Well done Paul. However, I am a little bit shocked that you agreed to wait from '78 until the last man standing, before releasing the true story. What a gentleman the survivor was. Shame on the lack of integrity of Hoagie.
The Sea Fury was the son of the Tempest. Me 262 pilots regarded the Tempest as their most dangerous opponent. Sea Fury versus MiG was just history repeating itself.
raypurchase No big deal with the Sea Fury as the P51 Mustang was credited with 120 of the Me262's and the p47 25 !! if the sea fury could not get to where the Me262's were, over Berlin it did not matter, in Korea F51's got Migs as did the F4U Corsair and theF82 the twin Mustang got the first one !!!
Thank you, I enjoyed that very much! Many thanks to Brian, the pilot for his dedicated service. What a fantastic fighter plane. Boy you Brits made some fantastic aircraft! And took it to the Nazis and the commies. Bravo, well done!
Wow, for so many years I have repeatedly read that Carmichael was credited. Good to know the truth. As naval aviation vet myself I wish I was more surprised....
You are right about the self-effacing nature of pilots of that time. My (now deceased) brother in law flew a B25 during the war, and was always very laid back about it. The high altitude on oxygen and the horrific noise levels in the B25 made him as deaf as a post. Great chap....
oh please..This is about Fleet Air Arm operations ..how come videos like these always get hijacked by Yanks ,Yes many people of different nationalities flew in planes during the war.. So what if your brother in law flew in a B25 .. This is not about Yanks or B25's It is not always about you big headed Yanks you know !
@@kittyhawk9707 There is stuff from Americans that I don't like but your comment is just cheap. He is not doing the RAF or Fleet Air Arm Down he is just talking about a relatives experience. Please show some decency.
@Incog Nito No.2 Group RAF (Bomber Command) used the Mitchell II's (B-25C and D models) in the ETO, with 98, 180, 226 and 329 Squadrons and No. 13 OTU but later also 320(Dutch) and 342 (Free French) Squadron RAF used Mitchel II's. It was also used in the Far East by 681 and 684 Squadron RAF (as Photo recon plane). Both RCAF (only for training) and RAAF No 2 and No 18 Squadron RAAF also used the B-25. All B-25 models considered about 900 went into service with the RAF, 162 with the RCAF and about 150 with the RAAF.
I remember seeing Guido Zuccolli doing a barrel Roll over Darwin Northern Territory in the mid to late 1980's. such a magnificent sight and a magical sound!
From over here across the pond, i do love the British perchance for understatement...we dont rock the boat...but Smoo's statment, WE got OUR mig was priceless.Good show chaps
It's a pity that Carmichael did not have the morals or honesty to admit he was not responsible for shooting down the Mig. Not a very Officer-like quality in my book
@@plinnytheother6107 That was NOT the standard at the time... though, from what you've written, I accept it would probably have been your standard at that, or indeed any other, time.
My grandad was on the engine development team at Bristol. Always loved listening to him in the old days about this aircraft and engine. Thanks for sharing.
Was aware of Lt. Carmichael's kill but never knew of Lt. Ellis'! As always stated, "It's not the size of dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!". Calm execution of training! Sad to think of the situation involved. Many thanx 👍👍
@@ramal5708 eh, A-10s just look bland. Rare type of engine placement and vertical stabilizer, but overall just looks normal. Probably because I’ve learned about some weird and bad looking aircraft.
As a Coy Co, I always was quick to give credit to my men - even though I'd be the one possibly getting the glory. Nothing builds loyalty like that! Support your men, stand up for them and they return the favour. I think the Flt Ldr should have admitted who shot it down - under the scheme of things, he'd be the one taking the glory - he'd get the gong but the Flt Lt would have got the kill. Poor sport old chap!
Smoo was lucky but he was more importantly GOOD the definition of luck is where opportunity and preparation collide. Smoo WAS prepared and he was good!
I have seen a list of Russian Communist Fighter Pilots that were 'ordered' to North Korea. Some scored kills against US aircraft. As they were forbidden to fly south of the front lines, None that were shot down ever had their bodies captured and identified as evidence.
George Baker of American Aero Services in New Smyrna Beach Florida restored a Sea Fury. Gorgeous big bird. George called his a sky fury because he replaced the original engine with one from a sky raider.
Such an awesome aircraft! Epitome of operational piston fighter developement. . . . US P38 Ace Richard Bong was known to credid his wingmen for shootdowns that he probably did according to accompioning pilots. I always like listening to the Brits understated remininces though, often with subtle humor in the telling.
@Aviators Lounge - have a cupper and enjoy the show. Just found this channel and I eagerly await Winkle's bit. Schmoo is a hero with a cute name. No gun cameras?
Indeed. Great Pilot. Although they are slightly different manoeuvres and the Scissors was developed a year or 18 months before the US entered the war ( After 829 days).
@@realMaverickBuckley YOUR European war was NOT our war until we were attacked and then both Germany and Japan learned to regret that silly move as they awakened a sleeping giant industrial country that just out produced both in war material !! !
