Y'all Need To Unplug Your Cars When You're Done Charging
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ค. 2024
- Kyle goes to see if our largest CCS network operator, EA, is truly not charging idle fees as we've seen an increase of EV drivers leaving their cars sitting fully charged at charging stations.
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#ev #charging #idlefees - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
Couple additions:
1 - Y'all need to unplug your cars and only charge to 100% when necessary and I need to get a haircut / beard trim - I get it haha
2 - I really hate to rag on ID.4 owners here, and it truly is a select few of the drivers, but it seems like it's happening in such huge numbers to find them full charged and left at chargers. I truly believe it's not out of intent, new EV drivers may not realize.
3 - I really hope CPOs start taking note and charge hefty idle fees especially as EV sales far outpace EV charger installations
4 - Really curious to hear your thoughts on this topic! I'm open to different ways of approaching this idling problem
considering the relative unreliability of CCS DCFC stations, i'm unsure if the "idle fees when the station is X% full" is a good idea at this point, as you could have half occupied and the other half considered "open," but not actually working. i think if idle fees are *actually* charged and are sufficiently high to cause at least one instance of sticker shock for each person that idles, it will stop the problem, especially if free DCFC credits given out by automakers cannot be used to pay for idling fees.
Automakers need make sure that the cables get unlocked after charging is complete, and that charge cables are long enough to reach a neighboring vehicle.
Saw a Tesla Model 3 with CCS adapter finished charging for an entire hour while myself and another EV were waiting. EA has to implement idle fees.
And I will say that there was an ID.4 there, and the owner empathized with my aggravation and left at 80% so my family could charge.
At work, I left a note on a coworker's etron that had been parked in front of a charging station WITHOUT EVEN BEING PLUGGED IN!! I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but when I came out to move my car at the end of my charging session, the etron was still camped out without being plugged in. At that point, I left the note--assuming that the driver was a new EV driver and didn't realize that it was not proper charging etiquette. Well, no good deed goes unpunished. The etron's owner reported me to our site security and accused me of having vandalized her car!
Buy an IC car, 5 minutes to refill.
In Quebec we have the “Electric Circuit” ( Circuit Électrique). They have started charging double rates at 90% of state of charge and above. It really clears up the chargers.
That is the way to solve the problem...charge more for the last few percent, and a huge fee for time at 100%.
Yeah I don’t get why they don’t do that
I'm all for incentivizing courteous use, but in my car, I often have to charge up to 95% or higher to reach the next charger. My car rips its full charger current ( a whopping 50kW on my BMWi3) all the way up to 90% so for me, this would be punishment for road-tripping my car.
@@tjsean0308 the Mini Cooper SE (which is basically your car), actually charges super fast to full. You won’t actually hold up anyone. The real annoying people are those bolt owners who abandon their car and don’t come back for more than 2 hours
I think they should do a time based timeout (with a cancel timeout button) at an hour just to force these guys to be near their car
The problem is you are penalizing people with small battery cars, or people who need to get somewhere where there isn’t charging. So it’s hard to justify screwing people who need to charge beyond 90%.
There are also people who just don't care. Came across an e-Golf owner pulling into a charging spot, not plugging in, and then walking away to go shopping. I called her on it and her only answer was to shrug and keep going. I know you want to give the benefit of the doubt, but there are a significant number of humans that just plain suck.
Exactly, people have zero self awareness and it ruins the experience for everyone else.
The only solace is she's got a really shit EV. Karma.
You should have flashed your pistol at her so she understood that you are not someone to be trifled with.
The recharger companies need to ensure that each charger is at the centre of 4 car park spaces.
The charger needs 4 seperate charge leads from the 1 charger.
Each recharge cable is plugged in and the charging of each vehicle is completed in the order that the vehicles booked the charger.
Thus 4 vehicles charge one after the other...anyone parked there isn't blocking anything for a long time....
unless by a freak happenstance there are 4 completed charge cars there....
at which time blocking charges apply and the red flashing beacon on the charger shames the drivers of the charged blocking cars?
Should've keyed her car
Preach. I knocked on a guy's door over Christmas who was sitting in his Audi playing a game on his phone. There were five cars waiting. He was "Just about to leave" apparently 😅
I remember reading that someone at a full Tesla Supercharger found a Tesla parked with the plug only half way plugged in. They wanted it to look like they were plugged in. The person kindly pushed the plug all the way in. Turns out the car was already at 100% so idle fees kicked in. When they drove by a few hours later it was still plugged in. I wish I could find that post. It was so satisfying to read :)
Charging pig? OK, next time you will be cut off at 70% charge. That'll hurt.
Or, yes, your idle fee after the grace period will be "donated" to the next two people you forced to wait. SO MANY ways to motivate people.
Repeat offender? No soup for you, go to the back of the line for 30 days. Or maybe, double your rates.
Amazing what trivial computing can do.
A d-bag Tesla owner - I'm shocked!
This is what happens when normies start buying EVs. Idle & tip top fees need to be $100/min or jail time.
@@DoNotEatPoo You're one yourself with those arbitrary numbers.
Lol
I can't imagine leaving my car in a gas station spot while not filling up with gas for an extended period of time. I feel like I could expect to find my car towed or vandalized if I did that.
People do it! They even did their shopping before they filled with gas!
Gas car owners definitely does this as well. The gas station near me has this happens so often that the gas station owner have to talk to the food stand operator next door and ask them not to let their customers park at the gas pump and go eat
The pump should charge Free gas credits, to be dispensed to the next pump user .. can do the same with EV Chargers... problem solved.
Some park at gas. Go inside, stand on line and pay, come back and gas up, then decide to go back in and buy a soda and chips. In the spot for 15-20 minutes
Have you been to a Bucees? this happens all the time. But they have over 100 pumps 😂
The problem with billing users for misuse of the system is that the system is so entirely janky. Sometimes I'll be on a road trip where I have driven for 3 hours, and when I look at the EA app it thinks I'm still charging at the last station I was using. Nothing about this can be enforced until they resolve these basic technical issues with their software.
