As a Lewisham resident for the first 40 years of my life, and priding myself on having a good knowledge of London history, I had no idea about this! Thank you.
A couple of intetesting facts about Cricklewood Station. The colourful cow is to remember that this area used to be called Cow Green. The old station building that appeared briefly is used by a junk man, and he has his own personal traffic light to get out of his yard onto the busy crossroads.
These lines are a bit like giving a set of frustrated travellers across London a set of pencils and asking them to make a railway that would make their journeys easier - ignoring logistics or anything approaching consideration of potential repercussions..
You have just described the 19th century approach to the railways of Britain. If you include some spurious claims to how it's going to make the shareholders rich beyond their wildest dreams that is.
I remember once seeing a tube platform map where someone had drawn on a new line, calling it Gary's Line - we've all dreamed of a new line designed just to serve our own transport needs 😁
@@therighthonsirdoug HS2 leaves me confused. There are currently 2 main lines between Birmingham & London. Not convinced shaving half an hour off the journey achieves much. It would make more sense to me if HS2 connected directly to HS1 so it would be possible to travel directly from northern cities to Europe. Tbh, spend the money on improving rail infrastructure in the west or north would be better than another line to London. Duplicate services to London were axed under Beeching so why reinstate them now? Or am I missing something? ££££'s I guess...
There's a great londonist article on this topic featuring a fictional tube map of the planned lines. According to that map, route 4 would be called the 'Cricklefleet' line. The map is much easier to read as well.
Cricklewood - the epicentre of London's acid trip culture if that cow is anything to go by. I go through there every day and wouldnt have imagined other ideas. Looking forward to the potential reopening of the Dudding Hill line though, if that ever goes ahead.
@@JagoHazzard Any time is a good time! I noticed a month or so ago that the old shopping arcade at Charring Cross is now closed, it housed a curio of London. Did you ever venture (or get lost) down there?
Hi Jago - great video as usual etc etc! The shot of Victoria Station at 3.22 (the Southern Railway 'bit' on the left and the other 'bit' on the right) got me thinking: could you do a a vid on the station's history and how two such differing (albeit beautiful) structures came to land next to each other. Thanking you kindly
Ah the joy of another Tale from the Tube. - Love these lines that never where, when I was a kid Iived near Highgate tube and saw the above ground station. From there I learnt about the 'Northern line' that wasn't. - I even heard that it could have been extended out to Oxford in one idea floated. Please continue the series and perhaps cap it off with a summary video? - If you want any other ideas,you could talk about some of the swiss cheese tunnels and constructions, and the rumours and legends around them. Jubilee line and escape tunnels for the Royal family,anyone?! Glad you seem to be recovering.
The more one looks at these schemes, the more one thinks that Thameslink, Crossrail and the Overground achieve most of it for a fraction of the cost and effort. As for Tower Bridge Road, as the details become clearer, the mind boggles. The reality was that no new lines got built under Central London between the 1920s and the 1967 completion of the Victoria Line.
Thameslink perhaps; it only really involved putting one short stretch of tunnel back into use and building some dual-voltage trains. Crossrail is in a different league and also involves a long tunnel as these schemes would have done.
@@IndigoJo Good point, although Thameslink has also needed extra work at Blackfriars and south of the Thames to bring it to full fruition. However the schemes described in the plan seem to be implying separate tunnels rather than shared. Imagine the cost of 10 Crossrails!
@@iankemp1131 And we'd still be waiting for them to be completed!! I suspect that Crossrail 2 will, after the Elizabeth Line, be called the Charles Line, the William Line or the George Line depending on when its completed. :-)
What about doing a video of the Dudding Hill Line that London Overground is imposing a new service from Cricklewood or Brent Cross West and Hendon to Brentford and Weybridge via Willesden Junction/Harlesden and South Acton. With new stations being added as well electrification including a new Overgrown station close to Brentford FC Community Stadium which is to be located on Lionel Road. And freight trains use the non-electrified freight line in North London. Also what about doing the West Ealing-Greenford branch line.
