I was going to comment the exact same. I'm also wondering if the log frequency of the Avatar system is as high as the O3 or Vista. Maybe the Avatar system takes an average of the actual values to prevent values hopping all over the place. Technically you could confirm this by measuring the latency as y'all did before, instead of using the logs of the systems itself. Anyway, cool to see some testing like this. Edit: probably not even an average.
WS reported link latency I've measured to be consistently 2ms less than their glass to glass. That difference may be due to some part of the pipeline that they don't include but I don't see any reason to disbelieve the numbers.
There is one piece of information missing here: The DJI system calculates the distance to air unit by measuring the signal propagation time and reacts in some way to that. (By the way, that is how the Goggles V2 does know when to cut the video output at 13.3km). We don't know yet if the system scales its output power with measured distance. This has to be measured in the open, since you cannot easily simulate signal propagation time in a lab.
This is true. Given that in built environments the link can drop even at very close range I don't think DJI would limit power based on distance. I think if the signal is weak they would try to increase power. Otherwise you could fly behind a wall and lose video for no reason just becasue you were close to yourself.
@@ChrisRosser I think the real way to test O3 power would be to connect your variable attenuation at one antenna and connect the Power Meter at the other antenna out...while increase in attenuation may simulate distance, hence increase in power shown in power meter...Also try this in your New RMS power meter..
Great testing! I've done something similar but with vista and antennas. Attenuation in my case by distance ;) Cool to see in such a controlled test how the o3 is more consistent in the extremes, which correlates to a lot of real world flying in the wood tests. Greets, Mario
The problem is that this is the reported latencies, and we know that WS is not reporting the true latency...but O3 looks to keep the link with a lot more range and low latency at the limit not spiking, we should also check how the image looks like when the bitrate drops that would be more useful because on the same bitrate O3 will have a much better looking image
WS reported link latency I've measured to be consistently 2ms less than their glass to glass. That differencemay be due to some part of the pipeline that they don't include but I don't see any reason to disbelieve the numbers.
Yeah it almost seems like the processor doesn't quite have the performance to run full 50 megabits without hanging in the code. One of the weird things about walksnail and dji that I have noticed is even though it says 100+ fps it feels closer to 30. Makes me wonder how many of the "frames" are really just the same data.
Yes I agree personally I fly at 700mw 25 Mbits because I feel it loose signal more closer if I ever set to 1200mw or 50mbits. But anyway the test is really interesting
I’m finding this out as well. 25mbs seems to outperform 50mbs on 700w and 1000w. I never run 1200w on WS since I found it drops out way faster on upper levels
I don't think that's the best way to word it, at least from my testing. I would say that 700mw 25mbps performs just as well as 50mbps or 1200mw, not better and not worse. If that is the case, then these tests are basically the same across the board. I think for 1200mw the increased RF power makes up for the worse quality of signal, and it sort of evens itself out
@@FordTom I disagree with you. Maybe it's better with latest firmware but at the beginning of the year, tests where unanimous: 1200mw seem to get a little bit better nitrate at short mid range but then it drops dramatically compared to 700mw. Just like if you over boost the rf power but get a bunch of noise with it. And about the 50mbits caddix is struggling since the beginning with the same pattern: very clean until the signal degrades a little and then the bitrate and latency get very bad really sooner.
Very interesting, having flown walksnail I think I prefer the delay values for the O3, the occasional spikes to hundreds of ms are far more annoying than consistently going between 30-50 imo. One other factor that determines range/pen in a practical sense is the method of breakup for each of the systems; Walksnail when I fly in bandos starts horizontally smearing a lot which makes me less confident flying at lower bitrate walksnail than I would be with the O3 breakup, which is fuzzy round the edges and holds the centre image very well.
But when the big spike happens you probably videos probably bad anyway, but like everyone's saying we don't know how accurate the reported delay is anyway
I look forward to the next video on this! From my findings, the V2 Avatar system has less range then the V1. Also, for some reason the V2 wants to be powered by 6S or the voltage OSD will be red like it's warning you that it's to low of voltage, and I believe it's affecting the range just slightly, not by much but some. The V1 system has the best range, as I have tried several different antenna setups and configurations and the V1 was the best everytime. Cheers 🍻
This is great and sheds a lot of light on the two major variable latency digital video systems. I too would love to see a comparison between the Avatar power and latency modes to see why it seems to counter intuitively so better on lower power.
Hmm, the fact that the Power output of the O3 seems to be the same in CE and FCC strongly suggests that there is some flaw in the Test setup... But interesting nevertheless... Will be interesting to see the true rms power in the two modes :)
fly with CE mode and then with HAM File. and you will see much more range with HAM file. so obviously much more outputpower. must be something wrong with the testsetup i think.
I wonder if the latency reporting by dji and walksnail are directly comparable as one could be using some sort of averaging algorithm to make the latency seem more stable than it is. I guess the only caveat to this is that you are reliant of the two systems reporting of latency and bitrate being accurate and/or truthful.