Absolutely. I think EA doesn’t charge idle fees right now because they know if they do, they’ll errantly charge people who are not idle. This has happened a few times to me too, where I left but it still thinks I’m charging, or I’ve finished charging and it immediately “charges” idle fees with no grace period. Thankfully the charge was $0. They need to fix their system, then charge idle fees.
That's true, I didn't think about that. I use the tesla network so I'm "spoiled" in that sense. EA really needs to get their shizz together. It's embarrassingly bad in comparison.
I can confirm that EA's billing software is not working properly. I discontinued my Pass+ Plan over a month ago, but the app still shows me on the plans with a post-dated end date. I did a test charging session & they only charged me member rates. EA needs to hire some of those very skilled tech workers that were recently laid off because EA's software is just trash.
Agreed -- there are also situations where there is lack of cell coverage, cell network problem, or cell network overload when there are just too many people in the same vicinity, making receiving idle notifications or charge status notifications problematic....
@@jonaswut Yeah, there should be about a five ten minute grace period between when the app alerts that charging has completed (80%) and escalating idling fee rate hikes kick in.
Frequently we get a message from EA "your grace period is over and you are now being charged for idle time" when we are miles from a station. In other words, the software is broken. Maybe that is why they stopped charging idle fees.
@@OutOfSpecReviews.. Spammer
I recall many years ago being in line to checkout at the grocery store (this was the days before self-checkout) in a lane prominently marked “8 items or less.” A guy was checking out with considerably more than 8 items. When he had gone, the person in front of me asked the cashier why she had not sent the guy to a regular lane. The cashier said, “Oh management doesn’t want us to do that. It makes the customers upset.” Some rules are meant to be obeyed only by those who voluntarily will obey them.
I once actually saw someone get called on it by the cashier and move to a normal lane. It was fantastic, but it was only one time out of hundreds that it should have happened.
I cannot remember what grocery store it was but they had a limit on express check out and when you reached that number of items the cash register stopped working until sale was paid for. It got people's' attention. I remember the cashier telling people sorry but they won't let us ring up more than the stated number of items. People and their entitlement issue.
@@funnyfarm5555 This should be implemented everywhere.
the fact so so many people abuse there batteries and charge there cars to 100% at fast chargers and even every single night at home even if there at 80% when they get home they plug in and go to 100% makes me want to stay far far away from ever buying any used electric car.
I know... honestly batteries hold up pretty well to abuse but I love new EVs because I know every time I full charged / full drained a car
It’s around 10% over 10 years, right? That’s a year or two of life. Most electric cars we’ll be considered disposable, regardless.
The owner's manual describes best practices for battery life. Unfortunately, it's only categorical advice. No one has published the numbers from a longitudinal study. The data is certainly available. It's a manufacturer's trade secret. Where we'll see it first is in the trade magazines. Car and truck fleet operators will want the best charging protocol to minimize long-term cost.
Wring
@@float32 10 yr End of Life is very wasteful and stupid...
Unplug AND move you car! I regularly come across charging stations full of EV's blocking every charger and almost no one is charging. Not to generalize, but EV drivers seem to be amongst the least considerate drivers, at least in my anecdotal experience.
That's a heck of a point... how do we satisfy Kyles need for idle fees on cars that unplug? Camera's, weight sensors?
@@dbetlock Presumably by the same way ICE owners are charged the $150 fee for blocking a charger?
@@James_Ryan How does that work?
@@dbetlock I would love to know myself! :)
@@dbetlock just use an inductive coil like traffic signal sensors.
The answer is education! That’s all folks! Seriously though many new owners don’t know the complete ins/outs of EV ownership and etiquette. They don’t do their research and the dealerships don’t teach them either. I’ve had a couple of friends reach out to me that just took delivery of an EV to ask me the basic of questions. I know there are the 1% that do know what they’re doing but I believe most do not. We must educate and help others. Keep it positive and most will comply. Negativity in any way will lead to bad outcomes and deter people from EV’s. Cheers!
As often as EA chargers get stuck on that idle screen (when nothing is plugged in), probably a good thing that it doesn't charge you for idling. Once, after using an EA charger, it idled for nearly a week and the app kept sending me notifications about being idle. I'd be pissed if they charged me per minute for a week.
EA bill of $2060.40 for idle ing all week
It really needs to be cleaned up, I think. On a recent EA charging session, it kept showing I was connected and charging after I left the station and stayed that way for about a day until I charged again. I got a notification in the EA app saying they recognized there was a problem
This would explain why they have disabled idle fees for now.
The recharger companies need to ensure that each charger is at the centre of 4 car park spaces.
The charger needs 4 seperate charge leads from the 1 charger.
Each recharge cable is plugged in and the charging of each vehicle is completed in the order that the vehicles booked the charger.
Thus 4 vehicles charge one after the other...anyone parked there isn't blocking anything for a long time....
unless by a freak happenstance there are 4 completed charge cars there....
at which time blocking charges apply and the red flashing beacon on the charger shames the drivers of the charged blocking cars?
I totally get this. I only have the 30 min plan on my 2022 ID4. Been plugging in at home mostly. Even with it being free, its so much more convenient to just fill up at home.
Good thing you have a “home” and don’t live in an apartment, condo or whatnot.
@@markmonroe7330 EVs are a product for the home-owning middle class. If you don't own a home then EV is not for you unless you're willing to sit on your butts for 30 minutes at 9pm every night on a charger.
@@markmonroe7330 I figure anybody who doesn't have a place to plug in at home (or work) and chooses to get an EV is making a conscious choice to accept the foreseeable downsides of not having a place to plug in at home or work.
If we couldn't charge in our garage/driveway, we would not currently have EVs
@@dorvinion my hat is off to those who can’t charge at home but still buy an ev because it is a good thing to do.
So true.... A pamphlet on EV etiquette should be given in every EV car sold. 😂😂
So sad that such a thing would be needed.