@@highpath4776…’The Man Who Never Was’ refers to a top secret ploy by the Allies in World War II to convince the Nazi’s that the Invasion of Europe was going to take place in the Par De Calais, and in a different period to the actual Invasion. A body was chosen from a few available, and was given a checkable military identity…Namely, a Major Mike Martin of the Royal Marines. The body was put into uniform, with correct papers, letters from home, an unposted letter to a loved one, keys, wallet, money, club membership card etc… and finally, a set of plans, drawings, letters and other materials relating to the (false) Invasion location and time period, and the body was put into the sea (from a submarine), in the Straights of Gibraltar… The body was picked from the sea by Spanish fishermen off the coast of Algeciras (near Gibraltar), and of course, Spain being sympathetic to German Fascists (even though neutral throughout WWII), both the body and the documents etc it carried, ended up with the Nazi’s, and directly influenced the Nazi Military actions, defences, and orders from Hitler to his Generals. This, together with other ruses used ultimately convinced the Nazi High Command the Invasion would come to the Pas De Calais, and without doubt not only saved many, many lives of Allied troops, it enable the success of the D-Day Invasion on 6th June 1944…only 77 years ago… The grave of Major Mike Martin RM, is in Spain, where the body was ultimately buried…
@@highpath4776 Not quite, though close. There was people who acted as decoys for Churchill, but it seems none were aware that they were being used for that purpose. The British singer, Tommy Steele, has said he believes that his father was used as one of the decoys.
@@bigblue6917 I was actually thinking of the other classic film . "I Was Monty's Double' which I think re-inforced the dead body one as well. I had forgotten about the Churchills around mostly the UK. I had forgotten Montgomery's Name yesterday and could only think of Rommel, whom was both on the wrong side, and featured in one of the Spike Milligan wartime memoires.
You mention how building some of these lines would have caused a lot of disruption. True, that. But after the war, everyone had been used to a lot of said disruption, and what would be the harm in a little more, especially in good causes. This was a great opportunity to sort out some of the weird anomalies in the system, in particular the duplication, and to sort things out for the future. But my guess is that if it did not happen, this was probably because the funds were simply not available during the austere 1940s and 1950s
Interesting as always! I do enjoy the idea of an alternate universe where all of these were built as planned in the 50s, and how that’d be different to our rather more restrained reality.
Is that initial opening shot just after the map showing aroad curving up and away and the side of a house. Is that on the up side just after leaving hither green going towards CX? If it is I used to cycle round to there and watch the trains(1975 ish)
A point of order... at the time of these plans there wasn't 2 different forms of electrification.. the Midland line through Cricklewood wasn't electrified until the mid 1980's...at the time of the plans it was 100% steam hauled.
When did the LNER out of Liverpool St get its wires ? I wonder if the plan was LU on the north, SR on the south ( switching was already possible on the LSWR joint sections Wimbledon-East Putney
@@highpath4776 I don't see the point you're trying to make.. Jago says in the video that the line would've caused problems because of the 2 different current collection systems north and south of the river... I pointed out that, at the time of the plan the "BedPan" line through Cricklewood was still steam hauled and there were no plans for it's electrification... so his point about the "problems" of combining the 2 systems was nul and void... as to your point about the Wimbledon- East Putney line already having switching between systems you're comparing apples with oranges... While Southern and LU may use different current collection systems they are both 3rd rail DC which is a completely different kettle of fish to switching between 600-750v DC 3rd rail and 25kv AC overhead surely?
@@teflonlettuce4197 I was asking more if 3rd/4th rail systems were anticipated, the Bakerloo went to Watford Junction but I dont really recall the electric types used - were they all steam pre 1968?
It's a great wheeze to draw lines on maps and fantasize how London might have got a denser RER style network years before Paris had ever got going on theirs, but was anything ever costed? Given the cost of Crossrail 1 and the eye-watering estimates for Crossrail 2, these proposals could have been in a class of their own.
Something that you touched on very briefly, I can't stress how briefly, and something that has given me many a sleepless night, but why do the tube trains use a separate live and return rail where as the 'Overground' have just the one live rail with the return being through the running lines? 🤔
The London Underground operates with the negative rail in the middle, with the positive one being to the side of the running rails. The positive is always furthest away from the platforms in stations. The electricity is 630V DC rising to 750 spilt -250V middle rail +500V outer rail system in some places. The separate current rails isolate the current from the surrounding ground. If the running rails were used for the return, current eddies created by the high amps drawn by the trains would cause electrolytic corrosion of nearby underground pipes and other metal infrastructure. The Overground uses 750V DC third rail with return via the running rails. This does not pose the same electrolytic problem because the lines are laid on the surface where interference with metal pipework is not a problem. Some Overground trains use an overhead catenary system at 25kV, again with return via the running rails.
Tower Bridge Road station, marked on the map of these new lines, looks to be an important interchange for all these proposed new lines at or near to what is now London Bridge station. Was a separate new station part of the proposal? What was the state of London Bridge station when these plans were drawn?
