@pleappleappleap Yes, but they aren't in power any more, so they can blame the current guys, while also sitting on the sidelines talking about how costly it is. You know, like always.
Wow, thanks for that. I used to be a police officer based at Kings Cross Rd and Caledonian Rd first but then in the early 80’s I moved to Kentish Town (E division of old and re codified as EK) I was based at the sub division of Albany St so covered that area. I barely recognise it. It had been quite run down with a large Bangladeshi community and simmering tensions between the long established Somerstown community. The next street up from Grafton Place was Doric Way where there was a traffic garage serving central London and where we would refuel our cars and vans and the fleet workshops where the cars were repaired or serviced. I think that has long gone. I learned a lot from your video I didn’t know like Polygon Rd’s origins. Not far from St Pancras Church was the old Coroners Court situated near the Gasometers. I guess that has also long gone. Thanks again. That was a real visit down memory lane
Excellent video. I love the way you dealt with the future and all the planning and design issues but then still brought it back to a marvelous retinue of historic context. Bravo good sir.
Excellent video, both informative and constructive. The "6 minute" walk from Euston to St Pancras was mentioned more than once but for many it's more than 6 minutes or even impossible; and in foul weather when lugging a heavy suitcase it seems more like 6 hours. A weather-proof connection of one sort or another with either a moving walkway or light railway is absolutely necessary if anything is to be redeemed from this half-cocked design.
They should built the moving walkway type escalators that you can find in the airports to connect between Euston, St.Pancras and Kings Cross. It would be better to combine 3 of them together, and rename it to "London Euston Road".
I heard an interview months ago with Rob Holden chief executive of HS1 on the Today Programme (Radio 4) as the decision to scrap the 2nd leg of HS2 was being made. He actually had put his name forward for HS2 way back but was told by ‘a senior civil servant’ he didn’t have the right experience for the post! Videos like this are invaluable.
I at least hope, that they will construct tunnel provisions for a direct HS1 HS2 link. So in the case the plans are ever picked up again it can be constructed without disruption to HS2 or a complete rebuild to the tunnel between Old Oak Commons and Euston. Keep the option open, provisions never hurt.
I think the reason why is because it costs £700m and they think that the demand for regional Eurostar won't be enough to justify the link. Whilst I think a lot of people outside of London would want to take the train to Europe instead of drive to a port or get on a flight (including myself), it would be too expensive for most people for a regional Eurostar ticket. If I wanted to go to Paris, Brussels or Amsterdam, I have to fly, because taking a train down to London and another Eurostar is too expensive. So the regional Eurostar and hs1-hs2 link could exist if our trains were actually affordable
@@x_zschannel The problem is that Birmingham and Manchester are both so much smaller than London. If they were bigger, there would be enough demand for a link. I imagine they'd probably put a couple of through platforms next to the XR2 station (if/when it gets built) so the trains could serve double duty as domestic services to (nearly) Euston. As it stands I don't think many people from the north will want to travel by train to the continent if it means changing in London. A few business travellers from companies that want to flex their green credentials, but for leisure, without the link flying is going to be the most convenient option by far.
@@x_zschannel Even without connections to the continent, it's still a high-speed link to the South East of England that bypasses Central London, plus connections to commuter towns in Essex and the wider East via interchange at Stratford. Building it would relieve the pressure on TfL caused by travellers having to move between disparate London terminals to get between the South East and the rest of the UK by train, and generally make Kent, East Sussex and Essex a lot more connected with the rest of the country. £700m is very justifiable when you consider those kinds of benefits
Thanks for the memories. I was there as a student in 1969-72. I remember the Harrier rising up from the coal yard, as part of the Daily Mail race to New York.
I first travelled from St Pancras to Sheffield in 1986 when it was a quiet and horribly dirty London terminal station. How times have changed! So many stations are now architectual marsterpieces!
Euson Station, Automation, Hypnotising earwigs with a billiard cue, Noel Coward, Frankie Howerd, Half a pound of treacle and the same to you! (Marty Feldman, "The B Side")
Great analysis. Purely from a UX perspective, you can imagine a series of escalators at Euston station leading up to an elevated crossing, with clear signage that could be seen from anywhere in the station. Could make an otherwise annoying commute fairly straightforward and inviting.
The fundamental problem was thinking about a "terminus" in the first place instead of an integrated system eventually linking Scotland with the continent. Trains could have been brought into to Stratford International where transfers could be made to St Pancras, or trains split. The other thing that politicians don't appreciate is that it will never be cheaper.
The problem is not HS2, it is (and always has been) HS1. Choosing St Pancras as the terminus plus the route via Stratford was ridiculous. I was at the meeting in Manchester where it was announced and I got massive criticism there for questioning the route. The Chairman of the Company, Ove Arup, (now Arup) was there alongside many MPs and dignatories. He gave a speech outlining the route and how his Company was involved. When he had finished and was taking questions from the audience, I asked him why a route from London to the South East (Folkestone) should start out in a northerly direction, turn due east, then south east alongside the c2c (LTS) line and, finally, head in the direction it should have taken from the off. Knowing the answer, I asked where Arup was based (Stratford) and I maintained that this was the sole reason for St Pancras to be chosen with a so-called "International" station to be built in Stratford along with a brand new shopping centre. I asked what interest Arup had in any of these initiatives and was physically jeered and booed by the audience. So we got St Pancras International, an "international" station at Stratford that has never seen a chunnel train stop there in normal service; an "international" station at Ebbsfleet (same as Stratford) and a now closed Ashford International. Arup did very well out of all this and also cashed in on the Olympic Village, Crossrail and HS2 itself among many other new ventures in the Startford area. That is why almost every London transport "improvement" appears to have "Stratford" somewhere in its vocabulary. Tying in an HS2 kink with St Pancras was always going to be next to impossible for many reasons and that's why it never happened.
@@azuma892 Firstly Stratford is not in central London, so it would be much the same as ending it at Old Oak Common. Secondly, HS2 is approaching from a westerly direction and Stratford is in East London.
@@mbatatok-tokngogo2711 Why not do Old Oak Common Euston and Stratford whilst they are building Euston. So have HS2 terminate in Old Oak Common but also run to Stratford in the East, whilst Crossrail 2 and HS2 rebuild Euston and give it a facelift. So it serves London West: Old Oak Common London East: Stratford International to alleviate pressure on the Elizabeth Line coming from the West from places like Heathrow Airport. Stratford International is very close to Stratford on the Elizabeth Line
What proof do you have of Arup owning land in Stratford/Olympic Park or having HQ there. I do understand your point wouldn't a London to Kent train be cheaper if you ran it through Lewisham or somewhere SE London let's say.
An informative and entertaining video indeed. My vote is for a cut and cover tunnel with travelators for the 600m between Euston and St Pancras. The most logical route is under Phoenix Road and Brill Place. Perhaps the existing drain/sewer under Phoenix Road that was mentioned could by rebuilt to one side of the travelator tunnel? Construction costs should be moderate given the relatively short length, low depth and lesser costs associated with cut and cover construction down existing roads. The alternative of an elevated monorail would be much more intrusive to local residents and therefore likely attract considerable opposition. Ideally a travellator tunnel should also provide a convenient connection between St Pancras and Kings Cross stations.
I do believe that HS2 is vital for the UK and for the North of England to have a high speed railway line that would make journey times lot quicker than normal train services that takes hours. And would cut down on delays and to help relieve the congestion when travelling on trains.
Average time from Paris to London on Eurostar is about 2 1/2 hours. A direct train to Birmingham with a short stop in central London would be only about an hour more. Well within the travel time envelope that attracts custom on the continent.
They would be better served by increased track capacity where the bottle necks exist and re-establishing previously closed lines to create better paths across the country
@@jakewynn Maybe at the moment. Have you heard of "the future" - and the need to do something to cut carbon emissions in it? By getting people out of their cars and lorries off the roads for a start.
Enjoyed the video. Re HS1-HS2 link: London based decision makers had a good excuse "not to" when the 'low cost' airlines arrived. There would not be enough demand from "the north" full stop. The interests of Camden council were seen as more important than providing the convenience of through travel to Europe from the rest of GB, and as they are effectively firewalled in London, the benefits of both new railways will largely accrue to South East England. Huge numbers in the north of England voted for Brexit which again played into the hands of those whose only ambition for HS2 is for a belated WCML relief, using UK gauge trains.
I hate that I can get to the Czech Republic faster than I can get to Scotland, from London, all because we're so scared of trains these days. "Oh no! Don't take the cars away! They're so freeing, and fast!" - a common complaint of those perpetually stuck in traffic, who think the best solution to _end_ traffic is to bulldoze parks, pavements, and houses for another lane of cars.
In Salisbury there is a nice mural of a row of traditional shops and homes - which were demolished to make way for half a ring-road - and the painting now exists under a bridge on that half-a-ring-road where those houses once sat. What's worse, is that it is often those of a confused, supposedly 'traditionalist' bent, whether apathetic, Tories, or Reform, who love seeing things destroyed for a little bit more road.
Yes, I don't know why people seem to think that a railway need's to be profitable, the profit comes from increased efficiency and connecting more regions. We don't expect that roads make money, in fact, roads cost us billions of pounds each year. Also, the government hates subsidising railways, but are very happy to subsidise air and road travel, it's really sad. edit: you can't get to Czechia faster than Scotland, by train it's ~4 hours to Scotland and ~16 hours to Czechia. And flying is ~1.25 hours to Scotland and ~2 hours to Czechia
Presumably you have not seen the trashing of West London for HS2, the trashing of Kings Cross for HS1, the trashing of Tottenham Court Road station environs for "Crossrail" or indeed the trashing of large sections of Victoria just to enlarge the Underground station (a job which took longer than WW2 to complete). Your ignorance of reality obsesses you with cars to the extent that you are blinded to the fact that road-building occurs with a focus on commercial and goods traffic to and from locations inside and outside of urban areas where building railways to each front door would require even bigger tracts of land being trashed than are for the roads because lorries have tighter turning circles than trains. Does it not occur to you that the reason we need road traffic to serve the people of London is because there is no provision on the railways being built for goods or freight trains and that one could just as easily say that "a common complaint of those perpetually stuck in overcrowded trains who think the best solution to end backing up is to bulldoze parks, pavements, and houses for another line of railways." Let's face it, the Jubilee Line was built to relieve the Central Line then the Elizabeth Line was built to relieve both. Thanks to the anti-car attitudes in London, London roads are now congested by black cabs, Ubers and a plague of home delivery and multi-drop vans, none of which carry goods or passengers on trips which could be conveyed by rail because there are no rails and the nearby rails of those who live or work near them cannot be used for goods because they were built for overwhelming numbers of passengers. The problem with rail building is that those who propose it have this obsession with those who drive and "encouraging" them to use the railways yet at the same time justify themselves by saying that this line or that line is overcrowded and need relief without seeing their own self-conflation.