I think that the other important part of the story is that the o3 bitrate and the vista bitrate cannot be directly compared because they use different compression schemes. If the objective is to know if one has "better video" that the other with various penetration tests, it would be interesting to see how much the compression scheme affects the end result - what we see in the goggles. What I have found in my testing is that the o3 has better video farther out that the vista when I do long range flights. This can be dangerous a bit because the o3 will SEEM to fail faster because it can "hang on" to a better image for longer than the vista because it can cobble together a better image at a lower bitrate.... until it can't.
Great to see this done with math and science Chris! I'm a trained artist and only a "self taught scientist" so my method for this test was fly the same forested trail with the various systems multiple times each system. My results def mirrored this (for O3 and Vista, have no Walksnail) except you reported minimal latency for O3 before cut but I've always experienced dramatic latency ~100-200ms and massive FPS drops before video-cut. I've always preferred testing by phenomenology instead of measurements when it comes to consumer products which is why I went the route I did in my testing -- I had developed a method of using faraday cages of various strengths to place over the quads but scrapped it for sake of "I want to get out and fly and feel the differences and react accordingly." p.s. this isn't a bash, 2 sides to a coin and all, loved this video and methodology. Thanks for doing what you do!
Really cool testing! I do wonder tho, how accurate the walksnail delay readings are. Werent does numbers self reported by the system quite fake and higher in reality?
I think not using the second antenna would have a negatively be effect on the results. You are trusting that the numbers in the OSD are correct but the software might be rounding the displayed value which would explain why the value is more consistent. I’ve heard others say they thought the numbers on the Walksnail system were a bit higher that the quality would indicate for latency at least.
Hi Chris, is it possible that the higher framerate fluctuation for the DJI units is due to that system using a smaller time window to calculate the framerate compared to Walksnail? Curious to also see you do some testing using 700mv on Walksnail.
Did you use the same antennas for the walksnail and DJI goggles? In the video it looks like you have DJI antennas on the WS goggles, so I'm assuming you use the same for both, but I didn't see it explicitly mentioned. Can't wait to see the data for the WS V1 diversity module to see if I'm missing out for my longrange planes. I'd also suggest you scale the graphs equally and possibly make a simplified trend graph that overlays them so you can more easily make comparisons. Cheers!
When you say consisten latency - you are actually saying it reports a consistent latency.. are we sure that this is acurate? - Same goes for the bitrate...
Can't you do ham file on 03 to get more power? Also would be cool to see your latency test at different attenuations and compare that to the goggle readout.
in any two systems, assuming you're using the same frequency and output power, you will get exactly the same penetration and range. That's to say, it's the frequency that determines penetration, not output power, and it's the output power that determines range, not frequency. People who compare dji with walksnail and conclude one better the other, aren't helping themselves or others. One obvious factor that has enormous effect on the outcome is antennae, that's why a fair test must also utilise the same antenna design.
Very interesting as always! I would be curious to know if switching to 8 channel 25mbps mode changes the behaviour of the penetration for the DJI system. What is your guess on that?
Thank you for your scientific testing! Its what i was hoping for to find out which digital system to get. Would also be interesting to see HDzero in the mix :). Anyway questiointime: Is it just me or does the walksnail latency seem just a bit tooo consistent? To be clear, i haven't flown any digital system yet, but from a technical point it just seems a bit too good to be true? Has anyone tested, if the reported latency is accurate on walksnail when obstructions/obstacles occur? Probably tough to setup, but if your running this at home two ethernet connected microcontroller of some sort might do the trick of providing physical refference fixed latency connection?
Hi, great research! Could you also look into output power on different channels? We know HDZero is strongest on R1, I wonder what channel should I use for my Walksnail flights.
Would love to see the 3.5 inch prop test, just ordered my aos 3.5. Maybe testing different prop/ battery setups for "long range", silent, acro and cinematic...
Did you use the stock Walksnail antennas, or good antennas like TrueRC or Lumenier? It is commonly known that the stock Walksnail antennas are absolute garbage. So I'm very interested in hearing if the stock ones were swapped for proper antennas in this test.
WS reported link latency I've measured to be consistently 2ms less than their glass to glass. That difference may be due to some part of the pipeline that they don't include but I don't see any reason to disbelieve the numbers.
The fade to black transitions are a little bit distracting, its make me think that my cellphone is about to lock. Any way thanks for all the hard work.
Thank you! What I want to know it's about antennas on O3 unit, because original antenna have left and right polarization. But for now, I don't see that somebody do experiment with different polarization on goggles. I tried to install one left and one right antenna on goggles, but it's looks no different. Also, on air unit antenna for 5.8 and 2.4. Maybe if to install antenna for just 5.8 and both with same polarization...
I have all hd systems excluding the 03 and goggles 2. I have found my walksnail experience to be the overall best if i was to choose only one. The 1s option is so good on my babytooth. The others just can't compete with that. The goggles are pretty nice as well. I think Hdzero is just too different from the others compare.
