Why Don't Hollow Knight Speedrunners Use Fury of the Fallen?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
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Fury of the Fallen is a charm in Hollow Knight that increases your nail damage by 75% while you're at 1 HP and is available from the very beginning of the game, yet speedrunners in many categories don't use it. Today, I'll be breaking down why this charm is not optimal to use for these categories. I'll be focusing on No Major Glitches categories, mainly Any%, and I'll discuss individual level Pantheon speedruns and 112% APB later in the video.
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0:00 Intro
1:14 Any% Analysis
17:03 Pantheon IL Analysis
17:50 112% APB Analysis
22:43 Pantheon of God Gamers
#hollowknight #speedrun #analysis - เกม
So it's basically the Hollow Knight equivalent of Undertale's Empty Gun where an increase to damage might sound good, but it's not enough to really matter and you lose more time getting it
Additionally, gun quads ard hell to hit compared to pan quads, and pan quads allow for oneshots in geno core anyways
@@veilunveiled2931 yeah it's also harder to use
@@alexengle4942 your supposed to read comments after watching the video bozo
@@alexengle4942 well, he just saved you twenty minutes, how nice!
@@alexengle4942 how do you spoil an exposition??
One place where the "if it saved time, people would use it" principle came up is in any%/te all glitches, where you get fury for free with godhome main menu storage, and overcharming is free due to bench storage. We used to use it for both thk and radiance, but now only use it for thk, as radiance is very cycle based and fury only saves time with a very narrow slice of rng
What's rng
@@tg9521 😐
@@pekka-zg1wx It certainly isn't that emote
@@tg9521 Random number generator. Is used to denote when something is based on randomness
As a note for the 112% part of this discussion, ConstructiveCynicism has mentioned that he wants to spend time doing 112 fury pantheons when he's able to run again, having estimated the timesave at about 6 minutes. (It is also already extensively used in 112 All Glitches but that of course comes with having invulnerability for most of the sections where it comes up, and thus it's much less risky.)
Violet ? 👀
6 minutes is pretty insane. Like, that's enough to die on a boss once and still get the new WR
You have to do lifebloodless to save a worthwhile amount of time, which is awful. There are players grinding hitless 112 apb right now in early stages and eloki just completed a Hitless godseeker mode run (which is kinda just back to back R5 with only 1 absrad) so it's conceivable. There are 3-4 players in the world who can perform pantheon 5 Hitless semi consistently but all of them are godhome focused players, not speedrunners. Constructive is cracked and has a million hours in HK though, it's too bad Ax doesn't do 112, hes an insanely consistent player.
@@fink7968 And I'd imagine hitless runners kill most bosses quite fast but they aren't really looking to optimize their speed if there's any risk involved, right?
As someone who has been around in various speed running communities, I laughed when he said “some people think it’s because it’s too hard” like I’ve seen people discover a trick that saves like 3 seconds over doing it normally, and your only gonna hit it once in every dozen runs, and the HK community is more masochistic then most, I have no doubt that if fury even saved 0.1 seconds, and only if played near perfectly, HK runners would go for it
On the other hand, he did say that the reason it wasn't used in 112% speedruns was that people didn't have good enough execution yet, and so would have to go for safer, slower strategies if they used it. That's pretty much an indirect way of saying that it's not being used because it's too hard.
@@amaureaLua that’s true, but as blue said in his comment, the moment people actually start using fury strats, the catagory is going to be hell, permanently, and people like 112%, so I don’t think people are going to be using fury strats any time soon, outside of the odd top level runner seeing if he can maybe set a new WR, thankfully that hasn’t happened yet, although with that being said I wouldn’t be surprised if people try using it in P4, because if you use bindings for P1-3, you’ll have lifeblood and be able to tear through P4, although they might, don’t @ me, I don’t know the 112% route
@@dankness420 Even with Fury you probably wouldn't go for bindings in the pantheon in a speedrun. You might think going for Shell Binding (limiting HP) would work good for Fury, but as it sets it to 4, it's obnoxious to set up while overcharmed (which you probably would want to do for it, because no reason not to be when you get oneshot either way). Going with full health and getting hit 4 times is faster than getting hit once, healing, getting hit again. But you need 8 completed bindings for the first cocoon. Going for the Nail Binding will certainly result in a lower time, going for Soul Binding limits you to one spell at a time, which doesn't sound enticing but might be possible, and Charm Binding is an obvious no brainer.
