Thank you for yet another fun, enlightening, and awesome chat, my friend! We never manage to discuss everything, but what we do manage to discuss has deepened my love for this incredible series every time. More fireballs to come!
While reading this book, especially after the entire firestorm in Y Ghatan, I didn't feel Erikson could actually top the events of that scene in the latter half of the book - Fiddler's dirge is a fantastic callback to not only the people who have died in YGhatan but all the people who have died so far in the series - a moving, cinematic, emotional moment that earns this series its name -The Book of the Fallen. I'm so glad i could read something as wonderful as this in my lifetime.
The dirge is great. One of the things that I truly enjoy about 'good' books is that they show me what I didn't realise I wanted. Of course, it doesn't always 'land' for every reader but I have so much respect for authors that reach for new things instead of reusing the same old tired structures and formulae.
I love the idea of Fiddler's Dirge being similar to his Deck readings. It makes his sudden fiddling skills a lot more credible, since we never see him practice the damn thing. But having it be from the same magical source that makes him an adept of the Deck is a wonderful interpretation. The entire scene with Fiddler's Dirge might be my favorite section in the entire series. Even though the actual music Fiddler plays isn't described, I think the text itself shows exactly how it crescendos and gets more frantic and even desperate as it goes on. And then at the end of the section after he plays the piece about the spider (I think he said it's the only thing he actually knows how to play) we get these lines that I just love: "The four men laughed. Then fell silent once more."
If I remember correctly, in one of the earlier books, one of the Bridgeburners claims that Fiddler can't actually play his fiddle. To me, it was even implied that the reason his fiddles always end up broken almost instantly is because people break it to keep him from playing it. At the point, the implication is that they do this because he is so bad at it, but maybe they are just afraid of what might happen. After all, his readings of the deck don't always go exactly well either.
I love your interpretation of how the scenes and the music are interconnected. That was how I felt about those sequences. The music, to me at least, was interwoven through it all. And those are great lines.
@@ACriticalDragon Leave it up to Erickson to put a soundtrack in a book. Much like the ride of Faramir where there was no sound and just the singing with the action in slow motion.
@@ACriticalDragon Fascinating theory. The more mundane story behind is that Google wouldn't let me use just Niflrog. So I had to tell them my name was O and my last name was Niflrog. Which isn't so Farfetched, my real name IS Oscar :-P But Irish Jaghut sounds sooo much more interesting 😂
@@ACriticalDragon why doesn't anyone take them seriously :'( but seriously, i couldn't get enough of them. and i really do think that a story about those two would be next level crazy (i'm pretty sure you'd like it too :p )
This is a fantastic book and the discussion was compelling today for sure. Fiddler's inner thoughts while playing his Dirge are almost mapping out his character arc for the last half of the series, which I won't say much more about, but his reflections start in sorrow and move into anger, to the point Gesler pleads for him to not end it on anger. Finally he plays a familiar, humorous lark of a song, to give the final point to humour, laughter, life. Which is what Fiddler stands for as best he can. I also loved Kalam and Quick Ben's conversations about Tavore - do they trust her, is she worthy of their trust? What is her damn plan anyway? I love how she convinces Kalam not by offering honours and titles like Laseen, but simply by asking him to help and believe in her. Then SE throws us a fantastic reversal, where Kalam tries to use Quick as his shaved knuckle in the hole, only for Shadowthrone to call the bill due from previous novels. Now where we were expecting the pair of them to wipe Pearl and his flunky's into the sea, they are now both alone in their most desperate moments. Yet even against unbelievable odds they both manage to eke out a victory, though at great cost. Such a phenomenal climax!
I suspected something was up with that mule, and that it might be Shadowthrone in disguise. But then again, for all I knew it could be anyone. Then I saw this video and now I am just sittning here questioning everything about my life. Am-an-ass. It was there in plain text from the start. 🤯😭🤯
Finished yesterday. Probably takes the place as my favorite of the first 6, even if the final act had some hiccups for me. Very excited about the trajectory the series is on.
I am really glad to hear it Mike. I keep trying to reassure people that not every book is for every reader, but I have to admit I do like it when people enjoy the books that I like. Given how much Erikson plays with expected structures, subjective perspectives, and his focus on themes and character moments, not to mention that he tries to make each book different, it is always nice to find other people that enjoy them. Have a great week.
One of my favourite little bits so far, with 3 of my favourite characters... At the end of the book, when Icarium gets stopped by Quick. Quick Ben shows up and is making his stand at the gate of the First Throne, throwing Icarium back, over and over with waves of magic and Quick, in utter disbelief that Icarium is able to withstand his best shots, Quick looks back at Trull and asks "WHO IN HOOD IS THIS MAN?!" Trull simply responds... "Wrong question... WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?!" So hilariously badass, man Quick is awesome. This book had a bit of a slow middle section, but ended with a bang as usual. I especially love how the protoganists are really united and fleshed out here. We get to see how truly awesome Cotillion is, his remorse for abandoning his group and children at the first throne, how he sits alone with his head in his hands after the battle with Icarium. Cotillion and Shadowthrone are very "new" Gods and we get to see that they have retained A LOT of their humanity. In many ways they are still humans, but with the powers of gods. They certainly seem to be fighting on the side of humanity. Cotillion especially.
I am currently re reading this book and the other day I was at the moment when Cotillion comes and help Kalam in the Imperial Warren, but takes his time chewing on an apple, while the poor fellow is clinging to a flying fortress with great effort. My husband and I discussed that scene because it's SO great and has so many levels of comedy. He doesn't need food, that's an act to irritate Kalam just for the sake of irritating him out of gratuitous spite! And you might expect the patron god of assassins to be tight and serious, instead he has such a subtle humor that blows my mind every time. The both of us found that so hilarious but not in a "I'm laughing so hard" way, more like "it makes my very brain laugh" way! Which is the highest level of comedy to me. Man is a genius in those subtle tricks and his books are full of examples like this one!
