Is it weird that I enjoy watching our discussions just as much as I enjoy having them in the first place? Thanks so much, A.P., for the opportunity to discuss this book and deepen both my understanding and my appreciation for it. Somehow, we also manage to have a lot of fun too!
Hi Philip, as I keep saying, these are always so much fun to do with you. Although, I will promise to let you talk more. I *may* have gotten a little carried away in this one. Thank you so much for having these discussions with me.
these conversations you have are the most pleasant and enjoyable ones. The combination of easygoing, light tone, laughter, relaxed attitude + badass analysis is quite special! I can't wait to see you both in the next one :)
Ah, the introduction of my favorite character, Trull Sengar. Although I believe he always needs a hug, the award for character that most needs a hug will remain Toc the Younger.
"I have tolerated the deceitful and the malicious for long enough. My sword shall now answer them" Good job boys always a pleasure watching your boyish enthusiasm shine on the Malazan series.......
Since I finally decided, after two previously unsuccessful attempts, to read The Gardens of the Moon, I also decided to read the 10 books in the saga in a row, without pauses or stops along the way or breaks to read other things until the entire saga is finished... I have to say that one of the extra incentives that I have found to continue non-stop are these spoiler talks. While reading the novels I sometimes find myself thinking "Wow, I can't wait to see what Philip Chase and the AP have to say about this novel." So thank you once again, because you give an extra richness (if that was possible) to the experience of reading the Malaz saga. So go ahead with "Midnight Tides", I can't wait to hear your spoiler talk.
Thank you, a great discussion as always! I think there is a connection between Trull's metaphor of uncontrollable fire and the characters who choose to follow the Crippled God (or are deceived by him). The fire is not just the will to conquer, it's also the desire of revenge, the resentment, when one wants to perpetuate suffering and inflict more suffering to avenge their own torment. The Whirlwind Goddess, Silgar, Bidithal, Kallor are all driven by this desire. While characters like Trull, having suffered, don't wish for others to suffer. And Karsa goes from being in a revenge cycle to seeing a way out.
Speaking of Itkovian, from the last book, I enjoyed his story, and it was also used to introduce the various ‘offices’ that people can hold in these various ‘houses’ in the deck of dragons. Mortal Sword, Destriant, etc And then in this book we see Heboric, for example, being given that title I do feel like this books are getting somewhat easier for me to follow, as I get deeper into the series. Probably part getting used to the style, and part learning the various aspects of the world.
Great conversation. In terms of Felisin, she is also slowly ripped away from the reader by not getting her POV and her absence from the scenes until her very end.
The real-life-inspired pairing was Pearl and Lostara?I love that!! I loved every pairing in the book, and those two were fantastic. I had fun reading the hate-to-love trope in Malazan! Your theory on how Sorry got the name Sorry is brilliant. I never thought of that! The conversation between Cotillian and Apsalar was one of my favorite moments. I loved House of Chains from beginning to end. In fact, there was one chapter I thought I didn't care for, and then I reread it and realized I was wrong: I loved it. This discussion was fabulous! I would pay to take a class on Malazan and discuss and explore every book with you two.
Hi Johanna, great to hear from you. I am glad that you enjoyed the video. A semester class on Malazan would be a lot of reading. Even I was never that cruel to students.
@@ACriticalDragon True, I would fail as I can barely read one Malazan book in a month. Some might succeed though. The Contradictorian is reportedly reading this series in four weeks. He read Gardens of the Moon in 2 days. Maybe if I could read that fast...
I enjoy these chats more than anything else after each malazan book , it just deepens the experience and makes you appreciate it more , sometimes i wish it was 10 hours long, would never get bored 🤣
And I agree about Karsa. He is so well written. He is a product of his culture and environment, and was never given space to think another way. His development when is exposed to other cultures and people is great to see in this book. Can’t wait to see more
I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion. Karsa is a surprisingly complex character that invites introspection and contemplation. The nuances to his arc are really engaging. Thanks for watching.
@@ACriticalDragon No problem man you have some of the highest quality stuff I’ve seen on TH-cam. Very deep reader who notices and discusses stuff I would never have noticed. So hyped for my re read. Watching your analyses after I finish the book is always a treat. Keep up the great stuff man.
Hi DJ, I am glad that you enjoyed it. Chatting with Philip is a lot of fun, we have a great time, and I get to think about different aspects of the books as we chat. I am quite pleased that so many people seem to enjoy watching us goof around.
@@ACriticalDragon Don't undersell yourselves - these informal discussions hold immense value to readers looking to "debrief" upon completion of a book. I particularly enjoy the prologue analyses for the enlightenment they bring. Carry on "goofing around", I guess ! :)
I agree with everything you both said about Karsa. It's what makes him such a great character, he has been manipulated his whole life, and shows some great character growth over the series. I also loved the scene with the Teblor ladies, teaching him a lesson.
Hi Paul, Karsa is certainly a very vividly drawn character who adds a lot of moral complexity directly into the narrative. As well as making us think about what compassion, forgiveness, and empathy mean, both abstractly, but also in practice, he also provides some great action set pieces... it is not all about philosophising. :)
I don't know about the word manipulated... He has simply been growing up in a different working society. He was not taught or raised different than all the others (or if he was, then from his father, which would rather be a 'good' influence) and that is the point. The Teblor society works that way. Karsa sees every child (essentially us humans) not as being manipulated, but raised with customs and beliefs typical of our surrounding. When he left his surroundings that is what he learnt I think. That loss of innocence is what opened him to evolution I think....
Hi Damian, but the 'Teblor Gods' specifically choose Karsa and influence him. It is referenced explicitly multiple times. If external pressure to change a person's path and decisions without that person's knowledge or consent and all for the benefit of the influencer is not manipulation then how do we describe it?
@@ACriticalDragon true. I maybe thought Paul was referring to another kind of 'manipulation'. My misinterpretation on my part probably :) Well here for learning aren't we (maybe also because I commented before viewing the entire video...)
I don't like Karsa as a person , but at least for me, the character works so, so well. The character reminds me a bit of a conversation in the movie Troy between Achilles and Briseis, one she ends with : " I thought you were a dumb brute. I could have forgiven a dumb brute" On the other hand : His arc has so many gems hidden in there. Without going all the way down I'll quote one of my favorites. Spoilery spoilers up to book 6: [Karsa]He bared his teeth. 'One day I will return to my people. And I will shatter all that they believe. And I will say to my father, "Forgive me. You were right to disbelieve. You were right to despise the laws that chained us." And to my grandfather, I shall say nothing at all.'
He is a brilliantly realised and surprisingly complex character, and the depth behind his story and arc can really catch you by surprise when you start to examine it.
Just finished House of Chains for the first time. Really connected with this book on many emotional levels. Ive come to realize that this series requires real effort on the readers part, but it's completely worth it because of how rewarding it is. Can't wait to continue the series. I've been waiting to watch this discussion for a long while now. Brilliant job, guys!
First time reader, I'm well into Midnight Gates. But, I love to go back and listen to you guys speak about things that I might have missed and just the literary value of Erikson's writing. It is definitely getting better and I can grasp the weaves between the stories in building this massive world by joining in and listening to you! These types of things would be sorely missed in the pre-Book Tube era, but, as we can see, you can get a grasp on all of this by persistence and love of literature in general.
Hi Scott, thanks for watching, and I hope that you are enjoying the books. I sincerely hope that the discussions that Philip and I have add to people's enjoyment of the books.
Because of COVID I got to read some incredible stuff. I read the Wheel of Time first - good. But, Malazan is blowing me away. Just a different level of reading and thinking experience.
@@scottbrown5235 oddly enough, I read the complete Wheel of Time last year as well... Most of it was a reread, but I hadn't read the Sanderson conclusions.
@@ACriticalDragon It was good, I really liked it. It's off the bucket list. But, Malazan is just so much better in my opinion. More to think about even when you are not reading it. Truly magnificent. Some time later you can tell me whether the Ian books are worth reading. For now, I'm going 1-10 (I've got the Omnibus).
Grub and the thighbone. Makes for an awesosme image. Its the beginning of the Bonehunters for me. And I love how Erickson started this transformation long before the book of the same title.
Engrossing, A.P. Another winner by the Doughty Duo! I finished the whole series four days ago, and felt impelled to pick up GotM again, just to get that veteran feeling of seeing all the missed info, foreshadowing and hints... And yes, they are all there. Quite a series!
Hi Johan, congratulations on finishing the series. I hope that you enjoyed it. I am greatly enjoying my reread with Philip, but never forget, there are loads of great books out there, so don't feel that you have to launch right back in. But I have to say that rereading the series is incredibly rewarding.
@@ACriticalDragon Literature is an ocean. Still, I will re-read GotM just for the thrill of it, and then leave those ten big books to themselves for a while, after eight months of dogged and rewarding devotion...
Thanks to you both for this one, I think this is my favourite spoiler discussion yet :) I can't pick a favourite book still, but this one is up there Karsa and his development were such a standout focal point for me in HoC. The way the writing contrasts between slavery, torture and despair with some of the funniest moment in the series I've read so far (Joyful union) and the relationship between Tool and Trull is just brilliant! Looking forward to the next video :D
Hi Callum, thanks for watching. I love reading the series and have never really put a lot of thought into ranking the books. I tend to treat each one as separate and enjoy what is there.
Love loading up these videos as I finish each book. Glad to have you gentlemen on the Malazan journey with me! The ending of Felisin's story was heartbreaking. Anybody who has experienced sibling-related strife must surely be moved by such a story.
Hi J D, I am glad that you enjoyed it. Apparently there are some that don't like the end of House of Chains, but I enjoyed it and thought that it had a great emotional weight.
I'm on my second reading and I love listening to you two, both the spoiler free and spoiler rich videos, before I start a new book. It helps me to unveil so many layers and details I didn't even notice the first time. However, don't ever think your viewers fall asleep listening to you! I actually just watched your video to keep myself awake at work 😃 also, thank you both tor speaking so clearly and slowly, non native English speakers deeply appreciate that!
One of my favorite things to do after finishing these books is listening to you guys talk about it! I love all the insights just make me appreciate these great books even more! Thanks A.P. and Philip! You guys are awesome!
Another brilliant chat gents! My eternal thanks to both of you. And onwards I go on the journey. I wanna know more about this Trull fella - he hasn't won me over fully yet
Thank you very much for letting us in on your conversations. It’s unusual for a conversation about a book to deepen my appreciation of it… which may represent a failing of mine. But anyhow yours do just that! I’ve only just read the house of chains. These convos help me process the experience.
On my first read, I did not sit and consider things too much. Karsa was a fascinating character, beacon of hope, great evolution, great arc, etc. The second read though, I realized I don't like him. He's not a good person. He is very well written, but not a good person at all, at least not to me. Great analogy with the Bene Gesserit! As rough as this may sound, to me he will always be a rapist. But I understand his perspective, and he did change, he evolved, he learned, which is great. He is a very complex character. And oh, dear Philip, Chase, there is no Karsa in you ! :))) Pearl & Lostara Yil having conversations from SE's life is just adorable. Trull crying for Onrack is a very, very moving moment. This was a very valuable and enjoyable video, than you both very, very much! ❤️ ❤️
Rox, always a pleasure to hear from you. And that is a perfectly reasonable and understandable reaction to Karsa. (Also I love how you mention there is no Karsa in Philip but are suspiciously silent about there being a Karsa in me :P) I hope that you have a fantastic weekend.
