Can an Italian Understand Ladin? Val Badia Variety
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2023
- Can an Italian understand the Ladin language?
Links to the videos I reacted to
• Video
• The Sound of the Val B...
Ladin (/ləˈdiːn/ lə-DEEN,[5][6] UK also /læˈdiːn/ la-DEEN;[7] autonym: ladin; Italian: ladino; German: Ladinisch) is a Romance language of the Rhaeto-Romance subgroup, mainly spoken in the Dolomite Mountains in Northern Italy in the provinces of South Tyrol, Trentino, and Belluno, by the Ladin people. It exhibits similarities to Romansh, spoken in Switzerland, as well as Friulian, spoken in north-east Italy.
The precise extension of the Ladin language area is a subject of scholarly debate. A more narrow perspective includes only the dialects of the valleys around the Sella group, while wider definitions comprise the dialects of adjacent valleys in the Province of Belluno and even dialects spoken in the northwestern Trentino.[8][9]
A standard variety of Ladin (Ladin Dolomitan) has been developed by the Office for Ladin Language Planning as a common communication tool across the whole Ladin-speaking region.[10]
Geographic distribution
Contraction of the area of the Rhaeto-Romance languages
Ladin is recognized as a minority language in 54 Italian municipalities[11] belonging to the provinces of South Tyrol, Trentino and Belluno. It is not possible to assess the exact number of Ladin speakers, because only in the provinces of South Tyrol and Trentino are the inhabitants asked to identify their native language in the general census of the population, which takes place every 10 years.
South Tyrol
In the 2011 census, 20,548 inhabitants of South Tyrol declared Ladin as their native language.[2] Ladin is an officially recognised language, taught in schools and used in public offices (in written as well as spoken forms).[12]
#ladino #romance #italian
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Sometimes it sounds like German. Sometimes it sounds like Russian. Sometimes it sounds like French. Sometimes it sounds like italian.
As Brazilian I understood just a few words.
I am so intrigued that Europe in general and Italy in particular has small enclaves of separate languages unintelligible by their neighbors. In the United States there are such enclaves on Native American reservations of course but that is due to a completely different dynamic. You open my eyes to the complex rich language history of Europe; indeed, our world.
One thing is an enclave and another is a different language of the same continuum. This is the language of the continuum, but it is normally difficult for a Sicilian to understand. Logically it is less difficult for speakers from a closer region.
True enclaves are like valleys where Slovenian is spoken or places where a Byzantine Greek dialect or a 15th-century Albanian dialect is spoken.
Yeah indeed, they have nothing in common. Like, nothing.
@@Arthur-pc1eh Yes, but Italy is also strange in another sense. In the South, for example, there are villages that speak a relic of the Gallo-Romance language. In that case, although Sicilian speakers would be closer as kms to place, this languages are more likely understendable for a Piedmontese speaker, who would be much further away.
I think you'll find a similar mosaic of languages if you compare the different native American languages (of what is left of them).
Italian 'dialetto' are really regional languages in the same 'Italo' group, so they are partially intelligible and many people speak 'standard' ( Florence dialect ) these days but many do not also. It is similar in all western Europe to a degree or another, though maybe bigger differences still in Italy, maybe as the big regional distances but also Italy did not exist really until the late 1800s and intensive emphasis on standardising did not start until after WW2. In Britain by contrast, intensive standardising via education reforms, started in around 1912. Prior to this, regional British could be almost like different languages, or the dialects were much more pronounced and even there as regional spelling, even in local government documents. Germany and Spain also did not exist really as modern united nation states until the late 1800s.
"Can a Latin speaker understand Proto-Indo-European?"
This would be a nice video collab with Polymathy 😊
Metatron isn't as fluent as Ranieri, but his Latin level is definitely high enough for him to survive in Rome (I studied Latin too for context, so I'm not just guessing), so he would be a perfect subject to test PIE comprehension on. But the reconstruction of PIE pronunciation can't always be pinpointed with certainty.
Meta speaking of Ladin, you should do a video on if you can understand Ladino, which is the fifteenth century Spanish that Sephardic Jews took with them across Europe and the Middle East when they were expelled from Spain.
