If the aircraft carrier wasn't invented, the Yamato would have been the best battleship of WW2. However, naval war tactics did not develop necessarily to Japan's advantage.
@@Queue_M4 It had problems even without the carriers. I believe the Yamamoto was in the battle of Samar where it was scared off by American destroyers being so aggressive and using their radar targeting to their advantage while the Japanese were still using colored smoke to figure out where to fire.
@@Queue_M4 That's not necessarily true. American Iowa-class battleships had significant advantages over the Yamato and it likely would have come down to time of day, weather, and other factors to determine which ship would win a 1v1 contest. Regardless, magnificent ship.
They had to go for "quality" and bigger battleships meant bigger guns, more armor. They knew they couldn't build up to or outbuild USN and their battleships. Industrial Giant intensifies.
A minor point of order, The Dreadnaught Class WAS NOT a SFB design. It was designed by Franz Joseph (designer of the Constitution class and all ships from TOS) from some technical manual that he made in the early 70's and was an official publication. The designers of SFB (and the SFB License in general), bought their license from Franz Joseph and not Roddenberry/ Paramount
The SFB Federation Battleship is the Mars class Battleship, which, according to SFB lore, never made it out of the design stage due to the resources required to build it (and the adjustments to the shipyards to be able to construct it).
I'm a big fan of the SFB heavy dreadnought. It has Lots of phasers, photons and multifunction drone/missile/point defense launchers for ever occasion.❤
It's worth noting that Franz Joseph and Star Fleet Battles both operated under the belief that the warp nacelles themselves generated power, rather than the central warp core we see later, based on some of the in-episode statements and writer's guide. From that standpoint, adding a third nacelle to the Federation class meant it had 50% more power available for weapons, shields and propulsion than the Constitution class had.
i always thought the third nacelle was to allow the saucer to escape at warp during evacuations and allow the secondary hull to be used as a last resort guided bomb
In the game the dreadnought and the Mars class Battleship (2 nacelles on top) were to allow the saucer to have warp capability if the main section was to heavily damaged and or the neck section was heavily damaged so the saucer could be used as a lifeboat and still fight.@@thanqualthehighseer
@@thanqualthehighseer That’s an added benefit, at least in the SFB game, where dreadnoughts retain some warp power after saucer separation thanks to that nacelle. That’s be real handy for a frontier battleship.
Yeah, that game as a whole was pricelessly awesome. And Agreed 💯, I always made sure to save the Proxima in that one mission so I could add it to my fleet. 🖖🤘
Gemini reminds me HMS Nelson. She's slow, she consumes ocean of fuel, but by god she will put the HURT on you if you get too close. Nelson shattered every window she had firing a full broadside. Would Gemeni do the same? Awesome as always yo!
Other battleships like proxima and atlas would have more firepower. But gemini is very forward focused. Designed to charge down enemies at warp and make them flinch.
Nelson was one of those battleships that made the enemy question their life choices. "Good. She's giving pursuit. That means she can't fire everything at us." "Why is she angling her armor like that?" "1...2....3.....ARE THOSE ALL HER GUNS MOUNTED FORWARD?!?!"
@venomgeekmedia9886 Having the Gemini as the _Tip of the Spear_ in a formation makes a lot of sense, as well as its apparent niche of as a heavy raider for counter offences and _kick in the face and run._ With other ships in a battlegroup it can have its vulnerable rear quarter covered, and it's job is to reach out and hit the enemy fleet first (with its phaser "lances") as they close into range before the main bodies of both fleets can hit each other. Then it just pours fire into the enemy, focusing on eliminating the enemies heavy hitters asap in order to reduce returning fire at the fleet. As well, being in a battlegroup solves it's logistics issues as there will be dedicated support for such a force.
Something to consider….. combat starships need NOT be bigger than the hero ships of whatever era we are speaking of…. In TNG season 1 episode 19 i believe Tasha Yar mentions that “stripped of its bulk” the stardrive section of the Galaxy Class becomes an exceptional battleship …. Take a look at the crew accommodations of a Conventional NATO naval vessel ….. getting rid of the scientific equipment, and reducing crew quarters down to something you would see on a NATO naval vessel and your “battleships” are suddenly smaller and more nimble than your exploratory heavy cruisers
I agree about the size and rarity. A real world heavy cruiser was typically a third to a quarter the weight and about 75% the length of of a battleship. As for the numbers of cruisers in the pre WWII navies the ratio of cruisers to battleships was 5-1 average.
This gives something to a lore of perhaps Starfleet design and shipyards were still trying to figure out how to build large battleships. Kept tweaking the design in different directions.
Well, if we accept that Starfleet seriously avoided designations that imply a "battlefleet", then if they started trying to create a capital ship... gotta work out what a "capital ship" design is like compared to cruiser and below designs. And then Excelsior. You could argue that Excelsior is the winning battleship design, except she became the standard cruiser design. :D Now I kinda wonder about the Niagara. If we adjust the two phaser arrays at the saucer rear so they aren't directly under a nacelle, we'd get a ship slightly smaller than an Ambassador in length but with more firepower. Possibly better speed.
As others have pointed out, the Federation class is a Franz Joseph design, not Star Fleet Battles (and is technically screen canon thanks to both background dialog mentions and artwork showing up in TMP). SFB licensed all the FJ designs, so it is a standard ship in-game. In most fan canons where dreadnoughts exist, they are a separate type from proper battleships. Dreadnoughts are as fast or faster than the less powerful heavy cruisers, while being smaller and less powerful than the true behemoths that battleships represent. In SFB, while dreadnoughts are relatively common, battleships are extremely rare, with only the Klingons actually building a few (at ruinous cost and minimal strategic effectiveness). There is a Fed battleship in the game rules, the Mars class, but it's a conjectural design that was too expensive to actually build and operate in the SFB timeline.
I know about the Federation class because of the novel Dreadnaught which had a ridiculously overpowered ship called Star Empire. This ship had five phaser banks capable of independent simultaneous targeting. Three full layers of energy screens and shields. Nearly phaser resistant armor. And prototype quantum torpedoes and a very early prototype trans-warp drive. The thing was a literal monster compared to Kirk's Enterprise and was capable of taking on whole squadrons of standard heavy cruisers all by itself. It was designed and built by a rogue admiral who had designs on crushing aggressive and pirate alien cultures and the ship was completely capable of wiping them out.
@@MetalheadAndNerdwell it was published in 1986 so the timeline at that point ended in Star Trek III. Then IV came out later that year and TNG a year and a half later, so the novel authors had a whole lot of freedom to speculate and world build in ways that were closed off later on. I miss that era, when novels got to do some wild stories.
Federation class is technically a Franz Joseph design. Which is part of the early Star Trek Starfleet Technical Manual. It's probably no longer canon, but it's close to being.
yah, they do mention one of the ships in comms chatter in TMP but thats about it. my feelings are that it may have been alpha canon but was a failed class, as the excelsior class was going for longer in development and 'paid off' more, along with more powerful and compact warp tech made its bulk obsolete, like an Edsel.
@@DaiAtlus79 I was thinking more along the lines that the old guides from the 70s and 80s, despite their value, were rendered obsolete by later developments in the franchise. Still, they are worth having.
@@1nONLY_DRock thats how beta Canon goes - its there til the main crowd involved with the IP change things. FASA had the issue of things that were not nearly in line with main Trek - photon torpedoes being recent developments, the whole getting klingon and romulan roles reversed, etc. the worst thing i think FASA did was the Doppelganger drive, moreso because its overcomplicating things instead of a simpler solution, dual coils inside a single nacelle with altered warp field geometry (the reasoning he used for the dreadnought's bubble looked inefficient on power etc vs its size and envelope, with its wasted space).
I love the Atlas Class. Based on playing it in STO, I see it as the center of the fleet. HMS Victory or HMS Iron Duke. Constitutions would screen and get rid of everything but the very biggest enemy ships and then the Atlas would come in and lay waste to the enemy capital ships. The night after an Atlas class engages the Klingons, the halls of Sto-Vo-Kor will be overflowing with new warriors.
@@Paleorunner2 so the thrai isn't really a battleship. More a long range strike cruiser. As for the D9 (which should probaby be called B9 since its a battleship and FASA already has a B9) it sufferers from the problems ant klingon battleship faces which I will cover in a video.
Going by the description in this video, its fatal flaw is that it is it doesn't make sense to combine an assault ship and a battleship as part of a fleet. An assault ship should be avoiding space battles, being protected by the battleships. Meanwhile, a battleship should be getting into it and blasting the enemy and taking hits else you are wasting a ton of firepower. If you have fleets, you are better off having a dedicated battleship and a dedicated assault ship to put in those fleets. The only way a combined battleship / assault ship makes sense is if it operates alone (or with only small ships in support). It's basically the same issue as the ideas about a battle-carrier in real life.