@@ACriticalDragon hahahah we were watching Christine Vallestad's new video, so I had to wait and then go back to your video and see if I failed noticing something at the moment Philip mentioned that he reflected about there being a little Karsa in him. My bad for not paying attention - I don't think there is any Karsa in you either, A.P. :) You both are these great, highly educated people, I fail to see any trace of Karsa here :) I wish you a lovely weekend, stay safe! :)
@@RoxanaMagdaD Christine is doing some brilliant analysis. She is showing what careful attention to the text can reveal. They are really fantastic videos.
@@ACriticalDragon I totally agree! All your videos (and by that I mean you, Philip, Christine) are extraordinarily valuable because of your knowledge and experience as editors and lecturers. Of course, all book tubers bring their own values over, and the fact that there is so much variety, such varied perspectives is only doing the community a great favor, as we can learn from all of you. Thank you so much for everything you do, and please don't stop :)
A. P, I admit that I am thinking somewhat similiarly about this slog thing I hear recently, as to me these books are some of the finest work I have ever read to combine such length without becoming slogs, in order to tell their stories. The way they are constructed gives value to almost every scene inherently, in how they add to the conclusions whether minor or major. But taste does differ so maybe it is as simple as that. Anyway, love listening to these talks as much as you two seem to enjoy doing them!
Hi Violet, thank you for watching and the thoughtful comment. You are absolutely right that tastes are individual, but it seems (and this could very well be a misapprehension on my part) that there is an increasing expectation that books just tell a story, and that it should be told in a certain way. The amazing variety of narrative techniques, styles of narrative, approaches to writing, variances in structures, and the complexity of literary devices seems to be increasingly ignored in favour of a direct story told in a linear, economical chronology. Literature of all types goes through phases and evolutions, but this consumerist approach to story, the privileging of what happens over how, is a modern trend that saddens me. Hopefully I am wrong, but I get a sense that this trend will continue for quite some time.
@@ACriticalDragon I think you hit the nail on the head with this one! It does feel like a consumerist approach to reading, as though some people forget that literature is art first and a product second. I have noticed how people go into books with set expectations and even if said books are great works, if their expectations are not met, they get annoyed or impatient or project the disappointment onto the book, as though that reflects its quality. And I have to blame marketing strategies and the publishing world’s fetish with genres. It sets up the average reader to expect formulas and recipes rather than unique voices telling a story in their own way. Almost like not knowing in advance where the story is going and how it will travel that journey is a bad thing.
@@irinaj8716 And we also see this with trailers and new series and films. Instead of reacting to what is there, there is almost the reaction of 'this is not what I was expecting therefore it is bad'. My frustration with modern film trailers and promotional material is that it starts earlier and earlier, and reveals more and more. A lot of new films and series have so much given away before we even get to watch them. Then we have the added factor that this approach to narrative is being imposed on books and literature. It is a strange time to be reading.
You are very welcome, Sa Jeeuh. I am glad that you enjoyed it. I hope that Philip and I didn't make too many mistakes. Thank you for watching and commenting. It is much appreciated.
As always, what a delight to hear both of your thoughts on such a special book. House of chains surprised me in so many ways, and will forever be one my most special Malazan books. The first part with Karsa is just a masterpiece. Thank you for these videos, really enjoy them!
Hi Jay, I am very sorry that your comments keep getting hidden. I am very glad that you are enjoying the chats Philip and I are having. It is always good to hear from you, and I enjoyed your mid-malazan video. Have a great weekend.
One of my favourite things to do is just journey through the book, trying to pick up on all those small hints and bits of puzzle that Erikson sprinkles through the narrative. I too get annoyed when people call the first 3 quarters of his books “a slog”, because it’s not a slog. It’s build up. You can’t just start with the roof of a house, you have to build the foundation first and each individual floor. And the joy for me is in part trying to guess the final architecture of the house from all those disparate elements. And the best part is that, while you can pick up on most elements and piece them together before the final convergence, he will always surprise you in some way with how he resolves the conflicts. The Malazan books are a treasure trove.
Hi Irina, thank you for watching and leaving the comments. I do appreciate the feedback. It is nice to know that I am not completely wrong all the time.
I have just finished reading House of chains, and one of the first things I do, is watch your spoiler view videos love your content and thoughts. Until the next time happy reading midnight tides is calling me.
@@ACriticalDragon definitely love your content, and loving the journey thank you for you passion and insight, that comes across in these brilliant videos. Happy reading.
I thought the scorpion fight was kind of a weird digression with a fun twist, but then when I finished the book I realized it was foreshadowing the entire final "battle" with the 14th Army also secretly being two entities. Brilliant stuff. Loved the talk!
People always seem to doubt me when I say that Erikson is a tricksy author who sneaks in subtext, foreshadowing, and complex imagery without you realising it.
Yet another fantastic and illuminating conversation. This book is probably the one I am most looking forward to on my reread. It really wasn’t until the next book, specifically chapter 9, that the greater theme of the series finally took hold and I began to look at it differently. That lack of understanding really made House of Chains difficult for me, and I nearly put the series down. This time around I think it will be quite the different experience. Can’t wait for next month’s video!
It is one of the great joys of the series that you can read the books multiple times and see different strands and themes emerge each time. I am very glad that you enjoyed the discussion. Philip is fantastic to discuss these books with.
@@ACriticalDragon Philipis brilliant. What he brings to every conversation he is in, from the viewpoints and analysis to his infectious joyful demeanor, is truly something else.
I love this. Amazing amazing analysis to an amazing amazing book. There are about a dozen others things that would have also been worth gushing about. Really loved this entry to the series.
Just finished HoC yesterday and it was amazing! Malazan may have become my new favourite series. Tavore, Trull and Karsa are all contenders for favourite character. I was so invested in this book (due to my excitement to start MT) that I read the final 520 pages in one day. New record for me. Love your analyses and I’m excited to get to MT and tBH. Trying to stay ahead of ur discussions so I can watch em not long after I finish each entry. Boy am I excited to start a re read
520 pages in a day??? Did you inhale the pages? 😉 There are times that I want to devour a book, but I have found that I generally enjoy a book more if I take my time. If I have a deadline then that is a different story, that is intense, focused reading. But for pleasure I greatly enjoy lingering on paragraphs or rereading scenes as I read through. I am so glad that you enjoyed the book.
@@ACriticalDragon I’m the same with you in that I normally like reading slower, but I realised that this is 100% a re read series, and as many literary professors have told me you should focus on these minute details etc on a second reading. Definitely going to slow down with MT and onwards. Thanks for the response, keep up the great work
Listening to you guys has giving me a whole new perspective on the emphasis of "chains" and their prevalence to the story line. I would really love to listen to you two discuss the novels Book of the New Sun, Book of the Long Sun, and Book of the Short Sun by Gene Wolf. Your insights and the way you both break down a narrative, it would be fascinating.
Awesome discussion as always. For me personally, I found Karsa’s chapters hard to read, especially since I’m biased by our age of mass shootings. I could only picture the New Zealand mosque shooter from a couple years ago when I picture him as a character (the gleeful mass murderer aspect of it). It does raise good questions about at what point is redemption even possible or desirable as opposed to justice. I found myself thinking that for people like Karsa, I’d rather see justice. And then I found myself thinking about my reaction to the redemption of the Pannion Seer, and how I cheered on when Paran and Quick Ben gave him his absolution. Even though the Seer had committed even more evil acts than Karsa (and certainly on a much larger scale). It definitely made me question why I felt that way. I do think at the end of the day that the Seer was a horribly tortured and tragic figure, whereas Karsa had no such excuse. Or, maybe I’m just being a hypocrite, impossible to know. And as a side note, the whole arc of Trull and Onrack was brilliant. I’m reading Midnight Tides now and I almost wish I had that connection with Trull that I am getting from reading MT when I first read HoC - it will make a re-read of HoC more powerful.
Hi, thank you for the comments. As to Karsa v Pannion... Pannion is a product of an Imass acting in a way that causes him to be tortured. An artificial intrusion into the natural order of things. For Karsa we know that Icarium intervened and set up a new social structure based on tribal competition in order to 'strengthen' their blood. Institutional raiding with the result that only the greatest warriors/raiders would breed. A generational breeding programme that specifically promotes violence, physical prowess, and enhances those traits. Then the Teblor are interfered with again by a group of T'lan Imass who instiutue new rituals in order to create a champion. This further changes Teblor culture. Both in the case of Pannion and Karsa, there are external manipulations. But in Pannion's case it is a direct torture, no matter how well intentioned. Whereas in Karsa's case it is indirect in that a social structure has been created that normalises the behaviour. So it can be easier to understand and forgive a direct victim, but harder to understand or forgive the victim of a dangerous ideology and social/moral paradigm. What I find interesting is that once Karsa leaves the isolationist limits of the Teblor society and is exposed to other cultural norms he is capable of reevaluating his own behaviour and practice. That doesn't forgive him, but it places a new context around his actions.
@@ACriticalDragon That’s a great way of putting it, and makes total sense as to why our reactions to the two are different. And as you guys mentioned too, the fact of us seeing Karsa commit these crimes in person creates a visceral reaction and biases us, in a way.
I love this conversation! I want to do a video chat about how Karsa Orlong has helped me be a better human. Lol But I haven't finished the series yet (just finished Reaper's Gale) and don't want to jump the gun! Thanks Philip and AP for these videos!
One of the things I like about Erikson's characters is that while I may never like some of them, they are still "human," making them interesting and sometimes relatable. It adds so much more realism and richness to the story because you realize that everybody has a story. You don't have to agree or even empathize with someone to understand motives and see the humanity of someone who really is a bit of a monster. And that, in some way that I can't quite fully express yet, makes me feel a bit more empathy to my fellow man and want to understand them better. We don't live in a pristine world where it's always easy to take the high road or make great decisions. Of course, some people really do just wake up and choose violence, as the meme goes. I don't think our literature should pretend otherwise and I really like how Erikson portrays this without glorifying anyone's actions.
I'd love to hear your guys thoughts on the depiction of Rake through the view of Andarist and his use of the sword Grief/Vengeance in House of Chains. Especially in the compared to the first half of the Midnight Tides prologue, where the gods have to invene in the wake of what happens there, compared to his apparent apathy of what has been happening on Drift Avalii (if he was even aware).
@@ACriticalDragon I loved the discussion on Karsa. The way Erikson had me thinking about him from where he starts to where he ends was night and day. My favorite character growth in the series.
Karsa is a very interesting character and the questions he raises about moral relativism, education and indoctrination, the advantages and disadvantages of 'civilisation'... a wonderful literary creation that challenges a lot of assumptions.
Oh, Tavore. I think, all things said and done, she is my favorite character in the series. Her character arc is so well constructed even without a POV in this book. Whenever she is in the text I feel like I'm one of the Bonehunters trying to figure her out in the same way a child tries to figure out his parents. There is a similar awe and mystery and as a result of that energy spent to try and know her the relationship with her character grows ever tighter and the empathetic connection intensifies.
Hi Gabriel, thank you for watching and for the very insightful comment. I think that you have articulated exactly the effect that Erikson was going for with Tavore.
I just finished House of Chains about an hour ago. Karsa definitely gave me Conan vibes. The final confrontation between Felesin and Tavore was heart wrenching. I enjoyed this book, but I would say Memories of Ice is still my favorite so far, this being my very first read through.