Humility is the most attractive level to approach the truth with. Its a beautiful ego that is content. Calming. Appropriate to the limit of the human mind and spirit.
The engine of the Sea Fury does not push the plane along it pulls it along but cutting through air. The good old Sea Fury was a great replacement for the duties of Hawker Typhoon which was equally equipped.
Why did Sea Furies not have gun cameras? And what about honour? It is part of service mythology that British officers are men of honour, and don't tell lies or take credit for something that somebody else has done. If this account is accurate, Carmichael was letting the side down in a big way. I have never heard of such a thing happening in the RAF, which always made an effort to establish who was responsible for a kill, and to this end were greatly assisted by gun cameras. Sometimes a kill was shared, which is fair enough if two pilots had fired at it. In the event that the gun cameras had shown one pilot's rounds hitting a pile of sand, I don't think he would have been credited with half of another pilot's kill.
Sea Fury was in Royal Navy (RN) service, this story is about the RN Fleet Air Arm, totally different customs to the RAF. I would think that a person who has been making a living as a historian/author would know of what he speaks.
@@JohnHill-qo3hb Re: A 'historian/author knowing of what he speaks', it's not necessarily so. Sometimes people speak/write erroneously - with or without deliberation. In this particular instance it appears (to me at least) that the 'historian' is somewhat afraid of 'rocking the boat' (aircraft carrier!), rather than calling a spade a spade. Wrt the historian's so called 'standard at the time', had that been so, i.e., the kill being credited to the flight leader - as a standard, there'd have been no need for Carmichael to rid his plane of some ammo (into sand); unless, that is, Carmichael had premeditatedly resolved to cheat... and cheating is never a standard, no matter what a historian (Lord preserve us!) may claim by way of 'mealy mouthed' words. Maybe the historian should have used "convention" rather than standard, though even so the reality, as far as I'm concerned, would still be that Carmichael cheated - and I for one wouldn't have wanted to play poker with him, as he'd probably be one to claim not just to have all of the aces, but to be them!
Too much was made of the “big cannon” on the MiG. It was a 37mm with a very low muzzle velocity in company with a pair of 23mm. The 37mm was intended for use against bombers and was effective against our B29s, muzzle velocity was too low for effective use against fighters.
JC ..................I remember an article 40 + yrs ago stating the problem with cannons in WW 2 and Korea was a slow cycling rate , hence the late intro on the F 86s ????
@@dannycalley7777 I had always read that, at least for the RAF. The reason they were not widely used sooner, was that they would often malfunction after a few rounds and it would be next to impossible to clear a jam in the air. They were crammed into spaces that weren't originally designed with 20mm cannons in mind.
Seems like their system was set up to give out medals to the wrong pilots. I can't think of anything that would impact morale more than to award the wrong pilots medals for combat action.
@@vadimpm1290 If by "Turning the thumbs down" you mean joking about people who disliked the video, then you didn't explain why. You gave an example of a kill that was needlessly bestowed upon a pilot.
? At the same time the US stabbed the UK in the back by pulling out of all joint projects from Manhattan to the MACH1 challenge... Not until they benefitted from Radar, Jets and the plans for MACH1 capable aircraft... PS I love the US but pisses me off when people have a myopic view and try to rewrite the UK out of facts...
@@seanjohnson7693 Indeed. Its the government rather than the people (as you know). Looks like Biden is about to starve Britain now too due to opting to follow the will of the people. I hope not but I fear our long relationship may come to an end with Biden choosing to side with zee Germans and Ursula Von de Leyen rather than the Brits.
That’s fascinating, my Father flew Fury’s in the 50s and always had a love for the plane, I nearly bought a signed copy of a print at Yeovilton as a youngster of the kill, glad the truth has come out!!
@@PlaneHunters John Smith, who stored the aircraft in his barn, died last year. His farm is at Mapua, near Nelson. His collection wasn't well known outside aviation circles and when the barn was opened and the Aladdin's Cave of aviation treasures seen for the first time there was suddenly a lot of public interest. The Mosquito has gone to the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre, at Blenheim, for restoration to display condition. Being New Zealand's Mosquito experts, some of the AvSpecs guys at Ardmore came down to help the Omaka people with the dismantling and transport of the aircraft. The P51 has gone to Ohakea, where Brendon Deere will restore it to flying condition. There were at least two other aircraft in the barn, that I know of: a Harvard and a famous RNZAF P40, that flew in the Pacific, before being returned to NZ. I haven't heard what will happen to them, but, no doubt, someone has something in mind. Mr Smith also had a Lockheed Hudson which I saw in a hangar at the Classic fighters Omaka 2019 air show. It now features in the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre's "Dangerous Skies" exhibition ( www.omaka.org.nz ). Free plug: if anyone reading this is ever in Blenheim, the Aviation Heritage Centre museum is a great place to visit.
Bit pedantic,surely. The airframe distributes force and loads in many ways, so it is arguable that the forward loading is transmitted from the tail since the airframe and the power plant comprise one cohesive whole.
