I have to say, that this is the only TH-cam channel, dedicated to Folding knives, where the creator, really knows about knives. I sharpen knives for living, both in the company I work for, and at home, since the 90's. I do sharpen knives, since the 80's. If that has any value to you, my opinion is, that this boy also knows how to properly sharpen a knife. I woudn't trust my knife , to many people out there, I would trust him though.
Totally agree. I sharpen as a second job for the past 15 years and it's rare to come across someone that actually knows what their talking about on yt. There are a few others that really know their sh!t but the majority are just micro beveling or doing a mediocre job on a fixed angle set up. Neeves is the real deal though👍
@@stickyedge7113 At last, someone who knows knives!! I'm really glad for both of you guys! I noticed you got some videos, I don't have time right now, but I saved the page to watch later. See you around!
One of the few who understands and tells others. Hardly anyone talks about thickness behind the edge, that is key to most sharpening issues. Great video
I am still amazed at how much I learn from you every week no matter how old I am I still keep learning. I appreciate all of your knowledge and how good of a person you have become and several others in the community thanks for taking your time to share it
This video is one reason this is by far the best channel! Jerad's videos/livestreams always have so much value in them and are always teaching valuable lessons. Great job Jerad!
Excellent video thanks for taking the time to deliver this content and information in a way that's very digestible . Always enjoy this aspect of the hobby althoug fidgeting and aesthetics are a lot of fun to talk about I really enjoy getting into the finer details of sharpening, edge angles, and steel composition . Thanks Neeves
Such a great way to impart knowledge into fellow knife nuts from the beginner to the professional always a great learning experience from someone who is really passionate about what they do. Your love of all sharp things is easy to see as well as the fact that you yourself are continuing to learn and that information is shared with the community. Thanks for the great vid Jerad and keep making sharp things fun and enjoyable
Love these kinds of videos man, I found this vary informational, being that I’ve just started getting into sharpening a few months ago. Keep this kind of stuff coming 👌
Great video man! I'm glad I found your channel. Great content. Very knowledgeable. Actually you're the reason I bought my first Finch. Thank you for that haha
I have the manix 2 xl in cruwear & pu a mirror polished 15 to 17dps convex edge and it's amazing, very tough while being extremely slicey! Absolutely love it
I got damn good at sharpening summer or knives 2022 watching these vids on sharpening in about 6 weeks to get them perfect but after practicing on 1 cheap ones then moving to a good knife was night and day but after 3 knives I started to get the feel for it and learning what steels do better at higher polish and what likes 6-800. It’s a good life skill to master imo . Thanks Jerad . 😊
Just gonna recap briefly: Edge retention is the ability to hold a small radius at the apex. Finer angles and harder steel will keep this apex radius small for longer. Toughness is the steel's ability to resist chipping at the same cross section. Strength is the ability to resist chipping or permanent bending at any cross section. Tough and hard steel can hold a fine edge without blunting or chipping, and so have better edge stability, and so can hold a finer edge doing the same task, and so longer edge retention. To make it easy, just go thin, and if you find it blunts without getting any chips or rolls, make it thinner until you start to see it and then back up if it's faster than the regular blunting. Blunt = more or less same glare along the whole edge in the light, and rolls and chips are bright spots among a sharp edge.
Wow dude. This was awesome. Feel like I'm back in school and should have been taking notes. Absolutely looking forward to more. Your knowledge is truly impressive. At the end you mentioned to keep stropping to maintain your blade. Hopefully your going to discuss when you should just strop instead of going through the whole process of sharpening and stropping. Thanks brother!
Nicely done Jerad if anyone can’t understand this now then I really don’t think they should actually have a bladed object on their person in the first place,, stay safe and healthy J&k and have a beautiful day both😘👍
Dr. J, always impressed with your passion and masterful teaching style. You have an incredible ability to connect with people. Love your work, you keep getting better and better.
looking fwd for Part2. Lots of people think the mirror polished super high grit is the way to go spending a lot of time and material sharpening steels that just might be better if you stop at 600 . Meanwhile thanks for Part 1 ;)
Depends on heat treat, volume of carbides and size of said carbides. So you can't always generalize based on steel name alone if manufacturer A heat treats a knife different than manufacturer B in the same steel. As one of them may have use a high heat temper vs low heat temper of the other company, or maybe company A used a method for more carbides vs company B who focused more on stainlessness instead of the carbides. A lot of times companies dont understand why they chose the heat treatment protocols they use. They just picked the standard one they were offered and didn't do any testing or research into it. They just know its at the hrc they decided. The knife industry has been dumbed down for the mass market to sell lots of knives to people in mass.
One of the misinformations that's spread around, because of the marketing, is making steel look as the only factor on a blade's or an edge performance, when in reality, the main factors that count more, are heat treatment, the grind, the edge geometry and the geometries of the bevels.That's facts Steel is a factor, but it's the base. The heart and soul is the (heat treatment), and the muscles (geometries) I wouldn't mind if my fixed blade was made out of Vanadis 4 Extra or 1095, but I would care a lot (about the quality if the heat treatment (not the hardness the maker advertises (HRC), that doesn't show if the quality was perfect, very good, or poor, that and in the same tinumber doesn't say as much, as people think it says. in the same time, you don't even know if it's acurate) Most people,have gotten so many things wrong about knives. In my opinion that misinformation, begun from TH-camrs and is spread as a brainwash on peoples minds. That's the reason, many will don't understand what I'm saying, and will disagree, responding that TH-camrs know their stuff and I don't and etc... etc.. etc. Well, marketing is all about brainwashing and misinforming, to make people buy, etiher from your shop, or from the delear who paid them to advertise the products.
Microstructure is the word your looking for. And your right! TH-cam influencers are not good. But it's because they dont know anything about heat treatment. Its kept out of the lime light. More focus is onto praising a bill of materials rather than how those materials are under use. More focus is drawn to the action of a knife. Today, knife reviews are an unboxing rather than how a knife performs over a months span cutting things and providing data. That's too much work for a TH-camr who cares only about a bill if material, if they can sell it and the action.
