In the book 'Beneath The City Streets' it's stated that the deep shelters were (allegedly) intended to form a 'deep District Line' post war, it's certainly an area for future research.
@@horchan1216 The old 140 used to be s-o-o-o-o slow in rush hour - I tried it but I'd often miss the train so ended up driving. There is now the limited stop X140 but I've retired now so who cares....:-)
Hi Jago - I'm no historian, but I am a fan of your videos and hope I can have a go at answering the question of the plans for the deep level shelters built by London Underground. According to London's Secret Tubes by Andrew Emmerson and Tony Beard, the locations chosen for the shelters derive from plans made in 1935 and 1936 for express lines to increase capacity on existing tube railways. On the Northern line, one express tunnel would branch off around Archway or Kentish Town, and rejoin the existing tracks at Tottenham Court Road or Waterloo. The second Tunnel would diverge at Kennington and run to Balham. On the Central line, the express tunnels were proposed to run between Marble Arch and Liverpool Street. Express trains would run fast through the new tunnels, skipping congested stations, but otherwise use the existing lines. The plans evolved somewhat, and although all the deep shelters were built along the planned express routes, exactly how the shelters would be used as railways was not fully defined. They could have been used as bypass lines for standard tube-profile trains otherwise running in the existing Northern or Central line tunnels as intended-pre war. However, I have seen a cross-section diagram drawn by London Underground at the time of the shelter construction, showing that a subsurface-profile train similar to the Q38 design could fit through the tunnels, suggesting consideration was made of using them as entirely separate new lines with larger trains. What is clear is that the shelter tunnels are only 5 metres diameter, which is insufficient for both a train and a platform for passengers, so any station with a deep level shelter beneath is one that the express trains would not stop at. Regarding the reuses of the City and South London Railway station at King William Street and their tunnel under the Thames, I think both are unlikely. King William Street's platform tunnel is situated east of the tunnel under the river and oriented east-west, so in the wrong place and pointing the wrong way for the new line. It is also only just long enough for a tiny loco and three carriages. It may have been convenient as an access point for excavating a new station though - a role it currently serves for the ongoing Bank Station Capacity Upgrade. The CSLR's tunnels under the Thames were only 3.1 metre diameter, vs 3.7 metres for standard tube tunnels or 5 metres for the shelters, and had a gradient of 1 in 14 (compared with a max of 1 in 20 on the DLR) so also of limited use for the new railway. The disused station at Euston is only an abandoned entrance to the active platforms, so could have been reopened as part of a wider reconstruction of Euston station to facilitate the new line, but could not have served as a standalone station.
Or my rather cynical version: 'Lines that could have been, but after a lot of cigars and brandy, some bigwigs sitting around a table unanimously decided: "Bollocks to it. The Proles can walk." '
About 35 years ago, I went with the Lloyds of London historical society into the King William Street tunnel. We were supplied with boiler suits, which was just as well as we reappeared at London Bridge, very grubby. We went down through a manhole cover in an office building next to London Bridge and reappeared, somewhat to the surprise of the public, through an iron door onto a tube platform at London Bridge. I believe it was last used as a bomb shelter in late 1944/early 1945, against V1 flying bombs and there were some torn remnants of WW2 government posters at the King William Street end.
I did it 40 years ago but from the King William Street end and although we could walk part way under the Thames we couldn't go right through to London Bridge. Fascinating though, especially the wartime posters on the walls at King William Street.
@@iankemp1131 To get the whole way through to London Bridge, you had to crawl through a cable duct, which is why we ended up looking like chimney sweeps.
@@wilsonlaidlaw Rather you than me. I salute you! Glad I just stayed at the KWS end. It was also getting pretty wet underfoot where we stopped under the Thames. I still remember hearing a ship's propellers going past over my head; gave some idea what it must be like in a submarine.
At 3.40, it shows an entrance to what was once the Furnival Street entrance of BT's Kingsway Trunk Switching Centre off High Holborn and which closed I think around 1982. I worked there for many years. The main entrance to the complex (situated about 200 feet underground) was an innocuous doorway in High Holborn almost opposite Chancery Lane. Around 200 staff worked there in its heyday. There was another entrance at Took's Court. The furthest extremity was below Holborn Circus. The complex formed two large parallel tunnels of around a quarter of a mile long with several offshoots. It had a restaurant, tea bars, a pub (probably the deepest in London) and an artesian well with food for 200 people for 6 months in case of a nuclear attack. It is said that it was built to house a tube station but the project was subsequently abandoned and then taken over by PO Telecomcommunications. It is situated below the Central Line and has emergency access to it at one point.
Jago - well worth a look at "Beneath the City Streets" by Peter Laurie (Allen Lane / Penquin 1970) . In part of his book, he argued that the Victoria Line route was more to do with joining up "hardened" office blocks that could be quickly repaired & repurposed as the core of post-nuclear government, with the tunnelised tube line as the government safe passage highway . Certainly until the end of cold war government planners were very keen on resilience, secondary and repurposed use. Thanks for your stuff - always stimulating.
@@southron_d1349 Well yes, because you'd need Baker Street first, if I remember correctly, unless you were going via seven sisters and using Addlington's Revised Timetable.
Jago, you never fail to inform, entertain and amuse me. A fantastic offering. I almost fell off my chair laughing when you said that logically we would go from Line 1 to Line 9. Thanks, you have brightened up a difficult day for me.
Just come and visit! Some flights are pretty cheap, find inexpensive accomodation outside central London, and have a good time! Us Londoners actually like visitors (despite the sometimes frosty exterior!)
That map looks like something an excited 12 year old would have produced, covering London in fantasy rail lines😁 12A seems to be the express Northern Line, it's 12B which I find more exciting though, which seems to be taking what is now the High Barnet branch of the Northern Line and taking it down a brand new route down the Finchley Road to Baker Street then across London to Clapham Junction, where I assume it would have continued onwards. All in tunnel I imagine as the route was fully built over by then, so very expensive...
Fantastic video, thanks Hope you saw the abandoned infant school in Buck Street (to your left at 3:12 when you're shooting the shelter) which will be demolished for the new Camden Town station! Also, to add to your hypothesis, there's the deep level shelter at Belsize Park which could have been where line 2 would begin its dive under to Chalk Farm???