The Karsa discussion covered a lot of the stuff I had in mind when I commented on the Kallor-Elder Gods Prologue. (The faith thing will come later, but that's the only thing that's missing thematically). Honestly I think I enjoy the prologues more than the convergences. Also: Almost Tehol Beddict time;)
Hi Lukas, but the prologues would be no fun without the rest of the books :) I do have a soft spot for the prologues though. Always good to hear from you.
Hello A.P! Just recently finished House of Chains, and I loved every bit of it! So far my favorite of the first 4 novels. Book 1 of House of Chains was particularly enjoyable to me, with Karsa’s singular POV and self contained quest story. Listening to you and Philip reference the Conan/Robert E. Howard books, I was wondering if you could recommend any other books from that older pulp fantasy genre/style, that HoC book 1 could have possibly drawn inspiration from? Would love to explore some shorter tales before diving back into the world of Malazan and Midnight Tides...
Oh I was waiting for this one E: I went into HoC with skepticism. I held off on reading it for a little bit because I wasn't sure how much I would like it as I see it near the bottom of a lot of people's lists, but I have to say, this book blew me away just like all the others. My favorite thing about this book has to be Trull and Onrack, probably because it reminds me a lot of Tool and Toc the Younger because it follows the journey of a mortal and a T'lan Imass and shows how much influence people can have on seemingly emotionless creatures. And the end to Felisin's story was heartbreaking. After I read that scene, I just kind of sat there like... why? Why is that how it had to happen? But looking back I can't say that I'm surprised Erikson did that to us.
I am really glad that you enjoyed the book. Everyone is entitled to their own personal preferences, but I think that each of these books has individual strengths, themes, and characters that can stimulate thought and engagement.
Yer man Karsa certainly makes a strong first impression doesn't he? Finished it last night and it might be my favourite in the series so far. Also, adore Onrack and Trull Sengar.
Poor Heboric, never mentioned. :) Actually, this character spoilered to me in Deadhouse Gates, who Karsa is. I just figured it out at the end of the first chapter, start to think how on earth he would end up in Raraku. I still don't like Karsa because I cannot forgive that first 300 pages of one POV in this book. :) I really like watching these spoiler talks after I finished a book, sad they are too short. :)
I am very glad that you enjoyed the video. I would make them longer, but the average watch time is already only 15 minutes 😂😂😂😂 We never have enough time to think of everything.
The jacket is apparently a prerequisite for talking about literature... If I am very good this year Santa may bring me the leather patches for the elbows.
It's great as always, though this will be the last spoiler discussion I'll be watching for a while. I have Midnight Tides on my 2021 TBR, but I'm not sure I'll make it this year. As for the second half of the series... let's hope I'll finish by 2030 :P
Hi Bram, thanks for watching, I really hope that you enjoy the other books that are in your TBR pile. A brilliant thing about books, they don't go off, so we can all read them at our own pace and when it is convenient for us. I hope to see you in the non-spoiler videos, but if this is your last visit for a while, have a great year and I will see you when you come back.
@@ACriticalDragon Oh, my TBR contains a lot of fantasy, including Sanderson, King, Pratchett and others. As well as non-fiction. The only thing with older books is that the CGI becomes a bit dated, but that's okay :P
The story of Karsa is like that of a naive child becoming a man. He is more like a child then the "children" he sets out to kill. Full of children's stories, he symbolically kills the child within, breaks the chains of the lies of his grandfather to follow a path of truth, revenge, and justice.
Hi Craxan, that is a great observation. Not everyone talks about Karsa's arc as both a play on the common coming of age quest narrative, but also the subversion of Frodo's arc in LotR. There is a lot to unpack in Karsa, even considering this one book.
But a character can be a villain and still a favourite character... it doesn't mean that you agree with all their actions. I think that Darth Vader was a brilliant character, it doesn't mean that I want to rule the galaxy... wait.. hang on... nope, I do want to rule the galaxy... never mind.
@@ACriticalDragon My eight year old grandkid said his favorite character was Thanos. I wasn't sure if I should worry. Then when they showed the all female line-up on the battlefield in endgame he said, "A team of girls! Give me a break!" Again, not sure if I should worry.
Going from memory here, but beyond a single exception I can remember*, does the POV stay limited to Karsa for the entire beginning of the book? * I recall that after Karsa leaves on his raid, his father throws out his grandfather. I think there may also have been a scene where the broken T'lan Imass appear. I wonder whether this intro could have been written solely from Karsa's limited perspective and whether anything would have been gained or lost.
Hi Jagarr, yup, there are a few short scenes that break the continuity of Karsa's POV. But, a bit like 'Rake doesn't have a PoV in GotM' (when he has a short one in GotM while in draconic form hunting the demon) it is an overstatement for the sake of simplification. But I do not think rewriting them in order to strictly maintain structural purity would have improved the text. I think that the additional scenes added colour and texture, while the overall narrative trajectory was maintained. But yes, it is a bit of a cheat... Like the analepsis in NoK.
Hi A.P., I appreciate this discussion on HoC. I particularly liked the points you bring up on Karsa, Bidithal, and Cultural Relativism (a hotly debated topic in anthropology to this day). I think Erikson explores this topic in a very careful way with the example of female genital mutilation, a very relevant problem to this day. But im wondering then, who has the right to make that judgment and act on reprehensible acts of violence. In Malazan, we have Karsa swooping in and giving Bidithal a taste of his own medicine. But in the real world you allude to how there's humans rights organization that declare female genital mutilation to be wrong but powerful governments create political ties and trade deals that make it so that female genital mutilation persist regardless of these declarations. What I'm getting at is, what aspects of societies become seen as morally reprehensible while other violent acts be seen simply as "the way of the world." For example, in real life and in Malazan, empire building is the standard, yet these processes are seen as taken for granted necessities.
Karsa's journey is one of the more interesting ones. He starts out not a hero, encounters fantastical things, really doesn't play a large part in the final battle and isn't likely to be giving any boons when he gets back. I wonder if Mark Lawrence has read Malazan as there is a little Karsa in Jorg. It wasn't until my reread, and likely because I was thinking about the movie, the similarities between Felisin and Alia of the Knife. Her last line in the Sci Fi movie was "I want my brother". Regarding the scorpions, soldiers on the beach at Anzio really did have beetle fights and mule races between the shellings. And lastly, Bidithal's poetic death. Just what kind of poetry are you reading? And really lastly, for not watching any anime, the flaming demon urine is probably in one somewhere. Perhaps the demons are from a cold climate. The armpit would be a great place to keep them warm in the winter. But hugging would be awkward and high fives right out.
Hi Eric, Your comments, as always, are illuminating. Poetic as in 'poetic justice'... But check out Dante's Inferno if you are having concerns about my reading habits 😂😂😂
So I just finished this one. Amazing. I’ll be honest, in the first chapter, I wasn’t sure I was going to like Karsa. I got interested in his story when they ran in the Forkrul trapped under that slab, and from there it just got better for me, I think that was the 1st time in this story he got his but kicked by something. Loved the ending - I was of course expecting a major battle like we had in Memories of Ice, but I liked what we got a lot better. I was also expecting Tavore to find out Sha’ik was her sister, but how it went down here is better I think. Having read all of Felisin’s story I feel bad for her, feel like she was just trying to survive the circumstances she finds herself in. I feel like the Army of the Apocalypse never had much of a chance, everyone there seemed to be plotting against everyone else. One question I had was the ending with Trull Sengar and Onrack - did anyone else end up sitting on the First Throne, or were they just successful in preventing the bad guys from doing so.
Just finished HoC, thoroughly enjoyed it. 1) Man I hate bidithal. I was worried because i didn’t think anything could happen to him that would satisfy my loathing.. but it did!🤣 2) Felisin:( That was so tragic I really thought she might reconcile with tavore. Heartbreaking. 3) Cutter and Apsalar?? I don’t know if I am supposed to understand why or where she has gone yet to be honest. Looking forward to having my questions answered. This series gets better with every entry for me. Love the discussions gents!
Also, your point around 50ish minutes where you discuss people saying the first 80% of these books are a slog, and they prefer the action of the last couple hundred pages. Such an important point! I feel the same about how A Storm of Swords is often hailed as the best ASOIAF book; if you picked that up without reading the previous two entries, it wouldn't be much good!
I've always looked at Karsa as the inner savage. His morality is brutal in its simplicity. He is us without the constraints of society. In many cases it is appalling, but in his best moments as a character his simplicity exposes the hypocrisy of the stories we use to justify our behaviour. Even his simplicity is deceptive, it is not the simplicity of the ignorant but of the morally weary. It's not that the Teblor, as descendants of one of the elder races, never had a complex morality but that they discarded it as a burden on them.
I always loved Karsa from the moment I started reading about him so hearing that I was supposed to hate him for being an arrogant, prideful barbarian before coming to grudgingly appreciate his perspective makes me wonder if maybe I'm broken. Maybe it's just that I'm not the kind person to judge someone for taking a course of action I wouldn't take, even one I might frown upon.
@@ACriticalDragon Sure, and it's not like there is no climax at the end. I listened to the discussion the guys from Ten Very Big Books had with S.E. about HoC and S.E. explicitly says why he decided for this kind of ending, contrasting it with MoI. I found that interesting.
I'm a take it as it comes type of reader so I never felt that big confusion reading Malazan that everybody is talking about. Until I got to Karsa. At first I though, a new character, again. It will sort itself out. But it kept going and going, and I was thinking, what the hell is going on here? Am I even reading the right book? And when the big reveal finally came I was absolutely blown away. Fantastic stuff. I did 100% forgive Karsa But I wouldn't be abale to forgive someone who did similar stuff to someone close to me. I'm fairly sure that I can only forgive Karsa because he's a fictional character. I don't think I'd be able to forgive anyone who acted this way in real life, even if it was done to someone who has nothing to do with me.
Great conversation as always. House of Chains is a special entry for me, especially in hindsight. SERIES SPOILERS The way the story and world absorbs and transforms the events of the Chain of Dogs is such a surreal experience for the reader and felt more impactful than the event itself for me. (Much like how the Siege of Pale opens first on its aftermath, the narrative seems to be putting emphasis on exploring the aftermath and the rippling effect of events on the people and world more than the events themselves.) The 14th having to stew and sift in the aftermath, and wonder if they can fill the hole left in the world, I found to be such compelling drama. The same could be said for when they find out about the fall of the Bridgeburners. This theme of the ones who’ve witnessed having to answer the question: “What do we do now” is paramount to the series. Most of us in our own lives won’t be the Coltaine’s or Whiskeyjack’s of the world; instead we will be the 14th’s; witnessing others, and asking ourselves the same questions. Erikson getting us to engage with these serious real-world ideas through our emotional investment is amazing. The way Erikson has the 14th symbolically carry these two legends, signifying to us that they are their spiritual successors, is done in an emotionally resonant way that echoes for the entire rest of the story. The real brilliance of this book is its subversive ending. There is a quote later in the series by Warleader Gall, referring to the Chain of Dogs: “They died but they won.” In a way, I think the same could be said for the Bridgeburners; they accomplished their mission, died a heroes death, were witnessed, and left an emotional, cathartic impact on the reader. Here, with the 14th, I’d say it’s the opposite. The 14th does not fulfill their purpose with their own hands; they don’t even draw a blade come the final battle. And Tavore loses the one thing she sought to protect. What a bitter and hollow victory. The way this sets up the arc of the 14th and Tavore is just brilliant. A big part of the emotional satisfaction of the endings of MoI and DG is the experience of shared grief. Characters witness the death of a loved one and we get to share in that feeling of connection, which is cathartic and gives a sense of resolution. Here, we don’t get that. After going on this emotional journey with Felisin, she dies and no one knows. No one is aware of the tragedy that just took place besides Lostara and Pearl. Tavore does not know what she just did. She does find out that her sister is dead, but we do not get to see her inner world of thoughts and feelings. She stands alone, looking out to the sea, and we can only look on with a quite sense of sorrow and loneliness as we wonder what to do with our lingering emotions for Felisin. The deafening silence of this scene is profound and left me not even knowing how to feel for days after finishing for the first time, and I think it’s the best kind of art that does that. Being denied that cathartic resolution, and instead leaving that tension to hang heavy over our hearts and continue to build in pressure and intensity, up until the very end of the series when it’s finally released, is the most monumentally satisfying emotional catharsis I’ve experienced.
