I just always assumed that "K'tinga" was the proper Klingon name for the D7 because, let's face it, the letter "D" and the number "7" are not Klingonese. Therefore, I logically assumed that "D7" was the Federation designation for the K'tinga-class of ship.
This is my thought process as well. Designations for the enemy vehicles would not match the name said enemy assigned them. It would be later, after the designation was widely in use, that the actual vehicle designation would be learned and it would take a bit to disseminate and come to be used by the forces at large. This is how it happened in history. It makes me wonder, what did the Klingons call the constitution class, what designation did they give it at first? I love Klingon stuff, its always so brutal in its design language, compared to the Romulans and their penchant for edgy looks. For a while the Vor'cha was my favorite Klink ship, with the Tor'Kaht non-canon variant just enrapturing me... Speaking of raptors, I always liked the Klingon "raptor" class ships. Sleek and predatory, yet not as flimsy looking as BoPs, at least to me.
That "'k'tinga" is the Klingon name for the ship that the Federation called the D-7 is the most sensible notion to me. The ships got more detail because it was needed for the models in TMP, but they're supposed to be the same ships we saw in TOS. C In fact in VOYAGER, in one episode Voyager comes across a ship of Klingons whose families started travelling to the Delta quadrant some 80 years prior. The ship model used is the K'tinga model originally built for TMP, and Tuvok identifies it as a D-7 in the show
They basically attack and fight in battle the very same way as the Old German U-boat packs used to do the more numbers on your side the better chance of successfully winning and surviving any fight indeed!.
I think in the original idea of the movie of 1,2,3&6 they were bastardized from the original. It’s just funny to think about. 😂. I’m laughing at it too. I don’t know how they did it. But they did. Back then Gene Roddenberry in Hollywood was doing lots of things to save money. But Gene Roddenberry wanted to do a totally new enterprise. There’s a guy called the mystic here on TH-cam. Where he made new Enterprise A. U know remember what happened to the Constitution Class refit Advanced class in Star Trek III. So he made look like the Excelsior class.
Amt made some pretty good kits. (Cat helped/pushing it off the shelf)😂 My rebuilt model I enlarged the bow, Fiber optics and lighting. Painting and Masking took 3 phases and all. Grey green w/t rusting & streaking Corrosion finished the entire process model. Thanks for the Post @Del Brown
My headcanon was that "D7" is a Starfleet designation and K'Tinga is the Klingon name for it. We have something like this in real life. And the changes are just due to refits, like how the Constitution received refits.
My stupid headcanon is that the K'tinga size variants are the same as the BoPs, and that Klingon Quartermasters have to fight ritual duels to the death if they get the wrong spare parts.
Size discrepancies are due to inept camera crews. The size is always the same, they just use forced perspective to try to cram as much crap into a single frame as possible.
in wwii the germans had to station guards along spare part trains because they were so vital and in short supply individual tank units would stage raids so they could get parts
The D-7 is a SERIES of ship designs. The version in the original series was the known by the Federation as the D-7A, aka the "K't'agga" in Klingon. The version seen in ST-TMP was the D-7G, or "K'tinga" in Klingon. The version seen in ST-6 was the D-7M (and I can't recall the designation in Klingon.) It's like talking about comparing a 1969 Mustang, 1995 Mustang, and a 2015 Mustang. All are the same base designation, and share design features in common, but are also quite different.
Not strictly canon but the 90's game "Starfleet Academy" has the D7 as the original Klingon ship and the D7-A a refit that had the Romulan cloaking device.
@@TheCormTube True... but the "three characters" thing was created by a then-fan who later held a major production role on TNG. The battle cruiser model built by Matt Jefferies had a three character making on either nacelle pylon. This was the only "canon" klongon language at that time. Duting TOS, the battlecruiser was defined, only once, as a "D7," of course. But in the mid-70s, Rick Sternbach and a couple of friends created a "fan pub" which included a full Klongon alphabet which was built off of that set of markings on the filming model. It was rapidly accrpted by fandom ss "official" and was used on TMP and ST3, making it official. (Later on, during TNG, a "script" version of the language was created, appearing more " hand-writable," and that sort of took over as the "official Klingon font" in most usage.) The original Klingon alphabet, however, explicitly defines the markings on the TOS ship as reading "D7A." And given that this was later canonized, that means that the TOS shop literally said "D7A" above each nacelle! Of course, Matt never intended to define his lettering, so whether you acccept this depends on whether you give "original designer intent" sole authority, or accept later modifications to that intent. Me, I have that font in my PC and like to use it at times... I'm quite fond of that font! 😉 But yeah, the other designations, I borrow from FASA with only the slightest modifications, based upon info which didn't exist when FASA wrote that. For instance, the version of the D-7 seen in "Trials and Tribblations" is subtly different from the TOS ship, with panel detailing and a few other TMP-ish details, so I treat that as an upgraded model... say, the D-7C? It's all make believe, but a huge part of the fun of being a fan is trying to make it all make real-world sense. 👍
My head canon was formed by reading the novelization of Star Trek the Motion Picture. The book really made the K'tinga sound like a larger, heavier, more armored and far more heavily armed cruiser than the D7. So much so, that I've been confused by the 'It's just an upgraded D7' concept. The K'tinga was also meant to be a frightening jump forward, so mush so that its existence was supposedly one of the reasons for the extensive Enterprise refit, which transformed the Enterprise into a essentially a whole new ship. Anyway, I'd personally go with the largest scale concept, otherwise, I'd go with the size that fits the D7 scale best.
I personally am more partial to the 230 meter length, because I never really thought that the K’Tinga was simply a refit but rather a “new” class of ship all together- but not a “new” class of ship in the way we would understand it- more like how the T-72 was a “New” class of tank that happened to be strikingly similar to older MBTs- I feel like the K’Tinga is the same way and that would explain the slight proportion changes you get at the 230 meter length *edit* Especially since they sold all of their D-7s to the Romulxans
My head canon was that the D7 is a KTInga covered with a necessary composite phaser refracting armor, like the rubber tiles on submarines. Then tech advanced, making this redundant, so they stripped it off, reducing those ships in size by a few meters.
I love your takes on Star Trek ships and lore, thanks for all the videos. Before now I wasn't aware of the term razee, but that was always my head cannon for the K'tingas that show up later on DS9
Nice job as usual, and I like the idea of paralleling D7-K'Tinga development with soviet tanks. And I share your thoughts on the matter for the most part, new tech and new methods of fighting lead to new looks and new style. PS: It's K'Tonga!
my head canon is the klingons were absurdly loyal to the d7 template. Only doing minor increases in size and capability to power creep the ship for the threats they faced as the years went on eventually reaching the 350 meter variant noted in the ds9 manual for the last up sized version before being forced to invent the Vor'cha to match off the feds ambassador. only to fall behind again and then invent the negh'var to match the galaxy. Pride for the 'tried and true' concept finally buckling under the sheer necessity of 'lets show them we can also make something new.'
That actually makes sense, especially since this would be easier for the Klingons to simply reuse and rebuild the same ships without much physical or technical changes as if psyching out the Federation and Romulan opponents they likely faced
I always thought the K'tinga not as a refit but as new model of D7. But rather than being just a D7a, it's considered different enough to be it own ship type. Like how the t-55 is considered a different tank model than the t-54, despite it appearing as simply a newer variant. Or maybe it's like the TA-152 and the FW-190. In any case I've always been annoyed by those who have tried to erase the original appearance of the TOS D7. They consider the K'tinga as what the D7 really looked like. But I love that original stark sleek greeblie-free look of the original D7. I think remastered TOS did pretty good job with the ship.
I think they just took the basic form of the D-7 and redesigned it from the frame up into the K'tinga. Drach can tell you all about how we Americans reused the same basic cruiser hull to build several different classes of cruisers in the 1930's. In modern ships, the first Nimitz-class carriers are very different from the last ones built, some of which are bigger than their older sisters but still classified as Nimitz-class. The Klingons seem enamored with this hull form as they can even be seen in Enterprise....I know, only one episode but it still makes it cannon.
The K'tingas are D7.15, D7.24, & D7.56. With regard to size, I 'm partial to the K'tinga being in equal length or slightly longer than the D7. Also, the K'tinga being an early form of KDF cruiser pack hunting in contrast to lone warrior D7s is a neat notion.
I always loves SFB and the way they made the klingon Saber Dance! Using superior fire arcs manueverability and range to effectively snipe an enemy to death at range.
A real example from the Age of Sail was the Spanish ship of the line _Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad_ which was launched in 1769. In 1795-96 it was refitted by adding a fourth deck which was done by closing the gap between the forecastle with the quarterdeck and this enabled its firepower to be increased from 112 guns to 130. It was the largest, most armed warship in the world for a time and was lost at the Battle of Trafalgar.
@@snyderec3952 Except the K'tinga is a whole new ship while the COnnie Refit is just a refit. The Klingons just took the basics of the D7 and used better tech in the K'tinga, maybe a little bigger but not by much. THey still fill the same role. Standard ship of line with the B'rel as a small attacker.
yeah the old Fasa Star trek universe. The role playing game ect, The D7a was in the old show. The D7 series is D7 a through S if I remember. The A is the old show, the motion picture is a M, The one in the next generation is a S. The S had a cloaking devise. The A only had four disrupters Two forward port and two forward starboard.No other weapons.The M had stronger disrupters and one forward and one aft torpedoes. I still have all my recognition manuals some ware.