So at best you could get 8 bindings AFTER beating P4 if you take Shell and Spell Bindings every time. So not really possible in a sensible speedrun category. And even if it would be possible, the first Bench would only bring you up to 4 total health (1 normal mask and 3 lifeblood) which while Overcharmed wouldn't do a whole lot for you.
@@Schilani and it goes without saying I’m guessing but the charms binding AKA no shaman/spell twister is bad, interesting, I wonder if you could incorporate nail and shell bindings to get fury in a 112 run, something like shell/nail binding for P2/3 and maybe a shell/soul/nail binding?? on P1, but then it would take 2 and 1/2 years to beat, AND that’s only 7 bindings, crist team cherry, why is lifeblood 1 so hard to get!
Great video and good points made! As a 112% runner myself, I see fury as Pandora’s Box. The second it’s opened- the category is going to be hell lol. Because of that, i hope fury pantheons will never become a thing (even though it definitely will, it is just a theoretical right now). Either way, another thing to mention is damage tank strats in pantheons as well as inventory knockback cancels for damage tanks in overworld movement
Hey I might sound dumb for asking this but why are 112% runners doing p5?? I've completed the game on 112% and p5 was not part of it. I'm just wondering.
Embrace the chaos, Blue.
@@user-db4lk7yg3o Because the category is called 112% APB (All Pantheon Bosses), so P5 is mandatory, including Zote.
@@Sirpi77 Oh okay, thanks.
@@user-db4lk7yg3o To be fair, there is some weird "pure 112%" sub-side-whatever-category, but it's pretty anticlimactic and just doesn't feel right, because you do the first four pantheons and after that get the Sealed Siblings ending. Not sure if it's even considered a valid category yet, because next to nobody does that.
I'd like a speedrun category where you start with all charms and nail upgrades, just to see what kind of builds people would use from the start to get the quickest time.
I’m pretty sure that’s just all glitches
@@tahini245 all glitches but no teleporting, wall phasing, invincibility, duping, pretty much everything
Probably a mix of quick slash, unbreakable strength, and shaman stone
Theoretically fury would be faster for any% now if you do the recently developed itemless Baldur and thus skip FK/mound entirely, but the trick is pretty much TAS-only. It's just way too many frame perfect inputs, with the timing not even being constant (it depends on the angle of the spit), plus you need to get lucky enough to get good spit angles in the first place.
Huh, I always kinda assumed that in addition to Baldur skip being agonizingly slow, the damage loss from not having VS would be too much to bear. Uumuu is prolly still fast thanks to jelly skip (since we're talking TAS only strats), but it's hard to overstate just how much time is saved having VS/Shaman's for Washer Knights and THK.
@@webbowser8834 The skip itself is relatively slow, but you'd also save a ton of time from not having to go through most of Forgotten Crossroads (though I'm not sure if Dirtmouth or hot springs bench would be faster)
@@fractalmuse True, Crossroads + Ancestral Mound takes about 3 minutes, which is a non-trivial amount of time save.
@@webbowser8834 yeah I'm thinking for a TAS you could do the aspid arena, bench & equip fury at the hot spring, then damage tank your way back up to the baldur for the itemless kill and still save well over a minute overall
Holy hell its jarlyk
He really covered everything. Pretty much every potential "But what if-" was answered. Loved to hear about the implications for different type of runs other than any%
Pure Nail + Unbrakable Strength + Fury of the Fallen = AbsRad dies in 37 hits
But good luck doing her with 1 health
I mean its the same as doing it with 2 health
@@Oscar-ek2jx well that makes a world of distance
doing her
@@normanmai7865 No.
@@animarthur5297 I would
i like to imagine he's somehow playing the background scenes without looking at the screen because he's just that good
Godhome Ending also uses fury for the early fights, but I personally need it to be able to run the extra notch route for the charm requirements :3 I'm too skill issued to use fury with soul master. and by skill issue I mean scared
Same.
