If you play on the unpatched version of the game, you can encounter these rot-infested Ancestral Followers yourself, no modding required. They have the ability to spray Scarlet Rot at the player, so some of you will probably be happier that they're gone.
Always find it cool to see development changes, the Astel being maybe meant for Radahn's arena would also explain the whole Farum Azula location theory thing too. Good video as always, love to see the models up close for soulsborne games.
It's very strange that they didn't at least have that one random Follower be the Rotted type they already made. I think it would be fascinating if there was exactly ONE unique rotted Ancestral Follower in the ENTIRE game.
He's carrying an immunity charm, so I think it implies that's how he is unaffected. Maybe a couple rotted ones on the other side instead of so many flipping basilisks, though? That could have worked...
@@indigo7898 Well, even if you didn't spot the visual difference in game, it just means the devs could've laughed all the harder when the random Lake Follower started spitting Rot at unsuspecting players.
quit commenting you dont have to every video zulie knows you're a fanboy so you cant go just 1 video without you talking to yourself cause 150 comments in zulie hasn't responded to 1 yet lmaooooo
I like how the lone follower is carrying the +1 immunity charm. The charms of status resistance are all visually themed after budding horns, plus it explains why this one Ancestral Follower is alive down here.
There might also be a still-extant lore connection, via the Blind Swordsman. The Blind Swordsman who sealed away the Outer God of Rot has a connection to the Ancestral Followers; it's said he was aided by a fairy, and the Ancestral Followers are associated with the Siofra River ('Siofra' meaning 'fairy' in Gaelic). So maybe, that Ancestral Follower is still there because he's keeping an eye on the god his tribe helped imprison.
@@senuhet13 Malenia isnt the outer god of rot, she has a curse related to him, think like that: Outer god of rot : God Malenia : Jesus Is the same realtionship with Marika and the Grater Will/Elden Beast. And Astel is a star like creature that fell in the Eternal Citys (Nokron and Nokstella) thats why there are 2 malformed astels in Siofra River. In resume, we dont know anything about the outer god of the scaflet rot, exvluding the fact that malenia is its "Jesus" and that aparently itis improsonated on the Lake of Rot
The one Scarlet Rot-based dagger seems very much modeled after a scorpion's stinger. It feels like, earlier in their plans, the general scorpion-like skeleton of the Astel we currently have may have fully well been used for this sealed God of Rot (the Scarlet Flower, I think? Malenia seems to be referred to such as a proper object and whatnot when it's corrupting her in Phase 2 of that fight.) And going by that, it seems possible Astel might not have even at all resembled what it looks like now, in that phase of development. Even now, with Astel being there at the end of the Lake of Rot, there's still the stinger dagger that seems to suggest the God of Rot taking a shape like that. Which... to me, at least, indicates that Astel and this other God of Rot might be alike in origin.
That's a great catch. Might have been nice to split the difference and have the Followers and the Kindred both be present at the Cloister and fighting amongst each other, sort of like that Black Knight curb stomping Ghru in the Demon Ruins of DS3 or the two Darkwraiths charging through the Ghru outside of the Abyss Watchers' boss arena. (Poor Ghru!) Would have added to this narrative that the Ancestral Followers stand guard to keep the God of Rot at bay, while the Kindred are trying to unleash it.
@@pedrorodrigo9560 Astel is in no way connected to Greater Will, it isn't confirmed at all and for all we know, it's a separate entity. Cause everything connected to GW has gold-motif/uses Holy Attacks, while Astel uses Magic.
Not having Astel fall from the sky underground is a missed opportunity, since it implies that the night sky doesn't exist above the world but actually exists throughout it like background radiation, stars showing through were the "worldness" is thin. Really woulda fit the cosmic horror vibe.
My guess is that they came up with the idea of him falling from sky very early on in development, he's from the stars after all. But it doesn't fit well into the lore as he came down long before the game takes place and is already down there, so they shifted that to a phase transition for Radahn since he's a known master of gravity of magic. I always figured that the Astels were sent down to places that directly opposed The Greater Will, and Radahn holding back the stars was meant to stop them continuing to come down. Selia was connected to the Eternal Cities and is actually right above them/Mohg's Palace (heck even the exact place of the Selia Crystal Tunnel Fallingstar Beast seems to be directly over the palace if you place the underground map over the overworld map), Astel Naturalborn of the Void is obvious, Astel Stars of Darkness is fairly close to the Haligtree, Mt Gelmir and the manor with the Serpent. The only slightly odd one is in Altus Plateau but even that is seemingly above Deeproot Depths or Ainsel River - or could be linked to the Wormface blight creatures you see all over Altus.
I've always liked that take on the night sky in stories; normally it's treated as 'the void', which can be witnessed where the 'realm' is weakest, or damaged the most (e.g. by someone/something powerful).
@@Psykout What they probably intended imo was that killing Radahn would liberate the stars and have consequences and changes to the world,with the astel creatures coming down and you facing them in the open world,but this brought several difficulties they just gave up and moved them to underground areas.
@@gilvanvieira1815 I think it's more likely that in a rewrite they had Astel attached to the fall of the Eternal Cities, rather than it being because of technical difficulties. Since he would then be underground, rather than scrap the work done on the meteor attack, it got moved to Radahn. Zulies latest video on Mohg showcases how Mohg also possibly came about from a rewrite.
The true lore for this place is that the Ancestral Followers were running a scarlet rot spa but the tourists from Caelid overtook the place. Trust me, my uncle works for Vaatividya.
i get the impression that the ancestor spirit worshippers are meant to sorta be shown as being bumped out not only by the erdtree order, but by ALL the new gods that are taking over, in this case, the lake and the rot god, but elsewhere by the blood god as well. That lone wandering guy is the last survivor because of the talisman he carries, which you steal from him.
@@SquattingSamurai Presuming he's talking about the pillars, they have buttons to raise up platforms out of the rot to make crossing the lake without proccing rot possible, and ends with solid ground to fight the dragonkin soldier from and a raised platform with one of the purple meteor guys that drops a sword.
I went to the lake of rot in a playthrough yesterday and was so confused by the random Ancestral Follower there. Thank you for answering literally ALL of the questions Zullie.
@@Gamerguy-ud1zo He's the source of the Immunizing Horn Charm +1 talisman. A guaranteed drop when you kill him. Him sticking out is probably why they put the talisman on him to begin with.
@@Gamerguy-ud1zo I noticed him cus my character was afk at the shore, when I came back to the screen, he was a far away spooky looking silhouette, was a genuinely eerie moment til I realized it was just an ancestral follower
I find the grand cloister FASCINATING. The whole underground lake of rot area is so interesting to me. I feel like there could have been so much more to that area but there ultimately wasn't.
In that sense it almost feels like the Lost Izalith of Elden Ring in terms of feeling incomplete, obviously to a MUCH lesser extent though. Or maybe I'm just saying that because having to walk through the rot reminded me too much of the lava, lol.
The tablets held by the statues look like the ones found in the ogre’s chests, the stone things that the carriages mount to with the stake in their back. Could this have some relevance? The ogres and the statues also share some aesthetic features, such as their scrawny - yet imposing - build.
The tablets have actually already been identified as the "Imago Mundi"-an ancient Babylonian map of the world. The Tarnished Archaeologist has a good video on the ancient dynasty.
I do wonder why astel is on the other side of the lake of rot when it was the scourge of the eternal cities. Maybe it should have been closer to Nokstella and the lake of rot moved a bit further out to a optional connecting area you can find. It's also a shame that, other than being a roadblock to the alter, it doesn't seem to link to Ranni's goals at all, other than being a thematic "Stars and Space" final boss for her quest.
Keep in mind that the lake of rot has not always been as it is, at some point it was the site of an eternal city or at least its ruins, after all, the lake of rot is the reason for the stagnation and progressive sinking of Liurna. In addition to the fact that in current versions the presence of ancestral followers is still maintained by the survivor in the middle of the lake with a talisman to improve immunity. And also, it does make sense thematically because the Astels are sent from the greater will, making her presence the obstacle to complete Ranni's quest to free the world from the influence of the outer gods. What should be noted, it seemed the regular movement of the greater will due to the presence of fallenstar beast in the Volcano Manor (Home of a faction against the erdtree), Sellia (The possible remains of an eternal city on the surfaces, and current house of sorcerers) and Leyndell (The home of the greater will, so it can be assumed that it would be sent to defend itself). In addition, the presence of Astel is presented to us from the beginning when we enter the depths of the Ainsel river, so I think the obvious thing is to finish that area with his presence as a boss
I wonder if the lake of rot is an eternal city? It is too much in ruins to tell but the fact that the lake had the ancestors and the ancient beast kinda makes it like the first eternal city we find. Maybe there was more planned with the lore of malenia, the outer god, and the swordsman at the beginning? Malenia was unusually pretty displayed in promotional material for an optional boss. As for Astel and Ranni, I have a theory. Throughout the lands in-between there are falling star beast in meteor holes. A falling star beast is just a larva of Astel, the full grown falling star beast near volcano manor without it's mane hair texture has an Astel skull. Maybe these meteors were meant to open up as part of defeating Radahn? Astel would have been in one of the meteors Radahn was holding back?