Was just about to suggest that. I'd specifically be interested to see how much Haketía he could understand in particular
Are Ladin and Ladino as similar as Slovak and Slovene? All these languages retain the name of their ancestors.
@@pierreabbat6157 Not quite. Ladino is Spanish but spoken and written with Hebrew syntax.Since Hebrew is a Semitic language it's syntax is somewhat different to Indo-European languages (such as the Romance languages Meta is being shown). While Slovak and Slovene are both Slavic languages and thus share mostly similar syntactical elements.
Very interesting. Ladin, officially recognised as such, is spoken in 3 Italian provinces - Bolzano-Bozen (Badia-Gadertal and Gardena-Gröden), Trento (Fassa) and Belluno (Cortina).
The speakers in Bolzano province are nowadays, because of compulsory education, bilingual with German, and those in the other provinces with Italian, so this obviously affects their accents.
Concerning the ü sound, this is shared with Piedmontese, Ligurian, Lombard and Western Emilian and in fact derives from Latin long U as it does in French, as in "lüna" = moon, and not from German, eg. the numbers in Western Lombard:
vün, dü, tri, quater, cinch, ses, set, vot, növ, des, very similar to Ladin.
Two Ladin surnames which seem to be German but are in fact Romance: Kostner (from a person who lives on the side of valley, "la costa") and Rungaldier ("roncoliere", a person who uses a "roncola", which is a kind of short curved knife used to cut grape vines).
PS. My reference to official recognition refers to the fact that other dialects, close to Ladin in the Veneto region (Cadore, etc.) and in the province of Trento (Val di Sole and Val di Non) are not recognised as Ladin by the Italian authorities. Whether they are or not is debatable. These dialects have for instance "chasa" for "casa", etc.
PPS: The Ladin flag represents the BLUE sky, WHITE snow and GREEN vegetation.
The other varieties you mentioned like cadorino are varieties of venetan dialect with some ladin influences. Not varieties of ladin language.
All ladins can speak italian. Including those in the province of bolzano. In the province of bolzano lots of ladins also can speak german to some extent.
I'm just curious if you could get Luke Raniery to do one of these with you. I wonder if his deep understanding of Latin would make it easier or harder for him.
I second this!
Thank you for the discovery of this language, and thank you for the fascinating journey in the world of languages, dialects, accents and more.
I did not understand what was said. It was hard for me. I speak French and English(unfortunately not a perfect accent like yours or/and like the English). I have learned but have forgotten German. I'm self-studying Japanese, Italian, trying to retry German, and to improve my English. Not quite the easy task.
Anyway, thank you for the video, and sharing your passion and knowledge about languages. Have a good day, you and everybody. Cheers and bless you all.
I think for romance languages with few speakers it's important to consider that they have probably been massively influenced by the main language of the area of the speakers live. In this case German and Italian. Both in terms of pronunciation and in terms of vocabulary. I suspect, for instance, ciao is just the Italian ciao that entered the ladin language. Also the German sounds may be due to the fact that those speakers often speak German (south Tyrol dialect, which also has many Italian words in it)
Ciao is Venetian.
There has been no historical influence of german or italian toward ladin in lexicon phonetics or morphology. The proof is that it keeps the same phonetics and morphology it had in 1300.
The official language historically was standard italian as the ladin valleys belonged to what was considered the italian speaking tyrol.
And until 1861 noone went to school so the official language had no impact.
The litterary language was ladin. The fact that ladin had independent literature and that the official language was italian and that the official language had no impact is proven by the fact ladin was not historically influenced by italian or german in lexicon phonetics or morphology.
the proof is the fact ladin to this day mantains the same phonetics snd morphology it had in 1300
Also the main language in the area has ameays been ladin. Not italian or german. In the ladin valleys 100 years ago noone spoke italian or german as native languages.
Ladin speakers dont speak german with other ladin speakers.
Living in Australia and being of Sicilian and Veneto origins there are some similarities with Veneto dialect which I am reasonably familiar with. If I didn’t understand Veneto I would be more at the 30% level but the Veneto familiarity brings it up to around the 40% level.