Yeah, it's not like it's too difficult to do most fights without getting hit. But not getting hit somehow is just easier with 5 health compared to with 1 health.
@@Schilani yea i literaly go full panick mode when im at 1 hp and run like a bitch to try to heal
ok i'd just like to say i love these kind of videos like analysing and discussing semi obscure and in depth speedrunning topics keep it up fire!
Finally got an answer to a question I never bothered looking up. Amazing video as always Fire 🔥
For 112%, it seems a lot like SM64 120 star’s infamous carpetless. Technically saves time, people have pulled it off before, but it would be so stupid to throw away your run going for it at the very end.
you explain things so well and thoroughly. even when you're talking about information I already know, it's still enjoyable to hear you go over it. And I like how you explain details people might not know (like the spell double-hit mechanic). You're so thorough and I love that.
Hi fire I recently achieved 112 percent in hollow knight and you have been my favourite player, another great video, keep up the great work!
Congrats!
@@Spiney09 Thanks 😀
Good stuff man! You gonna try pantheon 5 now?
@@thehandler4221 Thanks, I'm scared lol
@@thehandler4221 absolute radiance scary
Really good video. Also worth noting damage tanking WK often saves a lot of time so that negates even more fury timesave, and it basically saves no time on Uumuu because it doesn't save a cycle, so its really only WK and THK timesave, and WK isn't that much.
Another side note is that 112 pantheons can save multiple minutes (much more realisticallly but still incredibly hard) with fury P1 and P2, as well as the P1 and P2 sections of P5, then not using it afterward.
I loved how in depth this video was! very interesting to learn about
Even in nohit runs sometimes players unequip fury for spell builds, so even when you're technically at 1hp permanently it's still reasonable to go for spell damage if notches allow for it better
Why not both ?
@@jajasking9652 For example, in a section where you're at 6 notches it can be better to go spell twister, shamans and overcharm soul eater than fury, strenght and quick slash. Not only is quick slash a big detour, you dont really want nail upgrades (in TE) because dream warriors get a lot of health, so you upgrade nail at 1800 essence and then you can go for a nail damage build
I actually always wondered about this, super well explained too!
I want to be able to talk about myself with half the confidence fireborn displays when stating his title as God gamer.
i love how accessible you made this video, explaining everything very well
3:25 …But that means it’s 1 point away from being DOUBLED! Though, I guess that’s still not enough to make an impact, even though bosses die nearly twice as fast
I was always curious about this. Super informative.
As a Super Metroid speedrunner I get upset when I get hit in Hollow Knight and don't fly halfway through the entire room.
3:02 okay that is actually an awesome stunt
Everyone I've seen calls it pog axe, affectionately.
I tried for like 5 minutes to bounce of one of those pickaxes my first playthrough, trying to get to that ledge that leads to Hallownest's Crown, I made it, then realized I had to do it a second time and gave up...
you’re spoiling us with the uploads :o
Here’s my question: in a Any% NMG TAS where we don’t care about human viability at all does Fury of the Fallen save time?
no
It can, but only by doing even more TAS-only shenanigans to enable skipping VS entirely
@@jarlyk so would fury theoretically be faster than vs? Vs obviously has way more damage early game. ( And all of Any%)
@@void1359 So, normally skipping VS before dash is really slow, because human strats for getting past the Baldur involve either long nail or dreamshield. There's a TAS-only strat that allows us to get past the Baldur without picking up any items at all, however, which allows us to get dash extremely early. Because you're skipping two segments that normally are done without dash (FK and mound), you save a ton of time, enough to offset the slower boss fights from not having VS/shamans damage.
@@jarlyk Additionally, for Uumuu, one of the fights where VS is super important for damage, the TAS will just one-cycle it with the Ooma, so not having VS ends up not mattering at all there.
Bruh I watched this whole thing before realising I just spaced out and watched the speedrun in the background
Actually, I have wondered this; the only answer I could think of is because it's too risky. Thanks for answering it!
i always wonder if anyone checks out one of fire's videos for the first time and hear the "god gamer" and get extremely confused
would love to see a god gamers video about 112%! it’s so complex that even as a big fan of hollow knight speedrunning i have trouble wrapping my head around it haha
wonder how fast nail only any% could be.
