The DLC making it so the Golden Order is a result of an extended game of whispers - based on outdated information and corrupted by Marika's biases and desire for vengeance - of the Greater Will's desires is kinda hilarious in a way
@@dontaejones7419 Count Ymir also reveals that because "we are made of stardust" we are also descendants of and part of the Greater Will. The only difference is that the Elden Beast is to the creatures of The Lands Between what the Sun is to us creatures of Earth. So I think the Greater Will truly is the collective laws of physics and of man. It's very much a Berserk idea in that way. That there is no higher power out there, only the collective will of the people and certain "special" people who acquire enough power to influence the people around them and the world for better or worse.
@@dontaejones7419 Worse than that since Marika had to abandon her flesh & humanity to become a god it more or less just takes over Marika but with her memories forcing order everywhere. Remember godhood is a prison. The level of control over her probably varied. Finally fading away as she learned to resist it & shattered when Godwyn dies. Only to realize she became the exact same monster that existed before her as a god. Then shattering the ring.
22:18 "For that to be true, the two fingers would have to either be insane, babbling nonsense-" It is so interesting watching this after the DLC, as you made so many interesting observations that get directly elaborated on, or answered. Would love to see you make an addendum to this video, discussing the new evidence.
Please, never feel stupid. Your videos provide an excellent jumping off point for thoughtful discussion. We learn about our worlds by interacting with them. Mistakes are made, and from them we learn and grow.
I agree 100% I may not agree with your conclusion or how you interpreted evidence to reach that conclusion, but I've never thought of you or your content as stupid. Your videos (that I've seen) are well thought out and well researched. Sometimes the questions you've asked don't have a definitive answer. FromSoft games are known for providing few definitive answers. You do great work with the material they provide.
Surely a stupid person would never stop to consider, "wait, what if my founding assumptions are all wrong? What happens to the topic if those ideas just aren't true?"
I prefer this take on ER lore. To me, it's almost like a biblical tale.... something rich in metaphor and unclear on specific timeframes, or how certain events ACTUALLY happened. But it also has a 'canon' story to it that's more or less implied to be a fully cogent and tangible truth. It's just one that none of the people reading it can ever fully understand. You know only what God wants you to know. What you access from your mortal, sinful place in the universe is but a fraction of what ever was, is, or will be. Because of that, there are all of these denominations, institutional and intellectual forces in the world... all of them built upon some fundamental presumptions about what the text is communicating to us. Or perhaps what the practical meaning of it is, how to best apply it and move forward with it. In doing so, many presumptions are taken on faith. And a rational framework emerges, one that aims to explain why we suffer and what we must do. But the map is not the territory. And because of that, institutions large enough to run nations have risen and collapsed. I guess their understanding was still incomplete. One thing I notice, and maybe this is getting too close to the real world but... not only are their separate denominations, but entire different religions taking readings of the text. And they fight constantly over which is right, because nobody knows the full answer. However, it makes sense that people fight over this in the real world - everyone involved believes the fate of our race hinges on us getting it right. That's something I can completely understand as a basic matter of possessing human empathy and rationale. It is the root of so much tragedy, but I do not know how to stop people from being people. What I can't understand is doing it in a video game world. We can have conflicting reads on text and subtext here and nothing is lost. The truth is, everyone is getting it wrong in the sense that there probably isn't a singular right that is remotely comprehensive enough to bury further questioning. Elden Ring gets a lot more interesting to think and talk about when you stop presuming there is a correct, ultimate explanation and start realizing there are many possible explanations, and that by design of the work, you will never have an understanding of it all that is complete enough to form a singular, absolute truth of it. That's for the creator to think about. The greatest joy of the game's storytelling is that by removing our ability to see the 'canonical' storyline directly, we can essentially pull a near infinite amount of stories from it. Again, it's a lot like the Bible. If ever you think you've figured all of it out, you missed the point... there are things referenced in that book, that aren't meant to be understood by humans in a fully concrete way. It paints you pictures of many things... pieces of truths, the full extent of which are implicitly not comprehensible by mortals. And I think some lore-interpreters for this game mistakenly believe they can mantle a full understanding of divinity by becoming historians.
@@HopeiThis worst main boss in the game for sure. I definitely love getting one hit on him and then chasing him across the arena for the next 5 minutes.
The Normal Will hopefully takes inspiration from Marika and shatter that Ring already. Then again, not sure if we want a Shattering Slapping War as follow up
I always liked the separation of the Greater Will and the Golden Order. We need more fantasy stories where Religious institutions are actually mistaken about what their deities want. Elder Scrolls explores some of that too.
I really like the idea that The Greater Will is not hands on, and that Marika and Radagon are much more at fault for the wars in the lands between. Just like in real life, all wars are created by the assumption of some greater good by the aggressor, but that greater good is more of an enabler than an active force, regardless of its own sapience or lack thereof.
the greater will existed before marika and the golden order and so did the ring/beast, so i agree with u that marika is responsible for her actions. ofc the greater will through the ring and the power it gives definitely had some influence on her, just like money, power and fame would to a normal human in the real world but that doesn't take away from one's accountability. that being said, i think marika had way more free will and was way more responsible for her actions when she was an empyrean and did all the horrible things that she did cuz it appears that after ascending to godhood her and her other part have distinct roles embedded to them, causality and regression.
The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment.
I always imagined that The Greater Will was physically somewhere in outer space, since the Elden Beast was sent to the lands between in a golden star, and so even if it is enormously powerful, it still has to rely on third parties to enact its will such as the Two Fingers and the Elden Beast. One theory I always found really interesting is that the Two Fingers have gone rogue, and since they are The Greater Will's only form of communication it has no way of directly interacting with the lands between. Multiple characters mention that the two fingers are no longer working the way they were intended to, they also have their own church outside of the golden order, and when you give Corhyn the assassins prayer book he considers it heresy, despite being from the Two Fingers
@@thomasdevlin5825I feel like the Greater Will doesn't have a physical form, or embodies the cosmos in some way, which not only explains its name, but still explains the need for vassals and representatives
@@Practicallypreposterousit could really go either way. This world doesn't seem to be a place where gods can instantly transport themselves to a new location. In Ranni's ending you undertake a long journey. Vassals and envoys could be needed because the Greater Will is physically located so far away
I have not played Elden Ring. Being able to say "I may be wrong" and looking at new evidence, is a good trait in life. I respect people that can say that. I also enjoy your videos on games that I have played. You provide thought, analysis, and a perspective that I don't have. Thank you for your content.
As an archaeology student I've always seen fromsoft tory-telling as close as you can get to replicate how a historical investigation would go. Relying too much in just documental evidence will get you so far, there biases, is incomplete and doesn't present the full picture. Thats why I also see value in other elements: diference in architecture, clothing, iconography, real life inspirations, even the burial practises differences tell a story in this game. The scope to understand the lore is so wide and open to interpretation that, in a similar way to real life historial investigaton, is only the work of many people working toghether that this mess can be untangled. that's way things like not fully be able to explain things like what the greater will really is in a single video is not something to be ashamed
@@DanielGarcia-rx3kt I have and I really like his approach, probably personal bias. But it's not perfect representation of how archaeology investigation would go, although is a really good work in that regard
Elden Ring's environmental storytelling is what makes it so special among everything in gaming history, and I'm quite literally tweaking over the fact that very little people find appreciation in it.
I'm glad I found this video because I've been losing this channel but this is the main criticism I was thinking of during the Marika video. In my opinion it would take many moons for the greater will to even get a status update on how its vassal is doing in the same way the 2 fingers needs so much time to hear the greater will.
'The Fingers must be crazy or deceiving us.' Ymir's questline be like 'correct'. Good video, can't wait to see more theories about this now that the DLC has been out for awhile.
even Sir Gideon knew what was up before the dlc he truly is all knowing if you don't know what i meant check the Lord's Divine Fortification description
I love these videos! One thing that I am unclear on re the Two Fingers: later, when something doesn't go as planned (the thorns preventing access to the Erdtree), the Fingers call the GW, and Enia implies that it might take years. This makes it sound like the Fingers don't actually know if the GW is pleased with us specifically, and we don't even know how long it has been since they've actually spoken, and it might just be the case that we are fulfilling whatever the Fingers understand the GW's standing orders to be. It feels like that was supposed to be a reveal that hey, no, there's nobody actually there driving the bus; this could also help explain why the GW needs vassals at all. It's just an interesting thing to consider. I absolutely agree with the idea that we are supposed to read the GW as sentient- even if it is, in fact, not- personifying concepts themselves is a fromsoft trope at this point.
That's the fun fact. They probably fully believe that this is what the GW wants and they think to know that she's pleased and she bless our mission. A very good plot point, the wise and superior Fingers don't know nothing after all.
They probably only get a few transmissions every other millennia And the rest is interpretation In a society ruled by order that's enough because there won't be anything changing, because why would it? Why fix something if it is (presumably) already well oiled? And there it is, a system that worked But oh no here comes the shattering. A fast changing of times, too fast for the two fingers and the greater will And thus the two fingers as the "next in line" made the decisions and credited the greater will
Marika came up with this plan back when she stripped Godfrey and the other Tarnished of their grace. I think Marika had planned for Radagon's unwillingness to be deposed or how much power she had given him. Imo the GW didn't really care until the disorder and chaos overtook the land. Since the Two Fingers communicate using light, I think the amount of time it will take to get a response is supposed to show how far away the GW is from the Lands Between. I believe the TF we interact with in the Roundtable Hold are Marika's TF specifically, and they're trying to maintain the status quo with her in power and the Erdtree intact.
That happens because the Two Fingers were fooled by Marika. This whole time the TF assumed it was the Greater Will who gave grace back to the Tarnished, so they could restore the Elden Ring and become Elden Lord. So, why would the Erdtree block the path for them if the Greater Will is the one who wanted the Tarnished to brandish the Elden Ring? That does not make sense, right? That´s because it wasn´t the Greater Will who gave the Tarnished their grace back. It was Marika all along. It´s Marika who wants us to brandish the Elden Ring, burn the Erdtree and create a new Order. When the TF know that the Erdtree is blocked and the only way in is burning it down, they panick and desperetly try to communicate with the Greater Will.... but it seems they can´t anymore. Becasue the Greater Will abandoned The Lands Between a long time ago. And the only ones who protect what´s left of their precious Golden Order are Morgott and Radagon.
@@pantonpg "Kono Marika Da!" I'm not sure she's doing this fully concious of herself or even if there is One herself right now, but yeah, she was the one behind the return of the tarnished, not the GW.
In Regards to the Greater Will giving Marika/Radagon the "tools" to make the Golden Order, I think something important to remember is that going off the concept that the Greater will is the embodiment of order, It probably gave those tools to make any type of society because it doesn’t really care as long as order exists in some form. additionally, that could also be why it was so angered or displeased with the shattering war, as a Chaotic event such as that is in direct opposition to its fundamental principles.
It didn't care about the war. It was fine with all the previous wars and génócìdés committed in its name. It was only mad because its puppet Marika stopped allowing herself to be its toy.
@@altermirror4063 It's unclear if Placidudax's god was connected to the Great Will, though. Given the faint remnants of gold on his scales it could be the case, but he could also have become gold because of his association with Godwyn.
Super important what you said about believing the Narrator (i.e the item descriptions)! People get downright paranoid about not trusting what's in front of them in this game sometimes, and some foundation is necessary. After all, what's the point of trying to figure out the lore if you don't believe in anything? I think it's super healthy to always take definitive statements in item descriptions at face value - if a description wants us to be uncertain, it will use uncertain language.
There is definitely a contrarian bent to a lot of people's interpretations that just leads to them inventing nonsense basically from whole-cloth to justify why everything we read *must* be a lie.
Examples? Since I don't remember items that say they are seperate. I only remember dialouge that says that, which comes from people that don't know the full context. So it would be nice if you could remind me.@@dgalloway107
@@dgalloway107 Where exactly? Because I can't remember a single item that does lie to the player about Radagon and Marika. It never mentions that Radagon = Marika because it's never relevant to said item.
I think your first point tells us more than you say. The 3 fingers state that the greater will made a mistake. For something to be a mistake it needs more than to be bad or in error. There needs to be intention and specifically that intention needs to be failed. From that alone we know that the greater will must be intelligent and aware. At least enough to make mistakes in the first place. 2 asteroids colliding isn't a mistake it's just an event a mistake would be trying to land on an astroid and crashing into it instead. Both might result in the destruction of colliding objects but that is only a mistake if you care about whether or not the objects are destroyed. An unthinking uncaring thing cannot make nor recognize mistakes. Presuming we trust the 3 fingers anyway
The best part? It's only fingers that have a better grasp what the truth is, it just has a messed up solution which could be as wrong as that of the two fingers
not necessarily true, someone like the 3 fingers and the chaos can say life is a mistake, that doesn't mean life was made by someone or with intentions. i can definitely see someone with a nihilistic perspective say that. i personally don't know if the greater will is sentient or not but one would assume that in a high fantasy setting like this with space gods and all that it would xD i highly doubt though that the greater will gives a fuck other than having a sort of order imposed.
@@metalface_villain "not necessarily true, someone like the 3 fingers and the chaos can say life is a mistake, that doesn't mean life was made by someone or with intentions." But the fact that it's called a "mistake" by the 3 fingers implies the 3 fingers are intelligent, and therefore the two fingers and the greater will probably are, as well.
@@metalface_villain Yep, is fully a Nihilist vision in the worst way. "Life is pain so burn everything." Quite funny after what Shabriri did to the merchants. Also, yeah, GW don't give a total sh*t about what is the order. Malenia, AFTER the Rot, was chosen as an Empyrean, and even with a chance of a Rot Goddess with the Elden Ring, GW did nothing.
Also, after burning the Erdtree, the Two Fingers make a specific pose, and the Finger Reader tells you it's communicating with the Greater Will. If we take the Finger Reader's word for it, an attempt to communicate implies a belief in the possibility of a response, which suggests an intellect or at least sentience.
What I find interesting about the Elden Beast. Notice the big scar on its belly ? There's a theory that since the beast came with the Elden Ring it's somewhat linked to it and so when trying to fracture it the Beast retaliate because it was getting smashed. There's also an attack of the elden beast that crucifies you to a rune and pierces you with dozens of spears so it makes sense if the Beast punished Marika even if it wasnt from a direct order and more from an act of self defense
the elden ring is the elden beast, the scar on it's belly is because of the fracture of the ring. the ring ofc is inside marika/radagon, that's why when ragagon loses the beast comes out to fight us. i think the beast through radagon is indeed responsible for crucifying marika. i think marika wanted a new order and a new lord to change the current order but radagon wants things to go back to what they used to be, that's why he attacks us to take our shards and do exactly that. we know marika shattered the ring because of godwyn but i don't know for sure why she wants a new order and what shape she wants it to take.
@Lee-km7qq Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, that also is the Elden Beast, but there is something more. The connection between the vessel and the Elden Ring is not just the same between a cup and the tea, because we can see Marika's/Radagon's body shattering when she smashed the Elden Ring (The story trailer). So you can say is a being shattering itself and then be punished by itself while the other itself is trying to fix itself. Mr.Miyazaki, even less please.
They're one and the same. I thought the scar was from the ring being taken from its body long ago, much like Marika became the literal vessel for it later.
@@themaniae4803 I'm still confused about that. There's evidence that Radagon was once an independent being, and he merged with Marika due to her kind able to "melt with flesh harmoniously". But why? What on earth does Radagon get out of literally becoming one with Marika?
In the DLC we have learned that mother of fingers was abandoned by the greater will a long time ago, therefore two fingers were only pretending to be it's messengers :
That's not how I perceived it. It's not pretending, it genuinely thinks it's still getting info directly from GW. It doesn't know that it's getting the info from its mother, Metyr, who is aware GW is gone and yet continues to act as its envoy, making it up as she goes based on what she *_thinks_* is what GW wants.
I’m sure someone has mentioned it already, but the remembrance for the optional DLC boss, Metyr, and the descriptions of the items you get from it adds so much to this topic
I wish we knew more about her. She's the first envoy of GW, and the mother of Two Fingers, but then where did Three Fingers come from? And where did GW go? It abandoned Metyr and the lands between, but why?
I think an interesting detail about the Mending Runes is that the source of all three of them are Tarnished: People who have, either directly or indirectly, been removed from the Golden Order, but called upon when things have gotten dire. People who are bringing new ideas to a flawed Order, from their experiences of having to live outside of it. I'm deeply curious as to whether Miquella will be bringing his own, new ending to Elden Ring with the DLC, and what shape that'll take. From what little we know about him, he seems at this point in his life to be fairly dismissive of the Golden Order. It couldn't cure his sister, he's sheltering a bunch of things viewed as malign by the Order in his treehouse, that he was specifically building as a new, alternative tree to the Erdtree, and he's fully divested himself of the body and Grace he was entitled to by birth, in pursuit of something in the Lands of Shadow, which from descriptions seems to be a sort of... oubliette that Marika and/or the Golden Order used for things they didn't want around. Very curious indeed.
*SPOILERS FOR DLC* He was trying to get a different age of compassion to the age of order, and you stop him. So in a sense yes he is trying to make a new ending, but you cut it off in favor of your own ending as Elden lord.
I think it's worth noting that not only do Gold Mask and Mikela but also Marika herself are talked about as researching the Golden Order in order to understand it better. If Marika made up the Golden order from whole cloth why would she need to research it? Why is it implied all three of these characters found something that dismayed them once they found it? Here's to hoping we get more answers in the DLC
Turns out the two fingers might be communicating with Metyr who was the one who once communicated directly with the Greater Will but has not received a message in a long time.