@@tacticalcenter8658 With all the brainwashing, I wonder if they ask their wives, if their eyebrow tweezers can baton!! I've lost my interest on TH-cam knife channels, for all those reasons... It's becoming ridiculous. Glad I'm not the only one who sees that. Stay safe man
Keep up the great videos! They are very informative. It would be awesome to see a community project chart or spreadsheet that goes into steels, angles, finishes, then maybe even different knives/makers under some steels since some makers are known for amazing steel X and another maker has horrible steel Y and they might handle an edge differently than you would expect. If you have a stupid thick knife with a low heat treat and a different thinner knife with a high heat treat both in the same steel, they might get vastly different results with the same finish. It would be an amazing resource for both new sharpeners wondering what is best for their Opinel and experience sharpeners who ran into some super exotic XYZ-123 that they have no experience with.
@@NeevesKnives Every journey starts with a single step, and every project has to start somewhere. It could be started with a general "Steel X generally handles [edge] well but not if it is a softer heat treat" and the like for example. Then if the knife community bands together to fill in various makers, specific knives, oddball heat treats etc it could become a more comprehensive knowledge base. But then you run into the problem of how and where to host it and keep it maintained. I think it would be cool if in the future you watch a sharpening video and the person brings up the "Knife Sharpeners Compendium" and what it says about that particular knife or steel before they decide what kind of edge to put on it.
Toughness probably isn't a good term to describe a wider profile as opposed to a narrow one as it is a technically defined property of the material itself.
I've sharpen at low angle maybe 16 degrees one of my old kershaw knives which is in 8cr13mov and didn't expect that the edge will stay sharp longer.Respect to you Neeves! Could you make a video for the Elmax steel and sharpening it?
Great video sir... I think it is hard to explain this material good.... Looking forward to the what steel to what grit video... I sharpen al my knives to a mirror finish but they are MY knives....and i like how it looks...😁 I sharpen some knives for friends mostly kithen knives and always on a stone... And befor i go out i always strob my knive i take with me...
When they say this steel does best w a 600 grit edge a toothy edge, do u still hone after sharpening. To debur ? Or smooth out the toothy edge so not too uneven?
Looking forward to the grit to finish different steels. Thanks for the info. I have been doing a 20 degree on almost all my knives as of late and I like it. The only knives I might go less in are D2, 14C28N, especially by Ruike and then super steels. Picked up the Manix 2 in SPY27 and I think it comes real close to 17 degrees from the factory. Like you say, it depends on what you use your knife for. I'm seeing lots of M390 not even hitting the 60HRC. That worries me at the lower angles. What are your thoughts on lower HRC and super steels?
Spyderco does a really good job on the hrc, and most come with a 15° then 25° micro bevel, I believe it's 25 or so. But I'm sure some can vary. But yes if it's on the steel is softer a lower angle might not have great stability through tough use but the geometry plays a huge part, thicker blades behind the edge will have more meat to be stable at lower angles, also the difference in flat or hollow can play a part. As far as m390 goes if it's very thin and soft I wouldn't go to low 17 to 20 should be a good angle for most. But if it's thicker bte then you can drop it a bit more to like 15° but if you notice issues you can always add a quick micro bevel
Most m390 isn't worth the extra costs unless it's using the correct heat treatment and hrc. Hrc alone won't improve a protocol that's not idea for m390. Most companies just want to sell you a bill of materials. They dont realize how different austenitizing temps and temper temps, quenching methods etc make a huge difference in the performance of m390. They just say the hrc is in spec.
I have a bench made CLA 154 cm what would the best edge be for this knife?? I really only use it for cutting boxes and the little things around the house??
You got any tips for keeping the knife's tip sharp? I'm a baler worker and typically have to punch holes through the back of the compactors to empty them out, after a while it really does a number on my knife.
Yeah get a Stout tanto, I'd go with something from COLD steel most likely, if not make sure it's got a thick Stout spine, it's going to be about the blades geometry more than anything
Sounds like you need better geometry at the tip. A steel and heat treat with better stability would also help. And lastly, if you look at the edge under a microscope or a loup after the edge damage. That edge will have craters, flat spots, bends etc... When you sharpen that damage without first removing said damage, your just building that new apex on all that fatigue damaged edge. That makes your apex weak. Sure it gets sharp, but the foundation isn't strong as it could be. It would be wise to run the whole edge on a stone to dull it, take off the apex completely. All that damage should be gone. Then put a new apex on the blade. This way you don't bur over fatigue steel and your edges will last longer. Also check out Joe X on TH-cam. He has stabbing tests that should help you decide on a knife that will perform in the way you want.
To me the term edge retention is a combination of toughness, wear resistance and edge stability since they are the 3 ways (there's also corrosion but that takes way too long to notice, years of sitting in a drawer to notice a tiny change in sharpness so I don't consider it) an apex gets damaged. What most people refer to as edge retention is wear resistance. Cutting an abrasive material which wears away at the edge apex through abrasive wear. It could be just semantics and the words don't matter that much since most people understand what it's referring to anyway. Most people think of edge retention is how long a knife can cut for.
I would say toughness, hardness, and wear resistance. edge stability is usually a good combo of the first two. Toughness prevents chipping and hardness prevents permanent bending.
@@mikafoxx2717 edge stability is partially that but it has more to do with grain structure and carbide size. That's why Aeb-l has amazing edge stability, it's very fine grained and has super fine carbides, which allows it's apex to withstand lateral loads, without breaking of at the carbide boundaries. Cliff Stamp (RIP) had a bunch of videos talking about it with great visuals. M390 at 64hrc will have high hardness but it won't have high edge stability. To me, edge stability is the strength of the apex to resist deformation by lateral and frontal loads (more lateral). It affects how thin you can grind a knife and how low of an angle it can hold without deformation.
@@D00MTR33 It's sad I didn't find out about Cliff Stamp until after his passing. Knife Grinders Australia did test m390 and the ideal angle for it was the same as a Victorinox kitchen knife at significantly lower hardness. D2 did even worse for edge stability. I'm hoping to get into making knives and hoping I can get some great hardness and fine grain. I think Larrin has taken some of Cliff's advice when it comes to sharpen thin, and if you get chipping or bending, increase it a degree or two. I don't believe in having a pocket knife ground for brick breaking. That's why you bring more than one. I like my general carry to be very slicey, and at worst I can resharpen it. 12c27, 14c28n, and 1095 opinel, mora, and more are my usual.. if I want supersteel I'll probably do it myself at some point, and choose one with good edge stability like cru-wear.
Can you recommend a sharpening jig that I could use to help me make sharpening easier?( Trying to sharpen mass produced D2 steel)Like the Spyderco one but its kind of expensive(80.00). I've learned alot from your channel thanks.
