I think the problem is that the original Dishonored was never meant to have a sequel. The lead dev even said it during an interview before the release of Dishonored 1. The fact that the game was a smash hit and Bethesda wanted a sequel to a game that was never intended to have one is in my opinion the root of all the problems the sequel has. That being said. Once you get past this D2 is a great game.
The entire plot is just a copy paste of Daud’s story with less care for the characters and the world around them. The story should’ve ended in the first one.
it still could have worked, if they just took the Dishonored universe but have a whole new location with new characters, that are not connected to the main game at all. I really hate this Nostalgia-Biting sequels do with the "member this character? member this location? member?". Just like the new star wars movies. Preaching all about cutting ties, but then wasting OG characters left and right. Why not just not tell a complete new, disconnected stories with new characters? Argh, this sequel curse drive me mad! I cant think of any good sequel within the last 10 years, no matter which medium.
I played in french and let me tell you they chose the best and most talented voice actors of the time, combined to the superb writing, it leaves a truly unforgettable experience
While I admit that the story is rather shallow, “a crack in the slab” is one of the coolest levels I have played in any game ever. Swapping between the different time periods never gets old
Another solution to D2's story just being a retread I've wondered about is instead of having the infuriating beginning where the exact same thing happens twice with no meaningful resistance, why couldn't the game have been about political intrigue in another region? They went to the effort of putting together a whole other city and used it just to repeat the exact same plot they already did. Why not retain Emily as empress but have Corvo or even your suggestion of Emily's children act as agents of the crown dispatched to deal with some brewing disaster? You can have potentially the exact same stakes, tell any kind of story but just drop the jarring "haha oh dear, looks like the rug's been pulled out from under you again and you lost everything! That's a real shame, can you guess what the game is going to be about?"
I mean, on the first map, when you walk through the streets, you see a bunch of dead guards and civilians alike. Ramsey explicitly stated in one of his commands, to stop checking the Serkonan Grand Guard, so that they don't waste their time. We don't know what happened to the other parts of Dunwall though. About an armed resistance on a grander scale, the other islands were preparing for an invasion against Dunwall, if I remember correctly.
The retread has to happen to keep the dishonor title but I feel like it could’ve been done better like I thought Delilah was taking control of Corvo to do the killings or Daud was back and hunting Delilah after she was freed making the dishonor A being the Empress’ father was committing mass murder Or B the empresses kidnapper and mothers killer was still alive and supposedly working for Emily
@@monarch6662 "The retread has to happen to keep the dishonor title" Change the title. Even add a subtitle relating to the new narrative direction the new game is taking if the marketing is a strong concern. But never use it to excuse creative laziness.
@@Ryu-on1jq Right. Because a sizable portion of the city watch actually remained loyal to Emily and Corvo. In fact, as the coup begins, a clockwork soldier kills a watchman in the throne room. The problem is, other than that and some bodies, there is no indication that resistance to the coup is occurring. I believe it should have been shown. That indeed some guards aren’t turncoats. At the end of the game Emily even takes command of the watch again. Which shows that loyalists still remain even after the coup is finished. Why couldn’t this have been shown? There’s no gameplay choices due to this at all.
I do love Karnaca though. One of my top settings in a game. Architecture, culture and etc really drew me in. Definitely a place I would visit if it was safe.
@@cerdic6305 Which is a genius decision on the art team which shouldnt be undercut - there is no game in the universe of games that looks as gorgeous as the mediterranean-esque levels of Dishonored 2
I actually find Emily's powers very fitting for her: they fit a metaphorical theme for her power as empress. Far reach for the borders of her empire Domino for her power to forge people's fate Doppelganger for the armies she could command
I always had this headcanon that coming into contact with other people with the Outsider's mark can influence their powers too. Or at least traumatic events connecting them do. Corvo can use stop blink because of Daud. Being able to summon rats and create bloodflies makes sense as a "currently happening" type of thing. Emily's ability to turn into that shadow form I think is supposed to represent her dark history with her mother dying and experiencing all kinds of anxiety as a kid. Far reach's decelerate represents Emily having to delay her commands due to bureaucracy and politics as an empress, but she eventually has to make an order. Domino is the coolest thing since it literally embodies the notion of, what you do to one person effects everyone else. The concept of the powers having story relevance is really cool.
@@Zayindjejfj interesting thought, though he only aquires it in the second game. Om the other hand: Emily can use dopplegangers as delilah can (though hers are crafted from stone i belive) We definitely know that marked people can grant others powers as well, even unintentionally, as seen by the hand of granny rags Paolo
I would argue that ability to choose between characters was not born out of desire to be more inclusive, but out of decades old fear "games with female protagonists don't sell". In one of their interviews they say this "We started with just Emily, and then over time we realized that a certain part of the team was nostalgic for Corvo, as were a certain part of the players." and I would bet that it was marketing team that was scared shitless of having already niche game fronted by female protagonist.
Yeah ubisoft have the same problem along sexual harassment problem. Devs just wanted a female main character but was forced to add a choice to be guy because the higher ups think woman main characters don't sell.
there is, but that depends on your own karma, low karma, the female guard wants the chick to steal silverware so they can escape serkonos together, while the high chaos version she pushes her off the roof when she was doubting she'd steal silverware, its pretty cool
Jessamine still being in the heart, and by extension, the implication that her being freed from the heart is a sacrifice, really irks me. It's made rather clear in the first game that the heart is an aberration, something which should not exist, and the Outsider implies that the heart will only exist as long as Corvo needs it. Imagine a game in which Emily is the sole protagonist and Corvo dies in the intro. Boom, Corvo's in the heart now. Corvo likely has different things to say about what he's now a witness to than Jessamine did, and with subtlety being brutally murdered in this game, likely could have been a constant companion for Emily. That way, Corvo's spirit leaving to unbind Delilah actually matters. Actually, in regards to that lack of subtlety, it really hurts. They aren't content to let the heart's owner be unspecified, they aren't content to let the Outsider be mystery, or Billie Lurk being Megan Foster. They feel the need to spell everything out for you. Damnit, this game's writing infuriates me.
Great way to put it. I have a love hate relationship with dishonerd 2. I absolutely love the gameplay but there is always something that ircs me that I can never put to words. You just summarized some of my feelings.
I don’t think it should have been corgis heart (although I completely understand why you would want it, it’s just a personal preference) I like the heart as an idea that it’s simply the outsider giving them both help and a reunion with their lover/mother in a very coy way
@@They_Hit_The_Pentagon The issue is more the thematic bungling of the heart rather than it's occupant. While I disagree with trotting the Empress back out, if they had handled it well I wouldn't have a problem with it, but they didn't.
One point you made is "What's stopping a group of people from summoning Delilah back out from the void?" I don't think she would want to leave. She's stuck, yes, but she's trapped in her own fantasy where everyone will adore her for the rest of time. Her main goal was to make that a reality. (BTW great video, it really did make me rethink my thoughts on this game)
The other issue is that we're accepting DLC as canon...For those of us that didn't play the DLCs this never occurred to us especially since the new goal wasn't to trap her in the void using a painting just as you've said.
I like your comment about the designers had level ideas and storyline came later because my opinion of Arkane is that their writing is basically an excuse for their gameplay (and found amusing that their narrative designer in the No Clip video only talked about gameplay and never about the narrative :-P) ... though i seem to have a much more positive outlook on it as i love Arkane's gameplay :-P.
I preferred dishonored 1. I didn’t care for the story in 2 at all. The gameplay in 2 is good but compared to the first leveling up and acquiring all the powers is slower. In dishonored 1 I felt that you got access to try all the powers but in 2 you basically have to make a distinctive build but not really get the full handle on that until last few levels. Like for the me, the game became fun later after I completely leveled up my rat swarm ability with the matching bone charms and just let them tear through everything (though at one point in dunwall tower my undying swarm got stuck in the level so I couldn’t summon them until I found them again after backtracking)
@@Patrician I rarely ever replay games (my backlog is too long) so Dishonored 2 really felt like a step back in the powers compared to the original even if there were more powers. I understand developers want you to replay games to stretch out play time and monetization (though Arkhane isn't a developer that monetizes you) but I think there's something to be said for a developer allowing you to at least get a taste of the full extent of the tools available before you specialize. It's about choice. How am I to know how I want to approach the game if I haven’t had a chance to try all the options to see what works best for me? I feel like dishonored 2 didn't give you enough of that taste to know how you wanted to play
I think it was partly due to the same Cara that worked on VTMB2 and almost got it shut down due to extreme woke ideas- it just doesent make for an interesting story when its focused on pushing radical politics instead of telling a good story.
I do think the weapon differences are more to demonstrate how although both are stealthy, there is a thematic difference between Corvos gruff working class background and more aggressive approach and Emily’s noble station and more acrobatic approach
@@thebigyes8482you don’t have to desperately look for it at all. There’s no name brand lingere line for men casually existing in every mall to exist. Sexism includes the bioessentialist belief that women like prettier things because they’re women. It’s really that easy. If you don’t see it, you’re closing your eyes and looking away. Kinda embarrassing to admit :/
@@carmabis432 Right, and you think there’s absolutely no way that Emily’s pistol (her gun) (her fucking firearm) is perhaps not designed with sex appeal in mind?
@@carmabis432every time someone says something like this I write them off as a person before they even finish. How are you real? This is such a stupid idea to not only hold in your head but share with others.
Was wondering if you were gonna do this soon. One of my favorite games; funnily enough I just replayed the main game two weeks ago for the first time since 2016. Good on you for retroactively publicizing this franchise. It is truly a gem, despite its faults. Possibly even one of the last great AA tier (vs AAA massive studio) gaming franchises.
@@Patrician totally agree. D2 would have been much better if it were streamlined more towards stuff like system shock and that old vampire game with tons of replay ability and world interaction (that I now can’t remember the name of). In other words, they should have put all their eggs in one basket. Prey scared the shit out of me as well in terms of where Bethesda has been erasing their quasi-indie niche in the industry. But their success with Doom Eternal w ID makes me take prey with a grain of salt. They truly knew their fan base with that game. Apologies for the essay. P.S. I hopped on this channel right after the Morrowind video, and you are now far and away my favorite game analyst out there. Keep it up man! (Even though you make me self-conscious about Skyrim lol)
@@neddywight7639 Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption/Bloodlines As an aside, I feel like an old school gaming badass that I purchased played and beat Bloodlines before Troika went bankrupt.
@@planescaped yeah haha that’s the one. And I’m definitely a lot younger than you because I only know retrospectively about that game from what I’ve learned about it over the years of following analysts like patrician. But good on ya, Original Gamer.
32:10 I recognize that voice...thanks for having me on! I wasn't aware of how much they stripped away from the chaos system compared to the first Dishonored. I wonder how much of an impact it had with Raphael Colantonio focusing on Prey at the time, as he was a co-director of the first.
12:36 You could even have the tutorial level be you playing Corvo, teaching them fencing and stealth and then you pick which character you're going to play depending on who you save before Corvo dies.
For me, I always thought the level design in the second game was better then the first. Or at least, their layouts. The first game had a few levels that were pretty linear, like bridge and flooded, and most of the large buildings in the game felt like giant loops with side rooms, which made them feel like less of actual buildings to me, like the golden cat or dunwall tower. Most of the levels in the second game feel like they have flow, Like where every arm of a building branches off of a singular point, like most buildings in the real world. No matter how much you tried, you would always wind up in the same place, since every path is built off of it. Just some examples, the staircase on addermire, the dining hall at the dukes palace, and the giant open room on the conservatory. The only one that didn't feel like it had a proper focal point was clockwork mansion, which was probably be design, while the only level that felt like it did in the first game was the boyle mansion... The DLC might have been better, I honestly don't remember, but it was my biggest nitpick about the first game... and its such a small and subjective nitpick that I have no idea how many people would even consider it a flaw.