So many great great points here. This was the book where i missed the most of these types of takes as I was burning through it. They make so much sense in retrospect.
I couldn't wait to get to back to this video, since I finally finished The Bonehunters. You guys always give me such insight. I've enjoyed the series so far, but this is the first one that I wasn't ready to finish. I wanted it to keep going, which it does but you know what I mean. This is also the first one in which I felt like I got the glimmerings of how all this is coming together, but I'm probably wrong. Heh. On to the next one. Laseen has moved up to my hate list, falling just behind Mallick Rel. #RememberColtaine. I really feel like my main job as a reader is to do as Karsa is always saying: "Witness."
Great talk and really enjoyed watching you guys discuss it. At this rate you will beat me to the end of the series lol. I must say i really love the bit where Cotillion was like i was the last resort if Quick Ben fell. Really made you realise how dangerous the situation was if you didnt already lol, as Philip said you dont get a name like Life Stealer lightly.
Thankfully it isn't a race, and we can all take our own time and go at our own pace. Cotillion's point of being the last resort was a surprising revelation, and for me, at least, it really escalated the threat, but also showed how thinly stretched they were.
@@ACriticalDragon it was more just a surprise how fast you guys are catching up based on where i was in both Erikson and Esslemont's series (reading them concurrently like you both but i started last july lol) when you started doing these talks on the books. Yes realising that the implication was that Cotilion had put all the others in against Icarium first and A, found it necessary to be there if they failed and B, didnt seem confident even then it would be enough was really shocking because every time we have seen Cotilion in action he has been a force of nature and even before he ascended he was a massive badass. And the fact that things were still in doubt really added gravitas to the threat icarium poses.
I think one reason we latch on the Bridge Burners is that while they are effectively ended as a fighting force they are still at the heart of everything from the Deck of Dragons, to Hood's army, to Fiddler being the glue that holds the Bone Hunters together. So we have all these threads tying back to them even if they aren't still marching in formation so to speak.
A.P., you mention in connection with the outlines of factions being drawn in this book that the Crippled God is implied to be bad, while Shadowthrone/Cotillion are good (despite their utilitarian principle getting ambiguous). This reminded me of a moment in the book that stood out to me. Poliel is aligned with the Crippled God and so we would put her in the "bad" group but she says to Paran that she is trying to save Burn, which happens to involve the extermination of humanity. I found this so unexpected and yet another brilliant example of how Erikson forces us into the perspective of an antagonist. All the more fascinating for the parallel with Caladan Brood's dilemma in MoI (waking Burn at the cost of destroying humanity or holding off and trying to find another solution). This scene made me wonder if we're going to sympathize with the Crippled God at any point in the rest of the series. Wicked as he appears, he was violently torn from his realm against his will, only to be chained and exposed to endless suffering. I can't remember the details but the man in Felisin Younger's cult (Kulat?) gives their reason for following TCG - he seems to take on the role of savior of the dispossessed and downtrodden. Communism had the same appeal, so their position is understandable. I am truly curious if the TCG has any intention to fulfill this savior role upon his escape from his shackles or he is purely manipulative, only considering his own insterests. At this point I imagine the latter to be more likely but I've been surprised before, so I'm looking forward to see this unfold.
Hi Róbert, how far through the books are you? This is a really interesting topic, but I wouldn't want to inadvertently reveal something you haven't gotten to yet.
Well, why don't we pause this discussion until you get to The Crippled God. Make a note and come back here when you are done and we can discuss it then.
@@ACriticalDragon Hi A.P., I hope you're doing well. I recently finished TCG and I'm still digesting it but I remembered this exchange of comments. So it turns out my intuition wasn't far off the mark, even though it wasn't the Crippled God who was pulling most of the strings behind the scenes. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this. By the way, are you working your way through DoD with Philip at the moment? I always look forward to your discussions and I particularly enjoy the analysis of poems.
Amazing video again guys. These videos really enhance my reading of the series. I loved BH, it’s my second favorite of the series so far behind Memories of Ice (on Toll the Hounds now). For me, the Paran siblings and their stories were the highlight of the book for me. Ganoes maturing, being comfortable with his power while still being able to maintain his humanity was awesome to see. I would argue that the whole plot with Poleil and the plague is the third climax of the film, on the level of Y’Ghatan and Malaz City; Paran’s election as fist was also a great scene. And Tavore was also fascinating in this book - I did not get her or like her much at all in HoC but she became one of my favorite characters here, especially with the whole climax sequence and her scenes through Kalam’s eyes. And as far as overarching themes go, Erikson focusing on the nature of gods and worship and exploring that in depth was a master stroke. Loved your guys’ points on fanaticism here that relates to that. Additionally, there is the whole issue of utilitarianism that you brought up. I think, specifically, in Laseen’s attempted ethnic cleansing of the Wickans the book is a criticism of utilitarianism and the crimes against humanity that can be committed by dogmatic utilitarians.
Samar Dev and Karsa are my personal favorite couple in the whole book. Great discussion gentlemen. I loved Erikson's choice not to let the reader go during the seige and escape. Such a harrowing chapter.
I love this discussion. You guys are really on point and bring home the themes really well in a way that is helping me process this book after finishing it thid morning
What another wonderful discussion about one of my favorite books of all time! Was so happy you guys talked about my favorite chapter in the whole series for the first 25 minutes of video, such an unbelievable sequence that is chapter 7.
I am very glad that you enjoyed it. It is a fantastic sequence, and I really like the claustrophobic, never-ending feeling created through the structuring of it. Of course, there is loads more in the book, and, as ever, Philip and I forgot to talk about a host of other aspects.
What is it about a series when listening to you and Philip talking about a book I read about six months ago, brings back memories as if from my own life? And just hearing again about Corabb and Fiddler, or Apsalar and Cotillion, is so moving? Testament to some seriously great writing, I guess. Wonderful conversation, A.P.!
