best part of the channel for me is being able to meet people like you. I started miniature games in 2014, so I always love hearing about that context and history I wasn’t around for. Thanks for hanging out!
This can be applied to all aspects of life mate. Empathise with others is so needed...
Can’t be more true-now more than ever.
Good thoughts. At the end of the day, all we have is each other.
🥲 thanks! Well said.
I know that feeling way to well. Flames of War is not big around me so I have spent a lot of time organizing it. I have run 3 tournments at conventions with no support. Due to the Surge I had to cancel the upcoming tournament. The group has not had a single post since I had to do that. I am going to have to get some games in again and see if I can get everyone active.
That's rough, man. It's not any fault of your own, and you're doing everything you can. Keep fighting the good fight. If you build it, they will come. I'm trying to build Malifaux back up around me, but with the pandemic, it can feel kinda hopeless sometimes. Participating in the online communities really helps, though.
The move from x-wing to 2.0 caused all 7 of my local shop to quit. We would travel all over the tri-state and we just stopped.
I feel ya, man. So many friends from X-Wing that never hopped over to other miniature games. Whole communities quit.
Did X-Wing 2.0 really die out? Cause from how I’ve seen it, it’s flourishing pretty well
I think it's just different. I think the community is mostly online from what I've seen. It's definitely not like the heyday of all like 12 stores in the bay area had an x-wing night so you could reliably play pick-up games 6 days of the week, and tournaments almost every week. Back then, I would just randomly decide to go to a tournament if i found myself free on a saturday, and on those days, I was high prob to just run into some friends unplanned. The absolute prevalence of the store scene was crazy good.
@@CornerCase I do agree on the online community part. I guess over here in NJ I’m kinda used to seeing X-Wing doing pretty well but as you mentioned, it’s more on one store with some other stores once in awhile popping up with tournaments.
The moment you hear someone say they are not playing with a someone you know its over
no matter what happens from that moment its over
because if you oust that individual then someone else will be next
if you choose not to oust that individual then your now on the hit list
if you oust the person who is calling the shots they tend to take someone with them
Omg. Sounds like you had a really rough time of it before. That kind of hobby hostage situation sounds really toxic. I’m so sorry you had to go through that. Keep fighting the good fight.
Nice channel dude. I’ll sub on. Keep it up!
Thank you! Let us know if there’s ever anything you’d wanna see!
RIP Armada...
spoken like a true designer. big up.
Haha what does this mean? 😂
@@CornerCase it is a compliment and display of respect from a fellow designer
Haha I just meant what’s designery about my pov? But appreesh either way. Always nice to hear from you
Malifaux is fun but IMHO very niche. The card mechanic is fun but not easy to pick up when you're used to the D6 system in Warhammer. I really like the art style, but I didn't used to because it seemed like Tim Burton-meets-Todd Macfarlane.
I’ll not lie, I had a difficult time getting into the art direction at first as well. I am a huge proponent of the card system though. Like, really huge. Nice avatar btw. Love Vash.
pouring one out for your malifaux community
😢
Netrunner and Doomtown R.I.P.
✊✊✊
@Corner Case I have a question have you even played a video game like mmo games, rpg video games or any other video games besides tabletop games?
Thanks for the comment, James! Please, tell us more 😏
CMON had Dark Age, me and my friends won most major tournaments, they switched up the design team and moved to annual releases of rules… killed the group, all 11 of us quit
That game always looked super cool to me. I was always interested, but there wasn’t a local meta, and it seemed like the heyday was over by the time I was interested.
I always played with my best friend, but he fell under hard times, sold his armies, and stopped playing. I'm still into 40k, but it's not much fun anymore without a buddy to paint with and fight against. Do I keep going, even by myself?
It’s a great hobby! Be honest with your feelings. You know deep down. If it makes you happy, that’s enough reason. I had a difficult time with this type of situation before. If my Malifaux group fell apart, but I still like Malifaux, what do I do? It took me 3 years to unpack that deep down I actually really like it, and it makes me happy. That’s enough reason. I wish your friend better times in the future, and I wish you a fulfilling hobby, no matter what you end up doing 🙏
You own the game? You own the miniatures? The game never dies, not with social media. It's not like you can't find anyone to play and these days with resin 3d printers and high quality results you don't even have to look for minis anymore.. I mean I'm playing Warmaster and thinking about doing Epic 40k again, these games have been dead for 20 years lol. The companies are not the hobby, the hobby stores are not the hobby, the Uber fanbois who gatekeep their Fandom are not the hobby.. the players are the hobby and with the internet and social media you can always find someone willing to play unless you live on top of a Mountain in the middle of nowhere and don't want to travel and they've never been lucky at getting a game at any point in time. I live in NYC, with its greater metro population of 25+ million people I don't care how obscure and dead is a little putting feelers out will turn up someone to play with.
