Currently have 50mm, they are fine in all but the windiest conditions, in those conditions I start to suffer handling issues. And in has been very windy here in the mid-Atlantic recently
Moved from Black inc sixty to enve 3.4 hookless and live Houston can get 200ft of elevation on a 100mile ride and I felt no difference at all. I ride 10k plus miles per year . Honestly I think 3.4 enve is best depth. My opinion
I'm rocking 64s on my road bike - live in a mountain area. I'm a bigger guy so the cross wind doesn't impact me except on a few descents on a windy day. I'm not sure if they're any faster and bet they're slower on climbs but they look badass and thus inspire me to ride. Plus I LOVEEEE that sound of them cranking up to speed - WHOOSH WHOOSH. Pure bliss my dudes - feel like a monster when they're cranking. If I got serious about racing / KOM chasing I might have a different perspective.
I hear ya. The 64’s felt stable to me, but I’m also a bigger guy. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts if you jumped onto a set with half the depth. It’s definitely better in crosswinds.
For me, somewhere between 35~42mm seems to be the sweet spot. It does not excel at any one thing, but is sufficiently light and adequately aero for nearly all conditions and the types of ride I do.
I’ve got a set of 32mm and a set of 45mm deep wheels that I swap around on my Aethos. The 32mm are lighter by almost 300g but for whatever reason I love my 45s. There’s something aesthetically pleasing about the wheels being deeper/thicker looking than the tires from a side perspective.
Have 65, 50, 42mm wheels. Now I just ride aluminum 32mm or 30mm for a do it all wheelset. The best do it all wheelset is the one you train on the most. If I would go deep carbon I would pick 38mm or 40mm at the most. It's the best depth for both flats and climbing.
I'm on a set of OG Zipp 303 Firecrests circa 2016 that I've carried across two bikes which now sit on my S-Works SL6. Unbelievably the brake tracks are still in excellent condition and the wheels probably won't be replaced until they outright fail. Fast enough to not be slow, light enough to climb, and shallow enough for windy days, true Jack of all trades.
I've been riding the Enve 3.4AR for a few years and absolutely love them. They're super compliant and durable, yet fast enough to hang on during group rides. I've decided to opt for the new SES 4.5 as I wanted a more road-specific wheel set as I'm now running G23's on my gravel bike. Ultimately, I think it depends where/how you ride and if you're looking for a do-it-all wheel versus a road or gravel specific option.
Yo man, I greatly appreciate your channel. Your explanations are always candid and thoughtful. I'd love to see an actual scientific study of wheels. I would bet the findings are entirely consistent with your observations (i.e., it doesn't matter that much at all a majority of the time).
To put it simply, deep wheels become a MASSIVE source of drag the second your rounding a long curve, or there is any slight cross draft. They are more aero when you are riding straight and directly into the wind, but only in this situation. It’s like the aero bikes of ten years ago. They were knife thin and flat from the front but from the side those wide bars were like sails.
Thtat's actually not true. Countless tests show that deep wheels are even more faster in cross wind situations than in straight line windtunnel like headwind compared to shallower wheels. But only aslong as it is controllable. Say if in a time trial you have cross winds and the steering gets too twitchy, so you have to take out power and grab your handle bar, all the benefit will be gone and you probably would have been faster with a shallower front wheel ;)
Wind tunnel data suggests the opposite, deeper wheels make more difference when the yaw angle increases (which also suggests that slower riders benefit more). Some profiles even generate negative drag at sufficient yaw angle, acting like a sail to a small extent.
I think 45 is as deep and most people need. My dad has a set of ENVE 6.7s on his Cervelo S5 and I've never enjoyed riding that bike. Feels no faster than my cheap Lun 45s that I have on my Cento 1. I feel like the deep wheel craze is all down to marketing and aesthetics because they look cool as hell. Sure they're faster in the wind tunnel but that's a highly controlled environment with conditions that we will rarely ever see on the road. I've never gotten the urge to go deeper because even on my relatively deep wheels now, I'm still getting dropped by folks on the shallowest of alloy training wheels. I just need to get better! More people need to spend more riding and spend less money on bling!
Extremes imo are great for all-out-efforts on time trials. Super deep for flat TT (ex. Enve 6.7) and super light and shallower for hill climb TT (ex. Enve 2.2). However, for everyday riding that encompasses fast flats and hilly climbs, I love my 3.4s. I’d consider 4.5s, but definitely not deeper.
You’re absolutely correct especially if you do a lot of group riding. Most of benefit setting on somebody’s wheel. Plus most of that speed is made up after 24 miles an hour or so so my opinion which everybody has one is lighter I think over 38 to 50 is a good balance.
I think anywhere around a 40mm is a good all-around where you get the most of its aero, climbing, and weight. I had a pair of Zipp 202s and those were just as fast as any deeper wheel I've had but they felt better on climbs and were more responsive at 32mm. I think the range would be between a 32-45, after that they just get heavier and harder to control in a crosswind.
@@outdoorbros_I had the 202s on a Giant TCR Advanced Maglia Rosa Edition with full SRAM Red mechanical and it came in at 14.9 lbs. Light and responsive.