Spelless comes just under 40 minutes at 39:47
Just keep 1hp for the 3h speedrun easy :')
This makes it make a lot more sense why so many pantheon videos seem to use Fury, because almost none of those drawbacks apply. No time to get the charm, no routing jank, and the time forcing the game to allow overcharm isn't on the clock. Also, because they're shorter it probably means less lost runs (or at least, less lost IRL time) and extra stress due to being one mistake from death at all times.
As for the question of difficulty, one thing to prove Fire's point is that the Red Tearstone Ring in Dark Souls is basically a less potent version of the same concept, and requires more awkward setup to hurt yourself to the right degree, and speedrunners in Dark Souls DO use it because it's not as hard to get, menuing is faster, and doing damage is a bigger part of your total time.
im now remembering the hk tas with fury of the fallen and the speed at which the boss would die; only computer speed run ahah
Though, to be fair, that's a TAS for a spelless category, which doesn't have to compete with VS and shamans. :) That changes the calculus for what's optimal pretty dramatically.
@@jarlyk oh! i didnt know it was in a spelless category! im curious to see how fast the spell tas is now!!!!
as a piece of constructive feedback, the footage in the bg is fun as "relevant noise" and all, but this video was a lot about mentioning specific sections of the game, so it would've been sick to have footage that actually reflects what you're explaining. would make explaining a lot easier as well
Dang, it's impressive to see him explain all of this while speedrunning
Hey!!! Glad I caught this early
apparently the idea is so complex that an ENTIRE any % speedrun is playing in the back while Fire explains :)
In pantheons, it's just so much better to equip the other 2 slot charm instead: spell twister.
Daily reminder that P5 Hitless has been done with Compass
Can't wait to see this all
He's such a god he's doing a speedrun while looking at the camera
Great video
I'm one of the people who have wondered why Fury isn't used in speedruns, but I never wondered about it in terms of any%. It was obvious enough to me that there was so much time loss involved that the chance of it possibly saving time is miniscule at best. But I did wonder why it isn't really used in, say, 112 APB. You fight so many enemies, not just bosses, that I would have figured it would have saved loads of time, even with the time lost getting the charm and everything else. But, you explained all of my concerns very thoroughly and I now understand why it isn't used where I thought it would be. Thanks, Fire!
i think it'd be fun to do a speedrunner vs hunters where your end goal is to beat the nightmare king
would be a nice goal anyways because you actually don't need any abilities to do the fight itself. So its really just about getting there as fast as possible - although that might include getting extra abilities to be able to deal with the hunters.
Oh a new cut? Looking sharp as ever gamer god ^`^
didn't realise it was the tas in the background until it did wcs lol
Omg there's grubby and knight plushie listening to fury of the fallen explanation.
Using fury of the fallen is essentially speedrunning on glass soul mode
You're the best dude
21:35 poor fire still thinking silk song will come out soon
Man i haven’t seen your channel in like over a year. Hi!
Valigo is using Fury of the Fallen at the start for False Knight for his Speed Runs
could bench at ancestral mound instead of dirtmouth and use fury for hornet but not false knight?
Hey fire can you please make a video on how to do some glitches like wall cling storage
Basically comes down to why you don't get most items in a speedrun. The time loss getting it isn't worth the time save you'd get from it.
Honestly it mostly just sounds like something that may have been good for early hollow knight runs, but now that things are so tight-knit, and the routes and pathing are near perfect, it's hard to excuse squeezing it in despite the potential use.
Finally, answers!
Hi love your videos
what if you pick up the charm notch in fungal wastes then used the money you got form mushrooms for the salubra notch when buying shaman stone
Video was on point, it shows why fury isn’t used in the route well. Nice.
Another question I have is: Why is soul catcher not used? Is it just because of overcharming?
You also have to go out of your way to get it equip it, and honestly it doesn't get that much extra soul
1:55 hello world! 🤗
What about isma's tear route? You get a nail upgrade in that one.
good question
Imagine a top runner is 3 minutes behind the world record and on a whim realizes his only change of getting the record is fury of the fallen and does the entire pantheon hitless beating the record by 3 seconds.
PRE WATCH- my guess before i watch this is because notches
interesting!
