I keep a fish room in my basement. A few years ago during the coldest week of winter, our furnace died and then there was a blackout in my neighborhood that lasted 3 days. Between all the filters going out and the cold, all of my fish died but 1. I named him Aenar and refer to the incident as the Doom.
@@DavidLightbringer Yeah, it sucked, but it's been a few years now. Aenar is still going strong, so there's that and the tanks have all been slowly restocked since that time. Also put a generator in.
@@hardybryan Damn, give it a few more years and you'll have a selfproclaimed fish sitting ontop of your Iron sink claiming to be king over the Showerbeds and the Toilet wastelands, riding your cat into battle conquering his foes!
@@wallybonejengles5595 I mean... it would explain the fact that the guards are watching the money AND EACH OTHER. Seems like the Mafias of the world should take note.
So Aenor Targaryen was basically Littlefinger of Valyria? A lesser lord looked down upon by the elite, who creates chaos and destruction for him to use as an opportunity to build wealth and power..
@Sean Francis Waters Lancaster the Targaryens was not the weakest of the Dragonlord families they were not one of the most powerful but they were not the weakest either and their were 40 Dragonlord families that ruled Valyria not 43.
Given Littlefinger's grandfather (or great-grandfather, dont remember entirely but pretty sure it was the grandfather) was from Braavos, founded by valyrian slaves, and how in our world there were quite a few mixed-race slave children, they could even share some sort of (very) distant ancestry. Completely irrelevant either way, given most people in Essos, at least, if not Westeros, are probably descended from Valyrians, but the theory popped into my head the second I read "Littlefinger of Valyria"
I wonder if Daenys's vision actually gave Aenar the idea to create the Doom, the ultimate self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm very interested in the idea that Marwyn found 3 pages of Daenys's book Signs and Portents.
Self fulfilling prophecy seems to be George’s thing, the prophecy in itself isn’t really true but the actions it inspires are real and seem to fulfill he prophecy in a way.
Maybe those pages are the ones in the Behind the scenes of HotD... The ones were it's revealed that Daenys was the First rider of Balerion and that the dream of the Doom came to her the very same night she tamed him. I, now, am convinced by this theory of LmL but I would love an actualization of this subject by him specially considering that in those pages it's also revealed that It was Daenys' mom Elaena Targaryen the one who was ambitious and resentful towards the other valyrian families and It was towards her that Daenys ran in terror during the night after dreaming the Doom.... Interesting stuff...
While this theory is plausible, there are still several major holes in it. 1. If most of Targaryen wealth came from trade between Essos and Westeros and in particular the trade of Valyrian steel, why would they destroy Valyria and consequently plunge Essos into civil war? 2. Destroying Valyria did not destroy all of the dragons. As far as I recall, several dragon lords remained in the Valyrian colonies after the Doom, and it took another century of civil war to wipe them out. It was pretty obvious that the Targaryens would not gain a dragon monopoly from the Doom. 3. Other than petty revenge, there seemed to be no real reason for the Targaryens to destroy Valyria. If the Targaryens were clever enough to pull off the Doom, then they would have been clever enough to use it to their advantage. The invasion of Westeros happened well after the Doom, and considering that Valyria had not shown any particular interest in Westeros for thousands of years beyond the odd trading post, it seems unlikely that the Freehold would have objected to the Targaryens conquering it. Personally, I think this theory makes more sense, if the Targaryens hired the Faceless Men to take out some old rivals after being forced into exile (the prophetic dream might have been true, or just an attempt to save face) and the Faceless Men used that wealth to fund the Doom. The Faceless Men always talk about people as tools, so it seems plausible that they saw the Targaryens as tools, or as a means to achieve their ends. The Targaryens never intended to cause the Doom, they just wanted revenge.
Would the top dogs let a small player conquer a continent and keep it to themselves? Really unlikely, that would shift the power dynamic quite a bit. But your other ideas are good, Targaryens may not have been the sly puppet musters but folks who were smart enough to see the opportunity and dumb enough not to see all the consequences. Petty revenge is also quite a believable motive for a dragon lord reduced to living on a rock in the middle of nowhere.
@@michaelkulakov9716 Uncontrollable underlings getting too violent is also a common ASOIAF trope. Everyone from the Goldcloaks to the Sand Snakes gleefully leap into bludgeoning and murder when left unattended.
But if they believed that the Doom would wipe out the whole of Valyria, why would they then bother to waste a ton of gold to hire the Faceless Men to do what they had already expected to be achieved by the cataclysm of the Doom? :)
It would create their best chance at creating a monopoly. It's one of the reasons they practice incest amongst dragon-riders, to monopolize the dragon power. Creating scarcity of Valyrian steel would drive up the prices. It honestly isn't the best business plan, but villains are stupid, and if the Targaryens caused the Doom, then they could very well qualify as villains, especially if it was like a Mafia hit to eliminate rivals instead of ending tyranny, leaving them the Valyrian Godfathers.
I wonder, do you think Aenar, knowing his daughter has reliable prophetic dreams, could have used a glass candle to perhaps plant the dream of The Doom in Daenys' mind with the knowledge that she would immediately warn the family, and then they could "flee" to Dragonstone? No one would question where her dream came from, and Aenar would have the excuse to get him and his family safely away.
Shannon0893 check out my comment, I was thinking along the same lines. We know dreams can be influenced. I was thinking the great other or one of his minions but I like your idea too
I think it more likely that the opposite happened : Daenys' dream inspired Aenar's plan. If the destruction of Valyria was already fortold, it would have been smart of Aenar to get out of the way, and to make sure that it happened in a way that benefited him and his family.
Why are people sleeping on your awesome content? As much as I love how in-depth Order of the Green Hand is, your scripts are way tighter. Also, you are so diligent about referencing other creators. Thanks for single-handedly reigniting my love for ASOIAF.
This immediately makes me want to relate "burn them all" to this. The Mad King maybe himself had some kind of flash back where he saw that his own ancestor Targs' claim to the Westeros throne was rooted in some kind of morally questionable blood magic pact that was connected to the destruction of an entire civilization? I'm always trying to figure out what exactly it must have been for The Mad King to see that was so earth shattering it made him go mad.
Loving your Monty Python banter about no one expecting the faceless men and their one, two, no make that three, well alright four weapons! Humorous and interesting way to make your point.
Makes me wonder how the FM view Dany: on one hand, she is actively ending slavery in the east, but on the other she has brought dragons back to planetos. Goes for Bravos as a whole as well. Both Bravos and the FM were founded by anti-dragon slaves. I'd like to think theyre more anti-slavery than anti-dragon, but who knows
Considering that there's one of them in the Citadel searching for a key to get a misterious book and hanging out with the writer of The Book of Lost Books who's now heading to Meereen to "guide" Daenerys they might be ok with her..... It all actually depends on what's the deal with Marwyn, LmL seems to think he wants to help Dany but he might well be serving to the Church of Starry Wisdom and considering that also the FM helped Euron to get rid of Baelon.... it's all actually very confuse. Maybe Euron Is a necessary evil to bring back the Long Night and reset everything but who knows Marwyn IMO Is shady af.
So, I couldn't help relate the fiery Doom to your more recent videos about "fire wights" and "fire others." First, I noted that there is a section of the Valyrian Freehold called "The Lands of Long Summer," a phrase that mirrors "The Long Night" which is obviously associated with cold and "Winter." But there is also the odd case of Aerea Targaryen who, atop Balerion the last living creature to have witnessed pre-Doom Valyria, apparently went to the ruins of Valyria and upon returning died in a really interesting way. She basically burned from the inside, and her body was infested with "unspeakable things...creatures of heat and fire" who only "died" when exposed to "cold and ice." This apparently inspired King Jaehaerys to forbid any Westerosi from going to Valyria under penalty of death. There's something wacky going on with Valyrian magic and whatever caused the Doom seems almost like a reverse "Long Night."
Excellent work on one of the least discussed but most important theories/conspiracies in this story. Great animation, narration and humor. Well worth watching multiple times
Viserys told us what happened in Valyria and he didn't noticed 😂😂😂 when he is talking to Rhaenyra, 1st episode.. And the same sentence justified Vhagar's actions towards Aemond. " The idea that we control dragons is an illusion. They're a power, man should've never trifled with. One that brought Valyria it's doom, if we don't mind our own histories , it will do the same to us" Dragons turned on themselves and burned the entire city to the ground.. now he know what causes the doom.
He rescued his family from the doom and created wealth for his family. But his offspring fought against family for power. That is pretty dumb and short sighted. Since so many Targeyarians and Dragons died. They weakened themselves.