Yes, I've extensively tested latency and found consistent agreement with glass-to-glass and reported link latency. In general DJI is spot on and WS Avatar link latency is consistently 2ms less than g2g.
Would it be possible to see a few seconds of video from each time the attenuation is increased? Just curious to see what the "real world" experience is - although you may need a moving image to get a better feel for things. If you have a chance to include HDZero in any future testing it would be interesting as its response to a weak signal may be more visual than the other systems.
Nice technical analysis as always 👌 What Goggles did you use for the O3 air unit? Goggles 2 oder V2? Also did you use the same antennas on all VTXs and Goggles?
would i be right in thinking that when the latency is varying, that means the footage your seeing would be slightly speeding up and slowing down compared to real time?
But.. So all the measurements on the O3 were done with only a single antenna connected??? Could you maybe clarify? I think this can then not really be an accurate test.
For my quite narrow face with big nose I got it fixed with the iflight foam (the thin soft one) and some velcro wedges from the hdo2 foam set that I cut in shape and put in on the sides.
Hi Chris, I love your videos and actually haven't missed one in a good 2 years. But with this video, we're getting to a point where the whole topic is just way too theoretical. In my eyes, the only truly representative analysis of range and penetration is a field test. My experience has shown that the Walksnail Avatar system does not come close to the range and penetration of the DJI systems. Please don't get me wrong, I am anything but a DJI fanboy and wish there was a real alternative to DJI in terms of image quality, but so far there isn't.
Your field experience and my bench test agree. DJI is ahead by quite a few Mbits/dBm. I'm a firm believer that a highly controlled testing environment is the key to good quality test data. You can't create the key graph of bitrate vs attentuation with a flight test because you can't measure or control the attenuation accurately. With my test setup we can see exactly how far one system is ahead of the other in terms of bitrate/latency at every attenuation from 0dB to link drop.
You did it you did it you did it! I knew you could come up with a way to test those RF-signals more scientifically and rationally. This is a pretty interesting result - I'm impressed about the overall consistent latency now... I remember my caddx vista about 2 years ago was consistently spiking and doing all kinds of crazy stutters and needed seconds to recover. Those links have come a long way since then. I would love to see a bit of an orientation on how much DB certain objects draw and that -60db would mean in reality. I'm also curious how they perform on different output power levels. And... can any object just be described in x dB of attenuation of an RF signal or is there more to it than this?
O3 outputs a lot more than 25mW in CE mode. Not sure how it complies with regulations but it outputs 100s of mW and as far as I can tell the same power in FCC and CE modes.
@@ChrisRosser yes i've always thought that ce mode limit is 25mW for 5.8Ghz and 100mW for 2.4Ghz. hence the reduced range in DJI drones. otherwise, there'd be no need go 'hack' the drone for maximum transmission output for drones in CE regions, except to bypass geofencing, like dronehacks...
@@botchitong The 25mW limit is only for devices that do not monitor and react to other signals.Dynamic frequency selection (DFS) 5GHz transmitters can go up to 1W in the EU they have to actively check their channel for weather radar and yield to it if present. I would bet this is what auto mode does. Check the channel and hop if needed to avoid other signals. metis.fi/en/2018/02/5ghz-channels/#:~:text=In%20Europe%20(or%20in%20ETSI,attenuation%20due%20to%20higher%20frequency.
@@ChrisRosser thanks that's good to know.. so if im understanding correctly, as long as there are vacant channels to hop, ce mode can output max power... if all channels are busy, than it stays 25mW... meanwhile fcc mean goes idgaf even if all channels are occupied... so the ham file hack adds more channels to allow ce mode opportunities to hop and stay in max power... 👍👍
@@botchitong I don't know what the behaviour of the system is if it detects weather radar. I would guess it moves to another channel (maybe that's why you only get one in CE mode)
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link...I'm not sure I'd trust the caddx reported latency and bitrate numbers and kinda hurts the analysis of these systems as many have reported WS numbers to be inaccurate. The WS curves looked very strange to me, how does it 'lock' in at steady bitrates and latency over the signal attenuation? Seems as signal attenuation increases, bit rate should have a continuous negative response and latency positve. Am i not understanding the data or is my dji bias raging again?
I've tested the WS latency numbers and found them to be consistently 2ms less than the glass-to-glass so I trust them. In terms of bitrate I don't see why that wouldn't be accurate as the link certainly knows it's own bitrate. As for locking at certain bitrates I think it makes sense if you only have a few modes set up for your encoder and you switch between them. Continuously varying the bitrate is much harder.
I'd have thought you really went out and did some long range and can tell us about what distance you did and where they limited at. That would ba awesome. Dji has a 13km hard limit I saw. Not sure how far you can push walksnail
What is the point of comparing DJI O3 - 33dBm (2 Watt) vs Caddx /Avatar 30dBm? Like - "Omg! 2 watt is more powerful (more penetration) than 1.2 watt !!!!?" Also, you don't know how the DJI algorithm works - how it "takes in to account" the distance to adjust power output.
