Another part of a video series from Wordonfire.org. Bishop Barron will be commenting on subjects from modern day culture. For more visit www.wordonfire.org/
Thanks for the review. I loved this film, though it struck me that Ottway DOES in fact get an answer to his demand, "Show me something real!", when he finds the photos in his friends' wallets of their families. He builds a little altar of them, and God's answer seems to be "Love." It's then that he determines to live and to fight for life, because Love is worth fighting for.
I interpreted the ending of the film as simply saying that in order to transcend suffering one must voluntarily embrace it. All through the film the main character is existing as a victim, through the loss of his wife and the pursuit of the wolves. It's only in the final scene do we see him finally turn and face his demons.
He had took for granted his will to live. The ending "prayer" out of desperation I argue was answered and quickly. He at that moment reflected on the last moments of his wife's life and the audience got to see that she was terminally ill. Facing death at the end staring the wolf in the face as he strapped on the broken glass bottles and held his knife in his hand was God answering his prayer giving him what he truly wanted to be reunited with his wife again.
The Grey is quite possibly my favorite movie! ever noticed how after he is swearing at God and says "Fu*k it, I can do it myself" noticed how he walks directly into the den of the Wolves?. that's cool I never even noticed that. My mom told me.
Father, I think the interpretation that came to mi mind was, the wolves are coming and sooner or later we all gonna die, why fight with everything you have only when your life is endangered, better to live and die in one day. We should fight to death every single day of our lives, and appreciate our love ones to make our life more meaningful.
"In one scene, Neeson’s character -who earlier denied belief in God - challenges God, demanding help or answers. It was Neeson’s idea, Carnahan says, to pause in something very like prayer and carefully arrange objects in what seems to be a cross." This is what I noticed: in the end Neeson's character bulds the wallets into a cross and he has his hands crossed when the wolves appear. So I don't think one can say straighforwardly he did not have faith in the end.
Father, did you happen to stay through the end credits? There's one final shot right after they've finished rolling that might put a whole new spin on how you view the film.
@MegaWallaceR The Magisterium doesn't typically declare what genre specific books of the Bible conform to. In the case of Job, however, it might be helpful to consider that almost all of it is written in verse.
The whole movie going forward, all of the struggles that he and the other characters went though with the wolves was God's way of giving a non believer in Neeson's character a "Zen" journey so to speak to be forced to live in the moment and be fully alive fighting to survive, help others and to reflect on his own god given life.
@BoethianAcolyte Sometimes. By the way, who did you sacrifice to become a Boethian acolyte? I used somebody from The College. And do you know from where my name originates?
If I have the choice between two worldviews, and both are consistent with the evidence that I see, and one gives dispair and absurdity while the ofther gives hope and significance to my life and my choices, I will choose the latter. It makes sense for me to be a Christian, dispite the difficulties.
When God breaks silence and speaks "out of the windstorm" in Job (38:1-2), in this case, I find the translation in the NWT compatible with other translations and helpful:"Who is this that is obscuring counsel by words without knowledge?" Yes, there is a cosmic tour that places life in context, but notice also there is a reassuring counsel that the mind that has not yet moved to the heart obscures. This fits perfectly the first instruction of Jesus: "Metanoia te." (Repent/Move your mind).
His 180 degree turn around from no will to live to fighting for his life and only wanting that I believe was his test to enter heaven. There is also a post credit picture of Neeson laying next to the collapsed bloody wolf as to leave in the mind as he even though he might have not survived , he still conquered death by facing the his inner demons conquered them and in return was given eternal life with his beloved wife.