The reason for the positioning of the Federation's third nacelle was actually to provide the saucer warp capability. It was an interesting concept, but apparently found little use at the time as warp-capable subsections would not be tried again until the Prometheus-class more than a century later. And the Federation-class (as well as the destroyer, scout, and tug) were originally in the TOS Technical Manual before Star Fleet Battles.
As a kid, watching TOS in syndication, every Starfleet fighting ship we saw was a Constitution. My impression was that the Connie was a rather standard exploratory ship, and the idea of there being bigger and meaner ships in Starfleet seemed natural. Of course, there are episodes countering this impression, the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" establishes the number of (current) Connies at 12. The "Star Trek the Motion Picture" novelization has the Enterprise (at least the movie refit version) as being "at least a battleship". I always took that novelization seriously as it supposedly was written by Roddenberry himself, but the statement was a bit mind blowing to me at the time I read it. However, one must consider that the original Constitution design was over 20 years old in TOS based on the idea of the semi-official launch date of 2245, and the Enterprise appearing in "The Cage" and clearly being in operation for some time by then. And, of course, from not being the prototype ship of the class. That Starfleet would be working on bigger and meaner battleships would make sense by the time of TOS; the Constitutions just being very successful, highly advanced in their day, and kept updated, larger designs just not really able to render them obsolete, but there being a parade of classes of small production runs or single ship prototypes that attempted to. Anyway, the idea that 'of course an exploratory vessel has to be able to defend itself and handle multiple situations' carries a lot of weight with me, and explains why a long distance exploration ship might also double as a de-facto battleship.
The Exeter Star Trek club here in the north east of England used to be a fictional dreadnaught class. As members we could be any branch of Starfleet. When I left due to family commitments our club had become two. The Exeter was based in Darlington/Newcastle and the Collinwood based in the town of Blyth. When I left the Exeter was similar to the tri-nacelle Galaxy class. Being their fictional chief engineer I knew roughly how it functioned thanks to the manuals that you could get and I still have. I also built a conversion of the Runabout that I named the Tees, that had a weapons pod instead of the sensor overhead pod. I'm still building and converting models including the odd spaceships.
The Proxima class has been a favourite of mine, TOS and TMP era versions, since I first played Star Trek Legacy, beautiful ship and I loved the broadside cannons she had in that game!
3:28 The 3 engine dreadnought was not designed by TFG for Star Fleet Battles (1979). It was designed for the Star Fleet Technical Manual that came out in 1975. It also appeared first in a game in 1977's Star Fleet Battle Manual.
As with much else online, people don't read the original books on the making of the series or they confuse source material, refer to later designs as TOS. I just left comment that it's clear by the shows creators and in the show itself that the Connie's are the big boys and called Heavy Star Cruisers because exploration is their business, warships in necessity. For Starfleets ethos 'battleship' is belligerent.
1977's SFBM is the retitle and expansion of Zocchi's 1972 Star Trek Battle Manual. In 1974, Zocchi got a license from FJD, and then suggested to SVC to contact FJD. (reference SFB designer's notes, the lawsuit notes in Nexus 18, and the entries on Boardgame Geek.)
I remember playing Klingon Academy and I manage to take out a Dreadnought class with a B'Prey lol. Maneuverability matters! Speaking of which, when are you going to start review ships from Klingon Academy. They have GREAT ships! Yamato class is a beautiful ship which I think is probably the successor to the Proxima class.
My personal opinion of the story is that it does a great job of setting up the plot line for Star Trek six. And could have been used as a partial answer to the Klingons renewed strength later.
Technologically differing Gorn not necessarily more advanced just weird enough so that normal feddie tech did not work great to start with but now that they are a threat the feds essentially cranked out mods and new stuff to counter it in a few months.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and form provided on this format and subject matter on the various different TOS Battle Ships, And the Federation Dreadnought class was always one of my favorite designs as per the Franz Joseph Starfleet technical Manuel of the early 70's with all the other Classes of Starship's with in the Manuel in accordance with the Matt Jeffries designs. And I myself have all the model resin kits of all those designs in various scales. Any ways a job very nicely well done indeed guys and explained by you Sir!,👌.
Being a TOS kid and a retired Star Fleet Battles player. I have a fondness for the Dreadnought class and its successor the Mars class battleships. If you look at the Dreadnought as 150% and the Mars at 200% of the Constitution it makes sense. My personal favorite battleship of all times is John Payne's USS Coeur De Lion.
On the Atlas class, it looks like a TOS version of the Chimera class that Captain Nog commands during the Iconian war. It's something that I've noticed STO has been doing. They take a basic ship design, and then try to shoehorn in versions of the basic design to fit TOS, Disco, TMP, TNG, 25th Century, and future eras of Star Trek time periods. They haven't done that to every ship yet, but that seems to be the direction that they are going.
The only one that looks like it belongs is the Federation class. FASA's designs all sucked. (Same for their Traveller ship designs, too.) It was, however, contested only by SFB. And if SFB does one thing well, it's keeping the ships looking like they're part of unified fleets... probably too well.
Atlas Class my beloved ❤ The moment the Undiscovered lockbox came out, my heart was set on trying to get her for the longest time. Her chunky design immediately struck a chord with me, just had the look of a siege vessel, like a starship version of the T95 assault tank. So beefy, so over-engineered, it was perfect from a visual design point of view! She'll always have a place in my heart, whether she's beta canon or not. :D
TOS Battleships are chef's kiss. I like them big, I like them chunky. The Federation class would be under the command of a Commodore for sure? The Proxima, Gemini, Federation, Atlas, and also the honorable mention that is the Yorktown are my favorites. And it would've been awesome seeing these ships in a line formation slugging it out against the klingon equivalents in a Trafalgar style battle. Also here is the idea, what if the Yorktown-class Battleship was refitted into a Battlecruiser for the TOS era?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I did played the Yorktown-class in Star Trek Legacy during Kirk's era, well the two Yorktowns really struggled against the likes of the D7.
The ship, maybe a commodore as the flag captain, but the flag would be at least an RAdm for the accompanying battle line... almost no battleship in the wet navies went about without lesser ships.
I'm glad we share the same views on three-nacelled ships... especially regarding the Federation/Dreadnought-class and Galaxy-X. I'm not well liked in several circles for hating on those two. Also the Proxima is my favorite from the list. I'm a sucker for 4 nacelle designs, and with the interesting look that two engineering hulls makes, it just is perfect. May be slow, may be sluggish, but by god is it sexy
My only problem is the idea that each hull has a warp reactor…. With one powering the dorsal and one the ventral nacelles thats alot of crisscrossing going on
Don't forget, the TOS Connies, according to Canon, had a lot of issues in various areas that led to the Constitution refit. But thanks for making this about the "heavy lifting" battle ships of the TOS.
Remember also 'Mister Scott's Guide to the Enterprise' mentions Dreadnaught class ones. And if one gets very picky, in Star Trek: The Motion Picture we see a schematic on a display showing a Dreadnaught deck plan (from Starfleet Battles). Admittedly, whether Mister Scott's guide is canon is somewhat debatable, and background displays aren't always considered that - but there are references. The game 'Klingon Academy' involves the deployment of heavy Battleships, them being restricted to core territories and only activated in time of war. Whether this is considered canon is again up in the air but that is a plot point - and a large tactical one as the cadets have to figure out how to engage them and discussions are rampant about them and their deployment.
Fun vid, i can really see the imagery you describe near the end of the vid, the defensive line, picturing battle scenes from ds9 but with these ships Really wish we could get matchbox car style models of star trek ships
All four of those battleships are intriguing designs. Conveying size and power. Just imagine a battle between such ships vs their Klingon and/or Romulan counterparts.
3:30 No, the Federation-Class is from the Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph, copyright 1975/ Starfleet Battles is copyright 1979 and took the Federation-Class from the Technical Manual.
Although it's never stated explicitly that the Connies are the most powerful ships in TOS, dialogue in the Menagerie suggests that they are a huge leap forward in technology and capability, and dialogue in ... I think Assignment Earth, bluntly says there's only 12 of them. Suggesting that either the design is very niche and specialised, or that it's powerful enough that Star Fleet never expects to need more than one or two for any given problem, which in turn implies they're very powerful. Also, I need to object to the comparision to the USN Constitution-class frigates from the age of sail. Those frigates were very powerful and larger than pretty much everyone else's frigates, yes, but they were also comparatively short-ranged and high-maintenance. The dedicated much more of their internal volume to weapons and ammunition than any RN Fifth- or Sixth-Rate frigate. Really, the USN Constitutions are more like German WW2 "pocket battleships" that cram a lot of combat power into a small hull because it's never going to be that far from port, and are pretty much the polar opposite of a Trek Connie, which is intended for extended independent operation.