I agree. I didn't realize all the points you've made actually until I replayed the 1st game after playing the 2nd. It felt like a linear experience in comparison lol
I have the polar opposite take lol outside of the Duke's Palace and Addermire every major building has only one entrance-face, the museum, Dunwall Tower (again), the Slab, all of them have one wall that has entrances or are segregated into their own load-zone, even the clockwork manor has one door verticality is totally stripped down in many levels too where most of the buildings in D1 have near 360 degree entrances, even the Overseers had a back door in the Dock area despite being on the edge of their load-zone they managed to make the tower less dynamic than the first, which was already linear Dunwall tower, Boyle mansion, the DLC buildings, and every target building in D1 has what you talked about; the generic buildings in both games don't do that
@@Patrician Played through both games about 10 times each & I never really considered a 'non-lethal assault'. Sounds difficult but also very fun. Brilliant idea.
There is one interesting feature they did with the chaos system since now chaos generation varies depending on who you kill rather than the amount you kill. Though this was something I only found out in the last level when I looked up whether you could get away with killing the witches, and yah, killing witches has very little impact on chaos (so little that I killed every witch and still got the best ending) and you can use the heart to see if someone is a terrible person which will let them be killed for lower chaos. But since the game doesn't really tell you this outside of tooltips and I doubt any player is going to interrogate every guard/civi with the heart, I'd say it should have been implemented a bit better.
@@anon2427Yeah, for example in the first game at one point there is a witch being threatened by two people, at least one being an overseer, if you kill them or sedate them with a sleep dart before they kill her you actually lower your overall chaos.
1) Morality didn't work as simple as you explained it, as the heart will determine the "goodness" of a character and give you more chaos ratings if you kill a good person as opposed to a bad person 2) there are 2 instances off the top of my head where female guards are dicks, the janitor scene in addermire, and pushing that other girl off a roof (chaos linked i think???) 3) I agree, Emily should have been the sole character. The writers essentially confirmed that Emily was the original protagaonist but were scared because female fronted games dont sell (not necessarily true) so they added Corvo in..
I know it ain't perfect, but I loved it. Mostly the designs of just about everything with the Clockwork mansion easily being one of my favorite video game levels of all time (in terms of visuals). I was a dumb kid when it was coming out so I'm one of those autists who bought the collectors edition. I still have the mask and one day I want to use my modeling skills to really make the damn thing pop. Still it was fun listening to you, looking forward to the oblivion vid, what a fucking experience that will be.
13:43 Actually, there is one instance in Dishonored 2 where a female guard kills a citizen. It's during the Royal Conservatory mission and only occurs in high chaos.
Ikr? the complaints seem odd.... In my playthrough of D2 I only thought of "Woah, the design and powers are differen from Corvo and Emily" Not once in my head i thought of them being sexist.
It IS sexist. And that's ok, because having an identity, no matter how "stereotypical", isn't inherently a bad thing. Only because we have social stereotypes about women liking feminine things does not mean that individual women can't like feminine things and that designers shouldn't design individual female characters that do. It's only bad when applied as a generalization to an entire group of people without respecting their personal individuality.
Love his voice acting too. I actually didn't realize it was Garrett from Thief until later on. Explains why I loved it. Basically Garett yet old and battle hardened.
I played my first playthrough with Corvo and I really loved it. I still enjoyed Corvo as a protagonist because I liked seeing him return to his old stomping grounds. So much of the first Dishonored is focused on Corvo as a foreigner, and to watch him return to his hometown was really engaging to me. It’s a different idea than Emily not realizing what’s happening to her subjects, but I love Corvo returning to a home thst he had been removed from for so long. I loved helping that hometown grow and develop and removing the tyrants who were controlling it.
I really liked Dishonored 2. I did not feel that much was off, but I had not played the first game since it came out years ago. Makes me want to go back and compare them a bit. Than again, I also really just LOVED the gameplay of dishonored. Thanks again for the amazing video though.
The part about chaos is ... well, the first time I've heard that detection affected the chaos system in the first game. I always believed it was a morality system as the game, with the wiki even supporting this: "It has been reported that, for high chaos to be achieved, Corvo, Daud, or Emily must kill 20% of the human population per mission. If total kills exceed 50% of the population seen, the city is irrevocably thrown into chaos, and the very high chaos ending is depicted. However, these thresholds are not absolute, as there are several other factors that increase or decrease chaos." You said yourself that it was changed because of the "frankly disingenuous critisim that the chaos system dishonoured 1 was just a morality meter", when killing many people stealthly will still cause the high chaos ending. You later elaborate this with the 'Steven' example, but your example of how the chaos system works is ... well, a morality system. You kill, loudly or quietly, the game reacts. Not sure what your point on it was... along with that an the door code bit. Felt out of place?
Detection affects chaos level in Dishonored 1. Likewise the game is filled with little sidequests and NPC interactions that also affect chaos level. I wouldn't put much stock in fan wikis at the best of times, but that page you're talking about actually _does_ support both of these points if you scroll down to the "Increasong Chaos" section. You could call the system morality based in either game, but the point is that Dishonored 2's implementation of it is nothing more than a binary choice of lethal vs non-lethal. More importantly it is arbitrary, it has little in the way of logical connection to changes being made to the game world through the player's actions. In Dishonored 1 the "good" choices tended to lead to lower chaos and the "bad" ones to higher chaos, but those choices were also more carefully set up narratively so that the high chaos made sense. It's all smoke and mirrors at the end of the day, but Dishonored 1's implementation had more variables, and thus more depth, and it was woven more seamlessly into the levels.
@@yewtewbstew547 it’s not lethal vs non-lethal it’s morality vs amorality the heart will tell you a secret about any person you’re about to kill that hypothetical persons secret will then decide their chaos value Overseer A is a overseer to help and to feed the homeless Overseer B steals donation money Overseer C raped his sister If you kill A high chaos count If you kill B medium chaos count and C chaos goes down If you kill A and C but not B chaos stays the same If you kill B and C chaos faces a slight uptick If you call A and B chaos is higher than all of the above
@@monarch6662 You are partially right, but even if you kill the worst person in The Isles, the chaos meter would still go up, it will have a lesser impact than killing a good person. Nonetheless, it will negatively influence the world.
yeah, the story in D2 is quite shallow, its like it was thought of in the last month of development, or a side effect of bending the knee, who knows...
Leadhead's review and this review sum up my exact issues with dishonored 2. This game just didn't seem right in so many ways, but you two hit the nail on the head for explaining why.
just a different perspective here, looking at the same thing. Dishonored 2 accounted for more possibilities so that none of them was absolutely required. this was a deliberate design decision that offers the player more freedom to explore not only the world but also the gameplay. Dishonored doesn't quite have that playground element that its sequel has, and the simulation in general feels less complex in the original title, making the experience feel more curated and linear. that spontaneity that makes Dishonored 2 really spark feels more scripted in Dishonored. i'm not sure about the point you're trying to make about differences between the two games' use of the chaos system, it seems like splitting hairs so i'll let that be (the point about peoples' ~deaths~ causing higher chaos (yes because of a decision, okay, but it's still based on deaths... *shrug*)). also players generally thought the game made high chaos a more viable way to play the game, so i don't really know what to say there. the combat in the game is definitely improved in 2. the story isn't why i play the Dishonored series. i enjoy the cartoonish, colorful characters, the enthusiastic voice acting, but i don't really scrutinize the details of the story. for me it just lays the bedrock for the gameplay, which is really the reason i play. the world-building, the mise en scene, i love all that, because it draws me into the world. Dishonored is a great game, but a lot of people including me prefer the sequel because how much more expansive the gameplay is by comparison. most of the criticism i've seen leveraged against the game is with regard to story (justifiably so, i won't argue that) and performance on PC, which still is not ideal (i just play at 60 fps for a 100% smooth experience, tho 120/144 would be preferable). i think it's great that Dishonored 2 gives you the option to play it without any powers. this becomes a completely different experience from playing the game with them, and that's the point. i didn't play the game without powers till probably my 20th run, and i loved the experience. it was definitely more challenging than with powers, but that just turned my focus to different elements of the gameplay that weren't priority before. you seem to be stuck on this idea that certain abilities should be "required" to accomplish things, but that strays away from the design philosophy of providing myriad ways of overcoming an obstacle. heck, you're not even required to fight Delilah, if you find a way. it's not intuitive, but it's rewarding to discover for oneself. you talk about being able to use your powers to inhabit animals in order to infiltrate as wasteful and that it's easier just entering another way, but you neglect to mention that doing so allows you to enter a completely different part of the building (in this case Addermire Institute). entering this way might actually preserve magic because you're able to circumvent a large number of enemies. and different abilities have different pros and cons. for instance, using shadow walk you don't have to worry about knocking out and hiding a guard. EDIT: i do like how your BioShock critique addresses the lack of actual player agency as they're forced to inject himself with a plasmid. Dishonored 2 allows you to progress without that plasmid shot. what's wrong with that for people who want more of a challenge and to play in a specific way? TLDR (didn't mean to write an essay lol): Dishonored may have a better, more cohesive story, but Dishonored 2 has better gameplay. also one nitpick is the lack of re-recording commentary that contains statements are just not true. as i recall you saying in your Elder Scrolls video, a lot of people tend to listen to videos like podcasts rather than explicitly watch them, so many people may not be aware of your corrections.
"Dishonored 2 accounted for more possibilities so that none of them was absolutely required. this was a deliberate design decision that offers the player more freedom to explore not only the world but also the gameplay." That's being put in question here, what's being criticized is that this approach makes up for a less tight experience. The more options you put in your game the less work you can put into them. The point about the different chaos systems is that one is significantly worse (or at least more intellectually insulting) and less complex than the other, I thought that was quite obvious with him saying so. As far you not having a problem with the story that's irrelevant. Just because you don't mind doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
@@naunau311 i don't see how the sequel has a significantly worse chaos system than the first, even after his explanation. they work on the same basic premise. i don't find that true at all, that having more options means necessarily less work. there are trade-offs. if you want fewer options, play without powers? idk i just disagree with his take. also, for shits and giggles: ...just because you think it matters doesn't mean it does. to me the story doesn't really interfere with my enjoyment of the game. to me it's like critiquing a Mario story, with a few more folds. i just don't care. for me it's all about the systems that it creates, and there are simply more of them, and more involved, than in the first game. do you, tho. if you like to think of the story as being more essential to your enjoyment of the game, then go ahead.
The outsider should not have been given a backstory. The near cosmic horror and intrigue he brought gave the first game spice. Instead he ended up being some edgelord goth I knew from highschool. I think this video has put some answers to what I couldn't put my finger on since playing Dishonored 2. Thankyou That and I think because Dishonored 1 in its entirety felt like but one small vignette of the world so when I saw it continued corvo and Emily's story I was already disilusioned.
I disagree. The core gameplay is worse. Crouch delay? Everything feels choppy and sluggish. Enemies have less combat techniques. It feels like Bioshock Infinite syndrome. Pretty setting, soulless gameplay.
I wonder how the game would've gone if it was literally just about Corvo being sent to Karnaca by Emily to investigate the political and almost very real war between the Serkonos Elite, (Duke and Grand Guard.) the Howlers and the Overseers. The game could've easily been another game about political twists, plots, betrayals with some Magic thrown in and the Outsider being as dejected and monotone about his morbid curiosity about whether things will turn to shit or if Corvo will, 'surprise' him again. I literally only just had this idea and in my head, I can see it playing out FAR better than repeating the Delilah Dilemma... Again.