On a serious note, I love listening to how this was all put together. It's like watching the pieces of a massive puzzle come together and seeing how they were arranged to fit. I hadn't even thought about the monetary aspect of why Aenar would come to Dragonstone, but it makes sense. He saw a chance not just to get out, but still live in exceeding luxury and comfort. And since the Targaryens weren't a particularly powerful house at the time, them leaving might have been mocked, but also wouldn't likely raise suspicion because it could look like them deciding they couldn't compete anymore with the houses so they're going somewhere they can compete easier (and probably played into other Valyrians' vanity). Plus since they weren't particularly powerful Aenar didn't have to worry about other dragon lords actually taking him that seriously and following him and his allies. On a non-serious note, I couldn't help imagining Aenar as Scrooge McDuck when you mentioned him swimming in gold. And that man was definitely a fan of horror, cause the second his 12 year old started talking about supernatural terror about to be unleashed, he knew to pack up and sell the house. He decided to not be the guy in whatever the Valyrian equivalent of a horror movie was. Also the Monty Python reference was worth all the gold of the Lannisters.
I have been binging your videos and truly enjoy the depth you bring into Asoiaf, and the voice and humor too. I'll need to get the rest of Martin's books now.
The quote says Aenor brought along his fam and stuff but also his slaves. Yet slavery did not catch on in Westeros. I think you and Ba'al touched on this in the live stream, but do you think freeing slaves or stopping slavery was part of his deal with the FM? That would fit with Dany being the breaker of chains and her ultimate fate.
as Preston Jacobs often argues, Feudalism and serfdom really is another form of slavery (at least in GRRMartin's perspective, as he draws some parallels between serfs and slaves)
@@DavidLightbringer you don't know lucifer. Meet his son th-cam.com/video/iMp7BHahY8c/w-d-xo.html watch him when you are bored. He's a dark Sith... And his forehead is blessed with the blood and guts of little baby jesus.
@ sorry I dont think black people can be Nazis... Kinda a conflict of interest ... But you have ZI in your last name so you can be a Nazi for me. Be cute and wear daddys musky thong.
@@DavidLightbringer We get a lot of San Franciscans moving to Asheville, NC these days. I read quite a few Californians writing for local papers call it the Little San Francisco of the Mountains, but I think it's mostly a micro brewery thing, along with connections between various types of art that originates from both places.
@@Nga_Babaye that's interesting, because Asheville is on my list of places to retire to (they are also known for having an active lifestyle). I have a few years to go, but it can't hurt to plan! I need to find someplace where geeks/nerds are in reasonable numbers :-)
@Dr. M. H. I have no idea why property skyrocketed over there in 1990s other than Mission Hospital-St. Joseph Merger and everyone wanted to come in and work at it, and the brewery shit. I just believe in living outside and playing inside. Biltmore only upgraded because of Mission's growth.
Hey LML just wanted to say Thanks and show some appreciation for the great quality of videos! You and Quinn’s Ideas of made me obsessed with ASOIAF can’t thank you enough
Ah, at last a proper stretch of time (90 minutes , yes I am very obsessive and thorough in my viewings) to relish this completely fabulous video. Thank you many times, so looking forward to Part 2!
Maybe Valyria was going through a time period where they didn’t take the magic seriously and it became a domino effect. The Targaryen’s could have warned them and another house could have been conspiring?
Aenar.. This entire time I've been thinking he's a super unimportant character. What if Dany is some kind of sacrifice for some kind of magic fire/ice pact her ancient grandfather made for his own benefit?? She definitely has this theme of fulfilling things that people who ruled before her started..
Interesting theory. But I'm confused as to exactly how Aenar Targaryan went about hiring the Faceless Men. It's not like this kind of contract and transfer of wealth could be done remotely. And a 3rd party transaction seems pretty dubious too. Surely, this has to be a face to Face(less) negotiation. But before the Doom, Braavos was known as the "Hidden City". It's location not widely known, and especially hidden from the Dragonlords of Valyria. So how could AT even learn about Braavos in the first place? He seems to be precisely THE last person in the world the Braavosi would entrust with any information regarding their city. Plus, before Braavos really came out to the rest of the world in the centuries following the Doom, would anyone in the wider world even have heard of the Faceless Men? And even if they had, surely they wouldn't have had anything like their current reputation. So as a matter of grounded practicality, how exactly could AT have possibly hired the Faceless Men?
Not only would TFM have a personal investment in the job (being descendants of escaped slaves of the Freehold), but if AT met the conditions of acquiring their services (third of his wealth) they’d have absolutely done it. Getting in contact with TFM wouldn’t have been difficult considering proximity between Braavos and Dragonstone. Even if dragons struggle to locate Braavos due to the fog, intermediaries could’ve easily been used to arrange a meeting.
What a fun listen! This reminded me of how much I enjoyed reading and listening to ASOIAF theories and all the symbolism analysis. I’m going to go listen to the longer discussion now to get more of this. And I look forward to your Part II.
Hmm, well it would seem to me that your theory ALSO gives a motivation for even the initial move of the Targaryens to Dragonstone, and it wasn't just $$$. If he was able to orchestrate this masterpeice of a plan, it stands to reason that all of it would be connected and the plan was either already in place or in the works before leaving Valyria, with the move being the first step. Just think of simple things such as communication lines, gold shipments, planning, etc (there could be 1000 items on this list). Being on Dragonstone would help the logistics of the entire scheme. Not to mention the increased security inherent in being so far removed from Valyria, full of people with zero motivation or reason to investigate, or hell even visit, some minor Lord on some useless rock thousands of miles away from anything important. I think this is a solid take.
Why you still don't have more the 30k subscribers beggars belief. You deliver a constant stream of quality material. And the live streams are also always top notch.
How? Valyria is a smoking, demon-infested hellscape. You literally cannot traverse it. No one returns from there. If you’re referring to the Valyria we got in the show, that was not book accurate at all.
The last time someone travelled to Valyria, they wound up infested with Firewyrms and died painfully and there was something big enough to hurt Balerion, who was MUCH larger and dangerous than any of Dany's dragons.
Wow been watching for close to two years and just realized I wasn't subscribed. Always in my suggestions. Subbed just now tho my man. Keep up the content. Ty
Not only the amount of gold for brightroar was enough for an army. We also have to understand through basic economics that the gold people use to trade in most of westeros would've been mined in the Rock which through trade between families and merchants over the course of years and decades would've trickled down to the gold most people in westeros would use. So in a way most of the trade aenar did in westeros was paid for gold mined from the Rock which i would assume would be much larger than the amount of gold received for brightroar
Oh okay that’s another angle on that prophecy no one has mentioned. But yes you’re right, almost all the golden conns Westeros has ever had came from Casterly mines. Very good
Bruh how do you not have more subs this shit is well thought out, didnt think I could get back into the series after the TV show ending but here we goooo
That Monty Python/Faceless Man/Spanish Inquisition bit was absolutely hilarious. ...And if we knew each other better I'd throw "fucking" in there somewhere.Thank you so much for the laugh LmL!
I think part of what you're saying makes sense. I would of thought if he wanted to completely corner the Valyrian Sword market, you'd learn to make them. I think there's a possibility that the Maesters were the ones who sold Bright Roar to the Lannister's
Thanks for this rare, nice, short, to-the-point presentation!!! The Starks' Ice is 400 yrs old [barely pre-doom]; the Tarlys' Heartsbane is 100 yrs older [clearly pre-doom]. Is this history important? More significant? According to Old Nan (A+ credibility), The Last Hero's sword froze and broke before he found the Children of the Forest, who apparently had no metal weapons. So how did he suddenly acquire the powerful sword that forced the Others to retreat? Was it Ice? Dawn? I am firmly convinced that the AA legend/prophesy happened in Essos and that The Last Hero saved Westeros from The Long Night. I also like the idea that Sam's home is Horn Hill, as in the horn that he has resisted selling and carried with him ever since Ed? Ghost? discovered it.
because its "history" i imagine he told her they should move to invrease wealth, she told him of her prophecy which aligned with his actions, he made the move, told the lords it was for a dream, and got rich, idk if im still convinved he caused the doom,
With 14 vulcanos you have any number of sleeping vulcanos at the same time. If you have 5 naturally occurring sleepy ones all you need is to control the others. And active could mean just small amounts of steam and stone (watched way too many vulcanology documentaries). Magic might be just as powerful as luck and planning, at the same time?