Have you tried checking out the work sharp Precision or the Ken Onion? I just recently bought the Precision cus the wasn't must I need to fiddle with and straight forward to use.
Use diamond's for d2. It has a high volume of chromium carbides. 80 is too expensive for d2 steel. The performance is often like 8cr13mov but really hard to sharpen for most people. Something like a A 300, 400, 600 grit progression. Cheap Chinese diamond's will lie about the grit values, so stick to brand names. You can get edge pro sharpening stones and just use them to sharpen by hand as they are cheaper than buying larger bench sized stones. If diamond is too expensive for you, you can try edge pro stones in silicon carbide. Not as hard as diamond, but should work fine on d2. If you just want to experiment, harbor freight sells some cheap diamond sharpening plates. These are terrible but they will sharpen things. I have the ken onion work sharp, and it won't work well on d2. Only worked when I got the diamond belts and they wore out after two knives. Not worth it for d2.
Bang! According to the table in the beginning of this video, 154cm and 440c are the same (toughness, edge retention, etc). I used 440c (from Ganzo), but I never used 154cm (looking at Kizer’s). If it’s going to be the same experience for me? And 14c28n has really great toughness. I’m still wondering what is going to be better for cutting papers, woods, plastics, cardboard etc, CIVIVI’s sandvik or Kizer’s 154cm? I don’t mind to slide a knife on lansky dogbone couple of times per week.
So alot of them are not accurate as far as edge retention goes, that's why the people doing controlled cut tests are so valuable, the edge retention tests come from catra which we have found out is not reliable for many many reasons
I have a plethora of systems including that one. I dont use it at all anymore. I normally set my edge bevels with an edge pro or hapstone table system as its very versatile system for all blade types. Then just sharpen manually with edge pro stones or bench stones whenever I need to Sharpen again. The systems dont make things easy. A lot of learning needs to be done still. Most people think these systems make life easier but that's not entirely true. The Ken onion system will only provide convex edges and you have very little selection of belt choices for abrasives.
I think it's a great system for cheaper kitchen knives, machetes, or other large fixed blades, it's also great for mods or doing blade repairs, but I personally wouldn't use it on good folders, if it's a cheap one that's fine with practice, but the edges are just OK and don't compare to high quality edges if that's what you want
Diamond, I still recommend having Ceramic stones eventually, have a Ceramic Rod and a plate. But if your starting out Diamond plates are more valuable and a strop
15-17° for slicing with a knife that is thin behind the edge. 18-20° for general tasks. 25° for chopping etc. This all varies depending on many factors like steel composition, geometry, v or convex, and heat treat (Microstructure and hrc) of said steel composition.
I don't think you mentioned hollow ground which stays thinner behind the edge further than the others. So... less durability, but better edge retention and easier to sharpen?
I think this video focused more on the apex than behind the edge bevels. But that's generally correct from what you've said. I wouldn't always say less durable because many factors are at play, but the thinner it gets its likely to be less durable in some steels/heat treatments.
@@NeevesKnives I’m surprised you suggest to stop there. I’ll try it next time. This limited edition Barrage is one without the plunge grind. I have polished up to 4000 grit with my edge pro, but the edge folds over easily at 18.5 Thanks for the tip(s)
@@Muskyfishn84 I suggest to stop there because softer m390 tends to lose its bite quickly with a polished edge, so a medium grit edge will have a longer lasting performance as far as edge bite goes, instead of having a slick edge that slips off of things, if your edge is rolling with that angle then the steel probably has an issue because it shouldnt under normal use, unless you did something with it that pervoked that. but that is most likely what i would do , if you dont care about edge bite lasting then go with a higher grit, i personally wouldnt go over 1200 grit pn that one but you can and then see how well it works out
Toughness is a MATERIAL'S ability to take impact. Edge retention is considerably more related to abrasion resistance than to toughness. You're right about one thing for sure. It depends. Maybe we should just stick with that.
@@NeevesKnives No. I tried to explain this on another video the other day. Tohghness is a material property, specifically, resistance to fracture. It is not a function of geometric properties. Strength is a function of both material properties and geometric properties and is resistance to deformation. An edge can fail by means other than fracture and because of that fact, toughness is simply not the right descriptor. The proper term is strength.
@@NeevesKnives Im not trying to be a dick. I've just been working to create an understanding of these factors in the sharpening industry for about a decade.
@@MrMZaccone I'm not a decade into this but I have been doing it for a long time, and also run a Sharpening service that's highly regarded, I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything and don't pretend to know everything, I also understand that I'm running a TH-cam channel speaking to people that don't understand and are trying to, I teach Sharpening and run a Sharpening service, and after teaching Sharpening I'm trying my best to make someone understand that might not know the lingo etc.. you could be the smartest guy ever and know far more than me I don't know, people come in to the comments constantly with ridiculous things that clearly don't understand yet speak as if they do hundreds of times a day. Which is fine I have a channel so it gives people the ability to so it makes it easy for people, but I don't have that same privilege to do to them. Not that I expect to, but it's easy for people to say something about what you did or how you said or how something looked sounded etc.. I stand by what I said in the video I think I explained it very well for people that don't understand. And on Sunday I will be teaching them Sharpening live, but I appreciate the constructive criticism when it's constructive.
@@NeevesKnives Part of my problem is that I was raised by an engineer. Terminology is a big part of communication in any field. I'm impressed with your freehand sharpening. The numbers you can get on the BESS scale prove you have a quality process. I don't sharpen freehand any more if I can help it because using mechanical help, I can do better and it's how I make some of my living. And I don't mean better than you, I mean better than myself. My scores on the BESS scale are consistently sub 100 and depending on materials, sometimes sub 50. I don't teach sharpening but I do teach and I do my best to use terminology that is not only internally consistent but consistent with whatever aspect of science I'm using to continually Improve. I'd like to think I'm being constructive but we first have to be speaking the same language. No offense meant.
yes. but a finer angle will have less volume of material behind it by distance up the blade and will therefore blunten faster over time. it will also be finer and weaker making it more prone to rolling and chipping. if all your planning to do is cut clingwrap you could have a point but who uses a knife only on very soft fine materials.
