Once again we have almost too much fun, but hopefully it is still interesting enough for everyone else. Thank you, my friend. I will even allow the bad pun in this instance.
The beak moment is where I said Malazan is the best series I ever read, I never cared about a fictional character more then beak, until I met young harrlo in toll the hounds. Beak!!!! My man
The Beak moment is wonderful, so epic and moving. It leaves me awestruck every time. I don't know if it would be of interest but there are a few people on TH-cam who have written scores for Malazan and both have done a piece called Beak's Sacrifice. I enjoyed them and thought they really capture the feel of that moment, I prefer Julian Shanahan's (The second piece) score to Malazan but in my humble opinion they're both good. th-cam.com/video/DofFx7niuVU/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/luIsb2L4Gzw/w-d-xo.html
Might sound odd but I found the Beak scene hilarious well 1min after Beak did he's thing which was both heart-breaking and glorious but then Helian woke up and not knowing what had just happened figured that everyone had dyed their hair and bronzed themselves for a joke on her(nearly wet myself at that point)! pure brilliant writing.
I’m surprised that in the discussion about Beak you guys didn’t talk about Hood’s reaction to the way his gate manifest itself for Beak. Over the hundreds of thousands of years Hood has never seen it’s like and is genuinely startled. This is the first time that we also see a completely different side of Hood. Up until this point we are given a very consistent image of him. Now that image is broken and he becomes a real character in the Book of the Fallen. The subsequent conversation between Hood and Beak is one of the most tender parts of the entire series. Also, I’d note that the difference between what Beak experiences on the other side of Hoods gate is radically different than any other report we’ve received from others who have apparently passed beyond and come back. There is just so much happening in that brief moment and I’m always staggered by how deftly it is handled by Erikson.
Fantastic chat as always. I choked up a little at Philip choking up a little. Without knowing the storyline referenced as being extraneous by the comment, for me it was the Awl. I think the support that it lends these themes being explored is outweighed by it's hampering of the pacing. It's a long book. Erikson can do so much with one line or paragraph that this devotion of so much page time to an ultimately futile and unfulfilling end to events that have little impact on the larger picture left me puzzled. The Malazan invasion is one of my favourite storylines in fantasy. The awe of Cuttle watching Fidler construct The Drum. Witnessing the sacrifice of Beak. Hellian taking over one tavern at a time. I'm like Cuttle watching his hero complete a masterpiece.
It wasn't the Awl storyline funnily enough. But I do know that a lot of people dislike the Awl storyline and think it is entirely digressive. On my first read of the book I was certainly less invested in it than I was this time around. But the point you raise about the futility of it I think is central to why the storyline is so important. So many battles, wars, and conflicts are ultimately futile, and yet so often in Fantasy, every battle is heavy with meaning and import. Every conflict is elevated to essential, and I see this as another of Erikson's explorations of the cost of battle, the cost of war, the themes of tradition and modernity in conflict, the saviour trope, civilisation versus barbarism, and many others, but viewed again from a different perspective to re-evaluate it. I really enjoyed it this time around.
@@ACriticalDragon Once again you have me re-evaluating my judgements so I appreciate that despite it's inconvenience. I think reading it again with this context in mind would give me more appreciation.
Nick, as I have said before, everyone will have their own interpretation, likes and dislikes, so I hope it adds to your experience, but it might not. If I add to your enjoyment of a text then that is great, but I am not trying to dictate to anyone how they should approach or understand the text, I just want to offer up other ways of viewing it. Have a great weekend.
“Purification is final” Also it gives fiddler yet another power up, is he like double ascended at this point? You’ve got the Tanno song, and now the sacrifice/benevolent burning of beak. Also my favorite line from this part is: “They will not let us in,” “No, but we can hide it’s shadow.” Just awesome.
Strange. I had something in the eye, when you were talking about Beak. Probably just some dust.. But then, strangely, I also had something in my throat..
Thank you for doing justice to this heartrender of a book. Two points not mentioned in your video which moved me to tears: the first: Trull watching Onrack take his first breath in Tellann, and second, polar opposite: Tool learning of Tocs death, and the weight of their friendship hitting you all at once in this moment of cruel tragedy
Hi Eli, thanks for watching. No matter how long Philip and I take, we never get through everything. So thank you for letting me know about how those events moved you.
I've never interpreted Beak as autistic. Instead in my eyes, he suffers from severe PTSD due to the abuse he suffered as a child. His recollection of the day his parents' estate burned down reads as a dissociative episode to me. We know he burned down the estate (and probably killed a bunch of people, too) in an act of self-defence gone awry, but he doesn't remember that. I had a friend who had suffered trauma as a child. She also had dissociative episodes, and she also retreated into a kind of child's persona when under stress.
I hadn't considered that perspective as I had focused on the severe physical trauma her received. I know that Philip focused more on the psychological trauma aspect. Thank you for pointing that out.
@@ACriticalDragon The human mind is a fascinating and complex thing. Which unfortunately also means that there are a lot of ways to affect it negativly.
It is certainly an area of study that I am not familiar with, so like everyone else I default to things in my experience that explain the result on the page. This would also be one of the reasons that I really enjoy interaction with people in the comments, I learn more. So thank you very much.
Hi AP. So I am listening to the chat and have about 15 minutes left. My wife and I are going on a road trip and she asks if I will be listening to boring literary analysis the whole time. I calmly explain that I only have 15 minutes left. She grumbles but agrees to allow me to finish the chat in the car. I plug my phone into the car speakers and proceed to finish the video. We get to the end and my wife asks if it is over already. I explain again that I only had 15 minutes left. She says that is too bad. So AP is Irish. Love the the Irish. So I guess we are enemies now. Wife stealer. 😢 It is amazing how Erikson tears your heart out with Beak. And he is only in the book for 30 pages.
Seth... I am sorry. I can try putting on an accent if that will help. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 I hope that you enjoyed the video regardless of my wrecking your marriage. I really am racking up the number of nemeses. The channel hasn't be going that long. Be very well and have a great weekend.