You forgot the USS Iron Duke (Star Fleet Museum website). Only saw action during the Organian crisis, where it led the Federation battle fleet. Unable to be upgraded with the then new Linear Warp nacelles, it ended up as a large ship crew training vessel, preparing future crews for the Excelsior class starships that were under construction. Also the USS Heston (Star Fleet Museum website) prototype heavy battle cruiser. This was the forerunner of the Federation class, being identical in appearance except for the omission of the third saucer mounted warp nacelle. It was found to have poor warp field geometry, which caused it to be slow and lacking in power reserves, due to the warp core installed. The USS Heston ended up as a large starship crew training vessel. The USS Heston is very easy to simulate in Star Fleet Battles or the PC version, Star Fleet Command. Simply change the movement cost from 2 down to 1.5 and remove the 15 warp energy boxes for the centre saucer nacelle, to create a starship that can barely move, when charging up all of its weapons or reinforce its shields.
Hello VGM =^^= Thank you for another fun video. Had some thoughts to add to the conversation. Atlas: In regards to the fleet mission role and ship type this vessel would fulfill. With Marines, presumably assault craft, and supporting naval weapons support systems aboard, she would very much fit a modern fleet mission role of a Landing Assault command platform (think LHDs in the USN). You are correct that she would would only be effective in a assaultgroup accompanied by battlegroups and or strikegroups which could screen the assaultgroup, thereby, allowing them to carry out their mission objectives in deploying landing forces. Atlas class capital ships would require lighter capital and cruiser displacement landing assault ships with the same capabilities. These ship types would force multiply the assaultgroup's mission capabilities, mobility, and ability to expand their mission operations tempo if required (IE hit more bad things like a crazy game of space wack a mole) lol. Though in all honesty, if one wanted to type the Atlas class as an assault battleship, it could be done. She would be carrying out the same fleet mission role as a landing command ship, just with a lot more guns..........eh, I mean "motivation" aboard. In fact it would be cool to have an assaultgroup be composed of 1 Landing Command Ship, 1 Landing Assault Battleship, 2 Landing Platform Ships, and 2 to 4 escort ship types (DD and or FF). This configuration would allow the group command to break off the assault battleship with one other landing platform ship and an escort or two to flank a landing zone or to assault a second landing zone if needed. Tiger vs MBTs: A visually similar example to the Tiger II super heavy is the E50 MBT, later used by the Bundeswerh in the 50's when West Germany needed an MBT. Structurally the E50 looks very much like a Tiger II, especially her hull. Like the example you gave, even though they look very similar, they are very very different weapons platforms. Again, enjoyed your enthusiasm and hard work in producing another vid. Cheers.
You got the origin wrong for the Federation class, but that's been litigated already. You also misunderstood what the nacelles were FOR in SFB and Federation Commander, but that's been mentioned too. You should think in terms of the Saladin class, the Constitution class, and the Federation class. The Constitution class with it's 2 nacelles (generating power because that is how SFB worked) has a good set of weapons, good torpedoes and more than enough power to make use of them. It's a good, balanced design. The Saladin class has the same weapons, and half the power. Good for a single strike but it can't sustain it (it has to recharge so to speak). The Federation class has 150% of the power the Connie has and that allows it to hit incredibly hard and absorb a ton of damage. It really is a monster in the SFB world. As SFB understands the systems (from the Star Fleet Battle Manual) all three are great ships and the Federation class is truly a great battleship, maybe the best in the game (if not the toughest). It's equivalent to the C8 Klingon Dreadnought with its third nacelle but I prefered the Fed class. I believe the Federation class was shown briefly on the bridge displays of the original cast movies. And I believe it was shown in "Of Gods and Men", the youTube Star Trek movie (which wasn't canon obviously but included a lot of actual Star Trek actors and good special effects). Now maybe later games have had differing ideas on how power systems worked (and later series and movies) but you have to judge these ships by the era they were in. The Excelsior ships weren't licensed for the SFB game but were kind of the equivalent of the Federation class, but in the movie era. FASA was licensed for the Excelsior but not the Federation class. Those were the last games which tried to SIMULATE starship battles on a mapboard. Star Trek Attack Wing was a fun game but it was more fast and loose and much more abstracted. The Federation class isn't represented and the Excelsior is such an old ship it's not competitive anymore. The battleship of the NG is probably the Sovereign class (or Prometheus class with it's 5 nacelles -- we can guess that they don't think they generate the power and they are not all used except when it's in pieces). And the Galaxy X which IS in Star Trek Attack Wing as a technically non Federation ship (with 3 nacelles, I think as a nod to the Federation class). Frankly that ship makes no sense unless you DO get more power with the third nacelle. I suppose you might get more speed but it's tough to say.
In ST: Legacy from '06 they have the Proxima class along with its refit that's HEAVILY inspired by the Excelsior (plus the Excelsior version of the Miranda). Big and a little slow but has phasers & torpedoes for days. Not to mention having two engineering sections give it Ambassador levels of shields.
To be honest, I think very large stationary defenses and very small in ships makes the most sense for a defensive side of Star Fleet. No need for warp, which means no massive reactor, which means smaller ships are an option. So, at home, you have swarms of sublight ships, and abroad, you have small numbers of large warp ships.
Interestingly, the Proxima class must've been deemed successful enough to receive a refit towards the end of the 23rd Century (TMP era). There were at least four such ships refit to those specifications: USS Bismarck, USS Nimitz, USS Philadelphia, and USS Ticonderoga. Of course it almost certainly would've been restricted under the Khitomer Accords, keeping it from potentially stealing Excelsior's thunder as Starfleet's big stick in that era.
I wouldn't put it that way. Remember TMP refits are happening around 2270. Excelsior won't be launched until 85 and won't enter full production until 89/90. So proxima 2 would serve as a stopgap. But Excelsior was better in every way.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Not to mention being overkill for a peacetime fleet. Still, it's kinda entertaining to imagine what a Proxima-style ship using Excelsior parts would've been like. It'd be an utterly impractical monster of a ship, but there's a part of me that can't help but cackle like a madman at the thought.
I think Visually the STO designs, the Atlas and the Gemini are the best and I could see the Atlas as a big bruiser and the Gemini filling that "fast battleship" roll that appeared for a short while.
I rather like the Federation class. After all, it obviously entered production if Entente 2120 was in service by TMP (whenever that movie is set). And the Star League 2101 was in service according to beta canon at least until Wolf 359.
question for you vemon, in strange new worlds at the end of season one we get a glimse of an aulternate blance of terror were the romulan empire invades a tos era fedration. the show kind of hand waves it away but how do you see such a war being fought and how devasating is it really?
these battleships were for the most part defensive short range craft then Starfleet decided that they wanted a standard battleship a type with long range capabilities.
What are your thoughts on the Ranger Class Battlecruiser? I personally could see it as this mid-range planetary defense vessel meant to defend Federation planets/territory along the boarders. Perhaps not the most successful in its original role but its lineage and tactical role inspiring a split in doctrine with the Miranda rollbar for lighter ships and even the Matsumoto/Kusanagi class vessels
I like the Federation Class and never noticed anything about "warp field geometry" in anything I read about it. The Excelsior Class was also originally referred to as a "Star Dreadnaught" in a few publications.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Something about Excelsior screams "warship" at me for some reason. I think its lines are "aggressive" looking in a way that the Starfleet cruisers' aren't. I've always preferred Starfleet to be a military force that does science and exploration stuff rather than a science and exploration force that does military stuff. I know plenty of trekkies would disagree but that's just my preference. I love TNG mostly but I hate the "yachts in space" period of Starfleet. There is no way to justify the extreme size of the Galaxy Class other than utopian extravagance. Something Roddenberry loved but I eschew.
In a defensive war, the gemini and proxima class would likely pair well. the proxima does her thing and the enemy breaks upon her wall of shields and guns, and before they know what to do the gemini's warp in and rush in, causing utter chaos and confusion as they obliterate command ships and just dont stop, allowing the rest of the fleet to regroup and charge. well... minus the proxima. she'll help out when she gets there guys, dont worry!
Great video on a very interesting subject. Though, one though on federation battleships, that although existing in the fleet, I always felt the reason we don't really see much of them during the TOS era, is that the constitution class, although a heavy cruiser, produced in large numbers, effectively does the role of the battleship when it comes to facing up against the heavier units that the Klingons and Romulans could throw at them, short of a full scale war.