Lines that never were. Glazer street to Fenway Group station by ESL railroading. The community would not allow it and killed the idea off in a day. The railroading tycoons were forced to back track and try to re-hatch their plans to railroad us another way. P.S. Underground historians sounds very clandestine.
I really miss those big old lifts... Covent Garden comes to mind. You know, seasoned dark wooden panelling everywhere, automatic wooden (or even steel “lazy tong” ), doors. Almost straight out of Harry Potter. Magical. It’s been a while though. Wouldn’t it be good if the nice LT historical people re-installed a couple? I can almost smell the wood polish now. I know, nowt to do with this vid, but thought I’d throw that one into the air. Keep up the great work CW!
@@pras12100 Correct. It could be a nice feature to install one in the Transport Museum or Acton Depot though. With enough flame-retardant treatments, I'm sure one could be made to pass H+S regs.
@@eisemanrenyardjake don’t think I’ve heard that one! My mum had one of their 90s compilation albums which never left the slot in the car. But I’ve been meaning to check out some of their other stuff ever since they released the Bullingdon Boys single :)
Whilst there was no public shelter at St Pauls there was an electricity control room in the abandoned lift shaft. There were 8 regional controls, Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Nottingham, Thames North, Thames South and Bristol. National Control in the lift shaft coordinated the regional centres and managed flows on the National Grid, established in 1939.
My grandad worked at the goods yard, Roundhouse and stable yards for 45 yrs, in one coversation i had with him, he talked about taking horse and cart through a tunnel that went from there and resurfaced at the Elephant and Castle, he moaned that it was a knightmare passing each other, i said didnt he mean the tunnels running down to kingsway and the Aldwych, and he said you could come out there aswell, ive tried to look up the tunnel but this is the first time in 30 yrs ive found anyone talking about it.I use to play on the goods yard area and on the roofs of the stables and Roundhouse as a 8 -14 year old in the late 70's early 80's,when primrose hill station was still open and the roundhouse was shut, thats my secondary school (Haverstock) in the opening 0.28 (right of pic)..good times
1:28 It would be extremely unlikely that Route 2 would use the original C&SLR tunnels under the Thames. The C&SLR originally had a very small tunnel diameter, which wasn't enlarged until 1922-1923-some 22 years after the original route to the King William Street terminus was closed. Route 2 would presumably be designed to take Mainline-size trains, so it's tunnels would need to be considerably bigger than even the enlarged ones, much less the tiny original ones. Add to that the steep gradients and tight curves that the abandoned tunnels have (partly the reason why the original route was abandoned in the first place) and it would probably have been far cheaper and easier to just build a new tunnel from scratch than modify the C&SLR route to make it suitable for Route 2.
How about a video on the Bishopsgate Goods Yard? Seems like a very interesting bit of abandoned railway history which is still quite visible and imposing - although potentially difficult to film.
Those viaducts now have a vital purpose of blocking cars from crossing railway lines. They create natural "low traffic neigbourhoods" either side of them. But we need to open up some of the arches beneath them to create walking routes and cycle routes. I also think we need to have something, akin to a small greathead shield or TBM that can dig into railway embankments and leave behind tunnels that pedestrians and cyclists can use.
It would be interesting to see plans of those underground shelters. What level down were the rooms? What shape were they? And how were they aligned? Did they maybe look like disused ticket halls and long tunnel-like things that might be converted to platforms? If so, how did the platform rooms align?
Sounds like we need a video on Euston and particularly that abandoned tube station which I must admit I had never heard of. Presumably was on the Hampstead (Northern) line, but why didn't it just come up in the station as it does currently? Good that you've got a shot of it before it disappears.
Interesting all these cross London lines that were never built. The 3 cross London routes (City Widened Lines/Thameslink, East & West London Lines) were pretty much abandoned for through passenger working post war too until the late 80's/early 90's. Yet now, there is a major clamour for Crossrail, Crossrail 2, Thameslink 2 etc. Everything changes...
Any chance you could cover the amazing 24 hour operation at Vauxhall where the milk trains used to unload on platform 1 via the milk spigots for United Dairies? Also perhaps some of the majestic operations of the huge goods depots like Bishopsgate but also the one that became a popular filming location in Battersea where you could watch for hours wagons being shunted in and out and fleets of National Carriers, BRS and British Rail Scarab containers heading in and out like an anthill in full flow? I thought to ask about Vauxhall as I live now not far from Templecombe which was a major collection and sorting point for the massive milk trains that were sorted in the two huge yards at Templecombe, people see just the piddly single platform but don't realise there were these two huge marshalling yards for coal and milk that fed London day and night.
Having worked in the late 80s on the lifts for the PSA/DoE in the deep shelters at Clapham North & Clapham High St converting them into underground stations would have required a lot of work for access, ticket halls etc. All the shelters were below the existing Northern line which had access via a stair case halfway along the shelter to the platform of the adjoining station.
Thanks on that, i understood they would be used by Network Rail sized stock and somehow, somewhere (Balham?) Join to the BR network to places south (and north at the other end)
The City and South abandoned tunnel is tube-sized, though (actually, IIRC it should be even slightly narrower than later tube tunnels). Plus, it was abandoned among other resons because it was stupidly steep on the City side, causing problems with the underpowered locos the CSLR used at the very beginning, which had to take a run to make it to the station or stall halfway through the climb. They would've had to re-bore it to make it usable by mainline trains for size and possibly reroute half of it for a more sane gradient, so I don't reckon using it would be a no brainer as you mentioned.
I thought it might've been a reference to US Route 1-9, a 31-mile highway in New Jersey from Woodbridge to New York City, but thats probably a bit of a reach. If anything, it's probably just the fact that hearing "Route 1" and "Route 9" in the same sentence triggers my Jersey instinct to go "Ooh, Route 1-9!"
Looking at that old school map reminds me of the moment I realised the London Tube Map was not design to scale. Some of the gaps are swimming pool lengths while others are a well over a dozen football pitches.
Good morning! Great work on route 9 🤣 I hope you get a few red tiles from abandoned tube station at Euston when they demolish it. Be cheeky and ask the lads working there 😉
I was fascinated to note what appears to be remains of a viaduct to the left of the west bound line when coming into Streatham Hill earlier today. Not noticed this before and wonder what it is , (or was).all about.