Item descriptions often provide context for where their information comes from, for example, in the elden stars description is starts by saying "It is said that..." Meaning this information is information passed down and not objective fact. I generally assume unless there's a preface or qualifier like this in the description, that the item descriptions are objectively true and that's how I personally make the distinction between objective and subject info within item descriptions
I agree wholeheartedly. I was thinking during the video that knowing that the Elden Beast is only thought by the people of the Lands Between to be consciously sent by the Greater Will is still good information. It potentially not being true doesn’t diminish its value since we are learning about common beliefs of the people there and that informs how we in turn interpret their thoughts and actions.
i think the greater will is dualistic in nature, much like many other characters in the story. grace/order are but one half of the nature of the greater will, while chaos/frenzy is the other half of this same force. this force is not bifurcated in some long forgot conflict, but rather the connection between the two have been perceptually obscured for the denizens of the lands between.
Considering that the frenzy flame is yellow, I don't think this is all that far off. To a greater extent, I genuinely feel as though many aspects of reality that don't fit into the world under the Golden Order could have been removed like the Rune of Death, turning into the outer gods without anything to influence. After all, once the rune of death is finally able to affect the world again after taking Godwyn's body as its shell and it starts to reshape the world in its image just like the rot infecting Caelid and the Haligtree, or the way that Frenzy and the formless mother seemingly alter the people they influence Trememdous facts about reality that hurt, that you don't want to have to acknowledge, but none the less very real and very important. Things get strange if you cut them out, and if they remain seperate then horrible things happen when they make their own independent contact with the world again.
It's ironic how the Greater Will never directly communicated with literally anyone, not Marika or even its own daughter, Metyr. The fingers were busy consulting something that was beyond the microcosm and communication was never directly established. The spear that pierces Marika imprisoned her within the Erdtree, and made it so none could enter the Erdtree was all Radagon's doing in his illustrious attempt to mend the Elden Ring and restore the Golden Order. All those wars and genocide and sealing away Destined Death? That was Marika establishing her vision of a world without suffering and what she had to do in order to achieve something like that.
Honestly it's good to get a fresh perspective on the lore of elden ring coming from more of a meta-physics angle rather than pure in-game lore. You've brought up ideas that even other lore-tubers have yet to bring up that make a lot of sense (IE the Greater Will as an Eldritch being of pure order, being repelled by the discord in the Lands Between).
It is very likely that Marika discovered something that changed her mind on obedience to the Greater Will. There's a bonfire in game where Melina relates Marika declaring her intent to study the Greater Will much closer and sometime after that, she does an almost complete 180 in terms of her own Golden Order from trying to build it up, crush all competitors and make it as strong as possible, to actively betraying it and trying to tear it down. She essentially allows Ranni to steal a piece of destined death and kill Godwyn the Golden. She banishes Godfrey the first Elden Lord and master of the tarnished and basically tells them to become really strong and come back some day emboldened with the flame of ambition. She sends Melina out to find the "chosen" tarnished to assist in this. She IS Radagon, so her then denying the tarnished entry into the Erdtree forcing them to burn it could be another effort to basically destroy the own order she created and, of course, she herself shatters the Elden Ring. What she learned is not completely clear, but the change in behavior could not be more clear. She goes from one extreme to the polar opposite extreme. From doing everything possible to ensure the Golden Order's primacy and superiority over all other factions or ideologies to wanting to the exact opposite of subverting it however she can. After whatever she learned she then devotes all of her efforts to tear down what she had spent her entire life creating, even at the cost of basically the lives of all of her offspring (save perhaps Ranni and/or Miquella?) and her own life as well. I think it is likely that her study of the Greater Will turned up something that disgusted her or some way that she herself had been deceived and/or lied to. I suspect that the Erdtree is a parasite, feeding on everything that returns to it in order to make the Greater Will ever stronger. It is beautiful...and feeding on the entire world over the centuries.
I’m not sure what she discovered but she clearly came to some conclusion. But you are wrong in one respect (in my view anyways for what that counts) radagon and marika are the same person but Radagon is the half that wishes to save the current order marika is the one who broke it that’s why she is impaled and crucified while radagon can whip the hammer out and go bonk bonk But then we must also ask ourselves what if she discovered nothing? What if she found the Elden beast and order and all of it have no real will or purpose and all of the blasphemy she committed in the past was all for not? What if that’s what shadow of the Erdtree will shed light on? What if that’s why miqeulla is doing what he’s doing? This is why I love and hate Elden ring we have a ring of possible and answers but no concrete center, no anchoring rune we can know anything from all we know is that radagon and marika are one and the only philosopher who would know more is wiggling his fam finger at the sky while his apprentice cries in a corner
Parasite theory was always my favorite interpretation of the Erdtree. Isn't their lore about souls who die get absorbed into the Erdtree? Not to mention in the final boss arena, we see tons of Erdtrees in the distance, implying that the Greater Will has more of them in other realms, sending them out like probes. Another cool interpretation IMO is that we the player are the Greater Will, the two fingers being metaphorical for the fingers we use to manipulate the controller and thus the Tarnished. It makes sense, our will is the only one that matters in this world.
The gold imo is kind of like the one ring from Tolkien. It corrupts and consumes anyone who tries to take it over for power. Just look at Marika at the end of the game. It’s just an empty shell. That’s no longer whoever the real Marika was. It’s just like how sorcerers get consumed who try to study the primal current of Star magic. Everyone in this game tries to use something to gain power and they pay the price for it.
I think of the parasitic interpretation to be the one that makes the most sense for me. Power parasite and corrupts and do everything it can to grow stronger and stay alive for as long as possible through whatever means, even it that means being flexible and betraying itself, like it did with the "heretics from the Carian family". If order cannot prevail trough strength, it will redefine itself to prevail through laws. This is what a lifeform looking to survive anything will do : adapt in whatever way it can to overcome any threats. And what better thing to do for a parasite that is just looking to feed from as many worlds as possible ?
Radagon and Marika are not the same person. They share a body, yes, but clearly have different motivations and personalities. The most clear example of this is Marika trying to shatter the Elden Ring while Radagon was the one trying to repair it, according to the description of Marika's Hammer. The Tarnished's return and slaying of the Elden Beast was always what Marika wanted, seeing as how she sent Godfrey away on purpose, and wanted her demigod children to claim their places as gods, lords, what have you. It would make no sense for her to block off the Erdtree, especially when Melina is almost certainly her daughter, and Melina herself was created for the purpose of getting into the Erdtree. Radagon, on the other hand, has been described by Queen Marika herself as a "leal hound of the Golden Order," meaning that she views him as more or less a fanatical dog. His title ingame isn't "Radagon, Second Elden Lord," it's "Radagon of the Golden Order." We never see any sign of Marika developing Golden Order fundamentalist incantations, but we know Radagon personally developed the spell Radagon's Rings of Light as a gift to his son Miquella. In other words, Radagon is consistently characterized as someone whose very identity revolves around the Golden Order. A loyal and dogmatic servant who is even considered a fundamentalist of the Order. It makes perfect sense for someone like Radagon to seal off the Erdtree, because anyone looking to mend the Elden Ring would likely destroy the current form of the Golden Order and create a new one. He doesn't want the world to change - he wants the world to remain stagnant and dead, as long as the Golden Order in its current form is preserved.
It should be taken into account that there is a distinct possibility that there is no Greater Will at all. It could be that everything that has happened that was attributed to the Greater Will is nothing more than happenstance, and that the "Greater Will" is equivalent to Divine Providence in the sense that it is an established cause of events that the majority of people in the Lands Between believe is a thing that can cause things to happen. The Greater Will's abandonment of the Lands Between is just another way of saying 'things suck now, nobody wants to take responsibility for it, so it must be because the Greater Will abandoned us'. There never was a Greater Will present; The land was simply in a Golden Age of prosperity and it was easy to believe it was because a higher power was responsible for all the good things happening. Hands manipulate, that is their physical function in our anatomy. So, the Fingers are manipulators, and I think they are largely responsible for the state of things, perpetuating belief in a thing that does not even actually exist. Combine that with the selfish ambitions of a bunch of bickering demigods and you get the world as it is. All of the so-called Outer Gods could very well be nothing more than natural forces in this universe that individuals learn how to harness and utilize, then start attributing their own biases onto those forces of nature and develop cults around them.
This is my reading as well. It makes me think WAAY back to when Elden Ring was first announced and I read a blurb describing the game along the lines of "the Ambition of humanity".
I think there is an important linguistic point that has been overlooked in this debate. A will is by definition personal. If the Greater Will is impersonal, then it is by definition not a will.
It can also be a very primitive drive or desire. I believe there can be an unconscious or subconscious "will" that a conscious being can discovery, but "will" might not be the best word to describe that. It's definitley mysterious or imperceptibly great or possibly unknowable.
@@pillarmenn1936 In Japanese the word used for "Will" is "意志", which can mean will, intent, and determination. It's never used for things that aren't sentient as far as I can see. So no, as far as Japanese is concerned: the Greater Will IS sentient. In fact, we see plenty of examples in the game of the Greater Will spying on people (Iji's helm), controlling people (Blaidd, Ranni), making choices (abandoning the Demigods to instead call the Tarnished), etc. It's very difficult to argue that it's not sentient imo.
Feedback is always good Don't confuse it with destructive criticism You make good compelling arguments with the knowledge you have Love your videos keep doing what your doing
You don't have to call them "Stupid Mistakes". These explorations are amazing and helps us all suss out whats going on (even if we aren't 100% correct). One thing to consider: Marika is *not* an agent of Order. She has nothing to do with the Golden Order at all. She, in fact, has rebelled against the influence of the GW since day 1. Radagon, OTOH, is the architect and creator of The Golden Order. He implemented it by force, after the Greater Will made him Consort to Queen Marika. Looking at its design, the Golden Order is this mesh latticework that appears almost like a cage or fence. This is to represent the dogmatism and the rigidity that defines the Golden Order. And when Golden Order Fundamentalism wasn't enough to stop The Shattering, he would seal Marika inside of the Erdtree (Golden Order magic is seen bolstering the brambles when we approach before its burned), and then attempt to repair the Elden Ring with what remained in her broken body.
Hmmm... Since day 1! Seems unlikely given the fact that she became its champion, killing and conquering for the sake of the promised Order. Somewhere down the line though a disagreement grew, the inner conflict of which birth two separate sides of Marika, one seeking too further the growth & agenda of the Order, the other being Marika herself who defy's the GW; hence becoming a fell God. I agree with everything else, good analysis. The most remarkable thing to me though, is how 1 became 2? & was it in part this weird incest why Malenia & Miquella came out with issues?
@@painsuzerain6087 well some of the sources are spoilers for the DLC so im gonna hold off on spoiling those. Radagon being the architect of the golden order is in his name: Radagon of the Golden Order, as well as his school of Golden Order Fundamentalism (fundamental meaning foundational). Further, the symbol of the Golden Order is the hatchmark golden symbol, which also featured on statues of Radagon, as well as is containing the Elden Ring during the final fight with Radagon (and even empowering the Brambles at the Erdtree.) Another interpretation is that perhaps Marika *created* the Golden Order, but Radagon was such a GW bootlicker and Order obsessed (again he created the fundamentalist study here), that when Marika spurned the Golden Order, he was there to champion it in her stead, ad he embodied the Order so fully that it was as if he *was* the order.
Radagon wasn't the first consort of Marika, so this is unlikely. While we can alter the ER by adding a mending rune to it, it's not clear that an Elden Lord is even supposed to do that. The Fingers want us to just go to Marika with the Shards and become her consort, like in the the Age of Fracture ending. In the other enings, yeah we can modify the ER, but Marika, by that time is pretty much just a dead vessel, so there is no one to stop us. In Rannis ending it is her, Marika's successor the one who takes the ER and we don't even touch it. Melina at the Erdtree Church is able to recount Marika's words about her wanting to understand and search the depths of the Golden Order. "Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased.". It sounds like she expected this understanig to be a prosperous thing for them. She doesn't sound like someone who is against anything at this point.
Here's a couple of important questions to consider when contemplating the nature of the Greater Will 1. In a scenario where the player defeats Radagon but then dies to the Elden Beast, what would happen next? Would the Elden Beast repair the seal on the Erdtree? Would it return to Radagon and wait for the next challenger? Would it leave the Erdtree and try to return to the Greater Will, or perhaps just rampage until someone defeated it? 2. How far does the scope of the Elden Ring's influence extend? We know it extends across The Lands Between, but we also know other lands exist in this world, like the Land of Reeds or the places across the sea that Marika sent Godfrey and his men. If the rules defined by the Elden Ring govern the natural order of things across the world, and the Shattering War happened centuries ago, then why has no outside nation attempted to take advantage of the civil war stalemate and seize the Elden Ring for themselves? (Keep in mind, the truth about needing to burn the thorns to enter the Erdtree didn't become public knowledge until the player attempts to enter the Erdtree with two Great Runes, so no foreign nation would be aware that only someone with Grace could claim the Elden Ring). Sure, the reputations of the demigods could have scared many of them off, but over that much time, it's hard to believe that no foreign power would try to launch an assault on The Lands Between, or even offer an alliance and military support to one of the demigods to help them win the war.
Well, as for the first one, I would imagine it would simply take the repair rune the player character has and fixed the elden ring. After that, who knows.
Reacting early @2:10 and I've got two thoughts: first, the name, "The Greater Will," implies, well, a will, an entity with wants and goals and some sort of thought, even if it's not in a form we well recognize/understand. It's plausible that that's a misunderstanding on the part of mortals, but that just leads me into point two: Marika can be responsible for shaping the Golden Order but also not be a petulant child in breaking it. She can have either grown to think better of/regret her past choices, or have been fully convinced that she wasn't the one making those decisions and believe herself to be rejecting a higher power, not realizing that that was always in her own power. Either way, she actually still paints the picture of someone who has come to reject their past as mistaken and misguided and seeking to redress those crimes as she is able.
I look forward to seeing what information on the Golden Order the DLC gives us. I get the feeling Miquella has some pretty damning information on the religion considering the lengths he's gone to to distance himself from it and gain access to the place that Marika is (supposedly) from. Messmer being excluded from the original pantheon of demi-gods despite clearly being a child of Marika himself will also be interesting.
Regarding who punished Marika: The elden beast has a grab attack in which the player is held aloft on a rune (exactly like Marika) and pierced by innumerable golden light spikes. Still not clear on the red spear but it's something 🤷🏻♂️
The separation of Marika and Radagon is the most crucial point to understand what the Greater Will is I think. So we have Marika, who becomes the "vessel" of the Greater Will and uses the Elden Ring to create her personnal vision of order (since she takes the rune of death out of it and locks it away). She then charges Maliketh to look after the rune of death and punishes him with a monstruous fate when he fails to protect it, kinda showing us she doesn't really give a fuck about her "shadow" given to her by the Greater Will / Two fingers. Since the Elden Ring was supposedly sent to the world by the Greater Will, it is safe to assume that the original state of the Elden Ring was the one the Greater Will wished it was used in. Thus, Marika taking out some parts of it seems to already be suspicious and probably the start of her rebellion. But, since the Greater Will has no one else "compatible enough" to carry out his bidings, he basically lets it slide for a while seeing that Marika's Golden Order is actually bringing a form of order and stability to the world. Marika creates the Erdtree out of the crucible and marries Godfrey, gets him to kill the giants, killing two birds with one stone by bending the crucible to her order and eliminating her fiercest competition. At one point during or after that, the Greater Will nerfs Godfrey by slapping a shadow on his shoulder just to be safe until he and his army are of no use to her anymore. The next step of going "whoops! No grace? Too bad, guess you will have to exile with your most loyal soldiers and leave me to rule... alone... See ya!" is only logical at that point. I would say it was probably also motivated by the fact that 2 thirds of the children from this marriage were sporting proof of the Crucible's influence, which is a big no-no if the goal is for the Erdtree to be the new symbol of the order. Lock the deformed children and send the father with defective DNA away, problem solved. Other things happen, persecussions, fuck ups and genocides aplenty, all in the name of the Golden Order, until the whole unification conquests come to a grinding halt while facing Raya Lucaria and the Carian Nobles. That's when the Greater Will probably goes "You know what, I think it's time I intervene because you are not doing too well right now". Thus, in similar fashion as the Rot with Malenia (since Malenia does everything she can to go against the Rot in an unwinable battle for the control of her body), the Greater Will basically hijacks Marika's body and shapes it to become Radagon and go conquer Raya Lucaria through the same type of diplomacy Marika used with Godfrey. We now have a Greater Will controled Radagon seducing Rennala, ending a never ending war and recruiting their forces. Making another batch of children in the process, this time all of them being actually pure of the influence of the Crucible, absolute win all around. And then, since the Greater Will doesn't understand how humans work except the whole "make them fuck to create other humans just in case", he thinks it's a good idea to make Radagon go back to Leyndell and see if he cannot make even better children by somehow using both Marika and Radagon at the same time. This backfires HEAVILY since Renalla loses her mind, her children see this and, since it is proven they are a tight-knit kind of family and you can clearly see in game that Ranni cares about her mother, it plants the seeds of rebellion into Ranni's mind. Meanwhile, the Greater Will, having not clue what the risks of incest are, manages to create of pair of Empyrean by making a god fucking itself. Great success!!! Except that Empyreans are apparently beacons for outer gods to posess since the Rot snatches Malenia at spawn and Miquella doesn't go past infancy stage. Fuck... There is also Melina but I think it's more like a shard of Marika or something more than a real child. But, anyway, everything is going great! Both the position of God and Elden Lord are occupied by the same person, the Greater Will has a "Radagon body snatcher" button in case Marika ever fucks up again and he has replacements "just in case, even if the are kind of fucked up but they will do. But, wait, what is the daughter from the brutally divorced librarian doing? AH FUCK! Here comes Ranni, who says "fuck this shit and fuck the Greater Will in particular" and commits a 50/50 suicide with unwilling participant Godwyn, first child of Marika, all around good boy and the only one who wasn't either sick, completely depraved, a reminder of the crucible or litterally stopping the stars just because he liked his horse so much. Not only does that shit SEVERELY undermines the Golden Order power, it also and most importantly affects Marika A LOT, who takes control of her body long enough to break the Elden Ring in a final act of defiance towards the Greater Will. Unhappy outer god punishes Marika so she is tortured while he has no use of Radagon, and the whole plan becomes an absolute shit-show. And we arrive at what the three fingers said "The Greater Will made a mistake". That mistake was Marika. Marika who, from day one, took an important part out of the Elden Ring. Marika who told Maliketh to sit down and munch on death root after his mistake and so without remlrse. Marika who married a barbarian who followed the Crucible that the Greater Will had to restrain before sending him away. Marika who struggled to conquer Raya Lucaria, forcing the Greater Will to intervene and create Radagon. Marika who, seeing her oldest and most perfect son die (which is the worst case scenario that wasn't supposed to ever happen) by the hands of another child she probably had against her will or at the very least while not being in control of her own body, finally loses the last of her marbles and shatter the Elden Ring. Well, not necesarilly Marika but the idea that the Greater Will could just order humans around, even taking control of their bodies when things didn't go fast enough for it's taste, without expecting any deviation or repercussions from his plan. The mistake of the Greater Will was expecting perfect order from flawed individuals. It's not that the Greater Will doesn't think or doesn't care. It's just that he does not understand how humans work. Perfect Order can never hope to understand Chaos. I'm still unsure if the recall of the tarnished is from the Greater Will or Marika herself. Would be a nice last middle finger to the outer god to basically call back your ex-husband who was so strong and popular that you had to handicap him by fear of what he could do.