A relative of mine, Wing Commander Paul Bingham Elwell, was a mosquito pilot during WW2, on one occasion tangled with 5 FW 109s over the Cherbourg peninsular, and shot one of them down, only breaking off when he ran out of ammo. I have not come across any other descriptions of mosquitos in dog fights. Do you guys know of any other such events please?
Brave man, I believe they were encouraged to avoid turning dogfights against the 109 and use the mosquitos speed advantage to gun and run, he must have been nearly tearing his wings off!
Wing commander wow. I thought I'd read about the Banff strike wing tangling with fighter's. I found this.. January 11 1945. Mixed strike force of fourteen Mosquito’s from Banff and eighteen Beaufighters from Dallachy flew an armed strike to Flekkefjord to attack shipping reported there. Whilst preparing for the strike they were intercepted from the North by approx. six ME 109s and FW 190s, while at the same time at Lister airfield a similar group of fighters took off and attacked the formation from the South. Luring the engagement various dog fights ensued which finished when the enemy fighters climbed into cloud cover. Three enemy fighters were seen to be shot down, Flight Lieutenant M. Russel DFC, and another Mosquito crew sharing a claim in destroying a ME 109. A further German fighter was claimed as a probable. The strike wing lost two aircraft, a Beaufighter and Mosquito "M" of 143 squadron, which did not return from the strike although it was ‘not seen to be shot down’.The crew of this plane were; Flight Sergeant P.C.L. Smoolenaers (Belgium) and his navigator Flight Sergeant W.W. Harris (RAAF) both reported missing. This was one of the rare occasions when, the six pounder ‘Molins gun’, of the MK XVIII (Tsetse) Mosquito’s belonging to 248 squadron, was fired in air-to-air combat, normally it was used for anti-shipping strikes.
@@David.Bobson That's very interesting, thanks for the information, I imagine that if the Tsetse Mosquito fired at any aircraft and hit it, the enemy 'plane would have just been blown apart instantly.
Capt. Jesse Folmar got a mig 15 on Sept 10 1952 flying a F4U corsair! The Royal Navy loved F4u's as they were the standard fighter till the Sea Fury started production.
The ran operating from hmas sydney had these on deck in Korea they were very successful then they were replaced with nxt generation ie gannets& sea venom fighters then A4- skyhawks!!
1946/7 the Labour government sold dozens of the Nene jet engines to Russia on the condition that they use them for civilian purposes only. Russia immediately put them into their Mig15 design, gave the jets to NK and allied pilots lost their lives in droves. Labour has a history of helping enemies when Britain has been at war.
@Gazza Boo Oh yes. Take the Falklands. The BBC told the Argentinians to change their bomb fuses as they were passing straight through the ships. After this several ships were sunk and British forces killed or badly burned. The BBC also warned Argentina of a pending attack on Goose Green which allowed them to reinforce the garrison increasing casualties. To top it all a Labour MP (Ted Rowlands) announced in Parliament that the UK was able to read Argentinean codes resulting in them changing them. He was then made a Life Peer by the Labour Government in 2004 as a reward for his actions. They are more than untrustworthy along with the BBC.
the loss rate between the reds and the allies in air combat was 12 to 1 in favour of the allies The mig 15 was an excellent aircraft however their pilots were not especially when facing F 86 s
We have our own version of these "Red" traitors called democrats, many good men died because they would sell out their own country before you could say jack Robinson.
Good kill Smooth, Hoagy better check his guns on a mig 15 than a beach, next time... First hand intelligence here "Those stripes make the furies really easy to see" Always held the sea fury in high esteem. Even higher today ! What a plane...
Chuck Yeager said, the best pilot wins not with the best aircraft. No BS Oh an American F4U Corsair managed to shot down a MiG-15 as well during the war
Peter Carmichael was my C/O in Sea Cadets in the 80s, I did some research on his plane and found out from some contacts in Australia where it was, seems it was part of an airshow but the owner didn't pay his taxes
He might have described the scissor movement a bit more clearly. Like which pair go on the outside of the other pair. How do they form up when they get behind their target??
Marvelous video thank you, but we must bear in mind who authorised the sale of the jet engine to Russia that powered the Mig ,none other than labours Sir Stafford cripps, gosh we seem to breed daft politicians !
Well Anthony .. wow we have an expert in aerial combat with us .. pray tell how many Me163's have you shot down?. Seen as you think it is easy .. shooting pixels whilst playing IL2 on your playstaion while filling your fat face with pretzels does make it easy .. Actual combat is very different.
So basically the noob Mig pilot with two left eyes that couldn't hit a barn door from the inside then went on and turned an unfair fight into a fair fight by completely disgarding his jets speed advantage by using the air breaks and also then sitting in front of 4 20mm cannons... ya I'm pretty sure that wasn't in the Mig training text book of tactics lol 😂
The guy probably engaged his air brakes in an attempt to remain behind the Sea Fury when he realized he'd soon overshoot. His mistake was when he overshot anyway, he didn't withdraw them immediately and peel away (or dive) but 'froze' and just kept flying in front of the Fury's gun sights.