Bel video e complimenti
I would be interested if you could do a video on the Cimbro language which is spoken in the Asiago region. My nonno who I never met spoke it
Ciao
Adriano
Hey mate! Nice that you made a video about the ladin language, being a french guy living in Val Badia, i appreciate haha. I don't speak ladin fluently, but from my knowledge, the only ladino dla Val Badia i could recognise from the first video was the old woman speaking. The woman from the radio was definitely speaking the ladin from Val Gardena. The boy I'm not sure though, maybe a southern one like ladin from Fassa, can't tell for sure.. Here in Val Badia people have a thrilled R, like in Italian, but in Val Gardena they have the rough "R", since their variety is much more influenced by German.
Cheers!
Thanks, I almost wrote the exact same comment on the more trilling Rs in Val Badia and the usually not trilling ones in Val Gardena. At 2:20 the road sign says "Selva di Gardena" and the young woman works at a radio station in Val Gardena. I'm glad Metatron did a video about this language! I worked in Corvara/Val Badia during one summer season and I had a fabulous time there and learned a few words in the end!
There has been no historical influence of german or italian toward ladin in lexicon phonetics or morphology. The proof is that it keeps the same phonetics and morphology it had in 1300.
The official language historically was standard italian as the ladin valleys belonged to what was considered the italian speaking tyrol.
And until 1861 noone went to school so the official language had no impact.
The litterary language was ladin. The fact that ladin had independent literature is proven by the fact it was not historically influenced by italian or german in lexicon phonetics or morphology.
the proof is the fact ladin to this day mantains the same phonetics snd morphology it had in 1300. This is the simple truth. Regardless if you like it or not.
Fascinating! The other week I visited Ortisei while on holiday, and in the church there a teacher was rehearsing a group of children in some prayers. They seemed to be alternating between Italian and Ladin; the latter I couldn't understand at all but the rhythm seemed a bit like Italian. I don't think any of them spoke German which is the first language of many nearby places.
There is an Easter egg in the first video: The lady who works at the radio station is not from Val Badia but from Ortisei in Val Gardena.
You said several times that "they're cutting off the final vowels." This is a misconception. Many words in Ladin, as well as in other regional languages of Northern Italy (including Furlan!), end in consonants. In these cases, unlike with Italian, there are no final vowels to pronounce.
Nice video. I'm a Furlan speaker and I remember many years ago I was in Plan de Corones and heard a bit of this beautiful language.
They told me it has some connection with Furlan; but, honestly. neither then nor now I can understand more than sparse single words... Very different from my language. I got the word for "vacca", which sounds very similar to the Friulian one and might be much harder to spot for an Italian speaker.
Friulian, Ladin and Romansh belong to the same sub group/branch
Très intéressant. J’aime cette langue 😊
Je parle le français, l’espagnol et l’anglais. J’ai compris à peu près 40%
Ouais, c’est vrai que beaucoup des sons de cette langue ressemblent des sons français.
This is closer to Romanian and Catalan because of the final consonants. Cinci 5
Thank you very much for this video... It's hard to find fellow Ladins here in the USA!
The word endings often sound like Romanian to me.
Me encantaría ver el video de Venetó.
Would be very cool, but i can see as a venetian speaker that it is more understandible for an italian speaker, its surely more complicated (but not impossible) the gallo-italic languages...
You should react to the Italian spoken in Brazil called Talian aka Brazilian Venetian.
He can do venetian and than talian to see the difference
That's actually a form of Venetian
Hey Metatron! Have you ever heard of the language "Talian"? It's an official language in two Brazillian cities and it's a mix between brazillian portuguese and venetian (yes, from the Veneto region in Italy, haha) that originated after the big italian migration in the mid to late 19th century and early 20th century. (Reposted comment)
I so much want you to hear the difference between Ladin and Nones. It is very similar to Ladin, but with more Italian. There is a huge argument as to whether it should be protected like Ladin or remain considered just a dialect. I would love to hear your opinion. Val di Sole has a very similar language. Vi en got.