Father, what struck me was how he kept on going back to his dieing wife who told him "Don't be afraid" I kept on thinking on the words of Christ "be not afraid." The film tells us don't be afraid because we all must die and there is nothing else, so why fear the nothing. Christ tells us be not afraid for there is something beyond this world and we shall live in the fullness of life. both gives us reasons not to fear, but one is grim and one is hope
Im not religious. but its a wonderful movie. im just sad that so many people didn't get the ending. he wanted to die. and by the end he was fighting to live. it doesn't matter how the fight would end. its thats he's fighting.
the prayer seemed very deep, similar to Job. However when he said "**** faith", I said to myself he better watch himself. Sure enough death caught up with him, although Idk if he died or not. If he would've remained humble God may have kept him alive, but its hard to tell wut happend
Hey, I enjoyed the discussion Barron, but I think you might have missed it. You contrast the rich context God presents Job with the either or (faith or atheism) seen in the film; but I believe that same context is found by our main character when lays out the wallets, ea containing a picture of a loved one. The love shared between ppl is the context and where our main character finds God. (It's a theme revisited over and over again in film.) thx!
Prayer? He put god on trail of his existence. Since there was no help or reply he figured he was on his own and always was. He basically was like fuck it I'll make it on my own there was no God
I identified keenly with John who sat by the river to die. My parents didn't seem to get that, especially not my mom. To me it was instantly identifiable. Yes, I shall sit, because I don't need to be running up and down the universe to try to control my fate. I can't control my fate like that. I can be with God though, and in that way I can see the divinity of life and that shows me all of the meanig and beauty. I would have sat very peacefully because I accept life as God's plan. I have long been done trying to manipulate reality to my will.
@quantumystery When speaking of God's love in the context of punishment, the need for simplicity typically requires one speak of it as "wrath" rather than "mercy". This isn't a "spin", just a manner of speaking. In reality, though God is changeless; he doesn't react wrathfully to some acts and mercifully towards others. Rather, certain acts react, if I may make a chemical analogy, with God's loving goodness in a way that are experienced either as wrath or mercy respectively.
@dsydebot What *has* changed is that we today tend to assume that more people are invincibly ignorant than was common prior to Vatican II. This is a cultural shift, though, and not a doctrinal change. And of course, there are plenty who simply ignore "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" altogether. They ought not be seen as representatives of Catholic teaching, though.
@dsydebot I am fortunate enough to be well read in the Catholic theology prior to Vatican II. Whatever you were learning at the popular level, Catholic theologians have always acknowledged invincible ignorance prevents nonbelievers or material heretics from being responsible for sins against faith. E.g., search Google Books for "Charity and Truth" by Edward Hawarden.
I agree, that SHOULD be the point of every movie. It's funny how society wants everything to be so mindless now a days. Looking deeply into movies SHOULD be the enjoyment of the film in and of itself. Don't be too afraid to think and question especially the most controversial thoughts, because that's the best way to grow as a person and as a society. That's not just my belief, it's been the belief of the most intelligent and influential members of our history.
He didn't have to say wolves every time. He could have just said death. Most people aren't gonna be caught in the wilderness, their gonna be hospitals, retirement homes, car accidents, house fires, and other things in cities and suburban areas.
@infernocanuck It is actually possible to demonstrate that the intellectual soul is indestructible by virtue of being indivisible. Such a demonstration wouldn't prove that we go on to either a life of blessedness of damnation, but it is a start, anyway.
In fact, Carnahan is perfectly comfortable with ambiguity: “I think if you’re an atheist, you look at the film and you say ‘He didn’t believe in God.’ If you’re a Christian: ‘100% he believed in God.’ I like that. I that like those things coexist. I’m a hell of a lot more interested to hear people talking to me about the film than for me to be telling them about the movie.” Thats a quote from the Direector. So I guess that explains all these opposing views. He was also raised Catholic btw
When I saw the movie my analysis is that when Liam Neeson's character was going to commit suicide in the beginning of the movie and the howl of the wolf stopped him. In a way that was God's way of saving him from committing suicide (and perhaps prayers from his wife in heaven) and face the possibility of him not being reunited with his deceased wife that would have been the tragic end, the devil (his inner demons) winning the battle for his soul as he lost the will to live.
I felt it subtly defied the gloomy finality of the last scene, where Neeson recites the poem before fighting the wolf. Instead of merely ending with the solemn blackness of the credits, we're given this spooky, lingering, ambiguous image...which alone implies there's something beyond the absoluteness of death. That's what I took from it, anyway.