Well... i guess old Hoag was not as innocent as might seem. As he hadn't made any shot (as it seems fro the amorers assessment) then his ammo would have unused. So that peel-off to practice on the sandbar was a way to make sure he didnt return to ship with ammo still full! If that had happended there would have been no chance he coudl have been included in the credit for the kill.
Well done Paul. However, I am a little bit shocked that you agreed to wait from '78 until the last man standing, before releasing the true story. What a gentleman the survivor was. Shame on the lack of integrity of Hoagie.
The Sea Fury was the son of the Tempest.
Me 262 pilots regarded the Tempest as their most dangerous opponent.
Sea Fury versus MiG was just history repeating itself.
Sea Fury, son of Tempest, I like that expression :)
Tempest, son of Typhoon
Typhoon, son of Hurricane
@@Johnny-Thunder Subsonic Harrier versus Argentine Mach 2 fighter jets.
Kicking arse runs in the family.
@@raypurchase801 The Hawker dynasty is a glorious one indeed.
raypurchase No big deal with the Sea Fury as the P51 Mustang was credited with 120 of the Me262's and the p47 25 !! if the sea fury could not get to where the Me262's were, over Berlin it did not matter, in Korea F51's got Migs as did the F4U Corsair and theF82 the twin Mustang got the first one !!!
@@wilburfinnigan2142The Sea Fury wasn't introduced until after WWII, so it was quite unlikely to fight 262s, even while flying over Berlin.
Thank you, I enjoyed that very much! Many thanks to Brian, the pilot for his dedicated service. What a fantastic fighter plane. Boy you Brits made some fantastic aircraft! And took it to the Nazis and the commies. Bravo, well done!
What BS from the Hierarchy and Hoag. Great to hear the truth from the real MiG Killer; as opposed to a 'Killer' of Sand Bars!
@Keanu Kalel Hey, did you know that you and Vicente Andres joined youtube the exact same day! What a coincidence! /s
Wow, for so many years I have repeatedly read that Carmichael was credited. Good to know the truth. As naval aviation vet myself I wish I was more surprised....
Good one chaps, always glad to listen to Paul putting History right!
Thanks David
You are right about the self-effacing nature of pilots of that time. My (now deceased) brother in law flew a B25 during the war, and was always very laid back about it. The high altitude on oxygen and the horrific noise levels in the B25 made him as deaf as a post. Great chap....
oh please..This is about Fleet Air Arm operations ..how come videos like these always get hijacked by Yanks ,Yes many people of different nationalities flew in planes during the war.. So what if your brother in law flew in a B25 .. This is not about Yanks or B25's It is not always about you big headed Yanks you know !
@@kittyhawk9707 British people have a hard time not getting triggered by people opinions
@@kittyhawk9707 There is stuff from Americans that I don't like but your comment is just cheap. He is not doing the RAF or Fleet Air Arm Down he is just talking about a relatives experience. Please show some decency.
Calm down silly bollocks.
@Incog Nito No.2 Group RAF (Bomber Command) used the Mitchell II's (B-25C and D models) in the ETO, with 98, 180, 226 and 329 Squadrons and No. 13 OTU but later also 320(Dutch) and 342 (Free French) Squadron RAF used Mitchel II's. It was also used in the Far East by 681 and 684 Squadron RAF (as Photo recon plane). Both RCAF (only for training) and RAAF No 2 and No 18 Squadron RAAF also used the B-25. All B-25 models considered about 900 went into service with the RAF, 162 with the RCAF and about 150 with the RAAF.
I remember seeing Guido Zuccolli doing a barrel Roll over Darwin Northern Territory in the mid to late 1980's. such a magnificent sight and a magical sound!
If Hoagey was a decent leader, he would have seen to it that credit went to where it was due.
From over here across the pond, i do love the British perchance for understatement...we dont rock the boat...but Smoo's statment, WE got OUR mig was priceless.Good show chaps
😅 👏
* penchant.
@@usernamesreprise4068 in the imortal words of that great American thinker, Archie Bunker, whateva.
@@JamesThomas-gg6il Ha ha was "he" a linguistic artisan too ? by the way it was a helpful correction to a possible typo not a put down.
@@usernamesreprise4068 oh yeah i got that, thanks. My skin isnt that thin.
What a Gent, "We got our kill"... No sir... You got the kill..
Hoagie's family must feel terribly ashamed and embarrassed.
I wish for their sakes he had been honest.
Well done Shmoo!
Thank you for a fantastic walk down history’s lane...
It's a pity that Carmichael did not have the morals or honesty to admit he was not responsible for shooting down the Mig. Not a very Officer-like quality in my book
Too right, what a shitty officer.
@@casinodelonge Pretty poor standards.
that was the standard at the time, you idiots would come their standards today so shut up
@@plinnytheother6107 No, poor behavior by an officer would be called out by any rank. 'So shut up'.
@@plinnytheother6107 That was NOT the standard at the time... though, from what you've written, I accept it would probably have been your standard at that, or indeed any other, time.
My grandad was on the engine development team at Bristol. Always loved listening to him in the old days about this aircraft and engine. Thanks for sharing.