If you watched my video I clearly took a knife with a steel that's not tough with a low angle and smacked it on steel with very little damage, I took another with a low angle with a tough steel with no damage. As I said you have to use what works for you, most of the steels I use work great with low angles. But I could ask you why are you trying to cut things with a knife that are supposed to be cut with a saw. Stop trying to cut metal with your folding knife, use a utility blade or a saw
Something like delta 3v or magnacut are good examples of steel with good toughness and edge stability. The fine edge would take impact better than most. Benchmade 3v started out soft. So on impact it would dent. So heat treat is important also and can't generalize solely on steel names alone. Something like s110v could take a fine edge but chip on impact, making it more of a slicer than an all around task knife. A wider angle will help improve that on s110v to an extent. Lots of variables.
There's reputable ones that have a great reputation for doing consistent heat treatments and checking them constantly as far as the knife makers go, as far as the public buying them, there's companies that use those heat treaters, or you can look to the community who has done tests for years to find out who's doing the best work
A quick vote: On an edc knife, you can choose maxamet or AEB-L? You have to choose edge retention or toughness, can't choose something in between, discuss below⬇
I too would pick 14c28n. Though aebl is great for what it does. 14c28n can be brittle in the geometry and heat treatment that some mass production companies use. But it can also be tough when the company knows what they are doing. I've seen some busted tips on Kershaw and we knives 14c28n while other brands didn't. Geometry and heat treat play a roll in all of that. Mora is a great example.
@@tacticalcenter8658 I totally agree. It's even crazier that 14c is a "budget" steel. On an edc knife, I would honestly pick it over just about any other steel.
I have endured the first 4 mins of your video and I must say, you do not know what you are talking about. You mixed up all the terminology and theory. It is amazing you are courageous enough to make a video while knowing so little about what you are talking about.
I explained it very well imo, and of course I'm trying to explain it in great detail to people that don't understand terminology to begin with. People that have zero understanding or very limited. Tell me where you think I was wrong after watching the whole video
I just don't get why knife nerds conflate "edge retention" with "wear resistance". Right around the 1:45 mark you get it right, but then sort of back off on your correct statement. Toughness plays a HUGE role in "edge retention", but it has nothing to do with "wear resistance". I don't know why it is so hard, after all these years, that knife nerds (I put myself in that category, it's a compliment), even the PhD ones, just cannot get the two terms (WR vs ER) separated when talking about knife steel. I am on a mission to correct this nonsense. I see it all over the web, and even in the new books. There is a massive massive massive difference between "edge retention" and "wear resistance", but all too often someone will say something like "ZDP has amazing edge retention". Try taking a knife in ZDP-189, hardened and tempered to it's usual 66-67HRC, and try processing a whitetail deer, for example. Tell me, after processing that whole deer, that ZDP-189 has amazing "edge retention". Not happening. But use that same steel/knife/heat treat while cutting food in kitchen, then yeah, it will likely have amazing "Edge retention". It has very very little toughness, so contact with bone, or a hard surface, will likely chip that edge. ZDP being a great example of this, much like D2. There are a handful of factors that come together for a steel to have what we would call great "edge retention". Wear resistance is one, hardenss is another (also contributes to wear resistance, not just the carbides in the steel), toughness the resistance to fracture is another, even corrosion resistance is another factor to some small degree. Apex stability is the ability to resist lateral stress, which is in a way part of edge retention, but sort of a property on its own. I won't get into geometry, behind the edge thickness, edge angle, micron finish, etc.....those are variables the knife owner/user can control. But this business of "wear resistance" is the same as "edge retention" needs to die a death.
Another myth. Microbevels make the edge stronger, tougher etc. Nope, that's not true, because they are still flat "v" edges. If you want to reinforce an edge, convex the edge bevel or raise it's angle or both. You see them only on factory made mass produced knives, because it's the fastest and cheapest way, to put an edge on knife.
It is true, because a micro bevel is at a much higher angle and allows the behind the apex to be thicker, instead of the apex being 15° its at 25° and I spoke about convexing as well
Convex edges have their uses. Especially in feather sticking and a variety of other uses like processing animals etc. They are not without cons though.
I have to say, that this is the only TH-cam channel, dedicated to Folding knives, where the creator, really knows about knives. I sharpen knives for living, both in the company I work for, and at home, since the 90's. I do sharpen knives, since the 80's. If that has any value to you, my opinion is, that this boy also knows how to properly sharpen a knife. I woudn't trust my knife , to many people out there, I would trust him though.
Totally agree. I sharpen as a second job for the past 15 years and it's rare to come across someone that actually knows what their talking about on yt. There are a few others that really know their sh!t but the majority are just micro beveling or doing a mediocre job on a fixed angle set up. Neeves is the real deal though👍
@@stickyedge7113 At last, someone who knows knives!! I'm really glad for both of you guys!
I noticed you got some videos, I don't have time right now, but I saved the page to watch later. See you around!
@@greekveteran2715 thanks man👍. It's just a few shorts with a couple different angles/grits. Nothing special
👊 thank you guys
One of the few who understands and tells others. Hardly anyone talks about thickness behind the edge, that is key to most sharpening issues. Great video
I am still amazed at how much I learn from you every week no matter how old I am I still keep learning. I appreciate all of your knowledge and how good of a person you have become and several others in the community thanks for taking your time to share it
This video is one reason this is by far the best channel! Jerad's videos/livestreams always have so much value in them and are always teaching valuable lessons. Great job Jerad!
Excellent video thanks for taking the time to deliver this content and information in a way that's very digestible . Always enjoy this aspect of the hobby althoug fidgeting and aesthetics are a lot of fun to talk about I really enjoy getting into the finer details of sharpening, edge angles, and steel composition . Thanks Neeves
Such a great way to impart knowledge into fellow knife nuts from the beginner to the professional always a great learning experience from someone who is really passionate about what they do. Your love of all sharp things is easy to see as well as the fact that you yourself are continuing to learn and that information is shared with the community. Thanks for the great vid Jerad and keep making sharp things fun and enjoyable
This stuff can get pretty soupy. Well done, clear and informative.
You've really explained it in really simple, easy to digest format and demostrate in the video. Great work
Great video man. So informative. Keep them coming.
Love these kinds of videos man, I found this vary informational, being that I’ve just started getting into sharpening a few months ago. Keep this kind of stuff coming 👌
👊
Awesome video and great description of edges.
Lots of great info. Love the video. Thank you so much.
Glad to see someone else repping the Mega Manix!