Astel was sent down to destroy the Eternal Cities when they crafted the Fingerslayer Blade which lines up exactly with Ranni's questline. _The hidden treasure of the Eternal City of Nokron; a blade said to have been born of a corpse._ _This blood-drenched fetish is proof of the high treason committed by the Eternal City and symbolizes its downfall._ _Cannot be wielded by those without a fate, but is said to be able to harm the Greater Will and its vassals._
I think Astel was always intended as the final fight for Ranni's quest, but the trek through the lake of rot was not. Astel now sits in that Ancestral Spirit arena, which connects to the Moon Alter only via an out-of-place waygate. A 3rd fight a Rot Ancestral Spirit would also have tied the Ancestral Followers zones together nicely.
No, FromSoft's games need to take ZERO influence from Nintendo's cancerous bullshit. They're literally at the opposite ends of the spectrum in every way that matters and I'm thankful for that.
@@Facepalm9 They might be seperate types of games, but that doesn't mean that the devs shouldn't take inspiration from looking at other games. BotW was most likely a massive inspiration to Elden Ring
I like the replacement. When you go through the Area's for Ranni's Quest. You see full view on your journey the effects the outer gods have on the people of lands between. They either live and worship in the far corners of the land or are corrupting it and its inhabitants for their gods. The Nocturn live in long forgotten tombs, the followers in rich buried forests and the Kindred in the rotten remains.
So glad I waited to cover the minotaur dudes, I had no idea there was rot ones in the game files. I figured that lone follower was there dude to the uld architecture, I suppose the lone alabaster lord is there for astel in a similar manner
Finally, somebody explained why the rotten ancestral followers were down in the cloister for version 1.0. You can still fight them straight from the disc (without downloading the patches), which makes more sense to me from a lore perspective. The Ancestral Spirit is a birth/death/rebirth god and Destined Death was removed from the Lands Between, thus denying the natural order of things (and the Ancestral Spirit's power). Much like with Gwyn denying the end of fire, denying natural rot brings about worse phenomena, and the Return of the Repressed (or Malenia, the rot goddess). It explains why she was cursed on behalf of what her mother had done.
Where in the game does it say that the Ancestral Spirit is based in death and rebirth? Same for the “Return of the Repressed” rot god thing? Not saying you’re wrong, just checking your sources.
No, the Scarlet Rot is an Outer God whose presence in the Lands Between is driven by a desire for control, just like the Greater Will. Its no more natural than the Erdtree is. The Ancestral Followers were there because it was once their domain, before a god of rot was sealed beneath the lake. Destined Death has nothing to do with this, because Destined Death is also alien to the Lands Between. Destined Death isn't part of the normal world, and removing it wouldn't cause issues, unless you have to use it because the Golden Order isn't letting things die normally. The Ancestor Spirits represent new life sprouting from death, in the form of spirits. Destined Death (dead things die forever, and nothing new comes from them) is as alien to the Lands Between as "everything will rot away, and become an extension of Rot" and "dead things can only be reborn by the Erdtree". Nothing brought about by the Outer Gods is meant to be in the Lands Between.
The Outer God of Rot isn't natural rot and decay. It seeks the extermination and replacement of all life in the world. Considering *how* the life cycle of the Ancestral Spirits works, this would destroy them. It's a different kind of death and rebirth to the Rot God's brand. In fact, the force of Rot is described over and over again as arising from stagnancy. What Marika did allowed the Rot greater influence over the world. I imagine with Destined Death's reintroduction, the power of the Rot God will wane.
It’s also because she was born of a single god, thus an Empyrean. So she was chosen by an outer god which happened to be Rot. But I like your take that the Outer god of rot cursed Malenia maliciously because of Marika’s actions
Definitely an interesting change. I do wish the Follower they added down in the lake was the rotted variant, though. Would've been a great addition in terms of its environment and a unique encounter.
Rotten Ancestors. While I'm already not a massive fan of the Lake of Rot (mechanics wise), the idea of getting sniped by an Ancestor while running before I get the Rot makes me wince.
Its too bad they didnt make the lone ancestral follower a rot version, unique enemies are a fun discovery, but i guess its possible that they invested enough development time on this that theyd rather save it for later.
Hew Zullie, do you know if other baleful shadows besides the Blaidd one were cut from the game? Ranni's dialogue implies that you will have to fight multiple ones, but the Blaidd one is the only one you ever fight.
@@leonardo5941 That's true Maliketh is Marika's shadow, which gets me thinking: Marika and Ranni are Empyreans and have shadows, so maybe the other Empyreans (Miquella and Malenia) had their own shadows too?? That could also be DLC content
Honestly that would be a nice way to introduce Astel before the fight. This would give a vibe that something is trying to stop you and Ranni, and *actively* sent Astel after you. As it is, it looks like Astel is just there, in the way.
Wow, interesting! My whole first playthrough was on version 1.0 but I didn't find this area (or a few others) until after I had already beaten it and then patched my game. Pretty crazy to think I could have had two totally different experiences in this area if I'd found it earlier.
I hope modders can use some of these resources to make some really interesting total conversion type experiences. Like, Astel crashing down in the middle of the fight with Radahn, or after you beat him and let the stars fall.
You should do a complete video on the main differences between the V1.0.0 version of the game vs. the latest patch. By now they are well documented but scattered all around Reddit and YT.
That's my issue with a lot of the game. Enemy placement often doesn't seem to follow a theme and it's only by what feels like contrived lore is it made to make sense. Even after the explanations in this video, the ancestral follower and astel being down in the lake of rot still feels lazy and not well flushed out, especially since you reach astel via coffin ride (still the dumbest thing and really takes me out of the game, yet they did it several times). I get that the ancestral follower statues from above the lake are found within it implying that the temple was taken over by the kindred of rot, but it never feels fully connected. It feels like they barely tried or rushed in many Elden Ring areas, possibly because there's so much content they couldn't polish everything like in previous games.
Since astels are sent by the greater will as falling stars to destroy or guard something , evolving from falling star beast to astels, this one in specific kinda is misplaced, no way from him to get there as a falling star beast, but it kinda makes sense if you think he is there to protect the fingers, since he protect the only entrance to the moonlight altar.(Thats just my point of view, im not craving any truth here)
@@TheAuspiciousGoldmask its not confirmed or even hinted at anywhere that they are sent by the greater will. Doesnt make it impossible but its really has nothing to back it up
@@TheAuspiciousGoldmask I was always under the impression that the stars and the Greater will were at odds, After all, Radahn halted the movement of the stars and held celestial beings at bay presumably with instructions from the two fingers. Also it's implied that Astel isn't a normal stage in the lifecycle of the Fallingstar beasts, The one on mount gelmir is explicitly "Full grown" and the paler, weaker versions of Astel are called "Malformed stars"
It would've been cool to see both the rotten followers and kindred together to hint a change That they now worship the rotten along with kindred after being "corrupted"
I could see that the original intent may have been that after you killed Radahn and the stars started moving again, you'd have to fight Astel in his old arena or something like that as some kind of consequence to your actions. You've set Ranni's fate in motion again but so have you set free the starbeasts. Then they decided that having two such special encounters one after the other would've left the rest a bit empty and put Astel in the cave, where it imo fits very well as kind of reveal of what happened to Nokron and Nokstella. The thing that just always stood out for me in Ranni's QL is how the steps of it and the places generally make sense and connect to each other but the Lake of Rot always seemed like it stuck out
The Uhl ruins were just overtaken by the rot and the kindred followed. The Cloister seems to have been repurposed for the rot in universe, so the rotten ancestral follower makes the history still line up
I remember seeing Astel in the release trailer and thinking (in great excitement) that there was going to be some alien/cosmic horror twist to the lore. I also made the connection to it and the Fallingstars straight away, and also think there's an unexplored one to the Stone Clusters (the eye, animated matter and gravity magic explosions). Finding him underground i immideatly thought "Oh boy, something was shuffled around to salvage this part", because it seems off to have Astel be below ground. Maybe the overall dots to connect instead is that Astel is the star that falls and breaks open Limgrave. Though it definitely seems like there was a lot of planned points in the lore they had to obscure, without giving up on assets during development.
Astel was the star that destroyed the eternal cities so was down there for a while, the one that fell is just a separate meteor that was held with the stars to stop fate
@@grimnir8872 One interesting thing of note regarding this - I think we don't actually know for sure if they're "from the stars", or in what exact sense. The lore from their weapons just says that they're: "...a race of ancients with skin of stone who were said to have risen to life when a meteor struck long ago", and there does not seem to be anything in the game that elaborates further on this topic. So, since how and why exactly they "rose to life" as a result of the meteor strike is left ambiguous, it's possible that they might well have had no previous allegiance to the stars, or may not have been intentionally created/controlled by them. If we're being extremely particular about the wording, it technically does not even confirm that the meteor is what gave them life, just that the timing coincided with it. But, y'know, them being stone themed and wielding gravity magic does at least suggest that connection pretty strongly.