I actually can get behind the idea of the K'Tinga being a cut down, more maneuverable, development of the D7 and using a new fleet based doctrine. Possibly one thing that shaped the design and doctrine of the K'Tinga was the development of the shaped charge photon torpedo. Basically the Klingons developed it, then began thinking of ways to use it most efficiently, and the Battlecruiser Guild basically started redesigning the D7 to use the new torpedoes as its main armament, while also taking into account new developments from Starfleet and new requirements issued by the Imperial Navy and the High Council. The Klingons also probably kept an eye on the Constitution Refit program and likely realized they would not be able to meet it one on one(They probably read over the Records of Battle of every ship that engaged a Constitution and survived so they were very well aware of how the D7 stacked up to Starfleets premier cruiser.) So the High Council and the Battlecruiser Guild went "Until we can build a Constitution killer, which will take time to design, build, and get into service in sufficient numbers, why not build a simplified, easier to build variant of the D7, arm it with the new torpedoes so it can pound down the Constitution from outside its effective range and build enough of them to make up for individual lack of capability with numbers and mutual support.
@@TheAncientAstronomer huh. Well, my main on STO is gonna finally have level 20 Cannon R&D in about... uh... 19 hours. Then I gotta switch focus to whatever my second highest skill is.
I'm in the slightly bigger school of thought for the K'Tinga and up armored. The question about the armaments package is interesting, and in my head cannon, while the frontal arc was the most powerful, the side and rear arc are not undefended with the expectation of the birds of prey. One point you failed to mention is the improved sensors and fire control system which allows the K'Tinga to attack multiple targets. In my head cannon before that secondary sensor would allow the D7 to at least defend itself in the enemy flanked them.
For what it's worth, the Star Fleet Battles guys are engineers/Veterans & using the only deck plans available at the time & protractors to determin firing arcs, came up with the stats for the D-7s. An interesting quirk that the noticed was that all the "Phaser" (or as you called them "Light Disruptors") also had line of sight/firing arcs directly below & also to the rear of the D-7. This led to the idea that Klingons must like to "Run over" enemy vessels as part of swooping arcs. The creators of SFB called this the "Klingon Saber Dance". As seen in the show a few times, the Klingon vessel charges the Enterprise firing, flying over them still firing & then circling around to come at them again.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely greatly wonderfully well done and very nicely informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and format spectacularly provided on "What is the K'tinga (Thats not a D'7.)", And on the various differences with in their designs and modifications and on their weapons systems and shielding availability and on their main engines, And on their main purpose for their various duties and missions required of them in battle and so forth and so on; Anyways a job very nicely greatly fabulously well done as always indeed Sir!👌.
For people wondering how size changes can happens for ships of the same line. Well real world examples exist. In WW2 many countries would put in orders for ships. And say the first 5 off the line are the same but the figure out some things they could improve. So the next 5 off the line they make the changes. But the a new weapon is needed to be fit, so the next 5 off the line have their hulls expanded to fit the new stuff. The work out the errors on those 5 and then the NEXT 5 they put the changes into them. Then say the first 5 are brought back in for upgrades etc. You get like 20 ships of the same line and class. But ever 5 or so have a tone of layout or load out changes. And Refits etc. Then after that line of ships had had service for a while. They need to replace them. So they incorporate all those things they learned into the FRESH FROM THE GROUND UP run and you get a slimmer and sleeker ship with all the fat trimmed off. And the process repeats itself.
In SFB, we call the tactics required to exploit the weapons mix of the Klingons (especially the D7) the “Klingon Saber Dance”. When your opponent does it to you it is very frustrating but beautiful to watch
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Same. A; to differentiate it more from starfleet and the Romulans, and B; to make it look like an actual ship rather than a prop. I think I'll end up going with the D7 if I do get a model. It represents when the Klingons were truly a force to be reckoned with, arguably more so than they've ever been since then; and I personally would rather captain a ship designed for self reliance than one designed for group tactics, like the Constitution itself
I just assumed the K'tinga was a refit, like the Constitution. The Constitution Class wasn't renamed after the refit. To that end, I also just assumed that D7 was the Starfleet classification, though Discovery kinda threw that theory under the bus. Lol
Maybe the initial prototypes were fitted into the latter variants of the D7 for testing the new components. It's a good guess before the K'Tinga went into serial production.
I would think it might like the T-62 vs T-72. Technology and doctrine lead to a slightly small vessel meant to simplify and cheapen design, while providing some improvements to the design. The changes might have been showing the first strains of the unsustainability of their military costs that lead to the Praxis moon explosion. The greebling of the k'tinga could possibly be something akin to the adoption of ERA armor to partially counter the improving technology of the Federation's phaser's - extra (treated) albative plating that saves on energy costs (as weight is not so much a factor in space except in changing momentum). As you mentioned, the klingons also changed from single privateer-like hunters (seeking individual glory) where manuevers and tactics were highly valued to pack hunters who work in unison with gunboats that can strike from any angle.
I agree with you on the D7 class' specifications. As for the K'tinga class' specifications, I agree that 215m makes sense as well. As for the weapons of both ships I think they were pretty much the same except the heavy disruptors. The following armaments list will explain. D7 class 2 standard disruptors. Underneath the ford command module. 2 standard disruptors Underneath the shoulders. 2 Dull disruptor batteries, 1 on the port wing and 1 on the starboard wing. 2 standard disruptors aft. 1 forward torpedo launcher. and 2 warp nacelle mounted heavy disruptor cannons K'tinga class 2 standard disruptors. Underneath the ford command module. 2 Dull disruptor batteries, 1 on the port wing and 1 on the starboard wing. 2 Standard disruptors aft. 1 forward and 1 aft torpedo launcher. 2 less powerful heavy disruptors cannons replacing the 2 standered shoulder mounted disruptors. No warp nacelle mounted heavy disruptor cannons due to needing more efficient warp nacelles
The comparison between D-7 and K'Tinga would be something like T-72 versus T-80: they look very similar but are fundamentally different ships, the K'Tinga like the T-80 being a more advanced, refined and better equipped with sensors ans electronic devices.
I agree with your analysis, all the differences between the D -7 and the K'tinga. As a player of the awesome board game Star Fleet Battles, I loved using Klingon ships for slashing attacks. Human by birth. Klingon by choice
This is a very fun example of how approach changes outcome. The argument of the video is an "in lore" one that tries to explain differences in appearance from an in universe point of view. I remember an article which I sadly can't find just now, about the development process of The Motion Picture movie. As far I remember the ship in question was just called "Klingon Cruiser" at that time and production of the model was so hasty that they attached the neck turned upside down by accident. Don't remember if that was reversed before filming. So, this can all be explained from a movie production perspective as well, as lore was very thin back in 1979. As far my research turned up, most of the Klingon lore plus the name K'Tinga stems from the novels by John M. Ford who started writing Star Trek novels in 1984. Just thought that might be interesting for some.
Personal headcannon, the K'tinga started as a testbed/stopgap upgrade package to the D7 like the Federation did with the Constitution refit, but due to lack of resources and having other priorates following the Praxis disaster they cancelled or suspended their Excelsior equivalent next generation ship and took the cheaper alternative of expanding the upgrade package into a new ship class that due to it's similarity to the D7 would require only minimal updates to manufacturing facilities and tooling to put into full production. The K'Tinga then proved "Good enough" that along with the Empire still recovering they stuck with it until just before the TNG show era when things like the Galaxy and D'deridex coming into service forced them to start producing the Vor'cha, which they'd had sitting on the back burner for a while, and to start developing the Negh'Var which assuming creating new ship class would take a number of years, means that when the dominion war kicked off the first prototype was just about ready and became Gowron's flagship. .
The problems I have with the K'tinga, which I think is an awesome looking design, is that the bow port was originally the deflector dish on the D-7. It's a natural port for a torpedo launcher, but A) it's really big for a torpedo port unless you're launching really big torpedoes and B) where then is the deflector dish?
So there's no reason the torpedo has t o be small. Real life torps are big and I wish trek gave them more weight. But you could also reason ite bigger because the launcher has an accelerator barrel. As for the deflector... this is the same era as miranda so you don't need dishes
@@venomgeekmedia9886 or just like fighter craft and nose cones. There's a dish under there and you just can't see it and the radio waves have no trouble passing through it. Maybe exposed ones get you a tiny bit more power? And some designs opt for that? Pretty sure the Miranda Class has a deflector dish somewhere.... 🤷
I think either size works because the Empire still had individual house fleets & patronage Great House manufacturing. House X & House Y both get to make a K'Tinga but there's no 'real' centralization in terms of manufacturing standards so sizes, interiors etc are all subject to what house built it at the time. You can use the Soviet analogy of how T-34's would sometimes look & act wildly different depending on which agricultural plan made them during WW2
I really believe that the K'TIngas were just D7 refits. It's cheaper and easier to revamp and overhaul an old series a ship to do new things rather than trying to build a brand new fleet. So the 230m is most believable. It's just the refits they made didn't change the appearance too much like the Connie refits did. The refits were so good they kept them for another 100 years before being replaced bu the Vor'cha and later the Neg'Var classes. There were still a few connies still serving in Starfleet during TNG too if you'd remember.
I'm partial to the slightly up sized version, my thought was the K'tinga has that honking power hungry plasma torpedo launcher in the nose that they got from the Romulan tech exchange and could not retrofit it into the existing D7 so they built a new ship using the proven D7 hull form. The Romulans also did this with the D7 tech they acquired from the Klingons. I would imagine that something about the hull form gives it an advantage in its warp geometry.