Definitely curious to continue this discussion to convince me of this. I do have a few doubts but more so I just think a few more entities were likely involved. Braavos to me can not be ignored, FM were headquartered in Braavos by this time , Braavos were escaped slaves from the Freehold who surely would at some point want revenge , let alone seeing the level of slavery being enacted by the Valyrians. Ntm Braavos had major geo-political motivations here , Braavos were emerging on the world stage in a big way , having accumulated substantial wealth (more than enough to contribute towards paying the FM) and did so literally in the fog away from the Valyrians until fairly recently leading up to The Doom. Braavos also had further global power / influence aspirations and had to be wary that they could only expand so much with Valyria / their dragons around let alone at their peak and that the Valyrians would likely at some point swoop in for Braavos' riches , possibly destroy the city and surely enslave many in the process. For me Braavos can not be left out of the equation. And the Citadel as well , we know they are wary of magical entities like dragons (especially in more recent generations leading up to and through the current ASoIaF) , later on likely at least part instigated The Dance (which resulted in the deaths of many dragons) and from first hand admission very likely played a part in the decline and eventual extinction of the remaining dragons after The Dance. Plus the Citadel could have had outside support an encouragement within Westeros from factions who like the Citadel worried the Freehold would eventually shift their gaze and expansion westward. Valyria were an evil empire who created a lot of enemies along the way with conquest, destruction , genocide , mass slavery , torture , twisted experimentation etc. But in particular Braavos to me seems to be a massive candidate here for involvement and even the Citadel as well. The Targs did have some motivations as well , they were seemingly one of the lowest of the 40 Dragon-lord Houses in Valyria so why not leave to change their fortunes , saw a great opportunity for wealth and power advancement between their dragons and the Velaryon's ships controlling their portion of the Narrow Sea and going from a lowly House in Valyria to the only House in Westeros with dragons must have been appealing ; let alone post The Doom being the only House in the world with dragons remaining. Where I have my doubts is that it seemed the Targs had a good thing going at that time , gaining power and influence in Westeros , controlling sea trade acquiring great wealth in the process and seemingly were not under threat from Valyria and I am not sure I believe in any sort of moral enlightenment or superiority with the Targs playing a major role in their motivations for numerous reasons. I am open to continuing the discussion , with more evidence and support to sway my thinking, not that I am totally against it any way but atm I still feel it was a wider conspiracy / operation beyond only the Targs & the FM and I have a few slight concerns with the Targs feeling motivated and emboldened enough to act how & when they did or a much of moral impetus with the Targs. Though I look forward to getting deeper and deeper in this discussion and weigh everything out.
great points Alex. I think that I generally see the FM, the Ion Bank, and the political powers of Braavos as simpatico; that's why I'm assuming the general motivations of the escaped slaves of Braavos apply to the FM. So we are on the same page there. It's totally possible (as I mentioned in the video) that the FM / Braavos in general had enough motivation to cause the Doom by themselves. But if that was all there was to it, why the passage about the prophecy of casterly Gold causing the Doom? Brightroar in particular is tied to Valyria in so many ways as well. I also agree the maesters are a logical suspect, but don't see any textual clues about their being involved with Brightroar, Casterly Gold, or the Doom. As for Aenar's motives, I will make my full argument in Part 2, but essentially I think there's only 2 ways Aenar willingly participates in the genocide of his entire nation: he's either a complete sociopath the likes of which we've rarely ever seen on earth, or, he saw that Valyria was on track for another 5,000 years of slavery and genocide unless someone with inside knowledge brought them down,. I think it's actually more likely and logical that he was horrified by Valyria (sooner or later some Valyrians WOULD dissent, just as happens everywhere in the real world) than he was a genocidal maniac... because he didn't try to conquer or enslave anyone after he was "the only one left with dragons."
@@DavidLightbringer yeah I mostly agree with your claims / theory tbh , and I am not saying the Targs were not involved , I just happen to think a few factions came together beyond just the Targs and FM. I was not aware you were lumping those Braavosi factions together in this situation but yes the Iron Bank , top of Braavosi power structure and the FM did have a seemingly joint interest against the Valyrians. The FM to me just seem a separate entity to the Braavosi hierarchy being that the FM have their own agenda and M.O. that sometimes intersects with Braavos. The FM it seems of course would be willing to do anything for the right price and being formed under Valyrian slavery in the mines was definitely an added bonus to get one over on the Freehold but I was missing the fact that the Iron Bank and Braavosi power / political structure factored in your T + FM = D . But if they are factored all in together all those Braavosi entities then I am even closer to being fully on board. And I do agree with you GRRM is not going to put "throw away" concepts with Lannister gold linked to The Doom , Brightroar coming into House Lannister just before The Doom. As I am saying I just thought it seemed more a joint venture beyond only the Targs and the FM. The problem I have with Targ morality is a few fold and I just don't think its totally clear. For one , only a generation or so later they not so benevolently put Westeros to the sword or more like to the dragon , conquering the continent with not any sort of claim , giving the lords of the realm the choice of bending the knee or death , of which resulted in a lot of bloodshed and atrocity including Harrenhal , Field of Fire etc. Also , the Targs did have , use and brought over slaves , so I am not so sure they were purely against the practice but they were politically very astute and abandoning the practice to gain favor and acceptance in Westeros could have factored in. Just like adopting a sigil , joining The Faith , occasionally marrying into the Houses of the realm etc. If they continued slavery they would have further emboldened resistance before , during and after the Conquest and limited their political and power opportunities on the continent imo. So the fact they had slaves not that long before they made the trip over to Dragonstone and had political aspirations in Westeros , well done they abandoned slavery but I am not sure it was purely a morality move. Ntm , they were at or near the bottom of the Dragonlord hierarchy in Valyria so there was more upward mobility in Westeros with financial opportunity they seized with the Velaryon's with sea trade and power wise being the only House with Dragons in the immediate area. That being said perhaps not the Targs overall but Aenar himself could have been a woke enlightened guy with wanting to stop Valyrian oppression and atrocity , I just am not sure the behavior of Aegon and subsequent Targs meant that same level of morality continued to near the same degree after Aenar. But it is possible the Targs or as I said more likely just Aenar himself grew horrified with the Freehold overall because over the 5 millennia of their existence they certainly grew into a proper evil empire with destruction , genocide , insane levels of mass slavery , torture , all sorts of twisted experimentation etc. And perhaps the generations after Aenar did not have the exact views he had and when Aegon I saw a power vacuum with no other dragons on Planetos and weak ability to resist them on Westeros somewhat corrupted the once held morality. And of course with the upward mobility and prosperity (financially especially) opportunity for the Targs from leaving Valyria for Westeros has to be factored in also. But with Aenar himself I am definitely open to him being rather woke for his time. And if the Braavosi top brass and the Iron Bank are in together with the FM in your formula then i am very close to being fully on board anyway. With The Citadel though I agree we do not have direct textual evidence with The Doom but I think its not purely coincidental the stories from the main series and companions novels / novellas we have gotten with the maesters likely part instigating the Dance which killed a lot of dragons , and likely poisoned or some form of intervention to wipe out the dragons / line of dragons remaining after the Dance , that its not a massive stretch to think they would have likely tried to take part and contribute towards taking out the biggest , largest most threatening Dragon Empire on Planetos just a couple centuries before the known actions against dragons we know they likely took. Why even throw those asides in there and attribute such actions to the Citadel / maesters for instance , could be to hint they played a part in The Doom. Ntm , the Citadel and Westerosi powers in general had to be wary the Freehold would eventually have western aspirations at some point. And it is fairly clear that most any magical entities like dragons in particular are not in the majority of the Citadel's worldview so I do think its fairly plausible they could have played some part in The Doom. Braavos & the Iron Bank I am nearly certain of their involvement , Citadel I have my suspicions as well and the Targs are def in for a shout they certainly benefited massively from The Doom I am just torn on their exact motivations. Was it purely a power move or was their a morality view at play which with Aenar in particular I can get behind him having a moral impetus. I am just not sure if that collective morality genuinely permeated much beyond Aenar to subsequent Targs , especially with the Conquest not that long after which of course brings in some moral questions along with a lot other questionable immoral behavior from the Targs in the immediate generations after as well.
@@DavidLightbringer I do find the theory of Aenar paying the FM in order to blown up Valyria fascinating. But considering how hated the Valyrians were a lot of people probably wanted their empire to disappear . Perhaps Aenar found out the FM were planning to blow up Valyria by killing their mages.Or the FM contacted him first. The gold he received out of selling valyrian steel coud have been used to convince the FM to spare him and his family. He also could have provided the FM much needed information how to infiltrate Valyria and who exactly to kill. It would explain why the FM never bothered the Targaryens after the Doom. They owed them a lot.
A thought which is only just occurred to me, is how did littlefinger know how much it cost to hire a faceless man to assassinate a merchant? Who was he looking to assassinate?
