AoE2:DE Cuman Feudal Boom vs Castle Boom
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ค. 2024
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I was very interested to know how the Feudal Town Center would impact the Cuman boom. Is it worth adding an extra TC in Feudal and delaying your Castle time? Or is it best to just fast castle normally and boom with 3TCs straight away? Let's find out!
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Your TH-cam videos have been insanely good lately, with a high production value and really interesting topics. Well done. Keep up the great work!
have to agree, definitely an improvement, both in production value and the level of insight.
+1, earned a sub
@@ZeroEmpires Couldn't you use the extra gold in the Feudal Boom to go earlier to Castle?
It's also nice to have that second TC down on a wood line or gold pile just in case your opponent comes in with some early agression and you can garrison your villagers
Also it provides 5 pop space. Not major but it helps a bit
Key Takeway: having that feudal tc good for better eco/better boom, but not broken.
Exactly. Might not even be any better to some of the best fc booms. Like fc booms from Persians, Vikings, Aztecs, Slavs, Huns, Indians etc. etc.
It’d be interesting to see how the feudal TC affects feudal rushing/ feudal trash wars
Broken or not broken, hard to say, but certainly strong.
However, with everything else that the cuman has to offer, I think they really are broken.
It's just a thought, but isn't one of the biggest advantages of a second tc in feudal making your eco much, much harder to raid? More space covered by arrowfire, more places to garrison, etc. In a real game, isn't the fast castle player going to be making the riskier play if their opponent is aggressive?
Yeah that’s a good point, having an extra tc definitely helps defend against raids, especially if one of your resources is a bit too exposed
well, if your opponent goes for a feudal push, like scouts, yes probably. But if he is also going for a fast castle but going into millitary instead of adding tcs. You will get wiped by Knights / Crossbows while making villagers out of 2 town centers.
Its more like you are fast feudal into boom into castle into boom
than a fast castle.
Thats why he mentioned to start making a second town center while you are advancing to castle age. to have a bit of both worlds.
Totaly agree with this statement, that is the second aspect - beside the "better eco".
The third aspect is where u push ur opponent off their resources with ur second TC. Noone talking about the elephant in the room - it can also be placed FORWARDS! I rushed a couple of people by pushing forward with the fast cav, dropping TCs on their nodes - just sitting their with my forward vills farming opponents resources, spamming 10% faster scouts and making a feudal ram for the GG =P This method to is insane. Not to mention that walling ur base off with the 50% extra hp walls are also really strong (this is a team bonus to - for team games -.-)
@@bjrn-erikulvatne5544 Yeah, I think this point is really important. You can make the second TC in feudal, maybe drop it on their eco, and/or start pushing them if they try to wall and go up, and taking down a TC in feudal is difficult (for any other faction). Even stone walls fall pretty quickly to rams, and if the opponent tries to wall and FC vs Cumans, the Cumans player can likely punish it more easily than any other faction. I'd like to see what happens with Cumans on arena with a TC drop/Trush with rams and archers/spears (maybe even men-at-arms). Normal fast castle monk/siege might not be an option against them.
Even on Arabia, just the access to rams is a pretty big deal, because it means you can push your opponent's TC and towers early with less risk, and in larger fights in a more committed feudal age, the arrows they soak from enemy archers will add up pretty quickly.
The biggest advantage of it is likely going to be in games with longer feudal ages, which are common on the more open maps like Arabia.
Honestly think this goes without saying, which is why he didn't say it.
This was pretty much the number one complaint of those claiming it was OP in beta / on release.
The new civs look awesome! but a little bit broken.
I think they are broken, but they are also awesome!
Too awesome lol
Yeah they a bit too good but also pretty cool. Some balancing will be needed but I do like the new units
I think cumans are pretty broken as everything is so nice, same with lithuanians except they dont get steppe lancers and their unique unit isnt a counter to everything. But are bulgarians and tatars that strong? I thought they are in the "good"-category rather than "toptier"
@@ZeroEmpires yeah, but the devs are probably going to balance them when a few weeks or months passes, seeing that the new civs are being abused by some players.
Don’t forgot the hiding bonus of extra defense the town center get u being able to hide villagers helps sometimes
thanks for answering that question, i was suspecting it to be like you found it to, its still really nice to have it confirmed.
Man I’m happy with your content lately! The analytical stuff reminds me of spirit with your own style and it’s excellent. Keep up the great work
ok boomer
I'm 26 man!
ZeroEmpires but you were clearly booming which would make you a boomer 11
@@frederikfgyyjj9483 ok boomer
@@ZeroEmpires Congratulations, you managed to be a boomer and a millennial at the same time.
