In machining, this is common practice. It's much easier to get accurate parts when your finish pass is like .01" because there's a lot less tool pressure. You find that your depth of cut, speeds, and feeds all vary depending on material, but in general, when roughing, you have lower speeds, higher feeds, larger depth of cut. For finish passes, higher speeds, lower feeds, minimal depth of cut.
I’m new to cnc. I’ve been doing it 6 months and really appreciate this video. I just tried this Technique and WOW did this work. Great video. This will save me a lot of sanding time.
Most TH-cam videos are made on the level of the person making the video. Meaning that if you have 10yrs experience with a CNC then you make very advanced videos. It's great that Andy Bird takes the time to make some videos like this to help less experienced CNC users get the best results possible out of their CNC.
Thanks Andy I did learn from this video... I always struggled with this concept and reduced the stepover too much during a carve so that my final result required minimal sanding... This method makes so much sense when described the way you did... Who cares what the first few layers of material removal looks like. I have just started getting requests for my finished work and now I can produce it much more efficiently
Thanks for the video. This is so true. It’s so easy to get into a mindset that the the CNC needs to produce the piece as fast a possible. Only then to realize you introduced an hour of complicated sanding to make things perfect.
I'm wondering if having the depth at 0.05 is accomplishing this already? taking two passes to get 0.1", the last one is barely taking anything at all. IDK just starting myself.
Thanks a lot Andy!!! I’m still new to CNC have a shapoko xxl this was very very helpful ! You have one of the best Chanel’s ! Very much appreciate you! Thanks again!
Holy cow - I totally forgot about final finishing passes until I saw your video. Using a bowl bit (or a round over bit) with 10% step over and very shallow final pass in the key for me. Thanks for reminding me.
my go to is cur roughing, then go back and cut final - .003 depth in raster with wood grain, then do final pass of .003 with wood grain raster pass. elinates any tool marks and makes super clean. i also like cutting profile to start with bowl bit, and then use flat end mill at stepover of .45 to do everything but final pass, then reduce stepover on that pass.
I've been doing it this way for a couple of year now and generally it works well, though better on some woods than others. I do still like to sand to get that final critically smooth finish on some special pieces.
I have a really good result with a .25 end mil bit for roughing. then a .25 ball nose with a 35% step over. This has turned into my one of my fav bit sets a .25 end mil then a .25 ball nose then a 1/32 tapered ball nose 8% step over for the tapered ball then i use a 45V bit to clean up the edges. But this is for high detail. Rest Machining method has became my friend.
I do know about this technique. I decided to watch your video because I have not been able to get it to work properly in vcarve. Every time I try the second tool path always makes the shape larger in diameter.
Hamilton dilbeck makes topographic trays and his cnc finished product has lot of chipping even with brand new amana spectre endmills. He then uses sand blasting to clean it up. What is your take on that method. He has a video about it on youtube.
Absolutely dig your work and channel. Question: I can’t for the life of me find a easy to follow tutorial on adding the bowl bit to carbide? Any pointers? Thanks!
I even do a rough pass, a prep pass and finish, but my workpieces are significantly taller. So my first removes most material but leaves the part like a staircase and the next leaves 1mm on it and makes it uniform.
When I first got my bowl bit I hated it. It left those ridges and I had to sand sand sand! Then I realized, duh, run the final pass at 8% stepover. Now my life is much easier. I've also introduced a vbit and paint in the process. Have you ever been able to be messy with your paint brush but never have to clean up the edges?
I've seen this before but never in this walk-thru format, that was helpful. Could you use just a flat 3/4 bit? Then use the bowl bit for the finishing passes and get that curve at the bottom in those final passes? Would that work? I'm not sure how deep that curved portion would be so maybe that wouldn't really save time? Does that make sense?
I think swapping bits out would introduce extra time. Plus, that's a 1/4" radius. You'd need to stop your flat bit 1/4" up from the bottom. I run my last pass at 0.025" which smooths out any ridges that the 40% stepover roughing passes leave.
@@JasonPeltier yeah, that's the assumption I was operating on: Swapping out the bits and have to swap at that 1/4" from bottom mark would likely take more time. Thanks for the confirmation. Either way it's now clear I need to be more patient about that finishing pass and really reduce the step over. Thanks!