During TOS it always seemed like the Klingons or Romulans would need two D7's to be a match for a Constitution class starship or three to be at an advantage. While I have not checked the lore websites on this, it would make sense to me that this could prompt the Klingon high command to initiate an upgrade program of their fleet in order to bring them up to parity if not out-match their Federation foes on a per unit basis. This could then prompt the Federation to in turn start upgrading its fleet in a 'cold war arms race' which explains why in TMP there were already at least 3 K'tinga's fielded against V'ger while the Enterprise was still receiving its re-fit. At that point the power balance is re-dressed with the enhanced capabilities of the Constitution and newer Starfleet designs (such as the Miranda and upcoming Excelsior classes) leading the Klingons back to relying on 'wolf-pack' tactics.
In a fair bit of ST lore; a single Federation Heavy Cruiser (USS Enterprise for example) was a match for 3 D7s. The K'Tinga is a Heavy Cruiser variant of the D7 (which is closer to a light cruiser, in naval terms), meant to match a Fed Heavy Cruiser. So increased size and stronger firepower is the result.
The concept of a Razee is very interesting imo. Of course not all ships would be suitable for that, but som Starfleet ships i could see would benefit once they are a little bit outdated, but still to good to throw away. For example, in the first half of the 25th century one could razee the Galaxy Class and replace the Saucer with a smaller one or remove it completely and keep only the Stardrive section. By doing that you would get a very powerful and nimble platform for border patrols or skirmish operations. Just an idea.
Didn't they actually do that, but in the Kirk era? A gunship, that had a hull like the Enterprise, but a very small saucer section, filled with guns (no torpedoes, I think). Something made during the war, and then never again after that. Like a stop-gap measure.
@@nealsterling8151 I don't remember. I think it was mentioned in regards to Harry Mudd and a disgruntled customer (that chased after him in one of those ships)? It was years ago, i just don't remember where I saw it or heard it. Could have been from a book.
I see the K'Tinga more as a continuation of the class but with an update to fit new requirements. Not necessarily undergoing a "Refit" on existing ships. I think of it more along the lines of naval ships that have long production lines like the Arleigh Burke destroyer which has a number of batches that see an increase in size, displacement and design changes as a requirement for that comes into being.
To me it seems like they could have both come from the project but just built to meet different imperial needs. The D7 only being used as a long range patrol ship by the great houses which is why they were meant to operate alone and we see them in TOS set mostly in the frontier of the two factions, were as the K'Tinga being saved for the main KDF fleets which would have been small due to the still developing centralisation so most likely would have been kept back in case of a major incursion, or for a planned invasion.
Alright, well this is certainly a well put together delve into the Differences / Similarities between the D-7 and K'Tinga Class Ships. With this said... K'Tinga transliterates to Klingon [Game] Hunter., which in Federation Naval Terms would be a "Hunter-Destroyer" or just "Destroyer" Class. Sometimes this will be followed up by the version number... i.e. K'Tinga Jav (Destroyer Mark 6, or D-6)., or K'Tinga Soch (Destroyer Mark 7 or D-7) Now the confusion with Klingon Ships, such-as their Classifications, Names, etc. stems from two root issues. First and Foremost is that communication or more accurately intelligence., is acquired by both sides as translated communications via a Universal Translator Matrix as opposed to a Multi-Lingual Translator (Individual who is Fluent in both Languages). I think the best example here is that K'vort is typically defined as being part of the "Bird of Prey" (B'rel) Class., except K'vort which in a literal translation means "Carried into Battle" but more colloquially means "Battleship"... The Vor'cha (or K'Vort'Cha) means "Torpedo Battleship" and would be similar to us saying "Nuclear Submarine" Vs. "Submarine"., thus we can more accurately translate this to "Dreadnought" And this is somewhat the point to make sure., the Universal Translator isn't really capable of taking into account the fluidity of the Klingon Language... instead it'll define basic patterns as proper terms. For example., Klingons won't always refer to ships as "Battlecruisers" or "Battleships"... so the K'Vort might not be present in all communications., and they might even drop the K' prefix in more informal or streamlined communications; which arguably does entirely change the meaning of the word. i.e. K'Vort means "Battleship" while Vort means "To Express" and Vor means "To Cure" on their own; so we could arguably transliterate Vor'Cha to "Torpedo Cure" and translate as "To Cure with Torpedoes"., which arguably _is_ a very Klingon way of saying "Dreadnought" but that isn't how a Human would say that; case and point a Dread Nought (Fears Nothing). It's the same with K'Vort., which as noted Vort is "To Express"; meaning this transliterates to "Klingon Expression" or translates to "An Expression of being Klingon"... which would be through Warfare / Fighting / Battle., and what would carry you into such; well a Vessel. As such, with the lack of those who understand Klingon and the Universal Translator Matrix working from patterns to figure out meanings as opposed to intention... well this is why in part we have the names defined the way they are. ••• As I noted though., there is _another_ root cause that isn't merely a translation problem. The other is regarding how the Klingon Empire works and is structured... which can be *very* confusing from the outside. From the outside it appears as if the Klingons are a unified Empire., engaging in coordinated Expansion and Defence of their Territory; all controlled by the Klingon High Council and High Chancellor / Emperor. Except this isn't the case at all... in reality it works more akin to the Japanese Shogunate. Each Regions of Klingon Territory is controlled by one of the Great Houses (Shoguns)., who have a representative on the High Council (Imperial Court). The Emperor / High Chancellor is responsible for Empire Wide (National Level) decisions., of which they *need* the support of the Majority of Houses for decisions to be upheld... With this said, it is still down to each House to actually abide by said Imperial Ruling/Decision., and thus the Emperor / High Chancellor is little more than a Figure Head unless they can gain unanimous support from the Houses. Now why delve into this? Well., because this extends to things such-as equipment used. That is to say that unlike the Federation., where there is a centralised design; that is constructed to exact specification by whatever Starship Drydock is producing it... the Klingons have a design proposed by the Imperial Armoury., this is then distributed to each individual House; who is responsible for sourcing the Materials and Producing whatever they feel they need to. Designs are often used more as "Guidelines" rather than "Blueprints"... one Great House for example., might focus on Defence; maybe they produce Higher Quality Composites... well, then they'll tweak the design to have thicker armour; but they don't want to increase the cost too much, so they make the whole design a bit smaller. Another might only focus on Torpedoes, so will install a Mag-Rail Launcher and use Guided Munitions; while removing _most_ (or all) of the Disruptors beyond maybe point-defence... as most of the Torpedoes are stored in the Neck., well this might end up elongated. The result here is that each Great House has their *own* version of the D-7 Battlecruiser., and on top of that; each House has their own "Accent" or way of speaking / writing Klingon... thus if you're incepting communications without knowing Klingon very well., or their Socio-Political Structure; you'll see the one from the House of Du'raS as say a "K'Tinga" while the one from the House of Mo'taQ as the "K'Tqara" I mean technically these are _different_ ships as they'll be produced to different specifications; and even within the House Territories even those from different Factories will themselves be unique to _that_ region. (Think Russian T72... as not all were created equally; some were absolute death traps while others were solid and capable pieces of hardware) With this said., these are all Destroyer Mark 7; that would be the root design... although if there _are_ any that are to the original specification would be unlikely. After the Khitomer Accords we *do* see a shift in how the Klingon Empire works., switching to a more Democratic Republic Model. The Great Houses still remain., but they're more akin to States in the United States; with far less autonomy than before. Instead of being little more than a Political Figurehead and Adjudicator between the Houses., the High Chancellor ends up with near absolute power... and we see the adoption of more standardisation and centralisation in terms of production. It's also when the Klingon Defence Force and Imperial Navy are not only merged into a Single Body but are unique Bodies in their own right; rather than merely something a given Houses Ships / Fleets / Armies would fly under the banner of when doing work on behalf of the Empire. I will noted, this arguably _did_ often cause A LOT of confusing prior to the Khitomer Accords and would make Klingon Politics a "Difficult" problem to try to navigate... as a House for example might decide on their own volition to attack / annex a system on their border., but should they be attacked (as a result of backlash for such annexation) they might petition the High Council that will consider what is done an "Act of War" (ya know the poor innocent Klingon House, receiving an unprovoked attack) and thus a mandate would go out that all the other Houses had permission to join in under the KDF banner. As noted., post Khitomer and relocation to (New) "Qo'noS" and we see a shift to Centralised Government, Standing Armed (Defence) Forces, etc. Again this all makes sense if you understand how Feudal Governments work., but no such Government like that exists today; with the closest being a Republic or Confederation / Union that is much more centralised and so closer to what we're all used to.
The K’Tinga and the BoP both show the economic woes of the Klingon Empire post-Praxis. Their economy was in free fall and there wasn’t funding for new designs. To compensate the Empire just started upscaling their existing designs, adapting and upgrading old designs to save funding. The fleet doctrine had to shift from massed warfare to hunter-killer doctrines and hit-and-run. The embodiment of this philosophy was the K’vort Battlecruiser. Only towards the end of TNG era did the Klingon empire recover enough to start trying new things which is when they rolled out the Vorcha and Negvar designs.