Few would probably read it on their own. Someone at the dealership would need to explain it as well.
I think prompts on your screen the first couple charge sessions that you have to click through before it allows you to charge would be a good idea. Just a quick couple pages that takes 20 seconds to read should cover the etiquette basics.
Just put little notes on the chargers
And you seriously believe that would help?
Important topic, thanks! One aspect I don’t see mentioned yet is retraining people from gas fill-ups to electric. Most people gassing up their car do so to 100% (ie “full”), and we’ve been conditioned to do that our whole lives. Now we have to learn to “fill up”to 80 or 90% and then leave - very different!
My mache came with 250 kWh free on EA, and it did exactly what Kyle said: taught me how to use the network on a road trip, covered 5 charging sessions or so, and I’ve paid ever since.
So should the manufactures downgrade usable range to only 80% of spec?
not needed, you can get to 100% any time you need it by charging overnight, even level one if you go to 90% on level 3 before going home. Few people go through a full talk of gas in a day, they have gotten used to estimating if they have enough gas based on a rough analog fuel gauge. Now they need to learn to do the same estimates on a battery. Mine is at 68% at this second, but I am just driving home and have no long driving plans so no worries!
In NZ the chargers stop at 80%. You have to pick to charge past that and you can only pick it before pressing start, so it’s got to be a very deliberate act. I almost never see someone charging to 100%. Having said that, most people are still charging at home because driveways and garages are fairly common and the network is still pretty new. There’s only 3 sites in the country with anything above a 50kwh capability!
In Vegas call the parking enforcement number on the sign and they'll roll by and ticket it.
Without fees you will never convince people to care about taking up a charger.. the average person just does not care about anyone but themselves, and it shows in every type of public situation. If EA doesn't charge fees for sitting once charged, people will continue to do it.
Was at the Electrify America station in Effingham, IL a couple of weeks ago. It's at a really nice restaurant so it's great to plug in and and eat while waiting and watching the app so you can move to a regular spot if you're still eating and your car is done charging. There was a Mach E there that had 45 minutes of idle time when I showed up to charge, I charged about 40% so I could get where I needed to go and the occupants of the Mach E (4 adults who clearly came for dinner) were just getting to their vehicle when I unplugged and was about to back out. My wife who is very new to the EV world looks at me and goes "that seems very rude." Seems like such a common sense thing that people don't care about
On the topic of free charging: a lot of grocery stores in Germany installed 50kW chargers 2-3 years ago, so customers can charge for free while shopping. Guess what happened? The chargers were blocked 24/7 by people charging for free without ever stepping foot in the stores. I heard rumors about WhatsApp-groups where people would schedule charging times.
Now most of these free options cost money because a few people misused the system.
And also because energy prices have exploded recently and it's just getting too expensive to give away free electricity nowadays
Ye0s
The recharger companies need to ensure that each charger is at the centre of 4 car park spaces.
The charger needs 4 seperate charge leads from the 1 charger.
Each recharge cable is plugged in and the charging of each vehicle is completed in the order that the vehicles booked the charger.
Thus 4 vehicles charge one after the other...anyone parked there isn't blocking anything for a long time....
unless by a freak happenstance there are 4 completed charge cars there....
at which time blocking charges apply and the red flashing beacon on the charger shames the drivers of the charged blocking cars?
Kyle we need more PSA videos on charging videos & videos holding Charger Providers accountable in reliability and not charging idle fees. Keep up the great work.
the stations should allow you to ping the driver (like having the phone number on record maybe) so that you can ask them to move the car if you need the charger
the driver probably had to walk to a grocery store or a gas station to take a pee. since there doesn't seem to be a restroom at that or quite a few charging stations.
@@markbajek2541
6 hours?
I'd add in Australia we are also seeing this from Tesla 3/Y drivers with the LFP batteries.
This is because Tesla is recommending LFP batteries are charged to 100% on a regular (weekly) basis to keep the BMS in check.
So we are seeing people blocking 50/75kW chargers for a long time.
I remember when the MK BP hub was blocked totally every night for months by charging minibuses. The buses were being run for the council that owned the land the chargers are on. The council would do nothing, the minibus company would do nothing, and BP refused to charge the overstay fees printed on the chargers. I surprised a few windscreens weren’t smashed in.
Milton Keynes? Near the bus station? Oh what a shit show that was ....
Right on Kyle!! The other bad, but less serious problem are those EV drivers with a car that CAN'T charge faster than say 150kW, choosing to plug into a 350kW charger because they think it will charge faster. I'm sure it might just be ignorance of the facts, in some cases, but the chargers should be programmed to not charge that vehicle IF there are other 150kW chargers vacant at that station. It could simply display a sign asking the driver to please move to a charger post designed for their car.
Great points, Kyle. My wife has a 2021 ID.4, with the three year unlimited charging. But she charges at home - it’s cheap and so convenient!
On road trips, she’s been very good about staying with the car and unplugging once she’s reached her desired charge level (~80%). A couple of times she’s needed to get closer to 100%, but she’s become more and more comfortable with the car, it’s capabilities, what “range” really means, and all the other nuances of the EV life.
I would point out that, in my own 50 years of driving, I’ve noted one change - and this applies to all types of drivers and vehicles. They’re jerks. Self-centered jerks. They make up their own rules to suit their own interests, and to hell with everyone else!
I just came back from the grocery store. I go early (I’m retired) so it’s not busy. And I park far away from the store. Right there, blocking the lane, was this van, waiting for a spot to open up right next to the door. Mind you, behind them were a ton of open spaces, less than 10 yards further distance. And they had no handicap plates. The driver actually put the van in reverse to grab a spot, nearly running into a car coming down the lane.
And that’s just one. People backing up on the interstate. U turns on busy avenues. Sudden, unsignaled swerving across lanes of traffic to make a turn. Blocking driveways and exits because it saves them ten feet of walking. On and on…
So it’s not surprising that this jerk attitude is polluting the EV world, sadly.