They should have started building hs2 in northern England and worked their way down. Even if it was never completed the line could be reused to connect Birmingham with Sheffield, Manchester and Newcastle. Possibly even Scotland
Why don't people like your self realise in major transport construction they do not start building fro one end only, HS2 has been constructed the whole length of the line other wise it would not of been built at all
@@rhysrail I know they don't build from one end but build the whole track alighnment in sections at the same time, mate I live in Birmingham and have been watching them build it and it has funding mate as you can see the HS2 construction work going on all the way from Birmingham Curzon Street South to London Euston and North as far as Handsacre in North Staffordshire
@@rogerphelps9939 It is being constructed all the way from Birmingham Curzon Street to London OOC and London Euston and from Birmingham North to Handsacre in North Staffordshire, I think you need to take a better look at HS2
Fantastic effort, thank you. FYI there is an easily web accessible image of the Old Church and the River Fleet showing how close the two actually were.
Indeed. Plus when you consider what "might have been" regarding the Great Central Railway into St Pancras and closed by Beeching it is so sad that we once had the railway that would have been cheaply and easily upgraded to form HS2, given how straight it was and thus how it was ahead of its time in accommodating high speed rail.
If, as has happened, the entire HS1/HS2 scheme was not planned and committed to from the outset (including all interchanges and the east/west northern connectivity) it is little wonder that it has turned inexorably into a shitshow! Piecemeal just doesn't cut it on next generation schemes! There are only two options: 1. Complete the entire original scheme, including northern powerhouse AND HS1/HS2 direct connection, or if this is not possible, and given the fiscal poverty of Britain, 2. CANCEL all remaining HS2 and spend the money on a serious upgrading of northern rail links to match the progress made south of Watford! Then electrify Midland Mainline all the way to Leeds via both Nottingham and Derby, plus the Sheffield-Manchester link. Stop nattering about it in Parliament. Just do it! And for heaven's sake stop being so Londoncentric about everything!! There IS intelligent life outside the Home Counties: all we seem to hear about projects is Londonlondonlondonlondon!
As a Northerner…who cares. We can work out the Tube, to get between stations in London. We just want a modern train network, a HS2, to replace the antiquated system we’ve got in the North. Spend the money there, not fiddling with hugely expensive “last mile” in London… hugely better value (distance) for money
This really is an interesting topic, but for non-Londoners, it would be great to do a little explaining when showing maps of existing/planned lines and not just pan over the map few seconds and be done with it 😊
*OLD OAK COMMON is for transfers to* east and west routes, including Stratford and Heathrow. (Lizzy Line) *EUSTON is for transfers to* north and south routes (Northern Line.) _That was they original plan._
What gets my goat is that everything/everybody has to go through London, and there are no through routes through London worthy of the name. You always end up standing next to the service disruption display, walking the full length of a terminus station three times (with luggage) to find a viable connection to your next terminus station. The whole "Cross Country" rail concept has been irreparably broken.
It was quite surprising to me that Euston and St. Pancras are that close to each other, but a link of sorts might be advantageous, say, a transparent-walled raised 'trottoir roulant', as the French say, to reflect the historic links with that country, along the alignment of that people mover, but a more simply constructed solution. Thank you for that historical background, BTW.
There's 3 different major stations within a walking distance to each other and 2 of them share a tube station. how they fail to connect HS2 to the Eurostar I'll never know
@@50upss Yet the case for the HS1-HS2 link needed, in order to justify the expense, over a train load of passengers each hour (out of 6 trainloads - 3 per direction. ie about 1 in 4 or 5 passengers using the link) using it get off at Stratford International and walk a slightly shorter distance to the main Stratford station to get to destinations in East London and the Docklands slower than if they took the Elizabeth line from Old Oak Common. Obviously the straw clutching modelling had no one walk between Euston and St Pancras despite it being a similar distance. There's little demand for HS1-HS2 trains and only a handful of destinations could be served both directly and quasi-frequently (so most North-Continent passengers would have to change despite the through trains). HS2 passengers would be far better served by a moving walkway that linked all the Euston destinations with all the KXSP destinations - providing them with easy access to the more useful destinations out of St Pancras like Croydon and Cockfosters as well as the cooler-sounding ones like Paris and Lille.
There were plans to link HS2 and HS1 just north of St. Pancras International and King’s Cross but that has been cancelled due to high costs. I understand that London Euston is going through a massive reconstruction and to be rebuilt because of HS2. And with more extra platforms to be built.
The Elizabeth Line is at full capacity coming out of London between 16:00 and 19:00. Trying to get to Reading is a nightmare because folks that work in the city fill the trains completely to Hayes. I imagine the situation in the morning rush hours would be the same.
It definitely needs something but HS1/Eurostar and HS2 should run into the same station with no need for having 2 stations, as well as skirting trains directly from Birmingham (and hopefully Manchester) to go directly to Paris and Brussels. This is just British incompetence at its greatest. In the video it's mentioned that the British Library is in the way, well move it, it doesn't need to be in that location anyway. I know this wouldn't be able to be done overnight but it's another case of thinking small and fudging the solution.
I like the monorail option to connect the stations, I would ride on it just for the sake of it! Shame there isn't anything left of the Polygon, such a historic and groundbreaking building, the first housing estate in an area known for its housing estates. R.I.P. Joan Merrett 🌹
I used to frequent that bar in Euston too, back in the 1990's. I once lent Peter Hain my phone battery in 1997 in the run-up to General Election. He had the same model of phone I had (a Nortel One2One), and I happened to be both a Labour Party supporter and enough of a wonk to know who he was. Ah, the days before battery banks He bought me a drink to cover the outrageous costs per minutes of my calling plan. Not on expenses he assured me.
Thanks for this explanation - and for the very interesting walk through Somers Town, which shows, I think, what might be the consequence if even only 5% of a 400metre HS2 train (and there might end up being 18 of them every hour) decided to walk on this route between Euston and St Pancras. There is one option for HS2 at the London end whch you don't list, and which I'm not even sure the official planners have considered, which is to use the line to kick off a proper review and plan for all the rail lines which terminate around the edge of central London. I have to say the idea of a mega-station at KXSP is scary: why do planners have the idea that people love the airport experience? Over much of mainland Europe rail termini arebeing discarded in favour of through stations, but one big station in London would be too large and complex, so how about a triangle of stations - maybe City, West End and Southbank? - each through line would stop at two of these, giving one-change connections to all the other through lines (real competition for the M25). HS2, approaching from the west, would stop at OOC, West End and City, and if it went on to or via Stratford it could still connect easily with HS1, as well as with the SE expresses to east Kent. Expensive - yes; but so it seems is Euston, which will not be properly finished until Crossrail 2 is built. And with four London stops, at places with good local connections and where people want to go anyway, the load will be spread. Look forward to your next video
I also couldn’t have imagined the huge congestion transferring from the mega station down to the Underground! It was considered very originally but dismissed quickly
Personally, i feel HS2 should have linked up to HS1 at Stratford International (ill call Stratford HS). You could then terminate the trains in Stratford HS and Old Oak common, with possible extensions to Ebbsfleet etc. This has two huge benefits. Firstly - Stratford HS now has a purpose. You end up with a major High speed hub in the East and West of the city, both linked to the Elizabeth line. Euston may be better connected, but also it must have been more expensive to redevelop. Secondly - You can then connect the Heathrow and Stansted Express's directly to this line. Making a London Airport express serving Heathrow, Old Oak Common, Stratford, then Stansted via Harlow, Bishop Stortford, etc.
Whilst I do agree with this it would still need a Central London terminus as well. I'm just thinking of the times and places I've lived in London, in Hammersmith and Crouch End and ending up at Old Oak Common or Stratford would have been a total nightmare, just as it was getting to Paddington to get the GWR so this isn't really a solution, it's in addition to I think. I do agree though that HS2 should definitely link to HS1.
...and what's more, much of the engineering/maintenance infrastructure at Temple Mills could have been expanded and used to service and store both fleets.
@@peterwilliamallen1063 and why do they want to get off at Euston? What's in Euston that appeals to them so greatly? They more than likely want an onward connection, which both Old Oak and Stratford provide.
@@Garfie489 No when we get off at Euston we have access to Bus routes and the Tube, there is no reson for ust to go to Stratford, the only Stratford we are likely to go to is where the Bard used to live on the River Avon, nothing in Euston. it how things have been done for over 100 years, but what is at Stratford East London that appels to Midlanders and Northerners nothing.
with some shenanigans around primerose hill junction, you could possibly connect HS2 to HS1, HS1 is already connected to the north london line, dig up old primerose hill station platform, to create an drop, enter the tunnel of the up empty carrage line (abandoned) and head north an littleway, i could connect to the HS2 tunnel
I usually just walk between EUS and STP via Euston Road which is one of London’s worst maintained footpath. The surface is all over the place. The big bonus of the route is a pint in The Rocket!
Would have been a change at both Interchange and Lille if using an avoid-Euston/St Pancras HS1-HS2 link (which, would you given that Euston-St Pancras is only one change?). Every train was Manchester/Leeds - Paris (stopping everywhere and so no quicker than changing in London, and less frequent) - any serving of central Birmingham would deny that train going further north, which was a political no no.
Absolutely no way would the Elizabeth line have been routed via Kings Cross. If it had it would not have relieved the Central line which was a key purpose. The answer for Kings Cross and connecting it with Euston was then and still is, Crossrail 2. Also, it’s the line capacity that is by *far* the biggest issue for running HS2 trains onto the Elizabeth line and should have been mentioned first. Crossrail was built for a 30tph service and all the paths that aren’t currently used will be needed in future for Elizabeth line increased service.
The Victorians built three London stations in close proximity within 1000 metres, Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross. There is no land in the area to build an extended station at Euston for HS2 without demolishing buildings. Old Oak common is on the Paddington line but very near the Euston line. A passenger tunnel with flat escalators is proposed between Euston and Kings Cross stations.
The reason for all the separate London stations so close together was that they were all built by different railway companies and then, as now, you had to have an Act of Parliament to build a railway, e.g. High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Act 2017. It really precludes any logical transport planning.
You couldn't make it up! The short-sightedness and London-centricity of this country (or at least its governments) never ceases to stagger me. Thanks for your well researched video - but there were other things to consider. For a start, that 600m gap is not only between HS1 and HS2, it a 600m gap on the route between the north of England and the South of France and beyond in terms of high-speed rail. Thought of like that, it becomes even more ridiculous. You would have done well to compare the proposed solutions with the kind of infrastructure being built on the continent - that would have shown up how utterly inadequate the compromise plans really are. Secondly, there is the issue of economies of scale and wider connectivity to consider. HS2 being completely separate means there is no possibility of using the same rolling stock, maintenance facilities, bulk future orders etc - everything needs to be duplicated, adding to the cost. And even allowing for the Home Office's reluctance to make life easy for people travelling to/from the continent, how about the synergies between the north and south of London? You would effectively end up with Crossrail 3 by linking the two. But people can't see beyond London (in the same way that Crossrail 1 should have been about East Anglia to Bristol/South Wales, not just a London shuttle; it happens elsewhere...). The best solution is your last one - that was proposed by a consortium some years back - but by now it should be well underway. What's more, through stations don't need to be as big as termini because dwell times are much shorter. And as for 'no demand', there was very little demand for rail travel from London to the continent by way of the old boat trains - until Eurostar opened. The demand is there, just as it is for similar journeys on the continent - it just can't be seen.