Ooh didn't know about the astel falling animation. The location for the big falling star in the post radahn cut scene lines up with the moonlight alter and not the current crash site. Wonder why they chose to cut having him crash.
I wonder if at some point they wanted it to seem like the Eternal Cities were fairly recently demolished, as in that the star was Astel himself going down there. I think it's better to leave that direct tie to the events more ambiguous, as most events are in the background story. You learn of little things here and there of what happened but it's never clear which order they fall into and how long ago it was. My theory is that if they do DLC that a prime target would be what happened in the past with The Gloam-Eyed Queen, the eternal cities and their fall and the creation of the Fingerslayer Blade. It's said it's born of a corpse and I really think that corpse was The Gloam-Eyed Queen as she was the holder of Destined Death. Godwyn could be another candidate though, and perhaps give a clear motive for killing him other than purely as a device to separate Ranni from her body. The fact that Godwyn's body is still living is why I lean towards GEQ being the corpse though.
One of my theories is that one Astel was the star that falls in the Radahn post-fight cutscene. Maybe you'd see it fall in the cutscene, or once you go to the location where it would fall. There's 2 Astels, both underground in places where they don't seem to fit, but the Astel in the Lake of Rot could be explained with it roaming downstream from the Deeproot Depths after destroying the Eternal City.
I'm seriously astonished that people actually think this and made the entire Elden Ring community confused about Radahn. The big star is what crashed near Fort Haight (if the cutscene wasn't explicit enough somehow, the NPCs spell it out) and opened up a hole to Nokron, and Astel is found below Liurnia and Consecrated Snowfield. The latter one may have arrived as an asteroid because an Alabaster Lord is found around it. Radahn's conquering of the stars had nothing to do with stopping an alien invasion and any lore theories based on this misconception is fundamentally broken beyond repair.
They actually do fit, they are where The Greater Will is being opposed. The Eternal City crafted the Fingerslayer Blade and it's creation marked it's downfall. Astel the Naturalborn is directly said to be the destroyer so that checks out. Mt Gelmir opposed the Roundtable, the golden order and Grace under the banner of Blasphemy. Selia is linked to Nox, the night and is right above the cities and Mohg's Palace. Astel Stars of Darkness is right near the Haligtree and the final Fallingstar Beast is in Altus right above Deeproot/Ainsel so that checks out too.
I don’t know how you do it, but I swear to god, every time you upload, it always somehow manages to be a topic relevant to where I currently am in my play throughs of Elden ring.
I honestly don't fully agree with the idea that an Ancestor Spirit wouldn't have fit Ranni's quest. While Astel does more distinctly fit with the idea of Ranni as queen of the Moon and Stars, Ranni is also the only character other than Melina with a distinct connection to Torrent, a potential adolescent Ancestral Spirit. Not only that, but she also gives you the Spirit Bell, which feels like it holds some connection to the Ancestral Followers. I think it could've worked as a solidification of Ranni's connection to Torrent as well as the Ancestral Spirits.
Can I just say that I love your use of music for your videos? The nostalgic vibe as well as the thematic approach makes it peak listening music while also just reading factoids. Cheers!
That's really interesting about the rot infected followers! I always figured there was something weird about there being a random follower unaffected by the rot lake weird they didn't at least change thier appearance to the rot afflicted followers Edit:forgot it had immunity charm
Dude i come here for the lore but thank you so much for using the music that i feel is so underappreciated!! Twilight Princess in particular, I feel like the soundtrack gets overlooked, but god damn I love the channel anyways
I love when you use zelda music. Using music from one of my favorite series ever (specifically TP), while talking about one of my other favorite series ever. Just love it
Astel is just so cool, his appearance, the arena with the starry sky and especially the eye-ish thing in his skull, it's just giving me goosebumps. I was terrified when entered to his room for the first time unprepared,but his desing is 10/10
I wonder if this also explains why suddenly there's a second Astel in the mountain. I know Astels are multiple creatures, but it always felt weird to me that they used a massive story boss as just another dungeon boss.
I like to imagine the story of EldenRing came about from the staff and directors having a massive D&D party, deciding who gets to overthrow who and who controls where on the roll of a dice.
I actually have the unpatched version of the same on my Xbox One since I was never able to update it. Honestly this channel has helped me notice the differences between the two, which makes me excited for when I can actually update my game.
Honestly, I'm glad they've been replaced as there could have been rot-infested Follower snipers on a flat lake. That sounds like an absolute nightmare.
Astel is a great fight, but let's be honest, it makes no sense that he is where he is. Rot enemies are a pain to fight, but I would prefer if the area was changed to accommodate bosses that make sense in a place that has a sealed rot god in it, and astel should go somewhere else
To be fair Astel's arena isn't that close to the lake of rot. You just access it via a coffin there. So Astel could have landed in that location without ever being near the lake.
@@SaHaRaSquad Yeah idk how so many people got in that coffin, rode it to a totally different part of the map, and then thought "why is this boss physically located in the Lake of Rot" even though it isn't? Like, we don't know why it was either imprisoned or hiding down in its arena (hoping for more breadcrumbs to follow in DLC maybe), but it's definitely not in the Lake of Rot, the Lake of Rot happens to contain a means of accessing it, which I strongly doubt is an accident but is not the same as "it's in the Lake of Rot." It's not. Tha My vague guess would be that someone sealed it away but might have wanted it to be possible to reach it or even commune with it, hence the Lake of Rot being an obstacle most people in the setting would never ever even consider trying to explore, and the coffin device still providing a means of access that could've been used by whoever put it there. I don't really have lore to back that up, I'd appreciate no one responding with "you have no evidence for this paragraph" because I know I don't, but I think ideas along those lines are at worth least thinking about. Still crossing my fingers for more concrete info on it someday though, including if I end up being totally wrong lol I also wonder if the more fully grown star monsters (misshapen stars, the Astels, etc) might just have sought out places deep underground to live or hibernate or something in, like maybe being in deep, dark places far away from anything else is the closest thing to the darkness of the void that they can still reach. Also no specific support for that, just another thought As for more Rot related bosses or actually fighting the rot god, that would be rad and I hope for stuff along those lines from DLC, since a Miquella-related DLC seems pretty likely and anything involving him will probably also tie into Malenia and the Rot
This makes so much more sense! Now that we know what was supposed to be in this boss room originally, I'm really starting to think the underground had some significant lore overhauls. Since Astel may have been an aboveground encounter before, there's reason to doubt he was always responsible for the Nameless Eternal City's destruction and taking its sky. The Nox also had a lot of 1st patch lore changes, and it seems like they went from being directly related to Marika to being two separate races or peoples: Numen and Nightfolk. The Eternal City's influence is still felt throughout the Lands Between, seen in Ranni's quest, the mausoleums, night sorceries, memory stones, and maybe even the alchemy that created Albinaurics. Some of it makes more sense as the products of the Moon-worshipping Nox, and some seem more like remnants of a precursor to the Golden Order, whatever the Numen may have been before Marika gained the Greater Will's favor and there are only her and her assassins left. I'm not sure From themselves are really sure how all the pieces fit together after the changes. The Nameless Eternal City, Astel's involvement, Ranni's quest, and Godwyn's influence all don't mesh very well together or with the current lore for the Nox.
Vaati proposed that Astel was originally supposed to be fought immediately after Radahn, rather than him having a second phase. I think that would have been neater and made more sense than a star somehow finding its way underground, and it still would have been connected to Ranni’s quest. (Also I’ve never seen this pointed out anywhere, but in addition to having her wonderful half-brother Godwyn murdered for her own personal plot, but she also had us kill her full-blooded brother as well.)
It is pretty hilarious how unfinished Elden Ring launched, with parts of the lore being rewritten in patches and entire questlines missing. Good thing it has that classic Miyazaki "convoluted storyline" to cover it up. Just like it did in Dark Souls 1. And 2. And 3.
I mean, I'm loving ER and how it turned out, but... dunno. It seems apparent that it came dangerously close to being a Cyberpunk 2077-like launch without even all that much retrospect.
@@acchre6465 Mimic Tear, arguably the most overpowered summon and perhaps even item in the game was originally a reward for a very long and convoluted quest. The quest has full voiceacting, so it was removed very close to release. Miyazaki has very bad track record when it comes to finishing games on time.
In this case some would say it had too much time in the oven. I dont see anything wrong here... aside from removing Astels glorious intro (But that was the subject of an earlier video)
i don't disagree, but at the same time if you never set a final date on something like game development then it won't ever get done. you'll keep finding things you want to change or add or remove or replace. but like i said, i definitely wouldn't have been upset giving ER another half a year or year of development to get a bunch of the super cool unused and unfinished stuff properly working and polished.