Ahhhh... but there _are_ shelters at Belsize Park (just toddle down the hill, fifty yards and on your left from the station exit); and I’d always assumed that the long abandoned Euston station tube exit, was one of the many originals on the network, which needed a separate exit built laterally, when escalators became the norm instead of lifts.
That would be Primrose Hill station. Which could reopen and for the London Overground to operate the Stratford-Willesden Junction & Watford Junction service via Primrose Hill. And a new station called New Bermondsey which could of been built following the extension of the East London Line to Clapham Junction and the station would of been above Surrey Canal Road and close to Millwall FC “The Den” Stadium. Which is planned to open in 2023 or 2024.
Saw the video for route 6, so went in search of a playlist for all the routes. Found one that included route 1 (named Lines That Never Were), so watched it all. Except it is all out of order, and that playlist only includes routes 1, 5, 6, and the correction video for 1-3. May be an idea to sort that out. A very interesting video series, makes me want to do so many more south london commuter stations plus more DLR and overground.
I'd love to hear more about the abandoned tunnel under the Thames. If there's enough info on it to perhaps warrant a separate video that would be great?
Didn't know they were knocking down the nice oxblood tiled Euston tube station. That's a real shame, where's the petition. They could at least dismantle all the bits and sell them on transport museum shop but they'd rather put it in the skip. I'd happily come down for the afternoon with a chisel and take some timeless souvenirs
Perhaps there was no technical plan to use the deep level air-raid shelters as the basis for a new Tube line, but some clever bloke in the Railways (County of London) Planning Committee thought that if at some point after the war someone wanted to plan such a line, there would be worse things to find en route than said shelters.
Tower Bridge Road was the site of the Bricklayers Arms goods terminal and (I think) the lines ran out past South Bermondsey - I think its a cycle track now. So presumably all of the line would have needed to be underground to not interfere with the goods traffic? (there is a map of the lines on wikipedia )
Bricklayers Arms became a goods depot after the closure of the passenger station way back in 1852 and was located on Page's Walk just off the Old Kent Road.
Fascinating yet again. My mind wanders to how London might have develloped had all these lines been built. I reckon it would have made many journeys easier and boosted growth on the south shore...or is it bank ? (Not a native English speaker, sorry hahaha) I’m already excited for the tertiary episode :D
@@JagoHazzard the shelter I was thinking of was the "Eisenhower Centre" the main (west) entrance is Goodge St, the east entrance is on Chenies St between Tottenham court road and Gower Street..
I don’t think the historians are laughing at you. They are possibly laughing with you...or more likely, thinking “Where did he get his intel?” 😜 I think the Northern Relief Line or whatever it was supposed to be called just ran out of impetus and, more importantly, funding, thus it got dropped fairly quickly in favour of other schemes which solved other problems at a fraction of the cost, like converting the LNER branches in the east to Central Line operations. 🤷🏻♂️ Great video mate, just another 10B to go! 👍
from mem, its up by Eton rd, there is a shelter at Chalk Farm Stn, behind it,some of it used to be in use as a sshh Secret muti storey by the police, for seized high performance cars bought by crime, my dad said the main bomb shelter was under Gilbys Gin ( main Camden lock building ) it was at and under Canal level where the second tow path bridge is against the building
I do wonder what form of traction these proposed lines were supposed to use. Steam seems out of the question for all the tunnels, diesel has similar problems. The lines in South London were already using third-rail, so maybe that would be extended northwards? Maybe they planned to use 1500V DC overhead wires, as was originally used on Liverpool Street-Shenfield? I expect a 750V third-rail/1500V overhead dual-voltage train was probably technologically feasible at the time. 25KV AC became the "standard", but it took until the 1970s for a 750V/25KV dual-voltage train to appear. Maybe had these plans gone ahead, it would have prevented the switch to 25KV AC?
@@highpath4776 Yeah, I've heard it from many sources, including some official London Transport historians. Also, if you look at where the shelters are located, both North And South of the river. Their alignment runs close too, if not parallels the Northern Line.
How many of the Lines That Never Were go places that don't get rail service today? One can dream of all of them getting built, but that would mostly be insane levels of redundancy. What unbuilt lines would have actually made great additions to the network today?
It's hard to tell which from the map, but one of Lines 2 or 4 seem to go through the Eisenhower Centre at Goodge St, which would make another connection for you.
Do you mean the dissused Primrose Hill Mainline Station, as the start point? (its close to chlalk farm on the underground, but the station you had on the video was definately primrose hill)
@@JagoHazzard Sorry to disagree, but that seems highly unlikely? It runs north-south, parallel to the Northern Line, eventually joining that route round Borough, as it was the original C&SL route. Also the dimensions are substandard even for modern tube stock, let alone full size Crossrail trains.
@@JagoHazzard Interesting. That would make more sense, although even then the above-ground access is very limited (if it still exists at all). The City is so packed that even finding a hole for a new vertical ventilation shaft might be a challenge!
The layout of the tunnels here is rather odd. Instead of being side by side, they in fact, sit on top of one another - this was because the tunnels had to follow the route of the road above, and not extend under any buildings. There is also, I helieve, quite a sharp curve on leaving the station. No surprises, then, that the line had a short life, and was replaced ASAP.
It is unfortunate they never considered relocating both Chalk Farm and Primrose Hill slightly eastwards just pass the Roundhouse to provide a better interchange.
@@brianbell4937 Oh no, get very extricated, Jago is Correct, at the time of the report the remaining station at Chalk Farm (North London Line), indeed was so called Chalk Farm (I think on of the buildings shown might have been the LNWR Chalk Farm closed in 1915 on an electrification program, but the other remained and not called Primrose Hill until 1950, after the map and report were drawn and written.
4:14 I am pretty sure it isnt just the historians who are laughing ^^ I am Dutch and I dont really care if there was, is, or ever would be an above ground undrgound line meandering through parts of London I probably never will visit. But your videos are very entertaining. Few weeks ago i thought I might be watching a bit too many of these London videas as I was watching a Joolz guides video and I knew what he was talking about, where is is locater and probably which Underground line to take to get there.. Oops. I only wish that The Dutch were more interested in their own history.