I finished the Bonehunters a couple days ago. That siege of Yghatan is something I'm still thinking about. This book has become one of my favorites, behind only Memories of Ice. This was yet another great discussion. I'm so excited to start Reapers Gale. When you and Phillip get together and discuss these books, it's such a great help. Thank you, and keep the Malazan content coming! Two more things. Karsa Orlong. Could he be any more awesome? Watching him cut through the Edur like grass was incredible. And Fiddler's Lament? Few times does a part of a book touch me deeply. This definitely did.
Thank you both for another enjoyable Malazan spoiler chat. I consider both of your videos required debriefing after each book. While I'm still digesting The Bonehunters (I'm a first-time reader who just finished it last week), I particularly enjoyed your discussion of the Y'Ghatan. I'm not sure I can forgive Erikson for burning the image of Baudin sawing off a woman's head with chains in Deadhouse Gates, but the entire journey under Y'Ghatan was absolutely amazing. It's one of my favorite sequences in the series so far. So, I will thank Mr. Erikson for that one! Again, thank you both for letting me in on your private Malazan book club. I look forward to the next one.
just trying to casually listen to you two and your excellent discussion of this book and now I'm crying at work, oops. This book's my favorite of the lot, there's all this big exciting action yeah, but gosh it's all underpinned by god awful beauty. The arc of the 14th is incredible.
It is a great book and there are some really heart-breaking moments. The emotion running through Malazan is something that is often overlooked in favour of the more overt, grand fantasy action. But the core human emotions are so key to what makes Malazan special, at least to me.
For some reason when you started talking about Karsa and Samar Dev I had a vision of Richard Moll and Selma Diamond from Night Court. I also must have missed Crump being a Bole Brother but it makes sense. And at some point someone needs to explain the jade statues more and the Heboric acid trips.
This was an enjoyable chat, thanks guys! Just wanted to say that i've always thought that donkeys (and mules, and asses) are cool, but in Malazan they rule! Also, i enjoyed reading about the two pairs of "sisters": Spite&Envy and Telorast&Curdle, they are so annoying and mean, but i love them anyway
Thank you both for this talk, great and insightful as usual! Re Fiddler's playing, in my head it sounds like Bach's Chaconne for solo violin. And then he plays a spider dance, and it must be a tarantella, the dance famously named after the tarantula.
Great discussion. The insights and and plot extrapulations are very much enlightening. Two thoughts. One. In a way Leomans strategy with the olive oil and subsequent inferno is in a way retribution towards the Malazans or their use of Moranth Munitions in battle. The sheer indiscriminate destruction and devastation of the inferno reminded me of the outcome of the Munitions during combat. The Malazans got a taste of their own medicine as the saying goes. Or rather what goes around, comes around. Second. The Bridge Burners died underground in the tunnels under Pale. The Bone Hunters were born underground below Y'Gahtan. Underground, within Burn. We come from the earth and we go back to it. Death feeds life. Creation and destruction. Not saying these notions were Eriksons own intentions. Just thoughts I had during your discussion. Cheers.
Those are great points, although while I don't normally defend Malazan tactics (they are a little too pragmatic for me) they don't normally firebomb their own stronghold. But you are absolutely right that Erikson mirrored the death of the Bridgeburners with the birth of the Bonehunters. It was entirely intentional and it is a wonderful reversal. Thanks for watching and for the great comments.
I absolutely loved this book! Thanks so much for the discussion AP. You and Philip do such a great job I eagerly look forward to watching these videos when I finish each novel. Sort of feels like unlocked content for me and I’m having the best Malazan reading experience. Onto Reaper’s Gale (although I may take a pit stop to finish Robin Hobb’s Farseer trilogy but unsure yet I’m addicted to Malazan😅)
@@ACriticalDragon I’ve been loving her books so far (absolutely loved Royal Assassin) so I think I will finish up with that trilogy before tackling the rest of Malazan. Any plans on doing spoiler chats for Realm of the Elderlings maybe next year? That’d be awesome if so!
Taking an awful risk writing a joke this bad that AP doesn't make it after I resume the video, but Philip, it's not us who are Pulling for Corab, but the Lady Oponn.
Just finished this one. These books just keep getting better. Glad I had already read Night of Knives, was nice to see some characters from that one pop up. The sequence in Y’Ghatan was something else. Not just the overall ‘death and rebirth’, but also some individual character arcs. Didn’t much care for Corabb in House of Chains, but in this book he went from comic relief kool-aid drinker to becoming a new person. The sequence with the various parties on the ships was a nice change of pace, and Quick Ben’s epic showdown with the Edur mages was awesome. Of course I always love when the scenes when characters are dodging assassins in Malaz City. So, did Heboric become a god in this book. Paran had a conversation about ascendancy and godhood earlier in the book when he walked the reader through how Treach was killed by the KM and then ascended to godhood becoming Trake (or did I get those name backwards?). That cleared up one of the more confusing parts of Memories of Ice to me, but I was wondering if the reader is being reminded of how that can work, to prepare us for it happening to another character. Was going to read something else next but I’m inclined to dive right in to Reapers Gale Really enjoy these videos, as I don’t know anyone personally who reads these, this is as close as I get to a post-book discussion
I am glad that you are enjoying them. Sorry that you are finding it difficult to find people to discuss the books with. I know that there are a number of discord servers that have Malazan sections. I occasionally pop by Iskar Jarak's server The Unabridged Burners.
@@ACriticalDragon thanks I’ll get my kids to explain how discord works :) I’ll probably wait until I’m done with the main series before diving in there, I try hard to avoid spoilers
@@paulharvey5505 Iskar's server is really good at having separate sections for nonspoiler and spoiler discussions. It is also fairly intuitive to use, even for a tech adverse person like me. But I always welcome discussions in the comments, so please feel invited to comment as often as you like. I try to answer comments as often as I can.