Hi there. Thanks for sharing. I believe a 45mm is a do it all. Maybe a little bit more 48mm or a combination of 45mm front and 55mm rear. But it depends on what type or bike you have and type of ride you do
All these reviews are hilarious!!! I have several wheel sets, each a different depth, with the deepest set being 60/88….the actual weight difference is not even that noticeable…it’s minuscule….we’re talking a few grams…not Pounds. Only difference that is honestly realistic and is not just someone trying to sound like a “bike whisperer” is riding deeper wheels in cross winds. On a clear day and no wind, you won’t notice a difference climbing or on the flats….honest wheel speed is in the hubs and tires
interresting! im actually considering buying 62mm front and 80mm rear DT swiss 1100 dicut DB. what are your thoughts on those? atm im running 62mm front and rear
Went from standard rims to 40mm carbon. On my regular straight in-out 60km route I was consistently 1.5-2 km/h faster depending on the wind. Have 50mm now and loving it.
@@wx3054 cannot say as the setup is very different. But am getting 60mm on another bike which will allow me to compare more directly with the 40mm. I expect it will be a somewhat marginal gain compared to the 40mm.
Thanks for this video. I'm in need of a new bike but am unhappy with at least one thing in every bike I've looked at. I am considering building my bike and getting the wheels I want. I currently have 35mm Aeolus but always wanted deeper.
I'm happy with my 35mm deep dt swiss wheels. Used to ride 46mm wheels. I did not like them in strong crosswinds though I'm sure one can get used to it a bit. But I'm a lighter small rider and the wind in my area can be sometimes very strong.
i've been riding the Princeton Grit 4540 with white industries hubs and i've got to say, i like the ride feel compared to my 454nsw and 404FC. They are immune to crosswinds, accelerates fast, and surprisingly holds speed around 38-42kmh significantly well (for us mere mortals). Of course the 454nsw and 404FC can hold its speed better, but the sensation of an agile wheelset does make the ride feel a tad better IMHO.
I roll the Boyd 44mm wheel set and it is as close to a do it all as I can find. Fast when I am taking a pull up front and steady in the stiffest cross wind. Don’t mind the hills either!
I was previously running 60mm deep wheels on my Rarmac. Recently went down to a staggered setup with the Enve 4.5. Haven't looked back and been loving the shallower front wheel
Living in the Midwest we don’t have many crazy climbs. A lot are rolling hills. I have zipp speed 404 wheels on my venge and they seem to get the job done for what my area calls for
I rock 38mm front and rear for fast group rides and climbing rides.40mmF 45mmR would be the Dream setup for All Occasions. I say between 40mm-55mm is ideal
I feel the speed difference from a 40 mm v 50 mm v 60mm wheel set. The 40 being a premium wheelset raced at world 🌎 tour level and my 60 mm which is meant to be the brands 2nd tier wheelset just feels super fast 💨. Rim depth does make a difference for me in speed in the real world.
I have the enve 3.4. I love them and i am very fast on flat and on mountains. I wondered this winter if i would see any difference if i buy enve 5.6/ roval rapide or dt swisss arc 1100 62
It’s the usual industry marketing pushing the 2 watts saved at 100kmh fantasy. It’s certainly conditions/rider/usage dependent. Doing mostly climbing with frequent gusty winds I far prefer the shallower sub 40mm options.
45-55ish mm is probably the perfect do it all wheelset if you can keep the weight below 1600g. The ~1500g range is light enough that you probably won't feel disadvantaged going into the hills but you have enough aero for the flats.
I tend not to focus on internal width. I focus more on EXTERNAL width. I'm still all about the aero regardless of depth. So I believe in the 105% rule. I also think we have reached a point where tyre width is getting a bit TOO wide to the point where the gains in comfort and RR are overshadowed by the hit to aero the extra width is causing. SO with that said. 😅 I believe the ideal External width is likely to be in the 28-30mm range. At this width 25mm tyres (GP5000) balloon out to around 26.5-28mm which works great with the 105% rule. My personal wheels (LightBicycle Falcon 56's) are 56 deep x 30 wide. And my GP5Ks 25s measure exactly in at 27.5 which is perfect for 105%.
not familiar with reserve road wheels? looking at the 34/37s w DTS-180 any thought on quality and other features? i see in your videos you have a couple of wheelsets from this guys
Depth of wheels is not that crucial as tyre and rim transition (105% rule is real). Even if you have 64mm deep wheels but tyre is 2mm wider than rim itself in that case rim will never catch air from tyre, so 64mm deep wheels are maybe like 40mm if you have wider tyre. That reserve wheels are super wide and in combination with right tyre width they may be at same level of speed as a 64mm wheels. so your feelings are quite right :).
The parameters presented sounds very similar to my mind like the latest roval rapide clx… regarding which, I would posit that in isolation, arguably, the depth dimension may give a misleading impression. Last night approaching 70kph descending on 50mm CL front 62mm CLX rear wheels, in about as strong cross winds as I’ve ever experienced, I noticed the subtlest death wobble wanted to develop and while I went with it for some time, resisting the urge to press on faster, as the road negotiated its way around a bend, the wind, perhaps by virtue of the landscape’s geometry, (fairly cliff-like along one side) in super quick succession pushed the front rim hard from alternating sides*, hard enough it did take some strength to resist. 5 to 7 times with a little bit more than a second, literally felt like someone with two hands gripping the front wheel and trying to turn it left-right-left-right. It occurred to me at the time that specialized claim regarding the newest rapides, with their much wider front width rims (and overall rim width and cross section form into a less bladelike form than the previous generation such as one rides). Anyhoo, the overall depth of the rims, arguably, should be considered in concert with the overall width, the particular overall profile form / shape, and no doubt, the resulting total overall profile of the wheels with the recommended width tyres installed. I don’t know, but between the rims you’ve ridden, did you notice differences in cross wind performance as regards the cross section form of rims with equal rim depth?