If the wood is dry that you're using then try and leave the bottom and sidewalls thicker. But I'm guessing the wood you're using isn't dry all the way through
Andy I saw these 2" non woven Scuff & Buffs on Klingspor's website. Could you put this sander ball in CNC and sand your trays faster than sanding by hand? Maybe they are too big diameter but worth a try???
I'd think the shaft is too long at 3". I doubt if it's balanced like a router bit. Rotating at 16,000 to 18,000 rpm, the non-woven abrasive would probably fly off the shaft in a matter of seconds.
I've not personally found any real difference between going to .4, and doing two .05 passes to .5, and going to .45 with a single .05 finishing pass. I just really with programs like Easel would let you set them into one NC file easily so it would just switch and do the finishing pass without interaction. I think Fusion 360 can do it, but I'm still trying to figure all the CNC file setting out for my machine.
In Vcarve Pro, I make 2 separate toolpaths. I'm not sure if it's possible to switch stepovers in the last pass. And I set my last pass at 0.025" with no problems. I run the roughing passes as normal. And then the "finishing" pass, I set the depth of cut as the full depth of the carve with a starting depth of 0"
Thanks for this great video! I was using a 1/4" flat bit to hog out the pocket with a finish pass on the bottom and a 1/4" ball nose for finishing the sides of the pocket. This is way better.
How come it appears your machine uses pretensioned roller bearings on the long axis running over wood chips, but much better linear guide rails on the gantry? What a perplexing design decision
Andy, I have a question that’s kinda off the specific topic of the video. When setting the dimensions of a cut, does the CAD software consider the bit? For example, if i want to cut a 20” square, and with using a 1/4” down cut bit, does the software have the cutting line starting at the center of the bit, or does it consider the bit being used and do the calculations? If using the center of the bit, and I put in 20” x 20”, it’s gonna end up cutting 19 1/2” total cause of the 1/8” from center of the bit. I’m asking cause I cut a rectangle using that 1/4” bit, and it appears it came up an 1/8” shot on all 4 sides. What do you think? Any help is greatly appreciated?
Your software should have the option to set the toolpath to the inside, outside, or center. So if you want a 20" square you'd set the toolpath to the outside
I have a similar work flow and I do one pass. I offset the shape inside to get a small size thats centred, I just do a regular contour pass to the depth of pocket I want to create. Then set up the pocket operation at full depth, a small stepover, high feeds. Reason for the first operation is getting the bit in full depth and let it move without all the materials in the way. In carbide create as well, you should try it, It's faster than this technique.
@@AndyBirdBuilds Depending on the bit and material, 12mm, I can do 10mm 12mm DOC, 2-3mm stepover, 3500-4500mm/min. I'm Nigerian and we do have some really dense hardwood species here. The hardest woods will use the lower figures. I use 2 straight flute cheap disposable woodworking bits and they do a great job. I've a DIY CNC with a 1.5kw water cooled spindle, it's plenty power I think. Keep up the good work with the videos, I always love them. Thanks.
Love the content Andy!! I have been using your similar method from a previous video and it has been great. I have the shapeoko 3xxl. Do you think it can handle cuts this aggressive?
@@taramizelle7649 if you really want awesome results i would upgrade the z axis to HDZ or Z plus all provided by carbide 3d , i recently just upgrade to the HDZ on my shapeoko 3 XXL and this is by far the best decision
Andy this is faaar from zero sanding. Those marks are well visible especially if you put the finish on. As a process you did it well but the description is way off.
Why would you need to sand a carving? I f anything sometimes they come out too smooth. Also, go with the grain, an island fill on wood always looks terrible. Beginners out here giving lessons 🤣 .1 is only aggressive to 3018 owners
@@AndyBirdBuilds my machines are built in my home shop, they arent 100k machines. My point is, if i had no clue what i was talking about, i wouldnt be giving "lessons"
In machining, this is common practice. It's much easier to get accurate parts when your finish pass is like .01" because there's a lot less tool pressure. You find that your depth of cut, speeds, and feeds all vary depending on material, but in general, when roughing, you have lower speeds, higher feeds, larger depth of cut. For finish passes, higher speeds, lower feeds, minimal depth of cut.