Dont feel bad brett! Elden ring is hugely about interpretation and bringing ideas to the table and talking about stuff is what the souls-kiro-bourne-ring community is all about! Yours are among my favorite lore videos to watch and i think your community appreciates the honesty to address areas you missed or misunderstood. Keep at it man🤙
I think Goldmask's Mending Rune gives solid evidence that a lot of the BS happening is simply due to Marika and other gods: "The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment." So all the mistreatment of Omen, the in-fighting, "blasphemous" things, etc. can pretty much be blamed on the representatives of the Golden Order and not the Greater Will itself. I think its only influence is the Elden Beast and whatever force allows it into people's heads.
I disagree with this reading bcs the treatment of the omen is exactly the kind of flaw goldmask is attempting to remove by removing the interference of fickle gods such as Marika
I think you've overlooked a key detail. The Tranished's guidance and immortality. These come from the Greater Will. And no matter what ending you choose, it never revokes these. It has revoked it for many others, but never you. Another lesser detail I think you should reconsider is Dungeater and Goldmask. Despite how vastly different they are, their heraldry is shockingly similar. A Sun. A great light inspired both men onto their paths to creating their mendings runes. They weren't just random Tarnished. Something directed them both.
We now know that the Greater Will is gone. Metyr, Two Fingers, and the Elden Beast are acting independently, thinking they're acting on behalf of GW but in reality are just making it up, blindly going off of what they *_think_* GW wants.
Considering the cosmic nature of the Greater Will, I'm not sure if we can know what its true nature is. The people in the Lands Between and even the two fingers think they know, but we see that the Two Fingers seem to be making stuff up as they go and when they aren't sure what they do anymore they panic and try to communicate which will take an unknowable amount of time. We can either guess that it just really takes a long time to communicate with the GW, that the GW has actually abandoned the Lands Between and that the Two Fingers just don't want to believe it, or that the Two Fingers are buying time to figure out what to do next. I'm not sure what exactly they're doing, and I'm not sure we can know for sure, but I do think that it adds to the cosmic mystery of the GW. People want to say they understand the GW, but I'm not sure anyone in the Lands Between can truly understand it. Maybe getting close to understanding it is what led Marika to shatter the Elden Ring like she did. To me it seems that the developers do want us to believe that the GW is a being that we can understand, but then when we learn about the Elden Beast and see what it is, we have to question that notion, what on earth kind of being could create the beast and send it here, is it something that we can ever truly understand?
So, there's a concept that exists in cosmic horror that few people really delve into because it's hard to wrap your head around. Cosmic forces could just 'intersect' with reality, without necessarily fully noticing that it's doing so. If the Greater Will is a sentient and engaged entity, it could just be a screaming cosmic mind that only really influences the world in passing. It COULD be communicated with, but only in so much as you can interface with a computer. The Elden Ring itself is the physical representation of the laws of reality, so perhaps the Greater Will is the 'console' that is used by any given being to alter, interact with, or in Merika's case damage, parts of how conceptual reality functions.
I sometimes wonder if people have been misinterpreting that description on the Elden Stars thing. Was it the Elden Beast that became the Elden Ring, or was it the golden star that bore it? Because when we see the Elden Beast, it’s definitely not the Elden Ring. The Ring was right there inside Marika/Radagon, and the Beast grabbed it up along with their corpse to make that sword. Wouldn’t it make more sense for the star to have become the Ring?
FatBrett! Forget not that you enter the Elden Ring fandom and community showcasing your singular perspective, your impression of the game. And thag the reason so many “smart” people are quick and wanting to add their own understanding, is that they’ve had *two years* thus far of comparing and contrasting their own beliefs with everyone else who has made videos! There have been countless minute discoveries and connections that shape the whole of certain characters, things that are impossible for one person alone to find and understand completely! I also find that taking all descriptions including “it is said” to be true is generally good for appreciation of Elden Ring’s story. The moment you start to pick and choose reduces the impact and authenticity of *all* beautiful little stories about the world, like Lansseax having a human form, the legend of the Blue Dancer, the fundamental nature of Destined Death, and so on. For me, personally, it’s easier to appreciate the whole when you reconcile *all* those implied connections to fill in the context of the Lands Between’s history. I really liked your thorough explanation of the Greater Will as it appears narratively! Keep up the good work!
As long as there is order that's what the greater will likes. Actually, this has been a common sentiment in the lore community for sometime if I recall....
My thoughts about the three fingers is that they are the most honest out of all, what we know is that they communicate via their fingerprints, they can't change those and they are pretty much repeating themselves all the time and well they go straight to the point, Burn everything with the yellow Chaos Flame, the only other one is hayetta who tells us what their fingerprints say, in order to communicate with the two fingers the message has to go through the two finger themselves since they share what they greater will says and from what we saw they aren't actually communicating at the moment or since who knows when they haven't talked and the the message has to come through another individual that being the finger reader.
In theories, I like to believe that, mistakes are not mistakes, but new ideas. I love your previous video on this topic. I love your idea of true nature of things. It also help me see things differently and made me much more acceptance to daily human interactions.
As a friend of mine likes to say, "Your not stupid, you're ignorant, You can't cure stupid." The fact that you willingly express frustrations about messing up, and that you're willing to go back and look at things from another angle to get what you feel is a better answer for us proves that you aren't stupid.
the dlc reveal that the mother of fingers was long broken really fights against the chapter of the Two Fingers "[The Two Fingers must be insane or manipulative.]" insane. absolutely insane
Everything that happened in the story is suspect now because. Spoilers: The greater will hasn't communicated once with the mother or any of it's children including the two fingers.
About the mistake the three fingers are talking about : The mistake is the gift of life. Elden Ring's origin, according to the 3 finger's dialogue, seems to be pretty akin to the lord of Dark Souls (which is partially why I believe that what is being told here is NOT a lie) : The world was gray and unchanging and uniform, with neither life nor death, nor anything, really. The gift of life, that came from the fracture (from the Fire, in Dark Souls), created all those variances : life and death, order and chaos, etc... all the good but also all the bad : death, pain, despair... The battle between the factions (or the cosmic gods, really) of Elden Ring is nothing more than philosophy, with each faction representing a point of view and clashing with the others, in a battle to determine which one is "right". The 3 fingers probably came to be because order existed, as they represent pure chaos. No matter what, they're the absolute antithesis to the order. Order seeks to build, organize and control, therefore the chaos seeks to destroy everything in a senseless chaos. It's kind of a yin-yang dynamic. And just like the order seeks to maintain itself "alive", chaos seeks to make everything melt away and fuse again together. When there is absolutely nothing, there is no chaos but there is no order either. Chaos does not care for self-preservation, which is why it is called madness : because it goes against everything that life is about. That's probably also why the madness incantations can be just as harmful to you as they are to your enemies.
My brain added to your lines regarding the fingers. 'they could by insane or lying manipulators' and we've neved seen that in a fromsoft game *spin camera to Frampt & Kaathe*
Minor Erdtree Incantation “Secret incantation of Queen Marika. Only the kindness of gold, without Order.” “Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal.” Secret incantation because the Greater Will can’t find out or she’d be punished. After all no one else would care or question what she used & only the Greater Will would know it contains no Order. I honestly believe this incantation explains the whole dynamic between Marika & the Greater Will. The first video seems to make much more sense with that in mind.
I always had this weird idea that after marika broke the elden ring it was radagan following the belief of the greater will who punished himself and marika by locking themselves in the erdtree
A great video! I am very happy to have found your channel! There is another excellent video called „the greater will doesn’t care about you“ (something along those lines). The main point is: any order, be it of rott, of gold, of despair or of compassion is fine with it. That’s why it chose Melenia as an emphyrian - only some demigods were chosen and she started (by accident) to create the order of rott in Caelid as the sage says. I think to say that it at least is the abstract concept of order it self is valid for the greater will. And I think it’s quite undisputed that Radegon sealed the entrance: one of the headpieces literally describes the pattern visible on the thorns as „his rune“.
Hey man, go easy on yourself. Nobody on this site, reddit, or any other platform has it all figured out; even big names like Smoughtown, Tarnished Archeologist, etc., have all had to make corrections, had their ideas debunked, or otherwise failed to give a holistic view of these things. Elden Ring is From's biggest most complicated piece to explore yet and we still don't even have the DLC which is incredibly important for these stories- imagine trying to recount the accurate history of Lordran without knowing about The Ringed City & humanity's role as slave knights or truly answering the mysteries of the Healing Church of Yarnahm while being unable to reference the events at The Fishing Hamlet - it's impossible. You're doing fantastic for what we have and even those older titles still have loose threads we'll likely never completley put to rest. Thank you for another fantastic and thought provoking video, honestly I've been of two minds on this subject for a long time but feel better with my leaning towards TGW being intelligent and emotional in some way at least now. Have a wonderful day my dude; looking forward to more great stuff from you.
Your videos are a sick jumping off point for a lot of deep thinking and conversation and thats why im here for them. I often disagree with you but the endeavor you took to dive so deep is foundational for any thought i had at all on the matter at hand.
I think I just became convinced that the character responsible for the item descriptions in the game is The Greater Will itself. I've heard it suggested that TGW is similar to an amalgamation of the desires and needs of the inhabitants of The Lands Between and I feel this fits with it being a remnant of The One Great in that it is connected to all living things since everything was once part of it in the past. Furthermore it would explain why the item descriptions use language like "it is said that..." because it only knows the general consensus and accepted knowledge of things, and even why the descriptions are vague or inconclusive; that's the most that is known by the people of the lands between. Perhaps this even explains why TGW did not respond when the Two Fingers of the Roundtable Hold sought guidance after the player discovers the Erd Tree is sealed; no one knew Radagon had barred entry. A bit of a tangent but, This could be why chaos repels TGW, dissenting opinions muddy the water and confuse TGW until it's too fractured and self-contradictory to have any meaning. This is where The Frenzied Flame comes in, a separate fracture of TOG that has resonated with the pain, suffering and insanity that has befell human kind. The fact that TFF's counterpart is the three fingers I feel is significant, not only is it a greater number of total digits that perhaps implies it is a larger part of TOG than even TGW; but it also includes a thumb which is stated to be what designates those who possess sapience. I might have never had this line of thought without your videos and I thank you for the opportunity to stoke my imagination.
Actually, the way the frenzied Flame talks about the GW and one great actually impiles they were always serprate things and the Greater will was able to break apart the ane great to create souls and life. This could actually imply the Greater Will actually predates life and existence itself and used the one great to make them. Its also probably not best to think the 3 and 2 fingers go together to make one hand as it would raise the question of what about the mutiple other 2 fingers that exist with in the land between
I actuality do believe that the Two Fingers are lying, or are actuality delusional. When you defeat Morgott, and your path to the Erdtree is blocked, that seemed to have stumpted the Two Fingers (the one in the Roundtable Hold, specifically, since we know there are more than one Two Finger). I think each Two Finger have wills, and desires of their own, in similar ways to how priests in our own world, and the Two Fingers in the Roundtable Hold had its own plans, and that plan was to have the Player Tarnished to become the Elden Lord, in the way that the Roundtable Two Fingers wanted it, and it was leveraging its supposed connection to the Greater Will, to claim some authority, but once the path to the Erdtree was blocked, the Two Finger didn't know what to do, and from that point, the Two Finger goes silent for the rest of the game.
If the Greater Will did not have sentience or any other motivation than “order,” it would just be full-sending on Shabriri and the Flame of Frenzy’s plan. Their plan is to melt everything into One, which would create ultimate order.
I really feel like people hear the word order they jump to the belief it must mean control and authority and that as a force of order, the Greater Will must need control. Dispute being a force of Order the Greater Will is more linked more with evoultion and change as it has allowed mutiple orders to arise that has different views and was behind the craziness of the Crucible It seems like we must widen our view of what order truly means to better understand what the Greater Will
for something to be ordered. it just needs structure, and a design with a clear set of predefined rules that governs its function or purpose. order is NOT simply authority or rule. it is the make up, and rules in which sets up that authority
Metyr, mother of fingers which was sent by the greater will was defective. Probably it started when Metyr influenced Marika to become a god and a vessel of the Elden Ring. The Tarnished is Greater Will’s attempt to fix it all; from killing all the gods, to making new order.
I think it's pretty compelling that the greater will is some type of physical being. If you look at all of George RR Martin's writings, I think there may only be one instance where we have an actual confirmed literal God influencing the story. In all of his other stories, most of which are science fiction, the gods of said story are actually just people or physical beings that happen to have great power and use that power to affect change in the world or universe around them, oftentimes by influencing people through more subtle means like sending dreams and visions. So the way I see Eldon ring, this is just an extension of many of the same themes that George RR Martin has been using his entire writing career. Essentially, Elden Ring is a story about some very powerful space being influencing what is ostensibly a medieval society and thus the vocabulary we can use to describe these outer gods is limited by the understanding of a medieval society where technological advancement is relatively minimal because people have certain abilities that us in our world would call magical. However in George RR Martin's writings this wouldn't be magic, but really just abilities that some people have much the same way that some people are better at sports than others. It's also worth noting that George RR Martin wrote an essay where he talks about what he calls the furniture rules wherein he sees no difference between the genres of science fiction and fantasy. George argues that they are essentially one in the same and the only difference between the two is typically just the aesthetic. A person in a medieval society who can teleport would be in a fantasy story, but the ability to teleport might be seen as a science fiction trope. Essentially, the stories are all the same between fantasy and science fiction, but whether a story is considered fantasy or science fiction really just depends on what furniture is in the room at the time. Are there wooden tables rushes and horses or are there metal tables windows and spaceships?
Item descriptions in Soulsborne games appear to be a reliable narrator who's not allowed to tell you the whole truth Reliable, but consistently incomplete or vague, and keen on sharing local myths and beliefs with you (with prefacing indicating it)
I don’t think anybody has the full picture of what the hell the greater will is, which is what makes videos like this so fascinating, exploring different ideas and theories. Of course people are going to get stuff wrong, but that doesn’t make a video meritless, it’s interesting hearing speculation and new perspectives. Keep up the great work and stay curious!
I do believe the greater will will accept any kind of order as long as one exists The Golden Order was formed by the plucking of Destined Death, probably as Marika's answer to the Gloam eyed queen's attack on her demigod children and attempt to take the throne as an Empyrean I think the Golden Order's aversion to death is built on a more emotional root than their Fundamentalism dictates, since they incorporated so much into the order before and after In Marika's own words, she decided to study the depths of the Order. Given the term she uses this was probably after Death was banished. She would understand what cosmic thing they are actually dealling with And what she found was so maddening she decided to shatter the whole thing at the cost of herself and possibly the world Or maybe she answer she found with Radagon is that the best thing for the world was for nobody to sit on the throne, for no rule to take place, for Order to be forever out of reach Maybe that's why she collaborated with Ranni if that was the case (Maliketh says she betrayed him and I can only think of the stealing of Death as something he would consider a betrayal)
There's always one thing sort of off about the spear that had impaled Marika. It looks to be a crimson red, similar to some bloodflame arts. I'm willing to bet we'll find out if Messmer was involved at all in her punishment when the DLC comes out for the rest of the community
This is such a great video analysis and it just opens my persepectives even more. So I recommend you look into the videos of Vaati, Smough Town, Tarnished Archaeologist, Lokey, Ziostrom, Ratatoskyr, Miss Chalice, and many Elden Ring Lore theories To have you knowledge expand more.