This is where I’ve got to really give it to From Soft, not only laying in deep lore to find and piece together in the environment, but even going as far to change up location and enemy placement in a patch, just to match with it, and the one enemy left drops an item the also gives lore itself. That’s some next level world building right there. *chefs kiss* we love elden ring for a company putting out a whole complete game, but even in a patch note they still do what they do best in story.
I think it's safe to say that ER went through the most rewrites and changes in lore and story out of all FromSoftware games. The game clearly needed at least 1-2 more years of development.
It's never safe to say that while Dark Souls II still exists. Besides, Elden Ring likely went through fewer major rewrites than even Dark Souls III. Major bosses like Yhorm and Wolnir were shuffled around in odd places, and sure there's a bit of wiggle in the boss placements of Elden Ring, but it's impossible to imagine them having just casually moved any of the Shardbearers. The Soul of Cinder didn't exist until the last couple months of III's development, but Radagon was clearly planned from the very beginning. Elden Ring is a huge game, which gave it a lot of room to end up with some odd small changes across the face of it, but its core foundation seems to be very solid.
Lol no. These changes are incredibly small relative to the route changes seen in DS2 or DS3. Elden Ring actually seems like one of the games with a clearer direction in its development, despite the cut content. And taking development route changes does not imply the need for more development time, it happens constantly in video game development.
Nah, m8. I've listened to hundreds of podcast episodes that talk about dark souls 1 through 3 and Bloodborne's cut content, revisions, early builds, etc, and it's insane how every game had SO much rebuilding. Not saying it's still not possible for ER to be the one most rewritten, but if we took just what we know now, it's not on the same level as DS2, ds3, and even potentially Bloodborne. Time will tell, though, on future discoveries on ER
DS2, Bloodborne, and DS3 also had some pretty dramatic changes in development. And who knows all the potentially juicy details that we'll never know because the assets were deleted and it's only known by the employees who worked on it at the time.
Crazy, just finished up the Lake of Rot last night, and I've never noticed the single Ancestral Follower, or in any of my 3 other playthru's. It's wild how much stuff there is still left to find, even 500+ hrs in
I love how your investigations unearth what the story was intended to be. The story as it turned out in the actual game seems to be a garbled mess. Your videos feel like they are revealing the "truth".
When beating astel for the first time I noticed how the method of getting to the boss (with the player being transported into a sealed room with a fog gate) and the arena were similar to the ancestral spirit fights. Im so happy it got adressed!
The placement of the unused Ancestor Spirit may imply that it would have been a distinct variation, instead of being regal, it may have been a Rot infested spirit.
The story of development (replacing the ancestor spirit with astel for design reasons) becoming part of the in-game story (the lake of rot temple conquered by kindred of rot, a single ancestral follower remaining) is absolutely fascinating to me. Just a tiny glimpse at a (IMO essential) part of the whole artwork -- its massively complex, elaborate creation -- that we as the video game audience barely have access to.
I kinda wish they put more into Lake of Rot. In its finished state its really just a few semi uncommon items, a dragon skin soldier and the path to Astel
I love that one little segment where another cave leads to an outcropping overlooking the Lake of Rot from a distance - that was my first time seeing the area and since I had only ever interacted with the scarlot rot via the chest trap teleport to the mine at that point, seeing this massive lake of viscous red filth underneath the idyllic (if dangerous) landscape above felt genuinely ominous and scary. Generally stumbling across the underground areas made for some of the most atmospheric moments in the entirety of the game for me. Atmosphere matters most to me about the Souls games and while I thought ER was kinda weak in that regard, it did definitely have its high points.
Honestly I feel like this would've been more thematically appropriate too. Astel seems to just kind of...be there, with no rhyme or reason. Did it crash somewhere else and crawl into the cave? There's no crater or opening above. It'd be interesting to see how, when the rot god was sealed away (whether literally, or figuratively, with the rivers surrounding the lake of rot and boxing it in) the Followers lost the area as the lake continued to fester and rot away their temples and lands. The Ancestor Spirit could even be (yes, awful I know) a Rotten Ancestor Spirit, which would be even more thematic as earlier in Ranni's quest you (may have) fought the untainted Spirit and Regal Spirit. It would help show how the Rot is corrupting even some of the more striking/beautiful elements of the world.
Hey zullie , i only recently got into your channel and now it’s an addiction. It’s peaceful , informative and charming. I really want to make content like yours one day.
Crossing the Lake of Rot while being shot at by Ancestral Follower Archers, possibly with rot-inflicting arrows... I won't lose any sleep over not getting to experience that. Heh.
If you play on the unpatched version of the game, you can encounter these rot-infested Ancestral Followers yourself, no modding required. They have the ability to spray Scarlet Rot at the player, so some of you will probably be happier that they're gone.
Is the boss in 1.00 still Astel?
That's actually incredible, I'm very tempted to play the unpatched version, I'm just afraid of what it might do to my current saves
Always find it cool to see development changes, the Astel being maybe meant for Radahn's arena would also explain the whole Farum Azula location theory thing too. Good video as always, love to see the models up close for soulsborne games.
Never knew this was a thing but it would've been interesting to see these in the current game.
Have you already talked about how the sites of grace look like Humanity?
It's very strange that they didn't at least have that one random Follower be the Rotted type they already made. I think it would be fascinating if there was exactly ONE unique rotted Ancestral Follower in the ENTIRE game.
you think? personally i would have not bothered to even looks this closely to notice xD
all moving things must die no matter what
I wonder if it was just a mistake like how they had the wrong versions of fallen star beasts in the wrong arenas.
I agree. Seems like an odd choice honestly.
He's carrying an immunity charm, so I think it implies that's how he is unaffected. Maybe a couple rotted ones on the other side instead of so many flipping basilisks, though? That could have worked...
@@indigo7898 Well, even if you didn't spot the visual difference in game, it just means the devs could've laughed all the harder when the random Lake Follower started spitting Rot at unsuspecting players.
See, I WONDERED why there was a singular Ancestral Follower just roaming the Lake of Rot all by his lonesome.
I don't even remember seeing one and I thought I was thorough lol.
I thought it was just for the accessory that gives you Rot immunity.
quit commenting you dont have to every video zulie knows you're a fanboy so you cant go just 1 video without you talking to yourself cause 150 comments in zulie hasn't responded to 1 yet lmaooooo
I like how the lone follower is carrying the +1 immunity charm.
The charms of status resistance are all visually themed after budding horns, plus it explains why this one Ancestral Follower is alive down here.
did they forget he was there?
There might also be a still-extant lore connection, via the Blind Swordsman.
The Blind Swordsman who sealed away the Outer God of Rot has a connection to the Ancestral Followers; it's said he was aided by a fairy, and the Ancestral Followers are associated with the Siofra River ('Siofra' meaning 'fairy' in Gaelic). So maybe, that Ancestral Follower is still there because he's keeping an eye on the god his tribe helped imprison.
Hmm maybe if they find an unused rot attack from Astel, otherwise I don't think we've seen the outer God of rot.
@@senuhet13 Malenia isnt the outer god of rot, she has a curse related to him, think like that:
Outer god of rot : God
Malenia : Jesus
Is the same realtionship with Marika and the Grater Will/Elden Beast.
And Astel is a star like creature that fell in the Eternal Citys (Nokron and Nokstella) thats why there are 2 malformed astels in Siofra River.
In resume, we dont know anything about the outer god of the scaflet rot, exvluding the fact that malenia is its "Jesus" and that aparently itis improsonated on the Lake of Rot
The one Scarlet Rot-based dagger seems very much modeled after a scorpion's stinger. It feels like, earlier in their plans, the general scorpion-like skeleton of the Astel we currently have may have fully well been used for this sealed God of Rot (the Scarlet Flower, I think? Malenia seems to be referred to such as a proper object and whatnot when it's corrupting her in Phase 2 of that fight.) And going by that, it seems possible Astel might not have even at all resembled what it looks like now, in that phase of development.
Even now, with Astel being there at the end of the Lake of Rot, there's still the stinger dagger that seems to suggest the God of Rot taking a shape like that. Which... to me, at least, indicates that Astel and this other God of Rot might be alike in origin.
That's a great catch. Might have been nice to split the difference and have the Followers and the Kindred both be present at the Cloister and fighting amongst each other, sort of like that Black Knight curb stomping Ghru in the Demon Ruins of DS3 or the two Darkwraiths charging through the Ghru outside of the Abyss Watchers' boss arena. (Poor Ghru!) Would have added to this narrative that the Ancestral Followers stand guard to keep the God of Rot at bay, while the Kindred are trying to unleash it.
@@pedrorodrigo9560 Astel is in no way connected to Greater Will, it isn't confirmed at all and for all we know, it's a separate entity.
Cause everything connected to GW has gold-motif/uses Holy Attacks, while Astel uses Magic.