I could see the Federation doing something post Wolf 359 like strapping nacells to a ESD design mounting multiple planetary defence phaser lances would carve up a Cube fairly quickly
I really love the design of the Atlas class I think its the best TOS Battleship design. But I agree the ship feels like Star Fleet engineers where trying to build the Excelsior class before the tech was available. And maybe that was the case Star Fleet probably wanted a front line Exploratory Battleship, but because the tech wasn’t there the class became a failure.
Ok, the excelsior class is a battle cruiser in canon meant to replace the constitutuon class 1. Reason: the klingon empire was a very real and a very heavy ship would mean alot of resources were needed to counter one. 2. Rarity: the Enterprise ran 350 people on it and a battleship ups that by three classes (battle cruiser, dreadnought, and battleship) so minimum triple the crew. The next is fuel and production cost, these behemoths ate dilithium like cheap candy and were a pain to produce and retrofit when new tech became available, this made one in production currently in need of a full refit on completion to be combat effective. Fighting stance: a battleship is power projection in star trek, not a fighting platform. It COULD go to war but if she sank it would devastate morale, so it was a propoganda piece to keep overly aggresive species afraid of the federations strike capability. This beast could fight large ships but frigates could run rings around a battleship and a large ship cant turn worth a damn so as a frigate you got in a battleships weakest firing arcs, did some damage and gtfo before you lost warp capability. Your superior acceleration into warp gave you hit and run potential. So a Battleship NEEDS a fleet to function or its scrap by a thousand needles.
The Proxima class ships are quite impressive and would make great command ships for core world fleets which is likely what they were used for. If I were a starship captain, I'd be honoured to be the captain of one of those beasts. The other battleship types were also impressive in different ways though it's too bad about the Atlas class ships being deeply flawed. They'd work well in a fleet of different ship types supporting each other with them being the big guns that kill the bigger ships of the enemy fleet while being protected by the smaller ships from smaller enemy craft. Bigger isn't always better but there IS a time and place for bigger ships in combat.....
I see the Atlas veing like a seige breaker. It punches through a blockade to drop supplies and reinforcements, and has the durability to survive that attempt, while other elements of a formantion engage hostile elements to distract or try to break through themselves.
I would imagine in TOS battleships were used like the Home Fleet in World War I, they stuck close to home and would rarely leave Federation core worlds. Ships like the Enterprise would be like Cruisers scouting out the far flung oceans.
It’s the conclusion we reached on a Reddit conversation we had on the subject. The dreadnoughts of the Federation were probably lead by a commodore or low ranking admiral and sat in a space dock or large star bases if they weren’t out training. They could probably handle a wing of D7s on their own that had pierced their way deep in the Federation, with the assistance of planetary defences. Alas they were designed for a war that never came and Starfleet moved away from ‘expected war’ philosophy after Khitomer. Much like their real life counterparts, they never saw the action for which they were designed before the match of technology made them obsolete.
Based on what you're saying @Venom Geek Media 98, I wonder if the Atlas class was supposed to be something like the T95 or Tortoise superheavy tanks, built for a singular mission(Maybe assaulting and beating down the defenses of a coreworld of the Klingon Empire if the Federation went back to war with the Klingons only thanks to the Organians they never went to war.) but it was so over large that it just wasn't practical for use outside of that very narrow mission. For those who don't know the T95 (USA) or Tortoise(UK) were superheavy tank projects to break through the Siegfried Line and into Germany, which ultimately were not needed and were just too big for any other use.
TriAngulum kind of made the Atlas Class, in his story, out to be an iteration on the Constitution class that the Top Brass hoped would work. It ultimately failed in every regard and was the main source of phlogging the Public would dish out to Starfleet at the time. Of course, this is because the Atlas Class was trying to use (then) conventional technology when it should've been a statement of the future and using all the new technology that would ultimately give the Enterprise a new lease of life. Speaking of, the public absolutely refused to give the Atlas Class a second chance. It wasn't spared from any amount of criticism and wouldn't get the refit it so desperately needed. So Starfleet was forced to dismantle all of that class of ship and use them for scrap in the construction of new vessels like the Miranda's and Constellation's and a new wave of Constitution's.
I'd partially agree although I don't think it would ever reach full production. But the main idea was to basically doing a modern take on yorktown only to discover they had reached the limit of that spaceframe
Love to hear your thoughts on these; Mars Class Battleship Essex Class Battleship by Bill Kruse Kodiak class Battleship from Jackill's Starfleet Reference Guide
IRL battleships are maintenance nightmares, and I see these ships all having the same issue. I don't see any of these classes numbering more than 6 ships, except the Federation and Proxima classes. Those might number a dozen at most.
I’ve still got the plastic Federation ships that Franz Joseph sold for their dreadful games. I saw them advertised in the back of Dragon Magazine before I even knew there were games for Star Trek. That would have been around 1979-80. Though I didn’t buy the glow-in-the-dark versions. I got into SFB almost immediately upon seeing it and that cemented it my mind. So for me the tri-engined Dreadnought is THE Federation’s BB.
The 3rd Warp Nacelle of the Federation Class was entirely about power. The Nacelles were a part of the primary power system of those designs, so that 3rd one represented a 50% power increase. And for the design philosophy it came from a Dreadnaught is actually smaller than a battleship.
3:31 Nope, it is a Star Fleet Technical Manual ship, designed by Franz Joseph Schnaubelt and first printed in 1975. Star Fleet Battles came out in 1979.
There are some that believe bigger is always better.
These people built Yamato.
They were wrong.
If the aircraft carrier wasn't invented, the Yamato would have been the best battleship of WW2. However, naval war tactics did not develop necessarily to Japan's advantage.
@@Queue_M4 It had problems even without the carriers. I believe the Yamamoto was in the battle of Samar where it was scared off by American destroyers being so aggressive and using their radar targeting to their advantage while the Japanese were still using colored smoke to figure out where to fire.
@@Queue_M4 That's not necessarily true. American Iowa-class battleships had significant advantages over the Yamato and it likely would have come down to time of day, weather, and other factors to determine which ship would win a 1v1 contest.
Regardless, magnificent ship.
And we all know what happened to the Yamato.
th-cam.com/video/pyeOHQvLja8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Ty0j3ZXJJ5iIn9ap
They had to go for "quality" and bigger battleships meant bigger guns, more armor. They knew they couldn't build up to or outbuild USN and their battleships. Industrial Giant intensifies.
A minor point of order, The Dreadnaught Class WAS NOT a SFB design. It was designed by Franz Joseph (designer of the Constitution class and all ships from TOS) from some technical manual that he made in the early 70's and was an official publication. The designers of SFB (and the SFB License in general), bought their license from Franz Joseph and not Roddenberry/ Paramount
And Paramount was forced to direct license them as part of the resolution of Paramount vs Task Force Games & Amarillo Design Bureau (1986?)
It's also fully canon, not beta canon, as we hear the dreadnought U.S.S. Entente NCC-2120 hail the Epsilon 9 station in TMP.
The SFB Federation Battleship is the Mars class Battleship, which, according to SFB lore, never made it out of the design stage due to the resources required to build it (and the adjustments to the shipyards to be able to construct it).
It was also from Early TOS (1972 from memory) when nacelles were powerplants rather than the modern warp core garbage
I'm a big fan of the SFB heavy dreadnought. It has Lots of phasers, photons and multifunction drone/missile/point defense launchers for ever occasion.❤
It's worth noting that Franz Joseph and Star Fleet Battles both operated under the belief that the warp nacelles themselves generated power, rather than the central warp core we see later, based on some of the in-episode statements and writer's guide. From that standpoint, adding a third nacelle to the Federation class meant it had 50% more power available for weapons, shields and propulsion than the Constitution class had.
It makes sense when you consider where the bussard collectors are….
This exactly. This was before the Warp Core become a thing. Back then the power flowed from the nacelles to the energizer
i always thought the third nacelle was to allow the saucer to escape at warp during evacuations and allow the secondary hull to be used as a last resort guided bomb
In the game the dreadnought and the Mars class Battleship (2 nacelles on top) were to allow the saucer to have warp capability if the main section was to heavily damaged and or the neck section was heavily damaged so the saucer could be used as a lifeboat and still fight.@@thanqualthehighseer
@@thanqualthehighseer That’s an added benefit, at least in the SFB game, where dreadnoughts retain some warp power after saucer separation thanks to that nacelle. That’s be real handy for a frontier battleship.
Loved the Proxima-class in Legacy and how it had broadside phaser canons for smashing the shields of enemy ships.
Yeah, that game as a whole was pricelessly awesome. And Agreed 💯, I always made sure to save the Proxima in that one mission so I could add it to my fleet. 🖖🤘
I unironically love the Federation Class Dreadnought. Best TOS era design.
I’ve actually enjoyed the design for years now too.