I kind of took Fiddler’s songs as more of a surreal element of the narrative rather than something we’re supposed to really consider the timing/logistics of
That works as well. I think it has a wonderful cinematic quality. So diegetically it could be that Fiddler's song is only heard around him, but it then serves as an extradiegetic soundtrack for all those scenes when people couldn't possibly hear it. So the reader 'hears' it through all the scenes, but the only characters that hear it are in the room with him.
am I meant to understand what happened with herboric and with the Moon and with the Jade and with the fire r raining from the sky after reading this book
I still don’t quite understand why he’s playing in the heat of battle when the rest are fighting. Like those are four of the best soldiers in the army and they’re using this moment to mourn? Mourn after the fight as they sail away!!
He isn't, he is halfway across town. There wasn't a battle when he left to go and mourn his friends with the last survivors he knew in the city. The battle started afterwards.
O Niflrog posted the answer to your comment in that thread, but it is from the Tor Reread The Crippled God Q&A with Steven Erikson. "The mule? I have always been surprised at how often this question is asked, when to me the answer’s so obvious, I mean, as an existential manifestation of archetypal paradigms in a quotidian context of subliminity in an exclusively ungulate but decidedly simian expression of attitudinal stances so often taken under trying or at least confabulating circumstances, as reflected in this extension of reality we so blithely, if somewhat disingenuously, call Fantasy. Mules are frustratingly belligerent when it comes to explaining themselves, or so I’ve found."
@@ACriticalDragon Hahaahh. Brilliant. That reads like the kind of postmodern blabber they used to want me to write in university essays ;) Touche Erikson. Well met
On freeing the T'lan Imass vs Child Soldiers: I think the T'lan Imass have been objectified, and I mean that literally. The 'common sense' surrounding them is that they are no longer a people, but rather a tool to be used in the eyes of the various states & gods that seek to utilize them. At that point in MoI, some people have sorta absorbed that way of thinking about them. Therefore, when the T'lan Imass are not being 'used properly' in that moment, some people are like "WTF, there is a better use for that Tool!" Child soldiering, however, is generally thought of as always bad. They are understood as impressionable subjects by most people and usually thought of as 'innocent'. Like, giving kids a double dose of super-PTSD just doesn't sit very well with me personally! I wonder if this has been answered and maybe I just forgot, but if the T'lan Imass had been released, would they have even been able to be controlled by whoever sat on the throne? Also, what happens if throne is simply destroyed? I kinda remember that being brought up in the books but it's been a while. If destroying the throne ends the threat of a relative 'mad' man ( let's be real, everybody in positions of power are a bit mad in these books ) then why not simply destroy it? Then you don't have to worry about the T'lan Imass being 'misused' and you don't have to misuse a bunch of children either. My best case is liberate the T'lan Imass from any possibility of external oppression as soon as possible and rescue all the kids you can. Let them all try to find some happiness for Hood's sake!
Also again, thanks to both of y'all for putting these videos up and facilitating such discussions. It's been maybe a year now since I finished the series and now I desperately want to return to it. Just gotta finish The Dispossessed, Parable of the Sower, and a few Greg Egan books first!
@@ACriticalDragon Got any good recs for him? I've read/absolutely loved Diaspora and was just going to pick up a random one. If you've got a favorite though, I'd rather give that a try.
Diaspora was my favourite. Axiomatic (short story collection) was good. I also seem to recall that I enjoyed Permutation City and Quarantine. But Diaspora was my favourite.
@@ACriticalDragon Roger that, thanks a bunch! I was leaning toward Permutation City so that'll probably be it. No pressure or anything, but if you ever decide to do a video on The Dispossessed, I'd be super duper into that! I don't think enough people are aware of it and I'd love to get into discussions about it.
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Thank you for yet another fun, enlightening, and awesome chat, my friend! We never manage to discuss everything, but what we do manage to discuss has deepened my love for this incredible series every time. More fireballs to come!
As ever, it was fun and informative in almost equal measure. Thanks for having these discussions with me.
While reading this book, especially after the entire firestorm in Y Ghatan, I didn't feel Erikson could actually top the events of that scene in the latter half of the book - Fiddler's dirge is a fantastic callback to not only the people who have died in YGhatan but all the people who have died so far in the series - a moving, cinematic, emotional moment that earns this series its name -The Book of the Fallen. I'm so glad i could read something as wonderful as this in my lifetime.
The dirge is great. One of the things that I truly enjoy about 'good' books is that they show me what I didn't realise I wanted. Of course, it doesn't always 'land' for every reader but I have so much respect for authors that reach for new things instead of reusing the same old tired structures and formulae.
I love the idea of Fiddler's Dirge being similar to his Deck readings. It makes his sudden fiddling skills a lot more credible, since we never see him practice the damn thing. But having it be from the same magical source that makes him an adept of the Deck is a wonderful interpretation. The entire scene with Fiddler's Dirge might be my favorite section in the entire series. Even though the actual music Fiddler plays isn't described, I think the text itself shows exactly how it crescendos and gets more frantic and even desperate as it goes on. And then at the end of the section after he plays the piece about the spider (I think he said it's the only thing he actually knows how to play) we get these lines that I just love:
"The four men laughed.
Then fell silent once more."
If I remember correctly, in one of the earlier books, one of the Bridgeburners claims that Fiddler can't actually play his fiddle. To me, it was even implied that the reason his fiddles always end up broken almost instantly is because people break it to keep him from playing it.
At the point, the implication is that they do this because he is so bad at it, but maybe they are just afraid of what might happen. After all, his readings of the deck don't always go exactly well either.
I love your interpretation of how the scenes and the music are interconnected. That was how I felt about those sequences. The music, to me at least, was interwoven through it all. And those are great lines.
@@gerdforster883 I always thought that it ended up battered because he was a sapper and constantly getting buffeted by explosions and combat.
@@ACriticalDragon Leave it up to Erickson to put a soundtrack in a book. Much like the ride of Faramir where there was no sound and just the singing with the action in slow motion.