I have been riding the roval 32 and Alpinist 33 for the longest time. Last year I took the leap and bought a 50mm wheel. My take on deeper wheels are I can feel it holds the speed better like there is a kind of propulsion that keeps it rolling. I don’t think I become faster putting the same effort. I just become less tired.
I ride the rapide cl 2 and there great in calmer conditions but as soon as the wind/gusts crank up about 25-28mph as I’m a light rider that rides in my own it can get dodgy ultimately making me slower. I suspect I’ll end up sizing down to the alpinists. As I like to ride in all conditions. That will allow me to ride in all but the windiest of days
Have to agree. I'm sure in a wind tunnel the deep wheels are faster. I've been riding Enve 3.4 ar's, Zipp 404FC, and Roval CLX 50's on my Tarmac. The Enve's are more comfortable because a 28c tire is around 30mm wide on that wheel. Way smoother feeling and I can't tell much difference in speed.
I agree with you. I ride an Enve 3.4 and it’s more comfy and faster. I also have the Zipp 404FC and I don’t see/feel the speed. I will now purchase a 50/62 DT Swiss 1100 and stop right there. Why you may ask? Getting back to hooked rims and purely for my flat rides when it’s not windy and occasional hills.
@outdoorbros I had a big gash on my Zipp 404, and Zipp doesn’t recommend inner tubes. Inner tubes as my fail safe on the road along with patches on a very unlucky day. Hopefully I don’t get to experience it 🙏🏻
Single biggest improvement you can make. That said, like all things, there's a diminishing marginal return, ie, the difference between a 20 and a 55 is huge. The difference between a 50 and a 65 is minimal.
I think the Zipp 404s or Enve 3.4s are the most popular all around wheels and are fast and capable for most any kind of road riding. I have Zipp 808s and 404s and I think the 808s are faster (boy they sure sound like it), but I never ride the 404s and think I have the slow wheels today.
@outdoorbros im debating on getting the princeton peak 4550's. I heard they are next level for a do it all wheelset! Anyone you know running the Princeton's?
In Wisconsin I’m looking at new rims for a new wheels and since we have wind and hills. Well I think I nicer old school set of Krysten’s from mavic with an upgraded bearings would work for the rolling hills our winds make it like your pinning all day long lol. My trek can with bontrager 30mm I think . But I can say from my old Rolf’s from 2001 are faster but the bikes areo maybe just enough and a lighter wheel that responds a bit better and rides nice and after riding the mavis that are shallow to flat rims . They maybe best for the rough windy hilly Wisconsin roads. …… maybe.
You have a misconception there. Deeper Wheels are not "Faster" The amount of power you need, too ride the same speed is less, with a wheel that is more aero. Therefore you can maintain your speed longer with the same poweroutput.
I tested dura ace c24 with only 23mm turbo cotton on my Binanchi oltre xr1 vs roval rapide clx 40 ceramic on route 43 km and I was able average 35 kmh on DA vs roval only 32 kmh It is weird , Rovals are light and roll like butter but I don have same feelings as with Dura ace c 24 that have better inerta , or something it is hard to describe , of course hi rims look fantastic but it is really quicker , and ceramic bearings too . Now I am bulding my new tarmac sl8 pro frame And after this experiences want to add dura ace c 50 wheels I will try same route with new bike I will see my average speed
Yes , but it will take me longer time to build it, it is a lot of money for me but it is worth to wait few months , I only ordered frameset now tarmac pro 10 r blue satin onyx and other component later this year . I sold my older Bianchi Oltre xr1 ultegra - it was great bike , but my friend have tarmac sl6 pro and i tried this tarmac and felt something different , stiffer frame , better transfer power like formula 1 so I decided to sell my Bianchi and want build sl8 pro frame, ultegra di , dura ace c 50 , and roval cockpit so I will see
I feel the difference in flat terrain i have 61mm dt swiss 1100 and i easily make a higher speed average with them than my 47mm corima wheels by 3 or 4 km/h after 80km ride
But it was in Leviticus 40:44 where the prophet said, “Knowest thou the direction of the wind? Thou shalt gird up thy loins and battle the crosswinds of the devil.” He goes on to say, “Be thou not tempted by the depth of Potiphar’s wife’s wheels.” Or something like that- I’m paraphrasing here. Haha.