Great video man! I'm glad I found your channel. Great content. Very knowledgeable. Actually you're the reason I bought my first Finch. Thank you for that haha
I have the manix 2 xl in cruwear & pu a mirror polished 15 to 17dps convex edge and it's amazing, very tough while being extremely slicey! Absolutely love it
I got damn good at sharpening summer or knives 2022 watching these vids on sharpening in about 6 weeks to get them perfect but after practicing on 1 cheap ones then moving to a good knife was night and day but after 3 knives I started to get the feel for it and learning what steels do better at higher polish and what likes 6-800. It’s a good life skill to master imo . Thanks Jerad . 😊
One more great video to add to the books!! Thanks Brother for sharing your knowledge. Cheers! 🍻👍🇺🇸🤙🇺🇸✌️
I changed my 940 in CPM M4 to 17 deg per side. Several of my knives are at 20 deg per side. Always learn something new watching your channel Jared
Very interesting!!! I'll watch the follow up! 🌟
Great job jared great upload loved it bud
Great video as always!
Just gonna recap briefly:
Edge retention is the ability to hold a small radius at the apex.
Finer angles and harder steel will keep this apex radius small for longer.
Toughness is the steel's ability to resist chipping at the same cross section.
Strength is the ability to resist chipping or permanent bending at any cross section.
Tough and hard steel can hold a fine edge without blunting or chipping, and so have better edge stability, and so can hold a finer edge doing the same task, and so longer edge retention.
To make it easy, just go thin, and if you find it blunts without getting any chips or rolls, make it thinner until you start to see it and then back up if it's faster than the regular blunting.
Blunt = more or less same glare along the whole edge in the light, and rolls and chips are bright spots among a sharp edge.
Fantastic vid Bud, right on the mark.😁👌⚔️
BANG 💥
Intro never gets old.
Bang! Great video!! ❤
Good stuff, my man.
Great break down brother 👏
My stones came in this week 👍
Nice! Enjoy
Wow dude. This was awesome. Feel like I'm back in school and should have been taking notes. Absolutely looking forward to more. Your knowledge is truly impressive. At the end you mentioned to keep stropping to maintain your blade. Hopefully your going to discuss when you should just strop instead of going through the whole process of sharpening and stropping. Thanks brother!
Yes I have many videos and shorts on this subject, Im never to far away from another one
@@NeevesKnives I figured as much. Appreciate it!
I do everything 20 degrees and never had problems traveling that route.
Well done!
Nicely done Jerad if anyone can’t understand this now then I really don’t think they should actually have a bladed object on their person in the first place,, stay safe and healthy J&k and have a beautiful day both😘👍
👊
Awesome video thanks
Dr. J, always impressed with your passion and masterful teaching style. You have an incredible ability to connect with people. Love your work, you keep getting better and better.
Great video though learned alot
Cool video thanks.
looking fwd for Part2. Lots of people think the mirror polished super high grit is the way to go spending a lot of time and material sharpening steels that just might be better if you stop at 600 . Meanwhile thanks for Part 1 ;)
Depends on heat treat, volume of carbides and size of said carbides. So you can't always generalize based on steel name alone if manufacturer A heat treats a knife different than manufacturer B in the same steel. As one of them may have use a high heat temper vs low heat temper of the other company, or maybe company A used a method for more carbides vs company B who focused more on stainlessness instead of the carbides. A lot of times companies dont understand why they chose the heat treatment protocols they use. They just picked the standard one they were offered and didn't do any testing or research into it. They just know its at the hrc they decided. The knife industry has been dumbed down for the mass market to sell lots of knives to people in mass.
One of the misinformations that's spread around, because of the marketing, is making steel look as the only factor on a blade's or an edge performance, when in reality, the main factors that count more, are heat treatment, the grind, the edge geometry and the geometries of the bevels.That's facts
Steel is a factor, but it's the base. The heart and soul is the (heat treatment), and the muscles (geometries)
I wouldn't mind if my fixed blade was made out of Vanadis 4 Extra or 1095, but I would care a lot (about the quality if the heat treatment (not the hardness the maker advertises (HRC), that doesn't show if the quality was perfect, very good, or poor, that and in the same tinumber doesn't say as much, as people think it says. in the same time, you don't even know if it's acurate)
Most people,have gotten so many things wrong about knives. In my opinion that misinformation, begun from TH-camrs and is spread as a brainwash on peoples minds. That's the reason, many will don't understand what I'm saying, and will disagree, responding that TH-camrs know their stuff and I don't and etc... etc.. etc. Well, marketing is all about brainwashing and misinforming, to make people buy, etiher from your shop, or from the delear who paid them to advertise the products.
Absolutely
Microstructure is the word your looking for. And your right! TH-cam influencers are not good. But it's because they dont know anything about heat treatment. Its kept out of the lime light. More focus is onto praising a bill of materials rather than how those materials are under use. More focus is drawn to the action of a knife. Today, knife reviews are an unboxing rather than how a knife performs over a months span cutting things and providing data. That's too much work for a TH-camr who cares only about a bill if material, if they can sell it and the action.
@@tacticalcenter8658 With all the brainwashing, I wonder if they ask their wives, if their eyebrow tweezers can baton!! I've lost my interest on TH-cam knife channels, for all those reasons... It's becoming ridiculous. Glad I'm not the only one who sees that. Stay safe man
Thank you! 💯🦾
Well done
Did you ever make a video on what angles certain steels like most
Keep up the great videos! They are very informative. It would be awesome to see a community project chart or spreadsheet that goes into steels, angles, finishes, then maybe even different knives/makers under some steels since some makers are known for amazing steel X and another maker has horrible steel Y and they might handle an edge differently than you would expect. If you have a stupid thick knife with a low heat treat and a different thinner knife with a high heat treat both in the same steel, they might get vastly different results with the same finish.
It would be an amazing resource for both new sharpeners wondering what is best for their Opinel and experience sharpeners who ran into some super exotic XYZ-123 that they have no experience with.
Yeah that's the difficulty, is there's so many different geometries and heat treatments
@@NeevesKnives Every journey starts with a single step, and every project has to start somewhere. It could be started with a general "Steel X generally handles [edge] well but not if it is a softer heat treat" and the like for example. Then if the knife community bands together to fill in various makers, specific knives, oddball heat treats etc it could become a more comprehensive knowledge base. But then you run into the problem of how and where to host it and keep it maintained.
I think it would be cool if in the future you watch a sharpening video and the person brings up the "Knife Sharpeners Compendium" and what it says about that particular knife or steel before they decide what kind of edge to put on it.