If you look closely at the initially released K’Tinga plans they were labelled “Drell-8” or presumably D-8, which would make the next evolution of a series going back thru the D7 to the D6 or D5 or whatever canon you subscribe to. So presumably it’s the Klingon light cruiser design which is period with the upgraded Constitution. The original Constitution mounted 6 phasers and 2 torpedo tubes; the upgrade mounted 18 phasers and 2 torpedo tubes. The D6 mounted 7 phasers and 2 disruptors. The D7 mounted 9 phasers and 2 disruptors. The D-8 mounted 8 disruptors and 2 torpedo tubes. If you go with SFB you can double the torpedoes on the Constitutions, and the disruptors on the D6 and D7 and weaponize the target drones. The weaponry power drain on an SFB basis for the Constitution was 14, the refit (TMP) 22, the D6 15, the D7 17, and the D-8 (K’Tinga) 20. Supporting the refit weaponry required a power plant upgrade of 33%. Presumably the K’Tinga would require something similar. The TMP Constitution is a very definite brute. The K’Tinga…not so much due to the terrible placement of its disruptor weapons. The two weapons on the prow have good arcs, but don’t cross the centerline terribly well, the two weapons under the wings are similar. The two weapons adjacent to the deckhouse cover the rear arcs, but don’t cross the centerline at all. Worst of all are the two weapons notched in on the flanges connecting the boom to the after hull, which have a very narrow arc. Then there are the torpedo tubes, firing 180 degrees out, one forward, one aft. Which means despite a heavy armament, the K’Tinga cannot concentrate its fire! There is a very narrow arc, fairly flat on the ship’s vertical midline, just a little ahead of the beam, on which five disruptors could concentrate to the side, the the opposite wing disruptor firing “cross-deck” which might not be the safest. Forward the prow and wing weapons could concentrate (four), but pitching the ship down to try to bring in the other four woods the first four; pitching up woods the others. This means the best attack angle,is oblique, and probably out of the forward torpedo arc. Aft the two deckhouse flanking weapons and the two wing weapons could in theory concentrate for four dead aft, but only three off that, and again with the risk of damage from cross-decking. At least the torpedo would be in arc. Compared to the refit Constitution, this is embarrassing. The refit can slam a target dead ahead with no less than 10 phasers and two torpedoes. Slightly off dead ahead and still in the torpedo arc it can hit with 11 phasers and two torpedoes. Due aft it can throw four phasers over a broader arc. Dead abeam it can throw 9 phasers. And coverage when pitching ship is similarly more complete. The K’Tinga is impressive looking, and sounding, but the reality is an over-armed and clumsy ship that looks like it was built by committee to overawe…but actually stinks…like much of the Soviet fleet.
I've always held that the difference in name is simply that of categorisation by the federation vs the naming conventions of non-federation species and alliances. Hence the continued confusion over the name of the Ferengi Marauder/D'Kora and the Klingon D5/6/7/K'Tinga. As federation intelligence learned the names of the vessels given by the shipyards that built them, they replaced the allocated identification names given previously
I actually made a K'Tinga for Star Fleet Battles...bring a first Generation X-class level ship...it had the two Photon Torpedo launchers...and I set up the "Tight Beam Disruptor" for the Turreted Disruptors...making them sort of a Phaser/Disruptor Hybrid...using the Disruptor damage tables..but allowing them to count as "Phasers" for shooting at things like Drones, Shuttles/fighters & Plasma Torpedos. They had the expanded arcs as per the design drawings. (Two on the forward boom are the side plus the opposite forward arc. (LS+RF, RS+LF) Two on the aft boom are restricted side and corresponding front half (LF+L, RF+R) Top secondary are opposite of the forward Boom (LS+RR, RS+LR) and the bottom secondary are front and back arcs (FA+RA x2) straight on you could get all 8 in arc..sides you get 3 and rear you get 6) I played them alot as a proposed submission for Task Force...and they worked well...and were balanced....but when submitted...they were appreciated but there were copyright issues.
There is an ingame SFB 'K'Tinga variant' in the Captain's Log 3, where there is a story about the kidnapping of several crews (from different races) and ships by 'The Masters'. The Masters modified 4 of the ships they used in their wargames (mixing crews and captains of different ships with each other in fights, often to the death). There is a D7, modified with forward and rear Photon Torpedo tubes and some other bits (been too long for me to recall without trying to find the ol CL3.
My headcanon is that D6, D7 etc. are more like code names Starfleet assigned to them when they first saw the hulls. During the cold war era where getting too close or even hailing a Klingon ship might have gotten a response in form of photon torpedos.
Maybe this is just me, but I kind of hate both of these ships because the D7 fires disruptors out of its warp nacelles, which stupid, and then the K'tinga somehow replaces its deflector with a torpedo tube, and adds another torpedo tube in the back that looks identical, so where did the deflector go? Is the torpedo tube mounted inside the deflector? Then why does it have a second deflector on the back? I'm really fond of Roddenberry's rules of warp travel, because it's what gives most of the iconic star trek ships their shape. It has to have a deflector at the front, and the nacelles need to have a line of sight to the front, back and each other. That's how you get awesome designs like the D'deridex, they make sense when you consider those rules. But with Klingon ships those rules start falling apart. You have the Klingon cruisers using both their deflector and their nacelles as weapons, and then the rules just go completely out of the window with the bird of prey because they slapped guns on the wings. Obviously it was meant to have nacelles on the wings at some point, since that explains the transforming wings, they have to fold up when it lands, but they fold down when it goes to warp so that the nacelles have a line of sight. I think it's sad that they abandoned those rules, because I really like it when a scifi universe has something like that informing all of its ship designs, since to me it just raises the verisimilitude of that world significantly when not anything goes. Just like any airplane needs to have wings, some means of generating thrust and some kind of control surface to be able to steer it, and yet we have thousands of different designs. It just makes things more real when there are rules like that.
Where do i go to get involved in your wargame thingy you were speaking of? I always wanted to do the General War scenario using the Federation and Empire rules that came out in the 70's.
I wasn't aware of the idea of razee-ing a sailing ship. Interesting. I always thought the D-7 refit into the K'Tinga class made sense as the Constitution class was getting a refit, and the Klingons didn't want to fall behind the Federation in ship capability. They renamed the ship to differentiate it from existing pre-refit D-7 still in service. The exact size and configuration.. eh. I'm not that nitpicky. :)
According to the novelization of ST:TMP, the _K'Tinga_ was more heavily armed and had that the Romulan big plasma ball torpedo (TOS: Balance of Terror). Which it could fire from the fore and aft.
I don't mind the K'tinga being shorter than D7. I imagine that the D7 was built during a time when the Empire was trying to regain their institutional knowledge in certain areas that had been largely lost over the course of the mess that we find the Empire in at the start of DSC. This results in a D7 that is larger than it needed to be. The K'tinga would then be "D7, but now able to be built properly" along with other upgrades, such as extensive ones to weapons, developed in the years since the D7 entered service.
the Klingon Shipyards frequently made use of known Spaceframes that worked well, swapping interior components and payload for performing different roles. the Bird of Prey and D-7 had many versions of these ships used and yes! some were of different sizes this is why both the Bird of Prey and the D-7 had very long service lives.
When I was upgrading my own 3d model of the D-7 to the K't'inga, my review of the available blueprints (most notably the Kimble version with the official TMP branding) showed the 215m size actually makes sense without requiring the entire ship to shrink. The secondary hull has basically the same shape and size as the D7. The main shape and size of the command module is also similar, although the bridge decks and lower onion bulb have very obvious shape differences. The K't'inga nacelles are much thinner than the old Drell units, but the length and position is similar. The main thing that accounts for the shorter length of the K't'inga is the neck, which is ~10m shorter than on the D-7. The neck is also one of the pieces with the most significant shape differences, up there with the nacelles and bridge. Also, thank you for ignoring DS9 tech manual values. Every time I see that quoted definitively, I die a little inside.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 My analysis based on the shapes is that the thicker front of the D7 pizza slice is ~6m tall, which would be pretty short for for two full decks. the rear part is a well over 3m which makes sense as a single deck. The K't'inga part appears to be a little bit shorter, but not by much. If you accept two decks for the D7, I wouldn't see enough evidence on the model to contradict that on the K't'inga. Klingon ships of the era are a bit cramped, so it's reasonable. However, I would personally lean towards a single deck there on both versions, with any extra space taken by all the that targeting equipment and machinery supporting the front main disruptors.
My headcanon has always been that “D7” is a Federation designation for the ship class, and in movie-era Trek we finally get given its indigenous Klingon name
I saw that you showed at the end of the video a new/Revised version of the Klingon strikeforce from Klingon attack. And I saw that you replaced the kingon escort ship with what appears to be a refit F5 frigate. I was wondering if you changed your opinion about the F5 since it’s video and how it was replaced by the bird of prey?
In TMP, the Enterprise did not have the A after the NCC-1701. That didn't happen until after ST IV when they redesignated another Constitution ship to become the Enterprise A.
I'd be willing to wager that all 3 sizes exist. Considering how resource starved the Empire is, I believe there would be a greater number of smaller K'tinga variants. The larger variants could come in as command variants, flag ships, or simply ego padding for members of great houses, or esteemed members of the high counsel. I'm also looking at the size discrepancies the same way the birds of prey show up. Ranging from small near fighter / frigate size to cruiser size. Keep the same design but scale appropriately to its intended role and requisition.
K'tinga is a class name. D7 is the specific variants seen in the 2260's. Also instead of looking at it from Soviet tanks look at it from Soviet ship development. Same "model" different iteration all together.
My thoughts used to be that the D7 designation was something Starfleet came up with due to not knowing what the Klingons called their ships, D for destroyer type and 7 as a rough size classification. The TOS D7 would have had a Klingon class name, perhaps K'Tinga perhaps something else, but Starfleet wouldn't have known until relations thawed a bit in the 70s. Recent canon has kinda nixed that, but it fits nicely with the cold war inspiration as NATO typically had their own designations for Soviet stuff, often well before they knew the chosen name.
The razee is an interesting idea. Keeping the same power and engine systems. The smaller ship could make the ship more nimble or faster is ship to ship combat.