Not having Astel fall from the sky underground is a missed opportunity, since it implies that the night sky doesn't exist above the world but actually exists throughout it like background radiation, stars showing through were the "worldness" is thin. Really woulda fit the cosmic horror vibe.
My guess is that they came up with the idea of him falling from sky very early on in development, he's from the stars after all. But it doesn't fit well into the lore as he came down long before the game takes place and is already down there, so they shifted that to a phase transition for Radahn since he's a known master of gravity of magic. I always figured that the Astels were sent down to places that directly opposed The Greater Will, and Radahn holding back the stars was meant to stop them continuing to come down. Selia was connected to the Eternal Cities and is actually right above them/Mohg's Palace (heck even the exact place of the Selia Crystal Tunnel Fallingstar Beast seems to be directly over the palace if you place the underground map over the overworld map), Astel Naturalborn of the Void is obvious, Astel Stars of Darkness is fairly close to the Haligtree, Mt Gelmir and the manor with the Serpent. The only slightly odd one is in Altus Plateau but even that is seemingly above Deeproot Depths or Ainsel River - or could be linked to the Wormface blight creatures you see all over Altus.
I've always liked that take on the night sky in stories; normally it's treated as 'the void', which can be witnessed where the 'realm' is weakest, or damaged the most (e.g. by someone/something powerful).
@@Psykout What they probably intended imo was that killing Radahn would liberate the stars and have consequences and changes to the world,with the astel creatures coming down and you facing them in the open world,but this brought several difficulties they just gave up and moved them to underground areas.
@@gilvanvieira1815 I think it's more likely that in a rewrite they had Astel attached to the fall of the Eternal Cities, rather than it being because of technical difficulties. Since he would then be underground, rather than scrap the work done on the meteor attack, it got moved to Radahn. Zulies latest video on Mohg showcases how Mohg also possibly came about from a rewrite.
I love that idea
The true lore for this place is that the Ancestral Followers were running a scarlet rot spa but the tourists from Caelid overtook the place.
Trust me, my uncle works for Vaatividya.
Lmfao
>my uncle works for Vaatividya
My damn sides
I don’t think I watch Vaativid enough to know how this joke plays out
But i thought the sole exporter of scarlet rot™ in the lands between was Malenia?
Where these followers smugglers? Or ex clearnots?
Rotten Ancestrals? Hell yeah, can't wait for the Rotten DLC
Oh please no
Well there are massive chunks of the lake of rot map that we currently can't traverse so who knows
In the Lake of rots theres one not to far from the boss
No ! Don't give Miyasaki more rotten ideas, we have a litteral lake of rot, it's enough !
No, please... have mercy... no more ROT 😭
i get the impression that the ancestor spirit worshippers are meant to sorta be shown as being bumped out not only by the erdtree order, but by ALL the new gods that are taking over, in this case, the lake and the rot god, but elsewhere by the blood god as well. That lone wandering guy is the last survivor because of the talisman he carries, which you steal from him.
Blood god? You mean the formless mother right?
What talisman was he carrying?
Every Soulsring protag is a murderhobo lol
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD.
@@maxi1ification probably, but it could be the blood star as well.
You also go around lighting the fires the same way in the lake of rot as you do in the other ancestral areas.
i remember being so confused as to why it ultimately didnt lead to anything
I'm also confused as to why there's 3 Ancestral Spirit corpses but we only fight two of them.
I’ve beaten the entire game multiple times and you’re now telling me there are fires to be lit in the lake of rot? What does that even do?
@@SquattingSamurai Presuming he's talking about the pillars, they have buttons to raise up platforms out of the rot to make crossing the lake without proccing rot possible, and ends with solid ground to fight the dragonkin soldier from and a raised platform with one of the purple meteor guys that drops a sword.
I went to the lake of rot in a playthrough yesterday and was so confused by the random Ancestral Follower there. Thank you for answering literally ALL of the questions Zullie.
I actually never noticed him. I want to go back and see it now.
@@Gamerguy-ud1zo He's the source of the Immunizing Horn Charm +1 talisman. A guaranteed drop when you kill him. Him sticking out is probably why they put the talisman on him to begin with.
@@Gamerguy-ud1zo he drops a immunizing horn charm +2 if you kill him
@@Gamerguy-ud1zo I noticed him cus my character was afk at the shore, when I came back to the screen, he was a far away spooky looking silhouette, was a genuinely eerie moment til I realized it was just an ancestral follower
@@plank9456 JUST an ancestral follower?...
I know they're weak late game but i'm still traumatised from my first visit to Siofra river.
I find the grand cloister FASCINATING. The whole underground lake of rot area is so interesting to me. I feel like there could have been so much more to that area but there ultimately wasn't.
It’s my favorite area in the game lore-wise. You find a PIECE of an outer god there.
It gives a sinister and unsettling vibe,.like a sealed away cult and there's something underneath it all haha
In that sense it almost feels like the Lost Izalith of Elden Ring in terms of feeling incomplete, obviously to a MUCH lesser extent though. Or maybe I'm just saying that because having to walk through the rot reminded me too much of the lava, lol.
Like why is that whole drain pool hillside rice paddy area mapped, visible, but not used at all?
The tablets held by the statues look like the ones found in the ogre’s chests, the stone things that the carriages mount to with the stake in their back. Could this have some relevance? The ogres and the statues also share some aesthetic features, such as their scrawny - yet imposing - build.
They’re also all over Marika’s bed chamber. There might be a connection
The tablets have actually already been identified as the "Imago Mundi"-an ancient Babylonian map of the world. The Tarnished Archaeologist has a good video on the ancient dynasty.
They also share root-like features. The trolls on their faces, the statues on their body/chest/legs
I think they might be depictions of the cloaked ogres before they got madness
@@redmarch8 nvm
I do wonder why astel is on the other side of the lake of rot when it was the scourge of the eternal cities. Maybe it should have been closer to Nokstella and the lake of rot moved a bit further out to a optional connecting area you can find.
It's also a shame that, other than being a roadblock to the alter, it doesn't seem to link to Ranni's goals at all, other than being a thematic "Stars and Space" final boss for her quest.
Maybe it burrowed deeper into the earth after it stole Nokstella's sky.
Keep in mind that the lake of rot has not always been as it is, at some point it was the site of an eternal city or at least its ruins, after all, the lake of rot is the reason for the stagnation and progressive sinking of Liurna. In addition to the fact that in current versions the presence of ancestral followers is still maintained by the survivor in the middle of the lake with a talisman to improve immunity.
And also, it does make sense thematically because the Astels are sent from the greater will, making her presence the obstacle to complete Ranni's quest to free the world from the influence of the outer gods. What should be noted, it seemed the regular movement of the greater will due to the presence of fallenstar beast in the Volcano Manor (Home of a faction against the erdtree), Sellia (The possible remains of an eternal city on the surfaces, and current house of sorcerers) and Leyndell (The home of the greater will, so it can be assumed that it would be sent to defend itself). In addition, the presence of Astel is presented to us from the beginning when we enter the depths of the Ainsel river, so I think the obvious thing is to finish that area with his presence as a boss
I wonder if the lake of rot is an eternal city? It is too much in ruins to tell but the fact that the lake had the ancestors and the ancient beast kinda makes it like the first eternal city we find. Maybe there was more planned with the lore of malenia, the outer god, and the swordsman at the beginning? Malenia was unusually pretty displayed in promotional material for an optional boss. As for Astel and Ranni, I have a theory. Throughout the lands in-between there are falling star beast in meteor holes. A falling star beast is just a larva of Astel, the full grown falling star beast near volcano manor without it's mane hair texture has an Astel skull. Maybe these meteors were meant to open up as part of defeating Radahn? Astel would have been in one of the meteors Radahn was holding back?
Astel was sent down to destroy the Eternal Cities when they crafted the Fingerslayer Blade which lines up exactly with Ranni's questline.
_The hidden treasure of the Eternal City of Nokron; a blade said to have been born of a corpse._
_This blood-drenched fetish is proof of the high treason committed by the Eternal City and symbolizes its downfall._
_Cannot be wielded by those without a fate, but is said to be able to harm the Greater Will and its vassals._
I think Astel was always intended as the final fight for Ranni's quest, but the trek through the lake of rot was not. Astel now sits in that Ancestral Spirit arena, which connects to the Moon Alter only via an out-of-place waygate. A 3rd fight a Rot Ancestral Spirit would also have tied the Ancestral Followers zones together nicely.
the zelda music in these videos.makes me think how much the soul series needs ambient music like this, not everywhere but definitely used more often.
Majula is a great example of From doing that well
Which song is it?
No, FromSoft's games need to take ZERO influence from Nintendo's cancerous bullshit.
They're literally at the opposite ends of the spectrum in every way that matters and I'm thankful for that.
@@Facepalm9 brutal
@@Facepalm9 They might be seperate types of games, but that doesn't mean that the devs shouldn't take inspiration from looking at other games. BotW was most likely a massive inspiration to Elden Ring
I like the replacement. When you go through the Area's for Ranni's Quest. You see full view on your journey the effects the outer gods have on the people of lands between.