Toughness probably isn't a good term to describe a wider profile as opposed to a narrow one as it is a technically defined property of the material itself.
Honestly, I’d pay for like a patreon master class about this.
🔥🔥🔥✌🏻
I've sharpen at low angle maybe 16 degrees one of my old kershaw knives which is in 8cr13mov and didn't expect that the edge will stay sharp longer.Respect to you Neeves!
Could you make a video for the Elmax steel and sharpening it?
I will see what I can put together, I do have a Video on steels where I speak about most of the steels jfyi, the Thumbnail is a list of steels
Great video sir...
I think it is hard to explain this material good....
Looking forward to the what steel to what grit video...
I sharpen al my knives to a mirror finish but they are MY knives....and i like how it looks...😁
I sharpen some knives for friends mostly kithen knives and always on a stone...
And befor i go out i always strob my knive i take with me...
👊 Bang
When they say this steel does best w a 600 grit edge a toothy edge, do u still hone after sharpening. To debur ? Or smooth out the toothy edge so not too uneven?
Looking forward to the grit to finish different steels. Thanks for the info.
I have been doing a 20 degree on almost all my knives as of late and I like it.
The only knives I might go less in are D2, 14C28N, especially by Ruike and then super steels.
Picked up the Manix 2 in SPY27 and I think it comes real close to 17 degrees from the factory.
Like you say, it depends on what you use your knife for.
I'm seeing lots of M390 not even hitting the 60HRC. That worries me at the lower angles. What are your thoughts on lower HRC and super steels?
Spyderco does a really good job on the hrc, and most come with a 15° then 25° micro bevel, I believe it's 25 or so. But I'm sure some can vary. But yes if it's on the steel is softer a lower angle might not have great stability through tough use but the geometry plays a huge part, thicker blades behind the edge will have more meat to be stable at lower angles, also the difference in flat or hollow can play a part. As far as m390 goes if it's very thin and soft I wouldn't go to low 17 to 20 should be a good angle for most. But if it's thicker bte then you can drop it a bit more to like 15° but if you notice issues you can always add a quick micro bevel
@@NeevesKnives you the man!! Thanks Jared
Most m390 isn't worth the extra costs unless it's using the correct heat treatment and hrc. Hrc alone won't improve a protocol that's not idea for m390. Most companies just want to sell you a bill of materials. They dont realize how different austenitizing temps and temper temps, quenching methods etc make a huge difference in the performance of m390. They just say the hrc is in spec.
@@tacticalcenter8658 very true
srsly u should make some asmr conent for knifes, you got a good voice for it =D
edges 101.... excelent video....
I have a bench made CLA 154 cm what would the best edge be for this knife?? I really only use it for cutting boxes and the little things around the house??
I'm not sure how thick it is behind the edge, but I'd go with 600 grit at 17° per side
You got any tips for keeping the knife's tip sharp? I'm a baler worker and typically have to punch holes through the back of the compactors to empty them out, after a while it really does a number on my knife.
Definitely get a tanto blade for that
Yeah get a Stout tanto, I'd go with something from COLD steel most likely, if not make sure it's got a thick Stout spine, it's going to be about the blades geometry more than anything
Sounds like you need better geometry at the tip. A steel and heat treat with better stability would also help.
And lastly, if you look at the edge under a microscope or a loup after the edge damage. That edge will have craters, flat spots, bends etc... When you sharpen that damage without first removing said damage, your just building that new apex on all that fatigue damaged edge. That makes your apex weak. Sure it gets sharp, but the foundation isn't strong as it could be.
It would be wise to run the whole edge on a stone to dull it, take off the apex completely. All that damage should be gone. Then put a new apex on the blade. This way you don't bur over fatigue steel and your edges will last longer.
Also check out Joe X on TH-cam. He has stabbing tests that should help you decide on a knife that will perform in the way you want.
I’m almost getting there with my knife knowledge but it takes a bit of rewatching.
Yes it does
Where can i get a stroft
I didn't think this needed an in-depth dive, but if you say people need it go for it.
There's a lot of new people in the community, and being the awesome community we are I think it's good to help them better understand
Utility blades are apexed at a significantly higher angle than their main bevel. They are essentially micro-beveled. There's a reason for this.
To me the term edge retention is a combination of toughness, wear resistance and edge stability since they are the 3 ways (there's also corrosion but that takes way too long to notice, years of sitting in a drawer to notice a tiny change in sharpness so I don't consider it) an apex gets damaged. What most people refer to as edge retention is wear resistance. Cutting an abrasive material which wears away at the edge apex through abrasive wear.
It could be just semantics and the words don't matter that much since most people understand what it's referring to anyway. Most people think of edge retention is how long a knife can cut for.
I would say toughness, hardness, and wear resistance. edge stability is usually a good combo of the first two. Toughness prevents chipping and hardness prevents permanent bending.
@@mikafoxx2717 edge stability is partially that but it has more to do with grain structure and carbide size. That's why Aeb-l has amazing edge stability, it's very fine grained and has super fine carbides, which allows it's apex to withstand lateral loads, without breaking of at the carbide boundaries.
Cliff Stamp (RIP) had a bunch of videos talking about it with great visuals.
M390 at 64hrc will have high hardness but it won't have high edge stability.
To me, edge stability is the strength of the apex to resist deformation by lateral and frontal loads (more lateral). It affects how thin you can grind a knife and how low of an angle it can hold without deformation.
@@D00MTR33 It's sad I didn't find out about Cliff Stamp until after his passing. Knife Grinders Australia did test m390 and the ideal angle for it was the same as a Victorinox kitchen knife at significantly lower hardness. D2 did even worse for edge stability. I'm hoping to get into making knives and hoping I can get some great hardness and fine grain. I think Larrin has taken some of Cliff's advice when it comes to sharpen thin, and if you get chipping or bending, increase it a degree or two. I don't believe in having a pocket knife ground for brick breaking. That's why you bring more than one. I like my general carry to be very slicey, and at worst I can resharpen it. 12c27, 14c28n, and 1095 opinel, mora, and more are my usual.. if I want supersteel I'll probably do it myself at some point, and choose one with good edge stability like cru-wear.
I can’t watch it. Says no stream tap to retry.
Can you recommend a sharpening jig that I could use to help me make sharpening easier?( Trying to sharpen mass produced D2 steel)Like the Spyderco one but its kind of expensive(80.00). I've learned alot from your channel thanks.