@quantumystery God actively remains Himself (He must, because he is immutable). One of the results of that act of remaining Himself is the damnation of those who reject him. In that sense it is perfectly true to say that God sends people to Hell. The language used prior to Vatican II was correct. The difference is due looking at the "mechanisms" from the perspective of human experience, instead of from the perspective of divine simplicity. Human language is limited.
@infernocanuck Don't we use evidence or it's lack as sufficient warrant to conclude, at least, a reasonable probability? If we haven't evidence of an existing thing-a-ma-jig, is it probable that it exists outside of our imagination? We could create it & its facticity would then not be probable but actual. Because the evidence of eternal life is lacking, what's the probability of it existing? Certainty about the afterlife isn't possible but probability based on evidence is.
Only a coward go wimpering into the night. Life is a struggle to survive against all odds so the only way for life to end is like how life starts, with a roar and a kick.
"A sacred secret" is hardly an alternative to the daily suffering that's our lot. It's hardly a consolation to situate oneself in the grand design where one's efforts can do absolutely nothing. Doesn't "This is the way it is" allude to a faulty designer? Either/Or seems a more preferable & logical view. God eventually rewarded Job for his faithfulness while most of us aren't as we then must either "go gentle" or "rage." Would Fr. still believe in God if he found out that there's no eternal life?
@infernocanuck Because there's no evidence of it in the grand design? There's no-thing that our senses can apprehend that has a correlative nature of eternal life. Faith produces understanding without a warrant for the truth of what it understands. Articles of faith & theology seem to have little sway as man stands in the breech of life & death. Conscious dying, as the last human act, is all that an individual can reasonably hope for based on his/her own "will & representation."
I see what your saying. What I was getting at was that him making it on his own and surviving and the others dying doesn't mean there was no God in the film. Them being alive at all was a gift just as nature it self there's no supernatural event necessary to prove God. Even science points to what we can't understand such at the quantum theory that there is no meaning to the existence of a particle unless it is observed. In other words, until you see it, it doesn't exist.
Well. I am not alone. I have a family. My parents are gone. My first wife died but left an infant son. My grandchildren are babies now and we care for them. Schopenhauer's metaphor is false. "Intellectuals are intensely stupid". Wolves too care for their young. "This is the Law of the Jungle/ The Law that runs forward and back/ That the life of the pack is the wolf/ And the life of the wolf is the pack" with God waiting for us all at the end.
For me the whole "grey" was there limited view of life, sadness and doubt they manifested for themselves. Ok that's a little bit out there but I still say all of his prayers where realized even if subconsciously through the love and/or prayers of his wife. He could have just shot himself in the head but like you said he died fighting therefore saving his soul.
That guy puts the majority of the kills on the wolves, instead of saying that it was nature or environmental. He acknowledges the drowning, but not the others. If The Grey was more like Jaws or The Ghost and The Darkness, then he would have a valid reason to place the blame on the wolves. But I'm betting that he would have figuratively placed the blame on God if he acknowledged the deaths are environmental. Since there's wolves in the film blame them, because they're evil.
I'm pretty sure the film fully asserted that in the context of the movie there is no god. Liams character had to survive on his own. One character spoke about how he thought them surviving the plane crash was somehow meant to be. Yet in the end they all die without making it to society. Their stories are never told. They are lost to the grey waste never to be heard again. Eventually Liams character accepts death and faces it head on. His journey was at an end but he wouldn't go without a fight.
@dsydebot I agree with you! They soul that finds itself before God without ever loving Him in life will KNOW that he rejected God in this life, and therefore must also reject him in after-life..if he didn't love God on earth, how could he ever love Him in heaven? Man knows so little about the universe,(we don't even know whats in our own seas) yet claims to have all the answers with "modern technology" & "science". It is obvious to me that "this life" is NOT where "it's at". Heaven is. WITH GOD
to say that the message of the movie was naive existentialism is selling it short... God's ultimate design INCLUDES death and suffering. He is both alpha and omega. bitter and sweet.