So that’s number four done and dusted (notwithstanding any potential revelations necessitating a “Route 4: Supplemental” video 😜) and another interesting “thing that wasn’t” which I found intriguing. In fact, I am almost starting to find “not railways” almost as interesting as the ‘actual’ and ‘former’ varieties 🤔 I often wondered what was worthy of note in Cricklewood as I sped past on a train to Loughborough or Sheffield (OK, not THAT often, but maybe once or twice). And there it is in all its bovine technicolour glory! 🐄 If someone had said the phrase “Colourful Cow” as an answer, I might have envisaged a statue of my old friend Graham’s mother. Her language was indeed colourful, managing to conjugate the ‘f’ word in ways that mystified linguists and physics professors in equal measure, and Graham’s father often loudly maintained she was a bit of a silly...er...well anyway, you get the idea 🤷🏻♂️ Thank you for another splendid fix! 🍻👍🍀
Threading all those tunnels through central London would have been a nightmare, though I suppose it would be easier without the deep foundations modern skyscrapers require
So much ambition in these plans... The huge amount of time and money crossrail has been yet they planned/proposed multiple crossrail lines. I wonder how much they truly believed would happen?
A couple of the planned lines in 1946 were mutually reliant, i.e. you couldn’t build one without the other. Others were an either/or thing. I might do a video wrapping things up that looks at which ones were most likely.
When you've made videos for all 13 (or should I say 12a) routes are you going to edit together the magnum opus 45-60 minute documentary from the nearly 20 shorts you'll have on the Railway (London Plan) Committee project & proposals by then?
Speaking of postwar Britain, I’ve got a question not related to the underground. I’ve been reading a book by a Scottish doctor about working as the fleet physician for a whaling fleet. He talks about a meat shortage, and even says without the whale meat there wouldn’t be enough meat for everyone. His voyage was some time between the end of the war and 1959. Was there really a meat shortage for that long after the war? Does anyone remember eating whale meat or have a parent who does?
Given the gargantuan nature of these plans, I think the new lines would have just ploughed through any tubeline tunnels in the way, and in no way have bothered to thread themselves through and round the Swiss cheese. The tubes affected would have been shut down, end of story.
Really interesting, as ever - I wonder how much these schemes would have cost, and then how much they would have been compromised had they been built in post war Britain...
Now that you have a copy of the original plan, you've been able to ditch the very low resolution map 😃👏🎉 Looking forward to route 5, even though you spoiled it in this one 😂
Enjoying the series. I thought you were supposed to say the words "spoiler alert" before you divulged the info so that people could put their fingers in their ears for a moment rather than after? 😉 On the map I can see they have the Northern Heights extension (at least to East Finchley and Ally Pally). I can't find route no.11 on the map but I do not want any more spoilers 😉
As a swiss i take offence in swiss cheese matters...our cheese is not...holled that much. Thats a gimmick for the export market for the most part. Thank you, you may continue
I thought, although maybe what I had heard was more myth than reality, yet when your opening sentence contained thing like "the war" and "ministers deciding on trains..." instead of listening (please do not cue the Buster Merryfield Uncle Albert...) I tjought you was about to go into a discussion on secret war time underground lines that the Ministry of Love, I mean War, used to do... well secret ministry things...
Thankyou and I did like it. But reading between the lines (as it were) it strikes me that it is always about money rather than what is better for the people. Just a thought
Jago, What about the oddly, and wonderfully named 'Dudden Hill Line' west London. I'm fully it aware that it was/is actually built, but it did some to play a rather odd role as some sort of sporadically operated 'cut through' to the congested west/north London commuter/main lines. Also, I'd love a video on Feltham marshalling yard - built as recently as 1918, when a full scale war was raging, Feltham was perhaps the first operational 'hump' yard in the UK, by hump yard I mean that wagons were sorted by gravity and 'retarders' into the appropriate trains. Apparently, Feltham was built to handle most of the south coast continental goods traffic to London.
By 1943 when this committee was meeting London had already been through the Blitz, had not been subjected to a major bombing campaign for over a year and was, V-weapons notwithstanding, pretty much as destroyed as it was going to get. It was also certain by then that the Allies were going to be invading the European mainland in the next year or two, in turn meaning that Nazi Germany was fully expected to be defeated within a few years, and so planning for rebuilding after the war was essential. Nothing fishy about it, in my opinion.
My gran is still alive and she’s said Nothing like that England knew they was going to win the war two years in advance 😂 The Americans hadn’t even joined then 😂👌🏾
@@englishjona6458 I very deliberately didn't say they knew two years in advance that they were going to win, but it was a fact that by 1943 the tide had turned against the Germans and it really was just a matter of time; the Allied leaders (military and political) certainly understood that. If you look at WW2 with a historian's long-term view, once the Nazis got themselves stalemated on land in Russia in 1942 and lost the Battle of the Atlantic at sea in the same year (meaning they were no longer significantly disrupting the Allied supply lines across the Atlantic), it then just became a case of a slow, potentially very slow, grind until logistical reality meant that Nazi Germany collapsed. Of course ordinary English people, including my own grandparents, had no way of knowing that given the limited information being released to the public, unless they were military historians themselves, but those in relevant parts of the government understood that as long as the Allies had continued access to supplies and the Axis didn't, the Axis would eventually lose. As a matter of interest, the Americans joined the war in 1941 after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. By the start of 1943 American soldiers were fighting in North Africa, forming the anvil against which the Eighth Army's hammer smashed the Afrika Korps.