26? Wtf! I'm almost there (in a few months) and I haven't done anything with my life 11
Loving your high quality videos my dude. Keep it going
I think you and spirit should work together! You are longer in the scene and I really loved your game commentaries for many years (in the moment I am not that active anymore, but still check in from time to time). You started and continued so much in this scene! How comes I never heard you really acknowledging (sorry, not nativ english wirter xD) spirits work? I have the feeling that you feel somehow contested by him, but you are not all!
Science is best when done by different people: More perspectives and more valid information in the end overall. More discussion. So I propone, that you also produce in this genre now (this is by far not your first video of that kind, i know), but in the moment I find, that spirit is waymore experiencend in this kind of work, and you could maybe work together or learn from him - or directly work with his results or something, it can be done completly without competition, but working for the same goals: Creating knwonledge and entertainment around aoe2.
Just a comment.
To the topic: I'd include into the discusion, that an additional tc can secure important resources spots from harrasment in the feudal time: You did not mention this at all.
Also Maybe it is rahter your aim to rush with a certain unit choice: In which scenario do you have, say 20 archers or 20 knights our first?
There is some stuff not covered, so to say not included in your study yet. But I agree, that probably in most situations it will come in handy to built the second tc while advancing to castle.
Finally the presenting of your results is really good, means it is obvouis, that you really master video editing. I really acknowledge that, communicating results is a very important part of science.
Have a good day Zero, I hear you in another video :)
Thank for doing stuff like this. I love cumans for a fuedal boom to interrupt a FC in a 1v1. But boom it into castle for anything else.
Spirit would be so proud. Good stuff Zack. keep em coming ;)
Really good and interesting video, thank you!
This needs to be looked at again because the time to build the tc has been drastically changed
-Feudal age slinging (sending all your resources to one or two allies as you gather them) has now been totally boosted with Cumans.
-Double douche (deleting your original TC and making one next to your enemy's -now double) is now on the cards by trying and cripple 2 enemies by crippling one ally.
PS: Awesome video and much expected one! my regards from Venezuela!.
damn, been wondering the same. thanks dude
also, huns are probably my best boom civ since i'm too much of an noob to keep up with houses
Tip for that, just dedicate a single villager to build houses non-stop during castle. Whenever they go idle get them back to house building
@@ZeroEmpires a reliable carpenter? now that's worth 50 food
Yes...yes i can! ZeroEmpires for president!
I think the thing about an extra TC isnt just the economic payoff, but the fact that in feudal you can protect your villagers much more easily. In Feudal its impossible to take a TC down, which means the only real safe zone are the farmers around it, not to mention villagers have to walk a longer distance to get safe and you can have garrisoned 15 vills. You can get raid in the woodline or your mining camps with towers, archers, scouts, forcing you to respond with towers which cost a lot of stone of keep your military at home to defend.
Having 2 TC means you can easily put it next to other resources, which automatically denies any chance of a raid or counter attack till castle Age, it reduces your idle time since vills walk less to garrison, you dont have to care about min range unlike towers, and you can protect 30 vills at once. You can even build military building fowards since theres no reason to protect your base. And since in 80-90% of Arabia 1vs1 games the winner is decided on who can make the most damage during feudal means Cumans will have always the upperhand on early castle age. They can even go up with 0 military and they will still be ahead of their opponents in feudal.
So the conclusion for me at least is they have to be nerfed. A solution would be give the extra TC like some kind of nerf. For example: make it more expensive, remove the option of research wheelbarrow, reduce his workrate, reduce max garrison cap, reduce his HP. And when you reach Castle Age this TC starts having the same stats as any regular TC
you also could take the stone away they get at the start.
So you have to waste villager work time to mine stone
Very nice! Have been wondering about this myself.
I would like to see the test done with deer too. When i do full cuman boom i go straight to take deers and boar after the second sheep and delay berries untill i click up. Then i can reach feudal with 19 pop without having idle tc, thereby getting up the second tc almost a minut earlier. My theory would be that using deer would help the fast feudal boom more than fc but i dont know? :)
This is assuming you use the second TC to constantly produce vills, using it to keep 1 TC production going while you upgrade loom wheel barrow and castle age might be more effective if the game turns into an extended feudal fight you can squeeze out some extra vills and use the TC to cover resources. I think we’ll see creative use of the extra TC like as part of a tower rush too. It will take time.
Besides tc doesn't need university improvement to defend from melee attacks, so are better than towers
Appreciate this testing - it show that feudal boom isolated does bring extra resources. The method you use are very good and scientific. WP Zero!