Thank you for watching and for the incredible, thoughtful comment. Literature, at least for me, is the art form that fully encompasses the sublime. The mind and the soul, intellect and emotion, literature is the thing that I find combines both. So thank you for the great comment. The fact that this series consistently plays with genre, narrative, and literary structures and techniques, as well as reader expectations, while still weaving a compelling narrative is one of the many reasons why I rate it so highly.
Karsa is such a great character! Books could be written about him.. wait 🤔😂 I get the comment about Erikson having personal reasons for writing in the 'on the nose' parts about a woman cooking, and Tavore being gay. But I doubt he would do it for just that reason - and having zero background information at the time of reading I never read it that way. Rather, despite there being no religious or hierarchical bias against women in general there still are some common gender roles - wether biological, cultural or historical doesn't matter. Raising children and domestic tasks are still prevalent roles. As for being gay, again no religious bias helps a lot. But Tavore has a noble background, where marriage and producing heirs is still the expected thing. The commoners and soldiers might not care, even to other nobles it might be perfectly acceptable - but that doesn't remove the bias completely. And to someone like Tavore, who has a problem with showing her personality and especially her weaknesses in public, this would matter. Maybe it is again a sign of her naivety when it comes to the 'real world', for as smart as she is she's still lived a noble's life and is more booksmart than streetsmart. Loved your discussion once again, and your enthusiasm for this book - this is one of my favourites from a fantastic series. I love Karsa as a character - to read.. wouldn't personally wanna be anywhere near him 😂 Oh poor Felisin.. you were doomed from the start 😢
Oh, and I think you're spot on about Cotillion and the name Sorry - it is him literally apologizing to both the girl, and anyone who gets caught up in that business. What's more, I read it as Shadowthrone recognising that immediately and empathizing with his friend - but thinking it overly sentimental. And, being who he is, never straying from his path no matter the cost to himself, his friend or anyone else.
Hi Rob, thanks for watching. I don't disagree with there being other reasons to include the lines, I just think that one of them is to help the reader see how the world is constructed and to notice that general point. Lines can have more than one use... or have you not watched the prologue videos ;)
Hi Andrew, I may have been a bit more boisterous in this one than normal... In my defence, Philip is more than capable of telling me to shut up. 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 I have promised him that I will try not to talk too much.
I understood Felisin's death differently. I got the feeling that she was just tired of it all and decided to put an end to it. Suicide by sister, so to speak.
Spoilers. . . . . . .When I realized Dryjhna was Onrack's wife who was 'cheated' by him and Killava... another broken soul that suffered from profound maddening grief... Made me cry. I see some parallel with heartbreaking Felisin's demise... :/
Hi Franz, good to hear from you again. That is a very salient and important point, too often we see 'villain' and never think of how they got there, and I think that one of the powerful things that Erikson explores is the humanity that led to the villain, and asks us to extend compassion and empathy to them even while not insisting that we forgive them.
@@ACriticalDragon definitely! Compassion and empathy can only be understood if you can apply them to all, to every single individual. But, as you said for Karsa (just to keep an example), it does not means that we agree or his actions are accepted... we just understand. Seeing the world with the eyes of the other is something we must learn to do. And that is one of the reasons why I love Mr. Erikson's work so much. And your channel (and Phillip's) too... thank you for this videos! I am trying to see all videos, but I've soooo busy...
Never fear Franz, there is no rush nor hurry to watch the videos. They will be there for when it is convenient for you to watch them. I appreciate the support and the comments, have a fantastic weekend.
I thought it was funny how karsa was perplexed by the humans "custom" to take slaves and imprison people and in a way thinks that it is very cruel as opposed to their ways, cause this concept just doesnt exist in their culture
And yet his 'right' of sexual conquest, abhorrent to us, is viewed as perfectly normal by both him and all the female Teblor. It is a fascinating look at cultural relativism and moral relativism. Thanks for watching and commenting. I hope that you have a great New Year.
@@ACriticalDragon Thanks :) Happy New Year to you too, loving the videos and i am slowly catching up with the spoiler talks as i work my way through the series.
about the slog complaints and "needed to be trimmed down" comments and slowburn comments, i think that's a result of the general state of entertainment media of the last few decades (the downward spiral of entertainment media if i'm being honest). i know this will come off as condescendig, as my comments mostly do, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me that popular movies, music and books of the 21st century come anywhere near the qualitay of those of the second half of the 20th. on practically any level. it's all spectacle and no supstance so it's logical that people conditioned for that sort of thing will misunderstand, or not at all understand, what eriksons books bring to the table. just like they'd not enjoy the deer hunter or straw dogs or the unfogiven while praising the mcu and getting pissed of at scorsese of saying what he said. the music aspect is so depressing i don't even want to think about it. and i know a.p. and philip are to nice to say anything bad about anyones tastes and will probably see my comment and think "what an asshole" but i have huge issues with this. and, to use the much beloved booktube word, i think it's problematic that very few people are willing to adress this because of the notion that it's not ok to question anyones perception of... anything really. we should question everything. and questioning the state of art at this moment could tell us a lot about many other things in our society, in my not so humble opinion. the fact that any discussion where someone is not agreeing about anything that's not banal is becoming taboo is worrying and suffocating. so, to finish off by being a complete jerk, to anyone that thinks that mistborn or the faithfull and the fallen or six of crows or whatever is better than malazan: you're wrong. (again a.p. sorry for doing this on your channel, sometimes i have to vent)
No worries. I don't think that the change is quite as bad as you perhaps do. Books are still here after all. We had the panic with the advent of the home television that books would die. The introduction of computer games was to be the death knell of books. The internet was going to kill books. Smart phones would kill books. And I think every new generation will have a new thing that will challenge the status quo and challenge orthodoxy, and will challenge perceived notions of narrative. But I also have faith that though styles may change and go through cycles of popularity, stories that use complex metaphor and symbolism to explore complex themes and the human condition will always have a place. But I also think that as genres become ever more stratified and sub-divided, and we as a population become increasingly catered to for every niche desire at ever faster speeds, that we are increasingly encouraged to perceive narratives as consumables rather than as art. But, time will tell whether the pendulum will swing back, or if it will carry on a little further.
@@ACriticalDragon thanx for the reply! i agree with you completely and was never really worried about advancing tech, actually maybe had higher expectacions from it (tho now that i think about it, the effect of video games maybe did simplify narratives in other media). what i have problems with is the perception of narratives as consumables rather than art (or the notion that art should be easily consumabe). i'm mostly disappointed by the lack of recognition and understanding of the good stuff. it's hard for me to see people praising various popular fantasy (sanderson and such) and then complaining about eriksons writing in all the typical ways they do. i'm kinda new to the booktube thing and i guess i was expecting a different level of conversation. something like your channel, philips, rafs, christines and so on (and i thank you all for what you do). anyway, i hope this new malazan momentum will raise the bar in the broader bt community
I think that technology has always, and will always, drive change in narrative. Shorter attention spans, instant gratification, elevated dopamine surges from overloading sensory perceptions, are a heady mixture to combat with the lure of something that requires time, study, and patience. Something that requires effort to interpret. Literature struggles against other narrative forms because it requires a significant time investment. We live in a time of an accelerated pace, in which we are cramming in as much as possible, always being encouraged to consume more, all while being told that the next big thing will be here soon. So narratives that use straightforward techniques to tell (rather than show) a story become a desired, marketable form. If they become the dominant narrative approaches then their inheritors will quite frequently exacerbate those techniques and eschew the techniques that are less marketable. This generates an ouroboros that distills the most marketable techniques and styles as the art form becomes a marketable commodity for mass consumption. Or at least, that is one possible way of looking at it.
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Is it weird that I enjoy watching our discussions just as much as I enjoy having them in the first place? Thanks so much, A.P., for the opportunity to discuss this book and deepen both my understanding and my appreciation for it. Somehow, we also manage to have a lot of fun too!
Hi Philip, as I keep saying, these are always so much fun to do with you. Although, I will promise to let you talk more. I *may* have gotten a little carried away in this one.
Thank you so much for having these discussions with me.
@@ACriticalDragon Getting carried away is part of the fun, and sometimes a critical dragon needs to roar and send forth some flames!
@@ACriticalDragon Nobody puts Philip in a corner!
The music swells. "Now I've had the time of my life....." 😁
these conversations you have are the most pleasant and enjoyable ones. The combination of easygoing, light tone, laughter, relaxed attitude + badass analysis is quite special! I can't wait to see you both in the next one :)
@@RoxanaMagdaD We’ll be back!!!
Ah, the introduction of my favorite character, Trull Sengar. Although I believe he always needs a hug, the award for character that most needs a hug will remain Toc the Younger.
I think that Toc got enough hugs in Memories of Ice.
@@ACriticalDragon
🤣 ouch!
And you dared complain about 'Pulp' 😋
Too soon, Rob, too soon.
"I have tolerated the deceitful and the malicious for long enough. My sword shall now answer them"
Good job boys always a pleasure watching your boyish enthusiasm shine on the Malazan series.......
Very glad that you enjoyed it.
Since I finally decided, after two previously unsuccessful attempts, to read The Gardens of the Moon, I also decided to read the 10 books in the saga in a row, without pauses or stops along the way or breaks to read other things until the entire saga is finished... I have to say that one of the extra incentives that I have found to continue non-stop are these spoiler talks. While reading the novels I sometimes find myself thinking "Wow, I can't wait to see what Philip Chase and the AP have to say about this novel." So thank you once again, because you give an extra richness (if that was possible) to the experience of reading the Malaz saga. So go ahead with "Midnight Tides", I can't wait to hear your spoiler talk.
Thank you, a great discussion as always!
I think there is a connection between Trull's metaphor of uncontrollable fire and the characters who choose to follow the Crippled God (or are deceived by him). The fire is not just the will to conquer, it's also the desire of revenge, the resentment, when one wants to perpetuate suffering and inflict more suffering to avenge their own torment. The Whirlwind Goddess, Silgar, Bidithal, Kallor are all driven by this desire. While characters like Trull, having suffered, don't wish for others to suffer. And Karsa goes from being in a revenge cycle to seeing a way out.
Very cool point. Thanks.