Great video. If you watch enough of Randall Carlson's videos on symbolism and the understand the principle of the language of the birds, you can find alot of stuff in these incredible books that I think GRRM is using as hints of stuff that happened here in our ancient history. Magic and dragons representing some form of technology, ancient advanced civilizations and transfers of technology leaving behind only traces after some cataclysm destroys them. Passing down of sacred information through 100s of generations. It's really incredible how well planned out and brilliantly written this story is.
This was excellent!.. I'd love so bad, to hear what G.R.R.Martin thinks to all this!? lol.. Is it spot on, close at least etc??.. Great effort my guy, you made this video as riveting as an ep of GoT (In it's prime!).. Quite the accomplishment!!.. 😎👌👍
21:45 Brightroar got Valyria kersploded, and was then lost in Valyria. Karma swings both ways. 25:50 Wasn't there some other Dragonlord lunatic who took over Volantis and the Free Cities for a while? - Point is; the Targaryens weren't the last people who had dragons, but they were the last _family_ with the _infrastructure_ to _raise_ *new* dragons. 27:15 That's also an End of Evangelion reference, I think. Apocalypse-Rei as Nissa Nissa.q
Spoilers do u think fthe Targs did it with the gold from Lannister’s buying bright roar they said you could buy an army(or the faceless Men for the price the Lannister’s paid
Rachael , yes LmL has said that in recent streams that the Targs could have sold the Lannisters Brightroar for the funding of the operation (with Lannister gold from the sword purchase) , which certainly is a possibility. But I am sure LmL will clarify further in this vid which I believe premieres tomorrow.
@@alexb3604 you are both correct! And Rachael the stream Alex is talking about is this livestream with Ba'al the Bard where we workshopped the ideas that went into this vid and the Part 2 I will make soon: th-cam.com/video/bNZXahUJ1Bg/w-d-xo.html
@@DavidLightbringer didn't you mention in this very video that house Stark got its sword just before the doom of valeria? My first thought was that maybe Aenor got his fortune from selling swords all over westeros. ... or maybe the point is that he just charged more for the lannisters so they were the bulk of the gold that went to faceless men instead of back to valeria? Just made me think that maybe they were plotting how to take over westeros by selling these swords everywhere - family business - which makes it extra cool that Aegon takes all the swords of westeros lords that oppose him and melt them into his thrown - family legacy.
Is it just me but if it were the Targaryens that did this wouldn't they bring many Valyrian steel craftsman to make sure that their source of gold was secured
The may be another reason the Faceless Men don't want to openly admit they set off the Doom. I bet a lot of people wanted to get their hands/blades on anyone who caused it.
Amazing work as always. I love this theory and how well it is backed up and how you draw parallels to the moon meteor and azor ahai symbolism that is peppered throughout the books.
I'm about halfway through ASoS and I haven't read any of the other world-building books, but would it be possible for the kindly man to be telling Arya about the _founding_ of the Faceless Men? That is, the escaped slaves that founded their order were the ones that created the Doom in the first place, and this was the first task they undertook?
Awesome as always, LML. I have a question about FM's views on slavery. They don't really seem to be too much concerned with it imo. As was said, Aenar had his slaves (who maybe became serfs when on Dragonstone). But if they were opposed to slavery, wouldn't they do something about Mereen, Yunkai, etc? Most of the Free Cities also practice slavery. All this means that the Doom was done not because of FM's hate of slavery, but for monetary reasons - thoughts?
DoVisenya good point, but think about the faceless men, they aren’t an army, their assassins. Would killing a couple top dogs in Meereen, Astapor, Yunkai, etc really stop slavery? Let’s say you took out the top dogs in all those cities. Wouldn’t some one else just take their place? Isn’t this what happens to Dany in Astapor? They might have even tried but realized they can’t change the way their whole world works with assassinations.
But I do agree with you partly, we don’t actually have a lot of evidence that the Faceless Men hate slavery. We know that they hated the Valerians. Slavery itself is more complicated especially in the time period of our story. I Think it was Dario’s explanation that said some slaves want the employment and can have a high quality of live and even some dignity in some cases (some, not all) the Faceless men could of not liked the sacrifices of slaves to the fire more than the concept of slavery in general
I completely agree!!!!! I feel it has more to do with money and power instead of moral reasons. I think Daenerys upbringing being poor and on the run is why she’s so against slavery. Her ancestors had money but were no great power, and if they had a hand in the doom they were the it family.
I agree neither the Faceless Men nor Bravos has done anything to get rid of slavery in Essos, aside from Bravos defeating Pentos but all that did was change the form of slavery Pentos practice and let be real Bravos and the Iron bank without a doubt profits from slavery in Essos.
I wish it turned out that the valaryians became too harsh to their dragons and the dragons revolted! So theres just a kingdom run by dragons and they dont let anyone in lol, maybe asoiaf alternate universe.
Did the Targaryens do the Doom? Well no documents show that the royal family had direct knowledge of the plot, but several princes did indirectly fund the conspiracy. Additionally, a member of the Targaryen government did house the Faceless Men upon their arrival in Valyria and help them acquire visas so they could stay in the country. One of these same Faceless Men would be reported to the government after a Dragon Flight Instructor said he trained these men in flying dragons, but none of them were interested in learning how to land the beasts.
I keep a fish room in my basement. A few years ago during the coldest week of winter, our furnace died and then there was a blackout in my neighborhood that lasted 3 days. Between all the filters going out and the cold, all of my fish died but 1. I named him Aenar and refer to the incident as the Doom.
Wow that’s dark. But fitting
@@DavidLightbringer Yeah, it sucked, but it's been a few years now. Aenar is still going strong, so there's that and the tanks have all been slowly restocked since that time. Also put a generator in.
@@hardybryan Damn, give it a few more years and you'll have a selfproclaimed fish sitting ontop of your Iron sink claiming to be king over the Showerbeds and the Toilet wastelands, riding your cat into battle conquering his foes!
@@MentalBrothers 😆😆😆
Damn sorry to hear about all of your fish... Sucks you weren't able to get some other kind of heated for you and your fish for a few days.
All that gold going to the faceless men in Braavos, someone should start a bank.
Robert Knoll lol hahah underrated comment
The Iron bank! Mind Blown!
What a bold and yet clever way to launder your blood money.
@@wallybonejengles5595 I mean... it would explain the fact that the guards are watching the money AND EACH OTHER. Seems like the Mafias of the world should take note.
I suspect the Iron Bank gets a huge discount when hiring FM to collect debts.
'largly based on logic'
*Dan and dave have left the building*
You mean the planet
They sorta forgot.
So Aenor Targaryen was basically Littlefinger of Valyria? A lesser lord looked down upon by the elite, who creates chaos and destruction for him to use as an opportunity to build wealth and power..
Well Aenor is a high born in the first place though, with the dragon rider gene within him and certainly not rags to richest
@Sean Francis Waters Lancaster the Targaryens was not the weakest of the Dragonlord families they were not one of the most powerful but they were not the weakest either and their were 40 Dragonlord families that ruled Valyria not 43.
Given Littlefinger's grandfather (or great-grandfather, dont remember entirely but pretty sure it was the grandfather) was from Braavos, founded by valyrian slaves, and how in our world there were quite a few mixed-race slave children, they could even share some sort of (very) distant ancestry. Completely irrelevant either way, given most people in Essos, at least, if not Westeros, are probably descended from Valyrians, but the theory popped into my head the second I read "Littlefinger of Valyria"
*Aenar, not Aenor
@Sean Francis Waters Lancaster 40* families. There were just 40 dragonlord families, not 43. Where did you get the 43 from?
I wonder if Daenys's vision actually gave Aenar the idea to create the Doom, the ultimate self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm very interested in the idea that Marwyn found 3 pages of Daenys's book Signs and Portents.
Self fulfilling prophecy seems to be George’s thing, the prophecy in itself isn’t really true but the actions it inspires are real and seem to fulfill he prophecy in a way.
that's very Dune too
Maybe those pages are the ones in the Behind the scenes of HotD... The ones were it's revealed that Daenys was the First rider of Balerion and that the dream of the Doom came to her the very same night she tamed him.
I, now, am convinced by this theory of LmL but I would love an actualization of this subject by him specially considering that in those pages it's also revealed that It was Daenys' mom Elaena Targaryen the one who was ambitious and resentful towards the other valyrian families and It was towards her that Daenys ran in terror during the night after dreaming the Doom....
Interesting stuff...
While this theory is plausible, there are still several major holes in it.
1. If most of Targaryen wealth came from trade between Essos and Westeros and in particular the trade of Valyrian steel, why would they destroy Valyria and consequently plunge Essos into civil war?