When it comes to range and penetration it's not just the power output that matters. I ran both systems flat out to get the best penetration possible which is the fairest test (no reason to limit one system to less power arbitrarily). I also didn't see O3 hit 33dBm yet we'll have to wait for the TruRMS power meter to confirm what it actually outputs. Regarding the algorithm, I pushed O3 until the link dropped so I think we can be sure that it ramped up to full power. The air unit had great cooling and knew the quad was armed (which is important). Obstructions can cause the link to drop at close range so I don't think distance is really a factor (epecially given that O3 out perfromed vista and WS avatar).
im actually relieved and dissapointed, Releived there is actual science behind this, However dissapointed as i was hoping for something with better penetration. I have an Avata at the moment and it just seems when i get into any kind of forest im lucky to get 500m, open range line of site range is fine, but the penetration is what seems to be killing me.
Could you please verify the data using a real-world environment to confirm that your home setup correlates with what happens in an actual building? If yes then I think more people would accept the results.
Strange results between O3 and caddxvista ?? In real life the O3 is way better in bitrate, pénétration and range than caddxvista Maybe due to the diversity antenna ? So strange ...
Guys is it just me seeing continuous microlag with walksnail at 720p 50mbs 100fps even when flying in the open field 30 meters away? it's an impossible thing to fly...... Nobody sees them? How is this possible?
Love your videos. Your accent sounds just like another channel I watch "the wood fired oven chef" from sound alone, I would aware you were his son, you appearance even could match. Check him out I love his content, as I do yours :)
![☀ Вот это поворот! Улетел дальше чем расчитывал. Тесты дальности. [DJI O3 Range Test]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-bYz3QuYT84/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm skeptical of the Walksnail reported latency numbers. It's not plausible to me that the actual latency is as consistent as they report.
+1
I was going to comment the exact same. I'm also wondering if the log frequency of the Avatar system is as high as the O3 or Vista. Maybe the Avatar system takes an average of the actual values to prevent values hopping all over the place. Technically you could confirm this by measuring the latency as y'all did before, instead of using the logs of the systems itself.
Anyway, cool to see some testing like this.
Edit: probably not even an average.
Was about to comment the same thing. they probably average it over a longer period, or round to a close value, same can be true for the bitrate
WS reported link latency I've measured to be consistently 2ms less than their glass to glass. That difference may be due to some part of the pipeline that they don't include but I don't see any reason to disbelieve the numbers.
The subtitles from DVR used to show different numbers than the actual OSD. Is that still a thing? I lost trust after that
There is one piece of information missing here:
The DJI system calculates the distance to air unit by measuring the signal propagation time and reacts in some way to that.
(By the way, that is how the Goggles V2 does know when to cut the video output at 13.3km).
We don't know yet if the system scales its output power with measured distance. This has to be measured in the open, since you cannot easily simulate signal propagation time in a lab.
This is true. Given that in built environments the link can drop even at very close range I don't think DJI would limit power based on distance. I think if the signal is weak they would try to increase power. Otherwise you could fly behind a wall and lose video for no reason just becasue you were close to yourself.
@@ChrisRosser I think the real way to test O3 power would be to connect your variable attenuation at one antenna and connect the Power Meter at the other antenna out...while increase in attenuation may simulate distance, hence increase in power shown in power meter...Also try this in your New RMS power meter..
Awesome work! With this first round, HDZero could very well jump in! Great content as usual!!!
Just started watching, but just wanted to say THANK YOU! Finally someone who does a proper test.
Great testing! I've done something similar but with vista and antennas. Attenuation in my case by distance ;)
Cool to see in such a controlled test how the o3 is more consistent in the extremes, which correlates to a lot of real world flying in the wood tests. Greets, Mario
The problem is that this is the reported latencies, and we know that WS is not reporting the true latency...but O3 looks to keep the link with a lot more range and low latency at the limit not spiking, we should also check how the image looks like when the bitrate drops that would be more useful because on the same bitrate O3 will have a much better looking image
WS reported link latency I've measured to be consistently 2ms less than their glass to glass. That differencemay be due to some part of the pipeline that they don't include but I don't see any reason to disbelieve the numbers.
One thing I notice with walksnail is that it seems to perform best at 700mw on 25mbps. Would be interesting to see a bench test with those settings.
Yeah it almost seems like the processor doesn't quite have the performance to run full 50 megabits without hanging in the code. One of the weird things about walksnail and dji that I have noticed is even though it says 100+ fps it feels closer to 30. Makes me wonder how many of the "frames" are really just the same data.
Yes I agree personally I fly at 700mw 25 Mbits because I feel it loose signal more closer if I ever set to 1200mw or 50mbits.