It have to be said though that there are more benefits to the feudal TC then just the "eco" advantage. Its first and foremost the fact that its even an "option" to do so that makes cumans incredible hard to predict or expect strategically what they are doing. If the enemy dont push you, or dont send agression - you can put down that extra TC at fudual and get an advantage. Not only can it be used deffensivly for extra villager protection other civs cant have in fudual age, but you can actually use the extra TC agressive aswell, placing it forwarded on ur opponent pushing them off a gold/stone/woodline. U can still train villagers and just send them home and collect resources in fudual age with this method. To add on the whole Cuman OP thing, it is also is all their bonuses combined that makes them so insane. 10% cav speed in fudual, all but 1 eco upgrade, helbs-champs-hussar-pala-step lancer-elite skirms-Siege Ram-Siege Onager, extra 50% hp to wood walls, and even the ability to ram ur opponent in feudal if he get to greedy for an early gg. These are all in combanation incredible strong and makes Cumans have little to no counters. You dont even have to use the dubble TC at times, just do single TC and use ur fast cav for good early fudual push and add a ram or 2. If they expect a second TC, and they get a rush in their face instead its an early game GG again. Its just the combination of possibility atm that makes cuman a god tier civ, above all others - and it needs to be adressed. Its not neccersly "OP" - but it sure as hell is very strong, and arguably better then the rest - and a a nerf is necessary and wondering why this is allready beeing delayed for so long :(
And what about fast castling and building your second tc while on your way to castle age?
Another idea to pht on the dircord vote:
In wich civ are paladins/champions/crossbows/cavalry archers a better choice then their unique unit counterpart? I remembered thia question when playing cuman. Their the tech for cavalry archer production but they also have the chipchak... So what's the point beyond the easy mass?
Zak can you please make a video about the changes of the hotkeys and new setting features
I would like to see a compariosn to civ with an early eco bonus (like Chinese with 3 more villager, Persian with faster Town Center, Huns without Houses, Slavs with their faster Farmers ...)
Are we gonna get some multiplayer videos in the future?
What about doing a FC but building your second tc 1 minute before you click up to castle, that way you do get the extra villiagrs while clicking up and you will have your third tc up faster?
From just an eco perspective, having 2 TC in feudal is reasonable in a vacuum. However, the 2 TCs in feudals is not just a eco boost, it's a huge defensive boost in feudal age. being able to secure a resource and protect up to 15 extra villages is game changing. Add in the other bonuses from cumans, and they become OP.
Fast castle strategies are vulnerable to rushes. With producing 2 tcs early, you protect more of your villagers and make them less prone to feudal age rushes from your opponent (not to mention the beefier palisade walls help with that as well. Also, you can produce scouts and rams early and wreak havoc. Then, in castle age, you can produce kipchaks and hit and run literally any unit! The faster speed also allows you to raid more effectively. I don't think there's any civ more dominant in feudal and early/mid castle age, where most of the games are decided. I'm expecting that the cumans will get nerfed, probably the kipchak and the cavalry speed specifically so that the flavor of the civ stays intact.
Edit: it's a bug from UI scale (ty Geli2472) 120% seems to be max UI scale you can choose if you want to avoid it, not sure though.
when i select a group of people, how can i select a single one of them?
in HD i could ctrl click to remove, or click 1 to get it selected, but i can't do it in DE :(
don't know where else to ask
Select a single unit by just clicking on it. To add units to a selection hold shift to add eco units and hold crontrol to add military units
@@ZeroEmpires it's sometimes hard to get the guy who is injured from luring the boar whenever i forget to ctrl 3 him. Was hoping i could just mark all my vills under TC and click on the injured guy the same way i did in HD.
thank you for awnsering
phen It might have to do with your UI scale
@@CB-qk2wv yes that was the problem, thank you very much, finally i can click the guys lol, was wondering why they would remove this, but just a bug i guess. love u
Reminds me of the guy who wanted to show the strength of Mongols on yucatan. He then said, I play huns so I don´t get housed. After an hour, he said "I expected more out of the mongol bonus".
Missed opportunity using the castle age tc in the thumbnail
Okay boo...
Just kidding I love you Zak!
Couldn't you use the extra gold and go to castle earlier? In the Feudal boom?
I'd say the later castle timing is gonna be the biggest factor in making this not broken in a real game. I think it's better to go for a smaller or later boom in feudal so the castle timing is still okay.
192 likes and no dislike. Impressive! 😉
Plz make a video on night rush at first castle with AoE2 DE edition extreme AI
How does this compare to saracen fast castle?
The like for like is useful but a better comparison is a strong castle boom civ vs a Cuban feudal boom. How about that next?
3rd option: build 2nd tc on way to castle age.
Handcart looks like a gold dragon head in the HD/CD edition
Wouldn't the 2nd TC be really strong in cases where you are locked into a feudal war? You get twice the villager production as your opponent without the entrance fee and idle time that comes with going to the castle age. Additionally, it allows you to secure something risky to take, like a forward gold. The longer you can keep your opponent in the feudal age, the greater the benefit will become.
Spirit of the Law Jr.