The low demand is the cost aspect, not the want prospect. It's much cheaper to fly than to take at least two trains. If the trains were affordable there would certainly be enough demand, however it is just too expensive for regular business commuters and holiday makers as of now
Outside of the largest urban areas and south east rail travel is not run in any way to be a public service or create economic change. The idea of £160 to get to London from north of Birmingham before lunch is just not on because the capacity is limited they price people off the service. We don’t need a London link, we need better connections in the north to the north. Hs1 got built off course and all the work around London will get completed and a new Euston while the likes of Crewe look derelict.
@@x_zschannel That's something of a circular argument - grow demand and you can cut prices. There are also political decisions to be made - for example the level of access charges (on HS1) which are far higher than on the continent and which push fares up - and fares policy more generally. Trains tend to be a more pleasant experience than planes - and that's before we consider the sustainability aspect.
@@pauledwards2817 That is a matter of national outlook and economic priorities, not some kind of natural inevitability. I quite agree, an entirely different mindset is needed but maybe the wind is starting to move slightly in a better direction? You may not need a 'London link' - but you *do* need a better Europe Link. The simple fact is, in the bigger geo-economic scheme of things, the north of Britain is an even more remote and marginal area than the south of this island, and the only way to counter that is to tie it more closely to Europe's economic heartlands. Which is not to say better intra-regional transport is not needed: you need both, and the synergy they would create.
The cancellation of the interconnection between HS1 and HS2 is shame, it could have routed some domestic services through (Birmingham-Old Oak Common-Stratford International -Ashford International), that could offer some relieve to St Pancras (International) and Euston stations as well as to the lines/servicing feeding them. Reopening the Eurostar facilities at Ebbsfleet International or Ashford International could make it a better fit for transfer for trains to the continent. As an alternative direct trains from Birmingham to the continent could make a stop in Stratford International so you can relief St Pancras a bit and finally honour the International suffix of Stratford International. Paris did get an interconnection LGV between LGV Nord and (almost) all other Paris terminating LGV's.
There's no space on HS2 for that unless you divert trains away from the destination that ~70% of people want (Euston) - which would make the other trains busier, as well as less reliable due to the reverse branching.
@samuelmelton8353 You'd still have London stations, but they'd be through stations (like Thameslink). You'd get more London stations with less expensive central London land.
Personally what i would do if we were serious about high speed railways would be a dedicated underground line with a central underground station in the centre either with terminus platforms or 2 above ground stations outside the city so after they run through they could terminate there or just continue to run on to HS1 or HS2, this would open up the possibility of commuting from London to further away places maybe even in France if they better worked out the borders
I think some of the technological / infrastructure reasons you gave against integrating HS2 with other stations are not that important, as they assume things about HS2 which could have just been decided differently if they wanted to ensure the integrations were possible. The station capacity, and service pattern constraints, were surely the main reason. Being in the same place as the terminus of the existing trains which go to the same part of the country is also a major advantage when it comes to dealing with disruption.
I was against HS2 being built to high speed standards. But at this stage we may as well finish the project to it's original design specs starting at Euston and finishing in the north. To not start at Euston and not even get to at least Crewe is just madness.
I needed to know why they couldn’t dig a tunnel and do an extension for most of the mainline Trains so that they could extend the unused abandoned underground train stations. Why couldn’t they use the part D78 Stock train doors on the sides and also restructure the front face of the A60 and A62 stock which will include the class 507, class 508, class 313, class 314 and class 315 remix and make them all together and also redesign all of them into an overhead wire line trains and also make most of them into Five carriages per units and also having three Disabled Toilets on those Five cars per units A60 and A62 stock trains and also convert the A60 and A62 stock trains into a Gardner 6LXCT, Leyland 510, Gardner 6LXC, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner LG1200 and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engines and also put the Loud 7 Speed Voith Gearboxes even Loud 10 Speed Leyland Hydra cyclic Gearboxes in the A60 and A62 stock, class 507, class 508, class 313, class 314, and class 315 and also modernise the A60 and A62 stock and make it into 11 carriages per unit so it could have fewer doors, more tables, computers and mobile phone chargers? A Stock Train and 8 Disabled Toilets on those A stock trains. why couldn’t we refurbish and modernise the waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel and make it even much more Larger and extend it to the bank station, making it into a Triple-Track Railway Line so those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden to convert the waterloo and city line Triple-Track Railway tunnel into a High-Speed Railway lines? The Third Euro tunnel Triple-Track Railway line to make it 11 times better for passengers so they could go from A to B. Then put the modernised 11 carriages per unit A Stock and put them on a bigger modernised Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel so it could go to bank station to those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. The modernised refurbished 11 carriages per unit A stock could be a High Speed The Third Triple-Track Euro Tunnel Train So it is promising and 47 times a lot more possible to do this kind of project if that will be OK for London Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. oh by the way, could they also tunnel the Triple-Track Railway Line so it will stop from Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex so that the Passengers will go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland and Sweden and also extend the Triple-Track Railway Line from the Bank to Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex Stations so that more people from there could go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden more Easily. Why couldn't they extend the Piccadilly Line and also build brand-new underground train stations so it could go even further right up to Clapton, Wood Street can they also make another brand new underground train station in Chingford and could they extend the Piccadilly Line and the DLR right up to Chingford? All of the classes 150, 155, 154, 117, 114, 105, and 106, will be replaced by all of the Gardner 6LXCT, Leyland 510, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXC, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner LG1200 and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Five carriages three disabled toilets are air conditioning trains including Highams Park for extended roots which is the Piccadilly line and the DLR trains. Could you also convert all of the 1973 stock trains into an air-conditioned maximum speed 78 km/hours (48 MPH) re-refurbished and make it into a 8 cars per unit if that will be alright, and also extend all of the Piccadilly train stations to make more space for all of the extended 8 car per unit 1973 stock air condition trains and can you also build another Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive Companies and can they order Every 87 Octagon and Every 48 Hexagon shape LNER diagram unique small no.13 and unique small no.11 Boilers from those Countries such as Greece, Italy, Poland, and Sweden, can they make Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive speeds by up to 147MPH so you can try and test it on the Original Mainline so it will be much more safer for the Passengers to enjoy the 147MPH speed Limit only for HS2 and Channel Tunnel mainline services, if they needed 16 Carriages Per units, can they use those class 55’s, class 44’s, class 40’s and class 43HST Diesel Locomotive’s right at the Back of those 18 Carriages Per Units so they can take over at the Back to let those Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s have a rest for those interesting Journeys Please!!!!!!!!!!, oh can you make all of those 18 Tonne Boxes of Coal for all of those 147MPH Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s so the Companies will Understand us PASSENGER’S!!!!!! So please make sure that the Builders can do as they are told!!!!!!!!!! And PLEASE do something about these very very important Professional ideas Please? Prime Minister of England, Prime Minister of Australia, Prime Minister of Sweden, Prime Minister of Germany, Prime Minister of Italy, Prime Minister of Poland and that Includes the Mayor of London.
And interestingly they said they are funding the tunnels from OOC but made no mention of funding the new station at Euston or refurbishing the existing Euston. Thats probably because they are still looking for private investment but if nobody is interested they will have to find more money. That looks like being sometime in the future so we are likely to end up with the tunnels but no station for some time.
@@TrevorWilliams-fq8mgbasically, they’re unlikely to get much of win from the private sector but what they might get is still be worth exploring. Trouble is, no serious private sector player would spend the time and money looking at it if there was a question over whether the tunnels were even getting built there in the first place. This decision at least allows those conversations to actually happen.
You make a fair point. Another thing that crossed my mind is what money would have been wasted if they had cancelled the tunnels. There's the money already spent on preparing the site which must be considerable as a lot of foundation work has already taken place. And they must have paid for the tunnel boring machines which were on about a 2 year delivery period. They cost about 20 million each. Still, wasting money has been a common theme for HS2. Within 3 days of Sunak cancelling the northern leg a year ago they placed a 300 million order for ground investigation work to that section.
I live in Kent. Eurostar does now NOT stop in either Ebbsfleet or Ashford. We are also getting a 'Lower Thames Crossing ' ....only for roads. Why not adding a rail tunnel. We have Eurostar/HS1. sharing the same line which could link to link to HS2 and.......an extended Eurostar service to the Midlands and the North, gosh.......even to Scotland. Now would that be something
A visitor from another planet wouldn’t believe that railways were invented in the UK, such has been the lack of joined-up thinking in successive governments
It is quite incredible, that a country that once ruled the world with their civil engineering and industrial abilities, has fallen so low. I am British and live in France. They get their stuff together, on time and on budget. They also sort out all the issues in advance. Whereas Britain has lost it. Probably due to arrogance, stoicism and corruption. Sad really!
when it opens, it would be cool if heathrow ex could start at terminal 5, mid-turnaround at old oak common and continue to birmingham and whatever. not going to happen, but ot would give heathrow express a purpose. oh, and i dint think the 387s are suited for that route, so maybe new rolling stock like long-distance desiros or something
I should add, in connection with the North London Line connector, that the bridges between Camden Stables and Camley Street have a derelict two-track span to the north. Given th HS1 portal sends trains to the south, it would seem rational to shift the Overground into this space, with a rebuilt Camden Road station. That's sub-optimal, as trains would slow for surface running, though.
That was the plan. But to be the GC-gauge of HS1 and HS2, it had to be single track and freight trains weren't allowed to use it. Cost £3bn, allowed 3tph/direction (which it needed passengers walking between Stratford and Stratford International to fill up).
@@sihollett Think of it as space rather than track, in the original plan, but I still revert to my final comment, tunnelling below that line to connect to HS1 somewhere under Hackney would allow a straight-through run. Stratford International's pretty irrelevant, other than as the branch junction to the service base which can use reservoir reclaimed land, replacing the capacity to the north. You've then got three shuttle spurs, to the Elizabeth Stratford and OOC, Paddington and St Pancras, and possibly ThamesLink.
@@JelMain But you need track to run trains - thinking of it as space is silly! But not as silly as routing HS2 to HS1, given the lack of demand for through traffic between the High Speed lines (hence why, despite the limits of the line being single track, they needed people walking a quarter mile through a shopping centre to try and fill trains up). And then you propose having London to Europe/Kent travellers have to change at Stratford onto a shuttle. Trains almost emptying out with the passengers all going to the same train. Pointless! 🤦♂
A shame there's such a lack of forward-thinking with HSR in the UK. Would've been great seeing sleeper trains to the continent leaving from Edinburgh, or jumping on a TGV in the north to reach France. That said, Paris has a similar lack of direct connectivity with its Termini, and my experience has only really been the short walk between the Gare du Nord and Gare de l'Est. Can't say I've had to make a mad dash between St. Lazare and Montparnasse - though back in the day we did use to have to rush from Kings Cross to Waterloo to grab the Eurostar...