@outdoorbros_ 😒 🤔 I get that this is meant in jest, but at least you got some of us to look for Leviticus 44😂😂 (there's only 27 chapters in Leviticus). Potipher's wife was a liar and a cheat. I'm sure her wheelset was probably stolen. Here's a real verse for you Bible cyclists out there: 2 Samuel 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.😊
No they dont make you faster *(BUT!)* The deeper the rim the more aero it is yes but the deeper it is the harder to maintain and accelerate that with climbing too, another thing with deep rims are fighting againsts cross winds 25-35mm rims are ideal for climbing as its very comfortable and easier to climb 40-50mm rims are a bit of a balance of the 2, has good comfortability, it has a decent aerodynamics and its a bit easier to climb 55-88mm are extremely aero but they arent comfortable its heavier, harder to climb etc etc Disc Wheels the one trending in fixed gears, track bikes, triathlons are completely aerodynamic wheels but they suffer from weight, wind, and they arent very comfortable Basically the deeper it gets the harder it is to climb and accelerate but can maintain better speeds that is if you can reach it same concept with 12 speed groupsets no offense to some but others upgrade their 9/10 speed groupsets to 12 speed even tho they only use the 2/3rd from the lowest gear saying that the extra 2 cogs for climbing is barely used deems them useless
1350grams or less, the corect tyre to rim interface, a half decent trailing edge profile on the rim and who cares about the rest... now on the question of looks, here we have a problem, and the answer largely depends on the rim width, this influences the tyre choice that will dictate the ratio between width and chord. So for a tyre that's sitting 26mm wide and 23 tall you could get away with a 30mm deep rim front and back. Apparantly 26 mm tyres are out of vouge these days so maybe 33 to 35 deep is safer! Refer back to point 1 regarding weight and suddenly price becomes a real pain in the but! For the record I run 30mm deep carbon Fulcrums and I lust for a set of 35 deep, hooked and sub 1350 gram itailian rims, largely because they would look amazing, IMHO. PS I even run rim brakes so goodness knows that my opinion is actually worthless:)
Is sram red faster than force, is the 6000 dollar frame faster than the cheaper 5000 frame……the circle of life continues forever😂 end of Day its the body the sits on the bike that matters
in the real world there is no difference. ride paris roubaix on deep wheels and you curse them. ride in crosswinds and you curse them.ride uphill and you curse them. it is a gimmick to empty your wallet.
Don’t know if you have looked through the peloton just recently but a lot are riding much shallower wheels than in recent years. Ultimately if you feel uneasy deeper rims for ever reason then a shallower rim is better ultimately making you “faster”. But 10mm in rim depth is hardly going to make a difference to cross wind stability, I find a lot of that boils down to the tyers and the shapes they produce on the rims conti I find make wheels quite unstable (just my experience)
What’s the perfect depth? 👇🏻
45-50mm
Currently have 50mm, they are fine in all but the windiest conditions, in those conditions I start to suffer handling issues. And in has been very windy here in the mid-Atlantic recently
38mm Rovals! Aero gains and climbing capabilities
Totally agree
~40mm is pretty golden
Moved from Black inc sixty to enve 3.4 hookless and live Houston can get 200ft of elevation on a 100mile ride and I felt no difference at all.
I ride 10k plus miles per year .
Honestly I think 3.4 enve is best depth. My opinion
I'm rocking 64s on my road bike - live in a mountain area. I'm a bigger guy so the cross wind doesn't impact me except on a few descents on a windy day. I'm not sure if they're any faster and bet they're slower on climbs but they look badass and thus inspire me to ride. Plus I LOVEEEE that sound of them cranking up to speed - WHOOSH WHOOSH. Pure bliss my dudes - feel like a monster when they're cranking. If I got serious about racing / KOM chasing I might have a different perspective.
I hear ya. The 64’s felt stable to me, but I’m also a bigger guy. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts if you jumped onto a set with half the depth. It’s definitely better in crosswinds.
Another bonus to mid-depth wheels, bumming tubes from friends is much easier if you don’t need 60mm+ stems or valve extenders.
So true. It’s always a struggle to find the guy with the 80mm spare tube stem 🤦🏼♂️
That isn't bad, I ride tubular for all riding I do
@@rxdesigner I would only go tubeless if can work as good as car tubeless
@@rxdesignerIf you think this way a nice long expensive taxi ride i see in your future.
For me, somewhere between 35~42mm seems to be the sweet spot. It does not excel at any one thing, but is sufficiently light and adequately aero for nearly all conditions and the types of ride I do.
Great points!
I’ve got a set of 32mm and a set of 45mm deep wheels that I swap around on my Aethos. The 32mm are lighter by almost 300g but for whatever reason I love my 45s. There’s something aesthetically pleasing about the wheels being deeper/thicker looking than the tires from a side perspective.
Have 65, 50, 42mm wheels. Now I just ride aluminum 32mm or 30mm for a do it all wheelset. The best do it all wheelset is the one you train on the most. If I would go deep carbon I would pick 38mm or 40mm at the most. It's the best depth for both flats and climbing.
I'm on a set of OG Zipp 303 Firecrests circa 2016 that I've carried across two bikes which now sit on my S-Works SL6. Unbelievably the brake tracks are still in excellent condition and the wheels probably won't be replaced until they outright fail. Fast enough to not be slow, light enough to climb, and shallow enough for windy days, true Jack of all trades.
Perfect setup!
I've been riding the Enve 3.4AR for a few years and absolutely love them. They're super compliant and durable, yet fast enough to hang on during group rides. I've decided to opt for the new SES 4.5 as I wanted a more road-specific wheel set as I'm now running G23's on my gravel bike. Ultimately, I think it depends where/how you ride and if you're looking for a do-it-all wheel versus a road or gravel specific option.
Thanks for sharing and thanks to all those who made comments.
You got it. Thanks for the comment!