But anyway the test is really interesting
I’m finding this out as well. 25mbs seems to outperform 50mbs on 700w and 1000w. I never run 1200w on WS since I found it drops out way faster on upper levels
I don't think that's the best way to word it, at least from my testing. I would say that 700mw 25mbps performs just as well as 50mbps or 1200mw, not better and not worse. If that is the case, then these tests are basically the same across the board. I think for 1200mw the increased RF power makes up for the worse quality of signal, and it sort of evens itself out
@@FordTom I disagree with you. Maybe it's better with latest firmware but at the beginning of the year, tests where unanimous: 1200mw seem to get a little bit better nitrate at short mid range but then it drops dramatically compared to 700mw. Just like if you over boost the rf power but get a bunch of noise with it.
And about the 50mbits caddix is struggling since the beginning with the same pattern: very clean until the signal degrades a little and then the bitrate and latency get very bad really sooner.
Very interesting, having flown walksnail I think I prefer the delay values for the O3, the occasional spikes to hundreds of ms are far more annoying than consistently going between 30-50 imo. One other factor that determines range/pen in a practical sense is the method of breakup for each of the systems; Walksnail when I fly in bandos starts horizontally smearing a lot which makes me less confident flying at lower bitrate walksnail than I would be with the O3 breakup, which is fuzzy round the edges and holds the centre image very well.
But when the big spike happens you probably videos probably bad anyway, but like everyone's saying we don't know how accurate the reported delay is anyway
@FordTom, you can always enable focus mode in WS to limit breakup to the left and right edges of the image.
@@kandredfpv in my testing focus mode made it slightly more robust but when breakup inevitably occured it was still smearing across the whole screen
I look forward to the next video on this! From my findings, the V2 Avatar system has less range then the V1. Also, for some reason the V2 wants to be powered by 6S or the voltage OSD will be red like it's warning you that it's to low of voltage, and I believe it's affecting the range just slightly, not by much but some. The V1 system has the best range, as I have tried several different antenna setups and configurations and the V1 was the best everytime. Cheers 🍻
Yeah this is what I was afraid of, they probably did that developer hack to lower the power for more consistency, should see if you can raise it.
Nice video Mr Rosser. 🇬🇧You sound normal again after that nasty cold, (Prob flu 🤒) good that you’re back. 👍😎
This is great and sheds a lot of light on the two major variable latency digital video systems.
I too would love to see a comparison between the Avatar power and latency modes to see why it seems to counter intuitively so better on lower power.
Hmm, the fact that the Power output of the O3 seems to be the same in CE and FCC strongly suggests that there is some flaw in the Test setup... But interesting nevertheless... Will be interesting to see the true rms power in the two modes :)
Isn't it meant to be 25mw in ce?
Pretty sure it is 25mw . Ham file still on goggles ?
fly with CE mode and then with HAM File. and you will see much more range with HAM file. so obviously much more outputpower. must be something wrong with the testsetup i think.
We'll see when my TruRMS power meter arrives!
can you measure the two antenna outputs simultaneously? would be interersting to know if the two antennas transmit simultaneously or alternately.
Respect for your work and time you tale to choose the good process. I don't know what is your job but i think your company has Lucky.
I wonder if the latency reporting by dji and walksnail are directly comparable as one could be using some sort of averaging algorithm to make the latency seem more stable than it is.
I guess the only caveat to this is that you are reliant of the two systems reporting of latency and bitrate being accurate and/or truthful.
walksnail consistency OP! great stuff. i had a feeling it was good.
Fantastic testing, Chris! Thanks a bunch for all the info! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I think that the other important part of the story is that the o3 bitrate and the vista bitrate cannot be directly compared because they use different compression schemes. If the objective is to know if one has "better video" that the other with various penetration tests, it would be interesting to see how much the compression scheme affects the end result - what we see in the goggles. What I have found in my testing is that the o3 has better video farther out that the vista when I do long range flights. This can be dangerous a bit because the o3 will SEEM to fail faster because it can "hang on" to a better image for longer than the vista because it can cobble together a better image at a lower bitrate.... until it can't.
Great to see this done with math and science Chris! I'm a trained artist and only a "self taught scientist" so my method for this test was fly the same forested trail with the various systems multiple times each system. My results def mirrored this (for O3 and Vista, have no Walksnail) except you reported minimal latency for O3 before cut but I've always experienced dramatic latency ~100-200ms and massive FPS drops before video-cut. I've always preferred testing by phenomenology instead of measurements when it comes to consumer products which is why I went the route I did in my testing -- I had developed a method of using faraday cages of various strengths to place over the quads but scrapped it for sake of "I want to get out and fly and feel the differences and react accordingly." p.s. this isn't a bash, 2 sides to a coin and all, loved this video and methodology. Thanks for doing what you do!
Do you feel that O3 has better penetration than CADDX Vista in your experience?
@@OranJuno yes
Thank you from Brazil! Great content.