P.S For Jindosh, I personally believe one of the choices should be to leave him alone and just rescue Sokolov. Yes, Jindosh is a bit of a sociopath. But... Sokolov was no better in his younger days. I mean, in Dishonoured 1, he literally has a poor woman locked up and has consciously infected her with plague, or maybe she already had it before being brought there. Either way, he keeps her locked up like a lab rat, lies to her that he's working to cure her and everyone else. But then notes in his journal that she'll probably die the next day. So... Really, I don't see Jindosh as any more of a monster than I saw Sokolov. I think that's where the game fails, truly. Besides Breanna, Luca and Delilah... None of the other targets really deserve their non-lethal or lethal eliminations.
I agree with most of this, though I think the game would be worse off without the trifecta of Corvo's powerset, Emily's powerset, or no powers, and I think it's pretty incredible they kept the levels engaging for all three while keeping them distinct. I do however concede that it would have been really interesting to see them balance the whole game around some of the absurd stunts you can pull off with Far Reach (especially when combined with Agility and the right bonecharms) the only mission where Far Reach truly shines is the second one since there's so much open space to the area past the docks. I also think you could have focused a little more on the improvements to the fundamentals of the combat system, maybe I'm alone in this because I don't hear it mentioned much but while the mechanics are relatively similar other than combat knockouts the game in their fancy new engine and all that just feels so much more solid than the first game.
Yeah, the fundamentals of the fights are much better - and that's not even lmentioning the much improved non-lethal takedowns, where the first game was very limited.
@@arthursimsa9005 Not to mention proper animations for slide KO's, lethal or nonlethal, as well as a billion more animations based on angle and enemy state. It isn't a big deal on its own but I think it really adds to immersion if the player character has variety of animations that look good in combat.
If they make a sequel, they should choose a different group of people. They could have someone from a noble family as the main character with their family falling from grace due to noble in-fighting and have the game be about rebuilding their family back up.
I've really enjoyed going back through your library lately Pat. Also, I've never taken the time to watch the frame-by-frame of Corvo using stop time to murder the guards during the coup (03:47). I'm pretty impressed that there are actually frames depicting each one's death, definitely a cool little inclusion, even if there are some inconsistencies.
I had an almost no lethal playthrough as Corvo, being able to posses everyone in a room one after the other and I had the bonecharm that leaves them unconsius when you leave them.
Interesting video. On the last topic, i think Delilah has been dishonored as well, if we take her backstory as the truth. Bastard daughter of Emily's grandfather, kicked out with her mother for the crime of Jessamine, mother dead from the debtors prison, raped or at least pressured into sleeping with Anton Sokolov. If her story is true, she definitely was Dishonored. I do agree that if we get a Dishonored 3, I don't want her to return in any form greater than obscure lore, or a name drop from an old coven member or something.
I disagree with the use of the term 'appeasement' here. The writing decisions of the 2010's were not the desperation of helpless studios; they were the marketing decisions of powerful publishers seeking returns on investments during a controversy. That activists were never fully satisfied with this was ultimately a feature, not a bug.
@@512TheWolf512 They could have made corvo a bonus post game mode without the need to balance him, like vergil in dmc or infinite ammo in resi... They chose to balance for two characters instead. The activists bound their hand a certain way, but the execution fully rested on them.
I've always been curious about this balance: how much is appeasement/fear and how much is cynical manipulation. I'm sure both are at play in different proportions for different projects. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the rooms where these decisions are made.
@@Momohhhhhh You accidentally put in the world a great idea for a stealth corporate espionage game which takes into the account the zeitgeist of the industry you're spying on.
13:57 Dude, I love that even while criticizing plot holes you offer a plot-consistent explanation as for why the thing could have happened. It's easy to strawman; it's more creative and entertaining to demonstrate the thing itself, fixed.
13:45 I believe this argument is actually wrong. In the district where you go into the witches palace “forget the name but it’s where you can talk to stone Delilah” you can witness a female guard pushing her old friend off a roof. Great video though,
I think if they were going to include Delilah in the pattern of non-lethally 'dishonoring' your targets by robbing them of what makes them a threat, they should've figured out a way to make Delilah give up the throne on her own. Delilah isn't dangerous because she has magic powers, she's dangerous because she's the most ambitious person in Dunwall. The Outsider beats you over the head with the idea that she fought tooth and nail to get where she is today, regardless of any literal magic powers. I think it would've been really interesting if they found a way to rob her of her ambition, either by showing her definitive proof that her plan could never work, or showing her that it would all be futile even if she succeeded. Maybe you could sit down and have a debate with her over her long term plans, or somehow call the Outsider during the final mission and have him appear to give Delilah all of his memories. He'd be showing her what it's like to have all that power at your fingertips for thousands of years. If he's eternally bored of his position, Delilah would eventually get bored too, and there's nothing she could do to fix that since she'd be making herself omnipotent. Having that kind of revelation would break her, and I think it'd be really cool to see her realize this in real time and just give up on the spot. I'm sure somebody else has already come up with a better version of this idea, but it's just something I found myself thinking about while watching this video
It's good to critique things you love, though my impression of what you said I find off is the powers segment. Like the rat swarm isn't only a lethal option, its great for summoning a swarm and possessing a rat to sneak past enemies. Also while there may be easier options in the game it defeats the point of the game and that's self challenge. What I love about Dishonoured games is it's kind of down to you to create your own fun with the powers and see what you can do with them. Otherwise it's a fair critique, good video man. keep it up :D
Also to add to the idea of playing as Emily's kids, instead of having bad dialogue to tell that corvo is her dad you could have a scene where you see his grave that says "beloved father"
the high chaos for psycho killing the traitors can be justified in a doc on guards cabin, after you kill mortimer ramsey. Some of them are being threatened
Appreciate the shout-out to my article in Boulder Punch's cameo! I really liked Dishonored when it was the one of the first "Immersive Sims" I'd played (Deus Ex: Human Revolution was my gateway), but soured greatly on it during an attempted replay. Stealth no longer held any interest as I had recently renounced savescumming, and the pure combat route simply felt too easy to succeed in with minimal tactical variation or creativity. Moreover, the game's systems design problems reared their ugly head and I found myself nonplussed by the mandatory checklist exploration for character upgrades, unbalanced randomization of bone charms, abusable recharging mana, and generally overpowered magic abilities to the point that I felt no desire to continue after I got softlocked by quicksaving right after the mission script bugged out. Your first Dishonored video suggested that I might have a better time doing a "stealth until I get caught" playstyle, and I really ought to give the DLCs another chance with that mindset (I never got around to them as I had originally intended to play them after replaying the base game). For what it's worth, Dishonored is nominally the kind of game I love (stealth/combat sandbox with compact but open-ended levels, exploration focus intersecting with RPG elements) and I actually enjoyed some aspects like the chaos system -- I thought it was a nice abstraction to simulate the effects of your actions on the world and it's rather nuanced as you point out, even if it could have used some expansion. Unfortunately, I get the impression from this video that none of my problems with the first game are addressed, but rather exacerbated in the sequel with the degraded chaos system, bone charm crafting bloat, and especially the fact that challenges are designed around zero character upgrades. As much as I probably should give Dishonored 2 a try, everything I hear about it just puts a bad taste in my mouth, with little of the praise I hear for the level design really spurring my interest. Well, at least I still have Deus Ex, System Shock, and Thief to go back to.
It's a game worth playing and seeing for yourself. Honestly I'm kind of shocked you haven't tried the sequel considering your other preferences. Everyone laments how they don't make games like those anymore yet are so resistant to giving the games that try to carry on the legacy a chance.
gotta agree. in the first game he's a lot colder, more apathetic. now he seems to care more about Corvo/Emily and takes up a more energetic personality. his constant exposition also doesn't help him at all.
@@frostsoul4199 Not only that but all the time you met him in the first game he was always above your character speaking in a cool and collected manner, demonstrating that the only reason you are worth his time is because he finds you worthy and he doesn't ask you if you want his mark or not, you are playing his game and even if you never use his powers there will always be a reminder that he's watching you in your hand. Now he literally stoops down to your level speaking in a brash and hasty manner as if he were your equal or even inferior to you at times, with the only reason he has any screen time is because the plot demands it, he's no longer an active character driving the plot, he's a tool (in more ways than one).
@@themilkman9451 Sounds like a classic example of over explaining a mysterious character and ruining them. With a character like that, mystique is always better than knowing.
I loved your review of dishonored 2 more than the first game due to overviewing gameplay abilities and comparing them to each other, as i feel like most of the reviewers don’t care much about. But i love to learn it still- given i have zero hours a day to play games myself, not even talking about testing every mechanic the game has. So deeper reviews like yours really help me to not miss out on conversations with my friends who played the games I didn’t- thanks a lot for doing it ! :0 I appreciate it a lot c:
I heavily disagree with the fact that far reach is a downgrade. Yes, the mechanics are confusing when you first start using it, but there are so many things you can do with far reach that you can’t even attempt to accomplish with blink. People act like it is this totally broken accident of a power that the developers just threw in to be alternative. In reality, I think it actually solves the big problem that blink had, which was its low skill ceiling.
I started with the Morrowing Retrospective, and man. Talk about someone who's quickly become my top go to for long form content. Falling asleep? Patrician. Playing a game that I can split attention? Patrician. Studying? Patrician. Chores? You get the idea. Love your content man, I'm rewatching the Morrowind vid, and will inevitably come back to the Oblivion vid as well.
I felt like playing the dishonored games and it seems im not the only one. I think I've seen 5 different videos on this series within this month, 2 of which I've seen today. Thisll be the 3rd. Weird...
I started re playing dishonored 2 and was going for a low lethality run... The bone charm that allows you to choke people faster was the very last I found...
There is a female guard who on the high chaos route with attempt to pressure a woman into a theaft, but ultimately ends up throwing the woman off the roof. In low chaos it's a similar start, but they're revealed to be in a relationship and planning to run away together (no murder this time)
@Starless Fully agreed. The "mystery box" gimmick that J.J. Abrams deservedly gets mocked for nowadays is precisely because he was fine with leaving it closed because he knew it was empty. The unraveling of a mystery has a quality all of its own, but there's actual relevant narrative learning necessary for the catharsis to take place.
The way daud traps her and how she is trapped in dishonored 2. In dishonored she knows it didn’t work and that she’s in the void. In dishonored 2 she is trapped in her perfect reality with no knowledge that she is in the void
Dishonored 2 & Dragon Age Inquisition devs: "So who should be the main villain of this new game?" "How about the schmuck from the previous title's DLC?" "Genius!"
@@aktivniigomes1989 I agree but when you rehash the same story I’d argue that’s lame story telling. There’s no like themes like with mgs2 rehashing mgs1’s primary story beats it’s really just dishonored 1 all over again in short. I think you could definitely follow similar story beats to the first game but it just didn’t work for me with dishonored 2
Now, i've watched probably dozens of videos on Dishonored and its sequels (mainly because i have this strange love/hate relationship with the series) but for some combination of reasons i really liked yours. Maybe it's the serious delivery or the fact that you go really in-depth on the design and effect of every aspect of gameplay and story, but it was strangely enthralling. Anyways you got a sub!
Dishonored is one of my absolute favourite games. I do enjoy the second one too, but it's just sad to see how it fell flat. Oh well, be happy that it happened in the first place I guess.