@@englishjona6458 America joined the war after Pearl Harbour in December 1941. US air forces arrived here shortly afterwards and GIs started arriving here, in bulk, in 1943. I heard yesterday (on Radio 4) that the US military were trying to persuade Churchill to invade France as early as 1942!! He, of course, was having none of it.
I'm not a fan of 𝒂𝒏𝒚 sculpture really, although there are a few exceptions to that. I have a particular problem with irrelevant, "arty" stuff, that serves no purpose apart from being "clever". The multi-coloured cow is superb though, although quite why it's in South-West Trains colours - I can't imagine. A quick google didn't enlighten me so any chance of a bit more about this wonderful creation please? What colour would the milk be? 👍👌😁
So if these routes were to be underground rather than above ground, why can't they just build us more Underground in south London? We're very much the forgotten country down here.
![CAMPปลิ้น | รวม Highlight 2024! PART [1/2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6hnvNnvYloU/mqdefault.jpg)
There’s an 11 year old boy inside of me that can’t get enough of this channel! 🙏🏿
Really interesting, the more I watch your videos the more I want to go out again.😍
What is this “out” you speak of ;) 🐿
@@SecretSquirrelFun 😄
You're never alone at The Strand.
As a Lewisham resident for the first 40 years of my life, and priding myself on having a good knowledge of London history, I had no idea about this! Thank you.
A couple of intetesting facts about Cricklewood Station. The colourful cow is to remember that this area used to be called Cow Green. The old station building that appeared briefly is used by a junk man, and he has his own personal traffic light to get out of his yard onto the busy crossroads.
Should have been an all green cow
These lines are a bit like giving a set of frustrated travellers across London a set of pencils and asking them to make a railway that would make their journeys easier - ignoring logistics or anything approaching consideration of potential repercussions..
You have just described the 19th century approach to the railways of Britain. If you include some spurious claims to how it's going to make the shareholders rich beyond their wildest dreams that is.
I remember once seeing a tube platform map where someone had drawn on a new line, calling it Gary's Line - we've all dreamed of a new line designed just to serve our own transport needs 😁
A bit like HS2?
@@therighthonsirdoug no, because HS2 is something we need.
@@therighthonsirdoug HS2 leaves me confused. There are currently 2 main lines between Birmingham & London. Not convinced shaving half an hour off the journey achieves much. It would make more sense to me if HS2 connected directly to HS1 so it would be possible to travel directly from northern cities to Europe. Tbh, spend the money on improving rail infrastructure in the west or north would be better than another line to London. Duplicate services to London were axed under Beeching so why reinstate them now? Or am I missing something? ££££'s I guess...
There's a great londonist article on this topic featuring a fictional tube map of the planned lines. According to that map, route 4 would be called the 'Cricklefleet' line. The map is much easier to read as well.
Found it! Thanks.
londonist.com/london/transport/a-tube-map-based-on-proposals-from-the-1940s-which-didn-t-happen
Cricklewood - the epicentre of London's acid trip culture if that cow is anything to go by. I go through there every day and wouldnt have imagined other ideas.
Looking forward to the potential reopening of the Dudding Hill line though, if that ever goes ahead.
Incredible how grandiose the whole scheme of lines was.
Phew, you're back. I was concerned 'The Sickness' was taking its toll!
Nope, just experimenting with release times.
@@JagoHazzard Any time is a good time!
I noticed a month or so ago that the old shopping arcade at Charring Cross is now closed, it housed a curio of London. Did you ever venture (or get lost) down there?
@@JagoHazzard Now then, you remember what happened to Experiment. Mr Hazzard
This is from a while back. He already released Route 5 on Patreon weeks ago.
@@highpath4776 Yes, he got developed into the Prince of Wales! (Yes, I know, but you've got to let a LNWR buff have his joke!)
Glad you're feeling better jago, outstanding as ever
You're back, at the front. Cricklewood. Oh Goody!
That map though...a bit of an icon already.
Goodie Goodie yum yum!
Uxbridge still has all 3 stations and lines (as walked by Geoff Marshall recently!)
Did no one think of a station in the basement of Selfridges for the west end ? or Tottenham Ct road, maybe using the astoria site.
As Bart Simpson once said "Don't paint a cow man!!!"