They either live and worship in the far corners of the land or are corrupting it and its inhabitants for their gods.
The Nocturn live in long forgotten tombs, the followers in rich buried forests and the Kindred in the rotten remains.
So glad I waited to cover the minotaur dudes, I had no idea there was rot ones in the game files. I figured that lone follower was there dude to the uld architecture, I suppose the lone alabaster lord is there for astel in a similar manner
looking forward to the vid
Ey, it's the honored madman. Love your stuff m8
They aren't minotaurs, they're wearing headbands like the ones they drop.
Finally, somebody explained why the rotten ancestral followers were down in the cloister for version 1.0. You can still fight them straight from the disc (without downloading the patches), which makes more sense to me from a lore perspective. The Ancestral Spirit is a birth/death/rebirth god and Destined Death was removed from the Lands Between, thus denying the natural order of things (and the Ancestral Spirit's power). Much like with Gwyn denying the end of fire, denying natural rot brings about worse phenomena, and the Return of the Repressed (or Malenia, the rot goddess). It explains why she was cursed on behalf of what her mother had done.
Where in the game does it say that the Ancestral Spirit is based in death and rebirth?
Same for the “Return of the Repressed” rot god thing?
Not saying you’re wrong, just checking your sources.
No, the Scarlet Rot is an Outer God whose presence in the Lands Between is driven by a desire for control, just like the Greater Will. Its no more natural than the Erdtree is. The Ancestral Followers were there because it was once their domain, before a god of rot was sealed beneath the lake. Destined Death has nothing to do with this, because Destined Death is also alien to the Lands Between. Destined Death isn't part of the normal world, and removing it wouldn't cause issues, unless you have to use it because the Golden Order isn't letting things die normally.
The Ancestor Spirits represent new life sprouting from death, in the form of spirits. Destined Death (dead things die forever, and nothing new comes from them) is as alien to the Lands Between as "everything will rot away, and become an extension of Rot" and "dead things can only be reborn by the Erdtree". Nothing brought about by the Outer Gods is meant to be in the Lands Between.
The Outer God of Rot isn't natural rot and decay. It seeks the extermination and replacement of all life in the world. Considering *how* the life cycle of the Ancestral Spirits works, this would destroy them. It's a different kind of death and rebirth to the Rot God's brand. In fact, the force of Rot is described over and over again as arising from stagnancy. What Marika did allowed the Rot greater influence over the world. I imagine with Destined Death's reintroduction, the power of the Rot God will wane.
It’s also because she was born of a single god, thus an Empyrean. So she was chosen by an outer god which happened to be Rot. But I like your take that the Outer god of rot cursed Malenia maliciously because of Marika’s actions
@@nevish2284 ranni was also an empyrean whilst coming from radagon/renalla so empyreans aren't just single god stock.
Definitely an interesting change. I do wish the Follower they added down in the lake was the rotted variant, though. Would've been a great addition in terms of its environment and a unique encounter.
exactly, now I want a mod that reverts it
@@goldenrevolver4460 elden ring reforged does that
Yeah it wouldve been neat, though it drops the immunizing horn charm +1, which explains why its not rotted
@@TheWither129
He could still drop the talisman and be rotten. The time he spent in the rot has taken its toll, the charm could only go so far.
Can you freaking imagine slogging through the lake of rot AND dealing with the Ancestral railguns. Great work as always Zulie
Rotten Ancestors.
While I'm already not a massive fan of the Lake of Rot (mechanics wise), the idea of getting sniped by an Ancestor while running before I get the Rot makes me wince.
They'd wait until you get rotted and then snipe you when you're trying to heal.
What if the Shrine of Amana but Toxic Swamp is the worst thing I've ever heard theorized for a Souls game.
Its too bad they didnt make the lone ancestral follower a rot version, unique enemies are a fun discovery, but i guess its possible that they invested enough development time on this that theyd rather save it for later.
it's really sad that the rotten ancestor wasnt like the pregnant doggo in dark souls 3
we dont even need context or history for they, it just work
Hew Zullie, do you know if other baleful shadows besides the Blaidd one were cut from the game? Ranni's dialogue implies that you will have to fight multiple ones, but the Blaidd one is the only one you ever fight.
Look around on the ground when you fight him at the tower. It's littered with corpses of what I can only assume are other Shadows.
@@terrydavis5924 the corpses in the tower are Black Knife Assassins, Blaidd is the only shadow in the game
@@terrydavis5924 those are pretty obviously Black Knife Assassins, just like the ones near Iji
Maliketh is also a shadow, no ?
Marika's shadow.
Maybe more shadows will be added later in DLCs
@@leonardo5941 That's true Maliketh is Marika's shadow, which gets me thinking: Marika and Ranni are Empyreans and have shadows, so maybe the other Empyreans (Miquella and Malenia) had their own shadows too?? That could also be DLC content
Never realized how similar Astel’s and the Ancestor Spirits’ arenas were.
One cool thought. Astels falling attack would look really cool in an animation where he falls from the twinkling stars above
Honestly that would be a nice way to introduce Astel before the fight. This would give a vibe that something is trying to stop you and Ranni, and *actively* sent Astel after you. As it is, it looks like Astel is just there, in the way.
Wow, interesting! My whole first playthrough was on version 1.0 but I didn't find this area (or a few others) until after I had already beaten it and then patched my game. Pretty crazy to think I could have had two totally different experiences in this area if I'd found it earlier.
Astel was my favorite boss in the game to fight. How unfortunate you missed him!
I hope modders can use some of these resources to make some really interesting total conversion type experiences. Like, Astel crashing down in the middle of the fight with Radahn, or after you beat him and let the stars fall.
I imagine the second fight you mentioned being the actual reason why Astel has that animation
it would have been really cool if he just suddenly crashed down after radahn was defeated, a surprise second boss
THAT would be cool.
Note: this would go into fan fiction or the enemy randomizer category since Radahn had nothing to do with the Astels.
@@Chaffee738 no one is saying it's canon, just that it would be fun for mods, since Astel seemed to have fit in Radauns arena at some point.
Thank you so much for this!!! I had commented about these guys on bonfireVN's ancestral followers video and thought I was going insane
You should do a complete video on the main differences between the V1.0.0 version of the game vs. the latest patch.
By now they are well documented but scattered all around Reddit and YT.
Astel was a memorable boss but his placement in the game always felt weird and even nonsensical to me, now I see it wasn't just me
That's my issue with a lot of the game. Enemy placement often doesn't seem to follow a theme and it's only by what feels like contrived lore is it made to make sense. Even after the explanations in this video, the ancestral follower and astel being down in the lake of rot still feels lazy and not well flushed out, especially since you reach astel via coffin ride (still the dumbest thing and really takes me out of the game, yet they did it several times). I get that the ancestral follower statues from above the lake are found within it implying that the temple was taken over by the kindred of rot, but it never feels fully connected. It feels like they barely tried or rushed in many Elden Ring areas, possibly because there's so much content they couldn't polish everything like in previous games.
Since astels are sent by the greater will as falling stars to destroy or guard something , evolving from falling star beast to astels, this one in specific kinda is misplaced, no way from him to get there as a falling star beast, but it kinda makes sense if you think he is there to protect the fingers, since he protect the only entrance to the moonlight altar.(Thats just my point of view, im not craving any truth here)
At least it's not like Dark Souls 3, where about half the bosses were in the incorrect arenas.
@@TheAuspiciousGoldmask its not confirmed or even hinted at anywhere that they are sent by the greater will. Doesnt make it impossible but its really has nothing to back it up
@@TheAuspiciousGoldmask I was always under the impression that the stars and the Greater will were at odds, After all, Radahn halted the movement of the stars and held celestial beings at bay presumably with instructions from the two fingers. Also it's implied that Astel isn't a normal stage in the lifecycle of the Fallingstar beasts, The one on mount gelmir is explicitly "Full grown" and the paler, weaker versions of Astel are called "Malformed stars"
It would've been cool to see both the rotten followers and kindred together to hint a change
That they now worship the rotten along with kindred after being "corrupted"
I could see that the original intent may have been that after you killed Radahn and the stars started moving again, you'd have to fight Astel in his old arena or something like that as some kind of consequence to your actions. You've set Ranni's fate in motion again but so have you set free the starbeasts. Then they decided that having two such special encounters one after the other would've left the rest a bit empty and put Astel in the cave, where it imo fits very well as kind of reveal of what happened to Nokron and Nokstella.
The thing that just always stood out for me in Ranni's QL is how the steps of it and the places generally make sense and connect to each other but the Lake of Rot always seemed like it stuck out
The Uhl ruins were just overtaken by the rot and the kindred followed. The Cloister seems to have been repurposed for the rot in universe, so the rotten ancestral follower makes the history still line up
I remember seeing Astel in the release trailer and thinking (in great excitement) that there was going to be some alien/cosmic horror twist to the lore. I also made the connection to it and the Fallingstars straight away, and also think there's an unexplored one to the Stone Clusters (the eye, animated matter and gravity magic explosions).