@@commandershepard7110: while I respect your opinion since D2 is a lovely looking game with vibrant levels... it just isn't as good as Dishonored. I still replay Dishonored from time to time(just finished it yesterday to try and get myself in the mood to finally beat Dishonored 2 after quitting it multiple times) and it isn't perfect but it's a masterpiece compared to D2 in terms of the story and the chaos system. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't finish D2, but this video has definitely given me some much needed insight. D2 is weighted down with duel stories, overly aggressive female marketing and a very bad story which just feels like a bad version of the first game.
I saw in a interview with one of the developers that the Jindosh level was meant to have 3 outcomes with one being you spare him. He says that mostly everyone in the dev team wanted that but couldn't make it due to Budget
Something about the Upgrade System you didnt mention, was how bad some of the Upgrade placements were. I got BOTH Sneaking Boots only the LAST Level, which makes Stealth playthroughs in the first NG extremely annoying. And I never even got the faster chocke out Bonecharm.
For me both the dishonored games were all about levels, utterly beautiful environments and the fantastic smooth catlike movements through them. The story, lore, backstory could definitely have been better but for me both were revenge plots...."take back what is yours"....and I am fine with that. Dishonored 2's levels and the incidental details are just through the roof. Just soaking in the atmosphere of each of them is what gives me a high. Flawed but beautiful games imo.
25:06 Killing all those guards on m1 means that Corvo or Emily were already tyrannical rulers meaning that Karnaca had been effected by Dunwall's chaos for all the years that Emily had been empress
Except... they hadn't been surrounded by guards that were committing a coup de tat up until that point, so that makes no sense. Traitors get executed, but their direct employees that are doing their jobs.
"Designers had ideas and the story came later". Yup. As it should be. I didn't care about the story in D1, I certainly didn't care about the story in D2 but I also love them both dearly. This is an immersive sim, not role-playing game therefore: "It's magic" is perfectly acceptable justification for the plot. The only thing that truly bothers me about the plot in D1 and D2 is that I can't skip it all, I have to sit through Outsider's and Delilah's bullshit. Criticising D2's plot is like criticising an album based on it's cover art - it's not unimportant, but it shouldn't dominate the review.
"The chaos of the first level affecting the second level of Karnaca is a betrayal of the entire premise of the chaos system." You must not have noticed that the same thing happens in Dishonored 1. Depending on how many guards you kill in Coldridge, the three civilians walking the waterfront the next night will say different things. In particular, on high chaos, the woman will say, "I just saw some terrible things," but on low chaos, she'll comment on how she was just given help by someone else and that there's still good in the world.
Except it makes sense. A night has passed, if you slaughtered guards left and right there is a good chance a family member or a wife would become enraged or insane at the news and lash out, when they otherwise would be kind persons.
im still mad about the voice casting for Corvo, he seems so suave and elegant as a mute protagonist in the first game, then the sequel has him played by BELETHOR from SKYRIM doing the most cliche gravelly gruff voice, what a huge miss
In the first game I pictured him as having a whisper quiet borderline raspy voice as he's been brutal tortured for 6 months and has most likely been constantly screaming most of that time.
Both Dishonored and Dishonored 2 are my favorite games ever. I completely acknowledge that both games, story wise, are lacking but in terms of level design and mechanical adaptability the games are pretty much second to none. Dishonored 2 specifically offers so much variability in playstyles that I've played it over 10 times and still don't get bored. I think that games as a medium can have value based on mechanical merit even when the story might not be perfectly drawn or match up exactly to what we experience mechanically. Are the Dishonored games flawed? Certainly all media is. Do I think Dishonored 2 is massively entertaining and offers a strong expansion upon the mechanics of the original? Unequivocally yes.
The story was lacking for sure but I liked how open your options were by having so many powers available. Also NG+ was my favorite implementation, if Dishonored 1 had it I would be jumping for joy. I hated that Dishonored didn't have NG+ so I couldn't have Bend Time for level 2 and so on
It immediately soured me on the game when, only a single area after setting up the mystery of the Crown Killer, Dishonored 2 solved the mystery. The game couldn't hold onto the secret of the identity of a mysterious serial killer and build up intrigue for more than five seconds before blurting out a name. Each time a new antagonist is focused on, that person only matters long enough for one level to play out, then is easily discarded. I guess Dishonored 1 kind of did this, but for some reason it comes across worse in 2. Maybe because 1, despite giving Corvo distinct targets in each level, still obviously had a team of people (his supposed allies) clearly working together to betray him. Whereas 2, which asserts that a conspiracy of people brought Delilah back, doesn't do much to show them working together besides the one flashback (or rather, actual witnessing of past events). It's a shame, because yeah, the level design is super cool. Some of the character design is also super cool (though I will never forgive designers for making Emily's equivalent of Corvo's iconic mask... pulling a scarf up over her lower face). Jindosh's prosthetic fingers, Grim Alex's conceptualization of herself... but Arkane apparently forgot to write the story part of the game until a day before the deadline, and had an overworked intern type whatever came to mind without any edits. This game's potential makes me so bitter.
i still love both games though. the second game story was alright, but it didn't save the game. the gameplay did. hopefully they can make a third game and have Corvo and Emily on missions side by side with each taking down aristocrats.
Dude I just wanna say that I fucking adore this video. I love both Dishonored games and if future Arkane games took notes of the shit you talk about in this vid it would be amazing. Somewhat excited for Deathloop.
I totally agree on your point about level design needing to accommodate too many play styles. And to expand on that, it's been a really bad trend for the last 10 years. Especially in stealth games or games like the latest Ghost Recon games. When you can choose stealth, assault, lethal, non lethal or even dropping in from the sky in a game and the only consequence is some path might be easier, then players will do the quicker option even if it's out of character. Devs need to stop being afraid of the outrage brigade and design games how they want them to be played, not design to make every player happy at once
Dishonored 2 was way more fun to play for me. Levels were a lot bigger and more interesting. The story wasn't that good but I didn't care much for the story in the first game either.
While I never played 1, it was hard not to laugh out loud when the villian struts in at the start, says shes the rightful ruler, and people just immediately believe her with no proof. Its the laziest way Ive ever seen a character get reset to zero for a sequel.
I thing I hated about the Jindosh stuff is that, imo, this "low-chaos" way is way more cruel than just straight up killing him, because losing oneself really ain't all that low chaos
Most of the low chaos ways to deal with targets are specifically cruel acts of mercy, besides probably Daud and Delilah. The Pendleton twins get their tongues cut out and forced to work in their own mines for example
the royal conservatory has a female grand guard throwing a civilian off of a roof for not stealing something for her, i could go in game and figure out her name but im too lazy. also i primarily use dopelganger to distract large groups of enemies during nlg runs when the way is blocked by a bunch of npc's or there are >4 enemies and i simply dont upgrade the middle tree and just use it as a distraction and then it disorients the enemies nearby the dopelganger when it disappears, also using it in conjunction with mesmerise and the domino effect skill you can take out groups of 8+ enemies non lethally in a situation where it'd be either super time consuming or damn near impossible without powers (you would have to make a noise with gunfire or hitting a wall or the floor near an enemy to lure him away from the group)
Some people consider Dishonored to take place in the Elder Scrolls setting, ergo, this is the Oblivion video.
I have never heard that before (mental note to look into that). Anyways take your time on TESIV vid man looking forward to your thoughts. :)
@Solar Coffee Cause Bethesda is the publisher
my body is ready for a A Quick Retrospective of Oblivion
@Starless it is. Grognak is actually the hero of kvatch
After that poll I feel myself betrayed.
I think the problem is that the original Dishonored was never meant to have a sequel. The lead dev even said it during an interview before the release of Dishonored 1. The fact that the game was a smash hit and Bethesda wanted a sequel to a game that was never intended to have one is in my opinion the root of all the problems the sequel has. That being said. Once you get past this D2 is a great game.
The entire plot is just a copy paste of Daud’s story with less care for the characters and the world around them. The story should’ve ended in the first one.
Had a feeling the sequel was never planned considering 1's ending
Though it wasn’t planned they could’ve planned out the story more. I want a D3, and to see the new Heir.
This includes some of the auto mechanics included
it still could have worked, if they just took the Dishonored universe but have a whole new location with new characters, that are not connected to the main game at all.
I really hate this Nostalgia-Biting sequels do with the "member this character? member this location? member?". Just like the new star wars movies. Preaching all about cutting ties, but then wasting OG characters left and right. Why not just not tell a complete new, disconnected stories with new characters?
Argh, this sequel curse drive me mad!
I cant think of any good sequel within the last 10 years, no matter which medium.
Dishonored honestly has to be one of my favourite games of all time. Just in concept, art and design alone its fantastic.
Well.. those are the areas it's good ik yeh...
I played in french and let me tell you they chose the best and most talented voice actors of the time, combined to the superb writing, it leaves a truly unforgettable experience
While I admit that the story is rather shallow, “a crack in the slab” is one of the coolest levels I have played in any game ever. Swapping between the different time periods never gets old
nooooooooooooooooo, you should hate it because fiction media never gets an impossible concept right
cough titanfall 2 cough
@@catspoons didn't titanfall 2 come out after dishonored 2?
@@carts.g I don't know.
@@carts.g Titanfall 2 came out October 28, 2016 and Dishonored 2 November 11, 2016
Another solution to D2's story just being a retread I've wondered about is instead of having the infuriating beginning where the exact same thing happens twice with no meaningful resistance, why couldn't the game have been about political intrigue in another region? They went to the effort of putting together a whole other city and used it just to repeat the exact same plot they already did. Why not retain Emily as empress but have Corvo or even your suggestion of Emily's children act as agents of the crown dispatched to deal with some brewing disaster? You can have potentially the exact same stakes, tell any kind of story but just drop the jarring "haha oh dear, looks like the rug's been pulled out from under you again and you lost everything! That's a real shame, can you guess what the game is going to be about?"
I mean, on the first map, when you walk through the streets, you see a bunch of dead guards and civilians alike. Ramsey explicitly stated in one of his commands, to stop checking the Serkonan Grand Guard, so that they don't waste their time. We don't know what happened to the other parts of Dunwall though.
About an armed resistance on a grander scale, the other islands were preparing for an invasion against Dunwall, if I remember correctly.
The retread has to happen to keep the dishonor title but I feel like it could’ve been done better like I thought
Delilah was taking control of Corvo to do the killings or Daud was back and hunting Delilah after she was freed making the dishonor
A being the Empress’ father was committing mass murder
Or
B the empresses kidnapper and mothers killer was still alive and supposedly working for Emily
@@monarch6662 "The retread has to happen to keep the dishonor title"
Change the title. Even add a subtitle relating to the new narrative direction the new game is taking if the marketing is a strong concern.
But never use it to excuse creative laziness.
@@Ryu-on1jq Right. Because a sizable portion of the city watch actually remained loyal to Emily and Corvo. In fact, as the coup begins, a clockwork soldier kills a watchman in the throne room.
The problem is, other than that and some bodies, there is no indication that resistance to the coup is occurring. I believe it should have been shown. That indeed some guards aren’t turncoats. At the end of the game Emily even takes command of the watch again. Which shows that loyalists still remain even after the coup is finished.
Why couldn’t this have been shown? There’s no gameplay choices due to this at all.
@@monarch6662 No it doesn't. There is no standard to maintain when literally only one previous game exists.
I do love Karnaca though. One of my top settings in a game. Architecture, culture and etc really drew me in. Definitely a place I would visit if it was safe.
Architecturally it's just Montenegro or basically anywhere else in Mediterranean Europe
@@cerdic6305 Which is a genius decision on the art team which shouldnt be undercut - there is no game in the universe of games that looks as gorgeous as the mediterranean-esque levels of Dishonored 2
@@braxtonwise9897 I don't necessarily disagree, just saying that you pretty much can go and visit a safe version of Karnaca
Two words, Blood Flies.