Hi Jago - great video as usual etc etc! The shot of Victoria Station at 3.22 (the Southern Railway 'bit' on the left and the other 'bit' on the right) got me thinking: could you do a a vid on the station's history and how two such differing (albeit beautiful) structures came to land next to each other. Thanking you kindly
“During the Second World War...”
Why am I thinking of Uncle Albert, when you say that 😂
Ah the joy of another Tale from the Tube. - Love these lines that never where, when I was a kid Iived near Highgate tube and saw the above ground station. From there I learnt about the 'Northern line' that wasn't. - I even heard that it could have been extended out to Oxford in one idea floated.
Please continue the series and perhaps cap it off with a summary video? - If you want any other ideas,you could talk about some of the swiss cheese tunnels and constructions, and the rumours and legends around them. Jubilee line and escape tunnels for the Royal family,anyone?!
Glad you seem to be recovering.
I am thinking of a summary video - people have asked some interesting questions that I don’t think would fit into any individual video.
The more one looks at these schemes, the more one thinks that Thameslink, Crossrail and the Overground achieve most of it for a fraction of the cost and effort. As for Tower Bridge Road, as the details become clearer, the mind boggles. The reality was that no new lines got built under Central London between the 1920s and the 1967 completion of the Victoria Line.
Thameslink perhaps; it only really involved putting one short stretch of tunnel back into use and building some dual-voltage trains. Crossrail is in a different league and also involves a long tunnel as these schemes would have done.
@@IndigoJo Good point, although Thameslink has also needed extra work at Blackfriars and south of the Thames to bring it to full fruition. However the schemes described in the plan seem to be implying separate tunnels rather than shared. Imagine the cost of 10 Crossrails!
@@iankemp1131 And we'd still be waiting for them to be completed!! I suspect that Crossrail 2 will, after the Elizabeth Line, be called the Charles Line, the William Line or the George Line depending on when its completed. :-)
What about doing a video of the Dudding Hill Line that London Overground is imposing a new service from Cricklewood or Brent Cross West and Hendon to Brentford and Weybridge via Willesden Junction/Harlesden and South Acton.
With new stations being added as well electrification including a new Overgrown station close to Brentford FC Community Stadium which is to be located on Lionel Road. And freight trains use the non-electrified freight line in North London. Also what about doing the West Ealing-Greenford branch line.
Dudding Hill is hopefully showing up in a video I have planned, when I get around to filming it.
@@JagoHazzard Sweet :D
Thanks for the video. And I must say you're sounding better. Which I'm pleased about.
Another brilliant video sir.
Afternoon Jago? Brilliant!
Keep up the good work fella and stay safe 🚂
Afternoon? Why it's not 9:00 AM, yet. Oh wait(checks UTC clock). Golly, it's almost 1600 in London. 😆
Thanking you once again for sharing your video with me.
Take care 🙂🐿
For those interested - the 'Ring Road' alluded to is probably the A-ring...
I'm looking forward to the correction video, that we'll get in about two days time.
Nothing quite like seeing jago uploaded a video 3 hours ago and cracking open a nice beer
Line 4, the line that never was. Line 5, the was who never line... (insert Goon show laugh track here)
Is this the unaired sequel to their version of Quatermass. Turns out Mina doors was Mind the Doors.
In the 1940s the man who never was was some kind of decoy for churchill or someone like that.
@@highpath4776…’The Man Who Never Was’ refers to a top secret ploy by the Allies in World War II to convince the Nazi’s that the Invasion of Europe was going to take place in the Par De Calais, and in a different period to the actual Invasion. A body was chosen from a few available, and was given a checkable military identity…Namely, a Major Mike Martin of the Royal Marines. The body was put into uniform, with correct papers, letters from home, an unposted letter to a loved one, keys, wallet, money, club membership card etc… and finally, a set of plans, drawings, letters and other materials relating to the (false) Invasion location and time period, and the body was put into the sea (from a submarine), in the Straights of Gibraltar… The body was picked from the sea by Spanish fishermen off the coast of Algeciras (near Gibraltar), and of course, Spain being sympathetic to German Fascists (even though neutral throughout WWII), both the body and the documents etc it carried, ended up with the Nazi’s, and directly influenced the Nazi Military actions, defences, and orders from Hitler to his Generals. This, together with other ruses used ultimately convinced the Nazi High Command the Invasion would come to the Pas De Calais, and without doubt not only saved many, many lives of Allied troops, it enable the success of the D-Day Invasion on 6th June 1944…only 77 years ago… The grave of Major Mike Martin RM, is in Spain, where the body was ultimately buried…
@@highpath4776 Not quite, though close. There was people who acted as decoys for Churchill, but it seems none were aware that they were being used for that purpose. The British singer, Tommy Steele, has said he believes that his father was used as one of the decoys.