I think the idea was to Join the West Coast Services to one of the Southern Routes via the commercial centre of London , rather than Queens Road to Chalk Farm (which probably had a good surface level tram system)
Query: Chalk Farm main line station - Was that the same as Primrose Hill, or is there another Chalk Farm station I’m not aware of? P.S. If you become a time traveller, you can laugh at historians (and archeologists). :D
Part of Clapham South is used for growing vegetables ! - suggest you look up the relevant episode of London Transport Museum's Hidden London Hangouts on You Tube. In fact, why not watch them all as are all fascinating.
So, Chalk Farm station, as featured on the cover of the second, classic album by Madness, 'Absolutely' (whose inner sleeve features an LU roundel bearing the name 'Cairo East'), no longer exists as shown? Shame.
What an interesting observation. The shelters may well have been sites for stations. Much needed and would save a bob or two if the line was constructed. Just how station shaped or sized were the shelters? Even if only just protective holes in the ground, the land above would be in the right possession for conversion. Per comments on line colouring and clarity, the map proves the point. It really does look like a plate of spaghetti. The public would never stand for it if it was let loose on them. Rush hour would be mayhem. If requirements existed, and forced advancements in technology, say arbitrarily by 1900, things, designs, typefaces even, would be so different as new styles made use of the advances and artists were inspired by it. Who knows the knock on effects? The printing of money in colour would be an issue and thus fraud and technology for fraud prevention would evolve sooner.
Wouldn't the abandoned City and south London tunnels under the Thames have needed to be enlarged as they would have been too small to accommodate even the standard stock of the 1920s ? What is now the oldest part of the Northern line from(I think) from either Stockwell or Clapham Common to the City had their tunnels enlarged in the twenty's. I'm sure someone out there in Jago land will know more than me so please enlighten us.
@@JagoHazzard That's something, at least. Maybe they could use it for a new station. Wonder if it could somehow be used at the London Transport Museum that I honestly know nothing about other than the name.
I like the theory of the air raid shelters as a covert way of constructing a new Underground line. It would be an excellent ploy.
In the book 'Beneath The City Streets' it's stated that the deep shelters were (allegedly) intended to form a 'deep District Line' post war, it's certainly an area for future research.
It's not a theory, they were built for that reason. Thats why they are laid out like a station.
The most important route that was never built will always be the one under where I live to where I need to go. :)
Met line Uxbridge to Iver to link with the GWR. Would have saved me years of travel and stress...:-)
@@brianparker663 at least you got tfl rail now
@@alfect Sadly no help. I still have to go into London from Harrow and out again....:-(
@@brianparker663 bus to Hayes then the train?
@@horchan1216 The old 140 used to be s-o-o-o-o slow in rush hour - I tried it but I'd often miss the train so ended up driving. There is now the limited stop X140 but I've retired now so who cares....:-)
Hi Jago - I'm no historian, but I am a fan of your videos and hope I can have a go at answering the question of the plans for the deep level shelters built by London Underground.
According to London's Secret Tubes by Andrew Emmerson and Tony Beard, the locations chosen for the shelters derive from plans made in 1935 and 1936 for express lines to increase capacity on existing tube railways. On the Northern line, one express tunnel would branch off around Archway or Kentish Town, and rejoin the existing tracks at Tottenham Court Road or Waterloo. The second Tunnel would diverge at Kennington and run to Balham. On the Central line, the express tunnels were proposed to run between Marble Arch and Liverpool Street. Express trains would run fast through the new tunnels, skipping congested stations, but otherwise use the existing lines.
The plans evolved somewhat, and although all the deep shelters were built along the planned express routes, exactly how the shelters would be used as railways was not fully defined. They could have been used as bypass lines for standard tube-profile trains otherwise running in the existing Northern or Central line tunnels as intended-pre war. However, I have seen a cross-section diagram drawn by London Underground at the time of the shelter construction, showing that a subsurface-profile train similar to the Q38 design could fit through the tunnels, suggesting consideration was made of using them as entirely separate new lines with larger trains.
What is clear is that the shelter tunnels are only 5 metres diameter, which is insufficient for both a train and a platform for passengers, so any station with a deep level shelter beneath is one that the express trains would not stop at.
Regarding the reuses of the City and South London Railway station at King William Street and their tunnel under the Thames, I think both are unlikely. King William Street's platform tunnel is situated east of the tunnel under the river and oriented east-west, so in the wrong place and pointing the wrong way for the new line. It is also only just long enough for a tiny loco and three carriages. It may have been convenient as an access point for excavating a new station though - a role it currently serves for the ongoing Bank Station Capacity Upgrade.
The CSLR's tunnels under the Thames were only 3.1 metre diameter, vs 3.7 metres for standard tube tunnels or 5 metres for the shelters, and had a gradient of 1 in 14 (compared with a max of 1 in 20 on the DLR) so also of limited use for the new railway.
The disused station at Euston is only an abandoned entrance to the active platforms, so could have been reopened as part of a wider reconstruction of Euston station to facilitate the new line, but could not have served as a standalone station.
Sir Christopher Wren - 'Dished it out but couldn't take it' Imagine that in his obituary!
Geoff Marshall: London's abandoned lines
Jago Hazzard: London's abandoned lines (as in never built)
Pre-abandoned
@Ross Bourne Pre-demolished
@Ross Bourne Followed by Jago's own "Railways of London" plan and its planned routes
Or my rather cynical version:
'Lines that could have been, but after a lot of cigars and brandy, some bigwigs sitting around a table unanimously decided: "Bollocks to it. The Proles can walk." '
Jay Foreman: both, and also extinct airports.
Excellent. How about a follow up: "Lines that were never needed"?
I think you'd be hard pushed to find any that would fit that category!
@@Inkyminkyzizwoz If anyone can, Jago can....I have faith in him...lol
@@BibtheBoulder I'm sure Edward Watkin and James Staats Forbes will make sure that some lines do fit that category.
Two words: Cable car
California High Speed Rail?
About 35 years ago, I went with the Lloyds of London historical society into the King William Street tunnel. We were supplied with boiler suits, which was just as well as we reappeared at London Bridge, very grubby. We went down through a manhole cover in an office building next to London Bridge and reappeared, somewhat to the surprise of the public, through an iron door onto a tube platform at London Bridge. I believe it was last used as a bomb shelter in late 1944/early 1945, against V1 flying bombs and there were some torn remnants of WW2 government posters at the King William Street end.