Finding him underground i immideatly thought "Oh boy, something was shuffled around to salvage this part", because it seems off to have Astel be below ground.
Maybe the overall dots to connect instead is that Astel is the star that falls and breaks open Limgrave. Though it definitely seems like there was a lot of planned points in the lore they had to obscure, without giving up on assets during development.
Astel was shown in the exact same arena in that trailer.
I want to know why the Onyx/Alablaster Lords are on the side of Humanity in stopping the stars, seeing as they are from the stars themselves.
Astel was the star that destroyed the eternal cities so was down there for a while, the one that fell is just a separate meteor that was held with the stars to stop fate
@@grimnir8872 One interesting thing of note regarding this - I think we don't actually know for sure if they're "from the stars", or in what exact sense. The lore from their weapons just says that they're: "...a race of ancients with skin of stone who were said to have risen to life when a meteor struck long ago", and there does not seem to be anything in the game that elaborates further on this topic. So, since how and why exactly they "rose to life" as a result of the meteor strike is left ambiguous, it's possible that they might well have had no previous allegiance to the stars, or may not have been intentionally created/controlled by them.
If we're being extremely particular about the wording, it technically does not even confirm that the meteor is what gave them life, just that the timing coincided with it. But, y'know, them being stone themed and wielding gravity magic does at least suggest that connection pretty strongly.
Zullie, you're the best! Your videos are short yet so full of content! Thank u for existing in this platform, u rock 🤠
the video paired with the lake bed temple theme sent chills down my spine
This is such a cool video, everything I love about this channel is present. And some of my favorite music you’ve used!
Ooh didn't know about the astel falling animation. The location for the big falling star in the post radahn cut scene lines up with the moonlight alter and not the current crash site. Wonder why they chose to cut having him crash.
Watch his video about it, will help you to understand this subject more! :)
I wonder if at some point they wanted it to seem like the Eternal Cities were fairly recently demolished, as in that the star was Astel himself going down there. I think it's better to leave that direct tie to the events more ambiguous, as most events are in the background story. You learn of little things here and there of what happened but it's never clear which order they fall into and how long ago it was.
My theory is that if they do DLC that a prime target would be what happened in the past with The Gloam-Eyed Queen, the eternal cities and their fall and the creation of the Fingerslayer Blade. It's said it's born of a corpse and I really think that corpse was The Gloam-Eyed Queen as she was the holder of Destined Death. Godwyn could be another candidate though, and perhaps give a clear motive for killing him other than purely as a device to separate Ranni from her body. The fact that Godwyn's body is still living is why I lean towards GEQ being the corpse though.
You always have the perfect music in the back playing. I always look forward to your content
WOW!!! I love it!!!!!
zulie it is an absolute pleasure watching you mine the hell out of the game and adding to the lore of this world
when i see all these discoveries, i sometimes wonder how Zullie is playing Elden Ring (by swapping data as liked an modding the crap out of it.)
One of my theories is that one Astel was the star that falls in the Radahn post-fight cutscene. Maybe you'd see it fall in the cutscene, or once you go to the location where it would fall. There's 2 Astels, both underground in places where they don't seem to fit, but the Astel in the Lake of Rot could be explained with it roaming downstream from the Deeproot Depths after destroying the Eternal City.
I'm seriously astonished that people actually think this and made the entire Elden Ring community confused about Radahn. The big star is what crashed near Fort Haight (if the cutscene wasn't explicit enough somehow, the NPCs spell it out) and opened up a hole to Nokron, and Astel is found below Liurnia and Consecrated Snowfield. The latter one may have arrived as an asteroid because an Alabaster Lord is found around it.
Radahn's conquering of the stars had nothing to do with stopping an alien invasion and any lore theories based on this misconception is fundamentally broken beyond repair.
They actually do fit, they are where The Greater Will is being opposed. The Eternal City crafted the Fingerslayer Blade and it's creation marked it's downfall. Astel the Naturalborn is directly said to be the destroyer so that checks out. Mt Gelmir opposed the Roundtable, the golden order and Grace under the banner of Blasphemy. Selia is linked to Nox, the night and is right above the cities and Mohg's Palace. Astel Stars of Darkness is right near the Haligtree and the final Fallingstar Beast is in Altus right above Deeproot/Ainsel so that checks out too.
I don’t know how you do it, but I swear to god, every time you upload, it always somehow manages to be a topic relevant to where I currently am in my play throughs of Elden ring.
I honestly don't fully agree with the idea that an Ancestor Spirit wouldn't have fit Ranni's quest. While Astel does more distinctly fit with the idea of Ranni as queen of the Moon and Stars, Ranni is also the only character other than Melina with a distinct connection to Torrent, a potential adolescent Ancestral Spirit. Not only that, but she also gives you the Spirit Bell, which feels like it holds some connection to the Ancestral Followers. I think it could've worked as a solidification of Ranni's connection to Torrent as well as the Ancestral Spirits.
Can I just say that I love your use of music for your videos? The nostalgic vibe as well as the thematic approach makes it peak listening music while also just reading factoids. Cheers!
That's really interesting about the rot infected followers! I always figured there was something weird about there being a random follower unaffected by the rot lake weird they didn't at least change thier appearance to the rot afflicted followers
Edit:forgot it had immunity charm
Dude i come here for the lore but thank you so much for using the music that i feel is so underappreciated!! Twilight Princess in particular, I feel like the soundtrack gets overlooked, but god damn I love the channel anyways
I can’t wait for THIS to be brought up in the lawsuit
perfect music as usual. love seeing these in my feed
I love when you use zelda music. Using music from one of my favorite series ever (specifically TP), while talking about one of my other favorite series ever. Just love it
Yeah, Zelda. Very obscure and original. Basic bitch.
Astel is just so cool, his appearance, the arena with the starry sky and especially the eye-ish thing in his skull, it's just giving me goosebumps. I was terrified when entered to his room for the first time unprepared,but his desing is 10/10
I wonder if this also explains why suddenly there's a second Astel in the mountain. I know Astels are multiple creatures, but it always felt weird to me that they used a massive story boss as just another dungeon boss.
*cough* godrick the grafted *cough*
Impeccable music selection as always.
I like to imagine the story of EldenRing came about from the staff and directors having a massive D&D party, deciding who gets to overthrow who and who controls where on the roll of a dice.
I actually have the unpatched version of the same on my Xbox One since I was never able to update it. Honestly this channel has helped me notice the differences between the two, which makes me excited for when I can actually update my game.
Really need BonfireVN to view the model of the Rotten Ancestral Follower. It looks disgustingly beautiful.
I love the different music you use in your videos from Kingsfield to some obscure ones.
Neat
I just wanted to comment and say your videos are so effing good. So fun to watch
Ngl though; if we would have ended up with Ancestral Archers shooting rot arrows at us.... I'm glad they're gone lol.
Zullie talked about a Rot Breath. He never mentioned any Rot Arrows.
I think this explains why the ancestral spirit is a remembrance boss as well
They really repleaced New enemy Models for this Arena with Shrimps?
Love the music you put over these water temple from twilight princess I knew it as soon as I heard it lol
Honestly, I'm glad they've been replaced as there could have been rot-infested Follower snipers on a flat lake. That sounds like an absolute nightmare.
My favorite parts about these videos is the music selection!
Astel is a great fight, but let's be honest, it makes no sense that he is where he is. Rot enemies are a pain to fight, but I would prefer if the area was changed to accommodate bosses that make sense in a place that has a sealed rot god in it, and astel should go somewhere else
To be fair Astel's arena isn't that close to the lake of rot. You just access it via a coffin there. So Astel could have landed in that location without ever being near the lake.
@@SaHaRaSquad Yeah idk how so many people got in that coffin, rode it to a totally different part of the map, and then thought "why is this boss physically located in the Lake of Rot" even though it isn't? Like, we don't know why it was either imprisoned or hiding down in its arena (hoping for more breadcrumbs to follow in DLC maybe), but it's definitely not in the Lake of Rot, the Lake of Rot happens to contain a means of accessing it, which I strongly doubt is an accident but is not the same as "it's in the Lake of Rot." It's not. Tha
My vague guess would be that someone sealed it away but might have wanted it to be possible to reach it or even commune with it, hence the Lake of Rot being an obstacle most people in the setting would never ever even consider trying to explore, and the coffin device still providing a means of access that could've been used by whoever put it there. I don't really have lore to back that up, I'd appreciate no one responding with "you have no evidence for this paragraph" because I know I don't, but I think ideas along those lines are at worth least thinking about. Still crossing my fingers for more concrete info on it someday though, including if I end up being totally wrong lol
I also wonder if the more fully grown star monsters (misshapen stars, the Astels, etc) might just have sought out places deep underground to live or hibernate or something in, like maybe being in deep, dark places far away from anything else is the closest thing to the darkness of the void that they can still reach. Also no specific support for that, just another thought
As for more Rot related bosses or actually fighting the rot god, that would be rad and I hope for stuff along those lines from DLC, since a Miquella-related DLC seems pretty likely and anything involving him will probably also tie into Malenia and the Rot
This would also explain why Regal Ancestor Spirit is a remembrance boss
I love how complete Elden Ring can be, like who the hell could have suspected this
I was a little disappointed we didn't get to explore that inaccessible part of the lake of rot, the waterfall subsection that appears on the map.