@@bigblue6917 I was actually thinking of the other classic film . "I Was Monty's Double' which I think re-inforced the dead body one as well. I had forgotten about the Churchills around mostly the UK. I had forgotten Montgomery's Name yesterday and could only think of Rommel, whom was both on the wrong side, and featured in one of the Spike Milligan wartime memoires.
Jago , I intend to watch ALLof them
In tribute to Douglas Adams I do hope the next video is a Quintessential tale.
Very interesting. Thank you once again
You mention how building some of these lines would have caused a lot of disruption. True, that. But after the war, everyone had been used to a lot of said disruption, and what would be the harm in a little more, especially in good causes. This was a great opportunity to sort out some of the weird anomalies in the system, in particular the duplication, and to sort things out for the future. But my guess is that if it did not happen, this was probably because the funds were simply not available during the austere 1940s and 1950s
Interesting as always! I do enjoy the idea of an alternate universe where all of these were built as planned in the 50s, and how that’d be different to our rather more restrained reality.
Yes, British alternative reality is always interesting. Just ask Doctor Who.
Hey, thanks for mentioning St. Albans
Was that Cow half-hinched from a field at Bradwell Abbey in Milton Keynes….and given a new paint job…???
I wonder what effect some of these Lines That Never Where would have effected the economic development of the East End in the post-war period?
Someone has missed off the word "You're" from the 'welcome to Cricklewood' sign.......
Did London have a Cow Parade at some point? Or could the one shown be from the 2006 Edinburgh Cow Parade?
Is that initial opening shot just after the map showing aroad curving up and away and the side of a house. Is that on the up side just after leaving hither green going towards CX? If it is I used to cycle round to there and watch the trains(1975 ish)
I was disappointed not to spot a Goodies reference, given that you were at Cricklewood.
Was it just too subtle for me?
The Tube would've been easier to build if all they had to tunnel through was Swiss cheese.
I want a lewisham to cricklewood route 4, as a south london resident
Tastier too.
A point of order... at the time of these plans there wasn't 2 different forms of electrification.. the Midland line through Cricklewood wasn't electrified until the mid 1980's...at the time of the plans it was 100% steam hauled.
When did the LNER out of Liverpool St get its wires ? I wonder if the plan was LU on the north, SR on the south ( switching was already possible on the LSWR joint sections Wimbledon-East Putney
@@highpath4776 I don't see the point you're trying to make.. Jago says in the video that the line would've caused problems because of the 2 different current collection systems north and south of the river... I pointed out that, at the time of the plan the "BedPan" line through Cricklewood was still steam hauled and there were no plans for it's electrification... so his point about the "problems" of combining the 2 systems was nul and void... as to your point about the Wimbledon- East Putney line already having switching between systems you're comparing apples with oranges... While Southern and LU may use different current collection systems they are both 3rd rail DC which is a completely different kettle of fish to switching between 600-750v DC 3rd rail and 25kv AC overhead surely?
@@teflonlettuce4197 I was asking more if 3rd/4th rail systems were anticipated, the Bakerloo went to Watford Junction but I dont really recall the electric types used - were they all steam pre 1968?
It's a great wheeze to draw lines on maps and fantasize how London might have got a denser RER style network years before Paris had ever got going on theirs, but was anything ever costed? Given the cost of Crossrail 1 and the eye-watering estimates for Crossrail 2, these proposals could have been in a class of their own.
Away interesting. Videos. 👍🏻🏴🇬🇧
Something that you touched on very briefly, I can't stress how briefly, and something that has given me many a sleepless night, but why do the tube trains use a separate live and return rail where as the 'Overground' have just the one live rail with the return being through the running lines? 🤔
The London Underground operates with the negative rail in the middle, with the positive one being to the side of the running rails. The positive is always furthest away from the platforms in stations. The electricity is 630V DC rising to 750 spilt -250V middle rail +500V outer rail system in some places.
The separate current rails isolate the current from the surrounding ground. If the running rails were used for the return, current eddies created by the high amps drawn by the trains would cause electrolytic corrosion of nearby underground pipes and other metal infrastructure.
The Overground uses 750V DC third rail with return via the running rails. This does not pose the same electrolytic problem because the lines are laid on the surface where interference with metal pipework is not a problem. Some Overground trains use an overhead catenary system at 25kV, again with return via the running rails.
The wonderfully-named Tubeprune group explains all here: www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/tractioncurr.htm#Why%204%20Rails?
@@RadioJonophone Thank you for the comprehensive explanation, I wasn't aware of induction corrosion issue.
@@edwardsadler7515 Thanks for that, a most interesting and informative link.