@@cerdic6305montenegro😂😂
FYI - it's actually possible to go into Jindosh's mansion without alerting him, as long as you don't touch any of the levers.
It's so ridiculously satisfying to do that level this way. The Clockwork Mansion is one of the most inventive maps I've ever seen in a video game.
I actually find Emily's powers very fitting for her: they fit a metaphorical theme for her power as empress.
Far reach for the borders of her empire
Domino for her power to forge people's fate
Doppelganger for the armies she could command
Mesmerize as well, basically influencing the people
I always had this headcanon that coming into contact with other people with the Outsider's mark can influence their powers too. Or at least traumatic events connecting them do. Corvo can use stop blink because of Daud.
Being able to summon rats and create bloodflies makes sense as a "currently happening" type of thing.
Emily's ability to turn into that shadow form I think is supposed to represent her dark history with her mother dying and experiencing all kinds of anxiety as a kid.
Far reach's decelerate represents Emily having to delay her commands due to bureaucracy and politics as an empress, but she eventually has to make an order.
Domino is the coolest thing since it literally embodies the notion of, what you do to one person effects everyone else.
The concept of the powers having story relevance is really cool.
@@Zayindjejfj interesting thought, though he only aquires it in the second game. Om the other hand: Emily can use dopplegangers as delilah can (though hers are crafted from stone i belive)
We definitely know that marked people can grant others powers as well, even unintentionally, as seen by the hand of granny rags Paolo
I would argue that ability to choose between characters was not born out of desire to be more inclusive, but out of decades old fear "games with female protagonists don't sell".
In one of their interviews they say this "We started with just Emily, and then over time we realized that a certain part of the team was nostalgic for Corvo, as were a certain part of the players." and I would bet that it was marketing team that was scared shitless of having already niche game fronted by female protagonist.
They could have gone the other route too and given only certain missions to Corvo. Or given him a DLC I think 🤔 Or both.
I can agree to that.
@@Lenosallose i like having the choice to be honest
Yeah ubisoft have the same problem along sexual harassment problem. Devs just wanted a female main character but was forced to add a choice to be guy because the higher ups think woman main characters don't sell.
I'm glad they let us play as corvo taking away my blink for some fake ass arm extensions is not cool m8
13:35 actually there is one level where a female guard pushes a woman off a roof for something petty
there is, but that depends on your own karma, low karma, the female guard wants the chick to steal silverware so they can escape serkonos together, while the high chaos version she pushes her off the roof when she was doubting she'd steal silverware, its pretty cool
what, more than one woman? a group execution? damn that's brutal
and in Addermire Institute I believe a female captain executes the janitor but I can't recall if that's chaos related
@@ziodice6166 It's not chaos related. I'm playing a clean hands run and she just blasts the poor guy where he's sitting
@@512TheWolf512 that’s my bad I misspelled woman but if this a clever jab, then I hate you lol
Love Dishonored. Hope we get D3 someday
I wouldn't expect much out of it though considering the modern trend for videogame quality
You could kinda count death of the outsider as d3
@@jackkennard2743 we don't talk about that one...
@@jackkennard2743 thats a part 3 for the dlc versions
Hopefully death loop will be a spiritual successor because I don’t see D3 ever coming
Jessamine still being in the heart, and by extension, the implication that her being freed from the heart is a sacrifice, really irks me. It's made rather clear in the first game that the heart is an aberration, something which should not exist, and the Outsider implies that the heart will only exist as long as Corvo needs it. Imagine a game in which Emily is the sole protagonist and Corvo dies in the intro. Boom, Corvo's in the heart now. Corvo likely has different things to say about what he's now a witness to than Jessamine did, and with subtlety being brutally murdered in this game, likely could have been a constant companion for Emily. That way, Corvo's spirit leaving to unbind Delilah actually matters. Actually, in regards to that lack of subtlety, it really hurts. They aren't content to let the heart's owner be unspecified, they aren't content to let the Outsider be mystery, or Billie Lurk being Megan Foster. They feel the need to spell everything out for you. Damnit, this game's writing infuriates me.
Great way to put it. I have a love hate relationship with dishonerd 2.
I absolutely love the gameplay but there is always something that ircs me that I can never put to words. You just summarized some of my feelings.
I don’t think it should have been corgis heart (although I completely understand why you would want it, it’s just a personal preference) I like the heart as an idea that it’s simply the outsider giving them both help and a reunion with their lover/mother in a very coy way
@@They_Hit_The_Pentagon The issue is more the thematic bungling of the heart rather than it's occupant. While I disagree with trotting the Empress back out, if they had handled it well I wouldn't have a problem with it, but they didn't.
Sequelitis
It was already pretty obvious Jessamine was in the Heart in the first game though.
One point you made is "What's stopping a group of people from summoning Delilah back out from the void?" I don't think she would want to leave. She's stuck, yes, but she's trapped in her own fantasy where everyone will adore her for the rest of time. Her main goal was to make that a reality. (BTW great video, it really did make me rethink my thoughts on this game)
But if/when she realizes it's a fantasy, IE fake and all the people are not real she'll reject it.
The other issue is that we're accepting DLC as canon...For those of us that didn't play the DLCs this never occurred to us especially since the new goal wasn't to trap her in the void using a painting just as you've said.
@@user-kn6rw9uk2i unless it's especifically stated by the devs,you can't just disregard DLC story as non-canon just because you didn't play it
@@dustygamer6304 natch, just saying it didn't hurt my experience. The second game felt natural for not participating.
@@user-kn6rw9uk2ilmao the DLC is way better connected to the main game than the sequel
In the "crack in the slab" time travel is available in the mansion because a hole in the void was torn in that spot not because of Stiltons memories.
I like your comment about the designers had level ideas and storyline came later because my opinion of Arkane is that their writing is basically an excuse for their gameplay (and found amusing that their narrative designer in the No Clip video only talked about gameplay and never about the narrative :-P) ... though i seem to have a much more positive outlook on it as i love Arkane's gameplay :-P.
I preferred dishonored 1. I didn’t care for the story in 2 at all. The gameplay in 2 is good but compared to the first leveling up and acquiring all the powers is slower. In dishonored 1 I felt that you got access to try all the powers but in 2 you basically have to make a distinctive build but not really get the full handle on that until last few levels. Like for the me, the game became fun later after I completely leveled up my rat swarm ability with the matching bone charms and just let them tear through everything (though at one point in dunwall tower my undying swarm got stuck in the level so I couldn’t summon them until I found them again after backtracking)
I think they slowed the progression down to encourage replays with different builds.
@@Patrician I rarely ever replay games (my backlog is too long) so Dishonored 2 really felt like a step back in the powers compared to the original even if there were more powers. I understand developers want you to replay games to stretch out play time and monetization (though Arkhane isn't a developer that monetizes you) but I think there's something to be said for a developer allowing you to at least get a taste of the full extent of the tools available before you specialize. It's about choice. How am I to know how I want to approach the game if I haven’t had a chance to try all the options to see what works best for me? I feel like dishonored 2 didn't give you enough of that taste to know how you wanted to play
I like d1 better but to me the gameplay is better in d2 with all the new ways to knock your goes unconscious and I like some of Emilys abilities
I think it was partly due to the same Cara that worked on VTMB2 and almost got it shut down due to extreme woke ideas- it just doesent make for an interesting story when its focused on pushing radical politics instead of telling a good story.
you have new game plus
I just realized how hot Arkane made Corvo in this game.
Couldn't agree more
Gay
I do think the weapon differences are more to demonstrate how although both are stealthy, there is a thematic difference between Corvos gruff working class background and more aggressive approach and Emily’s noble station and more acrobatic approach
Yeah, you would only find a sexism angle in that if you were desperately looking for it.
@@thebigyes8482you don’t have to desperately look for it at all. There’s no name brand lingere line for men casually existing in every mall to exist. Sexism includes the bioessentialist belief that women like prettier things because they’re women. It’s really that easy.
If you don’t see it, you’re closing your eyes and looking away. Kinda embarrassing to admit :/
@@carmabis432 Right, and you think there’s absolutely no way that Emily’s pistol (her gun) (her fucking firearm) is perhaps not designed with sex appeal in mind?
@@carmabis432OK, buddy
@@carmabis432every time someone says something like this I write them off as a person before they even finish. How are you real? This is such a stupid idea to not only hold in your head but share with others.
Was wondering if you were gonna do this soon. One of my favorite games; funnily enough I just replayed the main game two weeks ago for the first time since 2016. Good on you for retroactively publicizing this franchise. It is truly a gem, despite its faults. Possibly even one of the last great AA tier (vs AAA massive studio) gaming franchises.
Honestly trying to force Dishonored as a mainstream series is probably what hurt Arkane the most. Budget for the audience you expect.
@@Patrician totally agree. D2 would have been much better if it were streamlined more towards stuff like system shock and that old vampire game with tons of replay ability and world interaction (that I now can’t remember the name of). In other words, they should have put all their eggs in one basket. Prey scared the shit out of me as well in terms of where Bethesda has been erasing their quasi-indie niche in the industry. But their success with Doom Eternal w ID makes me take prey with a grain of salt. They truly knew their fan base with that game. Apologies for the essay. P.S. I hopped on this channel right after the Morrowind video, and you are now far and away my favorite game analyst out there. Keep it up man! (Even though you make me self-conscious about Skyrim lol)
@@neddywight7639 Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption/Bloodlines
As an aside, I feel like an old school gaming badass that I purchased played and beat Bloodlines before Troika went bankrupt.
@@planescaped yeah haha that’s the one. And I’m definitely a lot younger than you because I only know retrospectively about that game from what I’ve learned about it over the years of following analysts like patrician. But good on ya, Original Gamer.
32:10 I recognize that voice...thanks for having me on! I wasn't aware of how much they stripped away from the chaos system compared to the first Dishonored. I wonder how much of an impact it had with Raphael Colantonio focusing on Prey at the time, as he was a co-director of the first.
nice segment! can’t wait to binge some of the videos on your channel!
The games used for gameplay footage in your segment look super interesting
Could you list a few of them?
Eyyy boulder punch!!! HUGE FAN !!!!
12:36
You could even have the tutorial level be you playing Corvo, teaching them fencing and stealth and then you pick which character you're going to play depending on who you save before Corvo dies.
How have I never heard of Peripeteia, it's like someone crawled in my head and made the game my subconscious never knew it needed.
For me, I always thought the level design in the second game was better then the first. Or at least, their layouts. The first game had a few levels that were pretty linear, like bridge and flooded, and most of the large buildings in the game felt like giant loops with side rooms, which made them feel like less of actual buildings to me, like the golden cat or dunwall tower. Most of the levels in the second game feel like they have flow, Like where every arm of a building branches off of a singular point, like most buildings in the real world. No matter how much you tried, you would always wind up in the same place, since every path is built off of it. Just some examples, the staircase on addermire, the dining hall at the dukes palace, and the giant open room on the conservatory. The only one that didn't feel like it had a proper focal point was clockwork mansion, which was probably be design, while the only level that felt like it did in the first game was the boyle mansion... The DLC might have been better, I honestly don't remember, but it was my biggest nitpick about the first game... and its such a small and subjective nitpick that I have no idea how many people would even consider it a flaw.
I agree. I didn't realize all the points you've made actually until I replayed the 1st game after playing the 2nd. It felt like a linear experience in comparison lol
I have the polar opposite take lol
outside of the Duke's Palace and Addermire every major building has only one entrance-face, the museum, Dunwall Tower (again), the Slab, all of them have one wall that has entrances or are segregated into their own load-zone, even the clockwork manor has one door
verticality is totally stripped down in many levels too
where most of the buildings in D1 have near 360 degree entrances, even the Overseers had a back door in the Dock area despite being on the edge of their load-zone
they managed to make the tower less dynamic than the first, which was already linear
Dunwall tower, Boyle mansion, the DLC buildings, and every target building in D1 has what you talked about; the generic buildings in both games don't do that
@@rae5425lol dishonored 2 is just as linear.