I personally believe that the Greater Will is a true Lovecraftian deity. it is therefore endowed with intelligence but reasons through canons and concepts that are completely foreign to us (it is therefore a cross between a chaotic force and an intelligent individual). at the same time this would explain why it needs so many channels to communicate (the two fingers, marika, the elden beast...). furthermore one wonders why such a powerful and conscious entity does not act directly on the world. if you see the Greater Will as a Lovecraftian deity this problem is quickly solved. there are various possibilities: - it is, like many gods in the Lovecraft mythos, stuck in a sort of higher or detached plane of existence from which it can only influence the world (this is also suggested by other deities in the game, the formless mother, for example, can " appear" to Mohg only via portals) - it is so different and alien in his ways of acting and reasoning that it cannot help but use intermediaries - it has a problem similar to that of the Combine in Half Life, that is, it is too powerful and therefore what happens on the "planet" of the game is only one of the countless cosmic events on which he is acting and he doesn't care what happens on just one of these (Sorry for bad english 🙃)
Great video! The only real suggestion I have (and I completely forgot why I think this, so grains of salt all around) is that the Golden Order is specifically the order we had after Marika removed the rune of death from the Elden Ring. The Greater Will is a god of order, but Marika/Radagon is directly responsible for the Golden Order.
1:40 Marika, godfrey and radagon definitely are responsible for the genocides that happen in the lands between, Marika tells godfrey to put the giants to the sword and the greater will does not actually tell her to do it she just does it on her own. plus in the shadow of the erd tree trailer mentions seduction and betrayal while showing marika standing in front of a literal corpse mountain so marika has no problem getting people killed.
Radagon is a little less guilty because, if you think, his war ended with a wedding and diplomacy and the open of the GO to magic, even if Star destiny now is a taboo. And, funny thing about the Giant War, probably Marika Herself ""slayed"" the God of Giants and then cursed the last one. That Corpses mountain in dlc trailer maybe could be the Crucible and not just corpses, but we see later a genocidal war in the land of shadow so yeah, she still is an *sshole.
I've been watching your videos for a long time and honestly all of them are great. Don't feel stupid for voicing your interpretation of art. There's no right or wrong when it comes to interpretation of art. I love watching your videos and I'll keep watching them because what you have to say is always interesting. Thanks for putting in so much effort for each video you make.
3:50 - I'm sorry, but did that 3 fingers maiden just describe an allegory to the big bang? Because that's what it sounded like, and if that's the case... then she's not wrong...
Wow, i'm really surprised. Very few people can even think about the possibility to change their opinion, but admit it on youtube before their followers? Damn, I liked you as a content creator, now I really respect you as a person. Especially now that a lot of "open-mind" content creators blocks everyone who even say a little word against their opinion. You're cool dude. About the video, this time more than corrections, i'll just help sendind some information and japanese translation, just to put every piece in their place if possible. Again, please everyone be gentle and civil. 1-Hyetta and Three Fingers English is good but Japanese is even more clear. "...Everything was separated from the one, greater thing. It was separated, born, and had a heart. But it was a mistake of the great will. Pain, despair, and curses. Every sin and suffering. They were all born from mistakes. That's why they must be put back together. With the yellow fire of chaos, everything will be burned and melted. Everything will become one, greater thing..." Separate everything from the one, greater thing was a mistake of the Greater Will. High probably this mistake was, as you said, create the conditions of life and, probably, life itself (Golden Rune 3 says "Even now, runes are still imbued with the power of life itself") and they hate GW because, yeah, for them Life is Pain and they want to melt everything. About the One Great, more probably it was the Nothing before the universe or a chaotic mass of everything that, in the end, is nothing. Nothing canon about this, maybe the GW was something above this One Great, or part of it, or it's Will to be separated, who knows. And, i add something. In this case, if the GW created, in the end, everything from this One Great, even other gods are something from the GW, and that's why it don't care of them too. (Maybe except the one of Franzied Flame, that seems to be her total opposite.) 2- Unfortunately Berhnal was another character brutally cutted, like Vyke. We only know he was angry for his Brother and then we find him in Farum Azula. That means he burned his own Maiden like Melina did for us? Even it's relationship with GW is not clear. I think he was angry with her because he listened the fingers and thought GW is the one who have the fault of his mission. 3-There is a rule about Dark Souls and Souls games: Intro and Descriptions are always True, while Characters can lie. It's not a written rule but if we start to think descriptions and intro lies, then all the things we know could be fake. Of course Intro and descriptions let some shadow zone, like Dark Souls don't tell you how much time passes between the birth of the First Flame and the War with Dragons. Gwyn was king and he has an Uncle, not talking about and army with ability to create armors and weapons. I don't think they were born with those, so maybe centuries passed in a couple of dialogues. This just to say: if the Intro says the GW abandoned the Lands Between, that's true. Even because they say GW is pleased and then take centuries just to call her? Also, i don't think they was lying, because they're shocked like us before Radagon's brambles. They believed in what they was saying, so much that not even try to talk with her until now. 4- Yeah, high probably was the Elden Beast who imprisoned Marika and Radagon was took in the fury, even because in that moment they was sharing the same body as we see in the Intro/story trailer. Elden Beast also have a special attack that literally crucify us like Marika. Also, probably this is why the Elden Beast attack us: It's a hurted beast, and hurted beasts defend themself with anything. 5- High probably, the Great Treason of the Nox was killing their own Fingers with the Fingerslayer, or at least tried it, because Ranni want to do the same thing and it's called Great Treason too. When this is happened is pretty unknown, probably long before Marika was even born, because later she has a sort of relationship (Probably they was her maidens) with the future assassins, that where Numen like her and also descendants of the Eternal Cities. Also, we can see that GW cares a little about her vassals, enough to be angry. (Abouth the famous theory of GW make them fall in the ground, look at the cities. They're build underground, not fell.) 6 and 7-Nothing to say, same point of point 3. 8-About a phisical body, well, it's very complicated in a world where Mohg can hurt a Formeless outer god to create blood spells and we fight ghosts, spirits and even remembrances. Especially because in this world Water, Space and Underworld are quite the same thing, like Bloodborne. (We fight a remembrance of Rennala, on a giant sea with the Moon on the orizon, or the dream of Godwyn on a smelly swamp, or Loretta on a big pound.) So yes, Gw could have a phisical body, but... probably is something too f*cked to understand it. 9-High probably the Two Fingers have a connection with the GW and they ""know"" it enough to think what is correct, but in the same time they are fools and probably a little mad. They believe all they say is true, that our mission is blessed by the GW, taking our return as a sign of her presence. But, when they find out the locked door of the Erdtree, they are shocked like us and go to talk with her, taking centuries. And this only if GW will ever take that call. 10- I noticed you talk about Marika and Radagon, and a lot of people hates Radagon and think he's a total fanatic. if you'll talk about him in a single video, please to read a lot of his lore, because is quite the opposite, but i'll tell something a little here. Take his title, King Consort, Prince Consort in japanese. In our world, King/Prince consort is the partner of the regnant queen and, except some influence, he have No official power. This means, all the big decision of the Golden Order, was all and only Marika's fault. This is also confirmed from how she calls him, Dog of the Golden Order, where she was the boss. Sure, he's not a perfect guy, but even Morgott or Radahn were both Pro-Golden Order. (P.s if you want more info on Radagon, don't be shy to ask.) Talking about the Elden Ring, yeah, it's very editable. As we can see, at least 4 runes were influenced by their owners, Malenia's, Rykard's, Mohg's and Radahn's. And, if you think a moment, Radagon gave Rennala the Egg with the Rune inside it. A long before the Shattering. (Someone thinks that was the rune that Marika used to create Radagon himself.) And of course, the Rune of Death. 11-This point is totally my speculation and addition to the discussion, something to conferm that the GW is a intelligent entity. It's name is literally Greater WILL. And ethereal living concept don't have a Will.
I think another important note is that Placidusax's existence proves that the concept of an Elden Lord being paired with a God has existed throughout the history of the lands between, even before the erd tree ever existed. Which I think really goes to show the point of the Greater Will not caring about the exact form of the golden order, more just exerting influence through this generally applicable system of a Lord + a God ruling the lands
I think FatBrett's interpretation is correct, that the Greater Will created the Elden Ring with Modularity in mind, if you were the Vessel you could add or remove pieces if you wanted to, to create a civilization based on your own Ideals and beliefs
I remember one point made in another lore video I saw some time ago, though I don't remember who did it: Radagon and Marika are the same person, sharing the same body most likely, as we see one become the other in the final battle. The video I saw theorized that Radagon sealed the Erdtree, tried to mend the Elden Ring as Marika smashed it, because he was having an existential crisis. He was a part of someone else and wanted to use the Golden Order to understand himself and Marika. He doesn't want to let go of the Order that gives him comfort, hope of being his own individual. I don't think I can do the theory full justice with what I remember, but I thought it was interesting. The video also mentions how alchemy has a lot of influence in Elden Ring's world, at least inspiring it.
So three points I have plus an addendum: 1. The Greater Will being Law vs Sentient: There's a lot of space inbetween the two positions, for example the Greater Will could be as sentient as say the English Parliament. Perhaps it isn't a force of nature and has an agenda, but at the same time not be a singular being. We actually know very little about the Greater Will itself. 2. Characters and Item Descriptions are Honest and Accurate: While I agree that these are by and large honest, I read them as if a medieval society is trying to describe the experience of a UFO dropping down making contact and introducing them to incomprehensibly advanced technology. Which is to say, there is a certain degree of interpretation involved that could (not always) impact accuracy of statements. 3. The Two Fingers as Representatives of the Greater Will: Citing Enia after beating Morgot - "It may be thousands upon thousands of moons before the fingers again offer their guidance. My, oh, my. Whatever will you do..." It appears that there can be significant communication delay between the Two Fingers and the Greater Will, as such it is very possible that while the Two Fingers try their best to represent the Greater Will there can be long stretches of time where the Two Fingers have to use their own judgement and carry out what they *think* is the intent of the Greater Will. Addendum: My man, you are not stupid and your theories are valid and you are not misunderstanding anything! While I did type out three short counter-points, I can in no way claim that they are definitive and/or disprove anything you have said. There is a lot of missing information, and I expect even post-DLC there will be still lots of missing information. If any counter points I or others have raised help you refine and/or elaborate your theories all the better, but if not... toss 'em! Your videos are solid!
One thing that could lessen Marika's crimes and involvement with the Golden Order a bit, is her lines that Melina recount's about her intent on searching and understanding the depths of the Golden Order. Which implies that she had no full understanding of it. I wonder if the Fingers have a saying in the matter of what form the Order is going to take, since they are the ones choosing the candidates for inheriting the Elden Ring like the Gloam Eyed queen, Malenia, Miquela and Ranni. The interesting thing is that Ranni doesn't have an issue taking the ER and becoming the next God after she took care of her Two Fingers. She mentions that she won't allow them to control her, but she never mentions the Greater Will, she only has a beef with the Fingers. IMO it is possible that the Fingers are doing their own little schemes. They were happily praising us and saying the GW is pleased while they had no idea what's going on with the Erdtree, and once we reach it and it turns out it wont let us pass, they finally decide to communicate with the GW. There is also the fact that the Fingers have their own churches, teachings and assasins (confessor set and TF incantations) which kinda shows their duplicitous nature. Oh and they are giving the Empyreans their bodyguards that supposed to turn against them if they go against the Fingers.
@@iamperplexed4695 Matter of perspective I guess, but I mean technically Marika is just a person who achieved godhood by getting the Elden Ring and commited a bit of salvery and genocide here and there. Mending Rune of Perfect Order's description just calls out Marika as no better than men despite her godhood.
@Lee-km7qq In the english version the dialogue is also somewhat positive, it sounds hopeful about that they are going to increase their own faith. I doubt Marika shattered the ER because of Godwyn. Partially there are a lot of evidence pointing towards that Marika was involved in the Night of the Black Knives.(Although Ranni hijacked it halfway through.) The other reason is, she sent away the tarnished way before that, so she already had a scheme going on. Ranni's and the Fingers' situation is not a religious issue, she is literally forced into a situation by the fingers in which she essentially a hostage to them. They gave her a bodyguard who is meant to kill her if she ever goes against the Fingers' wishes.They chose her to succeed Marika, just because they decided she is a good enough candidate.She went as far to killed herself, so they won't have control over her. It's not about being in a differnt religius group. She was also taught to fear the Dark Moon. Her whole theme and goal is about people should make their own decisions without divine guidance, that is why she leaves and theakes the ER(a thing that was sent by the GW and she happily takes it without having to fear the Fingers control over her).
@dantoki6371 That's because it's written from the perspective of men, not gods. If those things are required to achieve goddesshood, then so be it, such is the way. Real people have done the same for the promise of lesser rewards on the daily.
@@iamperplexed4695 The whole plot of the game proves those lines to be true. She is still just a human, with human emotions, ideas and flaws. Her godhoodnes is not that impressive either, she is just one vessel of the ER as many was before her and there were already successors chosen for her. The Fingers, the GW and the Elden Beast are above her. I don't know what you are trying to prove with the last line? If people do bad things to achieve some great goal then that is fine because a lot of them have done it for less? Okay, if that is a good enough justication for you, but this part is a bit subjective at the end of the day.
I don't think you should feel like your videos are incomplete. I actually really enjoy hearing different perspectives on these things, and I almost always leave your videos with a new perspective I never would've considered otherwise. At risk of sounding a little cynical, most lore guys either reiterate things said in other videos, or they stay as vague as possible to avoid sounding incorrect. To avoid speaking our thoughts in fear of being wrong wouldn't allow these discussions to happen. If we're never allowed to be wrong, we can never learn why we were wrong, and thus can't improve how we think. That said, I really hope you keep making videos about Elden Ring, and even other Fromsoft games and games with a similar kind of storytelling. I've really enjoyed your perspectives so far, and I'm looking at things in the story now in ways that I hadn't been before.
I don't know if it helps but I like the source and form of narration and item description as a rule of thumb for how literal I want to take it's information, like how the elden remembrance explicitly says "It was the vassal beast of the greater will" but the description of elden stars begins with "It is said that" which implies the only thing that can be taken at face value is that people believe as much, at least I believe games like this that pay so much attention to detail to their world building are similarly careful with their wording for such a distinction to matter.
Greater Will just passes down some fundamental laws so things get less fucked, watches for a bit to see if things go well which it seemed to with dragons, trusts those to be followed (leaves its Pager and a watcher behind), and then dips. Might be shocked to see things going wrong again (unless it actually did leave during the shattering in which case it realized it was a bit of a lost cause). It was fine the last time it looked.
I love that the DLC says: "nah the fingers actually havent talked to the Greater Will in forever"
The DLC making it so the Golden Order is a result of an extended game of whispers - based on outdated information and corrupted by Marika's biases and desire for vengeance - of the Greater Will's desires is kinda hilarious in a way
@@dontaejones7419 Count Ymir also reveals that because "we are made of stardust" we are also descendants of and part of the Greater Will. The only difference is that the Elden Beast is to the creatures of The Lands Between what the Sun is to us creatures of Earth. So I think the Greater Will truly is the collective laws of physics and of man. It's very much a Berserk idea in that way. That there is no higher power out there, only the collective will of the people and certain "special" people who acquire enough power to influence the people around them and the world for better or worse.
@@dontaejones7419 Worse than that since Marika had to abandon her flesh & humanity to become a god it more or less just takes over Marika but with her memories forcing order everywhere.
Remember godhood is a prison.
The level of control over her probably varied. Finally fading away as she learned to resist it & shattered when Godwyn dies. Only to realize she became the exact same monster that existed before her as a god. Then shattering the ring.
@@dontaejones7419It’s so real and human that it’s definitely chuckle worthy 😅 😂
,😊
Worm squid with sword and feet.
Feet ? 😏
Squidward?
Never thought about it like that before 🤯
Bacon, toast, hope & Prayer😊
(Suit up, and show up❤❤❤)
With more glitter than a Kesha video from 2010
22:18 "For that to be true, the two fingers would have to either be insane, babbling nonsense-"
It is so interesting watching this after the DLC, as you made so many interesting observations that get directly elaborated on, or answered. Would love to see you make an addendum to this video, discussing the new evidence.
Lol yup. We now know without a doubt that, yes, that is PRECISELY what Two Fingers has been doing.
Please, never feel stupid.
Your videos provide an excellent jumping off point for thoughtful discussion. We learn about our worlds by interacting with them. Mistakes are made, and from them we learn and grow.
I agree 100%
I may not agree with your conclusion or how you interpreted evidence to reach that conclusion, but I've never thought of you or your content as stupid. Your videos (that I've seen) are well thought out and well researched. Sometimes the questions you've asked don't have a definitive answer. FromSoft games are known for providing few definitive answers. You do great work with the material they provide.
Surely a stupid person would never stop to consider, "wait, what if my founding assumptions are all wrong? What happens to the topic if those ideas just aren't true?"
@@Amigo21189 I can't help but RELATE to MINDS like YOURS
Making a choice by no means implies intelligence. Just look at the average voting public.
I prefer this take on ER lore.
To me, it's almost like a biblical tale.... something rich in metaphor and unclear on specific timeframes, or how certain events ACTUALLY happened. But it also has a 'canon' story to it that's more or less implied to be a fully cogent and tangible truth. It's just one that none of the people reading it can ever fully understand. You know only what God wants you to know. What you access from your mortal, sinful place in the universe is but a fraction of what ever was, is, or will be.
Because of that, there are all of these denominations, institutional and intellectual forces in the world... all of them built upon some fundamental presumptions about what the text is communicating to us. Or perhaps what the practical meaning of it is, how to best apply it and move forward with it. In doing so, many presumptions are taken on faith. And a rational framework emerges, one that aims to explain why we suffer and what we must do. But the map is not the territory. And because of that, institutions large enough to run nations have risen and collapsed. I guess their understanding was still incomplete.