@@bigboy4006fellow Federation class enjoyer
@@keyboardt8276 I first saw it in one of my Star Trek manuals. Thought it looked cool when I first saw it.
Defiant.
Same. The Federation Class kicks ass.
Federation class also has a warp capable saucer section in the event of separation. So there's that.
Gemini reminds me HMS Nelson. She's slow, she consumes ocean of fuel, but by god she will put the HURT on you if you get too close. Nelson shattered every window she had firing a full broadside. Would Gemeni do the same? Awesome as always yo!
fancy seeing you here!
Other battleships like proxima and atlas would have more firepower. But gemini is very forward focused. Designed to charge down enemies at warp and make them flinch.
Yes, I do occasionally pop around here and there @@davidreeves4556
Nelson was one of those battleships that made the enemy question their life choices.
"Good. She's giving pursuit. That means she can't fire everything at us."
"Why is she angling her armor like that?"
"1...2....3.....ARE THOSE ALL HER GUNS MOUNTED FORWARD?!?!"
@venomgeekmedia9886 Having the Gemini as the _Tip of the Spear_ in a formation makes a lot of sense, as well as its apparent niche of as a heavy raider for counter offences and _kick in the face and run._
With other ships in a battlegroup it can have its vulnerable rear quarter covered, and it's job is to reach out and hit the enemy fleet first (with its phaser "lances") as they close into range before the main bodies of both fleets can hit each other. Then it just pours fire into the enemy, focusing on eliminating the enemies heavy hitters asap in order to reduce returning fire at the fleet.
As well, being in a battlegroup solves it's logistics issues as there will be dedicated support for such a force.
Something to consider….. combat starships need NOT be bigger than the hero ships of whatever era we are speaking of….
In TNG season 1 episode 19 i believe Tasha Yar mentions that “stripped of its bulk” the stardrive section of the Galaxy Class becomes an exceptional battleship …. Take a look at the crew accommodations of a Conventional NATO naval vessel ….. getting rid of the scientific equipment, and reducing crew quarters down to something you would see on a NATO naval vessel and your “battleships” are suddenly smaller and more nimble than your exploratory heavy cruisers
I agree about the size and rarity.
A real world heavy cruiser was typically a third to a quarter the weight and about 75% the length of of a battleship.
As for the numbers of cruisers in the pre WWII navies the ratio of cruisers to battleships was 5-1 average.
This gives something to a lore of perhaps Starfleet design and shipyards were still trying to figure out how to build large battleships. Kept tweaking the design in different directions.
Yeah although it's hard to say any won. Excelsior blindsided them all
Well, if we accept that Starfleet seriously avoided designations that imply a "battlefleet", then if they started trying to create a capital ship... gotta work out what a "capital ship" design is like compared to cruiser and below designs. And then Excelsior. You could argue that Excelsior is the winning battleship design, except she became the standard cruiser design. :D
Now I kinda wonder about the Niagara. If we adjust the two phaser arrays at the saucer rear so they aren't directly under a nacelle, we'd get a ship slightly smaller than an Ambassador in length but with more firepower. Possibly better speed.
As others have pointed out, the Federation class is a Franz Joseph design, not Star Fleet Battles (and is technically screen canon thanks to both background dialog mentions and artwork showing up in TMP). SFB licensed all the FJ designs, so it is a standard ship in-game.
In most fan canons where dreadnoughts exist, they are a separate type from proper battleships. Dreadnoughts are as fast or faster than the less powerful heavy cruisers, while being smaller and less powerful than the true behemoths that battleships represent. In SFB, while dreadnoughts are relatively common, battleships are extremely rare, with only the Klingons actually building a few (at ruinous cost and minimal strategic effectiveness). There is a Fed battleship in the game rules, the Mars class, but it's a conjectural design that was too expensive to actually build and operate in the SFB timeline.
I know about the Federation class because of the novel Dreadnaught which had a ridiculously overpowered ship called Star Empire. This ship had five phaser banks capable of independent simultaneous targeting. Three full layers of energy screens and shields. Nearly phaser resistant armor. And prototype quantum torpedoes and a very early prototype trans-warp drive. The thing was a literal monster compared to Kirk's Enterprise and was capable of taking on whole squadrons of standard heavy cruisers all by itself. It was designed and built by a rogue admiral who had designs on crushing aggressive and pirate alien cultures and the ship was completely capable of wiping them out.
Either that or the author was just a twelve year old with no sense of the time line, dimensions and proportions.
Awesome book - still one of my favorite TOS novels
@@MetalheadAndNerdwell it was published in 1986 so the timeline at that point ended in Star Trek III. Then IV came out later that year and TNG a year and a half later, so the novel authors had a whole lot of freedom to speculate and world build in ways that were closed off later on. I miss that era, when novels got to do some wild stories.
[nerd] Well, the Dreadnought is more properly a Franz Josez design then SFB... [/nerd] Anyways, good video. Rather liked it!
Atlas Class is my personal favorite. It's also known as the T6 Prototype Dreadnought in STO.
Federation class is technically a Franz Joseph design. Which is part of the early Star Trek Starfleet Technical Manual. It's probably no longer canon, but it's close to being.
yah, they do mention one of the ships in comms chatter in TMP but thats about it. my feelings are that it may have been alpha canon but was a failed class, as the excelsior class was going for longer in development and 'paid off' more, along with more powerful and compact warp tech made its bulk obsolete, like an Edsel.
@@DaiAtlus79 I was thinking more along the lines that the old guides from the 70s and 80s, despite their value, were rendered obsolete by later developments in the franchise. Still, they are worth having.
@@1nONLY_DRock thats how beta Canon goes - its there til the main crowd involved with the IP change things. FASA had the issue of things that were not nearly in line with main Trek - photon torpedoes being recent developments, the whole getting klingon and romulan roles reversed, etc. the worst thing i think FASA did was the Doppelganger drive, moreso because its overcomplicating things instead of a simpler solution, dual coils inside a single nacelle with altered warp field geometry (the reasoning he used for the dreadnought's bubble looked inefficient on power etc vs its size and envelope, with its wasted space).
I love the Atlas Class. Based on playing it in STO, I see it as the center of the fleet. HMS Victory or HMS Iron Duke. Constitutions would screen and get rid of everything but the very biggest enemy ships and then the Atlas would come in and lay waste to the enemy capital ships. The night after an Atlas class engages the Klingons, the halls of Sto-Vo-Kor will be overflowing with new warriors.
I mean the question is there anything that the Connie realistically can't handle.
Excellent point
@venomgeekmedia9886 since we're using STO as the source, but the Klingons and Romulans have battleships that are equivalent.
@@Paleorunner2 so the thrai isn't really a battleship. More a long range strike cruiser. As for the D9 (which should probaby be called B9 since its a battleship and FASA already has a B9) it sufferers from the problems ant klingon battleship faces which I will cover in a video.
Going by the description in this video, its fatal flaw is that it is it doesn't make sense to combine an assault ship and a battleship as part of a fleet. An assault ship should be avoiding space battles, being protected by the battleships. Meanwhile, a battleship should be getting into it and blasting the enemy and taking hits else you are wasting a ton of firepower.
If you have fleets, you are better off having a dedicated battleship and a dedicated assault ship to put in those fleets. The only way a combined battleship / assault ship makes sense is if it operates alone (or with only small ships in support).
It's basically the same issue as the ideas about a battle-carrier in real life.
The reason for the positioning of the Federation's third nacelle was actually to provide the saucer warp capability. It was an interesting concept, but apparently found little use at the time as warp-capable subsections would not be tried again until the Prometheus-class more than a century later.
And the Federation-class (as well as the destroyer, scout, and tug) were originally in the TOS Technical Manual before Star Fleet Battles.
I ❤ the design of the Gemini. Hope in shows up somewhere again Star Trek.
Yamato class is an old fav! great vid :), its definitely a beast of a ship. You can play one in the old, "Star Trek Empires at War" video games.
TOS and Cage Era Battleships are a breed of their own, I say this as someone who made on for themselves and am still proud of her
Is she shared on TrekBBS or another site? Name or link please?
0:12 The B-10 from StarFleet Battles! Man, that was an awesome game. The rulebooks were not for the faint of heart though......
Now where's the Gorn Godzilla!?
@@ZlothZloth Hanging out with his cousin Apollo?
SFB is still available; Federation Commander is a reduced math version, and with an option for SSD's with around half the boxes...