Ah yes I almost forgot the iconic witch dialogue from Dishonored 1.
"Are you going to swim with us later?"
"No, I don't think so"
"shall we gather for whiskey and cigars tonight?"
@@WCRyder "Yes, I believe so."
"Think you'll get your own squad after what happened last night?"
I have yet to play these games. Now I think I rather should.
I recommend Emily and either stealth-lethal or non-lethal assault.
@@Patrician Played through both games about 10 times each & I never really considered a 'non-lethal assault'. Sounds difficult but also very fun. Brilliant idea.
There is one interesting feature they did with the chaos system since now chaos generation varies depending on who you kill rather than the amount you kill. Though this was something I only found out in the last level when I looked up whether you could get away with killing the witches, and yah, killing witches has very little impact on chaos (so little that I killed every witch and still got the best ending) and you can use the heart to see if someone is a terrible person which will let them be killed for lower chaos. But since the game doesn't really tell you this outside of tooltips and I doubt any player is going to interrogate every guard/civi with the heart, I'd say it should have been implemented a bit better.
That’s the case in the first game, with main characters and randoms being the split instead of factions
@@anon2427Yeah, for example in the first game at one point there is a witch being threatened by two people, at least one being an overseer, if you kill them or sedate them with a sleep dart before they kill her you actually lower your overall chaos.
1) Morality didn't work as simple as you explained it, as the heart will determine the "goodness" of a character and give you more chaos ratings if you kill a good person as opposed to a bad person
2) there are 2 instances off the top of my head where female guards are dicks, the janitor scene in addermire, and pushing that other girl off a roof (chaos linked i think???)
3) I agree, Emily should have been the sole character. The writers essentially confirmed that Emily was the original protagaonist but were scared because female fronted games dont sell (not necessarily true) so they added Corvo in..
I know it ain't perfect, but I loved it. Mostly the designs of just about everything with the Clockwork mansion easily being one of my favorite video game levels of all time (in terms of visuals). I was a dumb kid when it was coming out so I'm one of those autists who bought the collectors edition. I still have the mask and one day I want to use my modeling skills to really make the damn thing pop. Still it was fun listening to you, looking forward to the oblivion vid, what a fucking experience that will be.
I wish I had the mask, is it wearable?
@@WCRyder not really, it's to thin for my big head, my kid brother can't even wear it, it's really just a display piece
13:43 Actually, there is one instance in Dishonored 2 where a female guard kills a citizen. It's during the Royal Conservatory mission and only occurs in high chaos.
Just One?
How Far We Have Fallen.
@@yakatsusensei325 In the third mission, Addermire Institute, a female guard executes a civilain because he knows about the Crown Killer.
I’m a woman, it’s not sexist to women to have Emily’s tools be more sleek and elegant, there’s nothing wrong with sleek and elegant
Ikr? the complaints seem odd.... In my playthrough of D2 I only thought of "Woah, the design and powers are differen from Corvo and Emily" Not once in my head i thought of them being sexist.
It IS sexist. And that's ok, because having an identity, no matter how "stereotypical", isn't inherently a bad thing. Only because we have social stereotypes about women liking feminine things does not mean that individual women can't like feminine things and that designers shouldn't design individual female characters that do. It's only bad when applied as a generalization to an entire group of people without respecting their personal individuality.
Honestly I associated it with Emily being an empress and Corvo being some gutter rat with a REALLY good sword arm.
I've only played as Corvo, because of Stephen Russell's voice.
Love his voice acting too. I actually didn't realize it was Garrett from Thief until later on. Explains why I loved it. Basically Garett yet old and battle hardened.
I played as Emily because it felt it was her turn, her game.
You'll never be a woman :)
Ikr it just feels awkward that corvo has to save the empire twice.
I played my first playthrough with Corvo and I really loved it. I still enjoyed Corvo as a protagonist because I liked seeing him return to his old stomping grounds. So much of the first Dishonored is focused on Corvo as a foreigner, and to watch him return to his hometown was really engaging to me. It’s a different idea than Emily not realizing what’s happening to her subjects, but I love Corvo returning to a home thst he had been removed from for so long. I loved helping that hometown grow and develop and removing the tyrants who were controlling it.
Also, they’ve made it so easy to get low chaos and take out people nonlethally in this game. You can chain choke out entire patrols easily.
Say what you want about the dialogue but you can’t deny that Stephen Russell saves and even enhances that shit
Dishonored 2 is a pinnacle of game design IMO. One of my favorite games of all time. It's atmosphere is also unrivaled and surpasses the first one IMO
Great videos man, I really appreciate these in depth reviews. I don't even watch reviews shorter than like 15 minutes anymore lol
Same. 3-4 years ago a 15 minute video seemed perfect. Now it seems like a waste.
I really liked Dishonored 2. I did not feel that much was off, but I had not played the first game since it came out years ago. Makes me want to go back and compare them a bit. Than again, I also really just LOVED the gameplay of dishonored. Thanks again for the amazing video though.
You kept bringing up The Phantom Pain and now I just want an 8 hour analysis video of the Metal Gear series
The part about chaos is ... well, the first time I've heard that detection affected the chaos system in the first game. I always believed it was a morality system as the game, with the wiki even supporting this:
"It has been reported that, for high chaos to be achieved, Corvo, Daud, or Emily must kill 20% of the human population per mission. If total kills exceed 50% of the population seen, the city is irrevocably thrown into chaos, and the very high chaos ending is depicted. However, these thresholds are not absolute, as there are several other factors that increase or decrease chaos."
You said yourself that it was changed because of the "frankly disingenuous critisim that the chaos system dishonoured 1 was just a morality meter", when killing many people stealthly will still cause the high chaos ending. You later elaborate this with the 'Steven' example, but your example of how the chaos system works is ... well, a morality system. You kill, loudly or quietly, the game reacts.
Not sure what your point on it was... along with that an the door code bit. Felt out of place?
I specifically remember killing a lot of guards in Dishonored 1 but never being seen and getting the 'low' chaos ending.
Detection affects chaos level in Dishonored 1. Likewise the game is filled with little sidequests and NPC interactions that also affect chaos level. I wouldn't put much stock in fan wikis at the best of times, but that page you're talking about actually _does_ support both of these points if you scroll down to the "Increasong Chaos" section.
You could call the system morality based in either game, but the point is that Dishonored 2's implementation of it is nothing more than a binary choice of lethal vs non-lethal. More importantly it is arbitrary, it has little in the way of logical connection to changes being made to the game world through the player's actions.
In Dishonored 1 the "good" choices tended to lead to lower chaos and the "bad" ones to higher chaos, but those choices were also more carefully set up narratively so that the high chaos made sense. It's all smoke and mirrors at the end of the day, but Dishonored 1's implementation had more variables, and thus more depth, and it was woven more seamlessly into the levels.
@@yewtewbstew547 it’s not lethal vs non-lethal it’s morality vs amorality the heart will tell you a secret about any person you’re about to kill that hypothetical persons secret will then decide their chaos value
Overseer A is a overseer to help and to feed the homeless
Overseer B steals donation money
Overseer C raped his sister
If you kill A high chaos count
If you kill B medium chaos count
and C chaos goes down
If you kill A and C but not B chaos stays the same
If you kill B and C chaos faces a slight uptick
If you call A and B chaos is higher than all of the above
@@monarch6662 You are partially right, but even if you kill the worst person in The Isles, the chaos meter would still go up, it will have a lesser impact than killing a good person. Nonetheless, it will negatively influence the world.
@@davidjerabek848 I’m gonna do three play throughs I’ll be back in 2 days to either prove you wrong or accept that I’m wrong
yeah, the story in D2 is quite shallow, its like it was thought of in the last month of development, or a side effect of bending the knee, who knows...
Leadhead's review and this review sum up my exact issues with dishonored 2. This game just didn't seem right in so many ways, but you two hit the nail on the head for explaining why.
just a different perspective here, looking at the same thing. Dishonored 2 accounted for more possibilities so that none of them was absolutely required. this was a deliberate design decision that offers the player more freedom to explore not only the world but also the gameplay. Dishonored doesn't quite have that playground element that its sequel has, and the simulation in general feels less complex in the original title, making the experience feel more curated and linear. that spontaneity that makes Dishonored 2 really spark feels more scripted in Dishonored.
i'm not sure about the point you're trying to make about differences between the two games' use of the chaos system, it seems like splitting hairs so i'll let that be (the point about peoples' ~deaths~ causing higher chaos (yes because of a decision, okay, but it's still based on deaths... *shrug*)). also players generally thought the game made high chaos a more viable way to play the game, so i don't really know what to say there. the combat in the game is definitely improved in 2. the story isn't why i play the Dishonored series. i enjoy the cartoonish, colorful characters, the enthusiastic voice acting, but i don't really scrutinize the details of the story. for me it just lays the bedrock for the gameplay, which is really the reason i play. the world-building, the mise en scene, i love all that, because it draws me into the world. Dishonored is a great game, but a lot of people including me prefer the sequel because how much more expansive the gameplay is by comparison. most of the criticism i've seen leveraged against the game is with regard to story (justifiably so, i won't argue that) and performance on PC, which still is not ideal (i just play at 60 fps for a 100% smooth experience, tho 120/144 would be preferable).
i think it's great that Dishonored 2 gives you the option to play it without any powers. this becomes a completely different experience from playing the game with them, and that's the point. i didn't play the game without powers till probably my 20th run, and i loved the experience. it was definitely more challenging than with powers, but that just turned my focus to different elements of the gameplay that weren't priority before. you seem to be stuck on this idea that certain abilities should be "required" to accomplish things, but that strays away from the design philosophy of providing myriad ways of overcoming an obstacle. heck, you're not even required to fight Delilah, if you find a way. it's not intuitive, but it's rewarding to discover for oneself.
you talk about being able to use your powers to inhabit animals in order to infiltrate as wasteful and that it's easier just entering another way, but you neglect to mention that doing so allows you to enter a completely different part of the building (in this case Addermire Institute). entering this way might actually preserve magic because you're able to circumvent a large number of enemies. and different abilities have different pros and cons. for instance, using shadow walk you don't have to worry about knocking out and hiding a guard.
EDIT: i do like how your BioShock critique addresses the lack of actual player agency as they're forced to inject himself with a plasmid. Dishonored 2 allows you to progress without that plasmid shot. what's wrong with that for people who want more of a challenge and to play in a specific way?
TLDR (didn't mean to write an essay lol): Dishonored may have a better, more cohesive story, but Dishonored 2 has better gameplay.
also one nitpick is the lack of re-recording commentary that contains statements are just not true. as i recall you saying in your Elder Scrolls video, a lot of people tend to listen to videos like podcasts rather than explicitly watch them, so many people may not be aware of your corrections.
"Dishonored 2 accounted for more possibilities so that none of them was absolutely required. this was a deliberate design decision that offers the player more freedom to explore not only the world but also the gameplay."
That's being put in question here, what's being criticized is that this approach makes up for a less tight experience. The more options you put in your game the less work you can put into them.
The point about the different chaos systems is that one is significantly worse (or at least more intellectually insulting) and less complex than the other, I thought that was quite obvious with him saying so. As far you not having a problem with the story that's irrelevant. Just because you don't mind doesn't mean it doesn't matter.