Iskaral's Mule is Esslemont's alterego. Kruppe's Mule is Erikson's alterego.
Gives a new meaning to a certain event in Toll the hounds, huh? 😂
Now that is a fascinating interpretation. I have been meaning to ask, as you are O'Niflrog, are you an Irish Jaghut?
@@ACriticalDragon Fascinating theory.
The more mundane story behind is that Google wouldn't let me use just Niflrog. So I had to tell them my name was O and my last name was Niflrog. Which isn't so Farfetched, my real name IS Oscar :-P
But Irish Jaghut sounds sooo much more interesting 😂
Damn, I thought you might have been one of the Dublin O'Niflrogs.
@@ACriticalDragon Distant cousins of the O'mtosans. But they are out of favor due to their dislike of whiskey and preference of Jaghermeistrer.
@@EricMcLuen You mean the historical enemies of the O'sserics from Belfast? 👀
i just want to say that telorast and curdle are the greatest characters ever! i think they definitely need a couple of spin off novellas :D
Telorast and Curdle are great comic relief, but I don't think I would enjoy an entire book about them. Then again, maybe I would.
@@ACriticalDragon why doesn't anyone take them seriously :'( but seriously, i couldn't get enough of them. and i really do think that a story about those two would be next level crazy (i'm pretty sure you'd like it too :p )
This is a fantastic book and the discussion was compelling today for sure.
Fiddler's inner thoughts while playing his Dirge are almost mapping out his character arc for the last half of the series, which I won't say much more about, but his reflections start in sorrow and move into anger, to the point Gesler pleads for him to not end it on anger. Finally he plays a familiar, humorous lark of a song, to give the final point to humour, laughter, life. Which is what Fiddler stands for as best he can.
I also loved Kalam and Quick Ben's conversations about Tavore - do they trust her, is she worthy of their trust? What is her damn plan anyway? I love how she convinces Kalam not by offering honours and titles like Laseen, but simply by asking him to help and believe in her.
Then SE throws us a fantastic reversal, where Kalam tries to use Quick as his shaved knuckle in the hole, only for Shadowthrone to call the bill due from previous novels. Now where we were expecting the pair of them to wipe Pearl and his flunky's into the sea, they are now both alone in their most desperate moments. Yet even against unbelievable odds they both manage to eke out a victory, though at great cost. Such a phenomenal climax!
Brilliant points, Karl. Thank you.
Currently going through my first reading of the series, and I always look forward to these videos when I finish one!
Hi James, I am very glad that you are enjoying the videos. I hope that they add to your experience of reading the book.
I also thought the mule may be Sadowthrone.
Especially with his other name of Ammanas, which sounds a lot like "I'm an Ass"
Plus, he is a bit of an ass 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I suspected something was up with that mule, and that it might be Shadowthrone in disguise. But then again, for all I knew it could be anyone.
Then I saw this video and now I am just sittning here questioning everything about my life. Am-an-ass. It was there in plain text from the start.
🤯😭🤯
Am I the only person who loves Shadowthrone?! He’s a total boss, but in a dark funny as fuck way! Absolutely love his character
We all love Shadowthrone. Mad, cackling, insane, genius... and also incredibly human at times.
@@ACriticalDragon 100% agreed
Finished yesterday. Probably takes the place as my favorite of the first 6, even if the final act had some hiccups for me. Very excited about the trajectory the series is on.
I am really glad to hear it Mike. I keep trying to reassure people that not every book is for every reader, but I have to admit I do like it when people enjoy the books that I like.
Given how much Erikson plays with expected structures, subjective perspectives, and his focus on themes and character moments, not to mention that he tries to make each book different, it is always nice to find other people that enjoy them.
Have a great week.
One of my favourite little bits so far, with 3 of my favourite characters... At the end of the book, when Icarium gets stopped by Quick.
Quick Ben shows up and is making his stand at the gate of the First Throne, throwing Icarium back, over and over with waves of magic and Quick, in utter disbelief that Icarium is able to withstand his best shots, Quick looks back at Trull and asks "WHO IN HOOD IS THIS MAN?!"
Trull simply responds... "Wrong question... WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?!"
So hilariously badass, man Quick is awesome.
This book had a bit of a slow middle section, but ended with a bang as usual. I especially love how the protoganists are really united and fleshed out here. We get to see how truly awesome Cotillion is, his remorse for abandoning his group and children at the first throne, how he sits alone with his head in his hands after the battle with Icarium.
Cotillion and Shadowthrone are very "new" Gods and we get to see that they have retained A LOT of their humanity. In many ways they are still humans, but with the powers of gods. They certainly seem to be fighting on the side of humanity. Cotillion especially.
I am currently re reading this book and the other day I was at the moment when Cotillion comes and help Kalam in the Imperial Warren, but takes his time chewing on an apple, while the poor fellow is clinging to a flying fortress with great effort.
My husband and I discussed that scene because it's SO great and has so many levels of comedy. He doesn't need food, that's an act to irritate Kalam just for the sake of irritating him out of gratuitous spite! And you might expect the patron god of assassins to be tight and serious, instead he has such a subtle humor that blows my mind every time. The both of us found that so hilarious but not in a "I'm laughing so hard" way, more like "it makes my very brain laugh" way! Which is the highest level of comedy to me. Man is a genius in those subtle tricks and his books are full of examples like this one!
So many great great points here. This was the book where i missed the most of these types of takes as I was burning through it. They make so much sense in retrospect.
I couldn't wait to get to back to this video, since I finally finished The Bonehunters. You guys always give me such insight. I've enjoyed the series so far, but this is the first one that I wasn't ready to finish. I wanted it to keep going, which it does but you know what I mean. This is also the first one in which I felt like I got the glimmerings of how all this is coming together, but I'm probably wrong. Heh. On to the next one. Laseen has moved up to my hate list, falling just behind Mallick Rel. #RememberColtaine. I really feel like my main job as a reader is to do as Karsa is always saying: "Witness."