Still have mine from the 80's. I never won
As a kid, watching TOS in syndication, every Starfleet fighting ship we saw was a Constitution. My impression was that the Connie was a rather standard exploratory ship, and the idea of there being bigger and meaner ships in Starfleet seemed natural. Of course, there are episodes countering this impression, the TOS episode "Tomorrow is Yesterday" establishes the number of (current) Connies at 12. The "Star Trek the Motion Picture" novelization has the Enterprise (at least the movie refit version) as being "at least a battleship". I always took that novelization seriously as it supposedly was written by Roddenberry himself, but the statement was a bit mind blowing to me at the time I read it.
However, one must consider that the original Constitution design was over 20 years old in TOS based on the idea of the semi-official launch date of 2245, and the Enterprise appearing in "The Cage" and clearly being in operation for some time by then. And, of course, from not being the prototype ship of the class. That Starfleet would be working on bigger and meaner battleships would make sense by the time of TOS; the Constitutions just being very successful, highly advanced in their day, and kept updated, larger designs just not really able to render them obsolete, but there being a parade of classes of small production runs or single ship prototypes that attempted to.
Anyway, the idea that 'of course an exploratory vessel has to be able to defend itself and handle multiple situations' carries a lot of weight with me, and explains why a long distance exploration ship might also double as a de-facto battleship.
I'm new to the channel, only been watching a couple months. Today I realized I get excited when you drop something new, my depression thanks you!
Always love the style of the TOS ships, like it better that the battle ships were far and few.
The Exeter Star Trek club here in the north east of England used to be a fictional dreadnaught class. As members we could be any branch of Starfleet. When I left due to family commitments our club had become two. The Exeter was based in Darlington/Newcastle and the Collinwood based in the town of Blyth.
When I left the Exeter was similar to the tri-nacelle Galaxy class. Being their fictional chief engineer I knew roughly how it functioned thanks to the manuals that you could get and I still have.
I also built a conversion of the Runabout that I named the Tees, that had a weapons pod instead of the sensor overhead pod.
I'm still building and converting models including the odd spaceships.
The Proxima class has been a favourite of mine, TOS and TMP era versions, since I first played Star Trek Legacy, beautiful ship and I loved the broadside cannons she had in that game!
Brother those guys would opening a severe case of whoop-ass on any enemy-starships
3:28 The 3 engine dreadnought was not designed by TFG for Star Fleet Battles (1979). It was designed for the Star Fleet Technical Manual that came out in 1975. It also appeared first in a game in 1977's Star Fleet Battle Manual.
As with much else online, people don't read the original books on the making of the series or they confuse source material, refer to later designs as TOS. I just left comment that it's clear by the shows creators and in the show itself that the Connie's are the big boys and called Heavy Star Cruisers because exploration is their business, warships in necessity. For Starfleets ethos 'battleship' is belligerent.
1977's SFBM is the retitle and expansion of Zocchi's 1972 Star Trek Battle Manual. In 1974, Zocchi got a license from FJD, and then suggested to SVC to contact FJD. (reference SFB designer's notes, the lawsuit notes in Nexus 18, and the entries on Boardgame Geek.)
I remember playing Klingon Academy and I manage to take out a Dreadnought class with a B'Prey lol. Maneuverability matters! Speaking of which, when are you going to start review ships from Klingon Academy. They have GREAT ships! Yamato class is a beautiful ship which I think is probably the successor to the Proxima class.
Six CDs...
The damn game was on six CDs, lol.
For those that havent played, late 90s and one of the best ever trek games.
@@danielboatright8887 wow didn't know that!
While the story is great a lot of the ships are touch and go although I did like the romulan firehawk.
My personal opinion of the story is that it does a great job of setting up the plot line for Star Trek six. And could have been used as a partial answer to the Klingons renewed strength later.
Spot on brilliant game the six cds were a drag though @@danielboatright8887
For the SNW final episode, the Federation desperately needs a battleship to combat the technologically superior Gorn.
Technologically differing Gorn not necessarily more advanced just weird enough so that normal feddie tech did not work great to start with but now that they are a threat the feds essentially cranked out mods and new stuff to counter it in a few months.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely well done and very well informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and form provided on this format and subject matter on the various different TOS Battle Ships, And the Federation Dreadnought class was always one of my favorite designs as per the Franz Joseph Starfleet technical Manuel of the early 70's with all the other Classes of Starship's with in the Manuel in accordance with the Matt Jeffries designs. And I myself have all the model resin kits of all those designs in various scales. Any ways a job very nicely well done indeed guys and explained by you Sir!,👌.
The Atlas seems to live up to the old saying, “Jack of all trades, master of none.”
Being a TOS kid and a retired Star Fleet Battles player. I have a fondness for the Dreadnought class and its successor the Mars class battleships. If you look at the Dreadnought as 150% and the Mars at 200% of the Constitution it makes sense. My personal favorite battleship of all times is John Payne's USS Coeur De Lion.
On the Atlas class, it looks like a TOS version of the Chimera class that Captain Nog commands during the Iconian war. It's something that I've noticed STO has been doing. They take a basic ship design, and then try to shoehorn in versions of the basic design to fit TOS, Disco, TMP, TNG, 25th Century, and future eras of Star Trek time periods. They haven't done that to every ship yet, but that seems to be the direction that they are going.
Atlas > Proxima.
Gemini > three other
Good luck resupplying that bloody thing and finding it a niche.
Bold words. {ensign…. raise shields}
@@nsr-ints Gemini or Atlas?
@@barrybend7189 Atlas
Atlas is the best visually executed version of this concept. It’s perfect. I want so badly for Cryptic to release a TMP skin for it.
I want them to release a legendary version that is not a lockbox ship.
@@nunya3163 oh yeah, absolutely. Lock boxes should not be a thing
The only one that looks like it belongs is the Federation class. FASA's designs all sucked. (Same for their Traveller ship designs, too.) It was, however, contested only by SFB. And if SFB does one thing well, it's keeping the ships looking like they're part of unified fleets... probably too well.
I didnt know there were this many from the TOS era...interesting.
Atlas Class my beloved ❤
The moment the Undiscovered lockbox came out, my heart was set on trying to get her for the longest time. Her chunky design immediately struck a chord with me, just had the look of a siege vessel, like a starship version of the T95 assault tank. So beefy, so over-engineered, it was perfect from a visual design point of view! She'll always have a place in my heart, whether she's beta canon or not. :D
TOS Battleships are chef's kiss. I like them big, I like them chunky. The Federation class would be under the command of a Commodore for sure? The Proxima, Gemini, Federation, Atlas, and also the honorable mention that is the Yorktown are my favorites. And it would've been awesome seeing these ships in a line formation slugging it out against the klingon equivalents in a Trafalgar style battle. Also here is the idea, what if the Yorktown-class Battleship was refitted into a Battlecruiser for the TOS era?
Yorktown wouldn't make it to TOS but maybe 4 years war.. just.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I did played the Yorktown-class in Star Trek Legacy during Kirk's era, well the two Yorktowns really struggled against the likes of the D7.
At Wolf 359 they had wished for dreadnoughts to help against the Borg in TNG
The ship, maybe a commodore as the flag captain, but the flag would be at least an RAdm for the accompanying battle line... almost no battleship in the wet navies went about without lesser ships.
I'm glad we share the same views on three-nacelled ships... especially regarding the Federation/Dreadnought-class and Galaxy-X.
I'm not well liked in several circles for hating on those two.
Also the Proxima is my favorite from the list. I'm a sucker for 4 nacelle designs, and with the interesting look that two engineering hulls makes, it just is perfect. May be slow, may be sluggish, but by god is it sexy
My only problem is the idea that each hull has a warp reactor…. With one powering the dorsal and one the ventral nacelles thats alot of crisscrossing going on
@@MrSheckstr no they power port and starboard respectively
Don't forget, the TOS Connies, according to Canon, had a lot of issues in various areas that led to the Constitution refit. But thanks for making this about the "heavy lifting" battle ships of the TOS.
What kind of issues? Frankly I think the original Connie is for its time better than the refit. Which had to make a number of design comprises
Shields, the initial installation of duo-tronics, and phasers. There's a few posts in YT about them.
Remember also 'Mister Scott's Guide to the Enterprise' mentions Dreadnaught class ones. And if one gets very picky, in Star Trek: The Motion Picture we see a schematic on a display showing a Dreadnaught deck plan (from Starfleet Battles).
Admittedly, whether Mister Scott's guide is canon is somewhat debatable, and background displays aren't always considered that - but there are references.
The game 'Klingon Academy' involves the deployment of heavy Battleships, them being restricted to core territories and only activated in time of war. Whether this is considered canon is again up in the air but that is a plot point - and a large tactical one as the cadets have to figure out how to engage them and discussions are rampant about them and their deployment.
That Klingon battleship makes me have a heady
Fun vid, i can really see the imagery you describe near the end of the vid, the defensive line, picturing battle scenes from ds9 but with these ships
Really wish we could get matchbox car style models of star trek ships
Federation Class forever!!!!!