@@naunau311 i don't see how the sequel has a significantly worse chaos system than the first, even after his explanation. they work on the same basic premise.
i don't find that true at all, that having more options means necessarily less work. there are trade-offs. if you want fewer options, play without powers?
idk i just disagree with his take.
also, for shits and giggles: ...just because you think it matters doesn't mean it does. to me the story doesn't really interfere with my enjoyment of the game. to me it's like critiquing a Mario story, with a few more folds. i just don't care. for me it's all about the systems that it creates, and there are simply more of them, and more involved, than in the first game. do you, tho. if you like to think of the story as being more essential to your enjoyment of the game, then go ahead.
@@wormshero9891 Mario has a good story, if you haven't realized that then that's just sad.
@@naunau311 be happy
The outsider should not have been given a backstory. The near cosmic horror and intrigue he brought gave the first game spice. Instead he ended up being some edgelord goth I knew from highschool.
I think this video has put some answers to what I couldn't put my finger on since playing Dishonored 2. Thankyou
That and I think because Dishonored 1 in its entirety felt like but one small vignette of the world so when I saw it continued corvo and Emily's story I was already disilusioned.
I know a lotta ppl dont agree with this but at least the core gameplay and level design is a ton better than in the 1st dishonored
I disagree. The core gameplay is worse. Crouch delay? Everything feels choppy and sluggish. Enemies have less combat techniques.
It feels like Bioshock Infinite syndrome. Pretty setting, soulless gameplay.
@@nicknickson3650 lets agree to disagree
I love Dishonoerd 2 even more than Dishonoerd to be honest
Bad taste
I wonder how the game would've gone if it was literally just about Corvo being sent to Karnaca by Emily to investigate the political and almost very real war between the Serkonos Elite, (Duke and Grand Guard.) the Howlers and the Overseers. The game could've easily been another game about political twists, plots, betrayals with some Magic thrown in and the Outsider being as dejected and monotone about his morbid curiosity about whether things will turn to shit or if Corvo will, 'surprise' him again. I literally only just had this idea and in my head, I can see it playing out FAR better than repeating the Delilah Dilemma... Again.
P.S For Jindosh, I personally believe one of the choices should be to leave him alone and just rescue Sokolov. Yes, Jindosh is a bit of a sociopath. But... Sokolov was no better in his younger days. I mean, in Dishonoured 1, he literally has a poor woman locked up and has consciously infected her with plague, or maybe she already had it before being brought there. Either way, he keeps her locked up like a lab rat, lies to her that he's working to cure her and everyone else. But then notes in his journal that she'll probably die the next day. So... Really, I don't see Jindosh as any more of a monster than I saw Sokolov. I think that's where the game fails, truly. Besides Breanna, Luca and Delilah... None of the other targets really deserve their non-lethal or lethal eliminations.
@@serathaevistille995 They planned something where you could just leave with Sokolov but apparently scrapped it due to budget reasons
I agree with most of this, though I think the game would be worse off without the trifecta of Corvo's powerset, Emily's powerset, or no powers, and I think it's pretty incredible they kept the levels engaging for all three while keeping them distinct. I do however concede that it would have been really interesting to see them balance the whole game around some of the absurd stunts you can pull off with Far Reach (especially when combined with Agility and the right bonecharms) the only mission where Far Reach truly shines is the second one since there's so much open space to the area past the docks.
I also think you could have focused a little more on the improvements to the fundamentals of the combat system, maybe I'm alone in this because I don't hear it mentioned much but while the mechanics are relatively similar other than combat knockouts the game in their fancy new engine and all that just feels so much more solid than the first game.
Yeah, the fundamentals of the fights are much better - and that's not even lmentioning the much improved non-lethal takedowns, where the first game was very limited.
@@arthursimsa9005 Not to mention proper animations for slide KO's, lethal or nonlethal, as well as a billion more animations based on angle and enemy state. It isn't a big deal on its own but I think it really adds to immersion if the player character has variety of animations that look good in combat.
If they make a sequel, they should choose a different group of people. They could have someone from a noble family as the main character with their family falling from grace due to noble in-fighting and have the game be about rebuilding their family back up.
Arkane has gone on record saying that Emily and Corvo's stories are finished and if they ever return to the franchise it would be with new characters.
I've really enjoyed going back through your library lately Pat. Also, I've never taken the time to watch the frame-by-frame of Corvo using stop time to murder the guards during the coup (03:47). I'm pretty impressed that there are actually frames depicting each one's death, definitely a cool little inclusion, even if there are some inconsistencies.
I had an almost no lethal playthrough as Corvo, being able to posses everyone in a room one after the other and I had the bonecharm that leaves them unconsius when you leave them.
I don't care what anyone says the clockwork Mansion is the best level ever made in any video game
It isn't. It's too linear and bland. It barely has high spots.
Interesting video. On the last topic, i think Delilah has been dishonored as well, if we take her backstory as the truth. Bastard daughter of Emily's grandfather, kicked out with her mother for the crime of Jessamine, mother dead from the debtors prison, raped or at least pressured into sleeping with Anton Sokolov. If her story is true, she definitely was Dishonored.
I do agree that if we get a Dishonored 3, I don't want her to return in any form greater than obscure lore, or a name drop from an old coven member or something.
I disagree with the use of the term 'appeasement' here. The writing decisions of the 2010's were not the desperation of helpless studios; they were the marketing decisions of powerful publishers seeking returns on investments during a controversy. That activists were never fully satisfied with this was ultimately a feature, not a bug.
but, most importantly, WE got an inferior product as a result. which is all that actually matters.
@@512TheWolf512 They could have made corvo a bonus post game mode without the need to balance him, like vergil in dmc or infinite ammo in resi... They chose to balance for two characters instead.
The activists bound their hand a certain way, but the execution fully rested on them.
I've always been curious about this balance: how much is appeasement/fear and how much is cynical manipulation. I'm sure both are at play in different proportions for different projects. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the rooms where these decisions are made.
@@Momohhhhhh You accidentally put in the world a great idea for a stealth corporate espionage game which takes into the account the zeitgeist of the industry you're spying on.
13:57 Dude, I love that even while criticizing plot holes you offer a plot-consistent explanation as for why the thing could have happened. It's easy to strawman; it's more creative and entertaining to demonstrate the thing itself, fixed.
13:45 I believe this argument is actually wrong. In the district where you go into the witches palace “forget the name but it’s where you can talk to stone Delilah” you can witness a female guard pushing her old friend off a roof. Great video though,
Is that the only instance? Damn thats a real Token.
I think if they were going to include Delilah in the pattern of non-lethally 'dishonoring' your targets by robbing them of what makes them a threat, they should've figured out a way to make Delilah give up the throne on her own. Delilah isn't dangerous because she has magic powers, she's dangerous because she's the most ambitious person in Dunwall. The Outsider beats you over the head with the idea that she fought tooth and nail to get where she is today, regardless of any literal magic powers. I think it would've been really interesting if they found a way to rob her of her ambition, either by showing her definitive proof that her plan could never work, or showing her that it would all be futile even if she succeeded. Maybe you could sit down and have a debate with her over her long term plans, or somehow call the Outsider during the final mission and have him appear to give Delilah all of his memories. He'd be showing her what it's like to have all that power at your fingertips for thousands of years. If he's eternally bored of his position, Delilah would eventually get bored too, and there's nothing she could do to fix that since she'd be making herself omnipotent. Having that kind of revelation would break her, and I think it'd be really cool to see her realize this in real time and just give up on the spot. I'm sure somebody else has already come up with a better version of this idea, but it's just something I found myself thinking about while watching this video
this video felt wayyyy shorter than it actually is (which is a good thing!)
It's good to critique things you love, though my impression of what you said I find off is the powers segment. Like the rat swarm isn't only a lethal option, its great for summoning a swarm and possessing a rat to sneak past enemies. Also while there may be easier options in the game it defeats the point of the game and that's self challenge. What I love about Dishonoured games is it's kind of down to you to create your own fun with the powers and see what you can do with them. Otherwise it's a fair critique, good video man. keep it up :D
I played the shit out of the first one and the second game. I enjoyed them but the story in this one is kind of eh...
These are really solid, logical and high quality reviews, man. Poignant and tight. Kudos.
Also to add to the idea of playing as Emily's kids, instead of having bad dialogue to tell that corvo is her dad you could have a scene where you see his grave that says "beloved father"
the high chaos for psycho killing the traitors can be justified in a doc on guards cabin, after you kill mortimer ramsey. Some of them are being threatened
Dishonored operates on a soft magic system. In a way, it's a lot like a fairy tale, which is what makes it so charming to me.
Appreciate the shout-out to my article in Boulder Punch's cameo!
I really liked Dishonored when it was the one of the first "Immersive Sims" I'd played (Deus Ex: Human Revolution was my gateway), but soured greatly on it during an attempted replay. Stealth no longer held any interest as I had recently renounced savescumming, and the pure combat route simply felt too easy to succeed in with minimal tactical variation or creativity. Moreover, the game's systems design problems reared their ugly head and I found myself nonplussed by the mandatory checklist exploration for character upgrades, unbalanced randomization of bone charms, abusable recharging mana, and generally overpowered magic abilities to the point that I felt no desire to continue after I got softlocked by quicksaving right after the mission script bugged out.
Your first Dishonored video suggested that I might have a better time doing a "stealth until I get caught" playstyle, and I really ought to give the DLCs another chance with that mindset (I never got around to them as I had originally intended to play them after replaying the base game). For what it's worth, Dishonored is nominally the kind of game I love (stealth/combat sandbox with compact but open-ended levels, exploration focus intersecting with RPG elements) and I actually enjoyed some aspects like the chaos system -- I thought it was a nice abstraction to simulate the effects of your actions on the world and it's rather nuanced as you point out, even if it could have used some expansion. Unfortunately, I get the impression from this video that none of my problems with the first game are addressed, but rather exacerbated in the sequel with the degraded chaos system, bone charm crafting bloat, and especially the fact that challenges are designed around zero character upgrades. As much as I probably should give Dishonored 2 a try, everything I hear about it just puts a bad taste in my mouth, with little of the praise I hear for the level design really spurring my interest.
Well, at least I still have Deus Ex, System Shock, and Thief to go back to.
It's a game worth playing and seeing for yourself. Honestly I'm kind of shocked you haven't tried the sequel considering your other preferences.
Everyone laments how they don't make games like those anymore yet are so resistant to giving the games that try to carry on the legacy a chance.
@@josebenavides1850 did you even read what he said
What they did to the Outsider in Dishonored 2 and Death of the Outsider was outright criminal.
Boulder Punch called me out for not going into detail on that topic.
gotta agree. in the first game he's a lot colder, more apathetic. now he seems to care more about Corvo/Emily and takes up a more energetic personality. his constant exposition also doesn't help him at all.
@@frostsoul4199 Not only that but all the time you met him in the first game he was always above your character speaking in a cool and collected manner, demonstrating that the only reason you are worth his time is because he finds you worthy and he doesn't ask you if you want his mark or not, you are playing his game and even if you never use his powers there will always be a reminder that he's watching you in your hand.
Now he literally stoops down to your level speaking in a brash and hasty manner as if he were your equal or even inferior to you at times, with the only reason he has any screen time is because the plot demands it, he's no longer an active character driving the plot, he's a tool (in more ways than one).
@@themilkman9451 Sounds like a classic example of over explaining a mysterious character and ruining them.
With a character like that, mystique is always better than knowing.