Beak made me cry and then the way Trull went out made me angry. Erikson really liked toying with our emotions in this book, it's probably in my top 3 in the series for how much impact Erikson has emotionally.
Glad you guys talked about Nimander. He became one of my favorite characters in the series here, he’s such a complex and fleshed out hero. I’m halfway through Toll the Hounds now and seeing his arc has been great. I think Nimander, Toc, and Trull are very similar to each other; the humble and reluctant hero who is good at heart. The deaths of Toc and Trull hit me really hard in this book, and those scenes were just so beautifully written. Love these videos.
Thank you, I am glad that you enjoyed it. Nimander is a fascinating character and one that eschews many of the expected or stereotypical tropes of 'hero'. It is always interesting to hear why people like certain characters over others.
Thank you for another thoughtful conversation! I really look forward to these talks as I am making my way through the book of the fallen for the first time. Hellian has become a favorite character of mine. Talk about rooting for someone who by all accounts is not a stand up citizen. I loved her pub crawl through Letheras! Fiddler had an amazing internal dialog about Hellian that I couldn't help smile while reading, "Our drunken liberator, our bloodthirsty goddess - what in Hood's name do all those people think when they see her? ... she shows up, dragging heads in a sack, and her marines break down every door in town and drag out all the ones nobody else has any reason to like."
Absolutely loved this chat. I just finished my reread of Reaper's Gale and this is where I think Erikson really hit a stride with creativity and the depth of the series. Also shout out to our boy Beak! That last few final scenes with him(protecting his family/meeting hood at the gate) had tears rolling down my face. I can't think of many authors that have dragged out that kind of reaction and made me actually cry while reading. ✌
I like the "rambly" parts. You're elaborating, delving deeper and reconnecting, emphasizing various points. I also have a tendency to give context while explaining and I personally enjoy both of your styles :) I wouldn't even mind if the videos were longer, if need be.
Thanks for these discussion videos, guys! I’m currently rereading the series myself; in fact, I’m in the middle of Toll of Hounds, at this very moment. Every time I finish a book in the series (the Fallen, but also the Malazan Novels, Path of Ascendancy series, Kharkanas & Witness), I always look up your channels to see how far you are in your discussion series 😉 Interesting notions about the use of magic and power, and the potential cost thereof! Also, poor Beak, devouring his every candle to save his loved ones… ☹ As a psychologist, I always saw Beak as an individual who has been through some traumatic experiences, with a lot of the repercussions that can eventually follow (mentally, emotionally, and socially, in particular). I suppose there could have been a certain degree of co-morbidity with physical head trauma as well, and/or autistic traits. As you guys pointed out, there is not a definite answer to the question of exactly where Beak’s difficulties derive from. I think that it is mentioned in one of his perspectives, that sometimes other mages will hug and embrace him, though he cannot fathom the reason why? I do not know if I remember that correctly? Also, I think his character made me appreciate Captain Faradan all the more! 😊
Hi Benny, thanks for watching and the comments. That moment you mention when other soldiers or mages hug him and he doesn't understand is why I think there may be a perception of autism, but as you and another commenter (Gerd) point out, the psychological trauma can be a more complete explanation. That not being my area, nor an area I have significant experience of, I will most certainly defer to your experience. It was when he described the severe beating that nearly killed him that made me think of severe neurological trauma leading to personality change as I have a passing familiarity with that, so I may have been overlooking the more compelling and obvious explanation.
Wonderful discussion! I might have gotten a bit choked up again over Beak. 🕯 I appreciate that you two took this time to go into depth in a two-part spoiler discussion. Certain themes and ideas snapped more into perspective for me listening to you two, and I’m loving this book more and more on reflection. Thanks!
What a wonderful chat! And thanks for discussing our point of divergence with the Liberty Consign as well--it was quite the surprise to hear my name pop up toward the beginning and end, and glad I could add a bit to the discussion. Beak's arc was one of the most poignant and emotional one-book character studies I've ever read, and you both definitely added to my appreciation of it through your deep exploration. I also really struggled with coming to terms with Trull's senseless murder, so your framing of that really helped as well. Thanks as always!
There was so many emotional moments in this book,but for me the one that broke me was Rhulad Sengar`s reaction of the treatment of the Tiste Edur from Sepik ,and even more,the compassion that the Errant felt after witnessing Rhulad`s pain. "Could an Elder God’s heart break?"-I dont know,but it broke mine
I finally got to view this because I finally finished my re-read of Reaper's Gale. This was a great discussion that hit on many points I loved about this book. And, there are so many more, like the rise of Tehol as local hero and so on. Thank you once again for enriching our understanding of this masterful series.
I known you say you ramble AP, but I love it! Your discussions with Phillip has helped me appreciate these books even more. I just finished Reaper's Gale and was looking forward to watching these videos. I'll be starting Toll The Hounds shortly. I'm a first time reader of this series and it's become one of my favorites.
This book definitely deserved a Part 2. Thank you for another great discussion and adding to my interpretation of the themes and ideas explored in the book. A lot more could be discussed… in Part 3? Just kidding 😁. Thanks 🙏
Oh there is still so much left unsaid and not covered. These books provide so much to talk about, analyse, and interpret. A very welcome Sisyphean task.
Thank you both for another great discussion! Aside from one being generally more well-liked than the other, I think Hellian's cull is viewed more favorably than Laseen's because Hellian is punching up the hierarchical ladder as opposed to Laseen punching down. aka who doesn't love rooting for the underdog?
Oh I agree, the perspective shift makes a huge difference, and yet it is exactly the same plan and achieves the same effect, we are just seeing it from the other perspective.
While @Philip Chase was talking about Beak, I started feeling a lump in my throat recalling him, and then Chase himself said he is struggling to hold it in. I was like Chase is kin now!!! I love your discussions the way they are and I'm glad that the video was split too; more stuff to watch :D. Had finished RG a couple of weeks back and this was one video that was pending and I loved it!!
Just finished my first read of this book, been working my way slowly through the series for the last 2 years. Such an incredible conversation and this helped me decompress it all! Thanks guys!