Yo man, I greatly appreciate your channel. Your explanations are always candid and thoughtful. I'd love to see an actual scientific study of wheels. I would bet the findings are entirely consistent with your observations (i.e., it doesn't matter that much at all a majority of the time).
To put it simply, deep wheels become a MASSIVE source of drag the second your rounding a long curve, or there is any slight cross draft. They are more aero when you are riding straight and directly into the wind, but only in this situation. It’s like the aero bikes of ten years ago. They were knife thin and flat from the front but from the side those wide bars were like sails.
Agreed here. I’ve been riding an even more shallow set of wheels for the last three weeks and it’s so true.
Thtat's actually not true. Countless tests show that deep wheels are even more faster in cross wind situations than in straight line windtunnel like headwind compared to shallower wheels. But only aslong as it is controllable. Say if in a time trial you have cross winds and the steering gets too twitchy, so you have to take out power and grab your handle bar, all the benefit will be gone and you probably would have been faster with a shallower front wheel ;)
Wind tunnel data suggests the opposite, deeper wheels make more difference when the yaw angle increases (which also suggests that slower riders benefit more). Some profiles even generate negative drag at sufficient yaw angle, acting like a sail to a small extent.
I think 45 is as deep and most people need. My dad has a set of ENVE 6.7s on his Cervelo S5 and I've never enjoyed riding that bike. Feels no faster than my cheap Lun 45s that I have on my Cento 1. I feel like the deep wheel craze is all down to marketing and aesthetics because they look cool as hell. Sure they're faster in the wind tunnel but that's a highly controlled environment with conditions that we will rarely ever see on the road. I've never gotten the urge to go deeper because even on my relatively deep wheels now, I'm still getting dropped by folks on the shallowest of alloy training wheels. I just need to get better!
More people need to spend more riding and spend less money on bling!
Def look cooler - which is about 80% of the issue for me :D
@edmondthompson7525 I agree with you 💯 percent sir
Extremes imo are great for all-out-efforts on time trials. Super deep for flat TT (ex. Enve 6.7) and super light and shallower for hill climb TT (ex. Enve 2.2). However, for everyday riding that encompasses fast flats and hilly climbs, I love my 3.4s. I’d consider 4.5s, but definitely not deeper.
You’re absolutely correct especially if you do a lot of group riding. Most of benefit setting on somebody’s wheel. Plus most of that speed is made up after 24 miles an hour or so so my opinion which everybody has one is lighter I think over 38 to 50 is a good balance.
No doubt- it's an awesome balance of speed, aerodynamics and weight.
I think anywhere around a 40mm is a good all-around where you get the most of its aero, climbing, and weight. I had a pair of Zipp 202s and those were just as fast as any deeper wheel I've had but they felt better on climbs and were more responsive at 32mm. I think the range would be between a 32-45, after that they just get heavier and harder to control in a crosswind.
I'm sure the 202's are a dream setup for climbing.
@@outdoorbros_I had the 202s on a Giant TCR Advanced Maglia Rosa Edition with full SRAM Red mechanical and it came in at 14.9 lbs. Light and responsive.
Hi there. Thanks for sharing. I believe a 45mm is a do it all. Maybe a little bit more 48mm
or a combination of 45mm front and 55mm rear. But it depends on what type or bike you have and type of ride you do
I'd go (as I do...) for 33~35mm depth. You get lower weight, less problems with crosswinds and maximum climbing capability.
All these reviews are hilarious!!! I have several wheel sets, each a different depth, with the deepest set being 60/88….the actual weight difference is not even that noticeable…it’s minuscule….we’re talking a few grams…not Pounds. Only difference that is honestly realistic and is not just someone trying to sound like a “bike whisperer” is riding deeper wheels in cross winds. On a clear day and no wind, you won’t notice a difference climbing or on the flats….honest wheel speed is in the hubs and tires
Hahaha, “bike whisperer!” But if you had to choose a depth, hub and tires, what would you go for?
interresting! im actually considering buying 62mm front and 80mm rear DT swiss 1100 dicut DB. what are your thoughts on those?
atm im running 62mm front and rear
Went from standard rims to 40mm carbon. On my regular straight in-out 60km route I was consistently 1.5-2 km/h faster depending on the wind. Have 50mm now and loving it.
Nice! That’s a great depth.
Did the shfit from 40 to 50 make any tangible difference?
@@wx3054 cannot say as the setup is very different. But am getting 60mm on another bike which will allow me to compare more directly with the 40mm. I expect it will be a somewhat marginal gain compared to the 40mm.
Thanks for this video. I'm in need of a new bike but am unhappy with at least one thing in every bike I've looked at. I am considering building my bike and getting the wheels I want. I currently have 35mm Aeolus but always wanted deeper.
I think these are a great wheelset and right in the sweet spot of weight/aerodynamics.
Nice. The Reserve 40/44 are on my shortlist, too. What hub do you have, DT Swiss 350/240/180? What is your opinion on the quality of the wheels?
I have the 180 hub. It’s an exceptional wheelset. I’ve ridden it on the tarmac, mog and crux- works well across the board.
I'm happy with my 35mm deep dt swiss wheels. Used to ride 46mm wheels. I did not like them in strong crosswinds though I'm sure one can get used to it a bit. But I'm a lighter small rider and the wind in my area can be sometimes very strong.
i've been riding the Princeton Grit 4540 with white industries hubs and i've got to say, i like the ride feel compared to my 454nsw and 404FC. They are immune to crosswinds, accelerates fast, and surprisingly holds speed around 38-42kmh significantly well (for us mere mortals). Of course the 454nsw and 404FC can hold its speed better, but the sensation of an agile wheelset does make the ride feel a tad better IMHO.