As a machinist this is correct
I’m new to cnc. I’ve been doing it 6 months and really appreciate this video. I just tried this Technique and WOW did this work. Great video. This will save me a lot of sanding time.
Great to hear!
Most TH-cam videos are made on the level of the person making the video.
Meaning that if you have 10yrs experience with a CNC then you make very advanced videos. It's great that Andy Bird takes the time to make some videos like this to help less experienced CNC users get the best results possible out of their CNC.
I hope it helps someone get better results!👊
Thanks Andy I did learn from this video... I always struggled with this concept and reduced the stepover too much during a carve so that my final result required minimal sanding... This method makes so much sense when described the way you did... Who cares what the first few layers of material removal looks like. I have just started getting requests for my finished work and now I can produce it much more efficiently
You're very welcome!
Thanks for the video. This is so true. It’s so easy to get into a mindset that the the CNC needs to produce the piece as fast a possible. Only then to realize you introduced an hour of complicated sanding to make things perfect.
I'd recommend doing the last finishing pass twice. Wood compresses much more than you think and doing an extra finishing pass can make a difference.
I'm wondering if having the depth at 0.05 is accomplishing this already? taking two passes to get 0.1", the last one is barely taking anything at all. IDK just starting myself.
I was aware of the idea of a finishing pass, but the quick reference to the sizes of the tool and stopover was very helpful. Thanks!
Great! Thanks for watching
Thanks a lot Andy!!! I’m still new to CNC have a shapoko xxl this was very very helpful ! You have one of the best Chanel’s ! Very much appreciate you! Thanks again!
Glad it was helpful, Mike! 👍
Holy cow - I totally forgot about final finishing passes until I saw your video. Using a bowl bit (or a round over bit) with 10% step over and very shallow final pass in the key for me. Thanks for reminding me.
Thanks! It's so simple! When you started discussing it, I was like, why the hell didn't I think of that?
my go to is cur roughing, then go back and cut final - .003 depth in raster with wood grain, then do final pass of .003 with wood grain raster pass. elinates any tool marks and makes super clean. i also like cutting profile to start with bowl bit, and then use flat end mill at stepover of .45 to do everything but final pass, then reduce stepover on that pass.
I knew there had to be a quicker way! Thanks for the excellent vid.
Thanks Andy This new tome I will use on my next project "Daveyfriend Wood Designs"
Great!
What a Well Done Educational Video!!!
So Neat To Know! Thank You!!
This is definitely gonna save me a bunch of time, I hate sanding lol thank you!!!!
Fantastic to hear!
Have a nice day, work is always smooth.
Thanks, you too!
Thanks for the info. You have helped me immensely.
Great to hear!👍
Great video. Thank you for explaining that a little clearer. I've been looking for ways to gain time back in the shop, and this is huge. Thank you.
Great! Glad to help
I've been doing it this way for a couple of year now and generally it works well, though better on some woods than others. I do still like to sand to get that final critically smooth finish on some special pieces.
I'm brand new, never done a cut with my machine, or the bits I bought from you. Missed out on your training pkg
Great video! More cnc tip videos please 🙏🙏🙏
Glad it was helpful! I'll keep it in mind😀
I have a really good result with a .25 end mil bit for roughing. then a .25 ball nose with a 35% step over. This has turned into my one of my fav bit sets a .25 end mil then a .25 ball nose then a 1/32 tapered ball nose 8% step over for the tapered ball then i use a 45V bit to clean up the edges. But this is for high detail. Rest Machining method has became my friend.
Nice, Thanks for sharing your recipe!
I do know about this technique. I decided to watch your video because I have not been able to get it to work properly in vcarve. Every time I try the second tool path always makes the shape larger in diameter.
Thanks for the breakdown. Good info!
You're welcome, Bruce. Glad it was helpful!
Thanks for the Whiteside info. They’re actually better than my armana bits.
For sure!
Hamilton dilbeck makes topographic trays and his cnc finished product has lot of chipping even with brand new amana spectre endmills. He then uses sand blasting to clean it up. What is your take on that method. He has a video about it on youtube.
Hi, Really like the way you explain. Where can I get a Makita dust Show like yours?