I drive a Tesla and I see it there too. (And I’ve seen jerk behavior at gas stations, too.)
Sign of the times, my friend. Sign of the times.
Another problem we have here in Canada (at least where I live) is people using “EV while charging only” spots to just park their ev… This is so common in shopping centres, when parking spots are limited. I don’t know if people don’t pay attention to the signs or if they don’t care but it’s very annoying…
Especially in locations where the EV charger is in the "rock star" location right outside the entrance, I've seen plenty who park without even plugging in at all.
Yeah, EV or not, how do you charge people an "idle fee" for using those spots if they haven't plugged in/swiped/interacted with the charger at all?
@@dbetlock Free towing!
Charging spots should not be in the "rock star" locations. Up front spots should be for quick customers.
This is why I try to avoid Volta chargers at busy shopping centers. Since they're free, they are very often filled up by people who simply want the parking space and don't need to charge, so someone who does need the change is very unlikely to find a charger available.
Okay, I'll toss this one onto the pile. There is a charge point charger at the local college and when you hit 80%, the college, NOT charge point, charges you a $20 parking fee.
San Jose has a very busy EA station at a local mall. This mall started to charge for parking in their garage last year. Now I see people using the EA spots for free parking - even ICE vehicles.
Plug in hynrid0e
Great video Kyle! Really appreciate your focus in trying to get DCFC providers to up their game and informing EV owners best practices.
I'd be tempted to hit the stop button on the charger and unplug them if I could get access to the cable for my own use.
Great video. 50% of empty working stalls at most EA stations right now is 0.5 stalls.
Another option is pay it forward, when blocking the spot after completed charge a user would pay for 2 minutes of charging for each 1 minute overstay.
What’s funny is everytime I was made to wait at a charger it was ID4 owners that left us stranded. It happens at least a couple times a month. Idle fees need to be imposed… I once was made to wait 1 hour on a road trip while the ID4 owner was at 100% and no care in the world. Super frustrating…
The recharger companies need to ensure that each charger is at the centre of 4 car park spaces.
The charger needs 4 seperate charge leads from the 1 charger.
Each recharge cable is plugged in and the charging of each vehicle is completed in the order that the vehicles booked the charger.
Thus 4 vehicles charge one after the other...anyone parked there isn't blocking anything for a long time....
unless by a freak happenstance there are 4 completed charge cars there....
at which time blocking charges apply and the red flashing beacon on the charger shames the drivers of the charged blocking cars?
Just unplug the EV and when the owner gets notified then get in there face about it maybe that’s what it takes to educate these idiots
I see a lot of Tesla owners doing this same crap and what’s funny is they have a high charging system that is required when purchasing a Tesla yet they go down the street to get groceries and feel the need to plug in REALLY your not going to make it back home idiots
In the early days of owning my Ioniq 5, I used my local EA station for the free electrons much more than I do now. I've had a home AC charger since day 1 and realized that if I went into the store beside the charger to use the restroom and buy a soda and a snack I was spending more money charging than if I charged at home. So, now I only use my local EA charger if I actually need to shop nearby and don't make up reasons to go there.
Thank you for calling this out! I have driven cross country so many times and I see leafs, Niros and ID4s sith no one in there or sleeping for over 2 hours when I need to go and on a time crunch.
Flashing a pistol will get them to move.
As an older Leaf owner, my big beef is all the people who's favorite CCS stall is the one stall that has the one CHAdeMO at the station. By default I charge at home but two days a week I have to drive my kids around more than my 120V cable can keep up with. I HAVE to use my local EA station once and twice a day those days and >60% of the time there is one car (usually unoccupied) at the site using the one CCS plug that ties up the only CHAdeMO plug. It drives me bananas and I always have a tight schedule to keep.
Plot twist, all of those previous ID.4 owners were making videos of doing tests to see if they'd be hit with idle fees.
In fact, Supercharger idle fees kick in when 50% of the *functional* chargers are in use, so for EA you might have to charge an idle fee with only a single car plugged in since half the stations will be down.
I heard a talk from someone who worked for EA - at one time they actually did charge idle fees. What was happening was that people would plug in, then go in to do some shopping, and the car would be done charging before they were done shopping. So they got complaints, and EA dropped the idle fees. Back in the day when hardly anyone was using the things, it might have made sense to do this, but it is no longer true.
As a new 2023 ID. 4 owner ( Also own a 2021 model Y ) One of the reasons here in Tennessee that we charge to a higher SOC is we just don't know if the next charger will work or not. I know that may come as a shock to some. hahaha For instance, we took a trip to Gatlinburg to visit family right before Christmas. We stopped in Cookeville EA to charge. the next DCFC is Knoxville and it is well known that this station only has 2 that work and rest of them are down. Not good odds when your on the road. 40 miles past Knoxville is another EA that we could only get 60KW peak charging. So basically we didn't want to have to sit there for an hour. The model Y, different story as you already know. after 45,000 miles and several road trips, we only found 1 Tesla supercharger plug that didn't work.....ONLY 1 in over 2 years! CRAZY! Love your channel and love what you are doing for the EV world!
Love the videos !!! Your channel is like a daily tv show 👏👏👏
I'd rather manufacturers start incentivizing level 2 installs at home vs offering free DCFC. At the end of the day, DCFC costs them money and in some markets (Like mine) there is only ONE EA station within any sort of reasonable distance and it's not even convenient or a direction people in this area drive by. I would much rather have a credit of $500 - $1000 towards 220/240v charging at home vs free public charging.
In Ireland - "To ensure a charge point is available for the next user, an overstay fee of €8 applies for charging sessions longer than 45 minutes on ESB fast and high power chargers and after ten hours on standard chargers." A fast charger in Ireland is 50KW
Usa Italy fast charger 500 kw eltric farri lamghini.