This comment is of no religious or cinematic weight, but as a biologist I just want to clarify that the premise of the movie isn't that realistic. Wolves do not behave like that and doesn't really hunt humans since we aren't part of their natural prey. Of course they could have been there in a metaphorical sense (death, as mentioned), but this should be said anyway. Wolves are being killed for sport, poisoned etc in many areas around the world, no need in pouring gasoline on the raging fire.
@dsydebot In short, Hell *happens* to a damned soul because God, in his love, will not force anyone to love him. The simple result of an intellectual soul failing to love God is Hell. Hell is actively maintained by God in the same sense that two like magnetic poles push apart from one another; it is automatic and unavoidable due to the nature of the things in question.
People's prayers are answered in these situations though, as millions will testify, and if prayers are not answered there can be a whole range of Divine reasons for that. The non-answering in the movie was imaginary. One way to see it is that even an atheist will return to his original nature of believing in God when he is in desperate situations and needs help. Also note that Ottway called God a 'Fraud' which is not the type of language you expect will bring a positive response. Calling God a 'Fraud' can also reveal that a person does in fact believe in God but is angry at God for His plan or that they consider God has made false promises. But these false promises are in the eyes of one who has followed a man-made conception of the Attributes and Acts of God. God did not tell people that that there will be no death or difficulties in this life, the earth is not paradise.
wikipedia ... the font of all knowledge. did you not notice the word "certain" ? "pronoun 1.some but not all." any dictionary in existence. "A lone wolf howls to attract the attention of his pack, while communal howls may send territorial messages from one pack to another." ... "Wolves live and hunt in packs of around six to ten animals." ... "Wolfpacks are established according to a strict hierarchy, with a dominant male at the top and his mate not far behind. Usually this male and female are the only animals of the pack to breed. All of a pack's adults help to care for young pups by bringing them food and watching them while others hunt." national geographic. www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/g/gray-wolf/ wolves do NOT travel in "herds." period. wolves travel in "packs." period.
TO BE CLEAR, GOD DID HELP HIM, HE RECEIVED THE COURAGE TO BATTLE THE ALPHA MALE WOLF. AND AFTER THE CREDITS FINISH ROLLING THERE IS A SCENE WHERE THEY SHOW THE WOLF DEAD!
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This film is a remedy to me whenever I feel hopeless or guilty. Idk why.
I can relate.
@@jj767g Me to. Hope youre doing well
@@tayloradams906
Doing much better these days.
@@jj767g Glad to hear. Keep moving forward! Lol Didnt expect a response but awesome to hear from you!
Thanks for the review. I loved this film, though it struck me that Ottway DOES in fact get an answer to his demand, "Show me something real!", when he finds the photos in his friends' wallets of their families. He builds a little altar of them, and God's answer seems to be "Love." It's then that he determines to live and to fight for life, because Love is worth fighting for.
Interesting thought. You should check out the perspective laid out by a channel called Like Stories of Old on this film.
Isnt that his wife?
He is brilliant, love his insights!
I interpreted the ending of the film as simply saying that in order to transcend suffering one must voluntarily embrace it. All through the film the main character is existing as a victim, through the loss of his wife and the pursuit of the wolves. It's only in the final scene do we see him finally turn and face his demons.
Loved this, really needed this right now. May God continue to bless your ministry Bishop Barron.
Fr. Barron your insights have changed my perspective on life. Thank you!
Great story and great analysis Fr Barron!
I'm a stone cold atheist screenwriter, and I love your thoughtful insightful reviews.
Consider the Catholic Faith my friend, its not adverse to you.
Once again, great job Father Barron!
I love this analysis. Thanks so much.
When he shouted ''fuck faith, earn it'' I got goosebumps
Another great video, Fr Barron!
He had took for granted his will to live. The ending "prayer" out of desperation I argue was answered and quickly. He at that moment reflected on the last moments of his wife's life and the audience got to see that she was terminally ill. Facing death at the end staring the wolf in the face as he strapped on the broken glass bottles and held his knife in his hand was God answering his prayer giving him what he truly wanted to be reunited with his wife again.
The Grey is quite possibly my favorite movie! ever noticed how after he is swearing at God and says "Fu*k it, I can do it myself" noticed how he walks directly into the den of the Wolves?. that's cool I never even noticed that. My mom told me.