You know, considering that Tokyo station has just 6 tracks for each shinkansen line (and no, none of these tracks are through, the line to Osaka and the line to the north operate independently), I don't get why London's terminus NEEDS so many platforms. Just be like the Japanese and be more efficient at turning trains around. The idea of HS2 is to have less disruptions on this new trunk line, after all, so you should be free to optimize the time down to the seconds. Otherwise, if you are building HS2 thinking it's gonna get disrupted all the time, what are you even doing.
i always wonder why there wasn't a proposal for a station on the brownfield site north of kings cross st pancras. not necessarily as the main station but as one for a number of services onto Europe
Rather than worrying about how people from the North get to Europe (I'm not sure of the stats on the number of people who want a direct train from Manchester to Brussels) why not concentrate on getting every high speed train north of Birmingham onto HS2 and terminate somewhere in London (probably Euston) This would basically eliminate 125mph spacing on the WCML and run the pendolinos and whatever is used on the HS2 core at 140mph Trains from north of Birmingham already do limited stop (some from Glasgow for example don't stop south of Warrington...) Makes much more sense to funnel fast trains from the victorian lines than to find ways to provide provincial connections to Europe
Old Oak Common is ill designed in location and size, 22 platforms just to connect HS2 to the Elizabeth Line and Overground, while most passengers continue into Euston.
So the same engineers who designed both HS1 and HS2, incredibly forgetting the 600m bit between the two of them, rather than being berated for their error, are now earning massive fees to provide sticky-plaster options to span the gap?
You can't blame the HS1 designers. They designed HS1 to provide good connections to the north and west by bringing it out next to the North London Line that gives direct access to the WCML and GWML. This would also have provided easy connection to any future high speed lines to the north or west. It was entirely on HS2 that wasn't designed for any connection to HS1.
They should build a 4 track underground through station underneath Tottenham Court Road station. So that HS1 and HS2 could be connected already "downtown".
When the Channel Tunnel was announced we were promised through trains from Europe to Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh. It was obviously just bait and switch. The High Speed network that is coming about is ridiculously planned, and a complete waste of money.
When I first saw the initial plans and found that HS2 was not going to integrate with HS1 i knew the whole thing was a very very expensive white elephant.
You missed a big option. HS2 station Between Euston and StPanc... with front exit into StPanc and rear of the 400m trainsets exit into Euston. These would be subterranean larger bored holes and passage ways dug out. It would have the xRail2 (actually 3 if count thameslink 2000 as Crossrail 1)... the new whenever it is built station would be DEEP like at Bond or TCR etc. stacked below it would be HS2 with terminating tunnel bores and through tunnel bores (pair of Up and Down lines to join HS1 somewhere after tunnel portal at King's Cross with the most likely being into the station box at Stratford Intl. Instead of the ) loop up over and into Euston, it would be forward to East from OOC. Another option, the Grand Paris Option... A total rebuild of Euston with WCML at ground level and HS2 below ground with the new station frontage/entrance facing East, across street from St Pancreas. Occupying the land across the street, in corner of Brill Place and Midland Road. The old station to be totally razed to the ground and have it rebuilt with High Density DECENT sized and build housing Units. The existing site could easily have 12 to 15,000+ units just using a [ X ] block shape around and towers in centre (similar to Docklands but more a mini city. It would have schools, shops, minor injuries walk in, and GPs, etc. Surround the existing maximum footprint with 320m tall flats and fill in the centre with a X shaped building. These would all have excellent connections to the Existing TfL LUL stations. In urban areas we are going to either have to Build taller to the Maximum allowed (change to 500m) in London and as well, build entire NEW Cities a la the way China is building the new Eco City 100km from Beijing. There is ample room on the hills along centre of England and another in Kent/Essex.
why not close phoenix rd to car traffic, use half of its width to build a tasteful glass covered moving walkway? To mitigate locals the other half could be developed into a mini line park.
Why does HS2 need to terminate at Euston (or anywhere in Greater London)? Well that is the key question and I would like to know the answer too. Let's see the whole strategy and long term plan because it makes no sense at all to me. How does it fit in with the needs of UK citizens in the 21st century?
Because MML, WCML and even ECML are running above capacity. MML are having to slow down express services as the lanes are full so they don`t get enough time and distance to run an express through. HS2 was to solve that in 1 stroke so the fast stuff can run down its own lane - freeing up alot of extra capacity everywhere else, almost like building 3 new railways - that`s how much would be freed up.
I would be interested to know how many other journeys are not made because the rail service does not exist. It's likely many of these alternative projects can be built at much lower cost and give quicker benefits (cost, efficiency, environmental etc.). I am not convinced that most UK citizens see London as the place they most want to get to and from. Imagine if Britons could get to and from mainland Europe without even passing through the UK's most expensive property & land? 200 years ago we were railway pioneers.
Because London is where people want to go, and the railway follows demand. Otherwise a great deal of money could have been saved by making HS2 a circular railway with no stations somewhere up north where land was cheaper.
A potentially good use of data/ AI might be to transfer the layouts in old maps to a Google Maps 'template' - for modern viewers, these are second nature to read, and are designed to convey map information effectively. Older maps can be hard to make sense of at a glance. Imagine being able to slide between old street layouts in the same visual format.
I don’t like the idea of HS2 at St.Pancras - St.Pancras International is already too busy and not made to handle more than 1000 travelers an hour… Not enough space !
They really need to go all the way to Manchester. HS2 is useless to just go to Birmingham when the trains up north need improving. The west coast mainline is very congested
I'm amazed anyone is still speculating about stuff like this! The Chancellor has just announced tunnelling to Euston will go ahead. Nothing else is happening, because HS2 Ltd lost all control of Phase 1 costs!! Thus there was no mention of high speed rail whatsoever in the Budget, apart from Euston. As for Network Rail, Transpennine electrification was announced, again. East-West rail was announced, again. That's it. And given how dependent the post-covid railway is on taxpayer handouts, no one should be surprised or disappointed.
And that's about all that was ever going to be mentioned. Interestingly nothing was mentioned about government funding for the new station, only the tunnels.
5:44 to 6:10 why was the Camden Town link too difficult and expensive? Please could you elaborate. Putting cost to one side, is this still a possibility please?
HS2, as usual with British infrastructure projects. It gets built in isolation with no long-term thought for future builds. This could have been planned in the 1980s when the Channel Tunnel and HS1 were planned! Just as there's little thought for HS3, 4 or more.
The HS1 to HS2 link through Camden being cancelled due to the "disruption" it'd cause... Have they seen the amound of disruption HS2 is causing throughout the rest of the route? Or is this just another case of "Not on my doorstep" as it wouldn't be beneficial to London?
I can't agree with you on the distances. 600m booking office to booking office may be accurate. But I've always had to walk at least 300m up platforms at St Pancras and a similar distance at Euston HS2 would give 1.2km. Nasmyth's rule at 3km/h is more appropriate for estimating the walking speed of a loaded individual negotiating heavily trafficked footways with obstacles. So your 6 minute walk will actually be more like 24 minutes. Add in the time cost of unfamiliarity with long platform walks and I'm advising people to allow 30-45 minutes for transfer from HS1 to HS2.
Why would any planner out so much into one spot. Kings Cross was never going to be HS2. One incident, one bomb scare and transport to the north would all be halted.
That was why it was considered for a few months but then dismissed. I think the combined terminal idea first appeared at the time the Metropolitan Railway was being planned
An excellent overview but it made me laugh when you started talking about people getting the bus or walking between E and SP. High-speed travel needs a high-speed solution.
a direct through route from the north into France and the rest of Europe would bring lots of tourism traffic. I can't imagine many people doing it if they have to change at Euston though. Sure the walk is 7 minutes but this isn't accounting for the whole pullava of families getting their kids off the train and your luggage and getting them through the busy waiting area at euston, faffing around with tickets, stress of worrying about missing your train blablabla. Not having a connection from HS1 to HS2 seems short sighted in that regard.
2:15 Berlin Bank BREPS in the late 70s, early 80s. 14:08 Battleb ridge (named after an Anglo-Saxon battle) was where the (Imperial) gas-holders were\are (16:27 & 27:34)
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
Not safeguarding the land between Euston and St. Pancras was quite incredibly short-sighted.
But quite profitable no doubt.
@etherealbolweevil6268 Unfortunately, probably true, but leads to much greater expense in the long term.
@pleappleappleap
Yes, but they aren't in power any more, so they can blame the current guys, while also sitting on the sidelines talking about how costly it is. You know, like always.
@@DeathInTheSnowAt 02:08 "if there had been the political will 20 years ago..."
So about halfway through Blair's tenure then? (1997-2007)
Don't you mean St Pancras - Kings Cross, much closer than Euston-St Pancras?
This answered several questions/alternatives I'd considered for HS2 and explained why they were undesirable/impossible. Thank you.
Wow, thanks for that. I used to be a police officer based at Kings Cross Rd and Caledonian Rd first but then in the early 80’s I moved to Kentish Town (E division of old and re codified as EK)
I was based at the sub division of Albany St so covered that area. I barely recognise it. It had been quite run down with a large Bangladeshi community and simmering tensions between the long established Somerstown community.
The next street up from Grafton Place was Doric Way where there was a traffic garage serving central London and where we would refuel our cars and vans and the fleet workshops where the cars were repaired or serviced. I think that has long gone. I learned a lot from your video I didn’t know like Polygon Rd’s origins.
Not far from St Pancras Church was the old Coroners Court situated near the Gasometers.
I guess that has also long gone.
Thanks again. That was a real visit down memory lane
Excellent video. I love the way you dealt with the future and all the planning and design issues but then still brought it back to a marvelous retinue of historic context. Bravo good sir.
Excellent video, both informative and constructive.
The "6 minute" walk from Euston to St Pancras was mentioned more than once but for many it's more than 6 minutes or even impossible; and in foul weather when lugging a heavy suitcase it seems more like 6 hours. A weather-proof connection of one sort or another with either a moving walkway or light railway is absolutely necessary if anything is to be redeemed from this half-cocked design.
They should built the moving walkway type escalators that you can find in the airports to connect between Euston, St.Pancras and Kings Cross. It would be better to combine 3 of them together, and rename it to "London Euston Road".
Nice analysis. It just shows ho bedeviled we are by our lack of ling term planning or vision.
I heard an interview months ago with Rob Holden chief executive of HS1 on the Today Programme (Radio 4) as the decision to scrap the 2nd leg of HS2 was being made. He actually had put his name forward for HS2 way back but was told by ‘a senior civil servant’ he didn’t have the right experience for the post! Videos like this are invaluable.
Really enjoyable and informative video. Especially love the historical background and the maps! Great work.
Many thanks!
I at least hope, that they will construct tunnel provisions for a direct HS1 HS2 link.
So in the case the plans are ever picked up again it can be constructed without disruption to HS2 or a complete rebuild to the tunnel between Old Oak Commons and Euston.
Keep the option open, provisions never hurt.
There are 4 tunnel stubs coming out the eastern end of OOC, two for Euston and two more stubs for future use, potentially as an HS1 link.
I think the reason why is because it costs £700m and they think that the demand for regional Eurostar won't be enough to justify the link. Whilst I think a lot of people outside of London would want to take the train to Europe instead of drive to a port or get on a flight (including myself), it would be too expensive for most people for a regional Eurostar ticket. If I wanted to go to Paris, Brussels or Amsterdam, I have to fly, because taking a train down to London and another Eurostar is too expensive.
So the regional Eurostar and hs1-hs2 link could exist if our trains were actually affordable
But such things only benefit people in the Midlands and North. No benefit to London. Can't be allowed.