Can confirm in real life that 03 has more penetration in concrete than any other video system (vs analog, hdzero, og dji, and walksnail)
Yup and in my experience the v2 with crystals on have better penetration than the g2s stock. That's running the stock O3 antenna too.
this man and his concrete obsession 😂
@@lunaticfpv17 💪
Yep that's kind of what I would expect at the price.
Lies! I know a certain bench tester who madly disagrees! ;)
Good testing. I'd also add information about sw verions that was used in tests. WS users report performance degradation for 33.39.10
Great work! Still thinking about a digital system to go on with. DJI and Walksnail both have pros and cons. Hard choice which costs a lot.
long awaited, thanks)
Really cool testing! I do wonder tho, how accurate the walksnail delay readings are. Werent does numbers self reported by the system quite fake and higher in reality?
I think not using the second antenna would have a negatively be effect on the results. You are trusting that the numbers in the OSD are correct but the software might be rounding the displayed value which would explain why the value is more consistent. I’ve heard others say they thought the numbers on the Walksnail system were a bit higher that the quality would indicate for latency at least.
I'll do a follow up with both antennas actively attentuated and accurate RMS power measurements. This is very much the first batch of testing.
Hi Chris, is it possible that the higher framerate fluctuation for the DJI units is due to that system using a smaller time window to calculate the framerate compared to Walksnail?
Curious to also see you do some testing using 700mv on Walksnail.
Thanks Chris! Science! Fook It 👍👍👊😎👊
I have had delays of more than 120ms with the AU, V2 and stock antennas at distances over 5km which also took a long time to come down again.
Did you use the same antennas for the walksnail and DJI goggles? In the video it looks like you have DJI antennas on the WS goggles, so I'm assuming you use the same for both, but I didn't see it explicitly mentioned. Can't wait to see the data for the WS V1 diversity module to see if I'm missing out for my longrange planes. I'd also suggest you scale the graphs equally and possibly make a simplified trend graph that overlays them so you can more easily make comparisons. Cheers!
Yes same antennas all around and thanks for the suggestions!
When you say consisten latency - you are actually saying it reports a consistent latency.. are we sure that this is acurate? - Same goes for the bitrate...
Can't you do ham file on 03 to get more power? Also would be cool to see your latency test at different attenuations and compare that to the goggle readout.
He said he couldn't see a difference.
Good info - just want to add that O3 eats up soooooo much bandwidth that it kinda "obliged" to deliver superior performance.
Walksnail has a new firmware coming... apparently they've made some improvements to the radio link.
Well done!!!!
in any two systems, assuming you're using the same frequency and output power, you will get exactly the same penetration and range. That's to say, it's the frequency that determines penetration, not output power, and it's the output power that determines range, not frequency. People who compare dji with walksnail and conclude one better the other, aren't helping themselves or others. One obvious factor that has enormous effect on the outcome is antennae, that's why a fair test must also utilise the same antenna design.
Very interesting as always!
I would be curious to know if switching to 8 channel 25mbps mode changes the behaviour of the penetration for the DJI system.
What is your guess on that?
Is Part 2 coming soon? Waiting to see the penetration and range between dji 03 air unit and Vista!!!!
What happened to not relying on walksnail to accurately display the delay? Was this fixed on v2 vtx or with a firmware update I didn't hear about?
I've tested the latency on WS and can confirm that the reported link latency is consistently 2ms less than the glass to glass.
Thank you for your scientific testing! Its what i was hoping for to find out which digital system to get. Would also be interesting to see HDzero in the mix :). Anyway questiointime: Is it just me or does the walksnail latency seem just a bit tooo consistent? To be clear, i haven't flown any digital system yet, but from a technical point it just seems a bit too good to be true? Has anyone tested, if the reported latency is accurate on walksnail when obstructions/obstacles occur? Probably tough to setup, but if your running this at home two ethernet connected microcontroller of some sort might do the trick of providing physical refference fixed latency connection?
Hi, great research! Could you also look into output power on different channels? We know HDZero is strongest on R1, I wonder what channel should I use for my Walksnail flights.
Will do once I build my fancy trurms power meter!
Thanks Chris. Some time ago in a video you said you would test 3.5" props. Is that still planned? I'd love that. Maybe add some 4" props too.😊
Would love to see the 3.5 inch prop test, just ordered my aos 3.5. Maybe testing different prop/ battery setups for "long range", silent, acro and cinematic...
@@daniel_s1337 I'm waiting for the aos 4 evo to be in stock at vendors
Yep just ordered a bunch for testing next month
@@ChrisRosser 👍
great data
Thanks
Thanks, very interesting! Could you please provide links to the variable attenuator and power meter you used? Thank you!
Did you use the stock Walksnail antennas, or good antennas like TrueRC or Lumenier? It is commonly known that the stock Walksnail antennas are absolute garbage. So I'm very interested in hearing if the stock ones were swapped for proper antennas in this test.
You shouldn't rely on the goggles data for latency, we don't know if it can be trusted.
What to look for then ?