Have you tried checking out the work sharp Precision or the Ken Onion?
I just recently bought the Precision cus the wasn't must I need to fiddle with and straight forward to use.
Use diamond's for d2. It has a high volume of chromium carbides. 80 is too expensive for d2 steel. The performance is often like 8cr13mov but really hard to sharpen for most people. Something like a A 300, 400, 600 grit progression. Cheap Chinese diamond's will lie about the grit values, so stick to brand names. You can get edge pro sharpening stones and just use them to sharpen by hand as they are cheaper than buying larger bench sized stones.
If diamond is too expensive for you, you can try edge pro stones in silicon carbide. Not as hard as diamond, but should work fine on d2. If you just want to experiment, harbor freight sells some cheap diamond sharpening plates. These are terrible but they will sharpen things.
I have the ken onion work sharp, and it won't work well on d2. Only worked when I got the diamond belts and they wore out after two knives. Not worth it for d2.
Bang!
According to the table in the beginning of this video, 154cm and 440c are the same (toughness, edge retention, etc). I used 440c (from Ganzo), but I never used 154cm (looking at Kizer’s). If it’s going to be the same experience for me?
And 14c28n has really great toughness. I’m still wondering what is going to be better for cutting papers, woods, plastics, cardboard etc, CIVIVI’s sandvik or Kizer’s 154cm?
I don’t mind to slide a knife on lansky dogbone couple of times per week.
So alot of them are not accurate as far as edge retention goes, that's why the people doing controlled cut tests are so valuable, the edge retention tests come from catra which we have found out is not reliable for many many reasons
@@NeevesKnives I believe your experience, and wanted to hear your thoughts about 154cm and sandvik according to your experience.
Thanks!
Jared, I’ve got that WorkSharp Ken Onion Edition….how would you rate that for a sharpening setup?
I have a plethora of systems including that one. I dont use it at all anymore. I normally set my edge bevels with an edge pro or hapstone table system as its very versatile system for all blade types. Then just sharpen manually with edge pro stones or bench stones whenever I need to Sharpen again. The systems dont make things easy. A lot of learning needs to be done still. Most people think these systems make life easier but that's not entirely true.
The Ken onion system will only provide convex edges and you have very little selection of belt choices for abrasives.
I think it's a great system for cheaper kitchen knives, machetes, or other large fixed blades, it's also great for mods or doing blade repairs, but I personally wouldn't use it on good folders, if it's a cheap one that's fine with practice, but the edges are just OK and don't compare to high quality edges if that's what you want
Would you recommend diamond plates or ceramic plates for sharpening?
Diamond, I still recommend having Ceramic stones eventually, have a Ceramic Rod and a plate. But if your starting out Diamond plates are more valuable and a strop
@@NeevesKnives thanks!
Very informative video. Lets say I have been given a knife, how do I know how good the quality is?
Well looking at its quality can give you an idea, also who makes it and what's their reputation of making quality knives.
Its probably not that good if someone gave it to you. Just being honest.
@@tacticalcenter8658 Lol. Sounds about right
So neeves, if you could choose one edge angle for light use/edc what would it be?
18°-20°
@@knifeaddict1014 thanks, that's what I figured
15-17° for slicing with a knife that is thin behind the edge. 18-20° for general tasks. 25° for chopping etc.
This all varies depending on many factors like steel composition, geometry, v or convex, and heat treat (Microstructure and hrc) of said steel composition.
I don't think you mentioned hollow ground which stays thinner behind the edge further than the others. So... less durability, but better edge retention and easier to sharpen?
I think this video focused more on the apex than behind the edge bevels. But that's generally correct from what you've said. I wouldn't always say less durable because many factors are at play, but the thinner it gets its likely to be less durable in some steels/heat treatments.
This was educational. You should of had kara draw the visuals while you do the commentary.
That would have been good
Preferred angle and grit for a Benchmade 581 in m390?
I personally wouldn't polish benchmades m390, because the plunge grind gets in the way I'd go with 17° per side at 600 grit
@@NeevesKnives I’m surprised you suggest to stop there. I’ll try it next time. This limited edition Barrage is one without the plunge grind.
I have polished up to 4000 grit with my edge pro, but the edge folds over easily at 18.5
Thanks for the tip(s)
@@Muskyfishn84 I suggest to stop there because softer m390 tends to lose its bite quickly with a polished edge, so a medium grit edge will have a longer lasting performance as far as edge bite goes, instead of having a slick edge that slips off of things, if your edge is rolling with that angle then the steel probably has an issue because it shouldnt under normal use, unless you did something with it that pervoked that. but that is most likely what i would do , if you dont care about edge bite lasting then go with a higher grit, i personally wouldnt go over 1200 grit pn that one but you can and then see how well it works out
I think I might have too many knives. I can't find my manix xl.
Well that sucks, maybe it's the one I'm flipping 😕
@@NeevesKnives it can't be too far, I live in a 10'x10'🤣
Toughness is a MATERIAL'S ability to take impact. Edge retention is considerably more related to abrasion resistance than to toughness. You're right about one thing for sure. It depends. Maybe we should just stick with that.
I'm not sure exactly how to take this comment but both were exactly how I explained it.
@@NeevesKnives No. I tried to explain this on another video the other day. Tohghness is a material property, specifically, resistance to fracture. It is not a function of geometric properties. Strength is a function of both material properties and geometric properties and is resistance to deformation. An edge can fail by means other than fracture and because of that fact, toughness is simply not the right descriptor. The proper term is strength.
@@NeevesKnives Im not trying to be a dick. I've just been working to create an understanding of these factors in the sharpening industry for about a decade.
@@MrMZaccone I'm not a decade into this but I have been doing it for a long time, and also run a Sharpening service that's highly regarded, I'm not trying to toot my own horn or anything and don't pretend to know everything, I also understand that I'm running a TH-cam channel speaking to people that don't understand and are trying to, I teach Sharpening and run a Sharpening service, and after teaching Sharpening I'm trying my best to make someone understand that might not know the lingo etc.. you could be the smartest guy ever and know far more than me I don't know, people come in to the comments constantly with ridiculous things that clearly don't understand yet speak as if they do hundreds of times a day. Which is fine I have a channel so it gives people the ability to so it makes it easy for people, but I don't have that same privilege to do to them. Not that I expect to, but it's easy for people to say something about what you did or how you said or how something looked sounded etc.. I stand by what I said in the video I think I explained it very well for people that don't understand. And on Sunday I will be teaching them Sharpening live, but I appreciate the constructive criticism when it's constructive.