Great points! What do you like about the White Industries hubs?
Love how smooth they are, good engagement, and paired with the grit, i'd say they are one outstanding do it all wheelset. @@outdoorbros_
I roll the Boyd 44mm wheel set and it is as close to a do it all as I can find. Fast when I am taking a pull up front and steady in the stiffest cross wind. Don’t mind the hills either!
Such a good depth!
I’m running 32mm hooked tubeless and it’s perfect for me. I do a fair amount of climbing on my rides so I appreciate a lighter wheel
I did the same I was riding 66mm and now Im riding 45mm and I fee more confident on cross wind here in Seattle
A break from the crosswinds is always welcomed.
I was previously running 60mm deep wheels on my Rarmac. Recently went down to a staggered setup with the Enve 4.5. Haven't looked back and been loving the shallower front wheel
Living in the Midwest we don’t have many crazy climbs. A lot are rolling hills. I have zipp speed 404 wheels on my venge and they seem to get the job done for what my area calls for
Nice!
I rock 38mm front and rear for fast group rides and climbing rides.40mmF 45mmR would be the Dream setup for All Occasions.
I say between 40mm-55mm is ideal
I tend to agree here. Pair it with the right internal width and you’re off to the races.
Great site! Question for your old SL7. 26 or 28 tires?
Thanks! 28, without question.
I feel the speed difference from a 40 mm v 50 mm v 60mm wheel set. The 40 being a premium wheelset raced at world 🌎 tour level and my 60 mm which is meant to be the brands 2nd tier wheelset just feels super fast 💨. Rim depth does make a difference for me in speed in the real world.
Great points! I think so much depends on the terrain. 35mm wheels doesn’t do much in Miami, but would be great in Boulder.
I have the enve 3.4. I love them and i am very fast on flat and on mountains. I wondered this winter if i would see any difference if i buy enve 5.6/ roval rapide or dt swisss arc 1100 62
+1 to 3.4 (AR) at 39/44mm depth. 40-45mm seems to be the happy medium in my experience.
+2 Enve 3.4s all day
3.4’s are definitely the sweet spot, do-it-all depth. Did you end up buying the 5.6’s? I was surprised when they discontinued that depth.
Agreed!
Yessir!
It’s the usual industry marketing pushing the 2 watts saved at 100kmh fantasy.
It’s certainly conditions/rider/usage dependent. Doing mostly climbing with frequent gusty winds I far prefer the shallower sub 40mm options.
Chris, is it better to have a deeper wheel set for a heavier rider?
Good question. I’m not sure there’s an exact science there. I’d check weight limits on various wheelsets to see which have higher limits.
45-55ish mm is probably the perfect do it all wheelset if you can keep the weight below 1600g. The ~1500g range is light enough that you probably won't feel disadvantaged going into the hills but you have enough aero for the flats.
Great points. What do you think is the proper internal width?
I tend not to focus on internal width. I focus more on EXTERNAL width. I'm still all about the aero regardless of depth. So I believe in the 105% rule. I also think we have reached a point where tyre width is getting a bit TOO wide to the point where the gains in comfort and RR are overshadowed by the hit to aero the extra width is causing.
SO with that said. 😅 I believe the ideal External width is likely to be in the 28-30mm range. At this width 25mm tyres (GP5000) balloon out to around 26.5-28mm which works great with the 105% rule. My personal wheels (LightBicycle Falcon 56's) are 56 deep x 30 wide. And my GP5Ks 25s measure exactly in at 27.5 which is perfect for 105%.
That good since I'm looking to build 50mm estimate be 1309g, I want compare of like 38, 50, 88, disc wheel so can know the difference in watts or time
not familiar with reserve road wheels? looking at the 34/37s w DTS-180 any thought on quality and other features? i see in your videos you have a couple of wheelsets from this guys
I’ve been nothing but pleased with the 40/44’s and I’d imagine that the 34/37’s would be the same. The DT SWISS 180 hub also feels fantastic.
Depth of wheels is not that crucial as tyre and rim transition (105% rule is real). Even if you have 64mm deep wheels but tyre is 2mm wider than rim itself in that case rim will never catch air from tyre, so 64mm deep wheels are maybe like 40mm if you have wider tyre. That reserve wheels are super wide and in combination with right tyre width they may be at same level of speed as a 64mm wheels. so your feelings are quite right :).
Good points!
The parameters presented sounds very similar to my mind like the latest roval rapide clx…
regarding which, I would posit that in isolation, arguably, the depth dimension may give a misleading impression.
Last night approaching 70kph descending on 50mm CL front 62mm CLX rear wheels, in about as strong cross winds as I’ve ever experienced, I noticed the subtlest death wobble wanted to develop and while I went with it for some time, resisting the urge to press on faster, as the road negotiated its way around a bend, the wind, perhaps by virtue of the landscape’s geometry, (fairly cliff-like along one side) in super quick succession pushed the front rim hard from alternating sides*, hard enough it did take some strength to resist.