One thing I notice, and maybe this is getting too close to the real world but... not only are their separate denominations, but entire different religions taking readings of the text. And they fight constantly over which is right, because nobody knows the full answer. However, it makes sense that people fight over this in the real world - everyone involved believes the fate of our race hinges on us getting it right. That's something I can completely understand as a basic matter of possessing human empathy and rationale. It is the root of so much tragedy, but I do not know how to stop people from being people.
What I can't understand is doing it in a video game world. We can have conflicting reads on text and subtext here and nothing is lost. The truth is, everyone is getting it wrong in the sense that there probably isn't a singular right that is remotely comprehensive enough to bury further questioning. Elden Ring gets a lot more interesting to think and talk about when you stop presuming there is a correct, ultimate explanation and start realizing there are many possible explanations, and that by design of the work, you will never have an understanding of it all that is complete enough to form a singular, absolute truth of it. That's for the creator to think about. The greatest joy of the game's storytelling is that by removing our ability to see the 'canonical' storyline directly, we can essentially pull a near infinite amount of stories from it. Again, it's a lot like the Bible. If ever you think you've figured all of it out, you missed the point... there are things referenced in that book, that aren't meant to be understood by humans in a fully concrete way. It paints you pictures of many things... pieces of truths, the full extent of which are implicitly not comprehensible by mortals. And I think some lore-interpreters for this game mistakenly believe they can mantle a full understanding of divinity by becoming historians.
the absolute roast of the elden beast out of nowhere was insane.
So relatable though, Elden Beast gave me the most trouble on my first play-through too!
@@HopeiThis worst main boss in the game for sure. I definitely love getting one hit on him and then chasing him across the arena for the next 5 minutes.
Shit take @@unclefatback
@@jeambeam3173 ???
@@unclefatbackhe’s just a fan boy pole rider who can’t handle an ounce of criticism towards his favourite game.
The Greater Will(Smith): “keep my COSMIC NATURE OUT YOUR F*CKING MOUTH” 🌌
Wow,......I totally plan to steal.this
The Normal Will hopefully takes inspiration from Marika and shatter that Ring already. Then again, not sure if we want a Shattering Slapping War as follow up
xDDD
Good one
Elden Ring 2, can't wait to play it! 😊
I always liked the separation of the Greater Will and the Golden Order. We need more fantasy stories where Religious institutions are actually mistaken about what their deities want. Elder Scrolls explores some of that too.
Same
man, the entire genre of cosmic horror is about humanity's misunderstanding of an unknowable universe
Literally bloodborne my dude 😂
Literally real life my dude
It’s an excellent parallel to real life.
I really like the idea that The Greater Will is not hands on, and that Marika and Radagon are much more at fault for the wars in the lands between. Just like in real life, all wars are created by the assumption of some greater good by the aggressor, but that greater good is more of an enabler than an active force, regardless of its own sapience or lack thereof.
the greater will existed before marika and the golden order and so did the ring/beast, so i agree with u that marika is responsible for her actions. ofc the greater will through the ring and the power it gives definitely had some influence on her, just like money, power and fame would to a normal human in the real world but that doesn't take away from one's accountability. that being said, i think marika had way more free will and was way more responsible for her actions when she was an empyrean and did all the horrible things that she did cuz it appears that after ascending to godhood her and her other part have distinct roles embedded to them, causality and regression.
The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment.
I always imagined that The Greater Will was physically somewhere in outer space, since the Elden Beast was sent to the lands between in a golden star, and so even if it is enormously powerful, it still has to rely on third parties to enact its will such as the Two Fingers and the Elden Beast.
One theory I always found really interesting is that the Two Fingers have gone rogue, and since they are The Greater Will's only form of communication it has no way of directly interacting with the lands between. Multiple characters mention that the two fingers are no longer working the way they were intended to, they also have their own church outside of the golden order, and when you give Corhyn the assassins prayer book he considers it heresy, despite being from the Two Fingers
@@thomasdevlin5825I feel like the Greater Will doesn't have a physical form, or embodies the cosmos in some way, which not only explains its name, but still explains the need for vassals and representatives
@@Practicallypreposterousit could really go either way. This world doesn't seem to be a place where gods can instantly transport themselves to a new location. In Ranni's ending you undertake a long journey. Vassals and envoys could be needed because the Greater Will is physically located so far away
I have not played Elden Ring. Being able to say "I may be wrong" and looking at new evidence, is a good trait in life. I respect people that can say that. I also enjoy your videos on games that I have played. You provide thought, analysis, and a perspective that I don't have. Thank you for your content.
Yep, he's cool. A lot of "open-minded" youtubers out there blocks you when you even just suggest something against what they say.
As an archaeology student I've always seen fromsoft tory-telling as close as you can get to replicate how a historical investigation would go. Relying too much in just documental evidence will get you so far, there biases, is incomplete and doesn't present the full picture. Thats why I also see value in other elements: diference in architecture, clothing, iconography, real life inspirations, even the burial practises differences tell a story in this game. The scope to understand the lore is so wide and open to interpretation that, in a similar way to real life historial investigaton, is only the work of many people working toghether that this mess can be untangled. that's way things like not fully be able to explain things like what the greater will really is in a single video is not something to be ashamed
Exactly this. Great post.
Really well said!
I'm hoping you've come across the channel of Tarnished Archaeologist lol
@@DanielGarcia-rx3kt I have and I really like his approach, probably personal bias. But it's not perfect representation of how archaeology investigation would go, although is a really good work in that regard
Elden Ring's environmental storytelling is what makes it so special among everything in gaming history, and I'm quite literally tweaking over the fact that very little people find appreciation in it.
The Morgott analysis is gonna go hard
You mean uncle Ruckus?
@r3dh0ll0w8 why does this make so much sense lmao
"morgott is gonna go hard"
@@r3dh0ll0w8glad I’m not the only one who thinks this
I'm glad I found this video because I've been losing this channel but this is the main criticism I was thinking of during the Marika video.
In my opinion it would take many moons for the greater will to even get a status update on how its vassal is doing in the same way the 2 fingers needs so much time to hear the greater will.
'The Fingers must be crazy or deceiving us.'
Ymir's questline be like 'correct'.
Good video, can't wait to see more theories about this now that the DLC has been out for awhile.
even Sir Gideon knew what was up before the dlc
he truly is all knowing
if you don't know what i meant
check the Lord's Divine Fortification description
Turns out two fingers were in fact making shit up lol
Yeah, senile old fingers
I love these videos! One thing that I am unclear on re the Two Fingers: later, when something doesn't go as planned (the thorns preventing access to the Erdtree), the Fingers call the GW, and Enia implies that it might take years. This makes it sound like the Fingers don't actually know if the GW is pleased with us specifically, and we don't even know how long it has been since they've actually spoken, and it might just be the case that we are fulfilling whatever the Fingers understand the GW's standing orders to be. It feels like that was supposed to be a reveal that hey, no, there's nobody actually there driving the bus; this could also help explain why the GW needs vassals at all. It's just an interesting thing to consider.
I absolutely agree with the idea that we are supposed to read the GW as sentient- even if it is, in fact, not- personifying concepts themselves is a fromsoft trope at this point.
That's the fun fact. They probably fully believe that this is what the GW wants and they think to know that she's pleased and she bless our mission. A very good plot point, the wise and superior Fingers don't know nothing after all.
They probably only get a few transmissions every other millennia
And the rest is interpretation
In a society ruled by order that's enough because there won't be anything changing, because why would it? Why fix something if it is (presumably) already well oiled?
And there it is, a system that worked
But oh no here comes the shattering.
A fast changing of times, too fast for the two fingers and the greater will
And thus the two fingers as the "next in line" made the decisions and credited the greater will
Marika came up with this plan back when she stripped Godfrey and the other Tarnished of their grace. I think Marika had planned for Radagon's unwillingness to be deposed or how much power she had given him. Imo the GW didn't really care until the disorder and chaos overtook the land.
Since the Two Fingers communicate using light, I think the amount of time it will take to get a response is supposed to show how far away the GW is from the Lands Between. I believe the TF we interact with in the Roundtable Hold are Marika's TF specifically, and they're trying to maintain the status quo with her in power and the Erdtree intact.
That happens because the Two Fingers were fooled by Marika. This whole time the TF assumed it was the Greater Will who gave grace back to the Tarnished, so they could restore the Elden Ring and become Elden Lord. So, why would the Erdtree block the path for them if the Greater Will is the one who wanted the Tarnished to brandish the Elden Ring? That does not make sense, right?
That´s because it wasn´t the Greater Will who gave the Tarnished their grace back. It was Marika all along. It´s Marika who wants us to brandish the Elden Ring, burn the Erdtree and create a new Order.
When the TF know that the Erdtree is blocked and the only way in is burning it down, they panick and desperetly try to communicate with the Greater Will.... but it seems they can´t anymore. Becasue the Greater Will abandoned The Lands Between a long time ago. And the only ones who protect what´s left of their precious Golden Order are Morgott and Radagon.
@@pantonpg "Kono Marika Da!"
I'm not sure she's doing this fully concious of herself or even if there is One herself right now, but yeah, she was the one behind the return of the tarnished, not the GW.
In Regards to the Greater Will giving Marika/Radagon the "tools" to make the Golden Order, I think something important to remember is that going off the concept that the Greater will is the embodiment of order, It probably gave those tools to make any type of society because it doesn’t really care as long as order exists in some form. additionally, that could also be why it was so angered or displeased with the shattering war, as a Chaotic event such as that is in direct opposition to its fundamental principles.
A society of bug eaters would be acceptable so long as it's orderly
@@knightsblight enforced by the Davos Beast, lmao
We know of at least one society that preceded Marika's yet had the Elden Ring: dragons, and their Elden Lord Placidusax.
It didn't care about the war. It was fine with all the previous wars and génócìdés committed in its name. It was only mad because its puppet Marika stopped allowing herself to be its toy.
@@altermirror4063 It's unclear if Placidudax's god was connected to the Great Will, though. Given the faint remnants of gold on his scales it could be the case, but he could also have become gold because of his association with Godwyn.
Super important what you said about believing the Narrator (i.e the item descriptions)! People get downright paranoid about not trusting what's in front of them in this game sometimes, and some foundation is necessary. After all, what's the point of trying to figure out the lore if you don't believe in anything?
I think it's super healthy to always take definitive statements in item descriptions at face value - if a description wants us to be uncertain, it will use uncertain language.
There is definitely a contrarian bent to a lot of people's interpretations that just leads to them inventing nonsense basically from whole-cloth to justify why everything we read *must* be a lie.
Except every description that involves Radagon and Marika literally lies to you lmao.
Examples? Since I don't remember items that say they are seperate. I only remember dialouge that says that, which comes from people that don't know the full context. So it would be nice if you could remind me.@@dgalloway107
@@dgalloway107 Where exactly? Because I can't remember a single item that does lie to the player about Radagon and Marika. It never mentions that Radagon = Marika because it's never relevant to said item.
That’s kind of what this video feels like too
I think your first point tells us more than you say. The 3 fingers state that the greater will made a mistake. For something to be a mistake it needs more than to be bad or in error. There needs to be intention and specifically that intention needs to be failed. From that alone we know that the greater will must be intelligent and aware. At least enough to make mistakes in the first place. 2 asteroids colliding isn't a mistake it's just an event a mistake would be trying to land on an astroid and crashing into it instead. Both might result in the destruction of colliding objects but that is only a mistake if you care about whether or not the objects are destroyed. An unthinking uncaring thing cannot make nor recognize mistakes.
Presuming we trust the 3 fingers anyway
The best part? It's only fingers that have a better grasp what the truth is, it just has a messed up solution which could be as wrong as that of the two fingers
not necessarily true, someone like the 3 fingers and the chaos can say life is a mistake, that doesn't mean life was made by someone or with intentions. i can definitely see someone with a nihilistic perspective say that. i personally don't know if the greater will is sentient or not but one would assume that in a high fantasy setting like this with space gods and all that it would xD i highly doubt though that the greater will gives a fuck other than having a sort of order imposed.
@@metalface_villain "not necessarily true, someone like the 3 fingers and the chaos can say life is a mistake, that doesn't mean life was made by someone or with intentions."
But the fact that it's called a "mistake" by the 3 fingers implies the 3 fingers are intelligent, and therefore the two fingers and the greater will probably are, as well.
@@metalface_villain Yep, is fully a Nihilist vision in the worst way. "Life is pain so burn everything." Quite funny after what Shabriri did to the merchants. Also, yeah, GW don't give a total sh*t about what is the order. Malenia, AFTER the Rot, was chosen as an Empyrean, and even with a chance of a Rot Goddess with the Elden Ring, GW did nothing.
Also, after burning the Erdtree, the Two Fingers make a specific pose, and the Finger Reader tells you it's communicating with the Greater Will. If we take the Finger Reader's word for it, an attempt to communicate implies a belief in the possibility of a response, which suggests an intellect or at least sentience.
What I find interesting about the Elden Beast. Notice the big scar on its belly ? There's a theory that since the beast came with the Elden Ring it's somewhat linked to it and so when trying to fracture it the Beast retaliate because it was getting smashed. There's also an attack of the elden beast that crucifies you to a rune and pierces you with dozens of spears so it makes sense if the Beast punished Marika even if it wasnt from a direct order and more from an act of self defense
the elden ring is the elden beast, the scar on it's belly is because of the fracture of the ring. the ring ofc is inside marika/radagon, that's why when ragagon loses the beast comes out to fight us. i think the beast through radagon is indeed responsible for crucifying marika. i think marika wanted a new order and a new lord to change the current order but radagon wants things to go back to what they used to be, that's why he attacks us to take our shards and do exactly that. we know marika shattered the ring because of godwyn but i don't know for sure why she wants a new order and what shape she wants it to take.
@Lee-km7qqno. it’s stated the elden beast is the elden ring so the wound is from marika shattering the elden ring
@Lee-km7qq Marika is the vessel of the Elden Ring, that also is the Elden Beast, but there is something more. The connection between the vessel and the Elden Ring is not just the same between a cup and the tea, because we can see Marika's/Radagon's body shattering when she smashed the Elden Ring (The story trailer). So you can say is a being shattering itself and then be punished by itself while the other itself is trying to fix itself. Mr.Miyazaki, even less please.
They're one and the same. I thought the scar was from the ring being taken from its body long ago, much like Marika became the literal vessel for it later.
@@themaniae4803 I'm still confused about that. There's evidence that Radagon was once an independent being, and he merged with Marika due to her kind able to "melt with flesh harmoniously". But why? What on earth does Radagon get out of literally becoming one with Marika?
In the DLC we have learned that mother of fingers was abandoned by the greater will a long time ago, therefore two fingers were only pretending to be it's messengers :
That's not how I perceived it. It's not pretending, it genuinely thinks it's still getting info directly from GW. It doesn't know that it's getting the info from its mother, Metyr, who is aware GW is gone and yet continues to act as its envoy, making it up as she goes based on what she *_thinks_* is what GW wants.
I’m sure someone has mentioned it already, but the remembrance for the optional DLC boss, Metyr, and the descriptions of the items you get from it adds so much to this topic
I wish we knew more about her. She's the first envoy of GW, and the mother of Two Fingers, but then where did Three Fingers come from? And where did GW go? It abandoned Metyr and the lands between, but why?
I think an interesting detail about the Mending Runes is that the source of all three of them are Tarnished: People who have, either directly or indirectly, been removed from the Golden Order, but called upon when things have gotten dire. People who are bringing new ideas to a flawed Order, from their experiences of having to live outside of it.
I'm deeply curious as to whether Miquella will be bringing his own, new ending to Elden Ring with the DLC, and what shape that'll take. From what little we know about him, he seems at this point in his life to be fairly dismissive of the Golden Order. It couldn't cure his sister, he's sheltering a bunch of things viewed as malign by the Order in his treehouse, that he was specifically building as a new, alternative tree to the Erdtree, and he's fully divested himself of the body and Grace he was entitled to by birth, in pursuit of something in the Lands of Shadow, which from descriptions seems to be a sort of... oubliette that Marika and/or the Golden Order used for things they didn't want around. Very curious indeed.
*SPOILERS FOR DLC*
He was trying to get a different age of compassion to the age of order, and you stop him. So in a sense yes he is trying to make a new ending, but you cut it off in favor of your own ending as Elden lord.
There are no new endings, unfortunately. The entire DLC is a glorified side quest.
@@T3AR_HD I think it's kinda funny how this one person keeps going around merking gods left and right.
@@WobblesandBean "Make a world not for gods, but for all men."
I think it's worth noting that not only do Gold Mask and Mikela but also Marika herself are talked about as researching the Golden Order in order to understand it better. If Marika made up the Golden order from whole cloth why would she need to research it? Why is it implied all three of these characters found something that dismayed them once they found it?
Here's to hoping we get more answers in the DLC
Humans in real world invent politics and laws, but still study them.
Maybe Marika tries to fix her mistakes by objective analysis.
Turns out the two fingers might be communicating with Metyr who was the one who once communicated directly with the Greater Will but has not received a message in a long time.
No "might be", that's exactly what is going on. Two Fingers isn't aware that his mom is totally making it up.
I haven't seen the Jap translations yet to know for sure. That makes it less certain than things we know for sure; like Ranni being a piece of shit.
