That type of collet stop obviously works fine on the 5C collets because there a single taper and close down right at the front of the collet. ER's don't work in the same way Chuck. They close on the tool shank or part from both ends. And the ER closing nut has to force the collet further into the chuck to get that closing force as the collet segments are wedged closed by the taper inside the collet holder or chuck, and the same at the front with the nuts inside taper. So yes an ER collet does move inward at least a bit. If they didn't they couldn't tighten as well as they do. Furthermore, ER collets require a tool shank or part length of at least 80% or more extending inside the collets total depth so it can grip at both ends of the part or tool shank. That's what provides the grip and stability on whatever there holding. Without that, concentricity and the full collet grip goes out the window since it's only holding at one end. And if the nut is tightened enough without anything at the rear of the collet to tighten against, collet segment damage or even breakage can sometimes occur. Yes 5C's do grip at only one end, but they only have a closing range of a few thou and not the full .039" or 1 mm each ER 32 can close. And that's why you don't see collet stops used on those ER collet blocks. A stop will work if it's only inside the rear of the ER collet by a very small amount. Visualize how an ER collet closes and you'll understand why they have that 80% or more rule. For anything that looks like a great idea and isn't commercially available, I always start out by asking myself why not. Most times there's logical reasons or I need more information before I can figure out why not.
I'm trying to follow along on your logic. So you're saying that an er stop will only work if it is inside the back of the collet 20% or less. Makes sense but not a deal breaker for the stop idea.
I agree, not a deal-breaker at all. It's important to know the strengths and weaknesses of each collet system, but there's no reason a stop shouldn't work well with ER collets as long as there's still plenty for the collet to grip.
5c collets do not only grip at the end. Two matching tapers, the holder bore and the collet od will move the bore inwards square to the axis. So the bore stays parallel.
@@tates11 Eh, sort of. 5C collets are single-slit, so the back of the bore cannot possibly reduce in diameter as the collet closes and the majority of the flexing will occur near the root of the slits. The bore may stay close to parallel near the nose, but this will worsen the further you get from the nose.
@@martybadboyYes that's exactly what I'm saying. I'd suggest that 20% number may be just about the maximum though. REGO -FIX invented the ER collet design and have a large number of videos about ER collets. For something as simple looking as they are, there's a fair bit more to choosing, maintaining and using them to obtain the best out of how the design. No it's not a deal breaker, but it is something to be aware of. As an example my ER 40's will accept down to 1/8th part or tool shanks. One issue with that is most tool shanks of that diameter won't have the length available to fit within that 20% rule. There a good design and work extremely well, but for unavoidably short work lengths then obviously 5c is superior. Then again ER's were never designed nor intended as a work holding collet. Hobbyist's are about the only one's who do so due to there very slow part changing.
of course the collet pulls into the housing, that's why it has a taper inside the holder. so the collet as it moves in, is drawn tighter as it moves in the taper.
I like it. I watched Matty also and knew there had to be a better way. My problem is that I am using ER40 collets. I actually have a 5C lathe chuck video in the works. I will start there. Thanks for sharing.
Dear Chuck, you are not the first to bore a hole to the od of a thread.....making me smile with you honesty.... wishing you and your wife a speedy recovery from the Covid ...best wishes, Paul
If you think about it, 5C pulls in and ER nut pushes in the collet into compression. So from a stationary perspective, the collet moves towards the spindle under compression but ever so slightly.
Glad to hear you are recovering and commiserations on getting china flu in the first place. Re the tapping size, it is the same principle as metric where you subtract the pitch ftom the diameter, like you drill 8.5mm for an M10x1.5(10-1.5=8.5) just the same with IMP but you use 1 ÷ tpi to give the pitch.
@@chrisstephens6673 I understand. I would prefer to know the pitch in the thread description instead of having to calculate it. I've never needed to convert a pitch into tpi.
@@tates11 tpi is great for the calculations on an imperial set up lathe, where the leadscrew is also measured in TPI, just as pitch is the way metric threads work on metric lathes, with their pitch leadscrews. I guess it is all down to engineers preferring whole or at least recognisable numbers. With tpi you have a nice whole number, like 26tpi, instead of a pitch of 0.0384615385" which is a little unwieldy. Again with metric the rough equivalent of 26tpi you have a pitch of 1mm, a nice whole number. To work with.