Great engine!
Great story and nice to hear from the man himself, pity he couldn’t have a fly in the sea fury.
Well done for a super pilot[BRIAN] !!
Was aware of Lt. Carmichael's kill but never knew of Lt. Ellis'! As always stated, "It's not the size of dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!". Calm execution of training! Sad to think of the situation involved. Many thanx 👍👍
God, those Sea Furies just look right!
The best looking (and best sounding) piston plane ever.
You know what they say - If it looks right it probably is right.
The A-10s are ugly mofos but they got the job right as well. They sound nice as well
@@ramal5708 eh, A-10s just look bland. Rare type of engine placement and vertical stabilizer, but overall just looks normal. Probably because I’ve learned about some weird and bad looking aircraft.
@@HeidiLandRover P51 MUSTANG say hold my beer !!!!!
Truth needs to be out there it’s there well done Smoo.
Gosh, all of the piston fighters coming from late-late WWII are beautiful. Late-mark 190, Sea Fury, Bearcat, Tigercat.
What a great video. I can’t wait to read some of Paul’s material!
Brilliant video. Thank you for telling us this story.
There was a Douglas Skyraider in Viet Nam that shot down a Mig too
It's was a double in 1 instance.
@@michaelgautreaux3168 THEY still shot the B@$t@rd down !!!!!
Brilliant content! Many thanks gentlemen.
As a Coy Co, I always was quick to give credit to my men - even though I'd be the one possibly getting the glory. Nothing builds loyalty like that! Support your men, stand up for them and they return the favour. I think the Flt Ldr should have admitted who shot it down - under the scheme of things, he'd be the one taking the glory - he'd get the gong but the Flt Lt would have got the kill. Poor sport old chap!
I'm not a plane fan but I did enjoy this interview and story, it's little extra stories that are worth listening too
Cheers from North Carolina 👍 Well done, Sir & Much respect
Beautiful aircraft. Fine gentlemen who flew them.
Two North Vietnamese MiG-17’s were shot down by A-1 Skyraider prop driven air-to-ground attack planes using 20mm cannon. (1965 & 1966)
The A-1 is also an insane aircraft.
What was amazing is that the A-1 Skyraider's cannons were not optimised for air to air combat.
@@MichaelWilliams-mo1vv - that’s why an A-1 Skyraider shooting down a Mig-17 (TWICE) is a much more impressive feat.
The A1 didn't even have an air to air gunsight ,quite an achievement.
@@sebastianjohansen2142 A-1 was a huge bomb and rocket carrying ground attack aircraft
Smoo was lucky but he was more importantly GOOD the definition of luck is where opportunity and preparation collide. Smoo WAS prepared and he was good!
Lovely story, and the facts explained,
It is accepted these days and admitted by the Russians that Soviet Mig 15 pilots flew in combat in the Korean War; experienced WW2 pilots, some aces.
I have seen a list of Russian Communist Fighter Pilots that were 'ordered' to North Korea. Some scored kills against US aircraft. As they were forbidden to fly south of the front lines, None that were shot down ever had their bodies captured and identified as evidence.
George Baker of American Aero Services in New Smyrna Beach Florida restored a Sea Fury. Gorgeous big bird. George called his a sky fury because he replaced the original engine with one from a sky raider.
edwinbest yep had to get a decent engine in it to get it airborne !!! !
When i was working in a development department i always said to people if you have an idea, make sure you have audience when you announce it.
Such an awesome aircraft! Epitome of operational piston fighter developement. . . . US P38 Ace Richard Bong was known to credid his wingmen for shootdowns that he probably did according to accompioning pilots. I always like listening to the Brits understated remininces though, often with subtle humor in the telling.
@Aviators Lounge - have a cupper and enjoy the show. Just found this channel and I eagerly await Winkle's bit. Schmoo is a hero with a cute name. No gun cameras?
Good for putting the story straight
What a character,
I hope he puts a air victory cross on his car door, since he was evicted from it .
Very pleasing story of belated correct attribution. Somewhat annoying that hierarchy dictated otherwise for too many years.
That sort of thing went on across the board during and after WW2, look what they did to Alan Turing..
The Scissor is another name for the Thatch weave developed by a US aviator John S. Thach in the pacific theater in WWII
Indeed. Great Pilot. Although they are slightly different manoeuvres and the Scissors was developed a year or 18 months before the US entered the war ( After 829 days).
@@realMaverickBuckley YOUR European war was NOT our war until we were attacked and then both Germany and Japan learned to regret that silly move as they awakened a sleeping giant industrial country that just out produced both in war material !! !
Classic British understatement from the pilot..ding dong old chap
What a team player Brian teaches us a great lesson.
Humility is the most attractive level to approach the truth with. Its a beautiful ego that is content. Calming. Appropriate to the limit of the human mind and spirit.
lucky burst from smoo! well done HMAS Sydney serving alongside HMS Ocean with sea furies and fireflies on board-ex majestic class carrier
Lucky? He knew the exact shell that would hit and exactly where it would hit the MiG.