I love Star Trek, I have a 1/350 K'T'inga model behind me, and one day I'll even get around to masking of the bits for painting. That said...for the love of all that's good and holy: It Doesn't Matter When they made the models for TMP, they made modern filming models, just like the Klingon makeup was actual prosthetics instead of long eyebrows Neither was intended to be different to what's shown in a 1960's TV show. It was a modern interpretation of the same things done with more spiffy new-fangled ideas. That's it, that;'s all it ever was Yet the insane fandom couldn't' accept this, it looked different, so it had to BE different, we even had that ridiculous plot line in Enterprise 'explaining' the lack of forehead ridges on TOS Klingons! The D7 is the K't'inga The Klingons are Klingons The Bird of Prey changes sizes because the movie/TV makers at the time didn't care about how big something was supposed to be, but what looked good on the screen for that shot.
Refit can mean so many different things for example the classic slight change to an existing ship refit. Then we have the Italian and British interwar rebuilds of WWI ships that were called refits such as HMS Warspite that were done to make old ships more capable and this is basically what the refit Enterprise is prior to her destruction over Genesis. Then there are ships from the 19th century USN which were actually completely of new design and construction but which were given the same name as the original and a few parts from that original and called a refit in order to get it past congressional bans on new build ships. This way the K'tingas could be differing forms of refit done by the Klingons on D7s as well as new build vessels
To me, the largest K'tinga makes the most sense as a REFIT D7, usually refits add things or upgrade things. More powerful engines, or maybe tweeking some structural elements to either reduce stress on the hull, or improve handling or speed, not to mention improvements to firepower. If we consider the K'tinga as a NEW ship, sharing a design liniage but not strictly a refit, i think that smallest size makes the most sense, for the more wolfpack style doctrine.
Most references in the 90's suggest the D7 is 228m and the K'Tinga is 214m. Which never made total sense to me either. I certainly agree and always will that the K'tinga is to the D7 as the Constitution Refit is to the original Constitution.
At 10:02. I've spent many hours battling that D7 in star fleet battles. It's got 4 front firing disruptors and a buttload of phaser 2s that have CRAZY firing arcs. Don't let it swoop around you and try to crack it hard in the #4 shield. Otherwise the damned thing just keeps pecking away while swooping in and out of range.
This discussion is similar to the Imperial Star Destroyer from Star Wars where very small differences in the ship design has fans and authors designating an Imperial I-class Star Destroyer and Imperial II-class Star Destroyer. I honestly don't think small differences need an explanation. I'm more inclined to think of intergalactic factions that need massive fleets to govern would be built at different locations, therefore small design changes would happen to certain ships based on the needs of that star system for whatever reason. It's fun to geek out about these discussions, but in my mind they are the same ships classes unless an obvious and big enough difference are apparent. I see the D-7 and K'tinga as the same design. Sometimes it's just better to keep things simple.
Per the FASA book in front of me: K't'agga and K't'kara (D-7A and C) were 216m K't'alla (D-7G) - first with Romulan Plasma Torpedo - were 218m K't'inga (D-7M) - first with Photon Torpedoes - were 221m Later models with cloaks or heavy disruptor instead of torpedoes fluctuated by a few meters either way)
Well, for better or worse, Disco has cemented in Canon that the first D7 was called the K'Tinga. So perhaps all of them were K'Tingas and "D7" was merely a federation designation?
I see a lot of "In my head canon". So i assumed that the D7 and the Ktinga are the same vessel the same way the TOS Klingons are the same species as the ST TMP Klingons. The TV show didn't have the resources to show the true Klingon form in both their physical appearance and the ship design. Then ST TMP comes around and has the cash flow to depict them true to their nature and form. God, I love talking about Star Trek.
I thought the basic idea was that Klingons generally use the same hull design and just scale it up and down as needed and fill it out with hardware differently.. .this explains the various D7/K'tinga versions, and the various BoP versions. Then came along TNG era, and they needed the *really* big ships.
When he gets into the battle between Chang's BoP and the Enterprise he doesn't take into account that he wasn't using the disruptors. Phasers and disruptors are mainly used to deplete shields and for more surgical strikes for disabling. Torpedos are most effective when shields are doen to destroy the target completely or cause massive damage
One theory I have is that the klingons made the K'Tinga from the ground up and it was smaller one. Better tech takes up less space. The size discrepancy comes from refitting the older and larger D7/A with the new tech.
To me, the K'tinga was to the D 7 (which I always taken to be the Starfleet reporting name for it) what the T-80 was to the T-72 MBT. Basically a lot of the same parts with some upgrades thrown in and new armor.
It has to figure that the Klingon Empire found the D7 model suitable to their needs so improving it, upgrading it to a newer model, the K'Tinga. F18A-D were one size, then the F18E/F Super Hornet came into design/service being larger.
I think the best explanation is that its a refit of the D7. The changes between the two seem les than that between Constitution and Constitution - refit, and they don't call that a completely different ship. In my canon, its a refit.
In SFB the Klingons have a mix of disrupters, phasers and drones. Not “lesser disrupters” The disrupters cause less damage but fire more frequently. So statistically they are identical to photons torpedos in damage caused over time.
to me, changing the proportions has a lot of sense-make in the context, since, you are effectively adjusting the warp-dynamics & therefore performance characteristics of the ship to meet its different role (makes quite a lot more sense than redesigning the whole ship to a different scale in order to slightly change it's size) also, maybe because I've been thinking about those kinds of things, but it kind of makes sense that this ship is built for a different branch of the Klingon armed forces.... it is not that the Klingon Navy (or whatever you call the Nobility based force)itself had changed, (I do not think it did much by this point) but that the K'tinga is created part of a a mass army rather than one of the ancient knightly orders and its auxiliaries. I believe, such a conscripted "army" as I shall call it (as opposed to Navy) did exist before, but it has it's own culture and it's own separate command and honor hierarchy, as war changes, this force is allowed to take on a greater role... one that the traditional orders fail to fulfill
I just always assumed that "K'tinga" was the proper Klingon name for the D7 because, let's face it, the letter "D" and the number "7" are not Klingonese. Therefore, I logically assumed that "D7" was the Federation designation for the K'tinga-class of ship.
And you are correct sir 👍....
I always assumed that also. But it's also cool to think it's a newer better class...there aren't enough Klingon ship classes in my opinion.
This is my thought process as well. Designations for the enemy vehicles would not match the name said enemy assigned them. It would be later, after the designation was widely in use, that the actual vehicle designation would be learned and it would take a bit to disseminate and come to be used by the forces at large. This is how it happened in history.
It makes me wonder, what did the Klingons call the constitution class, what designation did they give it at first? I love Klingon stuff, its always so brutal in its design language, compared to the Romulans and their penchant for edgy looks. For a while the Vor'cha was my favorite Klink ship, with the Tor'Kaht non-canon variant just enrapturing me...
Speaking of raptors, I always liked the Klingon "raptor" class ships. Sleek and predatory, yet not as flimsy looking as BoPs, at least to me.
also was my running assumption
That "'k'tinga" is the Klingon name for the ship that the Federation called the D-7 is the most sensible notion to me. The ships got more detail because it was needed for the models in TMP, but they're supposed to be the same ships we saw in TOS.
C
In fact in VOYAGER, in one episode Voyager comes across a ship of Klingons whose families started travelling to the Delta quadrant some 80 years prior. The ship model used is the K'tinga model originally built for TMP, and Tuvok identifies it as a D-7 in the show
If K'tingas are pack hunters, that would make me think the smaller size ship would make more sense. Especially for a relatively resource poor empire.
They basically attack and fight in battle the very same way as the Old German U-boat packs used to do the more numbers on your side the better chance of successfully winning and surviving any fight indeed!.
I think in the original idea of the movie of 1,2,3&6 they were bastardized from the original. It’s just funny to think about. 😂. I’m laughing at it too.
I don’t know how they did it. But they did. Back then Gene Roddenberry in Hollywood was doing lots of things to save money.
But Gene Roddenberry wanted to do a totally new enterprise.
There’s a guy called the mystic here on TH-cam. Where he made new Enterprise A. U know remember what happened to the Constitution Class refit Advanced class in Star Trek III.
So he made look like the Excelsior class.
Amt made some pretty good kits. (Cat helped/pushing it off the shelf)😂 My rebuilt model I enlarged the bow, Fiber optics and lighting. Painting and Masking took 3 phases and all. Grey green w/t rusting & streaking Corrosion finished the entire process model. Thanks for the Post @Del Brown
"I am not interested in the names of your fathers, nor of your family's liniange. What I am intersted in, is your breaking point!" ~Chang.
My headcanon was that "D7" is a Starfleet designation and K'Tinga is the Klingon name for it. We have something like this in real life. And the changes are just due to refits, like how the Constitution received refits.
My stupid headcanon is that the K'tinga size variants are the same as the BoPs, and that Klingon Quartermasters have to fight ritual duels to the death if they get the wrong spare parts.
Size discrepancies are due to inept camera crews. The size is always the same, they just use forced perspective to try to cram as much crap into a single frame as possible.
in wwii the germans had to station guards along spare part trains because they were so vital and in short supply individual tank units would stage raids so they could get parts
@sabrewolf4129 They also built a few different models and sometimes use the wrong ones.
Babe wake up venom dropped a new ship video
The D-7 is a SERIES of ship designs.
The version in the original series was the known by the Federation as the D-7A, aka the "K't'agga" in Klingon. The version seen in ST-TMP was the D-7G, or "K'tinga" in Klingon. The version seen in ST-6 was the D-7M (and I can't recall the designation in Klingon.)
It's like talking about comparing a 1969 Mustang, 1995 Mustang, and a 2015 Mustang. All are the same base designation, and share design features in common, but are also quite different.