O tru
This makes so much more sense! Now that we know what was supposed to be in this boss room originally, I'm really starting to think the underground had some significant lore overhauls.
Since Astel may have been an aboveground encounter before, there's reason to doubt he was always responsible for the Nameless Eternal City's destruction and taking its sky. The Nox also had a lot of 1st patch lore changes, and it seems like they went from being directly related to Marika to being two separate races or peoples: Numen and Nightfolk. The Eternal City's influence is still felt throughout the Lands Between, seen in Ranni's quest, the mausoleums, night sorceries, memory stones, and maybe even the alchemy that created Albinaurics. Some of it makes more sense as the products of the Moon-worshipping Nox, and some seem more like remnants of a precursor to the Golden Order, whatever the Numen may have been before Marika gained the Greater Will's favor and there are only her and her assassins left. I'm not sure From themselves are really sure how all the pieces fit together after the changes. The Nameless Eternal City, Astel's involvement, Ranni's quest, and Godwyn's influence all don't mesh very well together or with the current lore for the Nox.
Yo
Vaati proposed that Astel was originally supposed to be fought immediately after Radahn, rather than him having a second phase. I think that would have been neater and made more sense than a star somehow finding its way underground, and it still would have been connected to Ranni’s quest.
(Also I’ve never seen this pointed out anywhere, but in addition to having her wonderful half-brother Godwyn murdered for her own personal plot, but she also had us kill her full-blooded brother as well.)
The game feels unfinished to be honest
That shot of the Ancestor Spirit and Astel snarling at each other is magnificent
It is pretty hilarious how unfinished Elden Ring launched, with parts of the lore being rewritten in patches and entire questlines missing. Good thing it has that classic Miyazaki "convoluted storyline" to cover it up. Just like it did in Dark Souls 1. And 2. And 3.
I mean, I'm loving ER and how it turned out, but... dunno. It seems apparent that it came dangerously close to being a Cyberpunk 2077-like launch without even all that much retrospect.
Yeah
Edit : there's an entire dream catching mechanic and dream NPC and prob a "covenant" scrapped as well. Yay
@@acchre6465 Mimic Tear, arguably the most overpowered summon and perhaps even item in the game was originally a reward for a very long and convoluted quest. The quest has full voiceacting, so it was removed very close to release. Miyazaki has very bad track record when it comes to finishing games on time.
Always love your presentation and insights.
and there's seriously ppl out there that think elden ring didnt need more time in the oven, incredible
Yeah the change from 1.00 to 1.01 is pretty massive for this area
? sometimes designs change. that's how development goes. That doesn't make the game we got inherently "rushed" or "unfinished"
In this case some would say it had too much time in the oven. I dont see anything wrong here... aside from removing Astels glorious intro (But that was the subject of an earlier video)
One could say that, but I think people spend their energy criticising worse cases than Elden Ring - Cyberpunk and No Man's Sky come to mind.
i don't disagree, but at the same time if you never set a final date on something like game development then it won't ever get done. you'll keep finding things you want to change or add or remove or replace. but like i said, i definitely wouldn't have been upset giving ER another half a year or year of development to get a bunch of the super cool unused and unfinished stuff properly working and polished.
This is where I’ve got to really give it to From Soft, not only laying in deep lore to find and piece together in the environment, but even going as far to change up location and enemy placement in a patch, just to match with it, and the one enemy left drops an item the also gives lore itself. That’s some next level world building right there. *chefs kiss* we love elden ring for a company putting out a whole complete game, but even in a patch note they still do what they do best in story.
I think it's safe to say that ER went through the most rewrites and changes in lore and story out of all FromSoftware games. The game clearly needed at least 1-2 more years of development.
idk man, almost all of bloodborne's story was rewritten just a few months before release
It's never safe to say that while Dark Souls II still exists. Besides, Elden Ring likely went through fewer major rewrites than even Dark Souls III. Major bosses like Yhorm and Wolnir were shuffled around in odd places, and sure there's a bit of wiggle in the boss placements of Elden Ring, but it's impossible to imagine them having just casually moved any of the Shardbearers. The Soul of Cinder didn't exist until the last couple months of III's development, but Radagon was clearly planned from the very beginning.
Elden Ring is a huge game, which gave it a lot of room to end up with some odd small changes across the face of it, but its core foundation seems to be very solid.
Lol no. These changes are incredibly small relative to the route changes seen in DS2 or DS3. Elden Ring actually seems like one of the games with a clearer direction in its development, despite the cut content. And taking development route changes does not imply the need for more development time, it happens constantly in video game development.
Nah, m8. I've listened to hundreds of podcast episodes that talk about dark souls 1 through 3 and Bloodborne's cut content, revisions, early builds, etc, and it's insane how every game had SO much rebuilding.
Not saying it's still not possible for ER to be the one most rewritten, but if we took just what we know now, it's not on the same level as DS2, ds3, and even potentially Bloodborne. Time will tell, though, on future discoveries on ER
DS2, Bloodborne, and DS3 also had some pretty dramatic changes in development. And who knows all the potentially juicy details that we'll never know because the assets were deleted and it's only known by the employees who worked on it at the time.
Crazy, just finished up the Lake of Rot last night, and I've never noticed the single Ancestral Follower, or in any of my 3 other playthru's. It's wild how much stuff there is still left to find, even 500+ hrs in
I love how your investigations unearth what the story was intended to be. The story as it turned out in the actual game seems to be a garbled mess. Your videos feel like they are revealing the "truth".
When beating astel for the first time I noticed how the method of getting to the boss (with the player being transported into a sealed room with a fog gate) and the arena were similar to the ancestral spirit fights. Im so happy it got adressed!
The placement of the unused Ancestor Spirit may imply that it would have been a distinct variation, instead of being regal, it may have been a Rot infested spirit.
Damn I remember when this channel had like 4k subs lol. Way to go, Zullie.
you make stellar choices for music zullie!!!
I never played Elden Ring (only see some people play it) and yet. I never miss one of your video.
It is really interesting.
I remember running into these enemies on my first playthrough
The story of development (replacing the ancestor spirit with astel for design reasons) becoming part of the in-game story (the lake of rot temple conquered by kindred of rot, a single ancestral follower remaining) is absolutely fascinating to me. Just a tiny glimpse at a (IMO essential) part of the whole artwork -- its massively complex, elaborate creation -- that we as the video game audience barely have access to.
Informative as always. That lone ancestral follower finally makes sense
I kinda wish they put more into Lake of Rot. In its finished state its really just a few semi uncommon items, a dragon skin soldier and the path to Astel
i've never played this or plan to (way too hard) but i like watching your vids. the music is really good.
Great music choice! Amazing vibe for the video
I love that one little segment where another cave leads to an outcropping overlooking the Lake of Rot from a distance - that was my first time seeing the area and since I had only ever interacted with the scarlot rot via the chest trap teleport to the mine at that point, seeing this massive lake of viscous red filth underneath the idyllic (if dangerous) landscape above felt genuinely ominous and scary.
Generally stumbling across the underground areas made for some of the most atmospheric moments in the entirety of the game for me. Atmosphere matters most to me about the Souls games and while I thought ER was kinda weak in that regard, it did definitely have its high points.
:) Really been enjoying your work lately, Zullie! :)
Once again the music is awesome!
Honestly I feel like this would've been more thematically appropriate too. Astel seems to just kind of...be there, with no rhyme or reason. Did it crash somewhere else and crawl into the cave? There's no crater or opening above. It'd be interesting to see how, when the rot god was sealed away (whether literally, or figuratively, with the rivers surrounding the lake of rot and boxing it in) the Followers lost the area as the lake continued to fester and rot away their temples and lands. The Ancestor Spirit could even be (yes, awful I know) a Rotten Ancestor Spirit, which would be even more thematic as earlier in Ranni's quest you (may have) fought the untainted Spirit and Regal Spirit. It would help show how the Rot is corrupting even some of the more striking/beautiful elements of the world.
you always pick the best music
Hey zullie , i only recently got into your channel and now it’s an addiction. It’s peaceful , informative and charming. I really want to make content like yours one day.
Crossing the Lake of Rot while being shot at by Ancestral Follower Archers, possibly with rot-inflicting arrows...
I won't lose any sleep over not getting to experience that.
Heh.
Twilight princess' ost is a perfect choice for your videos !