Speaking of Itkovian, from the last book, I enjoyed his story, and it was also used to introduce the various ‘offices’ that people can hold in these various ‘houses’ in the deck of dragons. Mortal Sword, Destriant, etc
And then in this book we see Heboric, for example, being given that title
I do feel like this books are getting somewhat easier for me to follow, as I get deeper into the series. Probably part getting used to the style, and part learning the various aspects of the world.
Becoming familiar with the world, the context, and the style, all add to it.
Great conversation. In terms of Felisin, she is also slowly ripped away from the reader by not getting her POV and her absence from the scenes until her very end.
Hi Francois, good to hear from you again. I am glad that you enjoyed the conversation.
Finish your Malazan book, re-read the prologue, come to Critcal Dragon, start the next one. Thanks guys.
You are very welcome. I hope that you are enjoying the videos. Thanks for watching.
The real-life-inspired pairing was Pearl and Lostara?I love that!! I loved every pairing in the book, and those two were fantastic. I had fun reading the hate-to-love trope in Malazan!
Your theory on how Sorry got the name Sorry is brilliant. I never thought of that! The conversation between Cotillian and Apsalar was one of my favorite moments.
I loved House of Chains from beginning to end. In fact, there was one chapter I thought I didn't care for, and then I reread it and realized I was wrong: I loved it.
This discussion was fabulous! I would pay to take a class on Malazan and discuss and explore every book with you two.
Hi Johanna, great to hear from you. I am glad that you enjoyed the video. A semester class on Malazan would be a lot of reading. Even I was never that cruel to students.
@@ACriticalDragon True, I would fail as I can barely read one Malazan book in a month. Some might succeed though. The Contradictorian is reportedly reading this series in four weeks. He read Gardens of the Moon in 2 days. Maybe if I could read that fast...
I believe there is an old folktale involving a tortoise and a hare that might be appropriate.
:)
@@ACriticalDragon Then I win...eventually.
I enjoy these chats more than anything else after each malazan book , it just deepens the experience and makes you appreciate it more , sometimes i wish it was 10 hours long, would never get bored 🤣
And I agree about Karsa. He is so well written. He is a product of his culture and environment, and was never given space to think another way. His development when is exposed to other cultures and people is great to see in this book. Can’t wait to see more
I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion. Karsa is a surprisingly complex character that invites introspection and contemplation. The nuances to his arc are really engaging.
Thanks for watching.
@@ACriticalDragon No problem man you have some of the highest quality stuff I’ve seen on TH-cam. Very deep reader who notices and discusses stuff I would never have noticed. So hyped for my re read. Watching your analyses after I finish the book is always a treat. Keep up the great stuff man.
Another entertaining Dr Fantasy & P'Rofessor Fireball discussion. Witness !
Hi DJ, I am glad that you enjoyed it. Chatting with Philip is a lot of fun, we have a great time, and I get to think about different aspects of the books as we chat.
I am quite pleased that so many people seem to enjoy watching us goof around.
@@ACriticalDragon Don't undersell yourselves - these informal discussions hold immense value to readers looking to "debrief" upon completion of a book. I particularly enjoy the prologue analyses for the enlightenment they bring. Carry on "goofing around", I guess ! :)
I agree with everything you both said about Karsa. It's what makes him such a great character, he has been manipulated his whole life, and shows some great character growth over the series. I also loved the scene with the Teblor ladies, teaching him a lesson.
Hi Paul, Karsa is certainly a very vividly drawn character who adds a lot of moral complexity directly into the narrative. As well as making us think about what compassion, forgiveness, and empathy mean, both abstractly, but also in practice, he also provides some great action set pieces... it is not all about philosophising. :)
I don't know about the word manipulated... He has simply been growing up in a different working society. He was not taught or raised different than all the others (or if he was, then from his father, which would rather be a 'good' influence) and that is the point. The Teblor society works that way. Karsa sees every child (essentially us humans) not as being manipulated, but raised with customs and beliefs typical of our surrounding. When he left his surroundings that is what he learnt I think. That loss of innocence is what opened him to evolution I think....
Hi Damian, but the 'Teblor Gods' specifically choose Karsa and influence him. It is referenced explicitly multiple times. If external pressure to change a person's path and decisions without that person's knowledge or consent and all for the benefit of the influencer is not manipulation then how do we describe it?
@@ACriticalDragon true. I maybe thought Paul was referring to another kind of 'manipulation'. My misinterpretation on my part probably :) Well here for learning aren't we
(maybe also because I commented before viewing the entire video...)
No worries at all. Discussion is all part of the fun of reading... at least for me.
I don't like Karsa as a person , but at least for me, the character works so, so well.
The character reminds me a bit of a conversation in the movie Troy between Achilles and Briseis, one she ends with :
" I thought you were a dumb brute. I could have forgiven a dumb brute"
On the other hand :
His arc has so many gems hidden in there. Without going all the way down I'll quote one of my favorites.
Spoilery spoilers up to book 6:
[Karsa]He bared his teeth. 'One day I will return to my people. And I will shatter all that they believe.
And I will say to my father, "Forgive me. You were right to disbelieve. You were right to despise the laws that chained us."
And to my grandfather, I shall say nothing at all.'
He is a brilliantly realised and surprisingly complex character, and the depth behind his story and arc can really catch you by surprise when you start to examine it.
Just finished House of Chains for the first time. Really connected with this book on many emotional levels. Ive come to realize that this series requires real effort on the readers part, but it's completely worth it because of how rewarding it is. Can't wait to continue the series. I've been waiting to watch this discussion for a long while now. Brilliant job, guys!
First time reader, I'm well into Midnight Gates. But, I love to go back and listen to you guys speak about things that I might have missed and just the literary value of Erikson's writing. It is definitely getting better and I can grasp the weaves between the stories in building this massive world by joining in and listening to you! These types of things would be sorely missed in the pre-Book Tube era, but, as we can see, you can get a grasp on all of this by persistence and love of literature in general.
Hi Scott, thanks for watching, and I hope that you are enjoying the books.
I sincerely hope that the discussions that Philip and I have add to people's enjoyment of the books.
@@ACriticalDragon They most definitely do. Cheers from Ukraine!
Because of COVID I got to read some incredible stuff. I read the Wheel of Time first - good. But, Malazan is blowing me away. Just a different level of reading and thinking experience.
@@scottbrown5235 oddly enough, I read the complete Wheel of Time last year as well... Most of it was a reread, but I hadn't read the Sanderson conclusions.
@@ACriticalDragon It was good, I really liked it. It's off the bucket list. But, Malazan is just so much better in my opinion. More to think about even when you are not reading it. Truly magnificent. Some time later you can tell me whether the Ian books are worth reading. For now, I'm going 1-10 (I've got the Omnibus).
Grub and the thighbone.
Makes for an awesosme image.
Its the beginning of the Bonehunters for me. And I love how Erickson started this transformation long before the book of the same title.
Engrossing, A.P. Another winner by the Doughty Duo!
I finished the whole series four days ago, and felt impelled to pick up GotM again, just to get that veteran feeling of seeing all the missed info, foreshadowing and hints... And yes, they are all there. Quite a series!
Hi Johan, congratulations on finishing the series. I hope that you enjoyed it.
I am greatly enjoying my reread with Philip, but never forget, there are loads of great books out there, so don't feel that you have to launch right back in.
But I have to say that rereading the series is incredibly rewarding.
@@ACriticalDragon Literature is an ocean. Still, I will re-read GotM just for the thrill of it, and then leave those ten big books to themselves for a while, after eight months of dogged and rewarding devotion...
I really enjoyed this chat! I finished House of Chains last week and loved it These chats truly enhance my reading experience, so thank you both!
Thanks to you both for this one, I think this is my favourite spoiler discussion yet :) I can't pick a favourite book still, but this one is up there Karsa and his development were such a standout focal point for me in HoC. The way the writing contrasts between slavery, torture and despair with some of the funniest moment in the series I've read so far (Joyful union) and the relationship between Tool and Trull is just brilliant! Looking forward to the next video :D
Hi Callum, thanks for watching. I love reading the series and have never really put a lot of thought into ranking the books. I tend to treat each one as separate and enjoy what is there.
Love loading up these videos as I finish each book. Glad to have you gentlemen on the Malazan journey with me!
The ending of Felisin's story was heartbreaking. Anybody who has experienced sibling-related strife must surely be moved by such a story.
Hi J D, I am glad that you enjoyed it. Apparently there are some that don't like the end of House of Chains, but I enjoyed it and thought that it had a great emotional weight.
@@ACriticalDragon I thought the ending was perfect. Not everything needs to end in a big battle.
I'm on my second reading and I love listening to you two, both the spoiler free and spoiler rich videos, before I start a new book. It helps me to unveil so many layers and details I didn't even notice the first time.
However, don't ever think your viewers fall asleep listening to you! I actually just watched your video to keep myself awake at work 😃 also, thank you both tor speaking so clearly and slowly, non native English speakers deeply appreciate that!
You are very welcome. I am very happy that you are enjoying the videos and the books.
One of my favorite things to do after finishing these books is listening to you guys talk about it! I love all the insights just make me appreciate these great books even more! Thanks A.P. and Philip! You guys are awesome!
Just finished HoC yesterday. What a timing.
Awesome conversations gentlemen!
I am so glad that you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching.
Another brilliant chat gents! My eternal thanks to both of you.
And onwards I go on the journey. I wanna know more about this Trull fella - he hasn't won me over fully yet
You are very welcome. The offer remains open that if you ever want to actually talk about Malazan we can do that.
@@ACriticalDragon haha absolutely! I'll give you a shout
Thank you very much for letting us in on your conversations. It’s unusual for a conversation about a book to deepen my appreciation of it… which may represent a failing of mine. But anyhow yours do just that! I’ve only just read the house of chains. These convos help me process the experience.
I am really pleased that you are enjoying the videos. Thanks for watching.
On my first read, I did not sit and consider things too much. Karsa was a fascinating character, beacon of hope, great evolution, great arc, etc. The second read though, I realized I don't like him. He's not a good person. He is very well written, but not a good person at all, at least not to me. Great analogy with the Bene Gesserit! As rough as this may sound, to me he will always be a rapist. But I understand his perspective, and he did change, he evolved, he learned, which is great. He is a very complex character. And oh, dear Philip, Chase, there is no Karsa in you ! :)))
Pearl & Lostara Yil having conversations from SE's life is just adorable. Trull crying for Onrack is a very, very moving moment.
This was a very valuable and enjoyable video, than you both very, very much! ❤️ ❤️
Rox, always a pleasure to hear from you. And that is a perfectly reasonable and understandable reaction to Karsa.
(Also I love how you mention there is no Karsa in Philip but are suspiciously silent about there being a Karsa in me :P)
I hope that you have a fantastic weekend.
@@ACriticalDragon hahahah we were watching Christine Vallestad's new video, so I had to wait and then go back to your video and see if I failed noticing something at the moment Philip mentioned that he reflected about there being a little Karsa in him. My bad for not paying attention - I don't think there is any Karsa in you either, A.P. :) You both are these great, highly educated people, I fail to see any trace of Karsa here :)
I wish you a lovely weekend, stay safe! :)
@@RoxanaMagdaD Christine is doing some brilliant analysis. She is showing what careful attention to the text can reveal. They are really fantastic videos.