Get well Chuck! nice show. you can always use a pin gage and an indicator to show us how much the part moves back as it is tightened :) ?!?! yes, 5c do pull back till the dia is gripped. but the stop inside moves back as well. larger dia part = shorter part, smaller dia part = longer part. I suspect some movement in a non stopped er system and potentially one in a stopped system. the collet does retract in an er but like the drawing in of a C type. using a hard stop always has its challenges based on the dia of the part. you can test that by using over/under pins. typically part tolerances on over all length are a good margin. it is just that each step can add additional error to a finished part.
Hey Chuck, great idea. I wish I could blame my dumb mistakes on Covid! There's a page in the Engineers Black Book with the calculation for depth of thread. I printed it on some label tape and put it on one of wall charts for ready reference.
one of the beauties of a collet like the ER, is that you can hold longer materiel...I've been thinking about a way to have a collet stop that can allow for longer pieces of stock than yours and Matty's solutions can accommodate. Similar to Matty's design, but with the insert being longer and bored out to accommodate stock diameters up to the limit of the ER40 (1-1/8"). Not hugely longer, maybe 6 inches or so...
I just recently made a backstop for my lathe, but I went the route of making a tapered plug to fit the spindle bore and tapping that for about an inch and then back boring the plug the rest of the way. I made a handful of inserts of various lengths that thread in and then lock with a nut. This limits me to lengths of about six inches or less, but that's going to cover most of what I do. If I need longer parts, I'll have to come up with a solution that clamps on the outboard end of the spindle.
The advantage of the stop on a 5C collet is the stop threads into the collet itself. As the collet is closed, the stop and part do not move in relation to each other. This is true whether the 5C collet and stop is in a lathe or some type of fixture like a collet block. This isn’t the case where the stop is part of the collet block like in your ER collet design.
I cought covid two years ago. I felt crappy for four days. Last year I was really sick. It was a cold. I just received my first er collets. The holder is two weeks late and still not here. I can't try them out yet. Take care Chuck
Covid is no fun for sure - Hope your wife recovers as quickly. Great idea Chuck on modifying the collet blocks (you even get an extra opportunity to rework one 😉). I would have guessed that the blocks were hardened, but maybe not. I’m adding this to my to-do list. 👍😎👍
I think a lot of people have missed the idea that in manufacturing a 5C collet is compressed and then bored to its nominal size.At that size it will be parallel.
Boring too wide.... or boring through when making a blind hole..... "Brain slip' we say here, home brew translation. Have to check my gear for that improveme t.
Had the jab 5 times, never had covid, no adverse affects from jab first 4 times, But the last one I had reactions that mimic covid to a T, Still test negative for covid though and still suffering a month later.🤷♂
![ทุกครั้งที่หลับตา (Lucid Dream) - AYLA's [ Official MV ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/4i1OBAQyv58/mqdefault.jpg)
That type of collet stop obviously works fine on the 5C collets because there a single taper and close down right at the front of the collet. ER's don't work in the same way Chuck. They close on the tool shank or part from both ends. And the ER closing nut has to force the collet further into the chuck to get that closing force as the collet segments are wedged closed by the taper inside the collet holder or chuck, and the same at the front with the nuts inside taper. So yes an ER collet does move inward at least a bit. If they didn't they couldn't tighten as well as they do. Furthermore, ER collets require a tool shank or part length of at least 80% or more extending inside the collets total depth so it can grip at both ends of the part or tool shank.
That's what provides the grip and stability on whatever there holding. Without that, concentricity and the full collet grip goes out the window since it's only holding at one end. And if the nut is tightened enough without anything at the rear of the collet to tighten against, collet segment damage or even breakage can sometimes occur. Yes 5C's do grip at only one end, but they only have a closing range of a few thou and not the full .039" or 1 mm each ER 32 can close. And that's why you don't see collet stops used on those ER collet blocks. A stop will work if it's only inside the rear of the ER collet by a very small amount. Visualize how an ER collet closes and you'll understand why they have that 80% or more rule. For anything that looks like a great idea and isn't commercially available, I always start out by asking myself why not. Most times there's logical reasons or I need more information before I can figure out why not.
I'm trying to follow along on your logic. So you're saying that an er stop will only work if it is inside the back of the collet 20% or less. Makes sense but not a deal breaker for the stop idea.
I agree, not a deal-breaker at all. It's important to know the strengths and weaknesses of each collet system, but there's no reason a stop shouldn't work well with ER collets as long as there's still plenty for the collet to grip.