Im in tears
Father, I think the interpretation that came to mi mind was, the wolves are coming and sooner or later we all gonna die, why fight with everything you have only when your life is endangered, better to live and die in one day.
We should fight to death every single day of our lives, and appreciate our love ones to make our life more meaningful.
You see more movies than I do sir. Wow, I love it.
"In one scene, Neeson’s character -who earlier denied belief in God - challenges God, demanding help or answers. It was Neeson’s idea, Carnahan says, to pause in something very like prayer and carefully arrange objects in what seems to be a cross."
This is what I noticed: in the end Neeson's character bulds the wallets into a cross and he has his hands crossed when the wolves appear. So I don't think one can say straighforwardly he did not have faith in the end.
Great review
Pack of wolves father Barron. A group of wolves is called a pack. Love your videos!
i saw the movie twice. the second time i was so excited to see that there was that extra clip at the end. I like the way you think :)
Father, did you happen to stay through the end credits? There's one final shot right after they've finished rolling that might put a whole new spin on how you view the film.
@MegaWallaceR The Magisterium doesn't typically declare what genre specific books of the Bible conform to. In the case of Job, however, it might be helpful to consider that almost all of it is written in verse.
The whole movie going forward, all of the struggles that he and the other characters went though with the wolves was God's way of giving a non believer in Neeson's character a "Zen" journey so to speak to be forced to live in the moment and be fully alive fighting to survive, help others and to reflect on his own god given life.
To be honest, it also makes my personal suffering seem insignificant against such an infinitely complex backdrop.
@BoethianAcolyte Sometimes. By the way, who did you sacrifice to become a Boethian acolyte? I used somebody from The College. And do you know from where my name originates?
If I have the choice between two worldviews, and both are consistent with the evidence that I see, and one gives dispair and absurdity while the ofther gives hope and significance to my life and my choices, I will choose the latter. It makes sense for me to be a Christian, dispite the difficulties.
@filthyswit Sure. I see lots of movies, but once in a while a particular film strikes me as worthy of a deeper commentary.
Great!
Fair enough.
I'm interested in how it did for you.
When God breaks silence and speaks "out of the windstorm" in Job (38:1-2), in this case, I find the translation in the NWT compatible with other translations and helpful:"Who is this that is obscuring counsel by words without knowledge?" Yes, there is a cosmic tour that places life in context, but notice also there is a reassuring counsel that the mind that has not yet moved to the heart obscures. This fits perfectly the first instruction of Jesus: "Metanoia te." (Repent/Move your mind).
Is this not about the second temptation in the desert? Preform a miracle and I will become a believer.
His 180 degree turn around from no will to live to fighting for his life and only wanting that I believe was his test to enter heaven. There is also a post credit picture of Neeson laying next to the collapsed bloody wolf as to leave in the mind as he even though he might have not survived , he still conquered death by facing the his inner demons conquered them and in return was given eternal life with his beloved wife.
Father, what struck me was how he kept on going back to his dieing wife who told him "Don't be afraid" I kept on thinking on the words of Christ "be not afraid." The film tells us don't be afraid because we all must die and there is nothing else, so why fear the nothing. Christ tells us be not afraid for there is something beyond this world and we shall live in the fullness of life. both gives us reasons not to fear, but one is grim and one is hope
Im not religious. but its a wonderful movie. im just sad that so many people didn't get the ending. he wanted to die. and by the end he was fighting to live. it doesn't matter how the fight would end. its thats he's fighting.
the prayer seemed very deep, similar to Job. However when he said "**** faith", I said to myself he better watch himself. Sure enough death caught up with him, although Idk if he died or not. If he would've remained humble God may have kept him alive, but its hard to tell wut happend
@blatttman I wonder if Fr. purposely timed this review for Ash Wednesday?
Hey, I enjoyed the discussion Barron, but I think you might have missed it. You contrast the rich context God presents Job with the either or (faith or atheism) seen in the film; but I believe that same context is found by our main character when lays out the wallets, ea containing a picture of a loved one. The love shared between ppl is the context and where our main character finds God. (It's a theme revisited over and over again in film.) thx!