WS reported link latency I've measured to be consistently 2ms less than their glass to glass. That difference may be due to some part of the pipeline that they don't include but I don't see any reason to disbelieve the numbers.
The fade to black transitions are a little bit distracting, its make me think that my cellphone is about to lock. Any way thanks for all the hard work.
Could be possible combine the 2 power outputs of the old air unit into a single antenna? To get more power without the phase problems
Thanks 🤗
Would you say that Walksnail has bettere signal penetration then analoge or HDzero?
Need test with the Vista on firmware 1.0.0. Which works with DJI Googles 2.
Thank you!
What I want to know it's about antennas on O3 unit, because original antenna have left and right polarization.
But for now, I don't see that somebody do experiment with different polarization on goggles.
I tried to install one left and one right antenna on goggles, but it's looks no different.
Also, on air unit antenna for 5.8 and 2.4. Maybe if to install antenna for just 5.8 and both with same polarization...
I have all hd systems excluding the 03 and goggles 2. I have found my walksnail experience to be the overall best if i was to choose only one. The 1s option is so good on my babytooth. The others just can't compete with that. The goggles are pretty nice as well. I think Hdzero is just too different from the others compare.
The latency is probably based in what these systems log. Can we trust these logged values?
Yes, I've extensively tested latency and found consistent agreement with glass-to-glass and reported link latency. In general DJI is spot on and WS Avatar link latency is consistently 2ms less than g2g.
Why do you always ignore HDZero?
You can't do this test with HDZero because it doesn't report bitrate. Also range and penetration is not really what HDZero is about.
What ring light are you using over your bench there and what camera?
LS08 desk stand and Just a cheap amazon 12" ring light
Is this method Wez Varty approved? nice work here
Would it be possible to see a few seconds of video from each time the attenuation is increased? Just curious to see what the "real world" experience is - although you may need a moving image to get a better feel for things. If you have a chance to include HDZero in any future testing it would be interesting as its response to a weak signal may be more visual than the other systems.
Nice technical analysis as always 👌
What Goggles did you use for the O3 air unit? Goggles 2 oder V2?
Also did you use the same antennas on all VTXs and Goggles?
Goggles V2 and yes all the same antennas on both sides.
@@ChrisRosser would be interesting to see what's the difference between the Goggles 2 and V2 is. Because to me the vista did better then the O3.
nice!!
would i be right in thinking that when the latency is varying, that means the footage your seeing would be slightly speeding up and slowing down compared to real time?
Latency= delay so yes the frame would be delayed, then probably dropping frames when delay drops.
Whens the new test coming! 😂
But..
So all the measurements on the O3 were done with only a single antenna connected??? Could you maybe clarify? I think this can then not really be an accurate test.
All measurements were done with 1 antenna or all systems and I plan to do more testing with both antennas active in the future.
How to fix the dji goggles 2 fit and focus ?
For my quite narrow face with big nose I got it fixed with the iflight foam (the thin soft one) and some velcro wedges from the hdo2 foam set that I cut in shape and put in on the sides.
@@disco.volante got a video?
Hi Chris, I love your videos and actually haven't missed one in a good 2 years. But with this video, we're getting to a point where the whole topic is just way too theoretical.
In my eyes, the only truly representative analysis of range and penetration is a field test.
My experience has shown that the Walksnail Avatar system does not come close to the range and penetration of the DJI systems.
Please don't get me wrong, I am anything but a DJI fanboy and wish there was a real alternative to DJI in terms of image quality, but so far there isn't.
Your field experience and my bench test agree. DJI is ahead by quite a few Mbits/dBm.
I'm a firm believer that a highly controlled testing environment is the key to good quality test data. You can't create the key graph of bitrate vs attentuation with a flight test because you can't measure or control the attenuation accurately.
With my test setup we can see exactly how far one system is ahead of the other in terms of bitrate/latency at every attenuation from 0dB to link drop.
is there a reason you didnt test the hdzero system?
You did it you did it you did it! I knew you could come up with a way to test those RF-signals more scientifically and rationally. This is a pretty interesting result - I'm impressed about the overall consistent latency now... I remember my caddx vista about 2 years ago was consistently spiking and doing all kinds of crazy stutters and needed seconds to recover. Those links have come a long way since then.
I would love to see a bit of an orientation on how much DB certain objects draw and that -60db would mean in reality. I'm also curious how they perform on different output power levels. And... can any object just be described in x dB of attenuation of an RF signal or is there more to it than this?
I still have annoying stutters with my Vistas, even with the Goggles 2.
im no expert but O3 ce (25mW) and fcc
(2W) modes are both seen to have the same output power ... i was expecting ce mode be almost invisible...
O3 outputs a lot more than 25mW in CE mode. Not sure how it complies with regulations but it outputs 100s of mW and as far as I can tell the same power in FCC and CE modes.