2. Destroying Valyria did not destroy all of the dragons. As far as I recall, several dragon lords remained in the Valyrian colonies after the Doom, and it took another century of civil war to wipe them out. It was pretty obvious that the Targaryens would not gain a dragon monopoly from the Doom.
3. Other than petty revenge, there seemed to be no real reason for the Targaryens to destroy Valyria. If the Targaryens were clever enough to pull off the Doom, then they would have been clever enough to use it to their advantage. The invasion of Westeros happened well after the Doom, and considering that Valyria had not shown any particular interest in Westeros for thousands of years beyond the odd trading post, it seems unlikely that the Freehold would have objected to the Targaryens conquering it.
Personally, I think this theory makes more sense, if the Targaryens hired the Faceless Men to take out some old rivals after being forced into exile (the prophetic dream might have been true, or just an attempt to save face) and the Faceless Men used that wealth to fund the Doom. The Faceless Men always talk about people as tools, so it seems plausible that they saw the Targaryens as tools, or as a means to achieve their ends. The Targaryens never intended to cause the Doom, they just wanted revenge.
Would the top dogs let a small player conquer a continent and keep it to themselves? Really unlikely, that would shift the power dynamic quite a bit. But your other ideas are good, Targaryens may not have been the sly puppet musters but folks who were smart enough to see the opportunity and dumb enough not to see all the consequences. Petty revenge is also quite a believable motive for a dragon lord reduced to living on a rock in the middle of nowhere.
@@michaelkulakov9716 Uncontrollable underlings getting too violent is also a common ASOIAF trope. Everyone from the Goldcloaks to the Sand Snakes gleefully leap into bludgeoning and murder when left unattended.
But if they believed that the Doom would wipe out the whole of Valyria, why would they then bother to waste a ton of gold to hire the Faceless Men to do what they had already expected to be achieved by the cataclysm of the Doom? :)
It would create their best chance at creating a monopoly. It's one of the reasons they practice incest amongst dragon-riders, to monopolize the dragon power. Creating scarcity of Valyrian steel would drive up the prices. It honestly isn't the best business plan, but villains are stupid, and if the Targaryens caused the Doom, then they could very well qualify as villains, especially if it was like a Mafia hit to eliminate rivals instead of ending tyranny, leaving them the Valyrian Godfathers.
The motive in this particular crime story is thin. Unless they couldn't fully understand the consequences.
I wonder, do you think Aenar, knowing his daughter has reliable prophetic dreams, could have used a glass candle to perhaps plant the dream of The Doom in Daenys' mind with the knowledge that she would immediately warn the family, and then they could "flee" to Dragonstone? No one would question where her dream came from, and Aenar would have the excuse to get him and his family safely away.
Shannon0893 check out my comment, I was thinking along the same lines. We know dreams can be influenced. I was thinking the great other or one of his minions but I like your idea too
@@PaiMeiofthelotusclan very very sneaky guys, haha
I mean that's an inside inside job, good lawd. Right inside the skull
I think it more likely that the opposite happened : Daenys' dream inspired Aenar's plan. If the destruction of Valyria was already fortold, it would have been smart of Aenar to get out of the way, and to make sure that it happened in a way that benefited him and his family.
Why are people sleeping on your awesome content? As much as I love how in-depth Order of the Green Hand is, your scripts are way tighter. Also, you are so diligent about referencing other creators. Thanks for single-handedly reigniting my love for ASOIAF.
i commented the same thing on another LML video - this guy really knows what he does
couldn’t agree more i love the genuine intrigue that these vids can capture
I'm back here at 81.3k subs baby!
This immediately makes me want to relate "burn them all" to this. The Mad King maybe himself had some kind of flash back where he saw that his own ancestor Targs' claim to the Westeros throne was rooted in some kind of morally questionable blood magic pact that was connected to the destruction of an entire civilization? I'm always trying to figure out what exactly it must have been for The Mad King to see that was so earth shattering it made him go mad.
I think it could have been bloodraven trying to warn Aerys about the White Walkers and Wights
@@Mizelei2012 Yes I think that's a good possibility!
@Chuck Spadina He wasn't always as deranged as a young person though, according to reports
Him being imprisoned for 6 months probably didn't help
"Burn them all," was time travelling Bran. I think he was mad because Bloodraven kept warging into him.
Loving your Monty Python banter about no one expecting the faceless men and their one, two, no make that three, well alright four weapons! Humorous and interesting way to make your point.
Makes me wonder how the FM view Dany: on one hand, she is actively ending slavery in the east, but on the other she has brought dragons back to planetos.
Goes for Bravos as a whole as well. Both Bravos and the FM were founded by anti-dragon slaves. I'd like to think theyre more anti-slavery than anti-dragon, but who knows
You and lml would get along
If the Targareans gave the faceless men the tools to destroy valeria then perhaps they are cool with targs
Planetos 💀💀💀
Considering that there's one of them in the Citadel searching for a key to get a misterious book and hanging out with the writer of The Book of Lost Books who's now heading to Meereen to "guide" Daenerys they might be ok with her..... It all actually depends on what's the deal with Marwyn, LmL seems to think he wants to help Dany but he might well be serving to the Church of Starry Wisdom and considering that also the FM helped Euron to get rid of Baelon.... it's all actually very confuse. Maybe Euron Is a necessary evil to bring back the Long Night and reset everything but who knows Marwyn IMO Is shady af.
I don’t think dragons are inherently evil, they’re animals.
So, I couldn't help relate the fiery Doom to your more recent videos about "fire wights" and "fire others." First, I noted that there is a section of the Valyrian Freehold called "The Lands of Long Summer," a phrase that mirrors "The Long Night" which is obviously associated with cold and "Winter." But there is also the odd case of Aerea Targaryen who, atop Balerion the last living creature to have witnessed pre-Doom Valyria, apparently went to the ruins of Valyria and upon returning died in a really interesting way. She basically burned from the inside, and her body was infested with "unspeakable things...creatures of heat and fire" who only "died" when exposed to "cold and ice." This apparently inspired King Jaehaerys to forbid any Westerosi from going to Valyria under penalty of death. There's something wacky going on with Valyrian magic and whatever caused the Doom seems almost like a reverse "Long Night."
The dragonlords, in their greed dug to deeply. Sounds like a balrog to me and the doom of moria
That’s what I always think of too 😆
@@AshePBlack a volcano
The taxidermy slapstick got
me 😂😂😂😂😆
It's the extra stuff that you do so well that brings me back time and time again! Well that and geeking out HARD on ASOIAF.
It's also funny that the lannisters literally played a hand in the doom of house targaryen, much like they did with their gold in valyria's doom.
I really enjoyed this video,LML ! This video was a tall, cool refreshing drink in the dry parched desert that is the wait the next book!
Im on a in depth LML binge, so I'm going through and liking every video I've already watched.. Great research!
Oh this is a fun one
Excellent work on one of the least discussed but most important theories/conspiracies in this story. Great animation, narration and humor. Well worth watching multiple times
EPIC!
Viserys told us what happened in Valyria and he didn't noticed 😂😂😂 when he is talking to Rhaenyra, 1st episode..
And the same sentence justified Vhagar's actions towards Aemond.
" The idea that we control dragons is an illusion.
They're a power, man should've never trifled with.
One that brought Valyria it's doom, if we don't mind our own histories , it will do the same to us"
Dragons turned on themselves and burned the entire city to the ground.. now he know what causes the doom.
How could I have ever lived without these videos is beyond me...
Edit: Where is Part II?
He rescued his family from the doom and created wealth for his family. But his offspring fought against family for power. That is pretty dumb and short sighted. Since so many Targeyarians and Dragons died. They weakened themselves.
On a serious note, I love listening to how this was all put together. It's like watching the pieces of a massive puzzle come together and seeing how they were arranged to fit. I hadn't even thought about the monetary aspect of why Aenar would come to Dragonstone, but it makes sense. He saw a chance not just to get out, but still live in exceeding luxury and comfort. And since the Targaryens weren't a particularly powerful house at the time, them leaving might have been mocked, but also wouldn't likely raise suspicion because it could look like them deciding they couldn't compete anymore with the houses so they're going somewhere they can compete easier (and probably played into other Valyrians' vanity). Plus since they weren't particularly powerful Aenar didn't have to worry about other dragon lords actually taking him that seriously and following him and his allies. On a non-serious note, I couldn't help imagining Aenar as Scrooge McDuck when you mentioned him swimming in gold. And that man was definitely a fan of horror, cause the second his 12 year old started talking about supernatural terror about to be unleashed, he knew to pack up and sell the house. He decided to not be the guy in whatever the Valyrian equivalent of a horror movie was. Also the Monty Python reference was worth all the gold of the Lannisters.