Not strictly canon but the 90's game "Starfleet Academy" has the D7 as the original Klingon ship and the D7-A a refit that had the Romulan cloaking device.
@@TheCormTube True... but the "three characters" thing was created by a then-fan who later held a major production role on TNG. The battle cruiser model built by Matt Jefferies had a three character making on either nacelle pylon. This was the only "canon" klongon language at that time. Duting TOS, the battlecruiser was defined, only once, as a "D7," of course. But in the mid-70s, Rick Sternbach and a couple of friends created a "fan pub" which included a full Klongon alphabet which was built off of that set of markings on the filming model. It was rapidly accrpted by fandom ss "official" and was used on TMP and ST3, making it official. (Later on, during TNG, a "script" version of the language was created, appearing more " hand-writable," and that sort of took over as the "official Klingon font" in most usage.)
The original Klingon alphabet, however, explicitly defines the markings on the TOS ship as reading "D7A." And given that this was later canonized, that means that the TOS shop literally said "D7A" above each nacelle!
Of course, Matt never intended to define his lettering, so whether you acccept this depends on whether you give "original designer intent" sole authority, or accept later modifications to that intent.
Me, I have that font in my PC and like to use it at times... I'm quite fond of that font! 😉
But yeah, the other designations, I borrow from FASA with only the slightest modifications, based upon info which didn't exist when FASA wrote that. For instance, the version of the D-7 seen in "Trials and Tribblations" is subtly different from the TOS ship, with panel detailing and a few other TMP-ish details, so I treat that as an upgraded model... say, the D-7C?
It's all make believe, but a huge part of the fun of being a fan is trying to make it all make real-world sense. 👍
My head canon was formed by reading the novelization of Star Trek the Motion Picture. The book really made the K'tinga sound like a larger, heavier, more armored and far more heavily armed cruiser than the D7. So much so, that I've been confused by the 'It's just an upgraded D7' concept. The K'tinga was also meant to be a frightening jump forward, so mush so that its existence was supposedly one of the reasons for the extensive Enterprise refit, which transformed the Enterprise into a essentially a whole new ship.
Anyway, I'd personally go with the largest scale concept, otherwise, I'd go with the size that fits the D7 scale best.
I LOVE the D7/K'tinga class. I remember the first time I saw it on tv, when I was tenish years old. Love at first sight.
Its nice that people still remember the old Fasa game and Star Fleet Battles.
I personally am more partial to the 230 meter length, because I never really thought that the K’Tinga was simply a refit but rather a “new” class of ship all together- but not a “new” class of ship in the way we would understand it- more like how the T-72 was a “New” class of tank that happened to be strikingly similar to older MBTs-
I feel like the K’Tinga is the same way and that would explain the slight proportion changes you get at the 230 meter length
*edit* Especially since they sold all of their D-7s to the Romulxans
I view it as a Mig25-Mig31 difference. Heavily upgraded, newly produced but using tooling from the older models
According to the FASA RPG, the k't'inga is the D-7m variant. The original series would be the k't'agga D-7a. That's good enough for me.
My head canon was that the D7 is a KTInga covered with a necessary composite phaser refracting armor, like the rubber tiles on submarines. Then tech advanced, making this redundant, so they stripped it off, reducing those ships in size by a few meters.
I love your takes on Star Trek ships and lore, thanks for all the videos. Before now I wasn't aware of the term razee, but that was always my head cannon for the K'tingas that show up later on DS9
Dude. You get WAY into the lore... Love it! Subbed.
Nice job as usual, and I like the idea of paralleling D7-K'Tinga development with soviet tanks. And I share your thoughts on the matter for the most part, new tech and new methods of fighting lead to new looks and new style.
PS: It's K'Tonga!
my head canon is the klingons were absurdly loyal to the d7 template. Only doing minor increases in size and capability to power creep the ship for the threats they faced as the years went on eventually reaching the 350 meter variant noted in the ds9 manual for the last up sized version before being forced to invent the Vor'cha to match off the feds ambassador. only to fall behind again and then invent the negh'var to match the galaxy. Pride for the 'tried and true' concept finally buckling under the sheer necessity of 'lets show them we can also make something new.'
That actually makes sense, especially since this would be easier for the Klingons to simply reuse and rebuild the same ships without much physical or technical changes as if psyching out the Federation and Romulan opponents they likely faced
I always thought the K'tinga not as a refit but as new model of D7. But rather than being just a D7a, it's considered different enough to be it own ship type. Like how the t-55 is considered a different tank model than the t-54, despite it appearing as simply a newer variant. Or maybe it's like the TA-152 and the FW-190.
In any case I've always been annoyed by those who have tried to erase the original appearance of the TOS D7. They consider the K'tinga as what the D7 really looked like. But I love that original stark sleek greeblie-free look of the original D7. I think remastered TOS did pretty good job with the ship.
I think they just took the basic form of the D-7 and redesigned it from the frame up into the K'tinga. Drach can tell you all about how we Americans reused the same basic cruiser hull to build several different classes of cruisers in the 1930's. In modern ships, the first Nimitz-class carriers are very different from the last ones built, some of which are bigger than their older sisters but still classified as Nimitz-class. The Klingons seem enamored with this hull form as they can even be seen in Enterprise....I know, only one episode but it still makes it cannon.
The K'tingas are D7.15, D7.24, & D7.56. With regard to size, I 'm partial to the K'tinga being in equal length or slightly longer than the D7.
Also, the K'tinga being an early form of KDF cruiser pack hunting in contrast to lone warrior D7s is a neat notion.
Well I think it reflects what we see
I always loves SFB and the way they made the klingon Saber Dance! Using superior fire arcs manueverability and range to effectively snipe an enemy to death at range.
I personally feel the K'tinga is a slightly larger, more powerful, up armed and armored version of the D7.
Damn right
I agree. It's the Klingon equivalent of the Constitution Refit.
like T-72 and T-90😁
A real example from the Age of Sail was the Spanish ship of the line _Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad_ which was launched in 1769. In 1795-96 it was refitted by adding a fourth deck which was done by closing the gap between the forecastle with the quarterdeck and this enabled its firepower to be increased from 112 guns to 130. It was the largest, most armed warship in the world for a time and was lost at the Battle of Trafalgar.
@@snyderec3952 Except the K'tinga is a whole new ship while the COnnie Refit is just a refit. The Klingons just took the basics of the D7 and used better tech in the K'tinga, maybe a little bigger but not by much. THey still fill the same role. Standard ship of line with the B'rel as a small attacker.
I always just thought the K't'inga was next variant of the D7, so brand new ships (not refits). Great design!
If I recall, FASA Trek used the expedient of calling it a D7A or maybe D7M. Implying the same design lineage with changes over time.
yeah the old Fasa Star trek universe. The role playing game ect, The D7a was in the old show. The D7 series is D7 a through S if I remember. The A is the old show, the motion picture is a M, The one in the next generation is a S. The S had a cloaking devise. The A only had four disrupters Two forward port and two forward starboard.No other weapons.The M had stronger disrupters and one forward and one aft torpedoes. I still have all my recognition manuals some ware.
I actually can get behind the idea of the K'Tinga being a cut down, more maneuverable, development of the D7 and using a new fleet based doctrine.
Possibly one thing that shaped the design and doctrine of the K'Tinga was the development of the shaped charge photon torpedo. Basically the Klingons developed it, then began thinking of ways to use it most efficiently, and the Battlecruiser Guild basically started redesigning the D7 to use the new torpedoes as its main armament, while also taking into account new developments from Starfleet and new requirements issued by the Imperial Navy and the High Council.
The Klingons also probably kept an eye on the Constitution Refit program and likely realized they would not be able to meet it one on one(They probably read over the Records of Battle of every ship that engaged a Constitution and survived so they were very well aware of how the D7 stacked up to Starfleets premier cruiser.) So the High Council and the Battlecruiser Guild went "Until we can build a Constitution killer, which will take time to design, build, and get into service in sufficient numbers, why not build a simplified, easier to build variant of the D7, arm it with the new torpedoes so it can pound down the Constitution from outside its effective range and build enough of them to make up for individual lack of capability with numbers and mutual support.
Probably my all-time favorite ship design.
Gowron's eyes always creeped me out. Something about how his forehead is so far forward of them. Gives him a really menacing appearance.
I was never quite sure what the phrase "beady eyes" referred to until I saw Gowron. It's very clear now
In STO I have a Klingon character that I spent quite a lot of time, to make sure he looks like Gowron as much as possible.
Called him Crazy Eyes! 😁
@@TheAncientAstronomer huh. Well, my main on STO is gonna finally have level 20 Cannon R&D in about... uh... 19 hours. Then I gotta switch focus to whatever my second highest skill is.
I'm in the slightly bigger school of thought for the K'Tinga and up armored. The question about the armaments package is interesting, and in my head cannon, while the frontal arc was the most powerful, the side and rear arc are not undefended with the expectation of the birds of prey.
One point you failed to mention is the improved sensors and fire control system which allows the K'Tinga to attack multiple targets. In my head cannon before that secondary sensor would allow the D7 to at least defend itself in the enemy flanked them.
For what it's worth, the Star Fleet Battles guys are engineers/Veterans & using the only deck plans available at the time & protractors to determin firing arcs, came up with the stats for the D-7s.
An interesting quirk that the noticed was that all the "Phaser" (or as you called them "Light Disruptors") also had line of sight/firing arcs directly below & also to the rear of the D-7. This led to the idea that Klingons must like to "Run over" enemy vessels as part of swooping arcs. The creators of SFB called this the "Klingon Saber Dance". As seen in the show a few times, the Klingon vessel charges the Enterprise firing, flying over them still firing & then circling around to come at them again.