I am really glad that you are enjoying the videos and the discussions, Andrea. Thanks for watching.
Great talk and really enjoyed watching you guys discuss it. At this rate you will beat me to the end of the series lol. I must say i really love the bit where Cotillion was like i was the last resort if Quick Ben fell. Really made you realise how dangerous the situation was if you didnt already lol, as Philip said you dont get a name like Life Stealer lightly.
Thankfully it isn't a race, and we can all take our own time and go at our own pace.
Cotillion's point of being the last resort was a surprising revelation, and for me, at least, it really escalated the threat, but also showed how thinly stretched they were.
@@ACriticalDragon it was more just a surprise how fast you guys are catching up based on where i was in both Erikson and Esslemont's series (reading them concurrently like you both but i started last july lol) when you started doing these talks on the books.
Yes realising that the implication was that Cotilion had put all the others in against Icarium first and A, found it necessary to be there if they failed and B, didnt seem confident even then it would be enough was really shocking because every time we have seen Cotilion in action he has been a force of nature and even before he ascended he was a massive badass. And the fact that things were still in doubt really added gravitas to the threat icarium poses.
Great talk! I love the Bonehunters.
I am very glad that you enjoyed it. Great books inspire fun chats.
I think one reason we latch on the Bridge Burners is that while they are effectively ended as a fighting force they are still at the heart of everything from the Deck of Dragons, to Hood's army, to Fiddler being the glue that holds the Bone Hunters together. So we have all these threads tying back to them even if they aren't still marching in formation so to speak.
That is an excellent point. They are a legacy of the past, but they also remain connected to everything else.
I love Apsalar's arc here, as well as Curdle and Telorast!
The more I see if Iskaral Pust, the more he grows on me, haha!
Pust is an acquired taste. I am still not sure if I actually like him or if it is more like I can't look away...
After almost twenty years I finally get it! „Which characters are an ass?“ The one who says he is! „Am an ass“.. 😄
A.P., you mention in connection with the outlines of factions being drawn in this book that the Crippled God is implied to be bad, while Shadowthrone/Cotillion are good (despite their utilitarian principle getting ambiguous). This reminded me of a moment in the book that stood out to me. Poliel is aligned with the Crippled God and so we would put her in the "bad" group but she says to Paran that she is trying to save Burn, which happens to involve the extermination of humanity. I found this so unexpected and yet another brilliant example of how Erikson forces us into the perspective of an antagonist. All the more fascinating for the parallel with Caladan Brood's dilemma in MoI (waking Burn at the cost of destroying humanity or holding off and trying to find another solution). This scene made me wonder if we're going to sympathize with the Crippled God at any point in the rest of the series. Wicked as he appears, he was violently torn from his realm against his will, only to be chained and exposed to endless suffering. I can't remember the details but the man in Felisin Younger's cult (Kulat?) gives their reason for following TCG - he seems to take on the role of savior of the dispossessed and downtrodden. Communism had the same appeal, so their position is understandable. I am truly curious if the TCG has any intention to fulfill this savior role upon his escape from his shackles or he is purely manipulative, only considering his own insterests. At this point I imagine the latter to be more likely but I've been surprised before, so I'm looking forward to see this unfold.
Hi Róbert, how far through the books are you?
This is a really interesting topic, but I wouldn't want to inadvertently reveal something you haven't gotten to yet.
@@ACriticalDragon I finished The Bonehunters but haven't started Reaper's Gale yet (first read-through).
Well, why don't we pause this discussion until you get to The Crippled God. Make a note and come back here when you are done and we can discuss it then.
@@ACriticalDragon Sounds good! *holding breath for a couple of months*
@@ACriticalDragon Hi A.P., I hope you're doing well. I recently finished TCG and I'm still digesting it but I remembered this exchange of comments. So it turns out my intuition wasn't far off the mark, even though it wasn't the Crippled God who was pulling most of the strings behind the scenes. I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
By the way, are you working your way through DoD with Philip at the moment? I always look forward to your discussions and I particularly enjoy the analysis of poems.
My fav book of the series, the whole book was awesome.
It is a great book, and it has some incredible scenes.
Amazing video again guys. These videos really enhance my reading of the series. I loved BH, it’s my second favorite of the series so far behind Memories of Ice (on Toll the Hounds now). For me, the Paran siblings and their stories were the highlight of the book for me. Ganoes maturing, being comfortable with his power while still being able to maintain his humanity was awesome to see. I would argue that the whole plot with Poleil and the plague is the third climax of the film, on the level of Y’Ghatan and Malaz City; Paran’s election as fist was also a great scene. And Tavore was also fascinating in this book - I did not get her or like her much at all in HoC but she became one of my favorite characters here, especially with the whole climax sequence and her scenes through Kalam’s eyes.
And as far as overarching themes go, Erikson focusing on the nature of gods and worship and exploring that in depth was a master stroke. Loved your guys’ points on fanaticism here that relates to that. Additionally, there is the whole issue of utilitarianism that you brought up. I think, specifically, in Laseen’s attempted ethnic cleansing of the Wickans the book is a criticism of utilitarianism and the crimes against humanity that can be committed by dogmatic utilitarians.
Samar Dev and Karsa are my personal favorite couple in the whole book. Great discussion gentlemen. I loved Erikson's choice not to let the reader go during the seige and escape. Such a harrowing chapter.
It is a fantastic chapter, and a wonderful illustration of how structure can be aligned with plot. Thanks for watching.
I love this discussion. You guys are really on point and bring home the themes really well in a way that is helping me process this book after finishing it thid morning
Great to hear from you Christian. And it is always nice to hear that you enjoy the videos. I hope that you are doing well.
What another wonderful discussion about one of my favorite books of all time! Was so happy you guys talked about my favorite chapter in the whole series for the first 25 minutes of video, such an unbelievable sequence that is chapter 7.