Item descriptions often provide context for where their information comes from, for example, in the elden stars description is starts by saying "It is said that..." Meaning this information is information passed down and not objective fact. I generally assume unless there's a preface or qualifier like this in the description, that the item descriptions are objectively true and that's how I personally make the distinction between objective and subject info within item descriptions
I agree wholeheartedly. I was thinking during the video that knowing that the Elden Beast is only thought by the people of the Lands Between to be consciously sent by the Greater Will is still good information. It potentially not being true doesn’t diminish its value since we are learning about common beliefs of the people there and that informs how we in turn interpret their thoughts and actions.
i think the greater will is dualistic in nature, much like many other characters in the story. grace/order are but one half of the nature of the greater will, while chaos/frenzy is the other half of this same force. this force is not bifurcated in some long forgot conflict, but rather the connection between the two have been perceptually obscured for the denizens of the lands between.
Reverse Sheogorath
@@BiteTheHookwho shegorath
@@mauricegreen5321Cheese eating monkey
Considering that the frenzy flame is yellow, I don't think this is all that far off. To a greater extent, I genuinely feel as though many aspects of reality that don't fit into the world under the Golden Order could have been removed like the Rune of Death, turning into the outer gods without anything to influence. After all, once the rune of death is finally able to affect the world again after taking Godwyn's body as its shell and it starts to reshape the world in its image just like the rot infecting Caelid and the Haligtree, or the way that Frenzy and the formless mother seemingly alter the people they influence Trememdous facts about reality that hurt, that you don't want to have to acknowledge, but none the less very real and very important. Things get strange if you cut them out, and if they remain seperate then horrible things happen when they make their own independent contact with the world again.
@@mauricegreen5321 Sheogorath is a character in the Elder Scrolls universe and is known as the god of madness and insanity.
The "all things yearn to converge" line is actually a mistranslation for "all things yearn to fall into place". So your theory makes sense
It's ironic how the Greater Will never directly communicated with literally anyone, not Marika or even its own daughter, Metyr. The fingers were busy consulting something that was beyond the microcosm and communication was never directly established. The spear that pierces Marika imprisoned her within the Erdtree, and made it so none could enter the Erdtree was all Radagon's doing in his illustrious attempt to mend the Elden Ring and restore the Golden Order. All those wars and genocide and sealing away Destined Death? That was Marika establishing her vision of a world without suffering and what she had to do in order to achieve something like that.
It was also partly Marika taking out her pain and sorrow on those who hurt her in the past
Honestly it's good to get a fresh perspective on the lore of elden ring coming from more of a meta-physics angle rather than pure in-game lore. You've brought up ideas that even other lore-tubers have yet to bring up that make a lot of sense (IE the Greater Will as an Eldritch being of pure order, being repelled by the discord in the Lands Between).
It is very likely that Marika discovered something that changed her mind on obedience to the Greater Will. There's a bonfire in game where Melina relates Marika declaring her intent to study the Greater Will much closer and sometime after that, she does an almost complete 180 in terms of her own Golden Order from trying to build it up, crush all competitors and make it as strong as possible, to actively betraying it and trying to tear it down.
She essentially allows Ranni to steal a piece of destined death and kill Godwyn the Golden. She banishes Godfrey the first Elden Lord and master of the tarnished and basically tells them to become really strong and come back some day emboldened with the flame of ambition. She sends Melina out to find the "chosen" tarnished to assist in this. She IS Radagon, so her then denying the tarnished entry into the Erdtree forcing them to burn it could be another effort to basically destroy the own order she created and, of course, she herself shatters the Elden Ring.
What she learned is not completely clear, but the change in behavior could not be more clear. She goes from one extreme to the polar opposite extreme. From doing everything possible to ensure the Golden Order's primacy and superiority over all other factions or ideologies to wanting to the exact opposite of subverting it however she can. After whatever she learned she then devotes all of her efforts to tear down what she had spent her entire life creating, even at the cost of basically the lives of all of her offspring (save perhaps Ranni and/or Miquella?) and her own life as well.
I think it is likely that her study of the Greater Will turned up something that disgusted her or some way that she herself had been deceived and/or lied to. I suspect that the Erdtree is a parasite, feeding on everything that returns to it in order to make the Greater Will ever stronger. It is beautiful...and feeding on the entire world over the centuries.
I’m not sure what she discovered but she clearly came to some conclusion. But you are wrong in one respect (in my view anyways for what that counts) radagon and marika are the same person but Radagon is the half that wishes to save the current order marika is the one who broke it that’s why she is impaled and crucified while radagon can whip the hammer out and go bonk bonk
But then we must also ask ourselves what if she discovered nothing? What if she found the Elden beast and order and all of it have no real will or purpose and all of the blasphemy she committed in the past was all for not? What if that’s what shadow of the Erdtree will shed light on? What if that’s why miqeulla is doing what he’s doing?
This is why I love and hate Elden ring we have a ring of possible and answers but no concrete center, no anchoring rune we can know anything from all we know is that radagon and marika are one and the only philosopher who would know more is wiggling his fam finger at the sky while his apprentice cries in a corner
Parasite theory was always my favorite interpretation of the Erdtree. Isn't their lore about souls who die get absorbed into the Erdtree?
Not to mention in the final boss arena, we see tons of Erdtrees in the distance, implying that the Greater Will has more of them in other realms, sending them out like probes.
Another cool interpretation IMO is that we the player are the Greater Will, the two fingers being metaphorical for the fingers we use to manipulate the controller and thus the Tarnished. It makes sense, our will is the only one that matters in this world.
The gold imo is kind of like the one ring from Tolkien. It corrupts and consumes anyone who tries to take it over for power. Just look at Marika at the end of the game. It’s just an empty shell. That’s no longer whoever the real Marika was. It’s just like how sorcerers get consumed who try to study the primal current of Star magic. Everyone in this game tries to use something to gain power and they pay the price for it.
I think of the parasitic interpretation to be the one that makes the most sense for me. Power parasite and corrupts and do everything it can to grow stronger and stay alive for as long as possible through whatever means, even it that means being flexible and betraying itself, like it did with the "heretics from the Carian family".
If order cannot prevail trough strength, it will redefine itself to prevail through laws. This is what a lifeform looking to survive anything will do : adapt in whatever way it can to overcome any threats. And what better thing to do for a parasite that is just looking to feed from as many worlds as possible ?
Radagon and Marika are not the same person. They share a body, yes, but clearly have different motivations and personalities. The most clear example of this is Marika trying to shatter the Elden Ring while Radagon was the one trying to repair it, according to the description of Marika's Hammer.
The Tarnished's return and slaying of the Elden Beast was always what Marika wanted, seeing as how she sent Godfrey away on purpose, and wanted her demigod children to claim their places as gods, lords, what have you. It would make no sense for her to block off the Erdtree, especially when Melina is almost certainly her daughter, and Melina herself was created for the purpose of getting into the Erdtree.
Radagon, on the other hand, has been described by Queen Marika herself as a "leal hound of the Golden Order," meaning that she views him as more or less a fanatical dog. His title ingame isn't "Radagon, Second Elden Lord," it's "Radagon of the Golden Order." We never see any sign of Marika developing Golden Order fundamentalist incantations, but we know Radagon personally developed the spell Radagon's Rings of Light as a gift to his son Miquella.
In other words, Radagon is consistently characterized as someone whose very identity revolves around the Golden Order. A loyal and dogmatic servant who is even considered a fundamentalist of the Order. It makes perfect sense for someone like Radagon to seal off the Erdtree, because anyone looking to mend the Elden Ring would likely destroy the current form of the Golden Order and create a new one. He doesn't want the world to change - he wants the world to remain stagnant and dead, as long as the Golden Order in its current form is preserved.
It should be taken into account that there is a distinct possibility that there is no Greater Will at all. It could be that everything that has happened that was attributed to the Greater Will is nothing more than happenstance, and that the "Greater Will" is equivalent to Divine Providence in the sense that it is an established cause of events that the majority of people in the Lands Between believe is a thing that can cause things to happen.
The Greater Will's abandonment of the Lands Between is just another way of saying 'things suck now, nobody wants to take responsibility for it, so it must be because the Greater Will abandoned us'. There never was a Greater Will present; The land was simply in a Golden Age of prosperity and it was easy to believe it was because a higher power was responsible for all the good things happening.
Hands manipulate, that is their physical function in our anatomy. So, the Fingers are manipulators, and I think they are largely responsible for the state of things, perpetuating belief in a thing that does not even actually exist. Combine that with the selfish ambitions of a bunch of bickering demigods and you get the world as it is.
All of the so-called Outer Gods could very well be nothing more than natural forces in this universe that individuals learn how to harness and utilize, then start attributing their own biases onto those forces of nature and develop cults around them.
This is my reading as well. It makes me think WAAY back to when Elden Ring was first announced and I read a blurb describing the game along the lines of "the Ambition of humanity".
Don’t bring your atheism into fantasy games pls
I think there is an important linguistic point that has been overlooked in this debate.
A will is by definition personal. If the Greater Will is impersonal, then it is by definition not a will.
Can we chalk that up to mistranslation or flowery wording? Cause that seems to be the case here if the Greater Will is indeed non sentient
It can also be a very primitive drive or desire. I believe there can be an unconscious or subconscious "will" that a conscious being can discovery, but "will" might not be the best word to describe that. It's definitley mysterious or imperceptibly great or possibly unknowable.
@@allenandrews2380 So an animal essentially. Similar to an insect.
@@allenandrews2380 A subconscious in the psychological sense also still implies personhood.
@@pillarmenn1936 In Japanese the word used for "Will" is "意志", which can mean will, intent, and determination. It's never used for things that aren't sentient as far as I can see. So no, as far as Japanese is concerned: the Greater Will IS sentient.
In fact, we see plenty of examples in the game of the Greater Will spying on people (Iji's helm), controlling people (Blaidd, Ranni), making choices (abandoning the Demigods to instead call the Tarnished), etc. It's very difficult to argue that it's not sentient imo.
I love how the DLC changes the nature of the Fingers drastically... but you still hit it on the head at 22:20
I feel like the introduction of Metyr and the revelations that follow point more towards a universal force sort of Greater Will
No Glazing but love your content bro. just made something and was looking for something to watch to lol.
It’s not glazing when this man makes genuinely good content
@@Swampboiii This is true
Feedback is always good
Don't confuse it with destructive criticism
You make good compelling arguments with the knowledge you have
Love your videos keep doing what your doing
Even the name implies intelligence. It is a "will", not a "Greater Power or Greater Force".
Just look the idea of evil in Berzerk, if it has a "will" it can desire.
You don't have to call them "Stupid Mistakes". These explorations are amazing and helps us all suss out whats going on (even if we aren't 100% correct).
One thing to consider: Marika is *not* an agent of Order. She has nothing to do with the Golden Order at all. She, in fact, has rebelled against the influence of the GW since day 1. Radagon, OTOH, is the architect and creator of The Golden Order. He implemented it by force, after the Greater Will made him Consort to Queen Marika. Looking at its design, the Golden Order is this mesh latticework that appears almost like a cage or fence. This is to represent the dogmatism and the rigidity that defines the Golden Order. And when Golden Order Fundamentalism wasn't enough to stop The Shattering, he would seal Marika inside of the Erdtree (Golden Order magic is seen bolstering the brambles when we approach before its burned), and then attempt to repair the Elden Ring with what remained in her broken body.
what? where are u getting your sources for this?
Hmmm... Since day 1! Seems unlikely given the fact that she became its champion, killing and conquering for the sake of the promised Order. Somewhere down the line though a disagreement grew, the inner conflict of which birth two separate sides of Marika, one seeking too further the growth & agenda of the Order, the other being Marika herself who defy's the GW; hence becoming a fell God. I agree with everything else, good analysis.
The most remarkable thing to me though, is how 1 became 2? & was it in part this weird incest why Malenia & Miquella came out with issues?
@@painsuzerain6087 well some of the sources are spoilers for the DLC so im gonna hold off on spoiling those.
Radagon being the architect of the golden order is in his name: Radagon of the Golden Order, as well as his school of Golden Order Fundamentalism (fundamental meaning foundational).
Further, the symbol of the Golden Order is the hatchmark golden symbol, which also featured on statues of Radagon, as well as is containing the Elden Ring during the final fight with Radagon (and even empowering the Brambles at the Erdtree.)
Another interpretation is that perhaps Marika *created* the Golden Order, but Radagon was such a GW bootlicker and Order obsessed (again he created the fundamentalist study here), that when Marika spurned the Golden Order, he was there to champion it in her stead, ad he embodied the Order so fully that it was as if he *was* the order.
Radagon created Golden Order Fundamentalism but the actual Golden Order was created by Marika. Its founding principle is that she is the one true god.
Radagon wasn't the first consort of Marika, so this is unlikely.
While we can alter the ER by adding a mending rune to it, it's not clear that an Elden Lord is even supposed to do that.
The Fingers want us to just go to Marika with the Shards and become her consort, like in the the Age of Fracture ending.
In the other enings, yeah we can modify the ER, but Marika, by that time is pretty much just a dead vessel, so there is no one to stop us.
In Rannis ending it is her, Marika's successor the one who takes the ER and we don't even touch it.
Melina at the Erdtree Church is able to recount Marika's words about her wanting to understand and search the depths of the Golden Order. "Through understanding of the proper way, our faith, our grace, is increased.". It sounds like she expected this understanig to be a prosperous thing for them. She doesn't sound like someone who is against anything at this point.
Here's a couple of important questions to consider when contemplating the nature of the Greater Will
1. In a scenario where the player defeats Radagon but then dies to the Elden Beast, what would happen next? Would the Elden Beast repair the seal on the Erdtree? Would it return to Radagon and wait for the next challenger? Would it leave the Erdtree and try to return to the Greater Will, or perhaps just rampage until someone defeated it?
2. How far does the scope of the Elden Ring's influence extend? We know it extends across The Lands Between, but we also know other lands exist in this world, like the Land of Reeds or the places across the sea that Marika sent Godfrey and his men. If the rules defined by the Elden Ring govern the natural order of things across the world, and the Shattering War happened centuries ago, then why has no outside nation attempted to take advantage of the civil war stalemate and seize the Elden Ring for themselves? (Keep in mind, the truth about needing to burn the thorns to enter the Erdtree didn't become public knowledge until the player attempts to enter the Erdtree with two Great Runes, so no foreign nation would be aware that only someone with Grace could claim the Elden Ring). Sure, the reputations of the demigods could have scared many of them off, but over that much time, it's hard to believe that no foreign power would try to launch an assault on The Lands Between, or even offer an alliance and military support to one of the demigods to help them win the war.
Well, as for the first one, I would imagine it would simply take the repair rune the player character has and fixed the elden ring. After that, who knows.
Reacting early @2:10 and I've got two thoughts: first, the name, "The Greater Will," implies, well, a will, an entity with wants and goals and some sort of thought, even if it's not in a form we well recognize/understand. It's plausible that that's a misunderstanding on the part of mortals, but that just leads me into point two: Marika can be responsible for shaping the Golden Order but also not be a petulant child in breaking it. She can have either grown to think better of/regret her past choices, or have been fully convinced that she wasn't the one making those decisions and believe herself to be rejecting a higher power, not realizing that that was always in her own power. Either way, she actually still paints the picture of someone who has come to reject their past as mistaken and misguided and seeking to redress those crimes as she is able.
I look forward to seeing what information on the Golden Order the DLC gives us. I get the feeling Miquella has some pretty damning information on the religion considering the lengths he's gone to to distance himself from it and gain access to the place that Marika is (supposedly) from. Messmer being excluded from the original pantheon of demi-gods despite clearly being a child of Marika himself will also be interesting.
Regarding who punished Marika:
The elden beast has a grab attack in which the player is held aloft on a rune (exactly like Marika) and pierced by innumerable golden light spikes.
Still not clear on the red spear but it's something 🤷🏻♂️
The separation of Marika and Radagon is the most crucial point to understand what the Greater Will is I think.
So we have Marika, who becomes the "vessel" of the Greater Will and uses the Elden Ring to create her personnal vision of order (since she takes the rune of death out of it and locks it away). She then charges Maliketh to look after the rune of death and punishes him with a monstruous fate when he fails to protect it, kinda showing us she doesn't really give a fuck about her "shadow" given to her by the Greater Will / Two fingers.
Since the Elden Ring was supposedly sent to the world by the Greater Will, it is safe to assume that the original state of the Elden Ring was the one the Greater Will wished it was used in. Thus, Marika taking out some parts of it seems to already be suspicious and probably the start of her rebellion.
But, since the Greater Will has no one else "compatible enough" to carry out his bidings, he basically lets it slide for a while seeing that Marika's Golden Order is actually bringing a form of order and stability to the world. Marika creates the Erdtree out of the crucible and marries Godfrey, gets him to kill the giants, killing two birds with one stone by bending the crucible to her order and eliminating her fiercest competition. At one point during or after that, the Greater Will nerfs Godfrey by slapping a shadow on his shoulder just to be safe until he and his army are of no use to her anymore. The next step of going "whoops! No grace? Too bad, guess you will have to exile with your most loyal soldiers and leave me to rule... alone... See ya!" is only logical at that point. I would say it was probably also motivated by the fact that 2 thirds of the children from this marriage were sporting proof of the Crucible's influence, which is a big no-no if the goal is for the Erdtree to be the new symbol of the order. Lock the deformed children and send the father with defective DNA away, problem solved.
Other things happen, persecussions, fuck ups and genocides aplenty, all in the name of the Golden Order, until the whole unification conquests come to a grinding halt while facing Raya Lucaria and the Carian Nobles. That's when the Greater Will probably goes "You know what, I think it's time I intervene because you are not doing too well right now". Thus, in similar fashion as the Rot with Malenia (since Malenia does everything she can to go against the Rot in an unwinable battle for the control of her body), the Greater Will basically hijacks Marika's body and shapes it to become Radagon and go conquer Raya Lucaria through the same type of diplomacy Marika used with Godfrey.