I really enjoyed all discussions so far (trying to catch up). Like everyone else here I loved Beak and all the candles. I also loved the funny parts of the book like the farmer deamons or the near relegious admiration of Cuttle when Fiddler was setting the cussers :)
Wow guys, great conversation. Something about this book especially that brings out a melancholy and pathos while talking about it, the beauty is real, keep up the good work
Great talk as always! Defenestration! (As made famous by ones in Prague launching the Thirty Years War) The Vietnam War imagery you mention is interesting, given that the Malazan Army is partly Roman legion and US platoons, since the Romans had their own “Vietnam” (tactical victory, strategic defeat) multiple times in the Swampy Forests in Ancient Germania.
So we go from the pubcrawl through a war to the mindblowing and emotional self-sacrifice of a true innocent. From laughter to tears, and that's just a part of one of several major storylines. If that isn't author ascendancy I don't know what is. If I recall correctly this was also the book where we meet those two demons trying their hand at farming - a contender for one of my favourite scenes ever.
There’s an interesting theme or subtlety related to power and worship that I haven’t seen mentioned, that I can’t quite summarise neatly. But it relates to the ‘grounding’ or humanising of worship. So we have gods that are brought down to the mortal realm - Fener, Errant, Mael. Meanwhile there is worship of mortals being shown: Icarium and Karsa as gods, Cuttle’s worship of Fiddler, the faith in Tavore. All of which becomes very interesting in light of what you guys discuss about the costs of power… And so you also have the notion that faith and belief make real, with the Refugium, but faith in the material world taken too far gives us the Letherii economy, which Bugg and Tehol reveal to have soggy foundations. There are some really complex dynamics at play.
Hi Mike, the themes of worship and religion are definitely something I want to explore in a dedicated video. Probably with a whole series perspective. It is an interesting topic in Fantasy in general, and Erikson and Esslemont both explore some fascinating aspects of it.
ps - i think 'defenestration' is the big word describing getting thrown out a window. Ran into that word somewhere before, I forgot where. I think fenestration is an architectural term for an opening in a structure.
the scenes with the Malazan marines were great. I liked how the book told us on more than one occasion that this was how the Marines were originally designed to be used. Like special forces units that can be dropped in somewhere and operate without much outside support. Also enjoyed that bit where Fiddler did the 'drum' and that younger marine was 'fanboying' for lack of a better term. One question I did have was were the K'Chain C'hemalle farmers that Fiddler's group encountered the same as the two that were helping out redmask? I was thinking different as I thought the two Fiddler and company encoutered got messed up.
Still at the middle but as for Sinn you where talking of her behavior as a reproduction of Magic, but in the previous books we also heard that she was abused as a kid and she burned the place when she ran away that may also be the reason for her behavior.
Hi Shmuel, that is an excellent point, and it stands as a natural comparison to Beak and as a contrast to some of the other figures. I am looking forward to a much longer discussion of Sinn when we get to the last books.
This is my first read through of Malazan and after RG I don’t know if I can reread the series this book broke my heart. Beaks death sequence was so beautiful yet I was sobbing when he spoke with hood. Then SE took Trull away from us at the end. Who was my favorite character. What a great book amazing series can’t wait to start TTH
yeah, alcohol in the real world is also far too normalized and the negative effects played down. I my final year in the equivalent of highschool I wrote a 15 page long paper instead of a final exam about the effects of alcohol on the body. Needless to say apart from a little amaretto in a hot chocolate I haven't consumed alcohol in years...
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion. Just one minor detail I am curious about: does Rud Elalle have anything to do with Shurq Elalle? They could hardly be more remote, so I was wondering for a long time during the second half of the book if a connection was going to be revealed.
I honestly have no idea. I can always ask Erikson, but I imagine he will reply that plenty of people in our world share names, why wouldn't it happen in Malazan. But I can ask.
@@ACriticalDragon You're right, that's a perfectly valid reason. It's just that I've got used to trying to find points of connection and there are always more clues than I can pick up during this first read, so I might be seeing patterns even where there are none. :) Thanks for your answer.
@@szokocsrobert 4 months late but I just finished RG and I've been binging supplemental material (like this video lol). It's something like this: Shurq's great uncle was involved in a Meckros city. Maybe his ship crashed into one or something? This was down south, like far southwest part of the Lether continent. Then the Meckros city crashed and disappeared. Or something. Now, when Rud Elalle is first introduced (in Midnight Tides?) it's mentioned that there is a wrecked Meckros city there. He was born in it or something? So this Meckros city is in this illusory/fragment of Tellann thing that Rud has grown up in, where we see him and all the other Imass, etc, here in RG. There's small disparate threads that you can put together to say "this was the same Meckros city" and then the assumption is that the name Elalle was on the ship (he was a merchant or something?) and so someone just saw that and used it for Rud's name. Again -- something like that lol. Sorry this isn't super clear but it's close at least. And for me, it was cool to hear this but honestly I was a little disappointed there wasn't more of a direct connection. Like sure, the little breadcrumbs are really cool, but from the MOMENT we met Rud Elalle I was like "wait that's Shurq's last name, how are they related???" And that it turns out they're... *not*. Okay Steve whatever you say man lmao
@@slidenaway Thanks! I've been listening to the Ten Very Big Books podcast and they recently covered RG. They were wondering about this too and the host Peter mentioned this Meckros city connection. Interesting easter egg but I was expecting something bigger too ;D
@@szokocsrobert I've been listening too, that's actually where I got this detail! Which means you already knew this, but when you commented originally, they hadn't got to that part yet. Ah well I tried to help ;) And lemme tell you, I am about to have a rough time finishing the series without that damn podcast... I'm using the Tor reread instead, so far so good. But it's not the same, I wanna hear Peter and India and Josh and AJ!!! Ughhhhhhhhhhh weird withdrawals lmao
about sinn, it's not the power that drove her insane, it was the trauma she experienced during the seven cities rebellion. it was sad to see her go batshit crazy like that EDIT: i see somebody already pointed that out but i'll let my comment stand anyway :/
Then again, we have seen other people recover from trauma. Seren Pedac, for instance, uses magic to help heal from trauma, but Sinn, like Phaed, is truly broken by her trauma, and in Sinn's case I think that the magic worsens it.