I have been binging your videos and truly enjoy the depth you bring into Asoiaf, and the voice and humor too. I'll need to get the rest of Martin's books now.
oh wow that's fantastic to hear! Put a smile on my face :)
Love the Facless Men Spanish Inquisition interpretation!
The quote says Aenor brought along his fam and stuff but also his slaves. Yet slavery did not catch on in Westeros. I think you and Ba'al touched on this in the live stream, but do you think freeing slaves or stopping slavery was part of his deal with the FM? That would fit with Dany being the breaker of chains and her ultimate fate.
yes, and I'm going to talk about that in P2. I think I found more evidence that that was part of the purpose
as Preston Jacobs often argues, Feudalism and serfdom really is another form of slavery (at least in GRRMartin's perspective, as he draws some parallels between serfs and slaves)
@@DavidLightbringer you don't know lucifer. Meet his son th-cam.com/video/iMp7BHahY8c/w-d-xo.html watch him when you are bored. He's a dark Sith... And his forehead is blessed with the blood and guts of little baby jesus.
@@whitealliance9540 quiet, nazi
@ sorry I dont think black people can be Nazis... Kinda a conflict of interest ... But you have ZI in your last name so you can be a Nazi for me.
Be cute and wear daddys musky thong.
Saw this comment in one of your videos David, it said "
" *No one* knows what cause the Doom." I love that detail!
"Just like the people who can ONLY live in downtown Manhattan". YES!! This New Yorker who lives in Brooklyn says YES!
glad someone feels me on that... I'm from SF but same deal
Lucifer means Lightbringer it used to be said that SF was the only west coast city that would feel like home for a NYer.
@@DavidLightbringer We get a lot of San Franciscans moving to Asheville, NC these days. I read quite a few Californians writing for local papers call it the Little San Francisco of the Mountains, but I think it's mostly a micro brewery thing, along with connections between various types of art that originates from both places.
@@Nga_Babaye that's interesting, because Asheville is on my list of places to retire to (they are also known for having an active lifestyle). I have a few years to go, but it can't hurt to plan! I need to find someplace where geeks/nerds are in reasonable numbers :-)
@Dr. M. H. I have no idea why property skyrocketed over there in 1990s other than Mission Hospital-St. Joseph Merger and everyone wanted to come in and work at it, and the brewery shit. I just believe in living outside and playing inside. Biltmore only upgraded because of Mission's growth.
I can't believe this went over my head entirely I'm at like 25:00 and screaming
which one, the fame of George flipping the bird?
@@DavidLightbringer All of it !!! Stoked for part 2
17:20 took me completly off guard i am dying right know hahahahahaha may the Lord of Light bless u...!
I wanted to brush up on this video before I check out your new one. Thanks for all your work, man!
Hey LML just wanted to say Thanks and show some appreciation for the great quality of videos! You and Quinn’s Ideas of made me obsessed with ASOIAF can’t thank you enough
one of my fav theories you got on here sir i am a targaryen supporter to the bone so painting them as abolishionists really lights my targ fire 🔥
Awesome work on both the script and the visuals! Nice link to the moon meteors, can't wait for part 2 😁
Ah, at last a proper stretch of time (90 minutes , yes I am very obsessive and thorough in my viewings) to relish this completely fabulous video. Thank you many times, so looking forward to Part 2!
Maybe Valyria was going through a time period where they didn’t take the magic seriously and it became a domino effect. The Targaryen’s could have warned them and another house could have been conspiring?
That’s very possible, and if they ever do a Valyria show that would be a good way to spice up the plot
Aenar.. This entire time I've been thinking he's a super unimportant character. What if Dany is some kind of sacrifice for some kind of magic fire/ice pact her ancient grandfather made for his own benefit?? She definitely has this theme of fulfilling things that people who ruled before her started..
Interesting theory. But I'm confused as to exactly how Aenar Targaryan went about hiring the Faceless Men. It's not like this kind of contract and transfer of wealth could be done remotely. And a 3rd party transaction seems pretty dubious too. Surely, this has to be a face to Face(less) negotiation. But before the Doom, Braavos was known as the "Hidden City". It's location not widely known, and especially hidden from the Dragonlords of Valyria. So how could AT even learn about Braavos in the first place? He seems to be precisely THE last person in the world the Braavosi would entrust with any information regarding their city.
Plus, before Braavos really came out to the rest of the world in the centuries following the Doom, would anyone in the wider world even have heard of the Faceless Men? And even if they had, surely they wouldn't have had anything like their current reputation.
So as a matter of grounded practicality, how exactly could AT have possibly hired the Faceless Men?
Not only would TFM have a personal investment in the job (being descendants of escaped slaves of the Freehold), but if AT met the conditions of acquiring their services (third of his wealth) they’d have absolutely done it.
Getting in contact with TFM wouldn’t have been difficult considering proximity between Braavos and Dragonstone. Even if dragons struggle to locate Braavos due to the fog, intermediaries could’ve easily been used to arrange a meeting.
theyr're faceless men, they're no one, you can pay no one to kill someone. its that simple to them
What a fun listen! This reminded me of how much I enjoyed reading and listening to ASOIAF theories and all the symbolism analysis. I’m going to go listen to the longer discussion now to get more of this. And I look forward to your Part II.
Hey Lily! Great to see you around!
Hmm, well it would seem to me that your theory ALSO gives a motivation for even the initial move of the Targaryens to Dragonstone, and it wasn't just $$$. If he was able to orchestrate this masterpeice of a plan, it stands to reason that all of it would be connected and the plan was either already in place or in the works before leaving Valyria, with the move being the first step. Just think of simple things such as communication lines, gold shipments, planning, etc (there could be 1000 items on this list). Being on Dragonstone would help the logistics of the entire scheme. Not to mention the increased security inherent in being so far removed from Valyria, full of people with zero motivation or reason to investigate, or hell even visit, some minor Lord on some useless rock thousands of miles away from anything important.
I think this is a solid take.
Why you still don't have more the 30k subscribers beggars belief. You deliver a constant stream of quality material. And the live streams are also always top notch.
THE PHOTO OF MARTIN MADE ME ACTUALLY SPIT COFFEE! DAMN IT LUCI! 🤣👌🏻
I’m becoming more and more convinced with each video that Dany will indeed “go home.” She will restore the land of her ancestors - Valeria.
How?
Valyria is a smoking, demon-infested hellscape. You literally cannot traverse it. No one returns from there.
If you’re referring to the Valyria we got in the show, that was not book accurate at all.
The last time someone travelled to Valyria, they wound up infested with Firewyrms and died painfully and there was something big enough to hurt Balerion, who was MUCH larger and dangerous than any of Dany's dragons.
No; Asshai! Home of her ancestor, the amethyst empress.
17:23 coffee spitting. HUUUUUU 😂😂 amazing editing and call back lol
Wow been watching for close to two years and just realized I wasn't subscribed. Always in my suggestions. Subbed just now tho my man. Keep up the content. Ty
Man, this assassination of the mages must have been akin to Walter White killing all those inmates
Hey! I liked the style of the video during the quoted sections. Very cool 🤘🏻
In acok varys was telling that joke about a priest assassin and someone else and tyrion asks varys who was the assassin he said "he was no one"
Not only the amount of gold for brightroar was enough for an army. We also have to understand through basic economics that the gold people use to trade in most of westeros would've been mined in the Rock which through trade between families and merchants over the course of years and decades would've trickled down to the gold most people in westeros would use.
So in a way most of the trade aenar did in westeros was paid for gold mined from the Rock which i would assume would be much larger than the amount of gold received for brightroar
Oh okay that’s another angle on that prophecy no one has mentioned. But yes you’re right, almost all the golden conns Westeros has ever had came from Casterly mines. Very good
I pray for a glimpse of Winds of Winter, and the TH-cam Algorithm shows me only LML.
Bruh how do you not have more subs this shit is well thought out, didnt think I could get back into the series after the TV show ending but here we goooo
Thanks so much for saying so :)
I’m soo looking forward to this :)
That Monty Python/Faceless Man/Spanish Inquisition bit was absolutely hilarious. ...And if we knew each other better I'd throw "fucking" in there somewhere.Thank you so much for the laugh LmL!
I think part of what you're saying makes sense. I would of thought if he wanted to completely corner the Valyrian Sword market, you'd learn to make them. I think there's a possibility that the Maesters were the ones who sold Bright Roar to the Lannister's
Thanks for this rare, nice, short, to-the-point presentation!!! The Starks' Ice is 400 yrs old [barely pre-doom]; the Tarlys' Heartsbane is 100 yrs older [clearly pre-doom]. Is this history important?