@@NeevesKnives Part of my problem is that I was raised by an engineer. Terminology is a big part of communication in any field. I'm impressed with your freehand sharpening. The numbers you can get on the BESS scale prove you have a quality process. I don't sharpen freehand any more if I can help it because using mechanical help, I can do better and it's how I make some of my living. And I don't mean better than you, I mean better than myself. My scores on the BESS scale are consistently sub 100 and depending on materials, sometimes sub 50. I don't teach sharpening but I do teach and I do my best to use terminology that is not only internally consistent but consistent with whatever aspect of science I'm using to continually Improve. I'd like to think I'm being constructive but we first have to be speaking the same language. No offense meant.
You guys should also check out ROLLSHAMBO EDC on TH-cam.
Wow I need help with sharpening
Your in the right place
yes. but a finer angle will have less volume of material behind it by distance up the blade and will therefore blunten faster over time. it will also be finer and weaker making it more prone to rolling and chipping. if all your planning to do is cut clingwrap you could have a point but who uses a knife only on very soft fine materials.
If you watched my video I clearly took a knife with a steel that's not tough with a low angle and smacked it on steel with very little damage, I took another with a low angle with a tough steel with no damage. As I said you have to use what works for you, most of the steels I use work great with low angles. But I could ask you why are you trying to cut things with a knife that are supposed to be cut with a saw. Stop trying to cut metal with your folding knife, use a utility blade or a saw
Something like delta 3v or magnacut are good examples of steel with good toughness and edge stability. The fine edge would take impact better than most.
Benchmade 3v started out soft. So on impact it would dent. So heat treat is important also and can't generalize solely on steel names alone.
Something like s110v could take a fine edge but chip on impact, making it more of a slicer than an all around task knife. A wider angle will help improve that on s110v to an extent.
Lots of variables.
Love to watch but no video is showing up, it just says no stream.
WHAT
HOWABOUT NOW
What knife was that kizer in 3v?
Linked in the description
Which leads to the big question: How does the general public know where to find the good, consistent heat treaters?
There's reputable ones that have a great reputation for doing consistent heat treatments and checking them constantly as far as the knife makers go, as far as the public buying them, there's companies that use those heat treaters, or you can look to the community who has done tests for years to find out who's doing the best work
@@NeevesKnives Any kind of list of the reliable ones? I understand that this is a tricky subject.
Yo
A quick vote: On an edc knife, you can choose maxamet or AEB-L? You have to choose edge retention or toughness, can't choose something in between, discuss below⬇
ID PERSONALLY CHOOSE MAXAMET IN THIS CASE, NOW IF YOU SAID 14C I MIGHT OF HAD A DIFFERENT ANSWER
@@NeevesKnives it's crazy how a "budget steel" has entered the ranks of these once powerhouse steels, awesome time to be a knife enthusiast!
I too would pick 14c28n. Though aebl is great for what it does. 14c28n can be brittle in the geometry and heat treatment that some mass production companies use. But it can also be tough when the company knows what they are doing. I've seen some busted tips on Kershaw and we knives 14c28n while other brands didn't. Geometry and heat treat play a roll in all of that. Mora is a great example.
@@tacticalcenter8658 I totally agree. It's even crazier that 14c is a "budget" steel. On an edc knife, I would honestly pick it over just about any other steel.
And some knives can be used for food...🤯
Bang…
hello hello
Different story if you used a steel nail.
Of course I put a picture up of an edge at different angles and different levels of force on a steel bar
I have endured the first 4 mins of your video and I must say, you do not know what you are talking about. You mixed up all the terminology and theory. It is amazing you are courageous enough to make a video while knowing so little about what you are talking about.
I explained it very well imo, and of course I'm trying to explain it in great detail to people that don't understand terminology to begin with. People that have zero understanding or very limited. Tell me where you think I was wrong after watching the whole video
I just don't get why knife nerds conflate "edge retention" with "wear resistance". Right around the 1:45 mark you get it right, but then sort of back off on your correct statement. Toughness plays a HUGE role in "edge retention", but it has nothing to do with "wear resistance". I don't know why it is so hard, after all these years, that knife nerds (I put myself in that category, it's a compliment), even the PhD ones, just cannot get the two terms (WR vs ER) separated when talking about knife steel. I am on a mission to correct this nonsense. I see it all over the web, and even in the new books. There is a massive massive massive difference between "edge retention" and "wear resistance", but all too often someone will say something like "ZDP has amazing edge retention". Try taking a knife in ZDP-189, hardened and tempered to it's usual 66-67HRC, and try processing a whitetail deer, for example. Tell me, after processing that whole deer, that ZDP-189 has amazing "edge retention". Not happening. But use that same steel/knife/heat treat while cutting food in kitchen, then yeah, it will likely have amazing "Edge retention". It has very very little toughness, so contact with bone, or a hard surface, will likely chip that edge. ZDP being a great example of this, much like D2. There are a handful of factors that come together for a steel to have what we would call great "edge retention". Wear resistance is one, hardenss is another (also contributes to wear resistance, not just the carbides in the steel), toughness the resistance to fracture is another, even corrosion resistance is another factor to some small degree. Apex stability is the ability to resist lateral stress, which is in a way part of edge retention, but sort of a property on its own. I won't get into geometry, behind the edge thickness, edge angle, micron finish, etc.....those are variables the knife owner/user can control. But this business of "wear resistance" is the same as "edge retention" needs to die a death.
"The only consistent thing about them is they are all crap"......... J. Neeves 2022 😂😭
😆 I
Another myth. Microbevels make the edge stronger, tougher etc. Nope, that's not true, because they are still flat "v" edges. If you want to reinforce an edge, convex the edge bevel or raise it's angle or both.
You see them only on factory made mass produced knives, because it's the fastest and cheapest way, to put an edge on knife.
It is true, because a micro bevel is at a much higher angle and allows the behind the apex to be thicker, instead of the apex being 15° its at 25° and I spoke about convexing as well
Convex edges have their uses. Especially in feather sticking and a variety of other uses like processing animals etc. They are not without cons though.
I will not watch to the end
Well
Stop smacking cans
You and Erica are the two most real world informative about knives. Very helpful for a beginner.
Thank you