I am very glad that you enjoyed it. It is a fantastic sequence, and I really like the claustrophobic, never-ending feeling created through the structuring of it. Of course, there is loads more in the book, and, as ever, Philip and I forgot to talk about a host of other aspects.
I loved Fiddler playing. This was the Tanno spirit song for the Bonehunters. So I guess the Falari friendship song for the Bonehunters?
What is it about a series when listening to you and Philip talking about a book I read about six months ago, brings back memories as if from my own life? And just hearing again about Corabb and Fiddler, or Apsalar and Cotillion, is so moving? Testament to some seriously great writing, I guess. Wonderful conversation, A.P.!
I think you hit the nail on the head there. Great writing lives on in us. It creates resonances, memories, and ripples. Thanks for watching Johan.
I finished the Bonehunters a couple days ago. That siege of Yghatan is something I'm still thinking about. This book has become one of my favorites, behind only Memories of Ice. This was yet another great discussion. I'm so excited to start Reapers Gale. When you and Phillip get together and discuss these books, it's such a great help. Thank you, and keep the Malazan content coming!
Two more things. Karsa Orlong. Could he be any more awesome? Watching him cut through the Edur like grass was incredible. And Fiddler's Lament? Few times does a part of a book touch me deeply. This definitely did.
Thank you both for another enjoyable Malazan spoiler chat. I consider both of your videos required debriefing after each book. While I'm still digesting The Bonehunters (I'm a first-time reader who just finished it last week), I particularly enjoyed your discussion of the Y'Ghatan. I'm not sure I can forgive Erikson for burning the image of Baudin sawing off a woman's head with chains in Deadhouse Gates, but the entire journey under Y'Ghatan was absolutely amazing. It's one of my favorite sequences in the series so far. So, I will thank Mr. Erikson for that one! Again, thank you both for letting me in on your private Malazan book club. I look forward to the next one.
Hi Danie, thank you for watching and the kind words. I am glad that you are enjoying the videos.
just trying to casually listen to you two and your excellent discussion of this book and now I'm crying at work, oops. This book's my favorite of the lot, there's all this big exciting action yeah, but gosh it's all underpinned by god awful beauty. The arc of the 14th is incredible.
It is a great book and there are some really heart-breaking moments. The emotion running through Malazan is something that is often overlooked in favour of the more overt, grand fantasy action. But the core human emotions are so key to what makes Malazan special, at least to me.
For some reason when you started talking about Karsa and Samar Dev I had a vision of Richard Moll and Selma Diamond from Night Court.
I also must have missed Crump being a Bole Brother but it makes sense.
And at some point someone needs to explain the jade statues more and the Heboric acid trips.
This was an enjoyable chat, thanks guys!
Just wanted to say that i've always thought that donkeys (and mules, and asses) are cool, but in Malazan they rule!
Also, i enjoyed reading about the two pairs of "sisters": Spite&Envy and Telorast&Curdle, they are so annoying and mean, but i love them anyway
Best review yet Guys, love the Bonehunters
Glad that you enjoyed the chat.
Thank you both for this talk, great and insightful as usual!
Re Fiddler's playing, in my head it sounds like Bach's Chaconne for solo violin. And then he plays a spider dance, and it must be a tarantella, the dance famously named after the tarantula.
Weirdly enough, I am not a fan of violin in general, but I love the deeper melancholic sonorousness of the cello.
The dirge is my favorite scene in the series
It may not be my favourite scene in the whole series, but I thought it was wonderfully interwoven into everything else that was going on.
Great discussion. The insights and and plot extrapulations are very much enlightening.
Two thoughts.
One. In a way Leomans strategy with the olive oil and subsequent inferno is in a way retribution towards the Malazans or their use of Moranth Munitions in battle. The sheer indiscriminate destruction and devastation of the inferno reminded me of the outcome of the Munitions during combat. The Malazans got a taste of their own medicine as the saying goes. Or rather what goes around, comes around.
Second. The Bridge Burners died underground in the tunnels under Pale. The Bone Hunters were born underground below Y'Gahtan. Underground, within Burn. We come from the earth and we go back to it. Death feeds life. Creation and destruction.
Not saying these notions were Eriksons own intentions. Just thoughts I had during your discussion.
Cheers.
Those are great points, although while I don't normally defend Malazan tactics (they are a little too pragmatic for me) they don't normally firebomb their own stronghold.
But you are absolutely right that Erikson mirrored the death of the Bridgeburners with the birth of the Bonehunters. It was entirely intentional and it is a wonderful reversal.
Thanks for watching and for the great comments.
I absolutely loved this book! Thanks so much for the discussion AP. You and Philip do such a great job I eagerly look forward to watching these videos when I finish each novel. Sort of feels like unlocked content for me and I’m having the best Malazan reading experience. Onto Reaper’s Gale (although I may take a pit stop to finish Robin Hobb’s Farseer trilogy but unsure yet I’m addicted to Malazan😅)
Oh, definitely take the time to read Hobb. She is a fantastic author, and that series is really great. Thanks for watching.
@@ACriticalDragon I’ve been loving her books so far (absolutely loved Royal Assassin) so I think I will finish up with that trilogy before tackling the rest of Malazan. Any plans on doing spoiler chats for Realm of the Elderlings maybe next year? That’d be awesome if so!
Fiddlers song 😭 what a GREAT scene
It is a really good sequence, and the emotion that the song adds is just great. Thanks for watching.
Taking an awful risk writing a joke this bad that AP doesn't make it after I resume the video, but Philip, it's not us who are Pulling for Corab, but the Lady Oponn.
That's it. Banned. No more for you. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
1:02:00 yeah that was my theory too that Mule is Shadowthrone
Why do you have Midnight Tides before House of Chains on your shelf? And thank you and Philip for all the great discussions
To see if anyone would notice.
@@ACriticalDragon Right on 👍😀
Just finished this one. These books just keep getting better.
Glad I had already read Night of Knives, was nice to see some characters from that one pop up.