More significant? According to Old Nan (A+ credibility), The Last Hero's sword froze and broke before he found the Children of the Forest, who apparently had no metal weapons. So how did he suddenly acquire the powerful sword that forced the Others to retreat? Was it Ice? Dawn?
I am firmly convinced that the AA legend/prophesy happened in Essos and that The Last Hero saved Westeros from The Long Night. I also like the idea that Sam's home is Horn Hill, as in the horn that he has resisted selling and carried with him ever since Ed? Ghost? discovered it.
Love the fancy upgraded channel logo! Also hurray for Monty Python jokes :P
Azor Ahai warged Nisa Nisa. Garth the Green used blood magic to extend his life and empower himself by sacrificing the Children of the Forest.
Which came first, Daenys' dreams or Aenar's schemes?
The chicken, or the egg?
because its "history" i imagine he told her they should move to invrease wealth, she told him of her prophecy which aligned with his actions, he made the move, told the lords it was for a dream, and got rich, idk if im still convinved he caused the doom,
With 14 vulcanos you have any number of sleeping vulcanos at the same time. If you have 5 naturally occurring sleepy ones all you need is to control the others. And active could mean just small amounts of steam and stone (watched way too many vulcanology documentaries). Magic might be just as powerful as luck and planning, at the same time?
Has anyone realized that Jon killing denarys with a blade to her heart is eerily similar to the azor ahai legend?
well he is Azor Ahai right?
Definitely curious to continue this discussion to convince me of this. I do have a few doubts but more so I just think a few more entities were likely involved. Braavos to me can not be ignored, FM were headquartered in Braavos by this time , Braavos were escaped slaves from the Freehold who surely would at some point want revenge , let alone seeing the level of slavery being enacted by the Valyrians. Ntm Braavos had major geo-political motivations here , Braavos were emerging on the world stage in a big way , having accumulated substantial wealth (more than enough to contribute towards paying the FM) and did so literally in the fog away from the Valyrians until fairly recently leading up to The Doom. Braavos also had further global power / influence aspirations and had to be wary that they could only expand so much with Valyria / their dragons around let alone at their peak and that the Valyrians would likely at some point swoop in for Braavos' riches , possibly destroy the city and surely enslave many in the process. For me Braavos can not be left out of the equation. And the Citadel as well , we know they are wary of magical entities like dragons (especially in more recent generations leading up to and through the current ASoIaF) , later on likely at least part instigated The Dance (which resulted in the deaths of many dragons) and from first hand admission very likely played a part in the decline and eventual extinction of the remaining dragons after The Dance. Plus the Citadel could have had outside support an encouragement within Westeros from factions who like the Citadel worried the Freehold would eventually shift their gaze and expansion westward.
Valyria were an evil empire who created a lot of enemies along the way with conquest, destruction , genocide , mass slavery , torture , twisted experimentation etc. But in particular Braavos to me seems to be a massive candidate here for involvement and even the Citadel as well. The Targs did have some motivations as well , they were seemingly one of the lowest of the 40 Dragon-lord Houses in Valyria so why not leave to change their fortunes , saw a great opportunity for wealth and power advancement between their dragons and the Velaryon's ships controlling their portion of the Narrow Sea and going from a lowly House in Valyria to the only House in Westeros with dragons must have been appealing ; let alone post The Doom being the only House in the world with dragons remaining. Where I have my doubts is that it seemed the Targs had a good thing going at that time , gaining power and influence in Westeros , controlling sea trade acquiring great wealth in the process and seemingly were not under threat from Valyria and I am not sure I believe in any sort of moral enlightenment or superiority with the Targs playing a major role in their motivations for numerous reasons.
I am open to continuing the discussion , with more evidence and support to sway my thinking, not that I am totally against it any way but atm I still feel it was a wider conspiracy / operation beyond only the Targs & the FM and I have a few slight concerns with the Targs feeling motivated and emboldened enough to act how & when they did or a much of moral impetus with the Targs. Though I look forward to getting deeper and deeper in this discussion and weigh everything out.
great points Alex. I think that I generally see the FM, the Ion Bank, and the political powers of Braavos as simpatico; that's why I'm assuming the general motivations of the escaped slaves of Braavos apply to the FM. So we are on the same page there. It's totally possible (as I mentioned in the video) that the FM / Braavos in general had enough motivation to cause the Doom by themselves. But if that was all there was to it, why the passage about the prophecy of casterly Gold causing the Doom? Brightroar in particular is tied to Valyria in so many ways as well. I also agree the maesters are a logical suspect, but don't see any textual clues about their being involved with Brightroar, Casterly Gold, or the Doom.
As for Aenar's motives, I will make my full argument in Part 2, but essentially I think there's only 2 ways Aenar willingly participates in the genocide of his entire nation: he's either a complete sociopath the likes of which we've rarely ever seen on earth, or, he saw that Valyria was on track for another 5,000 years of slavery and genocide unless someone with inside knowledge brought them down,. I think it's actually more likely and logical that he was horrified by Valyria (sooner or later some Valyrians WOULD dissent, just as happens everywhere in the real world) than he was a genocidal maniac... because he didn't try to conquer or enslave anyone after he was "the only one left with dragons."
@@DavidLightbringer yeah I mostly agree with your claims / theory tbh , and I am not saying the Targs were not involved , I just happen to think a few factions came together beyond just the Targs and FM. I was not aware you were lumping those Braavosi factions together in this situation but yes the Iron Bank , top of Braavosi power structure and the FM did have a seemingly joint interest against the Valyrians. The FM to me just seem a separate entity to the Braavosi hierarchy being that the FM have their own agenda and M.O. that sometimes intersects with Braavos. The FM it seems of course would be willing to do anything for the right price and being formed under Valyrian slavery in the mines was definitely an added bonus to get one over on the Freehold but I was missing the fact that the Iron Bank and Braavosi power / political structure factored in your T + FM = D . But if they are factored all in together all those Braavosi entities then I am even closer to being fully on board. And I do agree with you GRRM is not going to put "throw away" concepts with Lannister gold linked to The Doom , Brightroar coming into House Lannister just before The Doom. As I am saying I just thought it seemed more a joint venture beyond only the Targs and the FM.
The problem I have with Targ morality is a few fold and I just don't think its totally clear. For one , only a generation or so later they not so benevolently put Westeros to the sword or more like to the dragon , conquering the continent with not any sort of claim , giving the lords of the realm the choice of bending the knee or death , of which resulted in a lot of bloodshed and atrocity including Harrenhal , Field of Fire etc. Also , the Targs did have , use and brought over slaves , so I am not so sure they were purely against the practice but they were politically very astute and abandoning the practice to gain favor and acceptance in Westeros could have factored in. Just like adopting a sigil , joining The Faith , occasionally marrying into the Houses of the realm etc. If they continued slavery they would have further emboldened resistance before , during and after the Conquest and limited their political and power opportunities on the continent imo. So the fact they had slaves not that long before they made the trip over to Dragonstone and had political aspirations in Westeros , well done they abandoned slavery but I am not sure it was purely a morality move. Ntm , they were at or near the bottom of the Dragonlord hierarchy in Valyria so there was more upward mobility in Westeros with financial opportunity they seized with the Velaryon's with sea trade and power wise being the only House with Dragons in the immediate area. That being said perhaps not the Targs overall but Aenar himself could have been a woke enlightened guy with wanting to stop Valyrian oppression and atrocity , I just am not sure the behavior of Aegon and subsequent Targs meant that same level of morality continued to near the same degree after Aenar.
But it is possible the Targs or as I said more likely just Aenar himself grew horrified with the Freehold overall because over the 5 millennia of their existence they certainly grew into a proper evil empire with destruction , genocide , insane levels of mass slavery , torture , all sorts of twisted experimentation etc. And perhaps the generations after Aenar did not have the exact views he had and when Aegon I saw a power vacuum with no other dragons on Planetos and weak ability to resist them on Westeros somewhat corrupted the once held morality. And of course with the upward mobility and prosperity (financially especially) opportunity for the Targs from leaving Valyria for Westeros has to be factored in also. But with Aenar himself I am definitely open to him being rather woke for his time.