Bridge anyone?
The engine of the Sea Fury does not push the plane along it pulls it along but cutting through air. The good old Sea Fury was a great replacement for the duties of Hawker Typhoon which was equally equipped.
Why did Sea Furies not have gun cameras? And what about honour? It is part of service mythology that British officers are men of honour, and don't tell lies or take credit for something that somebody else has done. If this account is accurate, Carmichael was letting the side down in a big way. I have never heard of such a thing happening in the RAF, which always made an effort to establish who was responsible for a kill, and to this end were greatly assisted by gun cameras. Sometimes a kill was shared, which is fair enough if two pilots had fired at it. In the event that the gun cameras had shown one pilot's rounds hitting a pile of sand, I don't think he would have been credited with half of another pilot's kill.
Sea Fury was in Royal Navy (RN) service, this story is about the RN Fleet Air Arm, totally different customs to the RAF. I would think that a person who has been making a living as a historian/author would know of what he speaks.
@@JohnHill-qo3hb Re: A 'historian/author knowing of what he speaks', it's not necessarily so. Sometimes people speak/write erroneously - with or without deliberation. In this particular instance it appears (to me at least) that the 'historian' is somewhat afraid of 'rocking the boat' (aircraft carrier!), rather than calling a spade a spade. Wrt the historian's so called 'standard at the time', had that been so, i.e., the kill being credited to the flight leader - as a standard, there'd have been no need for Carmichael to rid his plane of some ammo (into sand); unless, that is, Carmichael had premeditatedly resolved to cheat... and cheating is never a standard, no matter what a historian (Lord preserve us!) may claim by way of 'mealy mouthed' words. Maybe the historian should have used "convention" rather than standard, though even so the reality, as far as I'm concerned, would still be that Carmichael cheated - and I for one wouldn't have wanted to play poker with him, as he'd probably be one to claim not just to have all of the aces, but to be them!
Of course they had gun cameras- why no reference to that?
This is a very informative,and nice story. I'm very happy the nice gentleman got credit for his true story of what he did.
Incredible story.
Bad form, Hogie, bad form.
Too much was made of the “big cannon” on the MiG. It was a 37mm with a very low muzzle velocity in company with a pair of 23mm. The 37mm was intended for use against bombers and was effective against our B29s, muzzle velocity was too low for effective use against fighters.
JC ..................I remember an article 40 + yrs ago stating the problem with cannons in WW 2 and Korea was a slow cycling rate , hence the late intro on the F 86s ????
@@dannycalley7777 I had always read that, at least for the RAF. The reason they were not widely used sooner, was that they would often malfunction after a few rounds and it would be next to impossible to clear a jam in the air.
They were crammed into spaces that weren't originally designed with 20mm cannons in mind.
Didn’t the Sea Furies have gun cameras to verify kills? Or was that also not the done thing?
That was my thought too...
Yes, they have gun cameras.
Not all kills are on-boresight-camera-axis kills.
I would think the gun camera image for Carmichael didn't show a MIG...
My understanding is that a kill is verified by gun camera recording or eye witnesses able to collaborate the claim.
With a flight leader like this Hoagy fellow, who needs enemies?
Seems like their system was set up to give out medals to the wrong pilots. I can't think of anything that would impact morale more than to award the wrong pilots medals for combat action.
They never learned that you dont under estimate a british pilot in a obsolete aircraft. Swordfish punched way above its weight in the second world war
Is that you, Corporal Jones ?
@@DavidOfWhitehills They don't like it up em
Outstanding! Thank you.
Were the thumbs down from ex Mig pilots??
that and the socialist simps
Why? If it's true, it had been an occasion. It happens. Even Po-2 had once "downed" Bf-109 by manoevring.
@@vadimpm1290 I think you have the wrong comment
@@kem9952 I've just said there's no need to turn the tumbs down and explained why.
@@vadimpm1290 If by "Turning the thumbs down" you mean joking about people who disliked the video, then you didn't explain why. You gave an example of a kill that was needlessly bestowed upon a pilot.
"russians supplied north korea with their latest fighter" well they gave them german wings with a british engine but whatever
That’s the British Labour Party for you.
Keep on comforting yourself.
? At the same time the US stabbed the UK in the back by pulling out of all joint projects from Manhattan to the MACH1 challenge... Not until they benefitted from Radar, Jets and the plans for MACH1 capable aircraft... PS I love the US but pisses me off when people have a myopic view and try to rewrite the UK out of facts...
@@seanjohnson7693 Indeed. Its the government rather than the people (as you know). Looks like Biden is about to starve Britain now too due to opting to follow the will of the people. I hope not but I fear our long relationship may come to an end with Biden choosing to side with zee Germans and Ursula Von de Leyen rather than the Brits.
@@strontiumstargazer3124 more specifically, the work of Victor Rothschild, who was the main fifth column for the Soviets.
Me @ 21 years old, Mk1 cortina, This Legend @ 21, Hawker Sea Fury and a Mig.