We now have a Greater Will controled Radagon seducing Rennala, ending a never ending war and recruiting their forces. Making another batch of children in the process, this time all of them being actually pure of the influence of the Crucible, absolute win all around. And then, since the Greater Will doesn't understand how humans work except the whole "make them fuck to create other humans just in case", he thinks it's a good idea to make Radagon go back to Leyndell and see if he cannot make even better children by somehow using both Marika and Radagon at the same time.
This backfires HEAVILY since Renalla loses her mind, her children see this and, since it is proven they are a tight-knit kind of family and you can clearly see in game that Ranni cares about her mother, it plants the seeds of rebellion into Ranni's mind. Meanwhile, the Greater Will, having not clue what the risks of incest are, manages to create of pair of Empyrean by making a god fucking itself. Great success!!! Except that Empyreans are apparently beacons for outer gods to posess since the Rot snatches Malenia at spawn and Miquella doesn't go past infancy stage. Fuck... There is also Melina but I think it's more like a shard of Marika or something more than a real child.
But, anyway, everything is going great! Both the position of God and Elden Lord are occupied by the same person, the Greater Will has a "Radagon body snatcher" button in case Marika ever fucks up again and he has replacements "just in case, even if the are kind of fucked up but they will do. But, wait, what is the daughter from the brutally divorced librarian doing? AH FUCK!
Here comes Ranni, who says "fuck this shit and fuck the Greater Will in particular" and commits a 50/50 suicide with unwilling participant Godwyn, first child of Marika, all around good boy and the only one who wasn't either sick, completely depraved, a reminder of the crucible or litterally stopping the stars just because he liked his horse so much. Not only does that shit SEVERELY undermines the Golden Order power, it also and most importantly affects Marika A LOT, who takes control of her body long enough to break the Elden Ring in a final act of defiance towards the Greater Will. Unhappy outer god punishes Marika so she is tortured while he has no use of Radagon, and the whole plan becomes an absolute shit-show.
And we arrive at what the three fingers said "The Greater Will made a mistake". That mistake was Marika. Marika who, from day one, took an important part out of the Elden Ring. Marika who told Maliketh to sit down and munch on death root after his mistake and so without remlrse. Marika who married a barbarian who followed the Crucible that the Greater Will had to restrain before sending him away. Marika who struggled to conquer Raya Lucaria, forcing the Greater Will to intervene and create Radagon. Marika who, seeing her oldest and most perfect son die (which is the worst case scenario that wasn't supposed to ever happen) by the hands of another child she probably had against her will or at the very least while not being in control of her own body, finally loses the last of her marbles and shatter the Elden Ring.
Well, not necesarilly Marika but the idea that the Greater Will could just order humans around, even taking control of their bodies when things didn't go fast enough for it's taste, without expecting any deviation or repercussions from his plan. The mistake of the Greater Will was expecting perfect order from flawed individuals. It's not that the Greater Will doesn't think or doesn't care. It's just that he does not understand how humans work. Perfect Order can never hope to understand Chaos.
I'm still unsure if the recall of the tarnished is from the Greater Will or Marika herself. Would be a nice last middle finger to the outer god to basically call back your ex-husband who was so strong and popular that you had to handicap him by fear of what he could do.
Dont feel bad brett! Elden ring is hugely about interpretation and bringing ideas to the table and talking about stuff is what the souls-kiro-bourne-ring community is all about!
Yours are among my favorite lore videos to watch and i think your community appreciates the honesty to address areas you missed or misunderstood.
Keep at it man🤙
I think Goldmask's Mending Rune gives solid evidence that a lot of the BS happening is simply due to Marika and other gods:
"The current imperfection of the Golden Order, or instability of ideology, can be blamed upon the fickleness of the gods no better than men. That is the fly in the ointment."
So all the mistreatment of Omen, the in-fighting, "blasphemous" things, etc. can pretty much be blamed on the representatives of the Golden Order and not the Greater Will itself. I think its only influence is the Elden Beast and whatever force allows it into people's heads.
Yet goldmask's ending keeps the shape of the order that persecutes the omen and undead,
I disagree with this reading bcs the treatment of the omen is exactly the kind of flaw goldmask is attempting to remove by removing the interference of fickle gods such as Marika
Goldmask really just fixed everything unbelievably easily
@@dgalloway107No it doesn’t? It Perfects the order.
I think you've overlooked a key detail. The Tranished's guidance and immortality. These come from the Greater Will. And no matter what ending you choose, it never revokes these. It has revoked it for many others, but never you.
Another lesser detail I think you should reconsider is Dungeater and Goldmask. Despite how vastly different they are, their heraldry is shockingly similar. A Sun. A great light inspired both men onto their paths to creating their mendings runes. They weren't just random Tarnished. Something directed them both.
We now know that the Greater Will is gone. Metyr, Two Fingers, and the Elden Beast are acting independently, thinking they're acting on behalf of GW but in reality are just making it up, blindly going off of what they *_think_* GW wants.
Considering the cosmic nature of the Greater Will, I'm not sure if we can know what its true nature is. The people in the Lands Between and even the two fingers think they know, but we see that the Two Fingers seem to be making stuff up as they go and when they aren't sure what they do anymore they panic and try to communicate which will take an unknowable amount of time. We can either guess that it just really takes a long time to communicate with the GW, that the GW has actually abandoned the Lands Between and that the Two Fingers just don't want to believe it, or that the Two Fingers are buying time to figure out what to do next. I'm not sure what exactly they're doing, and I'm not sure we can know for sure, but I do think that it adds to the cosmic mystery of the GW. People want to say they understand the GW, but I'm not sure anyone in the Lands Between can truly understand it. Maybe getting close to understanding it is what led Marika to shatter the Elden Ring like she did. To me it seems that the developers do want us to believe that the GW is a being that we can understand, but then when we learn about the Elden Beast and see what it is, we have to question that notion, what on earth kind of being could create the beast and send it here, is it something that we can ever truly understand?
FatBrett out here saving me from workday boredom 🔥🔥🔥
So, there's a concept that exists in cosmic horror that few people really delve into because it's hard to wrap your head around.
Cosmic forces could just 'intersect' with reality, without necessarily fully noticing that it's doing so. If the Greater Will is a sentient and engaged entity, it could just be a screaming cosmic mind that only really influences the world in passing. It COULD be communicated with, but only in so much as you can interface with a computer. The Elden Ring itself is the physical representation of the laws of reality, so perhaps the Greater Will is the 'console' that is used by any given being to alter, interact with, or in Merika's case damage, parts of how conceptual reality functions.
I sometimes wonder if people have been misinterpreting that description on the Elden Stars thing. Was it the Elden Beast that became the Elden Ring, or was it the golden star that bore it? Because when we see the Elden Beast, it’s definitely not the Elden Ring. The Ring was right there inside Marika/Radagon, and the Beast grabbed it up along with their corpse to make that sword. Wouldn’t it make more sense for the star to have become the Ring?
FatBrett! Forget not that you enter the Elden Ring fandom and community showcasing your singular perspective, your impression of the game. And thag the reason so many “smart” people are quick and wanting to add their own understanding, is that they’ve had *two years* thus far of comparing and contrasting their own beliefs with everyone else who has made videos! There have been countless minute discoveries and connections that shape the whole of certain characters, things that are impossible for one person alone to find and understand completely!
I also find that taking all descriptions including “it is said” to be true is generally good for appreciation of Elden Ring’s story. The moment you start to pick and choose reduces the impact and authenticity of *all* beautiful little stories about the world, like Lansseax having a human form, the legend of the Blue Dancer, the fundamental nature of Destined Death, and so on. For me, personally, it’s easier to appreciate the whole when you reconcile *all* those implied connections to fill in the context of the Lands Between’s history.
I really liked your thorough explanation of the Greater Will as it appears narratively! Keep up the good work!
I'm totally digging this Elden Ring kick you on. They're making me not mind the wait for the Final Fantasy video instead of agonizing over it.
As long as there is order that's what the greater will likes. Actually, this has been a common sentiment in the lore community for sometime if I recall....
My thoughts about the three fingers is that they are the most honest out of all, what we know is that they communicate via their fingerprints, they can't change those and they are pretty much repeating themselves all the time and well they go straight to the point, Burn everything with the yellow Chaos Flame, the only other one is hayetta who tells us what their fingerprints say, in order to communicate with the two fingers the message has to go through the two finger themselves since they share what they greater will says and from what we saw they aren't actually communicating at the moment or since who knows when they haven't talked and the the message has to come through another individual that being the finger reader.
In theories, I like to believe that, mistakes are not mistakes, but new ideas. I love your previous video on this topic. I love your idea of true nature of things. It also help me see things differently and made me much more acceptance to daily human interactions.
My man. This is gonna need a revisit with the new Metyr lore.
I watch this channel since I was in highschool. I love your depth and thoroughness you do with these analyses
As a friend of mine likes to say, "Your not stupid, you're ignorant, You can't cure stupid." The fact that you willingly express frustrations about messing up, and that you're willing to go back and look at things from another angle to get what you feel is a better answer for us proves that you aren't stupid.
the dlc reveal that the mother of fingers was long broken really fights against the chapter of the Two Fingers
"[The Two Fingers must be insane or manipulative.]"
insane. absolutely insane
Everything that happened in the story is suspect now because.
Spoilers:
The greater will hasn't communicated once with the mother or any of it's children including the two fingers.
About the mistake the three fingers are talking about : The mistake is the gift of life.
Elden Ring's origin, according to the 3 finger's dialogue, seems to be pretty akin to the lord of Dark Souls (which is partially why I believe that what is being told here is NOT a lie) : The world was gray and unchanging and uniform, with neither life nor death, nor anything, really.
The gift of life, that came from the fracture (from the Fire, in Dark Souls), created all those variances : life and death, order and chaos, etc... all the good but also all the bad : death, pain, despair...
The battle between the factions (or the cosmic gods, really) of Elden Ring is nothing more than philosophy, with each faction representing a point of view and clashing with the others, in a battle to determine which one is "right".
The 3 fingers probably came to be because order existed, as they represent pure chaos. No matter what, they're the absolute antithesis to the order. Order seeks to build, organize and control, therefore the chaos seeks to destroy everything in a senseless chaos. It's kind of a yin-yang dynamic.
And just like the order seeks to maintain itself "alive", chaos seeks to make everything melt away and fuse again together. When there is absolutely nothing, there is no chaos but there is no order either. Chaos does not care for self-preservation, which is why it is called madness : because it goes against everything that life is about. That's probably also why the madness incantations can be just as harmful to you as they are to your enemies.
Honestly, the idea of all the outer gods being elements of the universe instead of actual gods is so much cooler than them actually being deities
My brain added to your lines regarding the fingers.
'they could by insane or lying manipulators' and we've neved seen that in a fromsoft game *spin camera to Frampt & Kaathe*
You have some of the best if not the best Elden ring analysis on the internet. Loved these videos
22:30
In retrospect, oh boy.
Minor Erdtree Incantation
“Secret incantation of Queen Marika.
Only the kindness of gold, without Order.”
“Marika bathed the village of her home in gold, knowing full well that there was no one to heal.”
Secret incantation because the Greater Will can’t find out or she’d be punished.
After all no one else would care or question what she used & only the Greater Will would know it contains no Order.
I honestly believe this incantation explains the whole dynamic between Marika & the Greater Will.
The first video seems to make much more sense with that in mind.
I always had this weird idea that after marika broke the elden ring it was radagan following the belief of the greater will who punished himself and marika by locking themselves in the erdtree
aged like fine wine
A great video! I am very happy to have found your channel!
There is another excellent video called „the greater will doesn’t care about you“ (something along those lines). The main point is: any order, be it of rott, of gold, of despair or of compassion is fine with it. That’s why it chose Melenia as an emphyrian - only some demigods were chosen and she started (by accident) to create the order of rott in Caelid as the sage says. I think to say that it at least is the abstract concept of order it self is valid for the greater will.
And I think it’s quite undisputed that Radegon sealed the entrance: one of the headpieces literally describes the pattern visible on the thorns as „his rune“.
Hey man, go easy on yourself. Nobody on this site, reddit, or any other platform has it all figured out; even big names like Smoughtown, Tarnished Archeologist, etc., have all had to make corrections, had their ideas debunked, or otherwise failed to give a holistic view of these things. Elden Ring is From's biggest most complicated piece to explore yet and we still don't even have the DLC which is incredibly important for these stories- imagine trying to recount the accurate history of Lordran without knowing about The Ringed City & humanity's role as slave knights or truly answering the mysteries of the Healing Church of Yarnahm while being unable to reference the events at The Fishing Hamlet - it's impossible. You're doing fantastic for what we have and even those older titles still have loose threads we'll likely never completley put to rest.
Thank you for another fantastic and thought provoking video, honestly I've been of two minds on this subject for a long time but feel better with my leaning towards TGW being intelligent and emotional in some way at least now.
Have a wonderful day my dude; looking forward to more great stuff from you.
Your videos are a sick jumping off point for a lot of deep thinking and conversation and thats why im here for them. I often disagree with you but the endeavor you took to dive so deep is foundational for any thought i had at all on the matter at hand.
I think I just became convinced that the character responsible for the item descriptions in the game is The Greater Will itself.
I've heard it suggested that TGW is similar to an amalgamation of the desires and needs of the inhabitants of The Lands Between and I feel this fits with it being a remnant of The One Great in that it is connected to all living things since everything was once part of it in the past. Furthermore it would explain why the item descriptions use language like "it is said that..." because it only knows the general consensus and accepted knowledge of things, and even why the descriptions are vague or inconclusive; that's the most that is known by the people of the lands between.
Perhaps this even explains why TGW did not respond when the Two Fingers of the Roundtable Hold sought guidance after the player discovers the Erd Tree is sealed; no one knew Radagon had barred entry.
A bit of a tangent but,
This could be why chaos repels TGW, dissenting opinions muddy the water and confuse TGW until it's too fractured and self-contradictory to have any meaning. This is where The Frenzied Flame comes in, a separate fracture of TOG that has resonated with the pain, suffering and insanity that has befell human kind. The fact that TFF's counterpart is the three fingers I feel is significant, not only is it a greater number of total digits that perhaps implies it is a larger part of TOG than even TGW; but it also includes a thumb which is stated to be what designates those who possess sapience.
I might have never had this line of thought without your videos and I thank you for the opportunity to stoke my imagination.
Actually, the way the frenzied Flame talks about the GW and one great actually impiles they were always serprate things and the Greater will was able to break apart the ane great to create souls and life.
This could actually imply the Greater Will actually predates life and existence itself and used the one great to make them.
Its also probably not best to think the 3 and 2 fingers go together to make one hand as it would raise the question of what about the mutiple other 2 fingers that exist with in the land between
I neeeeed you to make another one on this now that the dlc is out
I actuality do believe that the Two Fingers are lying, or are actuality delusional. When you defeat Morgott, and your path to the Erdtree is blocked, that seemed to have stumpted the Two Fingers (the one in the Roundtable Hold, specifically, since we know there are more than one Two Finger).
I think each Two Finger have wills, and desires of their own, in similar ways to how priests in our own world, and the Two Fingers in the Roundtable Hold had its own plans, and that plan was to have the Player Tarnished to become the Elden Lord, in the way that the Roundtable Two Fingers wanted it, and it was leveraging its supposed connection to the Greater Will, to claim some authority, but once the path to the Erdtree was blocked, the Two Finger didn't know what to do, and from that point, the Two Finger goes silent for the rest of the game.
If the Greater Will did not have sentience or any other motivation than “order,” it would just be full-sending on Shabriri and the Flame of Frenzy’s plan. Their plan is to melt everything into One, which would create ultimate order.
I really feel like people hear the word order they jump to the belief it must mean control and authority and that as a force of order, the Greater Will must need control.
Dispute being a force of Order the Greater Will is more linked more with evoultion and change as it has allowed mutiple orders to arise that has different views and was behind the craziness of the Crucible
It seems like we must widen our view of what order truly means to better understand what the Greater Will
for something to be ordered. it just needs structure, and a design with a clear set of predefined rules that governs its function or purpose. order is NOT simply authority or rule. it is the make up, and rules in which sets up that authority
Metyr, mother of fingers which was sent by the greater will was defective. Probably it started when Metyr influenced Marika to become a god and a vessel of the Elden Ring. The Tarnished is Greater Will’s attempt to fix it all; from killing all the gods, to making new order.
I think it's pretty compelling that the greater will is some type of physical being. If you look at all of George RR Martin's writings, I think there may only be one instance where we have an actual confirmed literal God influencing the story. In all of his other stories, most of which are science fiction, the gods of said story are actually just people or physical beings that happen to have great power and use that power to affect change in the world or universe around them, oftentimes by influencing people through more subtle means like sending dreams and visions. So the way I see Eldon ring, this is just an extension of many of the same themes that George RR Martin has been using his entire writing career. Essentially, Elden Ring is a story about some very powerful space being influencing what is ostensibly a medieval society and thus the vocabulary we can use to describe these outer gods is limited by the understanding of a medieval society where technological advancement is relatively minimal because people have certain abilities that us in our world would call magical. However in George RR Martin's writings this wouldn't be magic, but really just abilities that some people have much the same way that some people are better at sports than others. It's also worth noting that George RR Martin wrote an essay where he talks about what he calls the furniture rules wherein he sees no difference between the genres of science fiction and fantasy. George argues that they are essentially one in the same and the only difference between the two is typically just the aesthetic. A person in a medieval society who can teleport would be in a fantasy story, but the ability to teleport might be seen as a science fiction trope. Essentially, the stories are all the same between fantasy and science fiction, but whether a story is considered fantasy or science fiction really just depends on what furniture is in the room at the time. Are there wooden tables rushes and horses or are there metal tables windows and spaceships?