I speak Italian as well and I picked out the same key words as you lol I agree it seems to have a lot of German flare
So much linguistic diversity
Have you considered doing a video attempting to understand Ladino aka Judaeo-Spanish.
It's interesting that they dont roll the "r" although Austrians do that
Ever try understanding Ladino? E c’è qualcosa simile in Italia con la comunità ebraica?
C'era un idioma parlato in piemonte
as person studying Latin, I am picking up so many Latin words
Can you do a language guessing video. Where you hear audio clips of different languages and try to guess them.
Talian language, please
I think people understanding a foreign language (spanish, italian, etc.) better than regional languages from their own country is due to exposure.
I am familiar with the strong German accent from the Rhaeto-Romance spoken in Switzerland, which is of course closely related. Very obvious examples of this are the German 'r' (not rolled, but also different from French 'r') and the German 'sp' (pronounced 'shp'). (Rolled 'r's are possible though not common in normal German speakers, but of course you expect that to be more common where the national language is Italian. Rolled 'r's are also something that professional speakers of German acquire, so I would expect it even more from professional Rhaeto-Romance speakers.) At least in Switzerland, even the spelling is clearly German influenced. For example, the road through the national park at Pass dal Fuorn has signs saying "NON FÄR FÖ", which is easy to understand if you pretend it's poor French spelled phonetically by a German speaker.
Here is my speculation on the origin of this phenomenon: I guess it is the result of many centuries of interaction between German and Rhaeto-Romance speakers with the German of the region being a later arrival that never got fully detached from the German dialect continuum, and Rhaeto-Romance as the older language being more isolated from Italian for some reason. This could be because it started out with a strong influence from the original Rhaetic language (believed to be related to Etruscan). This situation must have ensured that the influence between the two regional languages wasn't symmetrical, making the German influence on Rhaeto-Romance stronger than it would otherwise have been.
Rolled R is the normality in Latin as in neo-Latin, but there are enclaves of the German R in North Italy (for example, in the province of Alessandria, in Piedmont). I don't consider the Pellice Valley (where there are a Waldisian minority), because there the case is a direct influence of the parisian French in the 19th century.
There has been no historical influence of german toward ladin in lexicon phonetics or morphology. The proof is that it keeps the same phonetics snd morphology it had in 1300.
I have heard the is a Jewish Romance language. Ladino... It's like Yiddish for German
Yeah, Ladino comes from medieval Jewish Spanish. It's not very closely related to the Ladin language in this video, though.
Ladino is just Old Spanish and easy to understand by any Spanish speaker.
@@Neoprototype Is Old Spanish as hard to learn for Modern Spanish students than Old English is to their counterparts? The oldest text I know that's in Spanish is Don Quixote (which is roughly when Shakespeare was alive, aka the period in which English was spoken in its Early Modern variety).
@@mariosportsmaster7662 Don Quixote (first edition original in Castilian ~1600) is very intelligible for a portuguese person (except for one or another archaism). Even Marquis de Santillana's letters ( ~1450 Castilian) seem to be quite accessible...🤫
Try a language that looks like it (spelt nearly the same way) that's called Ladino. Ladino is basically Hebrew mixed with Spanish (with a sprinkle of Arabic mixed in) and was/is the language spoken by Sephardi Jews (Jews who settled in the Iberian peninsula).
You know I thought about suggesting this one....but it's a such a small language I didn't know if it was worth it.
I’m surprised how much it sounds like romanian, especially the numbers.
Ladino next too? 😅
*I heard a nasal "n" when it follows a vowel, which of course is common in French. Did you hear it, as well?*
Hi! I think you get less because you are a southner Italian, I'm from Milan and I'm able to get a little bit more than you.
Love the way Italian sounds
Could you do a video on understanding peruvian Spanish? Please
Can an Italian understand Klingon?
What about Capiche?
It also has some Romanian flair in its echo
Oh my gosh! That is bizarre…I barely understood anything.
Hi ! Try " Ladino ". next , it's more related to Spanish though , As a Spanish Speaker I understand like 80%.