That’s fascinating, my Father flew Fury’s in the 50s and always had a love for the plane, I nearly bought a signed copy of a print at Yeovilton as a youngster of the kill, glad the truth has come out!!
"Rank Does not Matter" +1500 SE
Didn't they have gun cameras to confirm the kill?
I would have thought so, given that Spitfires, Hurricanes, Typhoons and Tempests were all fitted with them.
yes
Speaking of Mustangs , did you hear about the one they found in a barn living with a Mosquito in New Zealand.
Yes fascinating, looks like they gone to a good home.
@@PlaneHunters John Smith, who stored the aircraft in his barn, died last year. His farm is at Mapua, near Nelson. His collection wasn't well known outside aviation circles and when the barn was opened and the Aladdin's Cave of aviation treasures seen for the first time there was suddenly a lot of public interest.
The Mosquito has gone to the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre, at Blenheim, for restoration to display condition. Being New Zealand's Mosquito experts, some of the AvSpecs guys at Ardmore came down to help the Omaka people with the dismantling and transport of the aircraft.
The P51 has gone to Ohakea, where Brendon Deere will restore it to flying condition.
There were at least two other aircraft in the barn, that I know of: a Harvard and a famous RNZAF P40, that flew in the Pacific, before being returned to NZ. I haven't heard what will happen to them, but, no doubt, someone has something in mind.
Mr Smith also had a Lockheed Hudson which I saw in a hangar at the Classic fighters Omaka 2019 air show. It now features in the Omaka Aviation Heritage Centre's "Dangerous Skies" exhibition ( www.omaka.org.nz ).
Free plug: if anyone reading this is ever in Blenheim, the Aviation Heritage Centre museum is a great place to visit.
Did the pilot get out?
4:14 - "pushing the aircraft along" -- No, the engine PULLS the aircraft along. Pushers had the engine and prop in back.
Bit pedantic,surely. The airframe distributes force and loads in many ways, so it is arguable that the forward loading is transmitted from the tail since the airframe and the power plant comprise one cohesive whole.
FAA pilots: none finer. FLY NAVY!
A relative of mine, Wing Commander Paul Bingham Elwell, was a mosquito pilot during WW2, on one occasion tangled with 5 FW 109s over the Cherbourg peninsular, and shot one of them down, only breaking off when he ran out of ammo. I have not come across any other descriptions of mosquitos in dog fights. Do you guys know of any other such events please?
Brave man, I believe they were encouraged to avoid turning dogfights against the 109 and use the mosquitos speed advantage to gun and run, he must have been nearly tearing his wings off!
Were they FW 190’s or Bf109’s?
Wing commander wow. I thought I'd read about the Banff strike wing tangling with fighter's. I found this..
January 11 1945.
Mixed strike force of fourteen Mosquito’s from Banff and eighteen Beaufighters from Dallachy flew an armed strike to Flekkefjord to attack shipping reported there. Whilst preparing for the strike they were intercepted from the North by approx. six ME 109s and FW 190s, while at the same time at Lister airfield a similar group of fighters took off and attacked the formation from the South. Luring the engagement various dog fights ensued which finished when the enemy fighters climbed into cloud cover. Three enemy fighters were seen to be shot down, Flight Lieutenant M. Russel DFC, and another Mosquito crew sharing a claim in destroying a ME 109. A further German fighter was claimed as a probable. The strike wing lost two aircraft, a Beaufighter and Mosquito "M" of 143 squadron, which did not return from the strike although it was ‘not seen to be shot down’.The crew of this plane were; Flight Sergeant P.C.L. Smoolenaers (Belgium) and his navigator Flight Sergeant W.W. Harris (RAAF) both reported missing. This was one of the rare occasions when, the six pounder ‘Molins gun’, of the MK XVIII (Tsetse) Mosquito’s belonging to 248 squadron, was fired in air-to-air combat, normally it was used for anti-shipping strikes.
@@David.Bobson That's very interesting, thanks for the information, I imagine that if the Tsetse Mosquito fired at any aircraft and hit it, the enemy 'plane would have just been blown apart instantly.
@@timelwell7002 I agree. But probably not the best air to air weapon.
Capt. Jesse Folmar got a mig 15 on Sept 10 1952 flying a F4U corsair!
The Royal Navy loved F4u's as they were the standard fighter till the Sea Fury started production.
The Royal Navy taught the americans how to land them on carriers!
The ran operating from hmas sydney had these on deck in Korea they were very successful then they were replaced with nxt generation ie gannets& sea venom fighters then A4- skyhawks!!
I am rather surprised that there was no "gun camera" footage' had they dispensed with gun cameras on these aircraft? Thanks for sharing this.
How about a look at the PO-2 That managed to down a couple of the American jets? ;)
1946/7 the Labour government sold dozens of the Nene jet engines to Russia on the condition that they use them for civilian purposes only. Russia immediately put them into their Mig15 design, gave the jets to NK and allied pilots lost their lives in droves. Labour has a history of helping enemies when Britain has been at war.