5c collets do not only grip at the end. Two matching tapers, the holder bore and the collet od will move the bore inwards square to the axis. So the bore stays parallel.
@@tates11 Eh, sort of. 5C collets are single-slit, so the back of the bore cannot possibly reduce in diameter as the collet closes and the majority of the flexing will occur near the root of the slits. The bore may stay close to parallel near the nose, but this will worsen the further you get from the nose.
@@martybadboyYes that's exactly what I'm saying. I'd suggest that 20% number may be just about the maximum though. REGO -FIX invented the ER collet design and have a large number of videos about ER collets. For something as simple looking as they are, there's a fair bit more to choosing, maintaining and using them to obtain the best out of how the design. No it's not a deal breaker, but it is something to be aware of.
As an example my ER 40's will accept down to 1/8th part or tool shanks. One issue with that is most tool shanks of that diameter won't have the length available to fit within that 20% rule. There a good design and work extremely well, but for unavoidably short work lengths then obviously 5c is superior. Then again ER's were never designed nor intended as a work holding collet. Hobbyist's are about the only one's who do so due to there very slow part changing.
of course the collet pulls into the housing, that's why it has a taper inside the holder. so the collet as it moves in, is drawn tighter as it moves in the taper.
thanks for viewing, new video on testing tomorrow
Great idea about the 5c stops for the er collets.
I find myself constantly looking at old videos from Tom Lipton, Joe Pie, and so many others.
thanks for viewing and there are great teachers of the trade and my friends....new video coming on testing
I like it. I watched Matty also and knew there had to be a better way. My problem is that I am using ER40 collets. I actually have a 5C lathe chuck video in the works. I will start there. Thanks for sharing.
check my next video testing, I show fixing my bozo, you could do something similar with the larger 40s, thanks for viewing
Nice approach, Chuck. Enjoyed.
Dear Chuck, you are not the first to bore a hole to the
od of a thread.....making me smile with you honesty....
wishing you and your wife a speedy recovery from the
Covid ...best wishes, Paul
If you think about it, 5C pulls in and ER nut pushes in the collet into compression. So from a stationary perspective, the collet moves towards the spindle under compression but ever so slightly.
thanks for viewing, testing video tomorrow
Slick trick, Chuck. Thanks for sharing.
As usual you win in the end. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
Since the ER32 collet is held by the nut, it has to be pulled back into the block when tightening it.
This is correct.
Yep
follow up video...testing, thanks for viewing
Get well!
Gday Chuck, that Covid is bloody nasty but it’s good to see you back at it again, top job on the stop, cheers
thanks Matty
thanks for the info Chuck, cheers from Florida,Paul
5C Collet Work Stop
Mr Pragmatic Lee made one pretty well the same seven Years ago.
Good info, thank you Chuck.
thanks for viewing
Glad to hear you are recovering and commiserations on getting china flu in the first place.
Re the tapping size, it is the same principle as metric where you subtract the pitch ftom the diameter, like you drill 8.5mm for an M10x1.5(10-1.5=8.5) just the same with IMP but you use 1 ÷ tpi to give the pitch.
Tpi is of no use compared to knowing the pitch.
@@tates11 the tpi as a fraction of an inch is the pitch!
thank you Chris for your comments and viewing...testing video tomorrow...
@@chrisstephens6673 I understand. I would prefer to know the pitch in the thread description instead of having to calculate it. I've never needed to convert a pitch into tpi.
@@tates11 tpi is great for the calculations on an imperial set up lathe, where the leadscrew is also measured in TPI, just as pitch is the way metric threads work on metric lathes, with their pitch leadscrews. I guess it is all down to engineers preferring whole or at least recognisable numbers. With tpi you have a nice whole number, like 26tpi, instead of a pitch of 0.0384615385" which is a little unwieldy. Again with metric the rough equivalent of 26tpi you have a pitch of 1mm, a nice whole number. To work with.
good job chuck
Get well Chuck! nice show. you can always use a pin gage and an indicator to show us how much the part moves back as it is tightened :) ?!?! yes, 5c do pull back till the dia is gripped. but the stop inside moves back as well. larger dia part = shorter part, smaller dia part = longer part. I suspect some movement in a non stopped er system and potentially one in a stopped system. the collet does retract in an er but like the drawing in of a C type. using a hard stop always has its challenges based on the dia of the part. you can test that by using over/under pins. typically part tolerances on over all length are a good margin. it is just that each step can add additional error to a finished part.