I did it 40 years ago but from the King William Street end and although we could walk part way under the Thames we couldn't go right through to London Bridge. Fascinating though, especially the wartime posters on the walls at King William Street.
@@iankemp1131 To get the whole way through to London Bridge, you had to crawl through a cable duct, which is why we ended up looking like chimney sweeps.
@@wilsonlaidlaw Rather you than me. I salute you! Glad I just stayed at the KWS end. It was also getting pretty wet underfoot where we stopped under the Thames. I still remember hearing a ship's propellers going past over my head; gave some idea what it must be like in a submarine.
At 3.40, it shows an entrance to what was once the Furnival Street entrance of BT's Kingsway Trunk Switching Centre off High Holborn and which closed I think around 1982. I worked there for many years. The main entrance to the complex (situated about 200 feet underground) was an innocuous doorway in High Holborn almost opposite Chancery Lane. Around 200 staff worked there in its heyday. There was another entrance at Took's Court. The furthest extremity was below Holborn Circus.
The complex formed two large parallel tunnels of around a quarter of a mile long with several offshoots. It had a restaurant, tea bars, a pub (probably the deepest in London) and an artesian well with food for 200 people for 6 months in case of a nuclear attack. It is said that it was built to house a tube station but the project was subsequently abandoned and then taken over by PO Telecomcommunications. It is situated below the Central Line and has emergency access to it at one point.
Now I want to hear all about route 9.....keep up the good work, enjoying the series and, of course, the dry humour is tonic in the morning too.
are you finding: crossrail 2
Jago - well worth a look at "Beneath the City Streets" by Peter Laurie (Allen Lane / Penquin 1970) . In part of his book, he argued that the Victoria Line route was more to do with joining up "hardened" office blocks that could be quickly repaired & repurposed as the core of post-nuclear government, with the tunnelised tube line as the government safe passage highway . Certainly until the end of cold war government planners were very keen on resilience, secondary and repurposed use. Thanks for your stuff - always stimulating.
Chalk Farm, Mornington Crescent? That's a Rushton gambit if ever I heard one..
Thanks JH.
I was hoping for a Mornington Crescent comment!
The pub opposite Mornington Crescent station is called The Lyttleton Arms. I doubt there is a more pleasing juxtaposition of two buildings anywhere.
According to Finch's rules, his stating "Mornington Crescent" was illegal. Unless it was the Reverse Finch's, of course.
@@ianthomson9363 That is perfect!
@@southron_d1349 Well yes, because you'd need Baker Street first, if I remember correctly, unless you were going via seven sisters and using Addlington's Revised Timetable.
Jago, you never fail to inform, entertain and amuse me. A fantastic offering. I almost fell off my chair laughing when you said that logically we would go from Line 1 to Line 9. Thanks, you have brightened up a difficult day for me.
Love this series, I probably will never even visit London but these always are so interesting anyways
I'll never be able to visit either. But thanks to Jago, I know more about the place now than I ever did.
Just come and visit!
I learn more from JH than I did from my visit
You need to visit at least once in your life
Just come and visit! Some flights are pretty cheap, find inexpensive accomodation outside central London, and have a good time! Us Londoners actually like visitors (despite the sometimes frosty exterior!)
Been watching for weeks. Finally subscribed as thanks for your cameo over at The Tim Traveller.
That map looks like something an excited 12 year old would have produced, covering London in fantasy rail lines😁
12A seems to be the express Northern Line, it's 12B which I find more exciting though, which seems to be taking what is now the High Barnet branch of the Northern Line and taking it down a brand new route down the Finchley Road to Baker Street then across London to Clapham Junction, where I assume it would have continued onwards. All in tunnel I imagine as the route was fully built over by then, so very expensive...
Fantastic video, thanks
Hope you saw the abandoned infant school in Buck Street (to your left at 3:12 when you're shooting the shelter) which will be demolished for the new Camden Town station!
Also, to add to your hypothesis, there's the deep level shelter at Belsize Park which could have been where line 2 would begin its dive under to Chalk Farm???
Lines that never were. Glazer street to Fenway Group station by ESL railroading. The community would not allow it and killed the idea off in a day. The railroading tycoons were forced to back track and try to re-hatch their plans to railroad us another way.
P.S. Underground historians sounds very clandestine.
Yeah -- no interchange with existing lines. That would never have worked.
I really miss those big old lifts... Covent Garden comes to mind. You know, seasoned dark wooden panelling everywhere, automatic wooden (or even steel “lazy tong” ), doors. Almost straight out of Harry Potter. Magical. It’s been a while though. Wouldn’t it be good if the nice LT historical people re-installed a couple? I can almost smell the wood polish now. I know, nowt to do with this vid, but thought I’d throw that one into the air.
Keep up the great work CW!
I think all the wood on the underground was gradually phased out after the Kings Cross fire.
@@pras12100 Correct. It could be a nice feature to install one in the Transport Museum or Acton Depot though. With enough flame-retardant treatments, I'm sure one could be made to pass H+S regs.
Another informative Jago video! 👍 There are probably better ways to start the day......but I can't think of any.
He could dish it out but he couldn't take it....brilliant. Thanks, Jago :)
Jago Hazard: its just a theory of mine
Historians: sh*t we didn't think of that
Jago is a historian, at this point.
Dude, awesome picture 👍 the way the mic flipped down from the cap was always so cool to me for some reason when I was little
@@kaitlyn__L I had Bluetooth before Ericsson was out of nappies
These short documentaries. Are always. Interesting. Keep it up. 👍🏻
The main line station at Chalk Farm was renamed Primrose Hill by the time it was closed in 1992.
Good point! I’ll hold my hands up to that one.
Reading or hearing Primrose Hill always makes me think of Madness’ “Driving in my Car” song
@@kaitlyn__L Madness also had a song, I think an album-track on The Rise and Fall album called Primrose Hill
@@eisemanrenyardjake don’t think I’ve heard that one! My mum had one of their 90s compilation albums which never left the slot in the car. But I’ve been meaning to check out some of their other stuff ever since they released the Bullingdon Boys single :)
'Actual historians' are laughing with you Jago, with you! Always.
at least some of them- never forget that, for better or worse, historians are keen to disagree with one another
Whilst there was no public shelter at St Pauls there was an electricity control room in the abandoned lift shaft. There were 8 regional controls, Newcastle, Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham, Nottingham, Thames North, Thames South and Bristol. National Control in the lift shaft coordinated the regional centres and managed flows on the National Grid, established in 1939.