Wrong Ladino! You're talking about the Old Spanish descended language spoken in the Middle East...this is an odd ancient Latin language of its own similar to Rhaeto-Romance
I am bit confused, doesn't the lady that runs the radio show speak Val Gardena Ladin since she said she is from St. Ulrich?
Yes indeed she said she's from Ortisei (so the westernmost town in Val Gardena) and runs the radio programs in Ladin there. I'm not a native whatsover but I've visited all these valleys and towns several times, and i can say from an Italian perspective that Badiot is easier on the ear
@@midnightsun978 Thanks! Yeah i would agree Badiot is easier on the ear, but i kinda like that Gherdëina dialect is very distinctive
The other Ladino--Judeo-Spanish--would be interesting.
Can an Italian read Dante’s Inferno? It’s from a different time period, so I wasn’t sure
We do study it in school but we have to translate some things because some words are different and used in a different manner, so an Italian who never studied it would not understand for the most of it
You should, as an English speaker, with a native English speaker wife do this for Dutch
7:55 quite strange to see ć in a Latin based language 😮
There's a semi failed project to speak a common Slavic language. I wonder if you could do the same for Romance languages. I don't think the French would do well.
What a great example of intrinsic european diversity ... I would even argue, probably the most diverse of all places on the planet. Not only judging from all the different languages within the continent. So, the notion that Europe needs to become "more diverse" (uttered by certain people for supposedly lacking in that particular department), seems completely ludicrous if not asinine to me
Can an Italian understand Istriot
By the title I thought you were trying ladino, the Jewish lenguaje that branched off 16th century Spanish.
Ladin (Gardenese version) is my fifth an least language
I understood 100% of the sentences 😎 (I'm from Val Badia and speak Ladin as first language)
Da ola ies pa? Da ciun paisc dla val badia? Ie pa l ladin ti seul lingaz dla oma o no? Ie mini: as mparà l ladin sciche lingaz dla oma y do a scola l talian y l tudesch o as mparà plu de n lingaz sciche lingac dla oma?
@@libertaslibertas5923 cun "first language", minâi lingaz dla uma, e. spo ai imparè l talian, tudësc y inglesc, a scora. i à la uma badiota y l pêre fodom. I sun da [redacted].
@@SpeckyYT y ti lingaz dla una ie pa l badiot, l fodom o tramedoi?
@@libertaslibertas5923 m mì lingaz dla uma é badiot
@@SpeckyYT y tan de agn aste pa?
Sicilians say Capice? And that's really permeated American culture
Kebab (cebab, čevap)
The word "Ladin" evolved from..."Latin"...?
Basically yeah, same with Ladino in Spain.
probably. the D and T frequently shift in European languages. two vs duo for example
It could be that Ladin is not from Latin but the other way around.
Romanians have almost exactly the same numerals and they are formed far away from the Dolomites.
Romanian comes from Ladin, Dacian, not Latin. Wow 😮😮😮😮
Why Romanian Isn't Like Other Languages - because it is the closest to Ladin
Origin of Romanic languages in Ladin, not in Latin. Amazing.
Ladin and Ladino is the Semitic language, mother of all European languages.
It is not that Spanish influenced this language. It is the other way around.
Latin America is in fact Ladino America 🇺🇸.
The continent where Ladinos or Jews emigrated.
I always thought it has something to do with romance languages from Europe, but it is even prior to Americo Vespucci.
Wow.
It all makes sense.
It comes full circle.
Incredible.
Ladino, romance language spoken in Israel 🇮🇱
We found the connection with the language spoken by the tribe of Dan, the Dacian, back to Israel.
Incredible.
Ladino.
Latin America, could be Ladino America.
70% Jewish genes in Latin America. Either Ashkenazi or of the lost tribes of Israel.
A huge revelation for today.
Zal-Moxis Dacia Dan
Look for the Serpent's Trail
If you consider the other Romanian like languages such as Aromanian, istroromanian and others, that developed away from Dacia, you cannot say that the Dacian language was Latinised.
And you cannot say that Aromanian is Latinised Greek.
Because the way the latin words are spoken into these languages is close to Romanian and not Latin.