The sequence in Y’Ghatan was something else. Not just the overall ‘death and rebirth’, but also some individual character arcs.
Didn’t much care for Corabb in House of Chains, but in this book he went from comic relief kool-aid drinker to becoming a new person.
The sequence with the various parties on the ships was a nice change of pace, and Quick Ben’s epic showdown with the Edur mages was awesome.
Of course I always love when the scenes when characters are dodging assassins in Malaz City.
So, did Heboric become a god in this book. Paran had a conversation about ascendancy and godhood earlier in the book when he walked the reader through how Treach was killed by the KM and then ascended to godhood becoming Trake (or did I get those name backwards?). That cleared up one of the more confusing parts of Memories of Ice to me, but I was wondering if the reader is being reminded of how that can work, to prepare us for it happening to another character.
Was going to read something else next but I’m inclined to dive right in to Reapers Gale
Really enjoy these videos, as I don’t know anyone personally who reads these, this is as close as I get to a post-book discussion
I am glad that you are enjoying them. Sorry that you are finding it difficult to find people to discuss the books with. I know that there are a number of discord servers that have Malazan sections.
I occasionally pop by Iskar Jarak's server The Unabridged Burners.
@@ACriticalDragon thanks
I’ll get my kids to explain how discord works :)
I’ll probably wait until I’m done with the main series before diving in there, I try hard to avoid spoilers
@@paulharvey5505 Iskar's server is really good at having separate sections for nonspoiler and spoiler discussions.
It is also fairly intuitive to use, even for a tech adverse person like me.
But I always welcome discussions in the comments, so please feel invited to comment as often as you like. I try to answer comments as often as I can.
Leoman... what a bastard 😆
I kind of took Fiddler’s songs as more of a surreal element of the narrative rather than something we’re supposed to really consider the timing/logistics of
That works as well. I think it has a wonderful cinematic quality. So diegetically it could be that Fiddler's song is only heard around him, but it then serves as an extradiegetic soundtrack for all those scenes when people couldn't possibly hear it.
So the reader 'hears' it through all the scenes, but the only characters that hear it are in the room with him.
am I meant to understand what happened with herboric and with the Moon and with the Jade and with the fire r raining from the sky after reading this book
I think you have a good enough handle on the general thrust of it after this book.
I still don’t quite understand why he’s playing in the heat of battle when the rest are fighting. Like those are four of the best soldiers in the army and they’re using this moment to mourn? Mourn after the fight as they sail away!!
He isn't, he is halfway across town. There wasn't a battle when he left to go and mourn his friends with the last survivors he knew in the city. The battle started afterwards.
Did u ever find the Erikson answer to the mule
O Niflrog posted the answer to your comment in that thread, but it is from the Tor Reread The Crippled God Q&A with Steven Erikson.
"The mule? I have always been surprised at how often this question is asked, when to me the answer’s so obvious, I mean, as an existential manifestation of archetypal paradigms in a quotidian context of subliminity in an exclusively ungulate but decidedly simian expression of attitudinal stances so often taken under trying or at least confabulating circumstances, as reflected in this extension of reality we so blithely, if somewhat disingenuously, call Fantasy.
Mules are frustratingly belligerent when it comes to explaining themselves, or so I’ve found."
@@ACriticalDragon Hahaahh. Brilliant. That reads like the kind of postmodern blabber they used to want me to write in university essays ;) Touche Erikson. Well met
So what is it with this mule? I think the mule is really Steven Erikson in disguise within his own story.
The mule abides.
On freeing the T'lan Imass vs Child Soldiers:
I think the T'lan Imass have been objectified, and I mean that literally. The 'common sense' surrounding them is that they are no longer a people, but rather a tool to be used in the eyes of the various states & gods that seek to utilize them. At that point in MoI, some people have sorta absorbed that way of thinking about them. Therefore, when the T'lan Imass are not being 'used properly' in that moment, some people are like "WTF, there is a better use for that Tool!"
Child soldiering, however, is generally thought of as always bad. They are understood as impressionable subjects by most people and usually thought of as 'innocent'. Like, giving kids a double dose of super-PTSD just doesn't sit very well with me personally! I wonder if this has been answered and maybe I just forgot, but if the T'lan Imass had been released, would they have even been able to be controlled by whoever sat on the throne? Also, what happens if throne is simply destroyed? I kinda remember that being brought up in the books but it's been a while. If destroying the throne ends the threat of a relative 'mad' man ( let's be real, everybody in positions of power are a bit mad in these books ) then why not simply destroy it? Then you don't have to worry about the T'lan Imass being 'misused' and you don't have to misuse a bunch of children either.
My best case is liberate the T'lan Imass from any possibility of external oppression as soon as possible and rescue all the kids you can. Let them all try to find some happiness for Hood's sake!
Also again, thanks to both of y'all for putting these videos up and facilitating such discussions. It's been maybe a year now since I finished the series and now I desperately want to return to it. Just gotta finish The Dispossessed, Parable of the Sower, and a few Greg Egan books first!
I love The Dispossessed and Greg Egan was one of the authors I studied during my MA in Science Fiction.
@@ACriticalDragon Got any good recs for him? I've read/absolutely loved Diaspora and was just going to pick up a random one. If you've got a favorite though, I'd rather give that a try.
Diaspora was my favourite. Axiomatic (short story collection) was good. I also seem to recall that I enjoyed Permutation City and Quarantine. But Diaspora was my favourite.
@@ACriticalDragon Roger that, thanks a bunch! I was leaning toward Permutation City so that'll probably be it.
No pressure or anything, but if you ever decide to do a video on The Dispossessed, I'd be super duper into that! I don't think enough people are aware of it and I'd love to get into discussions about it.
AM AN ASS! It's all there!
I want to know who the poor bastard is on the other end of the scale to balance out Corabb's luck. Limp maybe? lol
Toc?
@@feral7523 Certainly a good candidate. I don't know how I didn't consider him.Thanks.