Prayer? He put god on trail of his existence. Since there was no help or reply he figured he was on his own and always was. He basically was like fuck it I'll make it on my own there was no God
I identified keenly with John who sat by the river to die. My parents didn't seem to get that, especially not my mom. To me it was instantly identifiable. Yes, I shall sit, because I don't need to be running up and down the universe to try to control my fate. I can't control my fate like that. I can be with God though, and in that way I can see the divinity of life and that shows me all of the meanig and beauty. I would have sat very peacefully because I accept life as God's plan. I have long been done trying to manipulate reality to my will.
Does that make death any less inevitable than it was then?
Once more into the fray
Into the last good fight I will ever know
Live and die this day, live and die this day
@quantumystery When speaking of God's love in the context of punishment, the need for simplicity typically requires one speak of it as "wrath" rather than "mercy". This isn't a "spin", just a manner of speaking. In reality, though God is changeless; he doesn't react wrathfully to some acts and mercifully towards others. Rather, certain acts react, if I may make a chemical analogy, with God's loving goodness in a way that are experienced either as wrath or mercy respectively.
@dsydebot What *has* changed is that we today tend to assume that more people are invincibly ignorant than was common prior to Vatican II. This is a cultural shift, though, and not a doctrinal change.
And of course, there are plenty who simply ignore "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" altogether. They ought not be seen as representatives of Catholic teaching, though.
sounds like a cool movie
@dsydebot I am fortunate enough to be well read in the Catholic theology prior to Vatican II. Whatever you were learning at the popular level, Catholic theologians have always acknowledged invincible ignorance prevents nonbelievers or material heretics from being responsible for sins against faith. E.g., search Google Books for "Charity and Truth" by Edward Hawarden.
what's your favorite movie?
Father, you didn't sit through the credits,because their is a great tease from the Director
was this God's answer?
An Arthur Schopenhauer reference.... well done father!
I agree, that SHOULD be the point of every movie. It's funny how society wants everything to be so mindless now a days. Looking deeply into movies SHOULD be the enjoyment of the film in and of itself. Don't be too afraid to think and question especially the most controversial thoughts, because that's the best way to grow as a person and as a society. That's not just my belief, it's been the belief of the most intelligent and influential members of our history.
@BrotherWoody1 your question is irrelevant ... ! check all videos in channel
He didn't have to say wolves every time. He could have just said death. Most people aren't gonna be caught in the wilderness, their gonna be hospitals, retirement homes, car accidents, house fires, and other things in cities and suburban areas.
He does call him a bear who lies in wait and traps Job.
3:12 3:34 5:39 5:49 5:59 The time gaps was his big schpeel about Job. Which is about a penny credit.
Biblical parallels are fun.
Father Barron, do you ever watch a movie for pure enjoyment and not look too deeply into it? Not that there's anything wrong with it. Just curious.
@infernocanuck It is actually possible to demonstrate that the intellectual soul is indestructible by virtue of being indivisible. Such a demonstration wouldn't prove that we go on to either a life of blessedness of damnation, but it is a start, anyway.
In fact, Carnahan is perfectly comfortable with ambiguity: “I think if you’re an atheist, you look at the film and you say ‘He didn’t believe in God.’ If you’re a Christian: ‘100% he believed in God.’ I like that. I that like those things coexist. I’m a hell of a lot more interested to hear people talking to me about the film than for me to be telling them about the movie.”
Thats a quote from the Direector. So I guess that explains all these opposing views. He was also raised Catholic btw
@F0rtysxity I agree. But the main character never knew God even tho he was always with him.
Father you should comment on the movie "Machinegun peacher," based on the life of Sam Childers.
Just takin er easy in the jacket...
Go get 'em wolves, go get 'em.
Well, it did in my case.
@FranciscoSmirsley here we have a warwolf who knows all about it... lovely -_- !