Item descriptions in Soulsborne games appear to be a reliable narrator who's not allowed to tell you the whole truth
Reliable, but consistently incomplete or vague, and keen on sharing local myths and beliefs with you (with prefacing indicating it)
You’re one of the few TH-camrs you uploads I never miss and always look forward to!
22:30 wait until bro sees the dlc
I don’t think anybody has the full picture of what the hell the greater will is, which is what makes videos like this so fascinating, exploring different ideas and theories. Of course people are going to get stuff wrong, but that doesn’t make a video meritless, it’s interesting hearing speculation and new perspectives. Keep up the great work and stay curious!
I do believe the greater will will accept any kind of order as long as one exists
The Golden Order was formed by the plucking of Destined Death, probably as Marika's answer to the Gloam eyed queen's attack on her demigod children and attempt to take the throne as an Empyrean
I think the Golden Order's aversion to death is built on a more emotional root than their Fundamentalism dictates, since they incorporated so much into the order before and after
In Marika's own words, she decided to study the depths of the Order. Given the term she uses this was probably after Death was banished. She would understand what cosmic thing they are actually dealling with
And what she found was so maddening she decided to shatter the whole thing at the cost of herself and possibly the world
Or maybe she answer she found with Radagon is that the best thing for the world was for nobody to sit on the throne, for no rule to take place, for Order to be forever out of reach
Maybe that's why she collaborated with Ranni if that was the case (Maliketh says she betrayed him and I can only think of the stealing of Death as something he would consider a betrayal)
There's always one thing sort of off about the spear that had impaled Marika. It looks to be a crimson red, similar to some bloodflame arts. I'm willing to bet we'll find out if Messmer was involved at all in her punishment when the DLC comes out for the rest of the community
This is such a great video analysis and it just opens my persepectives even more.
So I recommend you look into the videos of Vaati, Smough Town, Tarnished Archaeologist, Lokey, Ziostrom, Ratatoskyr, Miss Chalice, and many Elden Ring Lore theories
To have you knowledge expand more.
I personally believe that the Greater Will is a true Lovecraftian deity. it is therefore endowed with intelligence but reasons through canons and concepts that are completely foreign to us (it is therefore a cross between a chaotic force and an intelligent individual).
at the same time this would explain why it needs so many channels to communicate (the two fingers, marika, the elden beast...).
furthermore one wonders why such a powerful and conscious entity does not act directly on the world. if you see the Greater Will as a Lovecraftian deity this problem is quickly solved. there are various possibilities:
- it is, like many gods in the Lovecraft mythos, stuck in a sort of higher or detached plane of existence from which it can only influence the world (this is also suggested by other deities in the game, the formless mother, for example, can " appear" to Mohg only via portals)
- it is so different and alien in his ways of acting and reasoning that it cannot help but use intermediaries
- it has a problem similar to that of the Combine in Half Life, that is, it is too powerful and therefore what happens on the "planet" of the game is only one of the countless cosmic events on which he is acting and he doesn't care what happens on just one of these
(Sorry for bad english 🙃)
Great video!
The only real suggestion I have (and I completely forgot why I think this, so grains of salt all around) is that the Golden Order is specifically the order we had after Marika removed the rune of death from the Elden Ring. The Greater Will is a god of order, but Marika/Radagon is directly responsible for the Golden Order.
1:40 Marika, godfrey and radagon definitely are responsible for the genocides that happen in the lands between, Marika tells godfrey to put the giants to the sword and the greater will does not actually tell her to do it she just does it on her own. plus in the shadow of the erd tree trailer mentions seduction and betrayal while showing marika standing in front of a literal corpse mountain so marika has no problem getting people killed.
Radagon is a little less guilty because, if you think, his war ended with a wedding and diplomacy and the open of the GO to magic, even if Star destiny now is a taboo. And, funny thing about the Giant War, probably Marika Herself ""slayed"" the God of Giants and then cursed the last one.
That Corpses mountain in dlc trailer maybe could be the Crucible and not just corpses, but we see later a genocidal war in the land of shadow so yeah, she still is an *sshole.
I've been watching your videos for a long time and honestly all of them are great. Don't feel stupid for voicing your interpretation of art. There's no right or wrong when it comes to interpretation of art. I love watching your videos and I'll keep watching them because what you have to say is always interesting. Thanks for putting in so much effort for each video you make.
3:50 - I'm sorry, but did that 3 fingers maiden just describe an allegory to the big bang? Because that's what it sounded like, and if that's the case... then she's not wrong...
The name itself indicates intelligence, it being the Greater WILL implies it is/has a will of its own and acts upon it
Wow, i'm really surprised. Very few people can even think about the possibility to change their opinion, but admit it on youtube before their followers? Damn, I liked you as a content creator, now I really respect you as a person. Especially now that a lot of "open-mind" content creators blocks everyone who even say a little word against their opinion. You're cool dude.
About the video, this time more than corrections, i'll just help sendind some information and japanese translation, just to put every piece in their place if possible. Again, please everyone be gentle and civil.
1-Hyetta and Three Fingers
English is good but Japanese is even more clear.
"...Everything was separated from the one, greater thing. It was separated, born, and had a heart. But it was a mistake of the great will. Pain, despair, and curses. Every sin and suffering. They were all born from mistakes. That's why they must be put back together. With the yellow fire of chaos, everything will be burned and melted. Everything will become one, greater thing..."
Separate everything from the one, greater thing was a mistake of the Greater Will. High probably this mistake was, as you said, create the conditions of life and, probably, life itself (Golden Rune 3 says "Even now, runes are still imbued with the power of life itself") and they hate GW because, yeah, for them Life is Pain and they want to melt everything.
About the One Great, more probably it was the Nothing before the universe or a chaotic mass of everything that, in the end, is nothing. Nothing canon about this, maybe the GW was something above this One Great, or part of it, or it's Will to be separated, who knows.
And, i add something. In this case, if the GW created, in the end, everything from this One Great, even other gods are something from the GW, and that's why it don't care of them too. (Maybe except the one of Franzied Flame, that seems to be her total opposite.)
2- Unfortunately Berhnal was another character brutally cutted, like Vyke. We only know he was angry for his Brother and then we find him in Farum Azula. That means he burned his own Maiden like Melina did for us? Even it's relationship with GW is not clear. I think he was angry with her because he listened the fingers and thought GW is the one who have the fault of his mission.
3-There is a rule about Dark Souls and Souls games: Intro and Descriptions are always True, while Characters can lie. It's not a written rule but if we start to think descriptions and intro lies, then all the things we know could be fake. Of course Intro and descriptions let some shadow zone, like Dark Souls don't tell you how much time passes between the birth of the First Flame and the War with Dragons. Gwyn was king and he has an Uncle, not talking about and army with ability to create armors and weapons. I don't think they were born with those, so maybe centuries passed in a couple of dialogues.
This just to say: if the Intro says the GW abandoned the Lands Between, that's true. Even because they say GW is pleased and then take centuries just to call her?
Also, i don't think they was lying, because they're shocked like us before Radagon's brambles. They believed in what they was saying, so much that not even try to talk with her until now.
4- Yeah, high probably was the Elden Beast who imprisoned Marika and Radagon was took in the fury, even because in that moment they was sharing the same body as we see in the Intro/story trailer. Elden Beast also have a special attack that literally crucify us like Marika. Also, probably this is why the Elden Beast attack us: It's a hurted beast, and hurted beasts defend themself with anything.
5- High probably, the Great Treason of the Nox was killing their own Fingers with the Fingerslayer, or at least tried it, because Ranni want to do the same thing and it's called Great Treason too. When this is happened is pretty unknown, probably long before Marika was even born, because later she has a sort of relationship (Probably they was her maidens) with the future assassins, that where Numen like her and also descendants of the Eternal Cities. Also, we can see that GW cares a little about her vassals, enough to be angry.
(Abouth the famous theory of GW make them fall in the ground, look at the cities. They're build underground, not fell.)
6 and 7-Nothing to say, same point of point 3.
8-About a phisical body, well, it's very complicated in a world where Mohg can hurt a Formeless outer god to create blood spells and we fight ghosts, spirits and even remembrances. Especially because in this world Water, Space and Underworld are quite the same thing, like Bloodborne. (We fight a remembrance of Rennala, on a giant sea with the Moon on the orizon, or the dream of Godwyn on a smelly swamp, or Loretta on a big pound.) So yes, Gw could have a phisical body, but... probably is something too f*cked to understand it.
9-High probably the Two Fingers have a connection with the GW and they ""know"" it enough to think what is correct, but in the same time they are fools and probably a little mad. They believe all they say is true, that our mission is blessed by the GW, taking our return as a sign of her presence. But, when they find out the locked door of the Erdtree, they are shocked like us and go to talk with her, taking centuries. And this only if GW will ever take that call.
10- I noticed you talk about Marika and Radagon, and a lot of people hates Radagon and think he's a total fanatic. if you'll talk about him in a single video, please to read a lot of his lore, because is quite the opposite, but i'll tell something a little here. Take his title, King Consort, Prince Consort in japanese. In our world, King/Prince consort is the partner of the regnant queen and, except some influence, he have No official power. This means, all the big decision of the Golden Order, was all and only Marika's fault. This is also confirmed from how she calls him, Dog of the Golden Order, where she was the boss. Sure, he's not a perfect guy, but even Morgott or Radahn were both Pro-Golden Order. (P.s if you want more info on Radagon, don't be shy to ask.)
Talking about the Elden Ring, yeah, it's very editable. As we can see, at least 4 runes were influenced by their owners, Malenia's, Rykard's, Mohg's and Radahn's. And, if you think a moment, Radagon gave Rennala the Egg with the Rune inside it. A long before the Shattering. (Someone thinks that was the rune that Marika used to create Radagon himself.) And of course, the Rune of Death.
11-This point is totally my speculation and addition to the discussion, something to conferm that the GW is a intelligent entity.
It's name is literally Greater WILL. And ethereal living concept don't have a Will.
I think another important note is that Placidusax's existence proves that the concept of an Elden Lord being paired with a God has existed throughout the history of the lands between, even before the erd tree ever existed. Which I think really goes to show the point of the Greater Will not caring about the exact form of the golden order, more just exerting influence through this generally applicable system of a Lord + a God ruling the lands
I think FatBrett's interpretation is correct, that the Greater Will created the Elden Ring with Modularity in mind, if you were the Vessel you could add or remove pieces if you wanted to, to create a civilization based on your own Ideals and beliefs
I remember one point made in another lore video I saw some time ago, though I don't remember who did it: Radagon and Marika are the same person, sharing the same body most likely, as we see one become the other in the final battle. The video I saw theorized that Radagon sealed the Erdtree, tried to mend the Elden Ring as Marika smashed it, because he was having an existential crisis. He was a part of someone else and wanted to use the Golden Order to understand himself and Marika. He doesn't want to let go of the Order that gives him comfort, hope of being his own individual.
I don't think I can do the theory full justice with what I remember, but I thought it was interesting. The video also mentions how alchemy has a lot of influence in Elden Ring's world, at least inspiring it.
Not sure if anyone's told you today, but we all appreciate the hard work you put into your channel. Also, your narration is like butter.
Amazing video. Love the feeling of a conversation throughout this video.
Metroid Prime 4 finally got a Trailer and a name. I am already anticipating your video talking about it's lore.
So three points I have plus an addendum:
1. The Greater Will being Law vs Sentient:
There's a lot of space inbetween the two positions, for example the Greater Will could be as sentient as say the English Parliament. Perhaps it isn't a force of nature and has an agenda, but at the same time not be a singular being. We actually know very little about the Greater Will itself.
2. Characters and Item Descriptions are Honest and Accurate:
While I agree that these are by and large honest, I read them as if a medieval society is trying to describe the experience of a UFO dropping down making contact and introducing them to incomprehensibly advanced technology. Which is to say, there is a certain degree of interpretation involved that could (not always) impact accuracy of statements.
3. The Two Fingers as Representatives of the Greater Will:
Citing Enia after beating Morgot - "It may be thousands upon thousands of moons before the fingers again offer their guidance.
My, oh, my. Whatever will you do..."
It appears that there can be significant communication delay between the Two Fingers and the Greater Will, as such it is very possible that while the Two Fingers try their best to represent the Greater Will there can be long stretches of time where the Two Fingers have to use their own judgement and carry out what they *think* is the intent of the Greater Will.
Addendum:
My man, you are not stupid and your theories are valid and you are not misunderstanding anything!
While I did type out three short counter-points, I can in no way claim that they are definitive and/or disprove anything you have said. There is a lot of missing information, and I expect even post-DLC there will be still lots of missing information. If any counter points I or others have raised help you refine and/or elaborate your theories all the better, but if not... toss 'em! Your videos are solid!
One thing that could lessen Marika's crimes and involvement with the Golden Order a bit, is her lines that Melina recount's about her intent on searching and understanding the depths of the Golden Order. Which implies that she had no full understanding of it.
I wonder if the Fingers have a saying in the matter of what form the Order is going to take, since they are the ones choosing the candidates for inheriting the Elden Ring like the Gloam Eyed queen, Malenia, Miquela and Ranni.
The interesting thing is that Ranni doesn't have an issue taking the ER and becoming the next God after she took care of her Two Fingers. She mentions that she won't allow them to control her, but she never mentions the Greater Will, she only has a beef with the Fingers.
IMO it is possible that the Fingers are doing their own little schemes.
They were happily praising us and saying the GW is pleased while they had no idea what's going on with the Erdtree, and once we reach it and it turns out it wont let us pass, they finally decide to communicate with the GW.
There is also the fact that the Fingers have their own churches, teachings and assasins (confessor set and TF incantations) which kinda shows their duplicitous nature. Oh and they are giving the Empyreans their bodyguards that supposed to turn against them if they go against the Fingers.
Crimes? Gods cannot commit crimes.
@@iamperplexed4695 Matter of perspective I guess, but I mean technically Marika is just a person who achieved godhood by getting the Elden Ring and commited a bit of salvery and genocide here and there.
Mending Rune of Perfect Order's description just calls out Marika as no better than men despite her godhood.
@Lee-km7qq In the english version the dialogue is also somewhat positive, it sounds hopeful about that they are going to increase their own faith.
I doubt Marika shattered the ER because of Godwyn. Partially there are a lot of evidence pointing towards that Marika was involved in the Night of the Black Knives.(Although Ranni hijacked it halfway through.)
The other reason is, she sent away the tarnished way before that, so she already had a scheme going on.
Ranni's and the Fingers' situation is not a religious issue, she is literally forced into a situation by the fingers in which she essentially a hostage to them.
They gave her a bodyguard who is meant to kill her if she ever goes against the Fingers' wishes.They chose her to succeed Marika, just because they decided she is a good enough candidate.She went as far to killed herself, so they won't have control over her. It's not about being in a differnt religius group. She was also taught to fear the Dark Moon.
Her whole theme and goal is about people should make their own decisions without divine guidance, that is why she leaves and theakes the ER(a thing that was sent by the GW and she happily takes it without having to fear the Fingers control over her).
@dantoki6371 That's because it's written from the perspective of men, not gods. If those things are required to achieve goddesshood, then so be it, such is the way. Real people have done the same for the promise of lesser rewards on the daily.
@@iamperplexed4695 The whole plot of the game proves those lines to be true.
She is still just a human, with human emotions, ideas and flaws.
Her godhoodnes is not that impressive either, she is just one vessel of the ER as many was before her and there were already successors chosen for her.
The Fingers, the GW and the Elden Beast are above her.
I don't know what you are trying to prove with the last line? If people do bad things to achieve some great goal then that is fine because a lot of them have done it for less? Okay, if that is a good enough justication for you, but this part is a bit subjective at the end of the day.
Wait till he finds out about Metyr and how apparently she is the reason for communication with two fingers
I don't think you should feel like your videos are incomplete. I actually really enjoy hearing different perspectives on these things, and I almost always leave your videos with a new perspective I never would've considered otherwise. At risk of sounding a little cynical, most lore guys either reiterate things said in other videos, or they stay as vague as possible to avoid sounding incorrect. To avoid speaking our thoughts in fear of being wrong wouldn't allow these discussions to happen. If we're never allowed to be wrong, we can never learn why we were wrong, and thus can't improve how we think.
That said, I really hope you keep making videos about Elden Ring, and even other Fromsoft games and games with a similar kind of storytelling. I've really enjoyed your perspectives so far, and I'm looking at things in the story now in ways that I hadn't been before.
I don't know if it helps but I like the source and form of narration and item description as a rule of thumb for how literal I want to take it's information, like how the elden remembrance explicitly says "It was the vassal beast of the greater will" but the description of elden stars begins with "It is said that" which implies the only thing that can be taken at face value is that people believe as much, at least I believe games like this that pay so much attention to detail to their world building are similarly careful with their wording for such a distinction to matter.
Greater Will just passes down some fundamental laws so things get less fucked, watches for a bit to see if things go well which it seemed to with dragons, trusts those to be followed (leaves its Pager and a watcher behind), and then dips. Might be shocked to see things going wrong again (unless it actually did leave during the shattering in which case it realized it was a bit of a lost cause).
It was fine the last time it looked.