In Thailand ... most chargers have to be pre-booked on an App and only give you 55mins. I think Kyle tried one in Germany where you pre-book and a barrier comes up from the ground to block the position when empty and only lowers when you check in
I like that, have it so they need to make an appointment 24 hrs. ahead of time. This will make the irresponsible people come back the next day.
I fully agree with your proposal. It's not only a good thing, but I think it's actually needed if we want to have a smooth streamlined charging experience. I live in Montreal, and the L3 chargers will invoice you 2x for every kW above 90%. And you know what, it seems to work well, I haven't encountered too many problem with people hogging the charger.
We had the same here in the UK. VW had a deal with a UK retailer to provide free EV charging. But due to increase in wholesale electricity prices and due to people abusing the free charging, it now costs between 28p and 50p per kWh to charge. Idle fees is something that I see will follow soon.
Seriously, as a newer Mach e owner, I took the time to watch out of spec motors on charging and that really helped keep my "awkward charging stage" on the shorter side. Thanks for the great info!!
Great video explaining a recurring problem that seems to be getting worse as new EVs hit the market and tons of new EV owners are starting their journey. One other concern I have is around non-EV cars parking in these spots just to find parking. I have noticed the Target near me had some construction done on some spaces which limited the amount of parking. In return, people found that they can just take an EV charging station and park there. This poses a problem as there is no way they can be charged idling fees. I understand that some places enforce fines for non-EVs parking there but wonder how often those are actually enforced. This makes it difficult also because they are not tracked through EA apps so "open" stations will not really be open. Great content as always!
There’s one guy in our apartment complex that constantly keeps his Tesla plugged into one of our level 2 chargers. I’ve left him a note to move to no avail.
Luckily, those Tesla J1772 adapters don’t lock the cable to the car😊
They do if he buys the Karen lock
Have you considered flashing your pistol at him to show him that you are not a person to be trifled with?
@@Christoph-sd3zi sadly those Teslas have cameras that would record my cowboy style justice.
@@MrLogansimmons Wear all black and a knife to his tires, he will get the message.
Just unplug it that’s what I do what’s the jerk going to say that charger belongs to him or her I see a new form of charge rage and it’s going to get worse
Thank you for highlighting this issue. As someone who lives in an apartment, I rely on public and fast chargers to charge my vehicle (only to 80%) and the number of times I have to sit and wait 15+ minutes to charge is wild. This is in Boulder specifically. I also just struggle with distribution of EAs in Colorado generally: why does Denver have a ton while Colorado Springs has 1? I get it that Denver has probably a ton more EVs AND having inaccessible charging is just going to dissuade others in a situation like me.
I live in an apt and rely on public fast charging as well. I have free unlimited EA charging but how I wish I could pay and charge at home because yes public charging is a pain. Thankfully I barely drive these days. I don’t recommend most apt dwellers to get EVs. It’s just not practical at this time.
Being from the Springs area, why Denver has a ton and Colorado Springs has so few is probably the same reason why public transportation is so much less in the Springs. The answer isn't really about the practicalities of it but the political and social culture.
The recharger companies need to ensure that each charger is at the centre of 4 car park spaces.
The charger needs 4 seperate charge leads from the 1 charger.
Each recharge cable is plugged in and the charging of each vehicle is completed in the order that the vehicles booked the charger.
Thus 4 vehicles charge one after the other...anyone parked there isn't blocking anything for a long time....
unless by a freak happenstance there are 4 completed charge cars there....
at which time blocking charges apply and the red flashing beacon on the charger shames the drivers of the charged blocking cars?
It's really a simple answer... Lots of people are well.. kinda of spoiled and they don't really care about anyone else... Seems to be a major problem in America, trust me. Example... off topic but proves my point. When I go shopping Walmart for example, I park and as I walk towards the entrance I grab idle carts that were left around the parking lot in parking spaces...I return them to the cart stations , I've been doing this for many years... I can say without question I see and return way more carts these days then I used to...
Most brands do not lock the ccs plug when the charger stops, so unplug it and charge yours.
I always unplug them. its not their charger.
@@luiss5562 exactly! and if you make a short video about it theres nothing they can do or say
Really appreciate all the work you are doing to improve the state of EV’s and charging!!
I appreciate Kyle bringing awareness (shame??) to this issue. I had a Bolt EV a few years ago and realized very quickly that it was not a road tripping car because I had to charge high enough to be sure I could make it to the next DCFC incase one didn't work. Now I find that the state of the CCS network is still very poor.
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Important video Kyle! Well done.
This happens all the time in the ICE world. The local Wawa's have cars at all pumps and you have to wait. Drivers are typically in the store getting something to eat while their gas tank has long been filled and people wait for an open pump. Also since there is no formal queue you may get lucky and only wait a minute or you may try to switch lines only to see a newly open pump be immediately occupied by someone that just pulled into the lot.
I just shared your video with an "I agree with Kyle" statement... My nearest EA charger is 80 miles away an I only use them when I travel (not as much as you), but I have put more than 8,000 miles cross country trip miles on my HI5 in the last 6 months.
EA really needs to get their Sh*&^! together. The chargers aren't reliable enough, and now no idle fees? come on...
It's actually a bit funny, because even with the number of percent sold by ID4, it's obviously something that applies in many countries. I live in Denmark, and here ID3 and ID4 are also popular. In particular, many buyers are in the 45+ age group. And exactly that combination 45+ and ID4 is an almost certain (yes, unfortunately) combination that you charge to 100% and for far more than 50% of the time the car is allowed to stand for a period afterwards.
In Denmark, judges recommend that you do NOT disconnect a car that stops, due to the complications that can arise. Many people press the "emergency stop" so that the charging stops and they can disconnect the car, but they unfortunately discover that many times the stand shuts down and can only be started again after the technicians have passed, since the stand is "error reported".