When I saw the movie my analysis is that when Liam Neeson's character was going to commit suicide in the beginning of the movie and the howl of the wolf stopped him. In a way that was God's way of saving him from committing suicide (and perhaps prayers from his wife in heaven) and face the possibility of him not being reunited with his deceased wife that would have been the tragic end, the devil (his inner demons) winning the battle for his soul as he lost the will to live.
I felt it subtly defied the gloomy finality of the last scene, where Neeson recites the poem before fighting the wolf. Instead of merely ending with the solemn blackness of the credits, we're given this spooky, lingering, ambiguous image...which alone implies there's something beyond the absoluteness of death.
That's what I took from it, anyway.
@quantumystery God actively remains Himself (He must, because he is immutable). One of the results of that act of remaining Himself is the damnation of those who reject him. In that sense it is perfectly true to say that God sends people to Hell. The language used prior to Vatican II was correct. The difference is due looking at the "mechanisms" from the perspective of human experience, instead of from the perspective of divine simplicity. Human language is limited.
Each character carries a certain guilt or trauma from their past lives and and face it at death in the form of the chasing pack .
@infernocanuck Don't we use evidence or it's lack as sufficient warrant to conclude, at least, a reasonable probability? If we haven't evidence of an existing thing-a-ma-jig, is it probable that it exists outside of our imagination? We could create it & its facticity would then not be probable but actual. Because the evidence of eternal life is lacking, what's the probability of it existing? Certainty about the afterlife isn't possible but probability based on evidence is.
What's your point?
Wolves don't herd, they pack you lovely priest.
A moving about the book of Job? Try A Serious Man, it's pretty close.
God was Job's problem showing the doubter how much he was loved despite feast or famine is the height of ungodly vanity
@GodFamilyCountryCorp Well he did warn you that it has spoliers in it.
@quantumystery Eternal punishment is a direct result of God's unconditional love.
Only a coward go wimpering into the night. Life is a struggle to survive against all odds so the only way for life to end is like how life starts, with a roar and a kick.
"A sacred secret" is hardly an alternative to the daily suffering that's our lot. It's hardly a consolation to situate oneself in the grand design where one's efforts can do absolutely nothing. Doesn't "This is the way it is" allude to a faulty designer? Either/Or seems a more preferable & logical view. God eventually rewarded Job for his faithfulness while most of us aren't as we then must either "go gentle" or "rage." Would Fr. still believe in God if he found out that there's no eternal life?
You were correct until the last line or two. He doesn't find God, its hard to say that from the ending of the movie...
@infernocanuck Because there's no evidence of it in the grand design? There's no-thing that our senses can apprehend that has a correlative nature of eternal life. Faith produces understanding without a warrant for the truth of what it understands. Articles of faith & theology seem to have little sway as man stands in the breech of life & death. Conscious dying, as the last human act, is all that an individual can reasonably hope for based on his/her own "will & representation."
That is exactly what Fr. Barron says in this video. Perhaps you didn't watch the whole thing.
I think you understand this movie more than most. I would like to talk to you about God...
we've all had that fake conversation, "SHOW ME SOMETHING REAL!!!"
I see what your saying. What I was getting at was that him making it on his own and surviving and the others dying doesn't mean there was no God in the film. Them being alive at all was a gift just as nature it self there's no supernatural event necessary to prove God. Even science points to what we can't understand such at the quantum theory that there is no meaning to the existence of a particle unless it is observed. In other words, until you see it, it doesn't exist.
just to let everyone know...if you watch after the credits...he wins the fight
No, he doesnt
Well. I am not alone. I have a family. My parents are gone. My first wife died but left an infant son. My grandchildren are babies now and we care for them. Schopenhauer's metaphor is false. "Intellectuals are intensely stupid". Wolves too care for their young. "This is the Law of the Jungle/ The Law that runs forward and back/ That the life of the pack is the wolf/ And the life of the wolf is the pack" with God waiting for us all at the end.
@filthyswit People who are thoughtful (as he is) cannot help being so.
2:18 pack not herd of wolves.
Herd of wolves
Murder of sheep
Pack of crows
Lol when I heard that I'm like, hmmmm isn't it a pack of wolves? Lol
the wolves were just used as a device in the movie, that's all.