@@RadioJonophone The nearest "nearby underground pipes" are the cast metal tube tunnels (newer ones are concrete so wouldn't be affected).
Tower Bridge Road station, marked on the map of these new lines, looks to be an important interchange for all these proposed new lines at or near to what is now London Bridge station. Was a separate new station part of the proposal? What was the state of London Bridge station when these plans were drawn?
Sorry...just watched your video on route 5 which partially answers my question.
So that’s number four done and dusted (notwithstanding any potential revelations necessitating a “Route 4: Supplemental” video 😜) and another interesting “thing that wasn’t” which I found intriguing. In fact, I am almost starting to find “not railways” almost as interesting as the ‘actual’ and ‘former’ varieties 🤔
I often wondered what was worthy of note in Cricklewood as I sped past on a train to Loughborough or Sheffield (OK, not THAT often, but maybe once or twice). And there it is in all its bovine technicolour glory! 🐄
If someone had said the phrase “Colourful Cow” as an answer, I might have envisaged a statue of my old friend Graham’s mother. Her language was indeed colourful, managing to conjugate the ‘f’ word in ways that mystified linguists and physics professors in equal measure, and Graham’s father often loudly maintained she was a bit of a silly...er...well anyway, you get the idea 🤷🏻♂️
Thank you for another splendid fix! 🍻👍🍀
I do like a nice bit of rainbow cow.
Threading all those tunnels through central London would have been a nightmare, though I suppose it would be easier without the deep foundations modern skyscrapers require
So much ambition in these plans... The huge amount of time and money crossrail has been yet they planned/proposed multiple crossrail lines. I wonder how much they truly believed would happen?
A couple of the planned lines in 1946 were mutually reliant, i.e. you couldn’t build one without the other. Others were an either/or thing. I might do a video wrapping things up that looks at which ones were most likely.
@@JagoHazzard bring your one whiteboard and markers (or those OHP overlays might work)
You sound like you've been poorly with a bad cold (a bit nasally) . Hope you're feeling better, thanks for this video, very interesting as usual!!
When you've made videos for all 13 (or should I say 12a) routes are you going to edit together the magnum opus 45-60 minute documentary from the nearly 20 shorts you'll have on the Railway (London Plan) Committee project & proposals by then?
I think if I were to, I’d likely do a complete remake to avoid all the repetitive bits. Hmm...
Speaking of postwar Britain, I’ve got a question not related to the underground. I’ve been reading a book by a Scottish doctor about working as the fleet physician for a whaling fleet. He talks about a meat shortage, and even says without the whale meat there wouldn’t be enough meat for everyone. His voyage was some time between the end of the war and 1959. Was there really a meat shortage for that long after the war? Does anyone remember eating whale meat or have a parent who does?
My grandma talked about it.
Given the gargantuan nature of these plans, I think the new lines would have just ploughed through any tubeline tunnels in the way, and in no way have bothered to thread themselves through and round the Swiss cheese. The tubes affected would have been shut down, end of story.
No train to Cricklewood? I guess that’s why the Goodies had a Trandem…
Really interesting, as ever - I wonder how much these schemes would have cost, and then how much they would have been compromised had they been built in post war Britain...
Glad you're well Sir! Did the plans at Cricklewood include a trandem hire scheme?
😊
Have you recovered from ‘the sickness’? Hope you’re feeling better!
Thanks! Much better now.
Ah... London the Swiss cheese underground region without any neutrality.
The Swiss Centre building at Leicester Square is much missed
Amazing content, as always. Do a bit longer videos 😉
Now that you have a copy of the original plan, you've been able to ditch the very low resolution map 😃👏🎉
Looking forward to route 5, even though you spoiled it in this one 😂
Enjoying the series.
I thought you were supposed to say the words "spoiler alert" before you divulged the info so that people could put their fingers in their ears for a moment rather than after? 😉
On the map I can see they have the Northern Heights extension (at least to East Finchley and Ally Pally).
I can't find route no.11 on the map but I do not want any more spoilers 😉
‘Allo ‘Allo
As a swiss i take offence in swiss cheese matters...our cheese is not...holled that much. Thats a gimmick for the export market for the most part. Thank you, you may continue
Caused by farting bacteria I understand
I thought, although maybe what I had heard was more myth than reality, yet when your opening sentence contained thing like "the war" and "ministers deciding on trains..." instead of listening (please do not cue the Buster Merryfield Uncle Albert...) I tjought you was about to go into a discussion on secret war time underground lines that the Ministry of Love, I mean War, used to do... well secret ministry things...
Thankyou and I did like it. But reading between the lines (as it were) it strikes me that it is always about money rather than what is better for the people. Just a thought
Clearly, the reason this line never existed is that there are no such places as "Lewisham" or "Cricklewood".