@Gazza Boo Oh yes. Take the Falklands. The BBC told the Argentinians to change their bomb fuses as they were passing straight through the ships. After this several ships were sunk and British forces killed or badly burned. The BBC also warned Argentina of a pending attack on Goose Green which allowed them to reinforce the garrison increasing casualties. To top it all a Labour MP (Ted Rowlands) announced in Parliament that the UK was able to read Argentinean codes resulting in them changing them. He was then made a Life Peer by the Labour Government in 2004 as a reward for his actions. They are more than untrustworthy along with the BBC.
the loss rate between the reds and the allies in air combat was 12 to 1 in favour of the allies The mig 15 was an excellent aircraft however their pilots were not especially when facing F 86 s
Same government which gave us our country’s greatest institution.
We have our own version of these "Red" traitors called democrats, many good men died because they would sell out their own country before you could say jack Robinson.
@@morbidlyobese2944 you need to be in one Sunshine it was Bevan not Labour Government
Good kill Smooth, Hoagy better check his guns on a mig 15 than a beach, next time...
First hand intelligence here "Those stripes make the furies really easy to see"
Always held the sea fury in high esteem. Even higher today ! What a plane...
Chuck Yeager said, the best pilot wins not with the best aircraft. No BS
Oh an American F4U Corsair managed to shot down a MiG-15 as well during the war
Sea Fury WJ232 flown by Hoagy still exists in Australia, its been impounded due to tax evasion. So still a relic from that mission
Interesting to know.
Peter Carmichael was my C/O in Sea Cadets in the 80s, I did some research on his plane and found out from some contacts in Australia where it was, seems it was part of an airshow but the owner didn't pay his taxes
@chrisgibson … a terrible shame. Taxation is theft !
If you think you were surprised that you shot down a jet aircraft, imagine what the MiG pilot was thinking. :) Well done!
How could Brian & no.3 still be alive yet the historian kept to a gentleman's agreement to wait until there was only one left?
Time? I'm not sure i follow you?
14:57 in other words, his wingman didn't back him up, so the wingman fired a few shots into the sand in order to say he did ......
He might have described the scissor movement a bit more clearly. Like which pair go on the outside of the other pair. How do they form up when they get behind their target??
This guy does a shit job of explaining anything. Phantoms going out at Mach 2 and coming back around... Wtf? I stopped watching...
Fast planes can easily overshoot and get hit by their intended victim as they get the wrong side of the guns.
they were discussing the lineage of the plane and i was under the impression that Kurt Tank was a large part of it . Is that completely wrong ?
Bristol piston engine versus Rolls Royce jet engine, British tech in action.
"THE" Best prop driven aircraft ever.
Marvelous video thank you, but we must bear in mind who authorised the sale of the jet engine to Russia that powered the Mig ,none other than labours Sir Stafford cripps, gosh we seem to breed daft politicians !
Fleet Air Arm didn’t use gun cameras? What the heck!
Love the Sea Fury but would choose the Hornet as a matter of preference
It's not hard too short down a Me163 comet.......you just have to wait...wait for it...it out of fuel, there it goes..down
Ha ha very true!
Well Anthony .. wow we have an expert in aerial combat with us .. pray tell how many Me163's have you shot down?. Seen as you think it is easy .. shooting pixels whilst playing IL2 on your playstaion while filling your fat face with pretzels does make it easy .. Actual combat is very different.
But when it burnt its fuel it was out of sight!
She is such a lovely, beasty, aircraft.
Only need the bits with the pilot speaking. Annoying having to edit the bits with you 3 out
only the Brits could come up with a system where the flight leader gets the kill despite not being the one who shot the enemy down
The guy in the middle. Is that Derek? (Rickey Gervais}
very humble man doesn't even say he shot it down. Says they might of shot it down.
No gun cameras in the Sea Fury?
So basically the noob Mig pilot with two left eyes that couldn't hit a barn door from the inside then went on and turned an unfair fight into a fair fight by completely disgarding his jets speed advantage by using the air breaks and also then sitting in front of 4 20mm cannons... ya I'm pretty sure that wasn't in the Mig training text book of tactics lol 😂
The guy probably engaged his air brakes in an attempt to remain behind the Sea Fury when he realized he'd soon overshoot. His mistake was when he overshot anyway, he didn't withdraw them immediately and peel away (or dive) but 'froze' and just kept flying in front of the Fury's gun sights.
Superior training...
No gun camera on the Sea Fury? That could have stopped all the bother.
The first ME210 the German Jet fighter shot down during WW2, was shot down by an RAF pilot flying a Spitfire
Why no gun cameras ?
Even an obsolete aircraft can be highly dangerous in the hands of a expert pilot.
@Incog Nito And the Swordfish in WW2 and the Skyraider in Vietnam
LOL! They couldn't believe what they had done! Shot down a jet! They stood their ground!
Well... i guess old Hoag was not as innocent as might seem. As he hadn't made any shot (as it seems fro the amorers assessment) then his ammo would have unused. So that peel-off to practice on the sandbar was a way to make sure he didnt return to ship with ammo still full! If that had happended there would have been no chance he coudl have been included in the credit for the kill.