I have driven the Kona 64 myself for 3 years now, and have not yet once charged to 100% on public stands - it is not worth it at all with the charging curve that has come on the car after their "battery problem" was diagnosed . On the other hand, I have only once in my 3 years as an electric driver wished for a faster charge than the 77kWh that the car is capable of. But in everyday life in Denmark, you (I) typically prefer not to use so many kWh. Only 4-5 times a year do I drive over 350 km (about 218 Mi) on a trip. On the whole, in my case the car is only a tool to get from A to B, and I do NOT need the great luxury. The money this costs (insanely expensive in Denmark due to high taxes and more). A Tesla Model S Plaid standard model (WITHOUT options) starts at a price of DKR 1,458,000 (around USD 208,400) *** just overnight a couple of days later, Tesla has dumped the Price to DKR 1.275.696 (182.345 USD), which is quite a lot more than the USD 135,990 that the price stands for today on TESLA.COM. 72410 USD difference is more than I paid for my Kona and I refuse to pay that. But all else being equal, I would like to have another better and more luxurious car, I just don't want to pay the insane amount of money for it! So I am happy with my Kona. Price, performance quality and more are ok, and it works....
As far as I know, no CPO takes idle fees in Denmark, and that is a big mistake. It should be quite a normal and common thing to do, regardless of how many cars are currently connected. The situation can be completely different in 5 minutes. This, combined with the fact that until a few months ago you could buy a subscription to charge - charge all you want for a fixed amount monthly, meant that it was in the interests of the CPOs that the chargers were blocked, because then people could not charge, and they earned more (= had less expences for power). But I hope that changes. And I think that you can safely set the price at 200% of what it costs to charge at full power on the charger - because people can simply move the car, so they don't have to pay this amount, but others can, so it's a win-win-win. As long as it's free to hang out and occupy a charger, people will do it. Without thinking a tiny bit of others. GOOD CHARGING ETIQUETTE is to be considerate of others (only charge when necessary), don't leave the car standing (occupying a charger), stay away from other people's cars (no unplugging). Do not hog on the spot. Refrain from playing loudly and so on - all the things you call normal good behaviour.
Eltruc bug foot rn kver ther evs
I fully agree - in Germany we see the same problem, example: if you got a VW group EMP price plan, it is cheaper to charge at the CPO IONITY than charging at home in many cases. Long distance travelling can be difficult if you have to rely on charging locations that are heavily used 🤔
Even though we have over 30 11kw AC chargers at work, we have a rule that those who plug in when they arrive in the morning, unplug after lunch and let others charge. one of our clusters of 14 chargers, can only deliver 7kw when all are charging but then goes up to 11kw as soon as the plugin hybrids are done.
I agree with your point view. Idle fees is needed to avoid these issues.
Great etiquette video !
Would be curious to know if EA sends you an email or letter reminding you of your violation of idle time, and if they eventually plan to charge idle fees.
Also, understand that some battery types (LFP) need to be regularly charged to 100% SOC. So, if that’s the case for CCS vehicles also, then people need to be understanding for those EV’s.
It might be that people park somewhere, go to hangout with friends, and just forget about moving or unplugging the car. At least in some cases.
In NZ, most chargers have two parking bays per charger. It works out pretty well and the etiquette is to just unplug the other user when it’s at 80% (most chargers here have an auto shut off at 80% and you have to manually override it, most don’t) plug in your own car. I’ve never yet seen a situation where there’s a queue built up due to someone not coming back as they’ve always got back before the second car is finished. I’ve only seen a queue because someone has decided to go past 80% and the extra time that takes. It was me once on a long trip across country and our network is still pretty sparse. My nearest city has only about 6 chargers in total! Electric cars are selling fast here now but I’ve only seen plans for one new super fast charger, but no idea when it’s due.
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In high volume charging locations you could implement a valet service of some kind, ideally with plug and charge.
If EA is barely maintaining chargers at it is I highly doubt they would pay a valet service for every chargers along main corridors. I better system would be a hybrid reserve/first come system. So if you arrive at a full station you can hold your place in line then when it's your turn you get some kind of indication that a certain charger is yours and you enter a code from the app or tap or something once you pull up to the station.
EA could make use of the screen and lights to let people know that that charger is reserved but only hold the reservation for like 5 minutes so people couldn't use GPS spoofing to try and hold up a charger all day.
Thanks for the video Kyle, I had no idea it was this bad at EA stations. I've only been driving a Tesla and using the supercharger network for several years and have't yet come across this kind of problem. I would definitely be onboard with EA and other DC fast charger operators bill users for idle fees and increase the fees the longer they are idling. Penalize idlers just like Tesla does!
In my parking garage at work, there are two Jeep Wrangler 4xE's that take up two of the four charging spots for 9-10 hours every day. Yeah, with a 17-kWh battery and signs saying courtesy charging sessions should be limited to 3 hours, they just take up two charging spots for no logical reason.
Unplug it and call a tow truck
@@ferkdizzle The spots are in high demand and are rarely open after 9 am, often full of hybrid vehicles no longer charging just taking up spots. Idle fees, especially surging idle fees, would definitely turn these spots over faster.
@@ferkdizzle They’re not there because they know you’re not coming soon. Unplug when you know you’re done, I know you have to walk out and move the car ……. is it too much exercise!
Another option is to create/use a "smart" station with the ability to read license plates to prevent switching to the next free session. This could also be helped by watching blockers.
Also a different design of charging points with shared charging capacity may help, instead of 4 output cables double it or make it ten. The average charging time will be a bit longer, but it will be better than waiting tens of minutes for the blocker to come back. We're a long way from the point where every car on the market is capable of using the full power of the charger.
While I'm here I don't think IONITY charges an idle fee! This is crazy when it's one of the largest charging networks in the UK and we don't have enough fast chargers as it is for the current number of EV's being sold, Christmas was a disaster by all accounts unless you left home at 2am (like we did).
veltric rv. Yaghts boat long rang next he n vate soo long range make inter home dining 2 am am. Morjg. Nigh rv yaght ekrrc have radaylr spot light search kight
Love the channel - getting my first electric car in March. Learned most of what I know from this channel - thank you.
What’s the gesture for emergency brake 😂
Good luck with the new EV, they are great.