@@ACriticalDragon true, tho tellan doesn't seem like it would have a soothing effect on a person. i read it as the insanity caused by the trauma making her more powerful with tellan, and tellan adding fuel to the fire with her insanity. but it's been a while since i read it so i might be misremembering. on the other hand, kurald galain could be soothing, kinda, i guess, and phaed was a psycho. glad she's gone :D
Hi Trip, that is an interesting point. I hadn't consider the nature of the different warrens in how that might have a different psychological effect. I think that you are right, and I think that the trauma is at the heart of Sinn's issues. It is just interesting that so often magic is destructive power and it is rarely presented as a healing or beautiful thing for the wielder. We know that Denul can heal, but for all that the magic inspires awe, there is less of a sense of beautiful wonder.
@@ACriticalDragon SPOILERS for the rest of the series - - - it was really sad to see how it turned out for sinn, i kept hoping she'd turn it around but it was kinda clear she wouldn't. i think she is brilliantly written, with all her rage and evil, all i could feel for her was sadness and regret :/ and that's a great point about magic, there's even an unpleasant smell to it often, so definitely no beautiful wonder there :) and specifically denul, healing was described as a sort of a trauma if i'm remembering it right (maybe that's why wj wasn't so keen on fixing that knee)
@@ACriticalDragon Interesting about how the warrens might affect the adept. Or perhaps it is the person's nature that creates the affinity for the warren? Was Iskaral Pust always that crazy? And in general healing magic is boring. It is the last person who shows up has to run the cleric in the gaming group.
Another aspect that the Patriotist story line brings is that it puts a face on the Letheri debt holders (?). Before you had only the perspective of the indebted but no adversary. Without them, who are Tehol and others actually rebelling against? It also had not occurred to me that the Awl/Redmask storyline was a way split the Letheri forces. His guardians were still a mystery at this point but tie in to several other items yet to come. One difference between the Great Pub Crawl Purge (putsch?) and that of Lasseen is that in the latter you are provided both sides and to feel sympathy for the nobles. In the former, you have been shown how despicable the money lenders are from the perspective of the indebted. But were they? Lots of historical precedent for the masses, or nobility, turning on the moneylenders for less than altruistic reasons.
Those are great points, Eric. Thanks for adding to the collective, we will be collecting your meat suit for assimilation soon. You will join us. There is no escape.
Everyone hates the Errant for what he does (nudging) to Trull but as the text says "he was what he was". It's also hard to remember that those nudges may seem pointless or unnecessary to us but may have far reaching implications that we can't see or fathom. For instance if the Errant hadn't killed a certain Jaghut then there wouldn't have been a war on death, no army of the dead, and thus nobody to fight chaos to save the gate of darkness. So those nudges while seemingly cruel could serve the greater good in some manner.
That is an interesting point, but that doesn't mean that we have to excuse or like his actions. Evil actions remain evil even if ultimately something good can come from them.
I knew Beak was going to die as soon as there was the scene where Faradan Sort tells him to rest and he tells her he would if he could, and he loves her but the candles wont go out. And every damn scene with him after that i was an absolute mess.
The Malazan marines way of doing things and the leeway they get feels a lot like special forces in modern armies. Correct me if I'm wrong but we almost never (if at all) get a sense of how the so called regular army, which will be the balk of the army, operates.
34:00 I think I'm the only one that dislikes and even hates Hellian. Like she's drunk and lucky. That's it she even in the fighting in the village when Badan Gruk's squad came to help them out; she really would have liked to drink rather than help her squad that was in the late Factor's house where the roof collapsed in on them (tho no one died miracliously)
Hellian is a complex character. On first glance she is very much a comedic character and played for laughs, but her character goes so much deeper with elements of PTSD, and self-medication with alcohol as a method to try to deal with her fears. Plus, there are also those aspects concerning those darker moments dealing with addiction. So I think there is a lot more nuance and depth to her character than we generally discuss, and we often overlook because we focus on her comedic role and the surface level humour and luck.
I see Hellian as being an opposite to Tavore. Tavore always seems to be making sensible decisions based on the situation, but it always goes sideways and her people doubt her. Hellian seems to be making the simplest choices (and often selfish ones) but they always work out well, and she is hailed as a genius. Its a funny contrast.
![Spoiler Chat: Reaper's Gale (Book 07 Malazan Book of the Fallen) with Philip Chase [Part One]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1BsOXJI_6a4/mqdefault.jpg)
One of my favorite chats ever! Especially since we covered one of the Beak moments in The Malazan Book of the Fallen! Thank you, my friend!
Once again we have almost too much fun, but hopefully it is still interesting enough for everyone else. Thank you, my friend. I will even allow the bad pun in this instance.
The beak moment is where I said Malazan is the best series I ever read, I never cared about a fictional character more then beak, until I met young harrlo in toll the hounds.
Beak!!!! My man
The Beak moment is wonderful, so epic and moving.
It leaves me awestruck every time.
I don't know if it would be of interest but there are a few people on TH-cam who have written scores for Malazan and both have done a piece called Beak's Sacrifice.
I enjoyed them and thought they really capture the feel of that moment, I prefer Julian Shanahan's (The second piece) score to Malazan but in my humble opinion they're both good.
th-cam.com/video/DofFx7niuVU/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/luIsb2L4Gzw/w-d-xo.html
Might sound odd but I found the Beak scene hilarious well 1min after Beak did he's thing which was both heart-breaking and glorious but then Helian woke up and not knowing what had just happened figured that everyone had dyed their hair and bronzed themselves for a joke on her(nearly wet myself at that point)! pure brilliant writing.
That is a great point about Erikson's juxtaposition of tragedy and comedy. It is a really nice observation, thanks Feral.