@@ACriticalDragon I totally agree! All your videos (and by that I mean you, Philip, Christine) are extraordinarily valuable because of your knowledge and experience as editors and lecturers. Of course, all book tubers bring their own values over, and the fact that there is so much variety, such varied perspectives is only doing the community a great favor, as we can learn from all of you. Thank you so much for everything you do, and please don't stop :)
On my first re-read of the series. So much more satisfying and easier to digest everything. So rich.
A. P, I admit that I am thinking somewhat similiarly about this slog thing I hear recently, as to me these books are some of the finest work I have ever read to combine such length without becoming slogs, in order to tell their stories. The way they are constructed gives value to almost every scene inherently, in how they add to the conclusions whether minor or major. But taste does differ so maybe it is as simple as that.
Anyway, love listening to these talks as much as you two seem to enjoy doing them!
Hi Violet, thank you for watching and the thoughtful comment.
You are absolutely right that tastes are individual, but it seems (and this could very well be a misapprehension on my part) that there is an increasing expectation that books just tell a story, and that it should be told in a certain way.
The amazing variety of narrative techniques, styles of narrative, approaches to writing, variances in structures, and the complexity of literary devices seems to be increasingly ignored in favour of a direct story told in a linear, economical chronology.
Literature of all types goes through phases and evolutions, but this consumerist approach to story, the privileging of what happens over how, is a modern trend that saddens me.
Hopefully I am wrong, but I get a sense that this trend will continue for quite some time.
@@ACriticalDragon I think you hit the nail on the head with this one! It does feel like a consumerist approach to reading, as though some people forget that literature is art first and a product second.
I have noticed how people go into books with set expectations and even if said books are great works, if their expectations are not met, they get annoyed or impatient or project the disappointment onto the book, as though that reflects its quality.
And I have to blame marketing strategies and the publishing world’s fetish with genres. It sets up the average reader to expect formulas and recipes rather than unique voices telling a story in their own way. Almost like not knowing in advance where the story is going and how it will travel that journey is a bad thing.
@@irinaj8716 And we also see this with trailers and new series and films. Instead of reacting to what is there, there is almost the reaction of 'this is not what I was expecting therefore it is bad'. My frustration with modern film trailers and promotional material is that it starts earlier and earlier, and reveals more and more. A lot of new films and series have so much given away before we even get to watch them.
Then we have the added factor that this approach to narrative is being imposed on books and literature.
It is a strange time to be reading.
Thank you for this wonderful conversation. It's so much fun to have these after finishing another Malazan novel.
You are very welcome, Sa Jeeuh. I am glad that you enjoyed it. I hope that Philip and I didn't make too many mistakes. Thank you for watching and commenting. It is much appreciated.
As always, what a delight to hear both of your thoughts on such a special book. House of chains surprised me in so many ways, and will forever be one my most special Malazan books. The first part with Karsa is just a masterpiece. Thank you for these videos, really enjoy them!
Hi Jay,
I am very sorry that your comments keep getting hidden.
I am very glad that you are enjoying the chats Philip and I are having.
It is always good to hear from you, and I enjoyed your mid-malazan video.
Have a great weekend.
One of my favourite things to do is just journey through the book, trying to pick up on all those small hints and bits of puzzle that Erikson sprinkles through the narrative. I too get annoyed when people call the first 3 quarters of his books “a slog”, because it’s not a slog. It’s build up. You can’t just start with the roof of a house, you have to build the foundation first and each individual floor. And the joy for me is in part trying to guess the final architecture of the house from all those disparate elements.
And the best part is that, while you can pick up on most elements and piece them together before the final convergence, he will always surprise you in some way with how he resolves the conflicts.
The Malazan books are a treasure trove.
Hi Irina, thank you for watching and leaving the comments. I do appreciate the feedback.
It is nice to know that I am not completely wrong all the time.
I have just finished reading House of chains, and one of the first things I do, is watch your spoiler view videos love your content and thoughts.
Until the next time happy reading midnight tides is calling me.
Awesome, thank you. I hope that you enjoyed the discussions and other videos.
@@ACriticalDragon definitely love your content, and loving the journey thank you for you passion and insight, that comes across in these brilliant videos.
Happy reading.
@@ACriticalDragon I got to say I would love your books, on your bookcase behind you.
What a collection and they are the ones I can see in your videos.
I thought the scorpion fight was kind of a weird digression with a fun twist, but then when I finished the book I realized it was foreshadowing the entire final "battle" with the 14th Army also secretly being two entities. Brilliant stuff. Loved the talk!
People always seem to doubt me when I say that Erikson is a tricksy author who sneaks in subtext, foreshadowing, and complex imagery without you realising it.
A wonderful chat! And I stayed awake through the whole thing so don’t sell yourself short 😊
Hi Benjamin, thanks for staying awake. It is appreciated but not expected.
I am glad that you enjoyed the chat.
Yet another fantastic and illuminating conversation. This book is probably the one I am most looking forward to on my reread. It really wasn’t until the next book, specifically chapter 9, that the greater theme of the series finally took hold and I began to look at it differently. That lack of understanding really made House of Chains difficult for me, and I nearly put the series down. This time around I think it will be quite the different experience.
Can’t wait for next month’s video!
It is one of the great joys of the series that you can read the books multiple times and see different strands and themes emerge each time. I am very glad that you enjoyed the discussion. Philip is fantastic to discuss these books with.
@@ACriticalDragon Philipis brilliant. What he brings to every conversation he is in, from the viewpoints and analysis to his infectious joyful demeanor, is truly something else.
I love this. Amazing amazing analysis to an amazing amazing book. There are about a dozen others things that would have also been worth gushing about. Really loved this entry to the series.
Just finished HoC yesterday and it was amazing! Malazan may have become my new favourite series. Tavore, Trull and Karsa are all contenders for favourite character.
I was so invested in this book (due to my excitement to start MT) that I read the final 520 pages in one day. New record for me. Love your analyses and I’m excited to get to MT and tBH. Trying to stay ahead of ur discussions so I can watch em not long after I finish each entry.
Boy am I excited to start a re read
520 pages in a day??? Did you inhale the pages? 😉
There are times that I want to devour a book, but I have found that I generally enjoy a book more if I take my time.
If I have a deadline then that is a different story, that is intense, focused reading. But for pleasure I greatly enjoy lingering on paragraphs or rereading scenes as I read through.
I am so glad that you enjoyed the book.
@@ACriticalDragon I’m the same with you in that I normally like reading slower, but I realised that this is 100% a re read series, and as many literary professors have told me you should focus on these minute details etc on a second reading. Definitely going to slow down with MT and onwards. Thanks for the response, keep up the great work
Listening to you guys has giving me a whole new perspective on the emphasis of "chains" and their prevalence to the story line. I would really love to listen to you two discuss the novels Book of the New Sun, Book of the Long Sun, and Book of the Short Sun by Gene Wolf. Your insights and the way you both break down a narrative, it would be fascinating.
Thanks for watching, we will be on Malazan a while, but Gene Wolfe might be a good follow up.
Thank you for all your videos. They're helping me become a better, more thoughtful reader, especially with such a complex and dynamic series.
The Scorpion racing scene in this book reminded me of the Scorpion fight in Jarhead 🤣
It is a great scene and so utterly believable.
The discussion on Bidathal's end and its reflection on today's geopolitics really hit home, gave me a ton to think about.
Awesome discussion as always. For me personally, I found Karsa’s chapters hard to read, especially since I’m biased by our age of mass shootings. I could only picture the New Zealand mosque shooter from a couple years ago when I picture him as a character (the gleeful mass murderer aspect of it). It does raise good questions about at what point is redemption even possible or desirable as opposed to justice. I found myself thinking that for people like Karsa, I’d rather see justice. And then I found myself thinking about my reaction to the redemption of the Pannion Seer, and how I cheered on when Paran and Quick Ben gave him his absolution. Even though the Seer had committed even more evil acts than Karsa (and certainly on a much larger scale). It definitely made me question why I felt that way. I do think at the end of the day that the Seer was a horribly tortured and tragic figure, whereas Karsa had no such excuse. Or, maybe I’m just being a hypocrite, impossible to know.
And as a side note, the whole arc of Trull and Onrack was brilliant. I’m reading Midnight Tides now and I almost wish I had that connection with Trull that I am getting from reading MT when I first read HoC - it will make a re-read of HoC more powerful.
Hi, thank you for the comments.
As to Karsa v Pannion...
Pannion is a product of an Imass acting in a way that causes him to be tortured. An artificial intrusion into the natural order of things.
For Karsa we know that Icarium intervened and set up a new social structure based on tribal competition in order to 'strengthen' their blood. Institutional raiding with the result that only the greatest warriors/raiders would breed. A generational breeding programme that specifically promotes violence, physical prowess, and enhances those traits.
Then the Teblor are interfered with again by a group of T'lan Imass who instiutue new rituals in order to create a champion. This further changes Teblor culture.
Both in the case of Pannion and Karsa, there are external manipulations.
But in Pannion's case it is a direct torture, no matter how well intentioned.
Whereas in Karsa's case it is indirect in that a social structure has been created that normalises the behaviour.
So it can be easier to understand and forgive a direct victim, but harder to understand or forgive the victim of a dangerous ideology and social/moral paradigm.
What I find interesting is that once Karsa leaves the isolationist limits of the Teblor society and is exposed to other cultural norms he is capable of reevaluating his own behaviour and practice.
That doesn't forgive him, but it places a new context around his actions.
@@ACriticalDragon That’s a great way of putting it, and makes total sense as to why our reactions to the two are different. And as you guys mentioned too, the fact of us seeing Karsa commit these crimes in person creates a visceral reaction and biases us, in a way.
I love this conversation! I want to do a video chat about how Karsa Orlong has helped me be a better human. Lol But I haven't finished the series yet (just finished Reaper's Gale) and don't want to jump the gun! Thanks Philip and AP for these videos!
Thanks for watching, Paige.
I am really glad that you enjoyed the video.
If you end up making the video please let me know so I can watch it.
One of the things I like about Erikson's characters is that while I may never like some of them, they are still "human," making them interesting and sometimes relatable. It adds so much more realism and richness to the story because you realize that everybody has a story. You don't have to agree or even empathize with someone to understand motives and see the humanity of someone who really is a bit of a monster. And that, in some way that I can't quite fully express yet, makes me feel a bit more empathy to my fellow man and want to understand them better.
We don't live in a pristine world where it's always easy to take the high road or make great decisions. Of course, some people really do just wake up and choose violence, as the meme goes. I don't think our literature should pretend otherwise and I really like how Erikson portrays this without glorifying anyone's actions.
I'd love to hear your guys thoughts on the depiction of Rake through the view of Andarist and his use of the sword Grief/Vengeance in House of Chains. Especially in the compared to the first half of the Midnight Tides prologue, where the gods have to invene in the wake of what happens there, compared to his apparent apathy of what has been happening on Drift Avalii (if he was even aware).
I will always be here for your truthyness AP. 😁
Hi Seth, my truthiness will hopefully continue on. :)
@@ACriticalDragon I loved the discussion on Karsa. The way Erikson had me thinking about him from where he starts to where he ends was night and day. My favorite character growth in the series.
It's amazing how I went from absolutely despising Karsa Orlong's character to the complete opposite. He's one of my favorite characters so far!
Karsa is a very interesting character and the questions he raises about moral relativism, education and indoctrination, the advantages and disadvantages of 'civilisation'... a wonderful literary creation that challenges a lot of assumptions.