0:38 - The Ol' Primrose Hill station. How I miss it. Great content as always, Jago sir.
My grandad worked at the goods yard, Roundhouse and stable yards for 45 yrs, in one coversation i had with him, he talked about taking horse and cart through a tunnel that went from there and resurfaced at the Elephant and Castle, he moaned that it was a knightmare passing each other, i said didnt he mean the tunnels running down to kingsway and the Aldwych, and he said you could come out there aswell, ive tried to look up the tunnel but this is the first time in 30 yrs ive found anyone talking about it.I use to play on the goods yard area and on the roofs of the stables and Roundhouse as a 8 -14 year old in the late 70's early 80's,when primrose hill station was still open and the roundhouse was shut, thats my secondary school (Haverstock) in the opening 0.28 (right of pic)..good times
1:28 It would be extremely unlikely that Route 2 would use the original C&SLR tunnels under the Thames. The C&SLR originally had a very small tunnel diameter, which wasn't enlarged until 1922-1923-some 22 years after the original route to the King William Street terminus was closed. Route 2 would presumably be designed to take Mainline-size trains, so it's tunnels would need to be considerably bigger than even the enlarged ones, much less the tiny original ones. Add to that the steep gradients and tight curves that the abandoned tunnels have (partly the reason why the original route was abandoned in the first place) and it would probably have been far cheaper and easier to just build a new tunnel from scratch than modify the C&SLR route to make it suitable for Route 2.
Positive comment for the algorithm: I very much enjoyed this secondary tale from the tube. Thank you.
How about a video on the Bishopsgate Goods Yard? Seems like a very interesting bit of abandoned railway history which is still quite visible and imposing - although potentially difficult to film.
Those viaducts now have a vital purpose of blocking cars from crossing railway lines. They create natural "low traffic neigbourhoods" either side of them. But we need to open up some of the arches beneath them to create walking routes and cycle routes. I also think we need to have something, akin to a small greathead shield or TBM that can dig into railway embankments and leave behind tunnels that pedestrians and cyclists can use.
Perhaps someone can map Ley Lines over the routes of the deep level underground shelters
2:54 & 3:40 The old entrance\exit to Kingsway/Holburn telephone exchange?
3:15 There is (still) one at Belsize Park.
It would be interesting to see plans of those underground shelters. What level down were the rooms? What shape were they? And how were they aligned? Did they maybe look like disused ticket halls and long tunnel-like things that might be converted to platforms? If so, how did the platform rooms align?
One of them was used in a Doctor Who story in the 1970s. Check “The Sun Makers” if you’re interested.
Sounds like we need a video on Euston and particularly that abandoned tube station which I must admit I had never heard of. Presumably was on the Hampstead (Northern) line, but why didn't it just come up in the station as it does currently? Good that you've got a shot of it before it disappears.
Interesting all these cross London lines that were never built. The 3 cross London routes (City Widened Lines/Thameslink, East & West London Lines) were pretty much abandoned for through passenger working post war too until the late 80's/early 90's. Yet now, there is a major clamour for Crossrail, Crossrail 2, Thameslink 2 etc. Everything changes...
Great video, very interesting as always thanks!!
thankyou, looking forward to the next instalment. Never knew they farmed chalk. Will have to have a word with my old chemistry teacher.
Any chance you could cover the amazing 24 hour operation at Vauxhall where the milk trains used to unload on platform 1 via the milk spigots for United Dairies? Also perhaps some of the majestic operations of the huge goods depots like Bishopsgate but also the one that became a popular filming location in Battersea where you could watch for hours wagons being shunted in and out and fleets of National Carriers, BRS and British Rail Scarab containers heading in and out like an anthill in full flow? I thought to ask about Vauxhall as I live now not far from Templecombe which was a major collection and sorting point for the massive milk trains that were sorted in the two huge yards at Templecombe, people see just the piddly single platform but don't realise there were these two huge marshalling yards for coal and milk that fed London day and night.
I am playing with the idea of a video about Vauxhall...
@@JagoHazzard Followed by one about Ford. (Sussex or Devon? Or Old Ford, East London?)
Having worked in the late 80s on the lifts for the PSA/DoE in the deep shelters at Clapham North & Clapham High St converting them into underground stations would have required a lot of work for access, ticket halls etc.
All the shelters were below the existing Northern line which had access via a stair case halfway along the shelter to the platform of the adjoining station.
Thanks on that, i understood they would be used by Network Rail sized stock and somehow, somewhere (Balham?) Join to the BR network to places south (and north at the other end)
@@highpath4776 They were constructed in the late 30s by the ministry of Public buildings and works as airaid shelters.
The City and South abandoned tunnel is tube-sized, though (actually, IIRC it should be even slightly narrower than later tube tunnels). Plus, it was abandoned among other resons because it was stupidly steep on the City side, causing problems with the underpowered locos the CSLR used at the very beginning, which had to take a run to make it to the station or stall halfway through the climb.
They would've had to re-bore it to make it usable by mainline trains for size and possibly reroute half of it for a more sane gradient, so I don't reckon using it would be a no brainer as you mentioned.
Isn't it used by power and telecoms cables these days?
Was expecting a bizarre but satisfyingly logical reason why this would be about route 9.
In the NYC Subway, the 1 and 9 trains used to share tracks and operate skip-stop service (each train would stop at every other station), until 2005.
I thought it might've been a reference to US Route 1-9, a 31-mile highway in New Jersey from Woodbridge to New York City, but thats probably a bit of a reach. If anything, it's probably just the fact that hearing "Route 1" and "Route 9" in the same sentence triggers my Jersey instinct to go "Ooh, Route 1-9!"
Looking at that old school map reminds me of the moment I realised the London Tube Map was not design to scale. Some of the gaps are swimming pool lengths while others are a well over a dozen football pitches.
It’s bizarre when you look at the modem map and see stops a few hundred yards apart represented by the same gap as stops miles apart.
Very interesting thank you 😊
Good morning! Great work on route 9 🤣 I hope you get a few red tiles from abandoned tube station at Euston when they demolish it.
Be cheeky and ask the lads working there 😉
Hopefully they will reassemble it as a bar in the new HS2 Euston station, or something.