@@planescaped see: the wizard of oz
I loved your review of dishonored 2 more than the first game due to overviewing gameplay abilities and comparing them to each other, as i feel like most of the reviewers don’t care much about. But i love to learn it still- given i have zero hours a day to play games myself, not even talking about testing every mechanic the game has. So deeper reviews like yours really help me to not miss out on conversations with my friends who played the games I didn’t- thanks a lot for doing it ! :0 I appreciate it a lot c:
I heavily disagree with the fact that far reach is a downgrade. Yes, the mechanics are confusing when you first start using it, but there are so many things you can do with far reach that you can’t even attempt to accomplish with blink. People act like it is this totally broken accident of a power that the developers just threw in to be alternative. In reality, I think it actually solves the big problem that blink had, which was its low skill ceiling.
I started with the Morrowing Retrospective, and man. Talk about someone who's quickly become my top go to for long form content. Falling asleep? Patrician. Playing a game that I can split attention? Patrician. Studying? Patrician. Chores? You get the idea. Love your content man, I'm rewatching the Morrowind vid, and will inevitably come back to the Oblivion vid as well.
I felt like playing the dishonored games and it seems im not the only one. I think I've seen 5 different videos on this series within this month, 2 of which I've seen today. Thisll be the 3rd. Weird...
I started re playing dishonored 2 and was going for a low lethality run... The bone charm that allows you to choke people faster was the very last I found...
you can knock people out when you're sliding btw
There is a female guard who on the high chaos route with attempt to pressure a woman into a theaft, but ultimately ends up throwing the woman off the roof.
In low chaos it's a similar start, but they're revealed to be in a relationship and planning to run away together (no murder this time)
Man I don't care for the tangent about door codes. Who cares where the 3 numbers came from. Let's move it along to what actually matters.
I think I'm one of the few who likes what they did with the outsider. The new voice was so much better and I liked his story.
@Starless Fully agreed. The "mystery box" gimmick that J.J. Abrams deservedly gets mocked for nowadays is precisely because he was fine with leaving it closed because he knew it was empty.
The unraveling of a mystery has a quality all of its own, but there's actual relevant narrative learning necessary for the catharsis to take place.
Wow you two are clowns. The voice is worse and his story was waaay worse than his mysterious persona.
The way daud traps her and how she is trapped in dishonored 2. In dishonored she knows it didn’t work and that she’s in the void. In dishonored 2 she is trapped in her perfect reality with no knowledge that she is in the void
Dishonored 2 & Dragon Age Inquisition devs:
"So who should be the main villain of this new game?"
"How about the schmuck from the previous title's DLC?"
"Genius!"
I’ve always just described d2 as “story bad gameplay good” it’s just the easiest way I’ve understood why I don’t like this game as much as d1
tbh, d1 story isn't great either, it's predictable, but gameplay is great
@@aktivniigomes1989 I agree but when you rehash the same story I’d argue that’s lame story telling.
There’s no like themes like with mgs2 rehashing mgs1’s primary story beats it’s really just dishonored 1 all over again in short.
I think you could definitely follow similar story beats to the first game but it just didn’t work for me with dishonored 2
Damn fine review. Thanks for all of the effort that you put into it!
These videos are exactly what I need in my life. I love your analytical and in-depth studies and I'm so glad I found you through Morrowind!
56:30 Hey, thanks for checking out the Nerevarine Prophecies TES3MP server! I enjoyed your Morrowind analysis.
Good to see you're alive and well
But how did you escape the Soul Cairn?
@@RestlessRebel I come from a timeline where I didn't meet that fate, but my future remains uncertain.
Now, i've watched probably dozens of videos on Dishonored and its sequels (mainly because i have this strange love/hate relationship with the series) but for some combination of reasons i really liked yours. Maybe it's the serious delivery or the fact that you go really in-depth on the design and effect of every aspect of gameplay and story, but it was strangely enthralling. Anyways you got a sub!
Dishonored is one of my absolute favourite games. I do enjoy the second one too, but it's just sad to see how it fell flat. Oh well, be happy that it happened in the first place I guess.
I think it was also over shadowed by all the great games that came right after it
Dishonored 2 is a better version of the first game
@@commandershepard7110 Nope. Less focussed design, and an insanely-bad story.
@@commandershepard7110: while I respect your opinion since D2 is a lovely looking game with vibrant levels... it just isn't as good as Dishonored. I still replay Dishonored from time to time(just finished it yesterday to try and get myself in the mood to finally beat Dishonored 2 after quitting it multiple times) and it isn't perfect but it's a masterpiece compared to D2 in terms of the story and the chaos system. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't finish D2, but this video has definitely given me some much needed insight. D2 is weighted down with duel stories, overly aggressive female marketing and a very bad story which just feels like a bad version of the first game.
@@JG-tr8ph like dishonored 1 was any better
I saw in a interview with one of the developers that the Jindosh level was meant to have 3 outcomes with one being you spare him. He says that mostly everyone in the dev team wanted that but couldn't make it due to Budget
Something about the Upgrade System you didnt mention, was how bad some of the Upgrade placements were.
I got BOTH Sneaking Boots only the LAST Level, which makes Stealth playthroughs in the first NG extremely annoying.
And I never even got the faster chocke out Bonecharm.
For me both the dishonored games were all about levels, utterly beautiful environments and the fantastic smooth catlike movements through them.
The story, lore, backstory could definitely have been better but for me both were revenge plots...."take back what is yours"....and I am fine with that.
Dishonored 2's levels and the incidental details are just through the roof.
Just soaking in the atmosphere of each of them is what gives me a high.
Flawed but beautiful games imo.
25:06 Killing all those guards on m1 means that Corvo or Emily were already tyrannical rulers meaning that Karnaca had been effected by Dunwall's chaos for all the years that Emily had been empress
Except... they hadn't been surrounded by guards that were committing a coup de tat up until that point, so that makes no sense. Traitors get executed, but their direct employees that are doing their jobs.
"Designers had ideas and the story came later". Yup. As it should be. I didn't care about the story in D1, I certainly didn't care about the story in D2 but I also love them both dearly. This is an immersive sim, not role-playing game therefore: "It's magic" is perfectly acceptable justification for the plot. The only thing that truly bothers me about the plot in D1 and D2 is that I can't skip it all, I have to sit through Outsider's and Delilah's bullshit. Criticising D2's plot is like criticising an album based on it's cover art - it's not unimportant, but it shouldn't dominate the review.
"The chaos of the first level affecting the second level of Karnaca is a betrayal of the entire premise of the chaos system." You must not have noticed that the same thing happens in Dishonored 1. Depending on how many guards you kill in Coldridge, the three civilians walking the waterfront the next night will say different things. In particular, on high chaos, the woman will say, "I just saw some terrible things," but on low chaos, she'll comment on how she was just given help by someone else and that there's still good in the world.
Except it makes sense. A night has passed, if you slaughtered guards left and right there is a good chance a family member or a wife would become enraged or insane at the news and lash out, when they otherwise would be kind persons.
Also there are more weepers around
I was super excited when I saw the thumbnail. Once again, this was incredibly well thought out and my kind of content. Keep it up.
im still mad about the voice casting for Corvo, he seems so suave and elegant as a mute protagonist in the first game, then the sequel has him played by BELETHOR from SKYRIM doing the most cliche gravelly gruff voice, what a huge miss
Stephen Russell is better known for playing Garrett from the Thief games.
Honestly, I heard him moreso as Mercer Frey
In the first game I pictured him as having a whisper quiet borderline raspy voice as he's been brutal tortured for 6 months and has most likely been constantly screaming most of that time.
Both Dishonored and Dishonored 2 are my favorite games ever. I completely acknowledge that both games, story wise, are lacking but in terms of level design and mechanical adaptability the games are pretty much second to none. Dishonored 2 specifically offers so much variability in playstyles that I've played it over 10 times and still don't get bored. I think that games as a medium can have value based on mechanical merit even when the story might not be perfectly drawn or match up exactly to what we experience mechanically. Are the Dishonored games flawed? Certainly all media is. Do I think Dishonored 2 is massively entertaining and offers a strong expansion upon the mechanics of the original? Unequivocally yes.
The story was lacking for sure but I liked how open your options were by having so many powers available. Also NG+ was my favorite implementation, if Dishonored 1 had it I would be jumping for joy. I hated that Dishonored didn't have NG+ so I couldn't have Bend Time for level 2 and so on
It immediately soured me on the game when, only a single area after setting up the mystery of the Crown Killer, Dishonored 2 solved the mystery. The game couldn't hold onto the secret of the identity of a mysterious serial killer and build up intrigue for more than five seconds before blurting out a name. Each time a new antagonist is focused on, that person only matters long enough for one level to play out, then is easily discarded.
I guess Dishonored 1 kind of did this, but for some reason it comes across worse in 2. Maybe because 1, despite giving Corvo distinct targets in each level, still obviously had a team of people (his supposed allies) clearly working together to betray him. Whereas 2, which asserts that a conspiracy of people brought Delilah back, doesn't do much to show them working together besides the one flashback (or rather, actual witnessing of past events).
It's a shame, because yeah, the level design is super cool. Some of the character design is also super cool (though I will never forgive designers for making Emily's equivalent of Corvo's iconic mask... pulling a scarf up over her lower face). Jindosh's prosthetic fingers, Grim Alex's conceptualization of herself... but Arkane apparently forgot to write the story part of the game until a day before the deadline, and had an overworked intern type whatever came to mind without any edits.
This game's potential makes me so bitter.
i still love both games though. the second game story was alright, but it didn't save the game. the gameplay did. hopefully they can make a third game and have Corvo and Emily on missions side by side with each taking down aristocrats.
Dude I just wanna say that I fucking adore this video. I love both Dishonored games and if future Arkane games took notes of the shit you talk about in this vid it would be amazing. Somewhat excited for Deathloop.
I totally agree on your point about level design needing to accommodate too many play styles. And to expand on that, it's been a really bad trend for the last 10 years.
Especially in stealth games or games like the latest Ghost Recon games. When you can choose stealth, assault, lethal, non lethal or even dropping in from the sky in a game and the only consequence is some path might be easier, then players will do the quicker option even if it's out of character. Devs need to stop being afraid of the outrage brigade and design games how they want them to be played, not design to make every player happy at once
Only in Dishonored are the non-lethal options objectively more evil than the lethal options.
I did always feel like there was something missing from Dishonored 2. I could play 1 forever, but 2 was just odd.
Dishonored 2 was way more fun to play for me. Levels were a lot bigger and more interesting. The story wasn't that good but I didn't care much for the story in the first game either.
While I never played 1, it was hard not to laugh out loud when the villian struts in at the start, says shes the rightful ruler, and people just immediately believe her with no proof.
Its the laziest way Ive ever seen a character get reset to zero for a sequel.
I thing I hated about the Jindosh stuff is that, imo, this "low-chaos" way is way more cruel than just straight up killing him, because losing oneself really ain't all that low chaos
Most of the low chaos ways to deal with targets are specifically cruel acts of mercy, besides probably Daud and Delilah. The Pendleton twins get their tongues cut out and forced to work in their own mines for example
@@martinnguyen1477 and High Overseer Cambell becomes a Weeper you can find in the Flooded District if you brand him.
the royal conservatory has a female grand guard throwing a civilian off of a roof for not stealing something for her, i could go in game and figure out her name but im too lazy. also i primarily use dopelganger to distract large groups of enemies during nlg runs when the way is blocked by a bunch of npc's or there are >4 enemies and i simply dont upgrade the middle tree and just use it as a distraction and then it disorients the enemies nearby the dopelganger when it disappears, also using it in conjunction with mesmerise and the domino effect skill you can take out groups of 8+ enemies non lethally in a situation where it'd be either super time consuming or damn near impossible without powers (you would have to make a noise with gunfire or hitting a wall or the floor near an enemy to lure him away from the group)