Oh, Tavore. I think, all things said and done, she is my favorite character in the series. Her character arc is so well constructed even without a POV in this book. Whenever she is in the text I feel like I'm one of the Bonehunters trying to figure her out in the same way a child tries to figure out his parents. There is a similar awe and mystery and as a result of that energy spent to try and know her the relationship with her character grows ever tighter and the empathetic connection intensifies.
Hi Gabriel, thank you for watching and for the very insightful comment. I think that you have articulated exactly the effect that Erikson was going for with Tavore.
I just finished House of Chains about an hour ago. Karsa definitely gave me Conan vibes. The final confrontation between Felesin and Tavore was heart wrenching. I enjoyed this book, but I would say Memories of Ice is still my favorite so far, this being my very first read through.
gracias por los subtitulos!!!!
Dang I didn’t even snackrifice a goat this morning.
As The Who would say, 'The kids are alright'.
The Karsa discussion covered a lot of the stuff I had in mind when I commented on the Kallor-Elder Gods Prologue. (The faith thing will come later, but that's the only thing that's missing thematically).
Honestly I think I enjoy the prologues more than the convergences.
Also: Almost Tehol Beddict time;)
Hi Lukas, but the prologues would be no fun without the rest of the books :)
I do have a soft spot for the prologues though.
Always good to hear from you.
Hello A.P! Just recently finished House of Chains, and I loved every bit of it! So far my favorite of the first 4 novels. Book 1 of House of Chains was particularly enjoyable to me, with Karsa’s singular POV and self contained quest story. Listening to you and Philip reference the Conan/Robert E. Howard books, I was wondering if you could recommend any other books from that older pulp fantasy genre/style, that HoC book 1 could have possibly drawn inspiration from? Would love to explore some shorter tales before diving back into the world of Malazan and Midnight Tides...
Oh I was waiting for this one
E: I went into HoC with skepticism. I held off on reading it for a little bit because I wasn't sure how much I would like it as I see it near the bottom of a lot of people's lists, but I have to say, this book blew me away just like all the others. My favorite thing about this book has to be Trull and Onrack, probably because it reminds me a lot of Tool and Toc the Younger because it follows the journey of a mortal and a T'lan Imass and shows how much influence people can have on seemingly emotionless creatures. And the end to Felisin's story was heartbreaking. After I read that scene, I just kind of sat there like... why? Why is that how it had to happen? But looking back I can't say that I'm surprised Erikson did that to us.
I am really glad that you enjoyed the book. Everyone is entitled to their own personal preferences, but I think that each of these books has individual strengths, themes, and characters that can stimulate thought and engagement.
Yer man Karsa certainly makes a strong first impression doesn't he?
Finished it last night and it might be my favourite in the series so far. Also, adore Onrack and Trull Sengar.
Poor Heboric, never mentioned. :) Actually, this character spoilered to me in Deadhouse Gates, who Karsa is. I just figured it out at the end of the first chapter, start to think how on earth he would end up in Raraku. I still don't like Karsa because I cannot forgive that first 300 pages of one POV in this book. :)
I really like watching these spoiler talks after I finished a book, sad they are too short. :)
I am very glad that you enjoyed the video.
I would make them longer, but the average watch time is already only 15 minutes 😂😂😂😂
We never have enough time to think of everything.
@@ACriticalDragon ohh, that is sad
The Blazer Brothers strike again!
The jacket is apparently a prerequisite for talking about literature... If I am very good this year Santa may bring me the leather patches for the elbows.
@@ACriticalDragon Maybe a nice ascot and meerschaum.
It's great as always, though this will be the last spoiler discussion I'll be watching for a while. I have Midnight Tides on my 2021 TBR, but I'm not sure I'll make it this year.
As for the second half of the series... let's hope I'll finish by 2030 :P
Hi Bram, thanks for watching, I really hope that you enjoy the other books that are in your TBR pile. A brilliant thing about books, they don't go off, so we can all read them at our own pace and when it is convenient for us. I hope to see you in the non-spoiler videos, but if this is your last visit for a while, have a great year and I will see you when you come back.
@@ACriticalDragon Oh, my TBR contains a lot of fantasy, including Sanderson, King, Pratchett and others. As well as non-fiction.
The only thing with older books is that the CGI becomes a bit dated, but that's okay :P
@@bramvandenheuvel4049 your older books have cgi??? Mine just have stop motion claymation. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@ACriticalDragon My oldest books can only be read if I hire a live pianist! :D
@@bramvandenheuvel4049 well... Well... Ummmm... Well... My oldest books can only be read in a cave, with a fire... And shadow puppets.
Nailed it. 😂😂😂
The story of Karsa is like that of a naive child becoming a man. He is more like a child then the "children" he sets out to kill. Full of children's stories, he symbolically kills the child within, breaks the chains of the lies of his grandfather to follow a path of truth, revenge, and justice.
Hi Craxan, that is a great observation. Not everyone talks about Karsa's arc as both a play on the common coming of age quest narrative, but also the subversion of Frodo's arc in LotR.
There is a lot to unpack in Karsa, even considering this one book.
Whenever I tell people that the character that HoC starts with becomes my favorite I always am afraid they're going to judge me :D
But a character can be a villain and still a favourite character... it doesn't mean that you agree with all their actions. I think that Darth Vader was a brilliant character, it doesn't mean that I want to rule the galaxy... wait.. hang on... nope, I do want to rule the galaxy... never mind.
@@ACriticalDragon My eight year old grandkid said his favorite character was Thanos. I wasn't sure if I should worry.
Then when they showed the all female line-up on the battlefield in endgame he said, "A team of girls! Give me a break!"
Again, not sure if I should worry.
Going from memory here, but beyond a single exception I can remember*, does the POV stay limited to Karsa for the entire beginning of the book?
* I recall that after Karsa leaves on his raid, his father throws out his grandfather. I think there may also have been a scene where the broken T'lan Imass appear. I wonder whether this intro could have been written solely from Karsa's limited perspective and whether anything would have been gained or lost.
Hi Jagarr, yup, there are a few short scenes that break the continuity of Karsa's POV.
But, a bit like 'Rake doesn't have a PoV in GotM' (when he has a short one in GotM while in draconic form hunting the demon) it is an overstatement for the sake of simplification.
But I do not think rewriting them in order to strictly maintain structural purity would have improved the text.
I think that the additional scenes added colour and texture, while the overall narrative trajectory was maintained.
But yes, it is a bit of a cheat... Like the analepsis in NoK.
Hi A.P., I appreciate this discussion on HoC. I particularly liked the points you bring up on Karsa, Bidithal, and Cultural Relativism (a hotly debated topic in anthropology to this day). I think Erikson explores this topic in a very careful way with the example of female genital mutilation, a very relevant problem to this day. But im wondering then, who has the right to make that judgment and act on reprehensible acts of violence. In Malazan, we have Karsa swooping in and giving Bidithal a taste of his own medicine. But in the real world you allude to how there's humans rights organization that declare female genital mutilation to be wrong but powerful governments create political ties and trade deals that make it so that female genital mutilation persist regardless of these declarations. What I'm getting at is, what aspects of societies become seen as morally reprehensible while other violent acts be seen simply as "the way of the world." For example, in real life and in Malazan, empire building is the standard, yet these processes are seen as taken for granted necessities.
Karsa's journey is one of the more interesting ones. He starts out not a hero, encounters fantastical things, really doesn't play a large part in the final battle and isn't likely to be giving any boons when he gets back.
I wonder if Mark Lawrence has read Malazan as there is a little Karsa in Jorg.
It wasn't until my reread, and likely because I was thinking about the movie, the similarities between Felisin and Alia of the Knife. Her last line in the Sci Fi movie was "I want my brother".
Regarding the scorpions, soldiers on the beach at Anzio really did have beetle fights and mule races between the shellings.
And lastly, Bidithal's poetic death. Just what kind of poetry are you reading?
And really lastly, for not watching any anime, the flaming demon urine is probably in one somewhere. Perhaps the demons are from a cold climate. The armpit would be a great place to keep them warm in the winter. But hugging would be awkward and high fives right out.
Hi Eric,
Your comments, as always, are illuminating.
Poetic as in 'poetic justice'... But check out Dante's Inferno if you are having concerns about my reading habits 😂😂😂
So I just finished this one. Amazing.
I’ll be honest, in the first chapter, I wasn’t sure I was going to like Karsa. I got interested in his story when they ran in the Forkrul trapped under that slab, and from there it just got better for me, I think that was the 1st time in this story he got his but kicked by something.
Loved the ending - I was of course expecting a major battle like we had in Memories of Ice, but I liked what we got a lot better.
I was also expecting Tavore to find out Sha’ik was her sister, but how it went down here is better I think. Having read all of Felisin’s story I feel bad for her, feel like she was just trying to survive the circumstances she finds herself in.
I feel like the Army of the Apocalypse never had much of a chance, everyone there seemed to be plotting against everyone else.
One question I had was the ending with Trull Sengar and Onrack - did anyone else end up sitting on the First Throne, or were they just successful in preventing the bad guys from doing so.
Just finished HoC, thoroughly enjoyed it.
1) Man I hate bidithal. I was worried because i didn’t think anything could happen to him that would satisfy my loathing.. but it did!🤣
2) Felisin:( That was so tragic I really thought she might reconcile with tavore. Heartbreaking.
3) Cutter and Apsalar?? I don’t know if I am supposed to understand why or where she has gone yet to be honest. Looking forward to having my questions answered.
This series gets better with every entry for me. Love the discussions gents!
Also, your point around 50ish minutes where you discuss people saying the first 80% of these books are a slog, and they prefer the action of the last couple hundred pages. Such an important point! I feel the same about how A Storm of Swords is often hailed as the best ASOIAF book; if you picked that up without reading the previous two entries, it wouldn't be much good!
I've always looked at Karsa as the inner savage. His morality is brutal in its simplicity. He is us without the constraints of society. In many cases it is appalling, but in his best moments as a character his simplicity exposes the hypocrisy of the stories we use to justify our behaviour.
Even his simplicity is deceptive, it is not the simplicity of the ignorant but of the morally weary. It's not that the Teblor, as descendants of one of the elder races, never had a complex morality but that they discarded it as a burden on them.
I always loved Karsa from the moment I started reading about him so hearing that I was supposed to hate him for being an arrogant, prideful barbarian before coming to grudgingly appreciate his perspective makes me wonder if maybe I'm broken. Maybe it's just that I'm not the kind person to judge someone for taking a course of action I wouldn't take, even one I might frown upon.
House of Chains is the best ~900 pages buildup to a battle that doesn't happen. ;)
If every book ended with a big battle, I think things would get a little predictable and boring. At least this way Erikson keeps us on our toes.
@@ACriticalDragon Sure, and it's not like there is no climax at the end. I listened to the discussion the guys from Ten Very Big Books had with S.E. about HoC and S.E. explicitly says why he decided for this kind of ending, contrasting it with MoI. I found that interesting.
@@szokocsrobert I haven't listened to that yet. I will have to check it out. Thanks for letting me know.
I'm a take it as it comes type of reader so I never felt that big confusion reading Malazan that everybody is talking about. Until I got to Karsa. At first I though, a new character, again. It will sort itself out. But it kept going and going, and I was thinking, what the hell is going on here? Am I even reading the right book? And when the big reveal finally came I was absolutely blown away. Fantastic stuff.