5 to 7 times with a little bit more than a second, literally felt like someone with two hands gripping the front wheel and trying to turn it left-right-left-right.
It occurred to me at the time that specialized claim regarding the newest rapides, with their much wider front width rims (and overall rim width and cross section form into a less bladelike form than the previous generation such as one rides).
Anyhoo, the overall depth of the rims, arguably, should be considered in concert with the overall width, the particular overall profile form / shape, and no doubt, the resulting total overall profile of the wheels with the recommended width tyres installed.
I don’t know, but between the rims you’ve ridden, did you notice differences in cross wind performance as regards the cross section form of rims with equal rim depth?
You switched from an SL7 on 64s to and SL8 on 45s how do you know it’s not the SL8 frame making up the difference?
The SL7 had both the CLX 64’s and Enve 4.5’s. SL8 has only ever had the 4.5’s and 2.3’s.
I have been riding the roval 32 and Alpinist 33 for the longest time. Last year I took the leap and bought a 50mm wheel. My take on deeper wheels are I can feel it holds the speed better like there is a kind of propulsion that keeps it rolling. I don’t think I become faster putting the same effort. I just become less tired.
What you’re feeling is called “sailing effect”
I ride the rapide cl 2 and there great in calmer conditions but as soon as the wind/gusts crank up about 25-28mph as I’m a light rider that rides in my own it can get dodgy ultimately making me slower. I suspect I’ll end up sizing down to the alpinists. As I like to ride in all conditions. That will allow me to ride in all but the windiest of days
Interesting. I had a set of alpinists on the Aethos and immediately swapped them for the Enve 4.5’s. But, I’m a bigger guy…
@@outdoorbros_ I only weigh 60kg perhaps I’m just more sensitive or just a pu@sy lol
Have to agree. I'm sure in a wind tunnel the deep wheels are faster. I've been riding Enve 3.4 ar's, Zipp 404FC, and Roval CLX 50's on my Tarmac. The Enve's are more comfortable because a 28c tire is around 30mm wide on that wheel. Way smoother feeling and I can't tell much difference in speed.
I agree with you. I ride an Enve 3.4 and it’s more comfy and faster. I also have the Zipp 404FC and I don’t see/feel the speed. I will now purchase a 50/62 DT Swiss 1100 and stop right there. Why you may ask? Getting back to hooked rims and purely for my flat rides when it’s not windy and occasional hills.
Exactly. Sometimes we get so hyper-focused on depth and I think there’s a lot more that goes into a wheel than we often consider.
+1 for hooked rims.
@outdoorbros I had a big gash on my Zipp 404, and Zipp doesn’t recommend inner tubes. Inner tubes as my fail safe on the road along with patches on a very unlucky day. Hopefully I don’t get to experience it 🙏🏻
Enve 3.4’s for where I live. Best aero to weight ratio and handle best in cross winds.
This is definitely the sweet spot for climbing, imo. Maybe 4.5 depth for flats (if that suits surroundings)
Single biggest improvement you can make. That said, like all things, there's a diminishing marginal return, ie, the difference between a 20 and a 55 is huge. The difference between a 50 and a 65 is minimal.
The more I try different wheelsets, the more I realize that there is truly an art to depth, width, stiffness, etc.
I think the Zipp 404s or Enve 3.4s are the most popular all around wheels and are fast and capable for most any kind of road riding.
I have Zipp 808s and 404s and I think the 808s are faster (boy they sure sound like it), but I never ride the 404s and think I have the slow wheels today.
It’s hard to beat the *woosh* *woosh* of a deep wheelset. I rode the 404’s years ago and really liked them.
I wish I was a good enough rider to be able to tell the difference. 😁
Ahhh, come on! I’m sure you are!
@@outdoorbros_ ha ha!
The 40/44 appear to be very wide. Will you use them with your tarmac ? With what width tyres?
I used them on the tarmac first and really liked them. 28mm Grand Prix 5000 TL’s. They were perfect.
@outdoorbros im debating on getting the princeton peak 4550's. I heard they are next level for a do it all wheelset! Anyone you know running the Princeton's?
They’re great wheels and lots of depth options
Interesting that Jumbo seem to be riding shallower wheels this year across multiple terrain. They se to be at the forefront of this stuff
in the real world shallow wheels give more compliance. it is less exhausting.
Not during TDF for sure?
In Wisconsin I’m looking at new rims for a new wheels and since we have wind and hills. Well I think I nicer old school set of Krysten’s from mavic with an upgraded bearings would work for the rolling hills our winds make it like your pinning all day long lol. My trek can with bontrager 30mm I think . But I can say from my old Rolf’s from 2001 are faster but the bikes areo maybe just enough and a lighter wheel that responds a bit better and rides nice and after riding the mavis that are shallow to flat rims . They maybe best for the rough windy hilly Wisconsin roads. …… maybe.
You have a misconception there.
Deeper Wheels are not "Faster"
The amount of power you need, too ride the same speed is less, with a wheel that is more aero. Therefore you can maintain your speed longer with the same poweroutput.