All four of those battleships are intriguing designs. Conveying size and power. Just imagine a battle between such ships vs their Klingon and/or Romulan counterparts.
*play the song Dreadnought by Sabaton as the three powers do clash for control of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants*
3:30 No, the Federation-Class is from the Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual by Franz Joseph, copyright 1975/ Starfleet Battles is copyright 1979 and took the Federation-Class from the Technical Manual.
Although it's never stated explicitly that the Connies are the most powerful ships in TOS, dialogue in the Menagerie suggests that they are a huge leap forward in technology and capability, and dialogue in ... I think Assignment Earth, bluntly says there's only 12 of them. Suggesting that either the design is very niche and specialised, or that it's powerful enough that Star Fleet never expects to need more than one or two for any given problem, which in turn implies they're very powerful.
Also, I need to object to the comparision to the USN Constitution-class frigates from the age of sail. Those frigates were very powerful and larger than pretty much everyone else's frigates, yes, but they were also comparatively short-ranged and high-maintenance. The dedicated much more of their internal volume to weapons and ammunition than any RN Fifth- or Sixth-Rate frigate. Really, the USN Constitutions are more like German WW2 "pocket battleships" that cram a lot of combat power into a small hull because it's never going to be that far from port, and are pretty much the polar opposite of a Trek Connie, which is intended for extended independent operation.
You forgot the USS Iron Duke (Star Fleet Museum website). Only saw action during the Organian crisis, where it led the Federation battle fleet. Unable to be upgraded with the then new Linear Warp nacelles, it ended up as a large ship crew training vessel, preparing future crews for the Excelsior class starships that were under construction.
Also the USS Heston (Star Fleet Museum website) prototype heavy battle cruiser. This was the forerunner of the Federation class, being identical in appearance except for the omission of the third saucer mounted warp nacelle. It was found to have poor warp field geometry, which caused it to be slow and lacking in power reserves, due to the warp core installed. The USS Heston ended up as a large starship crew training vessel.
The USS Heston is very easy to simulate in Star Fleet Battles or the PC version, Star Fleet Command. Simply change the movement cost from 2 down to 1.5 and remove the 15 warp energy boxes for the centre saucer nacelle, to create a starship that can barely move, when charging up all of its weapons or reinforce its shields.
The SFB Federation Class was taken from the original Star Fleet Tech Manual by Franz Josef Designes
The USS Federation is a Franz Joseph Design from the original Star Fleet Technical Manual... This is the source for Star Fleet Battles.
Hello VGM =^^=
Thank you for another fun video. Had some thoughts to add to the conversation.
Atlas:
In regards to the fleet mission role and ship type this vessel would fulfill. With Marines, presumably assault craft, and supporting naval weapons support systems aboard, she would very much fit a modern fleet mission role of a Landing Assault command platform (think LHDs in the USN).
You are correct that she would would only be effective in a assaultgroup accompanied by battlegroups and or strikegroups which could screen the assaultgroup, thereby, allowing them to carry out their mission objectives in deploying landing forces.
Atlas class capital ships would require lighter capital and cruiser displacement landing assault ships with the same capabilities. These ship types would force multiply the assaultgroup's mission capabilities, mobility, and ability to expand their mission operations tempo if required (IE hit more bad things like a crazy game of space wack a mole) lol.
Though in all honesty, if one wanted to type the Atlas class as an assault battleship, it could be done. She would be carrying out the same fleet mission role as a landing command ship, just with a lot more guns..........eh, I mean "motivation" aboard.
In fact it would be cool to have an assaultgroup be composed of 1 Landing Command Ship, 1 Landing Assault Battleship, 2 Landing Platform Ships, and 2 to 4 escort ship types (DD and or FF). This configuration would allow the group command to break off the assault battleship with one other landing platform ship and an escort or two to flank a landing zone or to assault a second landing zone if needed.
Tiger vs MBTs:
A visually similar example to the Tiger II super heavy is the E50 MBT, later used by the Bundeswerh in the 50's when West Germany needed an MBT. Structurally the E50 looks very much like a Tiger II, especially her hull. Like the example you gave, even though they look very similar, they are very very different weapons platforms.
Again, enjoyed your enthusiasm and hard work in producing another vid. Cheers.
You got the origin wrong for the Federation class, but that's been litigated already. You also misunderstood what the nacelles were FOR in SFB and Federation Commander, but that's been mentioned too. You should think in terms of the Saladin class, the Constitution class, and the Federation class. The Constitution class with it's 2 nacelles (generating power because that is how SFB worked) has a good set of weapons, good torpedoes and more than enough power to make use of them. It's a good, balanced design. The Saladin class has the same weapons, and half the power. Good for a single strike but it can't sustain it (it has to recharge so to speak). The Federation class has 150% of the power the Connie has and that allows it to hit incredibly hard and absorb a ton of damage. It really is a monster in the SFB world. As SFB understands the systems (from the Star Fleet Battle Manual) all three are great ships and the Federation class is truly a great battleship, maybe the best in the game (if not the toughest). It's equivalent to the C8 Klingon Dreadnought with its third nacelle but I prefered the Fed class. I believe the Federation class was shown briefly on the bridge displays of the original cast movies. And I believe it was shown in "Of Gods and Men", the youTube Star Trek movie (which wasn't canon obviously but included a lot of actual Star Trek actors and good special effects).
Now maybe later games have had differing ideas on how power systems worked (and later series and movies) but you have to judge these ships by the era they were in. The Excelsior ships weren't licensed for the SFB game but were kind of the equivalent of the Federation class, but in the movie era. FASA was licensed for the Excelsior but not the Federation class.
Those were the last games which tried to SIMULATE starship battles on a mapboard. Star Trek Attack Wing was a fun game but it was more fast and loose and much more abstracted. The Federation class isn't represented and the Excelsior is such an old ship it's not competitive anymore. The battleship of the NG is probably the Sovereign class (or Prometheus class with it's 5 nacelles -- we can guess that they don't think they generate the power and they are not all used except when it's in pieces). And the Galaxy X which IS in Star Trek Attack Wing as a technically non Federation ship (with 3 nacelles, I think as a nod to the Federation class). Frankly that ship makes no sense unless you DO get more power with the third nacelle. I suppose you might get more speed but it's tough to say.
In ST: Legacy from '06 they have the Proxima class along with its refit that's HEAVILY inspired by the Excelsior (plus the Excelsior version of the Miranda). Big and a little slow but has phasers & torpedoes for days. Not to mention having two engineering sections give it Ambassador levels of shields.
It's not the size of the Starship it's how you use it!
Or at least that's what I keep telling myself
To be honest, I think very large stationary defenses and very small in ships makes the most sense for a defensive side of Star Fleet.
No need for warp, which means no massive reactor, which means smaller ships are an option.
So, at home, you have swarms of sublight ships, and abroad, you have small numbers of large warp ships.
Good stuff. Only disappointed the Yamato wasn't in there. Oh, the good old days of Star fleet command 2...
How about a episode on dedicated carriers from pre TOS to post Dominion war?
You read my mind ;)
Interestingly, the Proxima class must've been deemed successful enough to receive a refit towards the end of the 23rd Century (TMP era). There were at least four such ships refit to those specifications: USS Bismarck, USS Nimitz, USS Philadelphia, and USS Ticonderoga. Of course it almost certainly would've been restricted under the Khitomer Accords, keeping it from potentially stealing Excelsior's thunder as Starfleet's big stick in that era.
I wouldn't put it that way. Remember TMP refits are happening around 2270. Excelsior won't be launched until 85 and won't enter full production until 89/90. So proxima 2 would serve as a stopgap. But Excelsior was better in every way.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Not to mention being overkill for a peacetime fleet. Still, it's kinda entertaining to imagine what a Proxima-style ship using Excelsior parts would've been like. It'd be an utterly impractical monster of a ship, but there's a part of me that can't help but cackle like a madman at the thought.
I think Visually the STO designs, the Atlas and the Gemini are the best and I could see the Atlas as a big bruiser and the Gemini filling that "fast battleship" roll that appeared for a short while.
Him saying don't call it Folly class cracked me up, i watch that channel too.
I quite like the Atlas, even if it is a bit too chunky.
I rather like the Federation class. After all, it obviously entered production if Entente 2120 was in service by TMP (whenever that movie is set). And the Star League 2101 was in service according to beta canon at least until Wolf 359.
question for you vemon, in strange new worlds at the end of season one we get a glimse of an aulternate blance of terror were the romulan empire invades a tos era fedration. the show kind of hand waves it away but how do you see such a war being fought and how devasating is it really?
I was thinking about King Tiger before you mentioned it in the video ironically.