🖖😎👍Very cool and very nicely greatly wonderfully well done and very nicely informatively explained and executed in every detail way shape and format spectacularly provided on "What is the K'tinga (Thats not a D'7.)", And on the various differences with in their designs and modifications and on their weapons systems and shielding availability and on their main engines, And on their main purpose for their various duties and missions required of them in battle and so forth and so on; Anyways a job very nicely greatly fabulously well done as always indeed Sir!👌.
For people wondering how size changes can happens for ships of the same line. Well real world examples exist. In WW2 many countries would put in orders for ships. And say the first 5 off the line are the same but the figure out some things they could improve. So the next 5 off the line they make the changes. But the a new weapon is needed to be fit, so the next 5 off the line have their hulls expanded to fit the new stuff. The work out the errors on those 5 and then the NEXT 5 they put the changes into them. Then say the first 5 are brought back in for upgrades etc.
You get like 20 ships of the same line and class. But ever 5 or so have a tone of layout or load out changes. And Refits etc. Then after that line of ships had had service for a while. They need to replace them. So they incorporate all those things they learned into the FRESH FROM THE GROUND UP run and you get a slimmer and sleeker ship with all the fat trimmed off. And the process repeats itself.
In SFB, we call the tactics required to exploit the weapons mix of the Klingons (especially the D7) the “Klingon Saber Dance”. When your opponent does it to you it is very frustrating but beautiful to watch
I was literally just thinking about buying a D7 model and didn't remember the difference. Fuckin hero
personally im of the view that a D7 ought to be jet silver
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Not *BONE* white? 😉
Polar Lights brand? I have two of them. 😁
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Same. A; to differentiate it more from starfleet and the Romulans, and B; to make it look like an actual ship rather than a prop. I think I'll end up going with the D7 if I do get a model. It represents when the Klingons were truly a force to be reckoned with, arguably more so than they've ever been since then; and I personally would rather captain a ship designed for self reliance than one designed for group tactics, like the Constitution itself
I just assumed the K'tinga was a refit, like the Constitution. The Constitution Class wasn't renamed after the refit. To that end, I also just assumed that D7 was the Starfleet classification, though Discovery kinda threw that theory under the bus. Lol
Maybe the initial prototypes were fitted into the latter variants of the D7 for testing the new components. It's a good guess before the K'Tinga went into serial production.
I would think it might like the T-62 vs T-72. Technology and doctrine lead to a slightly small vessel meant to simplify and cheapen design, while providing some improvements to the design. The changes might have been showing the first strains of the unsustainability of their military costs that lead to the Praxis moon explosion. The greebling of the k'tinga could possibly be something akin to the adoption of ERA armor to partially counter the improving technology of the Federation's phaser's - extra (treated) albative plating that saves on energy costs (as weight is not so much a factor in space except in changing momentum). As you mentioned, the klingons also changed from single privateer-like hunters (seeking individual glory) where manuevers and tactics were highly valued to pack hunters who work in unison with gunboats that can strike from any angle.
I agree with you on the D7 class' specifications. As for the K'tinga class' specifications, I agree that 215m makes sense as well.
As for the weapons of both ships I think they were pretty much the same except the heavy disruptors. The following armaments list will explain.
D7 class
2 standard disruptors.
Underneath the ford command module.
2 standard disruptors
Underneath the shoulders.
2 Dull disruptor batteries, 1 on the port wing and 1 on the starboard wing.
2 standard disruptors aft.
1 forward torpedo launcher.
and 2 warp nacelle mounted heavy disruptor cannons
K'tinga class
2 standard disruptors.
Underneath the ford command module.
2 Dull disruptor batteries, 1 on the port wing and 1 on the starboard wing.
2 Standard disruptors aft.
1 forward and 1 aft torpedo launcher.
2 less powerful heavy disruptors cannons replacing the 2 standered shoulder mounted disruptors.
No warp nacelle mounted heavy disruptor cannons due to needing more efficient warp nacelles
The comparison between D-7 and K'Tinga would be something like T-72 versus T-80: they look very similar but are fundamentally different ships, the K'Tinga like the T-80 being a more advanced, refined and better equipped with sensors ans electronic devices.
The way you described the K’tingas battle tactics is identical to how I use the Janus class in bsg deadlock.
Cool, a video about the K'tinga-class Star Destroyer from Star Wars!
I agree with your analysis, all the differences between the D -7 and the K'tinga. As a player of the awesome board game Star Fleet Battles, I loved using Klingon ships for slashing attacks. Human by birth. Klingon by choice
This is a very fun example of how approach changes outcome. The argument of the video is an "in lore" one that tries to explain differences in appearance from an in universe point of view.
I remember an article which I sadly can't find just now, about the development process of The Motion Picture movie. As far I remember the ship in question was just called "Klingon Cruiser" at that time and production of the model was so hasty that they attached the neck turned upside down by accident. Don't remember if that was reversed before filming. So, this can all be explained from a movie production perspective as well, as lore was very thin back in 1979. As far my research turned up, most of the Klingon lore plus the name K'Tinga stems from the novels by John M. Ford who started writing Star Trek novels in 1984. Just thought that might be interesting for some.
I love both versions of the Klingon battle cruisers
Thank you.... Love these wonderful videos !!!!
Personal headcannon, the K'tinga started as a testbed/stopgap upgrade package to the D7 like the Federation did with the Constitution refit, but due to lack of resources and having other priorates following the Praxis disaster they cancelled or suspended their Excelsior equivalent next generation ship and took the cheaper alternative of expanding the upgrade package into a new ship class that due to it's similarity to the D7 would require only minimal updates to manufacturing facilities and tooling to put into full production. The K'Tinga then proved "Good enough" that along with the Empire still recovering they stuck with it until just before the TNG show era when things like the Galaxy and D'deridex coming into service forced them to start producing the Vor'cha, which they'd had sitting on the back burner for a while, and to start developing the Negh'Var which assuming creating new ship class would take a number of years, means that when the dominion war kicked off the first prototype was just about ready and became Gowron's flagship. .
The problems I have with the K'tinga, which I think is an awesome looking design, is that the bow port was originally the deflector dish on the D-7. It's a natural port for a torpedo launcher, but A) it's really big for a torpedo port unless you're launching really big torpedoes and B) where then is the deflector dish?
So there's no reason the torpedo has t o be small. Real life torps are big and I wish trek gave them more weight. But you could also reason ite bigger because the launcher has an accelerator barrel. As for the deflector... this is the same era as miranda so you don't need dishes
@@venomgeekmedia9886 or just like fighter craft and nose cones. There's a dish under there and you just can't see it and the radio waves have no trouble passing through it. Maybe exposed ones get you a tiny bit more power? And some designs opt for that? Pretty sure the Miranda Class has a deflector dish somewhere.... 🤷
I think either size works because the Empire still had individual house fleets & patronage Great House manufacturing. House X & House Y both get to make a K'Tinga but there's no 'real' centralization in terms of manufacturing standards so sizes, interiors etc are all subject to what house built it at the time. You can use the Soviet analogy of how T-34's would sometimes look & act wildly different depending on which agricultural plan made them during WW2
K'Tinga is the Klingon name for the ship. D-7 is the Federation designation for it until they could learn its class name.
I really believe that the K'TIngas were just D7 refits. It's cheaper and easier to revamp and overhaul an old series a ship to do new things rather than trying to build a brand new fleet. So the 230m is most believable. It's just the refits they made didn't change the appearance too much like the Connie refits did. The refits were so good they kept them for another 100 years before being replaced bu the Vor'cha and later the Neg'Var classes. There were still a few connies still serving in Starfleet during TNG too if you'd remember.
I'm partial to the slightly up sized version, my thought was the K'tinga has that honking power hungry plasma torpedo launcher in the nose that they got from the Romulan tech exchange and could not retrofit it into the existing D7 so they built a new ship using the proven D7 hull form. The Romulans also did this with the D7 tech they acquired from the Klingons. I would imagine that something about the hull form gives it an advantage in its warp geometry.
During TOS it always seemed like the Klingons or Romulans would need two D7's to be a match for a Constitution class starship or three to be at an advantage. While I have not checked the lore websites on this, it would make sense to me that this could prompt the Klingon high command to initiate an upgrade program of their fleet in order to bring them up to parity if not out-match their Federation foes on a per unit basis. This could then prompt the Federation to in turn start upgrading its fleet in a 'cold war arms race' which explains why in TMP there were already at least 3 K'tinga's fielded against V'ger while the Enterprise was still receiving its re-fit. At that point the power balance is re-dressed with the enhanced capabilities of the Constitution and newer Starfleet designs (such as the Miranda and upcoming Excelsior classes) leading the Klingons back to relying on 'wolf-pack' tactics.
In a fair bit of ST lore; a single Federation Heavy Cruiser (USS Enterprise for example) was a match for 3 D7s. The K'Tinga is a Heavy Cruiser variant of the D7 (which is closer to a light cruiser, in naval terms), meant to match a Fed Heavy Cruiser. So increased size and stronger firepower is the result.
The concept of a Razee is very interesting imo.
Of course not all ships would be suitable for that, but som Starfleet ships i could see would benefit once they are a little bit outdated, but still to good to throw away.
For example, in the first half of the 25th century one could razee the Galaxy Class and replace the Saucer with a smaller one or remove it completely and keep only the Stardrive section. By doing that you would get a very powerful and nimble platform for border patrols or skirmish operations.