I’m surprised that in the discussion about Beak you guys didn’t talk about Hood’s reaction to the way his gate manifest itself for Beak. Over the hundreds of thousands of years Hood has never seen it’s like and is genuinely startled. This is the first time that we also see a completely different side of Hood. Up until this point we are given a very consistent image of him. Now that image is broken and he becomes a real character in the Book of the Fallen. The subsequent conversation between Hood and Beak is one of the most tender parts of the entire series. Also, I’d note that the difference between what Beak experiences on the other side of Hoods gate is radically different than any other report we’ve received from others who have apparently passed beyond and come back. There is just so much happening in that brief moment and I’m always staggered by how deftly it is handled by Erikson.
Hi Gabriel, that is such a beautiful moment in the book.
@@ACriticalDragon I could be wrong, but I think it also sets up the possibility for certain events in later books.
Fantastic chat as always. I choked up a little at Philip choking up a little.
Without knowing the storyline referenced as being extraneous by the comment, for me it was the Awl. I think the support that it lends these themes being explored is outweighed by it's hampering of the pacing. It's a long book. Erikson can do so much with one line or paragraph that this devotion of so much page time to an ultimately futile and unfulfilling end to events that have little impact on the larger picture left me puzzled.
The Malazan invasion is one of my favourite storylines in fantasy. The awe of Cuttle watching Fidler construct The Drum. Witnessing the sacrifice of Beak. Hellian taking over one tavern at a time.
I'm like Cuttle watching his hero complete a masterpiece.
It wasn't the Awl storyline funnily enough. But I do know that a lot of people dislike the Awl storyline and think it is entirely digressive. On my first read of the book I was certainly less invested in it than I was this time around. But the point you raise about the futility of it I think is central to why the storyline is so important. So many battles, wars, and conflicts are ultimately futile, and yet so often in Fantasy, every battle is heavy with meaning and import. Every conflict is elevated to essential, and I see this as another of Erikson's explorations of the cost of battle, the cost of war, the themes of tradition and modernity in conflict, the saviour trope, civilisation versus barbarism, and many others, but viewed again from a different perspective to re-evaluate it. I really enjoyed it this time around.
@@ACriticalDragon Once again you have me re-evaluating my judgements so I appreciate that despite it's inconvenience. I think reading it again with this context in mind would give me more appreciation.
Nick, as I have said before, everyone will have their own interpretation, likes and dislikes, so I hope it adds to your experience, but it might not. If I add to your enjoyment of a text then that is great, but I am not trying to dictate to anyone how they should approach or understand the text, I just want to offer up other ways of viewing it.
Have a great weekend.
“Purification is final”
Also it gives fiddler yet another power up, is he like double ascended at this point? You’ve got the Tanno song, and now the sacrifice/benevolent burning of beak.
Also my favorite line from this part is:
“They will not let us in,”
“No, but we can hide it’s shadow.”
Just awesome.
Double secret ascendancy is the best ascendancy.
Strange. I had something in the eye, when you were talking about Beak. Probably just some dust.. But then, strangely, I also had something in my throat..
A lot of that was going around when we discussed Beak. Something to do with allergies, I believe.
Thank you for doing justice to this heartrender of a book. Two points not mentioned in your video which moved me to tears: the first: Trull watching Onrack take his first breath in Tellann, and second, polar opposite: Tool learning of Tocs death, and the weight of their friendship hitting you all at once in this moment of cruel tragedy
Hi Eli, thanks for watching. No matter how long Philip and I take, we never get through everything. So thank you for letting me know about how those events moved you.
I've never interpreted Beak as autistic. Instead in my eyes, he suffers from severe PTSD due to the abuse he suffered as a child.
His recollection of the day his parents' estate burned down reads as a dissociative episode to me. We know he burned down the estate (and probably killed a bunch of people, too) in an act of self-defence gone awry, but he doesn't remember that.
I had a friend who had suffered trauma as a child. She also had dissociative episodes, and she also retreated into a kind of child's persona when under stress.
I hadn't considered that perspective as I had focused on the severe physical trauma her received. I know that Philip focused more on the psychological trauma aspect. Thank you for pointing that out.
@@ACriticalDragon The human mind is a fascinating and complex thing. Which unfortunately also means that there are a lot of ways to affect it negativly.
It is certainly an area of study that I am not familiar with, so like everyone else I default to things in my experience that explain the result on the page. This would also be one of the reasons that I really enjoy interaction with people in the comments, I learn more. So thank you very much.
Hi AP. So I am listening to the chat and have about 15 minutes left. My wife and I are going on a road trip and she asks if I will be listening to boring literary analysis the whole time. I calmly explain that I only have 15 minutes left. She grumbles but agrees to allow me to finish the chat in the car. I plug my phone into the car speakers and proceed to finish the video. We get to the end and my wife asks if it is over already. I explain again that I only had 15 minutes left. She says that is too bad. So AP is Irish. Love the the Irish. So I guess we are enemies now. Wife stealer. 😢
It is amazing how Erikson tears your heart out with Beak. And he is only in the book for 30 pages.
Seth... I am sorry. I can try putting on an accent if that will help. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I hope that you enjoyed the video regardless of my wrecking your marriage. I really am racking up the number of nemeses. The channel hasn't be going that long.
Be very well and have a great weekend.
@@ACriticalDragon I forgive you AP. It is a very pleasant accent after all. 😁👍
Beak made me cry and then the way Trull went out made me angry. Erikson really liked toying with our emotions in this book, it's probably in my top 3 in the series for how much impact Erikson has emotionally.
Some books are there to make us laugh, and others to make us cry. I quite enjoy the fact that I can do both in Malazan. Thanks for watching.
Glad you guys talked about Nimander. He became one of my favorite characters in the series here, he’s such a complex and fleshed out hero. I’m halfway through Toll the Hounds now and seeing his arc has been great. I think Nimander, Toc, and Trull are very similar to each other; the humble and reluctant hero who is good at heart. The deaths of Toc and Trull hit me really hard in this book, and those scenes were just so beautifully written.
Love these videos.
Thank you, I am glad that you enjoyed it.