I always viewed the federation class like the Bismarck. A pocket battleship.
YES TO THE SIR!
Love odd nacelle designs :) my favorite are the one nacelle scouts and destroyers
HAHHAhAH NOT THE FOLEY DESIGN. TriAngulum Audio Studios got a little spicey with me when i confused the foley class with the dreadnaught lol.
these battleships were for the most part defensive short range craft then Starfleet decided that they wanted a standard battleship a type with long range capabilities.
What are your thoughts on the Ranger Class Battlecruiser? I personally could see it as this mid-range planetary defense vessel meant to defend Federation planets/territory along the boarders. Perhaps not the most successful in its original role but its lineage and tactical role inspiring a split in doctrine with the Miranda rollbar for lighter ships and even the Matsumoto/Kusanagi class vessels
medium cruiser, i would say. tactical and shorter missions vs the connies which are heavy cruisers and can do 5 yr missions.
I like the Federation Class and never noticed anything about "warp field geometry" in anything I read about it. The Excelsior Class was also originally referred to as a "Star Dreadnaught" in a few publications.
Which makes a lot of sense as it was a game changer like HMS dreadnought
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Something about Excelsior screams "warship" at me for some reason. I think its lines are "aggressive" looking in a way that the Starfleet cruisers' aren't. I've always preferred Starfleet to be a military force that does science and exploration stuff rather than a science and exploration force that does military stuff. I know plenty of trekkies would disagree but that's just my preference. I love TNG mostly but I hate the "yachts in space" period of Starfleet. There is no way to justify the extreme size of the Galaxy Class other than utopian extravagance. Something Roddenberry loved but I eschew.
The TOS era battleships as seen on STO were never seen in the series. Would have been cool. Fans can see them in Star Trek Fan series.
In a defensive war, the gemini and proxima class would likely pair well. the proxima does her thing and the enemy breaks upon her wall of shields and guns, and before they know what to do the gemini's warp in and rush in, causing utter chaos and confusion as they obliterate command ships and just dont stop, allowing the rest of the fleet to regroup and charge. well... minus the proxima. she'll help out when she gets there guys, dont worry!
@Venom Geek Media, I like the Galaxy-X and the phaser lance :)
Great video on a very interesting subject. Though, one though on federation battleships, that although existing in the fleet, I always felt the reason we don't really see much of them during the TOS era, is that the constitution class, although a heavy cruiser, produced in large numbers, effectively does the role of the battleship when it comes to facing up against the heavier units that the Klingons and Romulans could throw at them, short of a full scale war.
I could see the Federation doing something post Wolf 359 like strapping nacells to a ESD design mounting multiple planetary defence phaser lances would carve up a Cube fairly quickly
I like the appearance of the Atlas. Though I understand what you're saying.
4:15 How dare you slander the Galaxy X, I will indeed fight you over those claims.
Great video!
I really love the design of the Atlas class I think its the best TOS Battleship design.
But I agree the ship feels like Star Fleet engineers where trying to build the Excelsior class before the tech was available.
And maybe that was the case Star Fleet probably wanted a front line Exploratory Battleship, but because the tech wasn’t there the class became a failure.
Ok, the excelsior class is a battle cruiser in canon meant to replace the constitutuon class
1. Reason: the klingon empire was a very real and a very heavy ship would mean alot of resources were needed to counter one.
2. Rarity: the Enterprise ran 350 people on it and a battleship ups that by three classes (battle cruiser, dreadnought, and battleship) so minimum triple the crew. The next is fuel and production cost, these behemoths ate dilithium like cheap candy and were a pain to produce and retrofit when new tech became available, this made one in production currently in need of a full refit on completion to be combat effective.
Fighting stance: a battleship is power projection in star trek, not a fighting platform. It COULD go to war but if she sank it would devastate morale, so it was a propoganda piece to keep overly aggresive species afraid of the federations strike capability. This beast could fight large ships but frigates could run rings around a battleship and a large ship cant turn worth a damn so as a frigate you got in a battleships weakest firing arcs, did some damage and gtfo before you lost warp capability. Your superior acceleration into warp gave you hit and run potential. So a Battleship NEEDS a fleet to function or its scrap by a thousand needles.
The Proxima class ships are quite impressive and would make great command ships for core world fleets which is likely what they were used for. If I were a starship captain, I'd be honoured to be the captain of one of those beasts.
The other battleship types were also impressive in different ways though it's too bad about the Atlas class ships being deeply flawed. They'd work well in a fleet of different ship types supporting each other with them being the big guns that kill the bigger ships of the enemy fleet while being protected by the smaller ships from smaller enemy craft.
Bigger isn't always better but there IS a time and place for bigger ships in combat.....
I see the Atlas veing like a seige breaker. It punches through a blockade to drop supplies and reinforcements, and has the durability to survive that attempt, while other elements of a formantion engage hostile elements to distract or try to break through themselves.
Give me a Dreadnought every time!
I would imagine in TOS battleships were used like the Home Fleet in World War I, they stuck close to home and would rarely leave Federation core worlds. Ships like the Enterprise would be like Cruisers scouting out the far flung oceans.
It’s the conclusion we reached on a Reddit conversation we had on the subject. The dreadnoughts of the Federation were probably lead by a commodore or low ranking admiral and sat in a space dock or large star bases if they weren’t out training. They could probably handle a wing of D7s on their own that had pierced their way deep in the Federation, with the assistance of planetary defences.
Alas they were designed for a war that never came and Starfleet moved away from ‘expected war’ philosophy after Khitomer. Much like their real life counterparts, they never saw the action for which they were designed before the match of technology made them obsolete.
f there was something bigger than a Connie closer to the core worlds, then where was it when all those giant alien threats came visiting Earth?
Undergoing maintenance;)
Good information!!
What would you consider the Achilles class from Dominion Wars?
Based on what you're saying @Venom Geek Media 98, I wonder if the Atlas class was supposed to be something like the T95 or Tortoise superheavy tanks, built for a singular mission(Maybe assaulting and beating down the defenses of a coreworld of the Klingon Empire if the Federation went back to war with the Klingons only thanks to the Organians they never went to war.) but it was so over large that it just wasn't practical for use outside of that very narrow mission. For those who don't know the T95 (USA) or Tortoise(UK) were superheavy tank projects to break through the Siegfried Line and into Germany, which ultimately were not needed and were just too big for any other use.
I am curious on your views on the 26th century dreadnought ships and the 29th-31st century federation time ships
TriAngulum kind of made the Atlas Class, in his story, out to be an iteration on the Constitution class that the Top Brass hoped would work. It ultimately failed in every regard and was the main source of phlogging the Public would dish out to Starfleet at the time. Of course, this is because the Atlas Class was trying to use (then) conventional technology when it should've been a statement of the future and using all the new technology that would ultimately give the Enterprise a new lease of life. Speaking of, the public absolutely refused to give the Atlas Class a second chance. It wasn't spared from any amount of criticism and wouldn't get the refit it so desperately needed. So Starfleet was forced to dismantle all of that class of ship and use them for scrap in the construction of new vessels like the Miranda's and Constellation's and a new wave of Constitution's.
I'd partially agree although I don't think it would ever reach full production. But the main idea was to basically doing a modern take on yorktown only to discover they had reached the limit of that spaceframe
Cool video.
Thanks for the info
Love to hear your thoughts on these;
Mars Class Battleship
Essex Class Battleship by Bill Kruse
Kodiak class Battleship from Jackill's Starfleet Reference Guide
IRL battleships are maintenance nightmares, and I see these ships all having the same issue. I don't see any of these classes numbering more than 6 ships, except the Federation and Proxima classes. Those might number a dozen at most.
I’ve still got the plastic Federation ships that Franz Joseph sold for their dreadful games. I saw them advertised in the back of Dragon Magazine before I even knew there were games for Star Trek. That would have been around 1979-80. Though I didn’t buy the glow-in-the-dark versions. I got into SFB almost immediately upon seeing it and that cemented it my mind. So for me the tri-engined Dreadnought is THE Federation’s BB.
"It hits bloody hard!"
The 3rd Warp Nacelle of the Federation Class was entirely about power. The Nacelles were a part of the primary power system of those designs, so that 3rd one represented a 50% power increase. And for the design philosophy it came from a Dreadnaught is actually smaller than a battleship.
Also now do a video on the Akira lineage. The Ranger, Matsumoto, Akira, Armitage and Alita.
I second that
I would LOVE a look at the Yamato-class. Its my favorite ship from Starfleet Command.
3:31 Nope, it is a Star Fleet Technical Manual ship, designed by Franz Joseph Schnaubelt and first printed in 1975. Star Fleet Battles came out in 1979.