They started stopping there??
They obviously re-started after stopping there.
Perhaps they just restarted stopping starting there.
Thought the thumbnail for this at first glance was a South West Trains EMU
Only in terms of speed HEYOOOOO
@@JagoHazzard Wheyyyyyyy
If you think about it there were hundreds of lines that never were, or proposed.😉
Lewisham to Cricklewood, who wanted this and why?
It was more two routes n and s into central london, and joining up avoids a terminal in the middle.
Do Wallace and Gromit know that there's Swiss cheese under London?
TH-cam closed captioning describes your outro as “Music” maybe to some ears..
jaaaaggggoooo!!!
whoops caps lock was on....JJAAAAAAGGGOOOOO!!!!!
Well ... at least we have the ( colourful ? ) cow, but ( Dr Beeching , GRR ) .... DAVE™🛑
Jago,
What about the oddly, and wonderfully named 'Dudden Hill Line' west London.
I'm fully it aware that it was/is actually built, but it did some to play a rather odd role as some sort of sporadically operated 'cut through' to the congested west/north London commuter/main lines.
Also, I'd love a video on Feltham marshalling yard - built as recently as 1918, when a full scale war was raging, Feltham was perhaps the first operational 'hump' yard in the UK, by hump yard I mean that wagons were sorted by gravity and 'retarders' into the appropriate trains.
Apparently, Feltham was built to handle most of the south coast continental goods traffic to London.
I do want to have a look at Dudden Hill, but as part of a larger video idea. I wrote the script in February last year.
Yay! CGL rail.
The thing that strikes me as odd is, why would they be thinking about this during the war, sounds Extremely fishy
By 1943 when this committee was meeting London had already been through the Blitz, had not been subjected to a major bombing campaign for over a year and was, V-weapons notwithstanding, pretty much as destroyed as it was going to get. It was also certain by then that the Allies were going to be invading the European mainland in the next year or two, in turn meaning that Nazi Germany was fully expected to be defeated within a few years, and so planning for rebuilding after the war was essential. Nothing fishy about it, in my opinion.
@@atraindriver Thanks, that makes things clearer
My gran is still alive and she’s said Nothing like that England knew they was going to win the war two years in advance 😂 The Americans hadn’t even joined then 😂👌🏾
@@englishjona6458 I very deliberately didn't say they knew two years in advance that they were going to win, but it was a fact that by 1943 the tide had turned against the Germans and it really was just a matter of time; the Allied leaders (military and political) certainly understood that.
If you look at WW2 with a historian's long-term view, once the Nazis got themselves stalemated on land in Russia in 1942 and lost the Battle of the Atlantic at sea in the same year (meaning they were no longer significantly disrupting the Allied supply lines across the Atlantic), it then just became a case of a slow, potentially very slow, grind until logistical reality meant that Nazi Germany collapsed.
Of course ordinary English people, including my own grandparents, had no way of knowing that given the limited information being released to the public, unless they were military historians themselves, but those in relevant parts of the government understood that as long as the Allies had continued access to supplies and the Axis didn't, the Axis would eventually lose.
As a matter of interest, the Americans joined the war in 1941 after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. By the start of 1943 American soldiers were fighting in North Africa, forming the anvil against which the Eighth Army's hammer smashed the Afrika Korps.
@@englishjona6458 America joined the war after Pearl Harbour in December 1941. US air forces arrived here shortly afterwards and GIs started arriving here, in bulk, in 1943. I heard yesterday (on Radio 4) that the US military were trying to persuade Churchill to invade France as early as 1942!! He, of course, was having none of it.
As usual erudite and interesting
London sure would have been routed..
I'm not a fan of 𝒂𝒏𝒚 sculpture really, although there are a few exceptions to that. I have a particular problem with irrelevant, "arty" stuff, that serves no purpose apart from being "clever". The multi-coloured cow is superb though, although quite why it's in South-West Trains colours - I can't imagine. A quick google didn't enlighten me so any chance of a bit more about this wonderful creation please? What colour would the milk be? 👍👌😁
Well Brown Cows eat Green Grass and give white (or yellow) milk.
So if these routes were to be underground rather than above ground, why can't they just build us more Underground in south London? We're very much the forgotten country down here.
They are planning an extension to the Bakerloo and the DLR.
St Allbran
3:00 this comment has nothing to do with the videos topic but the new coca-cola advert is gross, I hate that tongue
Far too short! Get repetitive if you need to!
first comment
No
No one cares
@@user-me2qq6lx7i Well... Mr abdullah does, but no one else cares!
@@peterdean8009 why you replying then saddo
@@user-me2qq6lx7i but you took time out your day to respond?