Nimander is a fascinating character and one that eschews many of the expected or stereotypical tropes of 'hero'. It is always interesting to hear why people like certain characters over others.
Thank you for another thoughtful conversation! I really look forward to these talks as I am making my way through the book of the fallen for the first time.
Hellian has become a favorite character of mine. Talk about rooting for someone who by all accounts is not a stand up citizen. I loved her pub crawl through Letheras! Fiddler had an amazing internal dialog about Hellian that I couldn't help smile while reading, "Our drunken liberator, our bloodthirsty goddess - what in Hood's name do all those people think when they see her? ... she shows up, dragging heads in a sack, and her marines break down every door in town and drag out all the ones nobody else has any reason to like."
Absolutely loved this chat. I just finished my reread of Reaper's Gale and this is where I think Erikson really hit a stride with creativity and the depth of the series. Also shout out to our boy Beak! That last few final scenes with him(protecting his family/meeting hood at the gate) had tears rolling down my face. I can't think of many authors that have dragged out that kind of reaction and made me actually cry while reading. ✌
I am happy that you enjoyed it, Ryan.
Thanks for watching.
Beak's storyline is one that a lot of readers seem to really connect with.
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I like the "rambly" parts. You're elaborating, delving deeper and reconnecting, emphasizing various points. I also have a tendency to give context while explaining and I personally enjoy both of your styles :) I wouldn't even mind if the videos were longer, if need be.
Thanks Marc. You will never be short of rambling videos on this channel. I have never met a narrative that I didn't enjoy meandering around.
Thanks for these discussion videos, guys!
I’m currently rereading the series myself; in fact, I’m in the middle of Toll of Hounds, at this very moment.
Every time I finish a book in the series (the Fallen, but also the Malazan Novels, Path of Ascendancy series, Kharkanas & Witness), I always look up your channels to see how far you are in your discussion series 😉
Interesting notions about the use of magic and power, and the potential cost thereof!
Also, poor Beak, devouring his every candle to save his loved ones… ☹
As a psychologist, I always saw Beak as an individual who has been through some traumatic experiences, with a lot of the repercussions that can eventually follow (mentally, emotionally, and socially, in particular). I suppose there could have been a certain degree of co-morbidity with physical head trauma as well, and/or autistic traits.
As you guys pointed out, there is not a definite answer to the question of exactly where Beak’s difficulties derive from.
I think that it is mentioned in one of his perspectives, that sometimes other mages will hug and embrace him, though he cannot fathom the reason why? I do not know if I remember that correctly?
Also, I think his character made me appreciate Captain Faradan all the more! 😊
Hi Benny, thanks for watching and the comments. That moment you mention when other soldiers or mages hug him and he doesn't understand is why I think there may be a perception of autism, but as you and another commenter (Gerd) point out, the psychological trauma can be a more complete explanation. That not being my area, nor an area I have significant experience of, I will most certainly defer to your experience.
It was when he described the severe beating that nearly killed him that made me think of severe neurological trauma leading to personality change as I have a passing familiarity with that, so I may have been overlooking the more compelling and obvious explanation.
Wonderful discussion! I might have gotten a bit choked up again over Beak. 🕯 I appreciate that you two took this time to go into depth in a two-part spoiler discussion. Certain themes and ideas snapped more into perspective for me listening to you two, and I’m loving this book more and more on reflection. Thanks!
I am very glad that you enjoyed it, Johanna.
What a wonderful chat! And thanks for discussing our point of divergence with the Liberty Consign as well--it was quite the surprise to hear my name pop up toward the beginning and end, and glad I could add a bit to the discussion.
Beak's arc was one of the most poignant and emotional one-book character studies I've ever read, and you both definitely added to my appreciation of it through your deep exploration. I also really struggled with coming to terms with Trull's senseless murder, so your framing of that really helped as well. Thanks as always!
I am glad that you enjoyed the video.
It is great when we get to include points of view from other perspectives.
There was so many emotional moments in this book,but for me the one that broke me was Rhulad Sengar`s reaction of the treatment of the Tiste Edur from Sepik ,and even more,the compassion that the Errant felt after witnessing Rhulad`s pain. "Could an Elder God’s heart break?"-I dont know,but it broke mine
I finally got to view this because I finally finished my re-read of Reaper's Gale. This was a great discussion that hit on many points I loved about this book. And, there are so many more, like the rise of Tehol as local hero and so on. Thank you once again for enriching our understanding of this masterful series.
I known you say you ramble AP, but I love it! Your discussions with Phillip has helped me appreciate these books even more. I just finished Reaper's Gale and was looking forward to watching these videos. I'll be starting Toll The Hounds shortly. I'm a first time reader of this series and it's become one of my favorites.
This book definitely deserved a Part 2. Thank you for another great discussion and adding to my interpretation of the themes and ideas explored in the book. A lot more could be discussed… in Part 3? Just kidding 😁. Thanks 🙏
Oh there is still so much left unsaid and not covered. These books provide so much to talk about, analyse, and interpret. A very welcome Sisyphean task.
Thank you both for another great discussion! Aside from one being generally more well-liked than the other, I think Hellian's cull is viewed more favorably than Laseen's because Hellian is punching up the hierarchical ladder as opposed to Laseen punching down. aka who doesn't love rooting for the underdog?
Oh I agree, the perspective shift makes a huge difference, and yet it is exactly the same plan and achieves the same effect, we are just seeing it from the other perspective.
While @Philip Chase was talking about Beak, I started feeling a lump in my throat recalling him, and then Chase himself said he is struggling to hold it in. I was like Chase is kin now!!!
I love your discussions the way they are and I'm glad that the video was split too; more stuff to watch :D. Had finished RG a couple of weeks back and this was one video that was pending and I loved it!!
I just spoke to Erikson about Beak and will try to get that video edited an up soon.
Woah, awesome! Looking forward to it 😍
Just finished my first read of this book, been working my way slowly through the series for the last 2 years. Such an incredible conversation and this helped me decompress it all! Thanks guys!
I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion. Thanks for watching.