@@ChrisRosser yes i've always thought that ce mode limit is 25mW for 5.8Ghz and 100mW for 2.4Ghz. hence the reduced range in DJI drones. otherwise, there'd be no need go 'hack' the drone for maximum transmission output for drones in CE regions, except to bypass geofencing, like dronehacks...
@@botchitong The 25mW limit is only for devices that do not monitor and react to other signals.Dynamic frequency selection (DFS) 5GHz transmitters can go up to 1W in the EU they have to actively check their channel for weather radar and yield to it if present. I would bet this is what auto mode does. Check the channel and hop if needed to avoid other signals. metis.fi/en/2018/02/5ghz-channels/#:~:text=In%20Europe%20(or%20in%20ETSI,attenuation%20due%20to%20higher%20frequency.
@@ChrisRosser thanks that's good to know.. so if im understanding correctly, as long as there are vacant channels to hop, ce mode can output max power... if all channels are busy, than it stays 25mW... meanwhile fcc mean goes idgaf even if all channels are occupied...
so the ham file hack adds more channels to allow ce mode opportunities to hop and stay in max power... 👍👍
@@botchitong I don't know what the behaviour of the system is if it detects weather radar. I would guess it moves to another channel (maybe that's why you only get one in CE mode)
At last!!! Science not a subjective opinion ;-)
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link...I'm not sure I'd trust the caddx reported latency and bitrate numbers and kinda hurts the analysis of these systems as many have reported WS numbers to be inaccurate. The WS curves looked very strange to me, how does it 'lock' in at steady bitrates and latency over the signal attenuation? Seems as signal attenuation increases, bit rate should have a continuous negative response and latency positve. Am i not understanding the data or is my dji bias raging again?
I've tested the WS latency numbers and found them to be consistently 2ms less than the glass-to-glass so I trust them. In terms of bitrate I don't see why that wouldn't be accurate as the link certainly knows it's own bitrate. As for locking at certain bitrates I think it makes sense if you only have a few modes set up for your encoder and you switch between them. Continuously varying the bitrate is much harder.
You cannot add 50ohm to dji and pretend it output the same between fcc and ce as they work in balanced mode you have to test both antenna.
I'd have thought you really went out and did some long range and can tell us about what distance you did and where they limited at. That would ba awesome. Dji has a 13km hard limit I saw. Not sure how far you can push walksnail
O3 pushes out to 23km now I believe.
@@DroneDocs nope. 15km not further I believe. That's what dji claims in FCC mode too
@@chrisbee5481 I have walksnail. Upped the power to 1.2w. Still not sure which resolution, speed, power, channel combo I should use.
@@chrisbee5481 someone flew the o3 to 23 or 24km.
@@andrew-729 R1 for long range is what's proven best frequecy
What is the point of comparing DJI O3 - 33dBm (2 Watt) vs Caddx /Avatar 30dBm? Like - "Omg! 2 watt is more powerful (more penetration) than 1.2 watt !!!!?"
Also, you don't know how the DJI algorithm works - how it "takes in to account" the distance to adjust power output.
When it comes to range and penetration it's not just the power output that matters. I ran both systems flat out to get the best penetration possible which is the fairest test (no reason to limit one system to less power arbitrarily). I also didn't see O3 hit 33dBm yet we'll have to wait for the TruRMS power meter to confirm what it actually outputs.
Regarding the algorithm, I pushed O3 until the link dropped so I think we can be sure that it ramped up to full power. The air unit had great cooling and knew the quad was armed (which is important). Obstructions can cause the link to drop at close range so I don't think distance is really a factor (epecially given that O3 out perfromed vista and WS avatar).
im actually relieved and dissapointed, Releived there is actual science behind this, However dissapointed as i was hoping for something with better penetration. I have an Avata at the moment and it just seems when i get into any kind of forest im lucky to get 500m, open range line of site range is fine, but the penetration is what seems to be killing me.
Could you please verify the data using a real-world environment to confirm that your home setup correlates with what happens in an actual building? If yes then I think more people would accept the results.
Strange results between O3 and caddxvista ??
In real life the O3 is way better in bitrate, pénétration and range than caddxvista
Maybe due to the diversity antenna ?
So strange ...
If only the O3 could penetrate even the slightest bit of darkness
You can modify exposure compensation values and reduce contrast to improve brightness for O3, but yeah not as good as Polar
🤘🤠
DJI fanboys in disbelief
Guys is it just me seeing continuous microlag with walksnail at 720p 50mbs 100fps even when flying in the open field 30 meters away? it's an impossible thing to fly...... Nobody sees them? How is this possible?
Have you updated your firmware to the latest? I've only seen really poor perfromance on super old firmware.
Love your videos. Your accent sounds just like another channel I watch "the wood fired oven chef" from sound alone, I would aware you were his son, you appearance even could match. Check him out I love his content, as I do yours :)
I think dji hardware is more faster than walksnail.. faster memory faster processor for dji ...
Walksnail V1 has better range than v2.
Don’t even gotta watch the video to know walksnail is the third wheel in the digital market. Dji knockoff