For me the whole "grey" was there limited view of life, sadness and doubt they manifested for themselves. Ok that's a little bit out there but I still say all of his prayers where realized even if subconsciously through the love and/or prayers of his wife. He could have just shot himself in the head but like you said he died fighting therefore saving his soul.
That guy puts the majority of the kills on the wolves, instead of saying that it was nature or environmental. He acknowledges the drowning, but not the others. If The Grey was more like Jaws or The Ghost and The Darkness, then he would have a valid reason to place the blame on the wolves. But I'm betting that he would have figuratively placed the blame on God if he acknowledged the deaths are environmental. Since there's wolves in the film blame them, because they're evil.
I'm pretty sure the film fully asserted that in the context of the movie there is no god. Liams character had to survive on his own. One character spoke about how he thought them surviving the plane crash was somehow meant to be. Yet in the end they all die without making it to society. Their stories are never told. They are lost to the grey waste never to be heard again. Eventually Liams character accepts death and faces it head on. His journey was at an end but he wouldn't go without a fight.
@dsydebot I agree with you! They soul that finds itself before God without ever loving Him in life will KNOW that he rejected God in this life, and therefore must also reject him in after-life..if he didn't love God on earth, how could he ever love Him in heaven? Man knows so little about the universe,(we don't even know whats in our own seas) yet claims to have all the answers with "modern technology" & "science". It is obvious to me that "this life" is NOT where "it's at". Heaven is. WITH GOD
I just wanted some Liam Neeson wolf punching action.
to say that the message of the movie was naive existentialism is selling it short... God's ultimate design INCLUDES death and suffering. He is both alpha and omega. bitter and sweet.
This comment is of no religious or cinematic weight, but as a biologist I just want to clarify that the premise of the movie isn't that realistic. Wolves do not behave like that and doesn't really hunt humans since we aren't part of their natural prey. Of course they could have been there in a metaphorical sense (death, as mentioned), but this should be said anyway. Wolves are being killed for sport, poisoned etc in many areas around the world, no need in pouring gasoline on the raging fire.
@dsydebot In short, Hell *happens* to a damned soul because God, in his love, will not force anyone to love him. The simple result of an intellectual soul failing to love God is Hell. Hell is actively maintained by God in the same sense that two like magnetic poles push apart from one another; it is automatic and unavoidable due to the nature of the things in question.
People's prayers are answered in these situations though, as millions will testify, and if prayers are not answered there can be a whole range of Divine reasons for that. The non-answering in the movie was imaginary. One way to see it is that even an atheist will return to his original nature of believing in God when he is in desperate situations and needs help. Also note that Ottway called God a 'Fraud' which is not the type of language you expect will bring a positive response. Calling God a 'Fraud' can also reveal that a person does in fact believe in God but is angry at God for His plan or that they consider God has made false promises. But these false promises are in the eyes of one who has followed a man-made conception of the Attributes and Acts of God. God did not tell people that that there will be no death or difficulties in this life, the earth is not paradise.
wolves are in packs not herds.
wikipedia ... the font of all knowledge.
did you not notice the word "certain" ?
"pronoun
1.some but not all."
any dictionary in existence.
"A lone wolf howls to attract the attention of his pack, while communal howls may send territorial messages from one pack to another." ... "Wolves live and hunt in packs of around six to ten animals." ... "Wolfpacks are established according to a strict hierarchy, with a dominant male at the top and his mate not far behind. Usually this male and female are the only animals of the pack to breed. All of a pack's adults help to care for young pups by bringing them food and watching them while others hunt."
national geographic.
www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/g/gray-wolf/
wolves do NOT travel in "herds."
period.
wolves travel in "packs."
period.
I can't believe you said "herd of wolves." It's pack of wolves, see?
TO BE CLEAR, GOD DID HELP HIM, HE RECEIVED THE COURAGE TO BATTLE THE ALPHA MALE WOLF. AND AFTER THE CREDITS FINISH ROLLING THERE IS A SCENE WHERE THEY SHOW THE WOLF DEAD!