As a climper I think( 35-37-38mm) the perfect depth, So I think the depth is different for each rider( climper, sprinter,....etc)
I tested dura ace c24 with only 23mm turbo cotton on my Binanchi oltre xr1 vs roval rapide clx 40 ceramic on route 43 km and I was able average 35 kmh on DA vs roval only 32 kmh It is weird , Rovals are light and roll like butter but I don have same feelings as with Dura ace c 24 that have better inerta , or something it is hard to describe , of course hi rims look fantastic but it is really quicker , and ceramic bearings too . Now I am bulding my new tarmac sl8 pro frame And after this experiences want to add dura ace c 50 wheels I will try same route with new bike I will see my average speed
Keep us posted- sounds like a great build.
Yes , but it will take me longer time to build it, it is a lot of money for me but it is worth to wait few months , I only ordered frameset now tarmac pro 10 r blue satin onyx and other component later this year . I sold my older Bianchi Oltre xr1 ultegra - it was great bike , but my friend have tarmac sl6 pro and i tried this tarmac and felt something different , stiffer frame , better transfer power like formula 1 so I decided to sell my Bianchi and want build sl8 pro frame, ultegra di , dura ace c 50 , and roval cockpit so I will see
I feel the difference in flat terrain i have 61mm dt swiss 1100 and i easily make a higher speed average with them than my 47mm corima wheels by 3 or 4 km/h after 80km ride
Nice! I didn’t seem to notice much a difference.
I believe it was Socrates who said, “a shallow wheelset is not worth riding.”
But it was in Leviticus 40:44 where the prophet said, “Knowest thou the direction of the wind? Thou shalt gird up thy loins and battle the crosswinds of the devil.” He goes on to say, “Be thou not tempted by the depth of Potiphar’s wife’s wheels.” Or something like that- I’m paraphrasing here. Haha.
@outdoorbros_ 😒 🤔 I get that this is meant in jest, but at least you got some of us to look for Leviticus 44😂😂 (there's only 27 chapters in Leviticus). Potipher's wife was a liar and a cheat. I'm sure her wheelset was probably stolen. Here's a real verse for you Bible cyclists out there: 2 Samuel 22:11 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: and he was seen upon the wings of the wind.😊
No they dont make you faster *(BUT!)*
The deeper the rim the more aero it is yes but the deeper it is the harder to maintain and accelerate that with climbing too, another thing with deep rims are fighting againsts cross winds
25-35mm rims are ideal for climbing as its very comfortable and easier to climb
40-50mm rims are a bit of a balance of the 2, has good comfortability, it has a decent aerodynamics and its a bit easier to climb
55-88mm are extremely aero but they arent comfortable its heavier, harder to climb etc etc
Disc Wheels the one trending in fixed gears, track bikes, triathlons are completely aerodynamic wheels but they suffer from weight, wind, and they arent very comfortable
Basically the deeper it gets the harder it is to climb and accelerate but can maintain better speeds that is if you can reach it same concept with 12 speed groupsets no offense to some but others upgrade their 9/10 speed groupsets to 12 speed even tho they only use the 2/3rd from the lowest gear saying that the extra 2 cogs for climbing is barely used deems them useless
Good points!
Mine is 50mm, does it all well:)
Seems to be the do it all depth.
1350grams or less, the corect tyre to rim interface, a half decent trailing edge profile on the rim and who cares about the rest... now on the question of looks, here we have a problem, and the answer largely depends on the rim width, this influences the tyre choice that will dictate the ratio between width and chord. So for a tyre that's sitting 26mm wide and 23 tall you could get away with a 30mm deep rim front and back. Apparantly 26 mm tyres are out of vouge these days so maybe 33 to 35 deep is safer! Refer back to point 1 regarding weight and suddenly price becomes a real pain in the but! For the record I run 30mm deep carbon Fulcrums and I lust for a set of 35 deep, hooked and sub 1350 gram itailian rims, largely because they would look amazing, IMHO. PS I even run rim brakes so goodness knows that my opinion is actually worthless:)
I bought the same wheels recently and I have found them WAY faster. Probably 1.5 km average faster. Just my experience.
What's yours all-time favourite wheel-set?
4.5 on SL7 in pancake country to do it all. 5.6 is faster though. 3.4 climbes better.
Is sram red faster than force, is the 6000 dollar frame faster than the cheaper 5000 frame……the circle of life continues forever😂 end of Day its the body the sits on the bike that matters
Agreed. Gear is secondary to so much.
in the real world there is no difference. ride paris roubaix on deep wheels and you curse them. ride in crosswinds and you curse them.ride uphill and you curse them. it is a gimmick to empty your wallet.
You think so? Which depth do you ride? I’d argue that my 64mm wheels felt differently than my 32mm wheels.
@@outdoorbros_ 35 mm is perfect for allroad use. here in belgium on cobbles with 50-60-80 is a nightmare
Enve 3.4AR
Deeper wheels are faster. If they were not, racers won't bother using them because they are heavier than shallow wheels.
WRONG. I WILL NOT BELIEVE THE HYPE.
Don’t know if you have looked through the peloton just recently but a lot are riding much shallower wheels than in recent years. Ultimately if you feel uneasy deeper rims for ever reason then a shallower rim is better ultimately making you “faster”. But 10mm in rim depth is hardly going to make a difference to cross wind stability, I find a lot of that boils down to the tyers and the shapes they produce on the rims conti I find make wheels quite unstable (just my experience)
they must follow the logic of big firms. milan sanremo fastest time was ridden on 30 wheels .in the real world it is the engine on the bike.
40-45mm 👨🍳💋
Agreed.
never risk your instagram with shallow wheel nonsense