I was fascinated to note what appears to be remains of a viaduct to the left of the west bound line when coming into Streatham Hill earlier today. Not noticed this before and wonder what it is , (or was).all about.
Some interesting buildings here ! Along route 9 sorry route 2 , thanks for the film jago !
Ahhhh... but there _are_ shelters at Belsize Park (just toddle down the hill, fifty yards and on your left from the station exit); and I’d always assumed that the long abandoned Euston station tube exit, was one of the many originals on the network, which needed a separate exit built laterally, when escalators became the norm instead of lifts.
That would be Primrose Hill station. Which could reopen and for the London Overground to operate the Stratford-Willesden Junction & Watford Junction service via Primrose Hill.
And a new station called New Bermondsey which could of been built following the extension of the East London Line to Clapham Junction and the station would of been above Surrey Canal Road and close to Millwall FC “The Den” Stadium. Which is planned to open in 2023 or 2024.
G'morning, Jago!
Somebody has already told you you've got a catchy voice and I think the same, too.
Thanks!
Saw the video for route 6, so went in search of a playlist for all the routes. Found one that included route 1 (named Lines That Never Were), so watched it all. Except it is all out of order, and that playlist only includes routes 1, 5, 6, and the correction video for 1-3. May be an idea to sort that out.
A very interesting video series, makes me want to do so many more south london commuter stations plus more DLR and overground.
I'd love to hear more about the abandoned tunnel under the Thames. If there's enough info on it to perhaps warrant a separate video that would be great?
Didn't know they were knocking down the nice oxblood tiled Euston tube station. That's a real shame, where's the petition. They could at least dismantle all the bits and sell them on transport museum shop but they'd rather put it in the skip. I'd happily come down for the afternoon with a chisel and take some timeless souvenirs
I heard they were dismantling the tiling and putting it into storage, though to what end I don’t know.
Ah! You were round the corner at Queens Road and I didnt know! I would have got you a tea and a bun!
Mornington Crescent experts might enjoy the challenge of playing under "Railways (London Plan) Committee" rules.
Cracking video again sir.
Chalk lines gonna blow your mind
"Thanks to HS2" love it
Proves what I've been saying all along - Sir Christopher Wren was a total jerk!
Yeah! He borrowed my pencil and never gave it back :-(
@@brianparker663 Pfft! Ya build a few churches and you think you're God's Gift! Pencil stealing ass!
Thank you that was interesting but totally clear as mud
Interesting , a sort of Zone 2 to Zone 2, or a joining of two main lines - a HS2 to HS1 via Peckham and Holborn seems an ideal plan
Can't find the right place to reply, but thanks for the explanation about Chalk Farm / Primrose Hill. Always happy to learn !
Okay, so *chalk* another one up for Jago Hazzard!
Perhaps there was no technical plan to use the deep level air-raid shelters as the basis for a new Tube line, but some clever bloke in the Railways (County of London) Planning Committee thought that if at some point after the war someone wanted to plan such a line, there would be worse things to find en route than said shelters.
We would never laugh at you, only your funny bits!
Tower Bridge Road was the site of the Bricklayers Arms goods terminal and (I think) the lines ran out past South Bermondsey - I think its a cycle track now. So presumably all of the line would have needed to be underground to not interfere with the goods traffic? (there is a map of the lines on wikipedia )
Bricklayers Arms became a goods depot after the closure of the passenger station way back in 1852 and was located on Page's Walk just off the Old Kent Road.
Jago have you considered a video on the Necropolis line, it is very unusual but quite interesting that most of the passengers were dead.
That line's been done to death already! 😊
@@LesD9 Boomboom
Thanks, that was very interesting.🚆
Fascinating yet again. My mind wanders to how London might have develloped had all these lines been built. I reckon it would have made many journeys easier and boosted growth on the south shore...or is it bank ? (Not a native English speaker, sorry hahaha)
I’m already excited for the tertiary episode :D
2:17 does that glass door lead straight to a brick wall? 🤔
Isn't there a shelter near Russell Square? That would have been more or less on the route?
There is I believe, but not one of the official Underground deep level shelters.
@@JagoHazzard the shelter I was thinking of was the "Eisenhower Centre" the main (west) entrance is Goodge St, the east entrance is on Chenies St between Tottenham court road and Gower Street..
I don’t think the historians are laughing at you. They are possibly laughing with you...or more likely, thinking “Where did he get his intel?” 😜
I think the Northern Relief Line or whatever it was supposed to be called just ran out of impetus and, more importantly, funding, thus it got dropped fairly quickly in favour of other schemes which solved other problems at a fraction of the cost, like converting the LNER branches in the east to Central Line operations. 🤷🏻♂️
Great video mate, just another 10B to go! 👍
There may not be a shelter at Chalk Farm but there's one up the road at Belsize Park. I think you may have covered it before.
from mem, its up by Eton rd, there is a shelter at Chalk Farm Stn, behind it,some of it used to be in use as a sshh Secret muti storey by the police, for seized high performance cars bought by crime, my dad said the main bomb shelter was under Gilbys Gin ( main Camden lock building ) it was at and under Canal level where the second tow path bridge is against the building
Also Chancery Lane has a lift shaft which is long closed. Suppose this could of also been used. Great video as usual however!
I do wonder what form of traction these proposed lines were supposed to use. Steam seems out of the question for all the tunnels, diesel has similar problems. The lines in South London were already using third-rail, so maybe that would be extended northwards? Maybe they planned to use 1500V DC overhead wires, as was originally used on Liverpool Street-Shenfield? I expect a 750V third-rail/1500V overhead dual-voltage train was probably technologically feasible at the time. 25KV AC became the "standard", but it took until the 1970s for a 750V/25KV dual-voltage train to appear. Maybe had these plans gone ahead, it would have prevented the switch to 25KV AC?
Dual voltage AC/DC trains had been operating on the New Haven railroad since 1907 ( 750 V DC / 11 /later 12,5/ kV AC). No problem!
At the conclusion of WW2, it was intended that the deep level shelters were to be linked up to form the express Northern line.
Is there actually a written reference to this as Jago says, it is disputed by other writers and i have not got the Shelter of The Tubes book to hand
@@highpath4776 Yeah, I've heard it from many sources, including some official London Transport historians.