Thanks for bringing attention to the problem Kyle!
Between Robert Llewellyn, Johnny Smith, Nikki Gorden-Bloomfield, Tom Moloughney, and you Kyle Conner; I have had several lessons in EV etiquette.
I think we should charge Kyle for taking 20 minutes to say UNPLUG THE FREEKIN CAR! lol
Seems like "Plug and Play" will fix a lot of these issues, as well as newsletters from auto makers and charge point operators to educate EV users.
The best fix IMO is to simply have more dispensers than there are DCFC circuits, then the DCFC banks can be moved from one dispenser to the next as their charge hits 90%, maybe switch them over to 7kW L2 at 90%.
As for exorbitant idle fees, pretty sure that would end up disputed in court: it makes no sense for the operator to charge more for idle fee than max-speed charging for that dispenser.
ID4 driver here I charge up to 80% twice a week. I stay with my car usually and unplug and move. I will get a home charger as soon as I first upgrade electrical on my whole house. It’s really not that hard to understand. You finish you move for someone else.
I travel a lot and often by air. I troubles me to think about leaving my car plugged in to a L2 charger for a week while I'm gone. Atlanta has peachy parking with about 100 120v plugs along one wall of their indoor parking and Charlotte has business valet where they charge your car and move it while you are gone. Columbia SC has a few parking spots on the top of their parking garage that have 120v plug and had planned to put more in prior to the coof.
That's difent oingvtravel need stay plug in. That not like try one else chef trav ektric airlines ejrrc hilcoptirs to
Another issue is that with current energy rates in the UK my discounted Audi/IONITY rate is cheaper than my home electricity rate so I have become that person who occasionally drives a few miles down the road to a fast charger, which is always backed up with 4-5 cars so I'm not sure it's just me doing this now 🤔
I completely support charging for idle fees. People seem to think these are parking spots with charging, rather than thinking about them as they were intended which is a “filling station”. I really wish EA would start charging idle fees!
Agree with you about charging network companies to charge HIGH idle fees... so could be $2 / min.. so five minute idle means $10.. that gets expensive fast and a good lesson to be learned by the offender.
The problem is that people who watch your videos are usually experienced EV owners/enthusiasts. Maybe there’s another way to spread the word? I’m from Canada and this is an issue here as well, happens on public charger but mostly on destination chargers where there’s no idle fee whatsoever. It really pisses me off when I see this happening and I don’t even use public chargers that often (mostly home charging and supercharging when I road trip).
Yup Tesla drivers, they don't even bother plugging in, they just park at the destination chargers, and block the spot.
The recharger companies need to ensure that each charger is at the centre of 4 car park spaces.
The charger needs 4 seperate charge leads from the 1 charger.
Each recharge cable is plugged in and the charging of each vehicle is completed in the order that the vehicles booked the charger.
Thus 4 vehicles charge one after the other...anyone parked there isn't blocking anything for a long time....
unless by a freak happenstance there are 4 completed charge cars there....
at which time blocking charges apply and the red flashing beacon on the charger shames the drivers of the charged blocking cars?
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq these people have zero shame, like everything else the government is pushing for conflicts between people, just wait until they start installing chargers in the ghetto, you think fighting over parking spots is fun
I would be interested to know what your ideal placement of chargers in a city would look like if you were to illustrate it. Like for me, I would install L2 chargers only in shopping centers, stadiums, theme park parking lots where people would leave their vehicle for potentially hours at a time while having fast chargers in gas stations, cafes, fastfood restaurants, rest areas off highway, for places where a person really wouldn't spend more than 15-30 minutes. And maybe like at a restaurant, if you charge and eat there at the same time, you'll get like a 1 hour grace period before getting idle fees. That's just my vision since I became an EV owner a few years ago. Also would be interested to know what the process of installing said chargers would be like in certain areas. What permits need to get approved? how does a land owner go about contacting companies and what is the time frame for installation. I think if you made a video like that, business owners might find it useful.
Chef charbg restoration. Hitel. Grocery stor shopping malls.
Fashion Valley Mall in San Diego is a bit idiotic. Several fast-charge plugs (EA, EVgo, and Tesla Supercharger) but only two Level 2 plugs (one part of the EA station, charging the same rates per kWh as DC fast charging, and the other part of the EVgo station with a per-minute rate making it bad for cars that can't accept its max rate). Terrible for people with PHEVs or older EVs without fast charging (such as the Fiat 500e or the first-gen Chevy Bolt without the fast-charging option). Also, you have to come back quickly to move your car so you can't charge while watching a movie at the attached cinema. It really needs more Level 2 plugs.
(Corrected: the EVgo station also has a Level 2 plug, which I missed)
The recharger companies need to ensure that each charger is at the centre of 4 car park spaces.
The charger needs 4 seperate charge leads from the 1 charger.
Each recharge cable is plugged in and the charging of each vehicle is completed in the order that the vehicles booked the charger.
Thus 4 vehicles charge one after the other...anyone parked there isn't blocking anything for a long time....
unless by a freak happenstance there are 4 completed charge cars there....
at which time blocking charges apply and the red flashing beacon on the charger shames the drivers of the charged blocking cars?
Solution: Dishcharge. Like after 30 minutes of idle, aside from $$ penalty, charging unit starts to "take back" the charge the vehicle was just given.
I really like what Chevy did with the Bolt, no charging credits but they paid for you to get an outlet installed in your garage. I like the idea of that, or a discount on a Level 2 charger, something tangible like that that has to be cheaper for the company per car and gives longer lasting benefits to the driver.
I'm pretty sure the reason they stopped doing this was because of all the issues with people starting charging sessions only to have it interrupted (car messes up, charger messes up) and then getting the complaints from that. I know how pissed off you looked when this happened during a road trip with a mache like a year or so ago when you plugged in the car, went into a golden corral and then the session stopped and were just charged for idle fees instead of actually charging. This concept of being charged for something going wrong is infuriating.