I really enjoyed all discussions so far (trying to catch up). Like everyone else here I loved Beak and all the candles. I also loved the funny parts of the book like the farmer deamons or the near relegious admiration of Cuttle when Fiddler was setting the cussers :)
The demon farmers were a wonderful interlude. I really enjoy this book. Thanks for watching, Filip.
What a fantastic discussion.You bring so much more meaning out of this book Thanks for sharing ;)
Wow guys, great conversation. Something about this book especially that brings out a melancholy and pathos while talking about it, the beauty is real, keep up the good work
Very glad that you enjoyed it. Thank you for watching. Tragedies in epic fantasy have become something of a rarity.
Streamed tears during the Beak discussion.
You were not alone in that. Poor Beak. It must be allergy season or something, lots of red eyes.
Great talk as always!
Defenestration! (As made famous by ones in Prague launching the Thirty Years War)
The Vietnam War imagery you mention is interesting, given that the Malazan Army is partly Roman legion and US platoons, since the Romans had their own “Vietnam” (tactical victory, strategic defeat) multiple times in the Swampy Forests in Ancient Germania.
Thanks Mac.
So we go from the pubcrawl through a war to the mindblowing and emotional self-sacrifice of a true innocent. From laughter to tears, and that's just a part of one of several major storylines. If that isn't author ascendancy I don't know what is.
If I recall correctly this was also the book where we meet those two demons trying their hand at farming - a contender for one of my favourite scenes ever.
The farming demon nobles are hilarious. I am still impressed how much absurd comedy gets worked into the series and it still feels integrated.
I randomly remembered this the other day, and it made my entire day. The comedy Erikson made seem natural is crazy.
There’s an interesting theme or subtlety related to power and worship that I haven’t seen mentioned, that I can’t quite summarise neatly. But it relates to the ‘grounding’ or humanising of worship. So we have gods that are brought down to the mortal realm - Fener, Errant, Mael. Meanwhile there is worship of mortals being shown: Icarium and Karsa as gods, Cuttle’s worship of Fiddler, the faith in Tavore. All of which becomes very interesting in light of what you guys discuss about the costs of power…
And so you also have the notion that faith and belief make real, with the Refugium, but faith in the material world taken too far gives us the Letherii economy, which Bugg and Tehol reveal to have soggy foundations. There are some really complex dynamics at play.
Hi Mike, the themes of worship and religion are definitely something I want to explore in a dedicated video. Probably with a whole series perspective. It is an interesting topic in Fantasy in general, and Erikson and Esslemont both explore some fascinating aspects of it.
The unnamed Toblekai who gave beak his athema is one of my favorite characters. We never meat.
Great video!
Thanks, Tai. I am glad that you enjoyed it.
ps - i think 'defenestration' is the big word describing getting thrown out a window. Ran into that word somewhere before, I forgot where. I think fenestration is an architectural term for an opening in a structure.
It comes from the French for window. I seem to recall that at least one English noble got chucked out a window.
the scenes with the Malazan marines were great. I liked how the book told us on more than one occasion that this was how the Marines were originally designed to be used. Like special forces units that can be dropped in somewhere and operate without much outside support. Also enjoyed that bit where Fiddler did the 'drum' and that younger marine was 'fanboying' for lack of a better term. One question I did have was were the K'Chain C'hemalle farmers that Fiddler's group encountered the same as the two that were helping out redmask? I was thinking different as I thought the two Fiddler and company encoutered got messed up.
The 'farmers' were demons, not Chemalle.
Still at the middle but as for Sinn you where talking of her behavior as a reproduction of Magic, but in the previous books we also heard that she was abused as a kid and she burned the place when she ran away that may also be the reason for her behavior.
Hi Shmuel, that is an excellent point, and it stands as a natural comparison to Beak and as a contrast to some of the other figures. I am looking forward to a much longer discussion of Sinn when we get to the last books.
This is my first read through of Malazan and after RG I don’t know if I can reread the series this book broke my heart. Beaks death sequence was so beautiful yet I was sobbing when he spoke with hood. Then SE took Trull away from us at the end. Who was my favorite character. What a great book amazing series can’t wait to start TTH
The level of glee Hellian invokes in some readers does disturb me a bit, especially in this book. I can’t deny she is funny though.
I think that Quick Jen's video on the subject is really excellent. th-cam.com/video/AieUxsm22Rk/w-d-xo.html
yeah, alcohol in the real world is also far too normalized and the negative effects played down. I my final year in the equivalent of highschool I wrote a 15 page long paper instead of a final exam about the effects of alcohol on the body. Needless to say apart from a little amaretto in a hot chocolate I haven't consumed alcohol in years...
Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion.
Just one minor detail I am curious about: does Rud Elalle have anything to do with Shurq Elalle? They could hardly be more remote, so I was wondering for a long time during the second half of the book if a connection was going to be revealed.
I honestly have no idea. I can always ask Erikson, but I imagine he will reply that plenty of people in our world share names, why wouldn't it happen in Malazan. But I can ask.
@@ACriticalDragon You're right, that's a perfectly valid reason. It's just that I've got used to trying to find points of connection and there are always more clues than I can pick up during this first read, so I might be seeing patterns even where there are none. :) Thanks for your answer.
@@szokocsrobert 4 months late but I just finished RG and I've been binging supplemental material (like this video lol). It's something like this:
Shurq's great uncle was involved in a Meckros city. Maybe his ship crashed into one or something? This was down south, like far southwest part of the Lether continent. Then the Meckros city crashed and disappeared. Or something.
Now, when Rud Elalle is first introduced (in Midnight Tides?) it's mentioned that there is a wrecked Meckros city there. He was born in it or something? So this Meckros city is in this illusory/fragment of Tellann thing that Rud has grown up in, where we see him and all the other Imass, etc, here in RG.
There's small disparate threads that you can put together to say "this was the same Meckros city" and then the assumption is that the name Elalle was on the ship (he was a merchant or something?) and so someone just saw that and used it for Rud's name. Again -- something like that lol.