Since update 34055 in December 17, 2019, the time to construct a Feudal Age Town Center increased from 225 to 270 seconds. It's a pity this video was produced one month before the nerf.
Wonder what are the results now.
Hello, Spirit of the Zero here
why not both? 27, 28 vills on dark age, then build a TC on feudal and FC
This is what Viper said he thought would be the meta on this
Am I the only one missing information WHEN he drops his TCs for FC? He could start building the second TC the second he reaches feudal even for FC and should roughly click up when the tc is finished giving a head start over a generic civ's boom.
You and to a fast castle AND have 275 wood for a new TC, otherwise it’s not a fast castle any more. In an FC the earliest you’ll have the wood for the second TC is half way to the castle age
@@ZeroEmpires thank you for your response, Zak! But I disagree. There are instances, where an FC on arena provides enough wood for 4 tcs once in castle (with deer, which is not what you aimed for//nevertheless I expect it to be possible without deer aswell). It might not be 26/28 vils as you did in the video, but I am sure that its at least possible for 27. Might actually try it later myself...
@@ZeroEmpires and let me say that I agree with the rest: Good to have you and your channel back with such high quality :-)
Are we Cuman,
Or are we dancer?
Am I missing something? In what situations would adding a second TC in feudal not be the play to make?
Ok, maybe if we compare the ressources when the tc is brand new, but come on, you know you have 30 minutes, you know any tc placed before the 25 minute mark is worth it, evermore so the earlier they were built!
Well actually it’s not that obvious. Adding a second TC in feudal means that your castle age time is delayed by 5 minutes. That’s 5 mins where you have 2 TCs but the fast castle player has 3 TCs.
@@ZeroEmpires Fair enough. Which means I did miss something, since this is clearly stated in the video...
I believe DE should adopt the dota approach when it comes to balancing. Wait for long term stats then make very small adjustments. Rinse and repeat until you get the desired result.
Maybe, but no idea how much this studio Will make support this Game
Where are you
zero goes science!
Oi by the way: Dark Dinner has improved by 1% :)
but is it reproducible ? Why is n=1 ZeroEmpires ?
It's easy to say "run more tests;" it's what I often tell my students :-) But time is finite. In this case, he ran 3 TC, and then 4 TC. His comments were it felt similar, and in both cases the extra resources from the 4th TC were comparable. That suggests he's zeroed in on the right result. Would you have been happier with:
1. Running twice with 3 TCs in both conditions, vs.
2. What he did: once with 3 TCs and once with 4 TCs?
Time is finite, so I'm not giving a third choice of "twice with 3 TCs and twice with 4 TCs." Sure, that would be better, but he has other things to do with his time.
To be clear, you can make an argument for #1 over #2, although I believe his methodology was better with slightly different tests and consistent results. So I'm happy he went with #2.
I do think new civs are cool but they are all too strong (except tartars who are ok), Aoe2 should be buffing civs like the Vietnamese who in real life are quite strong but in game are super under powered or maybe rework the Magyars as they dont have very good cavalry bonuses (a discount on the useless hussar)
Age of empires needs more graphs
Your data is good but you should compare when going to feudal with same pop (26). Going to fedual with just 21. You want to get that 3rd tc as soon as possible also. You can go up in 24-25 vils to feudal, start going to castle after 2 vils, and start you 2nd tc while making those 2 vils.
U failed on this one i'm afraid its about how many villagers can u get as soon as possible..
So while a regular experienced player will be able to comfortably go 21pop to feudal once there he will put as many vils as he can to construct that 2nd tc without being afraid of stalling hes 2xTC boom due to food shortages so that is at the very least 10vilagers(as opposed to the 5u show building it) to this u need to take into account the need for less initial wood if don't use a 2nd lumber camp and instead collect stragglers till u are close to hitting feudal...
Further to the point is essential to rush up that second tc as every 25sec u shave of that time is an extra villager coming in to add to the work force sooner...
Damn, this civ is so out of place. As if the nomadic cavalry civs that we had weren't enough already...
I think we need a civ that specialize in infantry. I want to see infantry in feudal/castle.
@@3inchMorningwood goths, vikings, bulgarians (if are those with the free upgrade bonus), etc...
Cooman video on no nut november smh
Coomer vs coomer
First comment!
Here, have a cookie!
9/10 boomers choose cumans
Ok boomer
Ok, Boomer
No actual fighting or menace of fighting changes the game massively and denatures this test too much. Things like revealed and the same map twice is not realistic as well.
Two iterative games on a same map have neither statistical nor research value there should be many more tests on different maps by dozens of different players we could have a solid coherent result with three or four hundred games of each.
For pure economics, in about 70 wonder rush games could yield some interesting results.
Ok Boomer
ok boomer
ok boomer
ok boomer