Simple fact is the charging sites need to be bigger like Tesla's so this isn't as big a problem to begin with and their chargers need to stop being unreliable piles of garbage.
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I think a good charging scheme for it would be every 10 minutes past the 10-minute Grace period double the charging rate for every 10 minutes you are still plugged in
Would this be legal?
@@largelarry2126 they are the provider and as long as they put it in their fine print it's perfectly legal for them to do whatever they want if you're using their services they provide
One thing that this says is that maybe charge times are fast enough? If people are leaving their cars for that long? Maybe for people that have more time to charge lower power DCFC or even L2 chargers could be installed at station locations.
Beyond the obvious of having idle charges and escalating those charges based on number of occupied stalls.
0) Offer incentives and promotions to customers who leave the stall promptly, or who leave early when a station is completely full. Discounts and credits on future sessions, free meals at adjacent restaurants on a future visit, even the occasional "this session's free if you leave within 5 minutes", whatever it takes to encourage good behavior.
1) Promote an industry standard to make the recommended level of charge show as "full charge" and everything beyond that should both require confirmation and show the charge level as being in a state of "overcharged". Market both "normal" and "overcharged" ranges, so customers understand the ranges that are suitable for daily use as well as the longer ranges they can get when fully "topped off".
2) Start towing idle vehicles past their grace period when the station is full. A notification like "tow truck will be dispatched in 15 minutes" is likely to get attention. First time you get pulled into a vacant parking space nearby, after that you get towed to a facility and have to pay their fees to get your car back.
3) Implement a system of escalating network-wide penalties for customers that repeatedly overstay past their charging session. Penalties could include things like suspension of complementary & discounted charging privileges, higher fees, presence checks (having to randomly or periodically tap a button on the station to confirm you haven't wandered away from the station), shorter grace periods, session limits, more aggressive towing enforcement, and back of the line status when stations are queued.
4) Implement an in-app and on-kiosk queue. Prioritize customers with good behavior over those with bad behavior in that queue when stations are full.
5) Wherever space permits, have ample numbers of level 2 stations adjacent to the level 3 fast chargers at discounted rates, not only do they serve as a backup (that's probably more likely to work at low temps), but they also allow vehicles that arrive at a very low state of charge to at least keep their climate control running and batteries at a good temperature while waiting for a fast charger, as well as giving customers that don't need a fast charge a better option. And have in-app reminders for the customers that regularly overstay that they can use the slower chargers if they're going to be gone a while.
6) Limit the number of stalls available to complementary charging customers and/or length of charging sessions when stations are full, and set up the software to stop the unplug and replug behavior, or at least charge when it's detected "sorry, you just had your 30 minutes, if you want another, pay up or get back in line and wait". (obviously, this is difficult because it would require renegotiating these agreements with car manufacturers, but it would help.)
7) Demand based pricing based on the number of customers waiting for a stall.
8) Push for state and local regulations to require ample numbers of L1 or L2 chargers at apartment complexes, hotels, and workplaces, so that we cut down on the numbers of people who have no other way to charge.
9) Rethink the way stations are designed altogether? Automatically retracting plugs when the session finishes? Some sort of mechanism to move vehicles out of the way and bring the next vehicle in when complete?
Personally, I'm a fan of Keep It Simple Stupid. You idle you pay. Works for me. You idle too long, you get towed. Press the EASY button.
I think a virtual queue would help too, if you know someone is waiting it will likely move people along.
Such a great idea!
Yeah they should take advantage that you need to use apps to use these stations to implement something like that but they can't even get the charging stuff right, how would they ever implement idle fees and virtual queues?
Or a _real_ queue. The problem is caused by the charging posts being at a parking space - _of course_ people are going to treat it like a parking space. Charging areas are designed all wrong. If charging posts were instead in a well-designed drive-thru lane, where people are physically lining up behind the car that's charging, few people would actually leave their cars for an inappropriate amount of time. They'd go to the bathroom and grab their food, then come back to the car. Nobody wants to confront a line of angry people who have to wait because you're taking advantage.
@@TheRealLaughingGravy Ding, Ding, Ding! Bingo!
happened to me. Bmw lady Karen left for 2 hours at 100% and just didnt Kare
Another possibility for providers is to install some level 2 chargers alongside the dcfc. If people are doing something that takes a long time but also need to charge, it would be an option at a greatly reduced rate.
Never thought about this, but it makes great sense. Maybe the extra penalty charge could be used to build more charging stations?
You should stick/post charging etiquettes (printed) on the charging pods
I wouldn't recommend sticking anything to the charging posts themselves. That's owned by the CPO and most don't allow anything to be posted on them other than their own branding / messages.
I have seen a note from the operator to only charge to 80% or 30 min but people don’t follow it. Idle fees is what I think will help.
@@KyleConner Then how about business cards that you leave on their car with a QR code that links to an Out of Spec video(s) on the topic.
Kyle, can you please make a video on: is your Electrify America charge history showing up on your account? Over the holidays I drove 4,000 miles in My R1T and wanted to make a summery of my charging costs, but EA charge history is not showing up
this started to happen a fee weeks ago. they dont show up anymore
Halo now tech zero evidence. Way super zero ension no oroff
In Norway some charges start the extra fee after 80%. Usually places where there are few chargers.
There was a free 50kW charger by my friend I was visiting in California and over the week I was there, I saw the same ID.4 plugged in but not charging at least 5 times. At least once it was there overnight. Thankfully the way the chargers were placed, you could park on the other side of the charger and unplug the ID.4 to charge, but I don't think everyone is comfortable doing that or even knows you can.
Can’t imagine Macayla not unplugging her VW 😂
Charging Idle Fees is a customer service nightmare
So is people sitting idle in a charging spot
How so?
So, you may have noticed I keep crapping on EA. Let me know if you think it's enough already. I'll stop. You're providing the BEST information on non-Tesla charging in America. Keep it up.
Kyle blessing us his unsolicited wisdom on etiquette