And if the Braavosi top brass and the Iron Bank are in together with the FM in your formula then i am very close to being fully on board anyway. With The Citadel though I agree we do not have direct textual evidence with The Doom but I think its not purely coincidental the stories from the main series and companions novels / novellas we have gotten with the maesters likely part instigating the Dance which killed a lot of dragons , and likely poisoned or some form of intervention to wipe out the dragons / line of dragons remaining after the Dance , that its not a massive stretch to think they would have likely tried to take part and contribute towards taking out the biggest , largest most threatening Dragon Empire on Planetos just a couple centuries before the known actions against dragons we know they likely took. Why even throw those asides in there and attribute such actions to the Citadel / maesters for instance , could be to hint they played a part in The Doom. Ntm , the Citadel and Westerosi powers in general had to be wary the Freehold would eventually have western aspirations at some point. And it is fairly clear that most any magical entities like dragons in particular are not in the majority of the Citadel's worldview so I do think its fairly plausible they could have played some part in The Doom. Braavos & the Iron Bank I am nearly certain of their involvement , Citadel I have my suspicions as well and the Targs are def in for a shout they certainly benefited massively from The Doom I am just torn on their exact motivations. Was it purely a power move or was their a morality view at play which with Aenar in particular I can get behind him having a moral impetus. I am just not sure if that collective morality genuinely permeated much beyond Aenar to subsequent Targs , especially with the Conquest not that long after which of course brings in some moral questions along with a lot other questionable immoral behavior from the Targs in the immediate generations after as well.
@@DavidLightbringer I do find the theory of Aenar paying the FM in order to blown up Valyria fascinating. But considering how hated the Valyrians were a lot of people probably wanted their empire to disappear . Perhaps Aenar found out the FM were planning to blow up Valyria by killing their mages.Or the FM contacted him first. The gold he received out of selling valyrian steel coud have been used to convince the FM to spare him and his family. He also could have provided the FM much needed information how to infiltrate Valyria and who exactly to kill. It would explain why the FM never bothered the Targaryens after the Doom. They owed them a lot.
i absolutely love your videos. thank you for all of the work and the love that you put into them.🔥
A thought which is only just occurred to me, is how did littlefinger know how much it cost to hire a faceless man to assassinate a merchant? Who was he looking to assassinate?
Great video. If you watch enough of Randall Carlson's videos on symbolism and the understand the principle of the language of the birds, you can find alot of stuff in these incredible books that I think GRRM is using as hints of stuff that happened here in our ancient history. Magic and dragons representing some form of technology, ancient advanced civilizations and transfers of technology leaving behind only traces after some cataclysm destroys them. Passing down of sacred information through 100s of generations. It's really incredible how well planned out and brilliantly written this story is.
This was excellent!..
I'd love so bad, to hear what G.R.R.Martin thinks to all this!? lol..
Is it spot on, close at least etc??..
Great effort my guy, you made this video as riveting as an ep of GoT (In it's prime!)..
Quite the accomplishment!!..
😎👌👍
21:45 Brightroar got Valyria kersploded, and was then lost in Valyria.
Karma swings both ways.
25:50 Wasn't there some other Dragonlord lunatic who took over Volantis and the Free Cities for a while? - Point is; the Targaryens weren't the last people who had dragons, but they were the last _family_ with the _infrastructure_ to _raise_ *new* dragons.
27:15 That's also an End of Evangelion reference, I think. Apocalypse-Rei as Nissa Nissa.q
I gotta say I fuckin LOVE your intro music. Its EPIC gets me hype every video
Spoilers do u think fthe Targs did it with the gold from Lannister’s buying bright roar they said you could buy an army(or the faceless Men for the price the Lannister’s paid
Rachael , yes LmL has said that in recent streams that the Targs could have sold the Lannisters Brightroar for the funding of the operation (with Lannister gold from the sword purchase) , which certainly is a possibility. But I am sure LmL will clarify further in this vid which I believe premieres tomorrow.
@@alexb3604 you are both correct! And Rachael the stream Alex is talking about is this livestream with Ba'al the Bard where we workshopped the ideas that went into this vid and the Part 2 I will make soon: th-cam.com/video/bNZXahUJ1Bg/w-d-xo.html
@@DavidLightbringer didn't you mention in this very video that house Stark got its sword just before the doom of valeria? My first thought was that maybe Aenor got his fortune from selling swords all over westeros. ... or maybe the point is that he just charged more for the lannisters so they were the bulk of the gold that went to faceless men instead of back to valeria?
Just made me think that maybe they were plotting how to take over westeros by selling these swords everywhere - family business - which makes it extra cool that Aegon takes all the swords of westeros lords that oppose him and melt them into his thrown - family legacy.
@@WarrenEBB wow,, if that was his plan then what aegon did is the most brutally beautiful thing I've heard off
15:32 "this makes alot of sense", whilst showing a still of an open topped sword cast
Is it just me but if it were the Targaryens that did this wouldn't they bring many Valyrian steel craftsman to make sure that their source of gold was secured
loved that little skit of dany the dreamer and the dooom of valyria👍👍👍👍👍
The may be another reason the Faceless Men don't want to openly admit they set off the Doom. I bet a lot of people wanted to get their hands/blades on anyone who caused it.
livid i missed the premiere
Yes! Can't wait!
This video sheds light on what pates alchemist said GOLD FOR IRON . The gold of casterly rock for iron of the valeryion steel sword brightroar .
oh hey that's a good thought!
This was great!!!
So...we in america are valyrian mages and are controlling Yellowstone caldera? Dope....
You didn't notice the glowing red eyes of all the Yellowstone "Park Rangers?" Total giveaway
Amazing work as always. I love this theory and how well it is backed up and how you draw parallels to the moon meteor and azor ahai symbolism that is peppered throughout the books.
I love this. Very visual video and I hope you do more like this
Came for the ASOIAF theories, stayed for the monty python references
I didnt expect the faceless inquisition
CAN'T WAIT FOR PART TWO!
Me and my bro chatted about this and thought up a hilarious theory that the doom was the birth of the red god.
I'm about halfway through ASoS and I haven't read any of the other world-building books, but would it be possible for the kindly man to be telling Arya about the _founding_ of the Faceless Men? That is, the escaped slaves that founded their order were the ones that created the Doom in the first place, and this was the first task they undertook?
Wow your so right!!
I thought this was going to be about doom, but it's just feeding my addiction
Love your video, get up the great work
Awesome as always, LML.
I have a question about FM's views on slavery. They don't really seem to be too much concerned with it imo. As was said, Aenar had his slaves (who maybe became serfs when on Dragonstone). But if they were opposed to slavery, wouldn't they do something about Mereen, Yunkai, etc? Most of the Free Cities also practice slavery. All this means that the Doom was done not because of FM's hate of slavery, but for monetary reasons - thoughts?
DoVisenya good point, but think about the faceless men, they aren’t an army, their assassins. Would killing a couple top dogs in Meereen, Astapor, Yunkai, etc really stop slavery? Let’s say you took out the top dogs in all those cities. Wouldn’t some one else just take their place? Isn’t this what happens to Dany in Astapor? They might have even tried but realized they can’t change the way their whole world works with assassinations.
But I do agree with you partly, we don’t actually have a lot of evidence that the Faceless Men hate slavery. We know that they hated the Valerians. Slavery itself is more complicated especially in the time period of our story. I Think it was Dario’s explanation that said some slaves want the employment and can have a high quality of live and even some dignity in some cases (some, not all) the Faceless men could of not liked the sacrifices of slaves to the fire more than the concept of slavery in general
I completely agree!!!!! I feel it has more to do with money and power instead of moral reasons. I think Daenerys upbringing being poor and on the run is why she’s so against slavery. Her ancestors had money but were no great power, and if they had a hand in the doom they were the it family.
I agree neither the Faceless Men nor Bravos has done anything to get rid of slavery in Essos, aside from Bravos defeating Pentos but all that did was change the form of slavery Pentos practice and let be real Bravos and the Iron bank without a doubt profits from slavery in Essos.
This video was AWESOME!!!
Watching this AGAIN!
Peace and wholeness fam
I wish it turned out that the valaryians became too harsh to their dragons and the dragons revolted! So theres just a kingdom run by dragons and they dont let anyone in lol, maybe asoiaf alternate universe.
Great video, nice input
wildly entertaining
Dragon fire can't melt basalt rock towers. Checkmate. Inside job confirmed.
I love that you creadit me for the Littlefinger quote, but I actually think I got it from a video on the subject by Sacret Order of Green Hand
"glass candle" - they were describing a mobile phone lmao
Did the Targaryens do the Doom? Well no documents show that the royal family had direct knowledge of the plot, but several princes did indirectly fund the conspiracy. Additionally, a member of the Targaryen government did house the Faceless Men upon their arrival in Valyria and help them acquire visas so they could stay in the country. One of these same Faceless Men would be reported to the government after a Dragon Flight Instructor said he trained these men in flying dragons, but none of them were interested in learning how to land the beasts.
I find it quite alarming that a civilization as grand as Valyria depended on the survival of 14 individuals for their survival. Thats wild!
Man, this theory makes a lot of sense.
it's one of those ones where I started out thinking it was far fetched tinfoil, and as I researched and thought about it... it makes a ton of sense
This makes a lot of sense great vid