@@x_zschannel The problem is that Birmingham and Manchester are both so much smaller than London. If they were bigger, there would be enough demand for a link. I imagine they'd probably put a couple of through platforms next to the XR2 station (if/when it gets built) so the trains could serve double duty as domestic services to (nearly) Euston. As it stands I don't think many people from the north will want to travel by train to the continent if it means changing in London. A few business travellers from companies that want to flex their green credentials, but for leisure, without the link flying is going to be the most convenient option by far.
@@x_zschannel Even without connections to the continent, it's still a high-speed link to the South East of England that bypasses Central London, plus connections to commuter towns in Essex and the wider East via interchange at Stratford. Building it would relieve the pressure on TfL caused by travellers having to move between disparate London terminals to get between the South East and the rest of the UK by train, and generally make Kent, East Sussex and Essex a lot more connected with the rest of the country. £700m is very justifiable when you consider those kinds of benefits
Thanks for the memories. I was there as a student in 1969-72. I remember the Harrier rising up from the coal yard, as part of the Daily Mail race to New York.
I first travelled from St Pancras to Sheffield in 1986 when it was a quiet and horribly dirty London terminal station.
How times have changed! So many stations are now architectual marsterpieces!
Euston, we have a problem
Ha ha nice
Euson Station, Automation,
Hypnotising earwigs with a billiard cue,
Noel Coward, Frankie Howerd,
Half a pound of treacle and the same to you!
(Marty Feldman, "The B Side")
Great analysis. Purely from a UX perspective, you can imagine a series of escalators at Euston station leading up to an elevated crossing, with clear signage that could be seen from anywhere in the station. Could make an otherwise annoying commute fairly straightforward and inviting.
The fundamental problem was thinking about a "terminus" in the first place instead of an integrated system eventually linking Scotland with the continent. Trains could have been brought into to Stratford International where transfers could be made to St Pancras, or trains split. The other thing that politicians don't appreciate is that it will never be cheaper.
…but it can look cheaper this financial year.
Lovely video, thanks. I have visited the Old St Pancras Churchyard a couple of times, paying homage to Mary Wollstonecraft, nice place.
Wonderful atmosphere
As a Somers Town resident, I love this video (and would be rather bemused by a monorail flying past my flat!)
Always good, but this is an exceptional episode. Great review, especially of the enigmatic Somerstown
The problem is not HS2, it is (and always has been) HS1. Choosing St Pancras as the terminus plus the route via Stratford was ridiculous. I was at the meeting in Manchester where it was announced and I got massive criticism there for questioning the route. The Chairman of the Company, Ove Arup, (now Arup) was there alongside many MPs and dignatories. He gave a speech outlining the route and how his Company was involved. When he had finished and was taking questions from the audience, I asked him why a route from London to the South East (Folkestone) should start out in a northerly direction, turn due east, then south east alongside the c2c (LTS) line and, finally, head in the direction it should have taken from the off. Knowing the answer, I asked where Arup was based (Stratford) and I maintained that this was the sole reason for St Pancras to be chosen with a so-called "International" station to be built in Stratford along with a brand new shopping centre. I asked what interest Arup had in any of these initiatives and was physically jeered and booed by the audience. So we got St Pancras International, an "international" station at Stratford that has never seen a chunnel train stop there in normal service; an "international" station at Ebbsfleet (same as Stratford) and a now closed Ashford International. Arup did very well out of all this and also cashed in on the Olympic Village, Crossrail and HS2 itself among many other new ventures in the Startford area. That is why almost every London transport "improvement" appears to have "Stratford" somewhere in its vocabulary. Tying in an HS2 kink with St Pancras was always going to be next to impossible for many reasons and that's why it never happened.
That being said, what about having HS2 end at Stratford instead of Euston?
@@azuma892 Firstly Stratford is not in central London, so it would be much the same as ending it at Old Oak Common.
Secondly, HS2 is approaching from a westerly direction and Stratford is in East London.
@@mbatatok-tokngogo2711 that was a joke...
@@mbatatok-tokngogo2711 Why not do Old Oak Common Euston and Stratford whilst they are building Euston. So have HS2 terminate in Old Oak Common but also run to Stratford in the East, whilst Crossrail 2 and HS2 rebuild Euston and give it a facelift.
So it serves London West: Old Oak Common
London East: Stratford International to alleviate pressure on the Elizabeth Line coming from the West from places like Heathrow Airport. Stratford International is very close to Stratford on the Elizabeth Line
What proof do you have of Arup owning land in Stratford/Olympic Park or having HQ there.
I do understand your point wouldn't a London to Kent train be cheaper if you ran it through Lewisham or somewhere SE London let's say.
An informative and entertaining video indeed.
My vote is for a cut and cover tunnel with travelators for the 600m between Euston and St Pancras. The most logical route is under Phoenix Road and Brill Place. Perhaps the existing drain/sewer under Phoenix Road that was mentioned could by rebuilt to one side of the travelator tunnel? Construction costs should be moderate given the relatively short length, low depth and lesser costs associated with cut and cover construction down existing roads. The alternative of an elevated monorail would be much more intrusive to local residents and therefore likely attract considerable opposition.
Ideally a travellator tunnel should also provide a convenient connection between St Pancras and Kings Cross stations.
I do believe that HS2 is vital for the UK and for the North of England to have a high speed railway line that would make journey times lot quicker than normal train services that takes hours. And would cut down on delays and to help relieve the congestion when travelling on trains.
Average time from Paris to London on Eurostar is about 2 1/2 hours. A direct train to Birmingham with a short stop in central London would be only about an hour more. Well within the travel time envelope that attracts custom on the continent.
@@jdchsdjhj it will nearly half the journey time
They would be better served by increased track capacity where the bottle necks exist and re-establishing previously closed lines to create better paths across the country
@@ijstock the justification for hs2 is that apparently the wcml is full. If the TOCs could actually run reliable services it would be more than fine.
@@jakewynn Maybe at the moment. Have you heard of "the future" - and the need to do something to cut carbon emissions in it? By getting people out of their cars and lorries off the roads for a start.
Brilliant video, straight to the point and very informative. Thank you!
Enjoyed the video. Re HS1-HS2 link: London based decision makers had a good excuse "not to" when the 'low cost' airlines arrived. There would not be enough demand from "the north" full stop. The interests of Camden council were seen as more important than providing the convenience of through travel to Europe from the rest of GB, and as they are effectively firewalled in London, the benefits of both new railways will largely accrue to South East England. Huge numbers in the north of England voted for Brexit which again played into the hands of those whose only ambition for HS2 is for a belated WCML relief, using UK gauge trains.
I hate that I can get to the Czech Republic faster than I can get to Scotland, from London, all because we're so scared of trains these days.
"Oh no! Don't take the cars away! They're so freeing, and fast!" - a common complaint of those perpetually stuck in traffic, who think the best solution to _end_ traffic is to bulldoze parks, pavements, and houses for another lane of cars.
In Salisbury there is a nice mural of a row of traditional shops and homes - which were demolished to make way for half a ring-road - and the painting now exists under a bridge on that half-a-ring-road where those houses once sat.
What's worse, is that it is often those of a confused, supposedly 'traditionalist' bent, whether apathetic, Tories, or Reform, who love seeing things destroyed for a little bit more road.
I mean, it only takes 4h20m to get from London to Edinburgh by train. Good luck getting to Prague in that time.
Yes, I don't know why people seem to think that a railway need's to be profitable, the profit comes from increased efficiency and connecting more regions. We don't expect that roads make money, in fact, roads cost us billions of pounds each year.
Also, the government hates subsidising railways, but are very happy to subsidise air and road travel, it's really sad.
edit: you can't get to Czechia faster than Scotland, by train it's ~4 hours to Scotland and ~16 hours to Czechia. And flying is ~1.25 hours to Scotland and ~2 hours to Czechia
Presumably you have not seen the trashing of West London for HS2, the trashing of Kings Cross for HS1, the trashing of Tottenham Court Road station environs for "Crossrail" or indeed the trashing of large sections of Victoria just to enlarge the Underground station (a job which took longer than WW2 to complete). Your ignorance of reality obsesses you with cars to the extent that you are blinded to the fact that road-building occurs with a focus on commercial and goods traffic to and from locations inside and outside of urban areas where building railways to each front door would require even bigger tracts of land being trashed than are for the roads because lorries have tighter turning circles than trains. Does it not occur to you that the reason we need road traffic to serve the people of London is because there is no provision on the railways being built for goods or freight trains and that one could just as easily say that "a common complaint of those perpetually stuck in overcrowded trains who think the best solution to end backing up is to bulldoze parks, pavements, and houses for another line of railways." Let's face it, the Jubilee Line was built to relieve the Central Line then the Elizabeth Line was built to relieve both. Thanks to the anti-car attitudes in London, London roads are now congested by black cabs, Ubers and a plague of home delivery and multi-drop vans, none of which carry goods or passengers on trips which could be conveyed by rail because there are no rails and the nearby rails of those who live or work near them cannot be used for goods because they were built for overwhelming numbers of passengers. The problem with rail building is that those who propose it have this obsession with those who drive and "encouraging" them to use the railways yet at the same time justify themselves by saying that this line or that line is overcrowded and need relief without seeing their own self-conflation.
They should have started building hs2 in northern England and worked their way down. Even if it was never completed the line could be reused to connect Birmingham with Sheffield, Manchester and Newcastle. Possibly even Scotland
Why don't people like your self realise in major transport construction they do not start building fro one end only, HS2 has been constructed the whole length of the line other wise it would not of been built at all
@@peterwilliamallen1063Wrong. Only phase 1, the part south of Birmingham, has commenced
@@peterwilliamallen1063while they don’t build from one end they are funded in phases
@@rhysrail I know they don't build from one end but build the whole track alighnment in sections at the same time, mate I live in Birmingham and have been watching them build it and it has funding mate as you can see the HS2 construction work going on all the way from Birmingham Curzon Street South to London Euston and North as far as Handsacre in North Staffordshire
@@rogerphelps9939 It is being constructed all the way from Birmingham Curzon Street to London OOC and London Euston and from Birmingham North to Handsacre in North Staffordshire, I think you need to take a better look at HS2
Fantastic effort, thank you. FYI there is an easily web accessible image of the Old Church and the River Fleet showing how close the two actually were.
Just across Pancras Road from each other!
St pancras would have been ideal, but nothing related to hs2 is close to ideal
Indeed. Plus when you consider what "might have been" regarding the Great Central Railway into St Pancras and closed by Beeching it is so sad that we once had the railway that would have been cheaply and easily upgraded to form HS2, given how straight it was and thus how it was ahead of its time in accommodating high speed rail.
It's a pity they won't consider reinstating the cancelled section to Scotland as it could have been a faster link to up this end of the country
it was never planned to go to scotland
If, as has happened, the entire HS1/HS2 scheme was not planned and committed to from the outset (including all interchanges and the east/west northern connectivity) it is little wonder that it has turned inexorably into a shitshow! Piecemeal just doesn't cut it on next generation schemes!