thanks Phil, hope you watch tomorrow's video...lol
Hey Chuck, great idea. I wish I could blame my dumb mistakes on Covid! There's a page in the Engineers Black Book with the calculation for depth of thread. I printed it on some label tape and put it on one of wall charts for ready reference.
one of the beauties of a collet like the ER, is that you can hold longer materiel...I've been thinking about a way to have a collet stop that can allow for longer pieces of stock than yours and Matty's solutions can accommodate. Similar to Matty's design, but with the insert being longer and bored out to accommodate stock diameters up to the limit of the ER40 (1-1/8").
Not hugely longer, maybe 6 inches or so...
I just recently made a backstop for my lathe, but I went the route of making a tapered plug to fit the spindle bore and tapping that for about an inch and then back boring the plug the rest of the way. I made a handful of inserts of various lengths that thread in and then lock with a nut. This limits me to lengths of about six inches or less, but that's going to cover most of what I do. If I need longer parts, I'll have to come up with a solution that clamps on the outboard end of the spindle.
assuming you are talking about using the comment in the lathe, check my video "spindle depth stop" and "tool find"
Actually, the solution I was describing could be used in a lathe (if your spindle bore is large enough) or a mill (horizontally).
The advantage of the stop on a 5C collet is the stop threads into the collet itself. As the collet is closed, the stop and part do not move in relation to each other. This is true whether the 5C collet and stop is in a lathe or some type of fixture like a collet block. This isn’t the case where the stop is part of the collet block like in your ER collet design.
thanks for viewing, watch my testing video tomorrow
I cought covid two years ago. I felt crappy for four days. Last year I was really sick. It was a cold. I just received my first er collets. The holder is two weeks late and still not here. I can't try them out yet. Take care Chuck
thanks for viewing....hope ur holder comes soon...
Good to see ya chuck
Thanks for sharing
Good to see you are on the mend 👍👍Nice idea adapting the 5C stop for the ER32
ATB....
The good thing is owning a machine shop , all mistakes are fixable. Don't beat your self up we all make them same mistakes.
thanks for viewing and your supportive comments
Covid is no fun for sure - Hope your wife recovers as quickly. Great idea Chuck on modifying the collet blocks (you even get an extra opportunity to rework one 😉). I would have guessed that the blocks were hardened, but maybe not. I’m adding this to my to-do list. 👍😎👍
thanks for viewing and your supportive comments
Thanks for sharing, even if the math is off a bit (blame it on COVID). The pitch for 24 tpi is not 1/16”, that would be correct for 16 tpi.
I think a lot of people have missed the idea that in manufacturing a 5C collet is compressed and then bored to its nominal size.At that size it will be parallel.
The quick and dirty is to use the calipers to measure across the valleys of the male threads
by the way, nice jacket.....wonder where you
might have scored that, you must have been
hanging out at Lawrence Livermore Labs or something...
I helped Tom move and he surprised me with the jacket, thanks for viewing, check the next video
You aren’t the first guy to over size the bore when threading. Ask me how I know. Glad you are on the mend.
Glad you are feeling better, and I hope your wife feels better soon too! Bozo visits us all.
thanks for viewing.....
Make a collet tube to suit the oversize hole.
tomorrows video shows the repair, thanks for viewing
He wrote it because it does move just not as much as the 5c
I got Covid last year and my throat felt like fire every time I swallowed for about 3 days. Not no fun, anyhow.
Movement of the Collet😅 ?? Perhaps! With the STOP, the Collet may move,😁 but the workpiece will not. At least, not my ER Collet stop.😊😊😊
truth!!! video tomorrow on this subject, thanks for viewing
This geriatric vaguely remembers the in and out, inandout that you mentioned...but alas and alack, such things are a figment of the past...
too funny...thanks for viewing
Boring too wide.... or boring through when making a blind hole..... "Brain slip' we say here, home brew translation. Have to check my gear for that improveme t.
thanks for viewing, check tomorrow testing video along with showing the repair fo the oversized bore
@@outsidescrewball I will!
Got the jab 2 times, still got covid 2 times .
Had the jab 5 times, never had covid, no adverse affects from jab first 4 times, But the last one I had reactions that mimic covid to a T, Still test negative for covid though and still suffering a month later.🤷♂
Good one! Do take care of your health and the wifes'. Thanks!