Sorry this isn't super clear but it's close at least. And for me, it was cool to hear this but honestly I was a little disappointed there wasn't more of a direct connection. Like sure, the little breadcrumbs are really cool, but from the MOMENT we met Rud Elalle I was like "wait that's Shurq's last name, how are they related???" And that it turns out they're... *not*. Okay Steve whatever you say man lmao
@@slidenaway Thanks! I've been listening to the Ten Very Big Books podcast and they recently covered RG. They were wondering about this too and the host Peter mentioned this Meckros city connection. Interesting easter egg but I was expecting something bigger too ;D
@@szokocsrobert I've been listening too, that's actually where I got this detail! Which means you already knew this, but when you commented originally, they hadn't got to that part yet. Ah well I tried to help ;)
And lemme tell you, I am about to have a rough time finishing the series without that damn podcast... I'm using the Tor reread instead, so far so good. But it's not the same, I wanna hear Peter and India and Josh and AJ!!! Ughhhhhhhhhhh weird withdrawals lmao
about sinn, it's not the power that drove her insane, it was the trauma she experienced during the seven cities rebellion. it was sad to see her go batshit crazy like that
EDIT: i see somebody already pointed that out but i'll let my comment stand anyway :/
Then again, we have seen other people recover from trauma. Seren Pedac, for instance, uses magic to help heal from trauma, but Sinn, like Phaed, is truly broken by her trauma, and in Sinn's case I think that the magic worsens it.
@@ACriticalDragon true, tho tellan doesn't seem like it would have a soothing effect on a person. i read it as the insanity caused by the trauma making her more powerful with tellan, and tellan adding fuel to the fire with her insanity. but it's been a while since i read it so i might be misremembering. on the other hand, kurald galain could be soothing, kinda, i guess, and phaed was a psycho. glad she's gone :D
Hi Trip, that is an interesting point. I hadn't consider the nature of the different warrens in how that might have a different psychological effect. I think that you are right, and I think that the trauma is at the heart of Sinn's issues. It is just interesting that so often magic is destructive power and it is rarely presented as a healing or beautiful thing for the wielder. We know that Denul can heal, but for all that the magic inspires awe, there is less of a sense of beautiful wonder.
@@ACriticalDragon SPOILERS for the rest of the series
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it was really sad to see how it turned out for sinn, i kept hoping she'd turn it around but it was kinda clear she wouldn't. i think she is brilliantly written, with all her rage and evil, all i could feel for her was sadness and regret :/ and that's a great point about magic, there's even an unpleasant smell to it often, so definitely no beautiful wonder there :) and specifically denul, healing was described as a sort of a trauma if i'm remembering it right (maybe that's why wj wasn't so keen on fixing that knee)
@@ACriticalDragon Interesting about how the warrens might affect the adept. Or perhaps it is the person's nature that creates the affinity for the warren? Was Iskaral Pust always that crazy?
And in general healing magic is boring. It is the last person who shows up has to run the cleric in the gaming group.
Another aspect that the Patriotist story line brings is that it puts a face on the Letheri debt holders (?). Before you had only the perspective of the indebted but no adversary. Without them, who are Tehol and others actually rebelling against?
It also had not occurred to me that the Awl/Redmask storyline was a way split the Letheri forces. His guardians were still a mystery at this point but tie in to several other items yet to come.
One difference between the Great Pub Crawl Purge (putsch?) and that of Lasseen is that in the latter you are provided both sides and to feel sympathy for the nobles. In the former, you have been shown how despicable the money lenders are from the perspective of the indebted. But were they? Lots of historical precedent for the masses, or nobility, turning on the moneylenders for less than altruistic reasons.
Those are great points, Eric. Thanks for adding to the collective, we will be collecting your meat suit for assimilation soon. You will join us. There is no escape.
@@ACriticalDragon My journey to the Diegetic Side is almost complete.
Beak!
We still need to have that Beak talk, Iskar.
@@ACriticalDragon this was even better!
Everyone hates the Errant for what he does (nudging) to Trull but as the text says "he was what he was". It's also hard to remember that those nudges may seem pointless or unnecessary to us but may have far reaching implications that we can't see or fathom. For instance if the Errant hadn't killed a certain Jaghut then there wouldn't have been a war on death, no army of the dead, and thus nobody to fight chaos to save the gate of darkness. So those nudges while seemingly cruel could serve the greater good in some manner.
That is an interesting point, but that doesn't mean that we have to excuse or like his actions. Evil actions remain evil even if ultimately something good can come from them.
I'm still not ready to talk about Beak😞
@@A.Campbell 🕯🕯🕯
Beak is totally the MVP of the book
Poor Beak.
I knew Beak was going to die as soon as there was the scene where Faradan Sort tells him to rest and he tells her he would if he could, and he loves her but the candles wont go out. And every damn scene with him after that i was an absolute mess.
The Malazan marines way of doing things and the leeway they get feels a lot like special forces in modern armies. Correct me if I'm wrong but we almost never (if at all) get a sense of how the so called regular army, which will be the balk of the army, operates.
34:00 I think I'm the only one that dislikes and even hates Hellian. Like she's drunk and lucky. That's it she even in the fighting in the village when Badan Gruk's squad came to help them out; she really would have liked to drink rather than help her squad that was in the late Factor's house where the roof collapsed in on them (tho no one died miracliously)
Hellian is a complex character. On first glance she is very much a comedic character and played for laughs, but her character goes so much deeper with elements of PTSD, and self-medication with alcohol as a method to try to deal with her fears. Plus, there are also those aspects concerning those darker moments dealing with addiction. So I think there is a lot more nuance and depth to her character than we generally discuss, and we often overlook because we focus on her comedic role and the surface level humour and luck.
@@ACriticalDragon come on, let me hate characters in peace :D
I see Hellian as being an opposite to Tavore. Tavore always seems to be making sensible decisions based on the situation, but it always goes sideways and her people doubt her. Hellian seems to be making the simplest choices (and often selfish ones) but they always work out well, and she is hailed as a genius. Its a funny contrast.