There are only two options: 1. Complete the entire original scheme, including northern powerhouse AND HS1/HS2 direct connection, or if this is not possible, and given the fiscal poverty of Britain, 2. CANCEL all remaining HS2 and spend the money on a serious upgrading of northern rail links to match the progress made south of Watford! Then electrify Midland Mainline all the way to Leeds via both Nottingham and Derby, plus the Sheffield-Manchester link.
Stop nattering about it in Parliament. Just do it! And for heaven's sake stop being so Londoncentric about everything!! There IS intelligent life outside the Home Counties: all we seem to hear about projects is Londonlondonlondonlondon!
As a Northerner…who cares. We can work out the Tube, to get between stations in London.
We just want a modern train network, a HS2, to replace the antiquated system we’ve got in the North. Spend the money there, not fiddling with hugely expensive “last mile” in London… hugely better value (distance) for money
I don't get Britain's obsession with big terminal stations that end in buffers...
This really is an interesting topic, but for non-Londoners, it would be great to do a little explaining when showing maps of existing/planned lines and not just pan over the map few seconds and be done with it 😊
*OLD OAK COMMON is for transfers to* east and west routes, including Stratford and Heathrow. (Lizzy Line)
*EUSTON is for transfers to* north and south routes (Northern Line.)
_That was they original plan._
Rip northern line. And crossrail 2, its only hope won't come for another 20 years at least
What gets my goat is that everything/everybody has to go through London, and there are no through routes through London worthy of the name. You always end up standing next to the service disruption display, walking the full length of a terminus station three times (with luggage) to find a viable connection to your next terminus station. The whole "Cross Country" rail concept has been irreparably broken.
@@etherealbolweevil6268I agree, though I think getting to places like Kent you always had to do this, in modern, post Victorian times at least.
It was quite surprising to me that Euston and St. Pancras are that close to each other, but a link of sorts might be advantageous, say, a transparent-walled raised 'trottoir roulant', as the French say, to reflect the historic links with that country, along the alignment of that people mover, but a more simply constructed solution. Thank you for that historical background, BTW.
There's 3 different major stations within a walking distance to each other and 2 of them share a tube station. how they fail to connect HS2 to the Eurostar I'll never know
Yep we should get out and walk to get some exercise. Stuck on a Train for two hours, a good walk for fresh air and exercise.
ppl are too lazy nowadays to walk even half a kilometer
@@50upss Yet the case for the HS1-HS2 link needed, in order to justify the expense, over a train load of passengers each hour (out of 6 trainloads - 3 per direction. ie about 1 in 4 or 5 passengers using the link) using it get off at Stratford International and walk a slightly shorter distance to the main Stratford station to get to destinations in East London and the Docklands slower than if they took the Elizabeth line from Old Oak Common. Obviously the straw clutching modelling had no one walk between Euston and St Pancras despite it being a similar distance.
There's little demand for HS1-HS2 trains and only a handful of destinations could be served both directly and quasi-frequently (so most North-Continent passengers would have to change despite the through trains). HS2 passengers would be far better served by a moving walkway that linked all the Euston destinations with all the KXSP destinations - providing them with easy access to the more useful destinations out of St Pancras like Croydon and Cockfosters as well as the cooler-sounding ones like Paris and Lille.
The exact route ran behind the Camden Stables, connecting to the Overground, which is overloaded as it is. It can still run underground.
There were plans to link HS2 and HS1 just north of St. Pancras International and King’s Cross but that has been cancelled due to high costs. I understand that London Euston is going through a massive reconstruction and to be rebuilt because of HS2. And with more extra platforms to be built.
Ramps were built when hs1 was done.only the tunnel wasn't
The Elizabeth Line is at full capacity coming out of London between 16:00 and 19:00. Trying to get to Reading is a nightmare because folks that work in the city fill the trains completely to Hayes. I imagine the situation in the morning rush hours would be the same.
interesting video. Euston will have to be rebuilt anyway. I like the monorail idea.
It definitely needs something but HS1/Eurostar and HS2 should run into the same station with no need for having 2 stations, as well as skirting trains directly from Birmingham (and hopefully Manchester) to go directly to Paris and Brussels. This is just British incompetence at its greatest. In the video it's mentioned that the British Library is in the way, well move it, it doesn't need to be in that location anyway. I know this wouldn't be able to be done overnight but it's another case of thinking small and fudging the solution.
After what the British Library cost it isn't coming down. And there's an 8 storey basement under it. So tunelling under isn't an option.
I like the monorail option to connect the stations, I would ride on it just for the sake of it!
Shame there isn't anything left of the Polygon, such a historic and groundbreaking building, the first housing estate in an area known for its housing estates.
R.I.P. Joan Merrett 🌹
Monorail, like Hyperloops, are similar to a chocolate teapot.
I think the monorail would be fun too but just how long would it take to plan and build!
@@EdgyNumber1 They should use a guided shuttle of some kind. Plenty of examples around the world to base it on.
@@samuelmelton8353 What, chocolate teapots?
@@EdgyNumber1 In fairness, you can't deny that a chocolate teapot would be significantly tastier than a regular teapot.
I used to frequent that bar in Euston too, back in the 1990's. I once lent Peter Hain my phone battery in 1997 in the run-up to General Election. He had the same model of phone I had (a Nortel One2One), and I happened to be both a Labour Party supporter and enough of a wonk to know who he was. Ah, the days before battery banks
He bought me a drink to cover the outrageous costs per minutes of my calling plan. Not on expenses he assured me.
I remember him when he was a Young Liberal!
Thanks for this explanation - and for the very interesting walk through Somers Town, which shows, I think, what might be the consequence if even only 5% of a 400metre HS2 train (and there might end up being 18 of them every hour) decided to walk on this route between Euston and St Pancras. There is one option for HS2 at the London end whch you don't list, and which I'm not even sure the official planners have considered, which is to use the line to kick off a proper review and plan for all the rail lines which terminate around the edge of central London. I have to say the idea of a mega-station at KXSP is scary: why do planners have the idea that people love the airport experience? Over much of mainland Europe rail termini arebeing discarded in favour of through stations, but one big station in London would be too large and complex, so how about a triangle of stations - maybe City, West End and Southbank? - each through line would stop at two of these, giving one-change connections to all the other through lines (real competition for the M25). HS2, approaching from the west, would stop at OOC, West End and City, and if it went on to or via Stratford it could still connect easily with HS1, as well as with the SE expresses to east Kent. Expensive - yes; but so it seems is Euston, which will not be properly finished until Crossrail 2 is built. And with four London stops, at places with good local connections and where people want to go anyway, the load will be spread.
Look forward to your next video
I also couldn’t have imagined the huge congestion transferring from the mega station down to the Underground! It was considered very originally but dismissed quickly
Personally, i feel HS2 should have linked up to HS1 at Stratford International (ill call Stratford HS). You could then terminate the trains in Stratford HS and Old Oak common, with possible extensions to Ebbsfleet etc.
This has two huge benefits.
Firstly - Stratford HS now has a purpose. You end up with a major High speed hub in the East and West of the city, both linked to the Elizabeth line. Euston may be better connected, but also it must have been more expensive to redevelop.
Secondly - You can then connect the Heathrow and Stansted Express's directly to this line. Making a London Airport express serving Heathrow, Old Oak Common, Stratford, then Stansted via Harlow, Bishop Stortford, etc.
Whilst I do agree with this it would still need a Central London terminus as well. I'm just thinking of the times and places I've lived in London, in Hammersmith and Crouch End and ending up at Old Oak Common or Stratford would have been a total nightmare, just as it was getting to Paddington to get the GWR so this isn't really a solution, it's in addition to I think. I do agree though that HS2 should definitely link to HS1.
...and what's more, much of the engineering/maintenance infrastructure at Temple Mills could have been expanded and used to service and store both fleets.
All this is absolute rubbish, when people from the Midlands and the North travel to London, they want to get off at Euston, not Stratford
@@peterwilliamallen1063 and why do they want to get off at Euston?
What's in Euston that appeals to them so greatly?
They more than likely want an onward connection, which both Old Oak and Stratford provide.
@@Garfie489 No when we get off at Euston we have access to Bus routes and the Tube, there is no reson for ust to go to Stratford, the only Stratford we are likely to go to is where the Bard used to live on the River Avon, nothing in Euston. it how things have been done for over 100 years, but what is at Stratford East London that appels to Midlanders and Northerners nothing.
with some shenanigans around primerose hill junction, you could possibly connect HS2 to HS1, HS1 is already connected to the north london line, dig up old primerose hill station platform, to create an drop, enter the tunnel of the up empty carrage line (abandoned) and head north an littleway, i could connect to the HS2 tunnel
that was really interesting, thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
I usually just walk between EUS and STP via Euston Road which is one of London’s worst maintained footpath. The surface is all over the place.
The big bonus of the route is a pint in The Rocket!
1:37 “Allowing journeys between Birmingham and Brussels to be a doddle.” 😢 What a missed opportunity!
Would have been a change at both Interchange and Lille if using an avoid-Euston/St Pancras HS1-HS2 link (which, would you given that Euston-St Pancras is only one change?). Every train was Manchester/Leeds - Paris (stopping everywhere and so no quicker than changing in London, and less frequent) - any serving of central Birmingham would deny that train going further north, which was a political no no.
Absolutely no way would the Elizabeth line have been routed via Kings Cross. If it had it would not have relieved the Central line which was a key purpose. The answer for Kings Cross and connecting it with Euston was then and still is, Crossrail 2.
Also, it’s the line capacity that is by *far* the biggest issue for running HS2 trains onto the Elizabeth line and should have been mentioned first. Crossrail was built for a 30tph service and all the paths that aren’t currently used will be needed in future for Elizabeth line increased service.
The Victorians built three London stations in close proximity within 1000 metres, Euston, St Pancras and Kings Cross. There is no land in the area to build an extended station at Euston for HS2 without demolishing buildings. Old Oak common is on the Paddington line but very near the Euston line. A passenger tunnel with flat escalators is proposed between Euston and Kings Cross stations.
The reason for all the separate London stations so close together was that they were all built by different railway companies and then, as now, you had to have an Act of Parliament to build a railway, e.g. High Speed Rail (London - West Midlands) Act 2017. It really precludes any logical transport planning.
You couldn't make it up! The short-sightedness and London-centricity of this country (or at least its governments) never ceases to stagger me. Thanks for your well researched video - but there were other things to consider. For a start, that 600m gap is not only between HS1 and HS2, it a 600m gap on the route between the north of England and the South of France and beyond in terms of high-speed rail. Thought of like that, it becomes even more ridiculous. You would have done well to compare the proposed solutions with the kind of infrastructure being built on the continent - that would have shown up how utterly inadequate the compromise plans really are. Secondly, there is the issue of economies of scale and wider connectivity to consider. HS2 being completely separate means there is no possibility of using the same rolling stock, maintenance facilities, bulk future orders etc - everything needs to be duplicated, adding to the cost. And even allowing for the Home Office's reluctance to make life easy for people travelling to/from the continent, how about the synergies between the north and south of London? You would effectively end up with Crossrail 3 by linking the two. But people can't see beyond London (in the same way that Crossrail 1 should have been about East Anglia to Bristol/South Wales, not just a London shuttle; it happens elsewhere...). The best solution is your last one - that was proposed by a consortium some years back - but by now it should be well underway. What's more, through stations don't need to be as big as termini because dwell times are much shorter. And as for 'no demand', there was very little demand for rail travel from London to the continent by way of the old boat trains - until Eurostar opened. The demand is there, just as it is for similar journeys on the continent - it just can't be seen.