Thanks! This dust shoe is from @carbide3d
Very helpful!!
Any tips for doing a finishing pass on a contour cut in Carbide Create?
I have been doing something similar, my final tool path is .035 and I usually speed it up once it is going.
Awesome! 👌
Absolutely dig your work and channel. Question: I can’t for the life of me find a easy to follow tutorial on adding the bowl bit to carbide? Any pointers? Thanks!
Appreciate that! The manufacturer should have all the bit info on their website
Nice dude!
Hope it saves you some sanding!
I even do a rough pass, a prep pass and finish, but my workpieces are significantly taller. So my first removes most material but leaves the part like a staircase and the next leaves 1mm on it and makes it uniform.
When I first got my bowl bit I hated it. It left those ridges and I had to sand sand sand!
Then I realized, duh, run the final pass at 8% stepover. Now my life is much easier. I've also introduced a vbit and paint in the process. Have you ever been able to be messy with your paint brush but never have to clean up the edges?
You're definitely not the only one. I did it too!
I've seen this before but never in this walk-thru format, that was helpful. Could you use just a flat 3/4 bit? Then use the bowl bit for the finishing passes and get that curve at the bottom in those final passes? Would that work? I'm not sure how deep that curved portion would be so maybe that wouldn't really save time? Does that make sense?
Glad you found it helpful. This applies to any bit. Even if it's a flat. In general, the lower the stepover the smoother the finish.
I think swapping bits out would introduce extra time. Plus, that's a 1/4" radius. You'd need to stop your flat bit 1/4" up from the bottom. I run my last pass at 0.025" which smooths out any ridges that the 40% stepover roughing passes leave.
@@JasonPeltier yeah, that's the assumption I was operating on: Swapping out the bits and have to swap at that 1/4" from bottom mark would likely take more time. Thanks for the confirmation. Either way it's now clear I need to be more patient about that finishing pass and really reduce the step over. Thanks!
how can I get this file and instructions ? love the bowl
Andy thanks for sharing, I had it backwards,
Great!
I have a problem with bowls and trays warping after they're done. Any recommendations for this?
If the wood is dry that you're using then try and leave the bottom and sidewalls thicker. But I'm guessing the wood you're using isn't dry all the way through
Awesome idea my friend
Andy I saw these 2" non woven Scuff & Buffs on Klingspor's website. Could you put this sander ball in CNC and sand your trays faster than sanding by hand? Maybe they are too big diameter but worth a try???
I'm not sure. Might be a good experiment 🤔
Check out "sanding mop", fluffy and regular and use it on a drill press.
I'd think the shaft is too long at 3". I doubt if it's balanced like a router bit. Rotating at 16,000 to 18,000 rpm, the non-woven abrasive would probably fly off the shaft in a matter of seconds.
With the Shapoko 3 with the HDM, would you recommend the same settings?
This means you do not raising the grain before applying finish? How does it look like when you apply it? Is it still smooth?
If it's a project you'd typically raise the grain on then you still will want to do that
Hi ! Is shapeoko 3 XL is good for leaning ? Thanks
Yes, definitely
I've not personally found any real difference between going to .4, and doing two .05 passes to .5, and going to .45 with a single .05 finishing pass. I just really with programs like Easel would let you set them into one NC file easily so it would just switch and do the finishing pass without interaction. I think Fusion 360 can do it, but I'm still trying to figure all the CNC file setting out for my machine.
It's all in one NC file because I have thr bitsetter on my Shapeoko
In Vcarve Pro, I make 2 separate toolpaths. I'm not sure if it's possible to switch stepovers in the last pass. And I set my last pass at 0.025" with no problems. I run the roughing passes as normal. And then the "finishing" pass, I set the depth of cut as the full depth of the carve with a starting depth of 0"
@@JasonPeltier I’ve been tempted to copy/paste the gcode from one file into another to see what would happen
Thank you for explaining in detail for us less educated people>
How you optimize this setup to make 100 pieces per day?
What would save the most time is a Shapeoko with a tool changer from the factory
One question. When machining plywood there are always a little tiny let's say hair at the bottom corners. How do you clean them?
Use a short compression bit
What's the brand of double sided tape your using here; one i've been using is way thicker and would like to change it.