How can a Latinised Greek develop 2000 km away from Dacia in the exact way as the Latinised Dacian language?
No chance.
It is more like Dacian language was a language that gave birth to Latin.
Important to know!!!!
Dacians and Sarmatians are THE LOST TRIBES OF ISRAEL.
Sarmatians are Samaritans.
Dacians are the Dan's. The lost tribe of Dan.
They colonized first what became Thracia and Dacia and move forward up north when the Romans invaded Dacia and colonized Scandinavia known as Province of Dacia and formed also countries like Olan-da, Dan-mark.
The people living in Olanda/Holland/The Netherlands, are called Dutch (pronounced Daci)
They were also Dacians.
Dan-mark was called Dacia in the 4th century.
The tribe of Dan, colonized Iberia, France and Wallonia, as well as Irland and Scotland.
Zal-Moxis was Chief Moses, the God of the Dacians. Why? Because Moses brought Israel out of Egypt. The Tribe of Dan was in Exile as well and got Moses worship 🛐 to be their protector.
The Serpent with wolf 🐺 head on a pole, was the war flag of both Dacians and Sarmatians and it was inspired from the Old Testament book of Numbers 21.4-9. The serpent on the pole of Moeses.
Moesia comes from Moses. Is the country of Moses people.
Moesel is the river of Moses.
Dan-ube is the river of Dan.
Many rivers in Europe have the name based on Dan derivative in the first place.
Saxons is derived from (I)saac sons. The sons of Isaac.
Europe is therefore Semitic.
România 🇷🇴 was occupied by many other powers over the centuries.
The Ottoman Empire was there for 500 years yet Romanias don't speak Turkish. The Austr-Hungarian Empire was there for 300 years. Yet only the colonized villages in specific regions where Hungarians and Germans emigrated 700 years ago, speak Hungarian and German and are the emigrants. No Românian people ever spoke another language.
The Roman occupation was only 150 years at maximum. It is no way the Dacian peasants were Latinised.
Therefore Latin was not the language that formed Romanian language nor the other Romance languages from Iberic Peninsula, France, Wallonia, Italy. It is most likely that all these languages developed separately from a Semitic language that became Dacian language that got variations according to the region the segmented parts of the Tribe of Dan emigrated to.
It is extraordinary and fascinating at the same time.
Look for the article.
The Serpent's Trail of the lost tribes of Israel.
The tribe of Dan.
Btw. The Gypsies are Semitic too. They are from the lost tribes of Simeon.
Sardinia was also colonized by the Tribe of Dan. Romanian language and Sardinian language are similar. This is another hint.
It sounds like germans trying to speak italian.
Similar to Romansch? In sound to you?
No . Romansch sounded like a Germanic language it was impossible to tell that it was a romance language.@@anthonyoer4778
Trentino nem a comèr (mangiar) the 30 years and the 13 years old whare gardenese
Sounds like a mixture of Italian, German, and Spanish.
The first lady: "Mia Oma" => my mother (mia: Italian, Oma: German)
I also think i got something like "naranja" (oranges in Spanish)
And done is the speakers had the "German R" :-)
Oma in german means grandma..not mother. Mother in german is mutter. And grandma in ladin is ava.
It sounds very French.
I thought Ladin is the same as Latin but with your nose closed 😅
I don't really hear any German or Nordic.More French and Gaelic.It's still very similar to Italian to me.Try listening to some of the group Celtic Woman's music if you need to hear Gaelic.
I definitely hear the German influence but I’m also getting Slavic vibes.
Ladino is actually a dialect of Spanish also called "judeospanish", that is spoken by shefardic jewish communities that descend from the expelled ones from Spain in little communities of Israel and the Balkans. You shoukd try to listen some!
Ladin (from the Dolomite mountains) and Ladino (Judeo-Spanish) are two different languages.
I can only speak English, German, Afrikaans and Zulu and find Romance languages quite difficult!
Interesting language, good explanation. But when I suggested Ladino I meant the Judaeo-Spanish language spoken by the Sephardi. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaeo-Spanish . Please take a look. Thanks in advance!