A very detailed and considered response - thanks!
The low demand is the cost aspect, not the want prospect. It's much cheaper to fly than to take at least two trains. If the trains were affordable there would certainly be enough demand, however it is just too expensive for regular business commuters and holiday makers as of now
Outside of the largest urban areas and south east rail travel is not run in any way to be a public service or create economic change. The idea of £160 to get to London from north of Birmingham before lunch is just not on because the capacity is limited they price people off the service. We don’t need a London link, we need better connections in the north to the north. Hs1 got built off course and all the work around London will get completed and a new Euston while the likes of Crewe look derelict.
@@x_zschannel That's something of a circular argument - grow demand and you can cut prices. There are also political decisions to be made - for example the level of access charges (on HS1) which are far higher than on the continent and which push fares up - and fares policy more generally. Trains tend to be a more pleasant experience than planes - and that's before we consider the sustainability aspect.
@@pauledwards2817 That is a matter of national outlook and economic priorities, not some kind of natural inevitability. I quite agree, an entirely different mindset is needed but maybe the wind is starting to move slightly in a better direction? You may not need a 'London link' - but you *do* need a better Europe Link. The simple fact is, in the bigger geo-economic scheme of things, the north of Britain is an even more remote and marginal area than the south of this island, and the only way to counter that is to tie it more closely to Europe's economic heartlands. Which is not to say better intra-regional transport is not needed: you need both, and the synergy they would create.
The cancellation of the interconnection between HS1 and HS2 is shame, it could have routed some domestic services through (Birmingham-Old Oak Common-Stratford International -Ashford International), that could offer some relieve to St Pancras (International) and Euston stations as well as to the lines/servicing feeding them.
Reopening the Eurostar facilities at Ebbsfleet International or Ashford International could make it a better fit for transfer for trains to the continent. As an alternative direct trains from Birmingham to the continent could make a stop in Stratford International so you can relief St Pancras a bit and finally honour the International suffix of Stratford International. Paris did get an interconnection LGV between LGV Nord and (almost) all other Paris terminating LGV's.
It seems UK Government and Network rail did not learn from France and SNCF Reseau to build HS lines and network.
There's no space on HS2 for that unless you divert trains away from the destination that ~70% of people want (Euston) - which would make the other trains busier, as well as less reliable due to the reverse branching.
Don't have a London terminus. Run the trains straight through, under, to the south coast (or maybe HS1). Cheaper land with more connectivity.
What lol. Would be very inconvenient for people going to London.
@samuelmelton8353 You'd still have London stations, but they'd be through stations (like Thameslink). You'd get more London stations with less expensive central London land.
@@domtweed7323 Sorry, I see. Yeah, maybe this could work.
@samuelmelton8353 Na, it's my fault for not being clear.
Personally what i would do if we were serious about high speed railways would be a dedicated underground line with a central underground station in the centre either with terminus platforms or 2 above ground stations outside the city so after they run through they could terminate there or just continue to run on to HS1 or HS2, this would open up the possibility of commuting from London to further away places maybe even in France if they better worked out the borders
I think some of the technological / infrastructure reasons you gave against integrating HS2 with other stations are not that important, as they assume things about HS2 which could have just been decided differently if they wanted to ensure the integrations were possible. The station capacity, and service pattern constraints, were surely the main reason. Being in the same place as the terminus of the existing trains which go to the same part of the country is also a major advantage when it comes to dealing with disruption.
I was against HS2 being built to high speed standards. But at this stage we may as well finish the project to it's original design specs starting at Euston and finishing in the north. To not start at Euston and not even get to at least Crewe is just madness.
I needed to know why they couldn’t dig a tunnel and do an extension for most of the mainline Trains so that they could extend the unused abandoned underground train stations. Why couldn’t they use the part D78 Stock train doors on the sides and also restructure the front face of the A60 and A62 stock which will include the class 507, class 508, class 313, class 314 and class 315 remix and make them all together and also redesign all of them into an overhead wire line trains and also make most of them into Five carriages per units and also having three Disabled Toilets on those Five cars per units A60 and A62 stock trains and also convert the A60 and A62 stock trains into a Gardner 6LXCT, Leyland 510, Gardner 6LXC, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner LG1200 and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Engines and also put the Loud 7 Speed Voith Gearboxes even Loud 10 Speed Leyland Hydra cyclic Gearboxes in the A60 and A62 stock, class 507, class 508, class 313, class 314, and class 315 and also modernise the A60 and A62 stock and make it into 11 carriages per unit so it could have fewer doors, more tables, computers and mobile phone chargers? A Stock Train and 8 Disabled Toilets on those A stock trains. why couldn’t we refurbish and modernise the waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel and make it even much more Larger and extend it to the bank station, making it into a Triple-Track Railway Line so those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden to convert the waterloo and city line Triple-Track Railway tunnel into a High-Speed Railway lines? The Third Euro tunnel Triple-Track Railway line to make it 11 times better for passengers so they could go from A to B. Then put the modernised 11 carriages per unit A Stock and put them on a bigger modernised Waterloo and city line Triple-Track train tunnel so it could go to bank station to those Five countries such as Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. The modernised refurbished 11 carriages per unit A stock could be a High Speed The Third Triple-Track Euro Tunnel Train So it is promising and 47 times a lot more possible to do this kind of project if that will be OK for London Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden. oh by the way, could they also tunnel the Triple-Track Railway Line so it will stop from Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex so that the Passengers will go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland and Sweden and also extend the Triple-Track Railway Line from the Bank to Buckinghamshire, Hertfordshire and Essex Stations so that more people from there could go to Australia, Germany, Italy, Poland And Sweden more Easily. Why couldn't they extend the Piccadilly Line and also build brand-new underground train stations so it could go even further right up to Clapton, Wood Street can they also make another brand new underground train station in Chingford and could they extend the Piccadilly Line and the DLR right up to Chingford? All of the classes 150, 155, 154, 117, 114, 105, and 106, will be replaced by all of the Gardner 6LXCT, Leyland 510, Volvo B10M, Gardner 6LXC, Gardner 6LXB, Gardner LG1200 and Gardner 8LXB Diesel Five carriages three disabled toilets are air conditioning trains including Highams Park for extended roots which is the Piccadilly line and the DLR trains. Could you also convert all of the 1973 stock trains into an air-conditioned maximum speed 78 km/hours (48 MPH) re-refurbished and make it into a 8 cars per unit if that will be alright, and also extend all of the Piccadilly train stations to make more space for all of the extended 8 car per unit 1973 stock air condition trains and can you also build another Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive Companies and can they order Every 87 Octagon and Every 48 Hexagon shape LNER diagram unique small no.13 and unique small no.11 Boilers from those Countries such as Greece, Italy, Poland, and Sweden, can they make Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive speeds by up to 147MPH so you can try and test it on the Original Mainline so it will be much more safer for the Passengers to enjoy the 147MPH speed Limit only for HS2 and Channel Tunnel mainline services, if they needed 16 Carriages Per units, can they use those class 55’s, class 44’s, class 40’s and class 43HST Diesel Locomotive’s right at the Back of those 18 Carriages Per Units so they can take over at the Back to let those Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s have a rest for those interesting Journeys Please!!!!!!!!!!, oh can you make all of those 18 Tonne Boxes of Coal for all of those 147MPH Mayflower and Tornado Steam Locomotive’s so the Companies will Understand us PASSENGER’S!!!!!! So please make sure that the Builders can do as they are told!!!!!!!!!! And PLEASE do something about these very very important Professional ideas Please? Prime Minister of England, Prime Minister of Australia, Prime Minister of Sweden, Prime Minister of Germany, Prime Minister of Italy, Prime Minister of Poland and that Includes the Mayor of London.
In the budget today the government said Euston is going to be the terminus
And interestingly they said they are funding the tunnels from OOC but made no mention of funding the new station at Euston or refurbishing the existing Euston. Thats probably because they are still looking for private investment but if nobody is interested they will have to find more money. That looks like being sometime in the future so we are likely to end up with the tunnels but no station for some time.
@@TrevorWilliams-fq8mgbasically, they’re unlikely to get much of win from the private sector but what they might get is still be worth exploring. Trouble is, no serious private sector player would spend the time and money looking at it if there was a question over whether the tunnels were even getting built there in the first place. This decision at least allows those conversations to actually happen.
You make a fair point. Another thing that crossed my mind is what money would have been wasted if they had cancelled the tunnels. There's the money already spent on preparing the site which must be considerable as a lot of foundation work has already taken place. And they must have paid for the tunnel boring machines which were on about a 2 year delivery period. They cost about 20 million each. Still, wasting money has been a common theme for HS2. Within 3 days of Sunak cancelling the northern leg a year ago they placed a 300 million order for ground investigation work to that section.
I live in Kent. Eurostar does now NOT stop in either Ebbsfleet or Ashford. We are also getting a 'Lower Thames Crossing ' ....only for roads. Why not adding a rail tunnel. We have Eurostar/HS1. sharing the same line which could link to link to HS2 and.......an extended Eurostar service to the Midlands and the North, gosh.......even to Scotland. Now would that be something
Cool gravestone tree
I recognise that map at 01:48. I have a web link to it. It's a geographically accurate representation of the various rail routes in London.
A visitor from another planet wouldn’t believe that railways were invented in the UK, such has been the lack of joined-up thinking in successive governments
It is quite incredible, that a country that once ruled the world with their civil engineering and industrial abilities, has fallen so low. I am British and live in France. They get their stuff together, on time and on budget. They also sort out all the issues in advance. Whereas Britain has lost it. Probably due to arrogance, stoicism and corruption. Sad really!
Corruption build on oligarchy.
when it opens, it would be cool if heathrow ex could start at terminal 5, mid-turnaround at old oak common and continue to birmingham and whatever. not going to happen, but ot would give heathrow express a purpose. oh, and i dint think the 387s are suited for that route, so maybe new rolling stock like long-distance desiros or something
I’ve walked between Euston and St Pancras many times but always walk along Euston Road because I thought that was shorter.
I should add, in connection with the North London Line connector, that the bridges between Camden Stables and Camley Street have a derelict two-track span to the north. Given th HS1 portal sends trains to the south, it would seem rational to shift the Overground into this space, with a rebuilt Camden Road station. That's sub-optimal, as trains would slow for surface running, though.
That was the plan. But to be the GC-gauge of HS1 and HS2, it had to be single track and freight trains weren't allowed to use it. Cost £3bn, allowed 3tph/direction (which it needed passengers walking between Stratford and Stratford International to fill up).
@@sihollett Think of it as space rather than track, in the original plan, but I still revert to my final comment, tunnelling below that line to connect to HS1 somewhere under Hackney would allow a straight-through run. Stratford International's pretty irrelevant, other than as the branch junction to the service base which can use reservoir reclaimed land, replacing the capacity to the north. You've then got three shuttle spurs, to the Elizabeth Stratford and OOC, Paddington and St Pancras, and possibly ThamesLink.