Also, if you look at where the shelters are located, both North And South of the river. Their alignment runs close too, if not parallels the Northern Line.
Isn’t that shop by Chalk Farm from the Primrose Hill overground station?
great stuff !
How many of the Lines That Never Were go places that don't get rail service today? One can dream of all of them getting built, but that would mostly be insane levels of redundancy. What unbuilt lines would have actually made great additions to the network today?
Next we investigate the Corgi line, the line that doesnt run from buckingham palace to Heathrow airport....
It's hard to tell which from the map, but one of Lines 2 or 4 seem to go through the Eisenhower Centre at Goodge St, which would make another connection for you.
Good evening 🤣
Underground Station vs Station Underground. Thx, for clearing that up.
BTW - do you have sufficient security clearance, to talk about Route 9?
That’s on the way, but it’s a pretty major project - a line from Raynes Park to Clapton.
Do you mean the dissused Primrose Hill Mainline Station, as the start point? (its close to chlalk farm on the underground, but the station you had on the video was definately primrose hill)
The problem with the city and South London line tunnel would be its size. Surely it would be far too narrow for a full sized train?
I can't lie Jago, you opening this video "Good evening" really (genuinely) threw me!
Interesting though.
_
Mark A. G. Davidson=
It was rather late evening when I watched it shortly after he posted it. :-)
@@lwilton So you live in America?
@@ThatCoalSoul Yep.
Lunchtime here so did sound odd.
Once again, splendid stuff! Is the tunnel to king William street used for anything these days?
I believe it’s partly being incorporated into Crossrail.
@@JagoHazzard Sorry to disagree, but that seems highly unlikely? It runs north-south, parallel to the Northern Line, eventually joining that route round Borough, as it was the original C&SL route. Also the dimensions are substandard even for modern tube stock, let alone full size Crossrail trains.
@@iankemp1131 My understanding is that it’s to do with ventilation and access rather than actually running trains.
@@JagoHazzard Interesting. That would make more sense, although even then the above-ground access is very limited (if it still exists at all). The City is so packed that even finding a hole for a new vertical ventilation shaft might be a challenge!
The layout of the tunnels here is rather odd. Instead of being side by side, they in fact, sit on top of one another - this was because the tunnels had to follow the route of the road above, and not extend under any buildings. There is also, I helieve, quite a sharp curve on leaving the station. No surprises, then, that the line had a short life, and was replaced ASAP.
It is unfortunate they never considered relocating both Chalk Farm and Primrose Hill slightly eastwards just pass the Roundhouse to provide a better interchange.
Makes one wonder what route nine is or at least was.
The messier the map, the merrier.
I think there should be a report detailing each line in detail as well as the summary map
A Station at Chalk Farm, well unless the Whitewicks visit, Jago, tell us a story about it.
It was Primrose Hill actually, so don't get excited !
@@brianbell4937 Oh no, get very extricated, Jago is Correct, at the time of the report the remaining station at Chalk Farm (North London Line), indeed was so called Chalk Farm (I think on of the buildings shown might have been the LNWR Chalk Farm closed in 1915 on an electrification program, but the other remained and not called Primrose Hill until 1950, after the map and report were drawn and written.
@@highpath4776 thanks very much.
4:14 I am pretty sure it isnt just the historians who are laughing ^^
I am Dutch and I dont really care if there was, is, or ever would be an above ground undrgound line meandering through parts of London I probably never will visit. But your videos are very entertaining.
Few weeks ago i thought I might be watching a bit too many of these London videas as I was watching a Joolz guides video and I knew what he was talking about, where is is locater and probably which Underground line to take to get there.. Oops.
I only wish that The Dutch were more interested in their own history.
Mentally visualising that route, it’s all over the shop! I can see no efficiency in that line at all.
I think the idea was to Join the West Coast Services to one of the Southern Routes via the commercial centre of London , rather than Queens Road to Chalk Farm (which probably had a good surface level tram system)
Query: Chalk Farm main line station - Was that the same as Primrose Hill, or is there another Chalk Farm station I’m not aware of?
P.S. If you become a time traveller, you can laugh at historians (and archeologists). :D
Yes, Primrose Hill station was known as "Chalk Farm" between 1862 and 1950 (that is, at the time the plan was drawn up).
So whats in those Shelters now?
Part of Clapham South is used for growing vegetables ! - suggest you look up the relevant episode of London Transport Museum's Hidden London Hangouts on You Tube. In fact, why not watch them all as are all fascinating.
Route 2? Shirley you mean Line 1.4142, Jago. What what...
So, Chalk Farm station, as featured on the cover of the second, classic album by Madness, 'Absolutely' (whose inner sleeve features an LU roundel bearing the name 'Cairo East'), no longer exists as shown?
Shame.
@3:52, 😂 😂 😂
What an interesting observation. The shelters may well have been sites for stations. Much needed and would save a bob or two if the line was constructed. Just how station shaped or sized were the shelters? Even if only just protective holes in the ground, the land above would be in the right possession for conversion.
Per comments on line colouring and clarity, the map proves the point. It really does look like a plate of spaghetti. The public would never stand for it if it was let loose on them. Rush hour would be mayhem. If requirements existed, and forced advancements in technology, say arbitrarily by 1900, things, designs, typefaces even, would be so different as new styles made use of the advances and artists were inspired by it. Who knows the knock on effects? The printing of money in colour would be an issue and thus fraud and technology for fraud prevention would evolve sooner.
The shelters were very station-shaped below ground. I believe there is a project to open the one at Clapham South to the public.
@@JagoHazzard So repurposing the shelters after the war was probably on the cards.
Wouldn't the abandoned City and south London tunnels under the Thames have needed to be enlarged as they would have been too small to accommodate even the standard stock of the 1920s ?
What is now the oldest part of the Northern line from(I think)
from either Stockwell or Clapham Common to the City had their tunnels enlarged in the twenty's.
I'm sure someone out there in Jago land will know more than me so please enlighten us.
Demolition? Isn't it a historic building? Can't they move it? (Or past tense to all of those if it's already gone).
I believe there is a plan to dismantle and store the façade, though I don’t know to what end.
@@JagoHazzard That's something, at least. Maybe they could use it for a new station. Wonder if it could somehow be used at the London Transport Museum that I honestly know nothing about other than the name.