You’ve got an awesome attitude! Thanks for sharing it with us!
"Hey man want to play some Malifaux?"
Sure! Let me pull out my Nicode-
"Oh, shoot. Sorry man he...he's dead."
Ok, I'll pull out mah Ra-
"Sorry. Nope"
Damn, well I saved the best for last...the greatest, bestest most wonderful and favorite in all of Malifaux COOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLOOO-
"Gunna have to stop ya right there..."
Damn...so. Wanna play some 2nd or Dead Man's Hand?
"No."
😢
Good advice from the video though!
I've been keeping WFB alive in these parts here since the great fall myself. Even got folks to try previous editions and Warhammer Armies Projects since they're less strung up on "only official and up to date".
Haha as a Ramos main, I feel you, man. They’ll come back! Keep fighting the good fight!!!
That’s because video games and video game rpg games and mmo games are the reason why.
Stuff like this is sad and awful when it happens. Covid killed lots of my connection to my group and I just hope I’ll get it back one day soon. Stay strong out their brothers. In the end we all need each other to stay strong.
Well said, Kevin. We all need to stay strong together. Hang in there, man.
One of my groups started a game right before the pandemic, and after a year of playing over discord, at some point, I realized that that game had become a cornerstone of my mental well-being. It's crazy how much these games can play such a pivotal role in our lives. But it makes sense--the social connections, the creativity, the stability of a regular schedule. It's really quite amazing.
Warhammer fantasy was an ouch. X wing died off also, less invested but still. Kool marines bud.
Thanks Paul! I know a lot of people who are still carrying the WFB flag. I wasn’t playing at the time. My neighbor has a million WFB armies. Honestly AoS looks super sick. Too bad the way they rolled it out, it never looks like it’s super successful.
Then there's me just building and painting minis cause they're cool
Also me, secretly building and painting my blood angels army, but not talking about it on the channel because of my miniatures games politics 😂
@@CornerCase always got to have an army in the back pocket just in case lol
Metal miniatures
LOL. Yes, the Marut made me cry.
You know you love my nagging :P
Thanks for organizing our local 40k community, Sandeep. HEY. EVERYBODY. THIS GUY IS A T.O.
I'm sure infinity would be way more popular if they would do something other than metal minis
They’ve got the pre-assembled plastics incoming. I actually think it’s just the whole marketing thing. Games Workshop even designs it’s games around the Marketing. The fact that they can prescribe the gameplay in marketing like “command phase, psychic, movement, shooting, charge, combat” makes people feel like they can understand the game.
@@CornerCase bro if the ariadna line gets plastic or resin line ill jump right in!
I think it’s some models to start, definitely not all. But I know CB tends to refresh as quickly as possible, so I’m curious to see how quickly everything changes over.
Yes I \we lost firestorm and dust
Firestorm Armada and Dust Tactics?? I always thought Dust Tactics models were super frickin cool 😎
at this rate im gonna go miniature agnostic games.
We’ve been having good talks about that over on our Facebook page. Any game is mini-agnostic with the right attitude!
Warhammer 40k video games are doing better but it’s sad that the tabletop Warhammer 40k is getting worst now even commissar gamza is right that GW doesn’t care about their fans.
I admittedly watch a little Gamza. I don’t always agree with him, but I think his content is always a little fun.
Honestly 40k has continued to be successful despite gw's best efforts to torpedo whatever amount of good will they have.
It's one of the strange mysteries of the cosmos that GW still has any respect among the wargaming community.
Lets see what broke up my groups. Age, money, age, money, distance, burnout constantly being the GM no matter what. Sadly now that covid has raged for 2ish years entire communities are going to stay shattered because they grew up and on from playing in face games. Toss in the insane prices more companies are charging * hi there Gouge Workshop* its just not easy to justify this kind of spending.
Yeah, I’m going through that phase rn where it’s pretty rough to get games in because of my responsibilities. Our GM tho, his kids are like 12 and 10 years old now, and he’s been able to run games for us really consistently the last 5 years. So I feel like there’s kindof a light at the end of the tunnel in that regard. Can’t rationalize GW pricing. If you look at Gundam’s business, they are able to provide a 1/144 scale model for under $20USD, and that’s more plastic than an intercessor box.