@@JelMain But you need track to run trains - thinking of it as space is silly! But not as silly as routing HS2 to HS1, given the lack of demand for through traffic between the High Speed lines (hence why, despite the limits of the line being single track, they needed people walking a quarter mile through a shopping centre to try and fill trains up).
And then you propose having London to Europe/Kent travellers have to change at Stratford onto a shuttle. Trains almost emptying out with the passengers all going to the same train. Pointless! 🤦♂
just build a tunnel with a travelator as the monorail far too expensive plus dig a tunnel between Euston and Euston Square tube
They should have an automated shuttle.
Euston Square tie in is in the Euston HS2 plans.
A shame there's such a lack of forward-thinking with HSR in the UK. Would've been great seeing sleeper trains to the continent leaving from Edinburgh, or jumping on a TGV in the north to reach France. That said, Paris has a similar lack of direct connectivity with its Termini, and my experience has only really been the short walk between the Gare du Nord and Gare de l'Est. Can't say I've had to make a mad dash between St. Lazare and Montparnasse - though back in the day we did use to have to rush from Kings Cross to Waterloo to grab the Eurostar...
Gare de Lyon and Gare d'Austerlitz are also very close, and Bercy isn't very far either
You know, considering that Tokyo station has just 6 tracks for each shinkansen line (and no, none of these tracks are through, the line to Osaka and the line to the north operate independently), I don't get why London's terminus NEEDS so many platforms. Just be like the Japanese and be more efficient at turning trains around. The idea of HS2 is to have less disruptions on this new trunk line, after all, so you should be free to optimize the time down to the seconds. Otherwise, if you are building HS2 thinking it's gonna get disrupted all the time, what are you even doing.
I lied, the Tohoku shinkansen has just four tracks at Tokyo station. The entire Tokyo terminus essentially uses just 10 tracks for HS1+HS2 together.
"Just be like the Japanese" this already is not possible.
@@volty58 Point taken.
Would you ever do a video on the regional eurostar scheme?
New subscriber so apologies if you have already done a video on that.
Alas even this video was a bit of an outlier for me. It featured a walk between Euston and St Pancras and sort of grew!
i always wonder why there wasn't a proposal for a station on the brownfield site north of kings cross st pancras. not necessarily as the main station but as one for a number of services onto Europe
or even ignoring that, to allow for XC services from Kent to the north
0:01 Won't you take me to Funkytown!
great video
Thanks!
Rather than worrying about how people from the North get to Europe (I'm not sure of the stats on the number of people who want a direct train from Manchester to Brussels) why not concentrate on getting every high speed train north of Birmingham onto HS2 and terminate somewhere in London (probably Euston)
This would basically eliminate 125mph spacing on the WCML and run the pendolinos and whatever is used on the HS2 core at 140mph
Trains from north of Birmingham already do limited stop (some from Glasgow for example don't stop south of Warrington...)
Makes much more sense to funnel fast trains from the victorian lines than to find ways to provide provincial connections to Europe
How do people from the North get to Europe, they buy a ticket nd get on a plane direct so simple
Birmingham and Manchester aren't solely "The North" going from Nottingham to STP suits me fine.
Old Oak Common is ill designed in location and size, 22 platforms just to connect HS2 to the Elizabeth Line and Overground, while most passengers continue into Euston.
So the same engineers who designed both HS1 and HS2, incredibly forgetting the 600m bit between the two of them, rather than being berated for their error, are now earning massive fees to provide sticky-plaster options to span the gap?
The engineers design what they're told to. It's not their fault government didn't want it.
You can't blame the HS1 designers. They designed HS1 to provide good connections to the north and west by bringing it out next to the North London Line that gives direct access to the WCML and GWML. This would also have provided easy connection to any future high speed lines to the north or west. It was entirely on HS2 that wasn't designed for any connection to HS1.
They should build a 4 track underground through station underneath Tottenham Court Road station. So that HS1 and HS2 could be connected already "downtown".
You can have HS2 phase 2 and NPR. Or you can have this. Same price tag.
When the Channel Tunnel was announced we were promised through trains from Europe to Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh. It was obviously just bait and switch. The High Speed network that is coming about is ridiculously planned, and a complete waste of money.
When I first saw the initial plans and found that HS2 was not going to integrate with HS1 i knew the whole thing was a very very expensive white elephant.
You missed a big option. HS2 station Between Euston and StPanc... with front exit into StPanc and rear of the 400m trainsets exit into Euston.
These would be subterranean larger bored holes and passage ways dug out.
It would have the xRail2 (actually 3 if count thameslink 2000 as Crossrail 1)... the new whenever it is built station would be DEEP like at Bond or TCR etc. stacked below it would be HS2 with terminating tunnel bores and through tunnel bores (pair of Up and Down lines to join HS1 somewhere after tunnel portal at King's Cross with the most likely being into the station box at Stratford Intl.
Instead of the ) loop up over and into Euston, it would be forward to East from OOC.
Another option, the Grand Paris Option... A total rebuild of Euston with WCML at ground level and HS2 below ground with the new station frontage/entrance facing East, across street from St Pancreas. Occupying the land across the street, in corner of Brill Place and Midland Road. The old station to be totally razed to the ground and have it rebuilt with High Density DECENT sized and build housing Units.
The existing site could easily have 12 to 15,000+ units just using a [ X ] block shape around and towers in centre (similar to Docklands but more a mini city. It would have schools, shops, minor injuries walk in, and GPs, etc. Surround the existing maximum footprint with 320m tall flats and fill in the centre with a X shaped building. These would all have excellent connections to the Existing TfL LUL stations.
In urban areas we are going to either have to Build taller to the Maximum allowed (change to 500m) in London and as well, build entire NEW Cities a la the way China is building the new Eco City 100km from Beijing. There is ample room on the hills along centre of England and another in Kent/Essex.
why not close phoenix rd to car traffic, use half of its width to build a tasteful glass covered moving walkway? To mitigate locals the other half could be developed into a mini line park.
Why does HS2 need to terminate at Euston (or anywhere in Greater London)? Well that is the key question and I would like to know the answer too. Let's see the whole strategy and long term plan because it makes no sense at all to me. How does it fit in with the needs of UK citizens in the 21st century?
The long term plan has been scrapped. Politicians can't see further than the end of their nose.
Because MML, WCML and even ECML are running above capacity. MML are having to slow down express services as the lanes are full so they don`t get enough time and distance to run an express through. HS2 was to solve that in 1 stroke so the fast stuff can run down its own lane - freeing up alot of extra capacity everywhere else, almost like building 3 new railways - that`s how much would be freed up.
because a lot of people want to travel to London?
I would be interested to know how many other journeys are not made because the rail service does not exist. It's likely many of these alternative projects can be built at much lower cost and give quicker benefits (cost, efficiency, environmental etc.). I am not convinced that most UK citizens see London as the place they most want to get to and from. Imagine if Britons could get to and from mainland Europe without even passing through the UK's most expensive property & land? 200 years ago we were railway pioneers.
Because London is where people want to go, and the railway follows demand. Otherwise a great deal of money could have been saved by making HS2 a circular railway with no stations somewhere up north where land was cheaper.
A potentially good use of data/ AI might be to transfer the layouts in old maps to a Google Maps 'template' - for modern viewers, these are second nature to read, and are designed to convey map information effectively. Older maps can be hard to make sense of at a glance.
Imagine being able to slide between old street layouts in the same visual format.
Follow the link in the video description
I don’t like the idea of HS2 at St.Pancras - St.Pancras International is already too busy and not made to handle more than 1000 travelers an hour…
Not enough space !
Indeed!
They really need to go all the way to Manchester. HS2 is useless to just go to Birmingham when the trains up north need improving. The west coast mainline is very congested
I get that St Pancras vant have new platforms, but surely you could convert existing ones and just move those services to Euston?
The Victoria and Northern lines are already FULL during peak hours. Where are the extra passengers going to go?
I'm amazed anyone is still speculating about stuff like this! The Chancellor has just announced tunnelling to Euston will go ahead. Nothing else is happening, because HS2 Ltd lost all control of Phase 1 costs!! Thus there was no mention of high speed rail whatsoever in the Budget, apart from Euston. As for Network Rail, Transpennine electrification was announced, again. East-West rail was announced, again. That's it. And given how dependent the post-covid railway is on taxpayer handouts, no one should be surprised or disappointed.
And that's about all that was ever going to be mentioned. Interestingly nothing was mentioned about government funding for the new station, only the tunnels.
People won't walk. It's too far.
5:44 to 6:10 why was the Camden Town link too difficult and expensive? Please could you elaborate. Putting cost to one side, is this still a possibility please?
It was because of the immense disruption of the proposed tunnelling to the local community above
It was due to the imbalance between how much it would cost, and the relatively low percentage of passengers wanting to go to Europe.
HS2, as usual with British infrastructure projects. It gets built in isolation with no long-term thought for future builds. This could have been planned in the 1980s when the Channel Tunnel and HS1 were planned! Just as there's little thought for HS3, 4 or more.
blimey i remember the big dog man - i commuted daily 2000-2012
Sure he was there long before your dates too!
Don’t worry about it mate you won’t be able to afford to travel on it anyway.
The HS1 to HS2 link through Camden being cancelled due to the "disruption" it'd cause... Have they seen the amound of disruption HS2 is causing throughout the rest of the route? Or is this just another case of "Not on my doorstep" as it wouldn't be beneficial to London?
Just get on and Build Crossrail 2. Problem solved. We are going to have to build it sometime, so cheaper to get on with it now.
I can't agree with you on the distances. 600m booking office to booking office may be accurate. But I've always had to walk at least 300m up platforms at St Pancras and a similar distance at Euston HS2 would give 1.2km. Nasmyth's rule at 3km/h is more appropriate for estimating the walking speed of a loaded individual negotiating heavily trafficked footways with obstacles. So your 6 minute walk will actually be more like 24 minutes. Add in the time cost of unfamiliarity with long platform walks and I'm advising people to allow 30-45 minutes for transfer from HS1 to HS2.
Was consideration ever given to electrifying the Chiltern Main Line?
Why would any planner out so much into one spot. Kings Cross was never going to be HS2. One incident, one bomb scare and transport to the north would all be halted.
That was why it was considered for a few months but then dismissed. I think the combined terminal idea first appeared at the time the Metropolitan Railway was being planned
An excellent overview but it made me laugh when you started talking about people getting the bus or walking between E and SP. High-speed travel needs a high-speed solution.
a direct through route from the north into France and the rest of Europe would bring lots of tourism traffic. I can't imagine many people doing it if they have to change at Euston though. Sure the walk is 7 minutes but this isn't accounting for the whole pullava of families getting their kids off the train and your luggage and getting them through the busy waiting area at euston, faffing around with tickets, stress of worrying about missing your train blablabla. Not having a connection from HS1 to HS2 seems short sighted in that regard.
2:15 Berlin Bank BREPS in the late 70s, early 80s.
14:08 Battleb ridge (named after an Anglo-Saxon battle) was where the (Imperial) gas-holders were\are (16:27 & 27:34)
The short answer is simple : cash - there is never enough of it