I did 100% forgive Karsa But I wouldn't be abale to forgive someone who did similar stuff to someone close to me. I'm fairly sure that I can only forgive Karsa because he's a fictional character. I don't think I'd be able to forgive anyone who acted this way in real life, even if it was done to someone who has nothing to do with me.
Great conversation as always. House of Chains is a special entry for me, especially in hindsight.
SERIES SPOILERS
The way the story and world absorbs and transforms the events of the Chain of Dogs is such a surreal experience for the reader and felt more impactful than the event itself for me. (Much like how the Siege of Pale opens first on its aftermath, the narrative seems to be putting emphasis on exploring the aftermath and the rippling effect of events on the people and world more than the events themselves.) The 14th having to stew and sift in the aftermath, and wonder if they can fill the hole left in the world, I found to be such compelling drama. The same could be said for when they find out about the fall of the Bridgeburners. This theme of the ones who’ve witnessed having to answer the question: “What do we do now” is paramount to the series. Most of us in our own lives won’t be the Coltaine’s or Whiskeyjack’s of the world; instead we will be the 14th’s; witnessing others, and asking ourselves the same questions. Erikson getting us to engage with these serious real-world ideas through our emotional investment is amazing.
The way Erikson has the 14th symbolically carry these two legends, signifying to us that they are their spiritual successors, is done in an emotionally resonant way that echoes for the entire rest of the story.
The real brilliance of this book is its subversive ending. There is a quote later in the series by Warleader Gall, referring to the Chain of Dogs: “They died but they won.”
In a way, I think the same could be said for the Bridgeburners; they accomplished their mission, died a heroes death, were witnessed, and left an emotional, cathartic impact on the reader. Here, with the 14th, I’d say it’s the opposite. The 14th does not fulfill their purpose with their own hands; they don’t even draw a blade come the final battle. And Tavore loses the one thing she sought to protect. What a bitter and hollow victory. The way this sets up the arc of the 14th and Tavore is just brilliant.
A big part of the emotional satisfaction of the endings of MoI and DG is the experience of shared grief. Characters witness the death of a loved one and we get to share in that feeling of connection, which is cathartic and gives a sense of resolution. Here, we don’t get that. After going on this emotional journey with Felisin, she dies and no one knows. No one is aware of the tragedy that just took place besides Lostara and Pearl. Tavore does not know what she just did. She does find out that her sister is dead, but we do not get to see her inner world of thoughts and feelings. She stands alone, looking out to the sea, and we can only look on with a quite sense of sorrow and loneliness as we wonder what to do with our lingering emotions for Felisin. The deafening silence of this scene is profound and left me not even knowing how to feel for days after finishing for the first time, and I think it’s the best kind of art that does that. Being denied that cathartic resolution, and instead leaving that tension to hang heavy over our hearts and continue to build in pressure and intensity, up until the very end of the series when it’s finally released, is the most monumentally satisfying emotional catharsis I’ve experienced.
Thank you for watching and for the incredible, thoughtful comment.
Literature, at least for me, is the art form that fully encompasses the sublime. The mind and the soul, intellect and emotion, literature is the thing that I find combines both.
So thank you for the great comment.
The fact that this series consistently plays with genre, narrative, and literary structures and techniques, as well as reader expectations, while still weaving a compelling narrative is one of the many reasons why I rate it so highly.
Did Karsa fight a shark or something for half a body? Only 21 mins in but dam this has been good.
Hi Gareth, I am glad that you enjoyed the video. Thanks for watching.
I really hated Karsa and his 2 pals in Book 1 but the development of his character was amazing
Karsa is such a great character! Books could be written about him.. wait 🤔😂
I get the comment about Erikson having personal reasons for writing in the 'on the nose' parts about a woman cooking, and Tavore being gay.
But I doubt he would do it for just that reason - and having zero background information at the time of reading I never read it that way.
Rather, despite there being no religious or hierarchical bias against women in general there still are some common gender roles - wether biological, cultural or historical doesn't matter. Raising children and domestic tasks are still prevalent roles.
As for being gay, again no religious bias helps a lot. But Tavore has a noble background, where marriage and producing heirs is still the expected thing. The commoners and soldiers might not care, even to other nobles it might be perfectly acceptable - but that doesn't remove the bias completely.
And to someone like Tavore, who has a problem with showing her personality and especially her weaknesses in public, this would matter. Maybe it is again a sign of her naivety when it comes to the 'real world', for as smart as she is she's still lived a noble's life and is more booksmart than streetsmart.
Loved your discussion once again, and your enthusiasm for this book - this is one of my favourites from a fantastic series. I love Karsa as a character - to read.. wouldn't personally wanna be anywhere near him 😂
Oh poor Felisin.. you were doomed from the start 😢
Oh, and I think you're spot on about Cotillion and the name Sorry - it is him literally apologizing to both the girl, and anyone who gets caught up in that business.
What's more, I read it as Shadowthrone recognising that immediately and empathizing with his friend - but thinking it overly sentimental. And, being who he is, never straying from his path no matter the cost to himself, his friend or anyone else.
Hi Rob, thanks for watching. I don't disagree with there being other reasons to include the lines, I just think that one of them is to help the reader see how the world is constructed and to notice that general point. Lines can have more than one use... or have you not watched the prologue videos ;)
@@ACriticalDragon
I have, I just like emphasizing that particular point 😉
@@robpaul7544 😁😁😁😁
I love this discussion, but AP didn't give Phillip any room to talk lol
Hi Andrew, I may have been a bit more boisterous in this one than normal... In my defence, Philip is more than capable of telling me to shut up. 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
I have promised him that I will try not to talk too much.
That line anlbout mogora... I don't think just because it's a "sexist free" world that gender roles / stereotypes don't exist.
Hi Bryson, thanks for watching. I agree, I just think that the line serves a purpose in highlighting the general gender equality of the world.
I understood Felisin's death differently. I got the feeling that she was just tired of it all and decided to put an end to it. Suicide by sister, so to speak.
Spoilers.
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.When I realized Dryjhna was Onrack's wife who was 'cheated' by him and Killava... another broken soul that suffered from profound maddening grief... Made me cry. I see some parallel with heartbreaking Felisin's demise... :/
Hi Franz, good to hear from you again. That is a very salient and important point, too often we see 'villain' and never think of how they got there, and I think that one of the powerful things that Erikson explores is the humanity that led to the villain, and asks us to extend compassion and empathy to them even while not insisting that we forgive them.
@@ACriticalDragon definitely! Compassion and empathy can only be understood if you can apply them to all, to every single individual. But, as you said for Karsa (just to keep an example), it does not means that we agree or his actions are accepted... we just understand. Seeing the world with the eyes of the other is something we must learn to do. And that is one of the reasons why I love Mr. Erikson's work so much. And your channel (and Phillip's) too... thank you for this videos! I am trying to see all videos, but I've soooo busy...
Never fear Franz, there is no rush nor hurry to watch the videos. They will be there for when it is convenient for you to watch them. I appreciate the support and the comments, have a fantastic weekend.
I thought it was funny how karsa was perplexed by the humans "custom" to take slaves and imprison people and in a way thinks that it is very cruel as opposed to their ways, cause this concept just doesnt exist in their culture
And yet his 'right' of sexual conquest, abhorrent to us, is viewed as perfectly normal by both him and all the female Teblor. It is a fascinating look at cultural relativism and moral relativism.
Thanks for watching and commenting. I hope that you have a great New Year.
@@ACriticalDragon Thanks :) Happy New Year to you too, loving the videos and i am slowly catching up with the spoiler talks as i work my way through the series.
about the slog complaints and "needed to be trimmed down" comments and slowburn comments, i think that's a result of the general state of entertainment media of the last few decades (the downward spiral of entertainment media if i'm being honest). i know this will come off as condescendig, as my comments mostly do, but you'd be hard pressed to convince me that popular movies, music and books of the 21st century come anywhere near the qualitay of those of the second half of the 20th. on practically any level. it's all spectacle and no supstance so it's logical that people conditioned for that sort of thing will misunderstand, or not at all understand, what eriksons books bring to the table. just like they'd not enjoy the deer hunter or straw dogs or the unfogiven while praising the mcu and getting pissed of at scorsese of saying what he said. the music aspect is so depressing i don't even want to think about it. and i know a.p. and philip are to nice to say anything bad about anyones tastes and will probably see my comment and think "what an asshole" but i have huge issues with this. and, to use the much beloved booktube word, i think it's problematic that very few people are willing to adress this because of the notion that it's not ok to question anyones perception of... anything really. we should question everything. and questioning the state of art at this moment could tell us a lot about many other things in our society, in my not so humble opinion. the fact that any discussion where someone is not agreeing about anything that's not banal is becoming taboo is worrying and suffocating. so, to finish off by being a complete jerk, to anyone that thinks that mistborn or the faithfull and the fallen or six of crows or whatever is better than malazan: you're wrong. (again a.p. sorry for doing this on your channel, sometimes i have to vent)
No worries. I don't think that the change is quite as bad as you perhaps do. Books are still here after all. We had the panic with the advent of the home television that books would die. The introduction of computer games was to be the death knell of books. The internet was going to kill books. Smart phones would kill books. And I think every new generation will have a new thing that will challenge the status quo and challenge orthodoxy, and will challenge perceived notions of narrative. But I also have faith that though styles may change and go through cycles of popularity, stories that use complex metaphor and symbolism to explore complex themes and the human condition will always have a place.
But I also think that as genres become ever more stratified and sub-divided, and we as a population become increasingly catered to for every niche desire at ever faster speeds, that we are increasingly encouraged to perceive narratives as consumables rather than as art. But, time will tell whether the pendulum will swing back, or if it will carry on a little further.
@@ACriticalDragon thanx for the reply! i agree with you completely and was never really worried about advancing tech, actually maybe had higher expectacions from it (tho now that i think about it, the effect of video games maybe did simplify narratives in other media). what i have problems with is the perception of narratives as consumables rather than art (or the notion that art should be easily consumabe). i'm mostly disappointed by the lack of recognition and understanding of the good stuff. it's hard for me to see people praising various popular fantasy (sanderson and such) and then complaining about eriksons writing in all the typical ways they do. i'm kinda new to the booktube thing and i guess i was expecting a different level of conversation. something like your channel, philips, rafs, christines and so on (and i thank you all for what you do). anyway, i hope this new malazan momentum will raise the bar in the broader bt community
I think that technology has always, and will always, drive change in narrative.
Shorter attention spans, instant gratification, elevated dopamine surges from overloading sensory perceptions, are a heady mixture to combat with the lure of something that requires time, study, and patience. Something that requires effort to interpret. Literature struggles against other narrative forms because it requires a significant time investment.
We live in a time of an accelerated pace, in which we are cramming in as much as possible, always being encouraged to consume more, all while being told that the next big thing will be here soon. So narratives that use straightforward techniques to tell (rather than show) a story become a desired, marketable form. If they become the dominant narrative approaches then their inheritors will quite frequently exacerbate those techniques and eschew the techniques that are less marketable. This generates an ouroboros that distills the most marketable techniques and styles as the art form becomes a marketable commodity for mass consumption.
Or at least, that is one possible way of looking at it.
@@ACriticalDragon straight to the heart of it!! hats off!
Karsa >> Gandalf >> Daenerys>> voldemort >> sauron>>rake>> frodo>> potter
Man this book was a real stinker until Iskaral Pust reappeared. Lol, jk, though to be honest more PUST more KRUPPE