My favorite is a double sided tape called Shurtape but I also use Xfasten sometimes
Which software you use for CAD CAM bro.
This is Carbide Create
Thanks for this great video! I was using a 1/4" flat bit to hog out the pocket with a finish pass on the bottom and a 1/4" ball nose for finishing the sides of the pocket. This is way better.
Great! This should save you some timen
How come it appears your machine uses pretensioned roller bearings on the long axis running over wood chips, but much better linear guide rails on the gantry? What a perplexing design decision
Andy, I have a question that’s kinda off the specific topic of the video. When setting the dimensions of a cut, does the CAD software consider the bit? For example, if i want to cut a 20” square, and with using a 1/4” down cut bit, does the software have the cutting line starting at the center of the bit, or does it consider the bit being used and do the calculations? If using the center of the bit, and I put in 20” x 20”, it’s gonna end up cutting 19 1/2” total cause of the 1/8” from center of the bit. I’m asking cause I cut a rectangle using that 1/4” bit, and it appears it came up an 1/8” shot on all 4 sides. What do you think? Any help is greatly appreciated?
Your software should have the option to set the toolpath to the inside, outside, or center. So if you want a 20" square you'd set the toolpath to the outside
Possible to get the feed and speed rates. Too blurry on the video. Thx.
I have a similar work flow and I do one pass. I offset the shape inside to get a small size thats centred, I just do a regular contour pass to the depth of pocket I want to create. Then set up the pocket operation at full depth, a small stepover, high feeds. Reason for the first operation is getting the bit in full depth and let it move without all the materials in the way. In carbide create as well, you should try it, It's faster than this technique.
Interesting, thanks so much for sharing. What is your depth of cut?
@@AndyBirdBuilds Depending on the bit and material, 12mm, I can do 10mm 12mm DOC, 2-3mm stepover, 3500-4500mm/min. I'm Nigerian and we do have some really dense hardwood species here. The hardest woods will use the lower figures. I use 2 straight flute cheap disposable woodworking bits and they do a great job. I've a DIY CNC with a 1.5kw water cooled spindle, it's plenty power I think. Keep up the good work with the videos, I always love them. Thanks.
Didn't understand your workflow.
Love the content Andy!! I have been using your similar method from a previous video and it has been great. I have the shapeoko 3xxl. Do you think it can handle cuts this aggressive?
Awesome! What z-axis do you have?
@@AndyBirdBuilds I’m still stock. No upgrades
@@taramizelle7649 if you really want awesome results i would upgrade the z axis to HDZ or Z plus all provided by carbide 3d , i recently just upgrade to the HDZ on my shapeoko 3 XXL and this is by far the best decision
@@kraftykwasiq4686 Thanks for the info 😊
Has anyone had problems using this technique in vcarve with it overshooting the pocket boundary? I cant figure it out!
Maybe check that your tool diameter is input correctly. Also check your offset?
This is exactly the way its done CNC machining metals.
This (wood) makes sense for wood, and you just proved it!! ( ͡❛ ͜ʖ ͡❛)✌
Great point!
Andy this is faaar from zero sanding. Those marks are well visible especially if you put the finish on. As a process you did it well but the description is way off.
Yeah, but you can see tool marks on your "finished" tray... 🤔💥
Why would you need to sand a carving? I f anything sometimes they come out too smooth. Also, go with the grain, an island fill on wood always looks terrible. Beginners out here giving lessons 🤣 .1 is only aggressive to 3018 owners
Comments coming from a machinest running $100k machines. My channel isn't for condescending machinest, so move along.
@@AndyBirdBuilds my machines are built in my home shop, they arent 100k machines. My point is, if i had no clue what i was talking about, i wouldnt be giving "lessons"
Sometimes people carve something other than pine.
@@JasonPeltier doesnt look like ya do bud. 🤣 nice finish on that texas flag
Ordering the Shapeoko Pro XXL Monday. Any accessories that are a must?..BitZero...BitSetter...BitRunner?? Thanks for all the help!
Awesome. Bitsetter is a must but it comes stock on the Pro. The BitZero is helpful to.
@@AndyBirdBuilds Thanks bud...this will def take me to the next level!