Basically, in the shorter runs, the whole point of the path is to skip as many bosses as possible (plus other stuff) so you end up just not fighting enough bosses for fury to be worth.
fury is to make some tas runs look extra spicy :)
Speedrunners debating whether or not the stress of doing hitless P5 at the end of a 3 hour run is worth the timesave
Me who can't handle the stress of P5 on its own
Blod for the silck song gods
me being 10 hours into this game feels weird that i enjoy watching some guy waffle about some charm I've never heard of and have no idea how to get
How did he like side jump or something and skipped the acid at 7.12? Im kinda noob still so speedrun stuff amaze me but i dont get most of it
That is called "wall cling storage", a minor glitch. Notice how he touched the gate (7:08) - the game marked Knight state as "clings to a wall to the right" and didn't properly remove it when the gate opened. And you can dash left from a wall ;)
The similar trick is used to cross the Blue Lake faster (since the game doesn't check whether you left the wall when you're already swimming).
7:12 How the hell did he pogo the acid? O_O
Oh, I recognize that animation, that's not a pogo, I *believe* that is wall cling storage.
I don't know how it works very well, other than the game thinks you're mantis claw'd onto a wall while you're midair and it gives you a massive speedboost when performed correctly.
you explain all of this so well, have you considered becoming a math teacher?
Do u have a script? You didn’t stop for arnd 20 mins its very impressive so I’m a little curious
Just bullet points! I used to work as a teacher, babbling is my specialty
@@fireb0rn Wow! A teacher and a professional gamer, you really are the best TH-camr out there😂
Rocks
"Because dying isn't fun"
WE FINALLY GET THE ANSWER
i just wish it was like DS1 where RTSR is mandatory. It makes the run more intense to play and also more fun to watch. And there is the run killer in the kiln he is fun as well (not)
Grass
ah yes, “grass”
1/10
@@Gwonkee hi gwonkee
@Gwonkee hi gwonkee
@@fireb0rn omg hi fireb0rn 😳
I look forward to this being mentioned and debunked in a summoning salt video in 2040
yay fireborn
Skin of the tumb pls
Inreresting!
Fury is still niche lets gooooo
Because playing on one mask is too risky.
One hit can ruin it all, unless you’re a prodigy radiant player, you’re toast.
Could you go back to the super well edited speedrun evolution videos?👍
You can fit more than half of the entire video in one sentence:
When 80% of your total damage comes from spells, having fury will only grant a 75% increase to your nail damage which accounts for 20% of your total damage, resulting in a total of 15% increase in total damage.
If only most people on the internet still remember what they taught back in middleschool you could've saved a lot of words.
9:32 what about crossroads stag bench
You don’t pick up crossroads stag in any%, so it would be a detour and therefore time loss.
It would be a detour. You don't go there when you go to False Knight (because you don't have 50 geo) - so no Hornet. You _can_ sit there when you go to Gruz Mother, but you'll sit at Salubra bench in a couple of minutes, so what's the point? (I guess the point would be to kill Gruz Mother faster... with Fury active you kill gruzzers in one swing which may come in handy if you screw up the cleanup.)
@@brennanruiz1803 i see, ty
21:34 not when, if
Minimize risk while maximizing reward, and the risk of fury of the fallen isn't worth the reward as compared to other strats being practiced by players now
Yet.
In the joint coop speed run you did a while ago I would have if I was there grabbed fury and then go and equip it then use it for when I do bosses like False Knight. Cause I will grab city crest and since i have fury when he inevitably gets me to low health be able to deal more damage then dodge as best I can in the last cycle.
P.S. I have gotten extremely good at doing the parkour to get fury. So I wouldn't really be wasting time because I can do the pogos easily. I'd be able to get it in about like... well from the start of the parkour to fury... like 10 - 15 seconds.
Why do speed runners/ TAS use lumafly lantern when they can just memorize the dark section
Access to the crystal mines needs either lantern to pay the toll or descending dark.
You can't pay the toll door to enter crystal peaks without lantern.
(You also can't fight no eyes, but that comes up less often.)
Wait What
The time spent olto get fury of the fallen is really small tho, doub it is not theoretically better.
What's difficulty?
From since when did speedrunners know what difficulty is?
I thought all they knew was time saves