Just an idea.
Didn't they actually do that, but in the Kirk era? A gunship, that had a hull like the Enterprise, but a very small saucer section, filled with guns (no torpedoes, I think). Something made during the war, and then never again after that. Like a stop-gap measure.
@@Grubnar Can't remember. Which episode/movie ?
@@nealsterling8151 I don't remember. I think it was mentioned in regards to Harry Mudd and a disgruntled customer (that chased after him in one of those ships)?
It was years ago, i just don't remember where I saw it or heard it.
Could have been from a book.
@@Grubnar Interesting. TY for your reply!
The D7 studio model looks way better than the remastered CGI.
I see the K'Tinga more as a continuation of the class but with an update to fit new requirements. Not necessarily undergoing a "Refit" on existing ships.
I think of it more along the lines of naval ships that have long production lines like the Arleigh Burke destroyer which has a number of batches that see an increase in size, displacement and design changes as a requirement for that comes into being.
To me it seems like they could have both come from the project but just built to meet different imperial needs. The D7 only being used as a long range patrol ship by the great houses which is why they were meant to operate alone and we see them in TOS set mostly in the frontier of the two factions, were as the K'Tinga being saved for the main KDF fleets which would have been small due to the still developing centralisation so most likely would have been kept back in case of a major incursion, or for a planned invasion.
Imma be right back gotta join that membership I'm missing out on some interesting shenanigans
Alright, well this is certainly a well put together delve into the Differences / Similarities between the D-7 and K'Tinga Class Ships.
With this said...
K'Tinga transliterates to Klingon [Game] Hunter., which in Federation Naval Terms would be a "Hunter-Destroyer" or just "Destroyer" Class.
Sometimes this will be followed up by the version number...
i.e. K'Tinga Jav (Destroyer Mark 6, or D-6)., or K'Tinga Soch (Destroyer Mark 7 or D-7)
Now the confusion with Klingon Ships, such-as their Classifications, Names, etc. stems from two root issues.
First and Foremost is that communication or more accurately intelligence., is acquired by both sides as translated communications via a Universal Translator Matrix as opposed to a Multi-Lingual Translator (Individual who is Fluent in both Languages).
I think the best example here is that K'vort is typically defined as being part of the "Bird of Prey" (B'rel) Class., except K'vort which in a literal translation means "Carried into Battle" but more colloquially means "Battleship"...
The Vor'cha (or K'Vort'Cha) means "Torpedo Battleship" and would be similar to us saying "Nuclear Submarine" Vs. "Submarine"., thus we can more accurately translate this to "Dreadnought"
And this is somewhat the point to make sure., the Universal Translator isn't really capable of taking into account the fluidity of the Klingon Language... instead it'll define basic patterns as proper terms.
For example., Klingons won't always refer to ships as "Battlecruisers" or "Battleships"... so the K'Vort might not be present in all communications., and they might even drop the K' prefix in more informal or streamlined communications; which arguably does entirely change the meaning of the word.
i.e. K'Vort means "Battleship" while Vort means "To Express" and Vor means "To Cure" on their own; so we could arguably transliterate Vor'Cha to "Torpedo Cure" and translate as "To Cure with Torpedoes"., which arguably _is_ a very Klingon way of saying "Dreadnought" but that isn't how a Human would say that; case and point a Dread Nought (Fears Nothing).
It's the same with K'Vort., which as noted Vort is "To Express"; meaning this transliterates to "Klingon Expression" or translates to "An Expression of being Klingon"... which would be through Warfare / Fighting / Battle., and what would carry you into such; well a Vessel.
As such, with the lack of those who understand Klingon and the Universal Translator Matrix working from patterns to figure out meanings as opposed to intention... well this is why in part we have the names defined the way they are.
•••
As I noted though., there is _another_ root cause that isn't merely a translation problem.
The other is regarding how the Klingon Empire works and is structured... which can be *very* confusing from the outside.
From the outside it appears as if the Klingons are a unified Empire., engaging in coordinated Expansion and Defence of their Territory; all controlled by the Klingon High Council and High Chancellor / Emperor.
Except this isn't the case at all... in reality it works more akin to the Japanese Shogunate.
Each Regions of Klingon Territory is controlled by one of the Great Houses (Shoguns)., who have a representative on the High Council (Imperial Court). The Emperor / High Chancellor is responsible for Empire Wide (National Level) decisions., of which they *need* the support of the Majority of Houses for decisions to be upheld...
With this said, it is still down to each House to actually abide by said Imperial Ruling/Decision., and thus the Emperor / High Chancellor is little more than a Figure Head unless they can gain unanimous support from the Houses.
Now why delve into this? Well., because this extends to things such-as equipment used.
That is to say that unlike the Federation., where there is a centralised design; that is constructed to exact specification by whatever Starship Drydock is producing it... the Klingons have a design proposed by the Imperial Armoury., this is then distributed to each individual House; who is responsible for sourcing the Materials and Producing whatever they feel they need to.
Designs are often used more as "Guidelines" rather than "Blueprints"... one Great House for example., might focus on Defence; maybe they produce Higher Quality Composites... well, then they'll tweak the design to have thicker armour; but they don't want to increase the cost too much, so they make the whole design a bit smaller.
Another might only focus on Torpedoes, so will install a Mag-Rail Launcher and use Guided Munitions; while removing _most_ (or all) of the Disruptors beyond maybe point-defence... as most of the Torpedoes are stored in the Neck., well this might end up elongated.
The result here is that each Great House has their *own* version of the D-7 Battlecruiser., and on top of that; each House has their own "Accent" or way of speaking / writing Klingon... thus if you're incepting communications without knowing Klingon very well., or their Socio-Political Structure; you'll see the one from the House of Du'raS as say a "K'Tinga" while the one from the House of Mo'taQ as the "K'Tqara"
I mean technically these are _different_ ships as they'll be produced to different specifications; and even within the House Territories even those from different Factories will themselves be unique to _that_ region.
(Think Russian T72... as not all were created equally; some were absolute death traps while others were solid and capable pieces of hardware)
With this said., these are all Destroyer Mark 7; that would be the root design... although if there _are_ any that are to the original specification would be unlikely.
After the Khitomer Accords we *do* see a shift in how the Klingon Empire works., switching to a more Democratic Republic Model.
The Great Houses still remain., but they're more akin to States in the United States; with far less autonomy than before.
Instead of being little more than a Political Figurehead and Adjudicator between the Houses., the High Chancellor ends up with near absolute power... and we see the adoption of more standardisation and centralisation in terms of production.
It's also when the Klingon Defence Force and Imperial Navy are not only merged into a Single Body but are unique Bodies in their own right; rather than merely something a given Houses Ships / Fleets / Armies would fly under the banner of when doing work on behalf of the Empire.
I will noted, this arguably _did_ often cause A LOT of confusing prior to the Khitomer Accords and would make Klingon Politics a "Difficult" problem to try to navigate... as a House for example might decide on their own volition to attack / annex a system on their border., but should they be attacked (as a result of backlash for such annexation) they might petition the High Council that will consider what is done an "Act of War" (ya know the poor innocent Klingon House, receiving an unprovoked attack) and thus a mandate would go out that all the other Houses had permission to join in under the KDF banner.
As noted., post Khitomer and relocation to (New) "Qo'noS" and we see a shift to Centralised Government, Standing Armed (Defence) Forces, etc.
Again this all makes sense if you understand how Feudal Governments work., but no such Government like that exists today; with the closest being a Republic or Confederation / Union that is much more centralised and so closer to what we're all used to.
The K’Tinga and the BoP both show the economic woes of the Klingon Empire post-Praxis. Their economy was in free fall and there wasn’t funding for new designs. To compensate the Empire just started upscaling their existing designs, adapting and upgrading old designs to save funding. The fleet doctrine had to shift from massed warfare to hunter-killer doctrines and hit-and-run. The embodiment of this philosophy was the K’vort Battlecruiser. Only towards the end of TNG era did the Klingon empire recover enough to start trying new things which is when they rolled out the Vorcha and Negvar designs.
If you look closely at the initially released K’Tinga plans they were labelled “Drell-8” or presumably D-8, which would make the next evolution of a series going back thru the D7 to the D6 or D5 or whatever canon you subscribe to. So presumably it’s the Klingon light cruiser design which is period with the upgraded Constitution.
The original Constitution mounted 6 phasers and 2 torpedo tubes; the upgrade mounted 18 phasers and 2 torpedo tubes. The D6 mounted 7 phasers and 2 disruptors. The D7 mounted 9 phasers and 2 disruptors. The D-8 mounted 8 disruptors and 2 torpedo tubes. If you go with SFB you can double the torpedoes on the Constitutions, and the disruptors on the D6 and D7 and weaponize the target drones.
The weaponry power drain on an SFB basis for the Constitution was 14, the refit (TMP) 22, the D6 15, the D7 17, and the D-8 (K’Tinga) 20. Supporting the refit weaponry required a power plant upgrade of 33%. Presumably the K’Tinga would require something similar.
The TMP Constitution is a very definite brute. The K’Tinga…not so much due to the terrible placement of its disruptor weapons. The two weapons on the prow have good arcs, but don’t cross the centerline terribly well, the two weapons under the wings are similar. The two weapons adjacent to the deckhouse cover the rear arcs, but don’t cross the centerline at all. Worst of all are the two weapons notched in on the flanges connecting the boom to the after hull, which have a very narrow arc. Then there are the torpedo tubes, firing 180 degrees out, one forward, one aft. Which means despite a heavy armament, the K’Tinga cannot concentrate its fire!
There is a very narrow arc, fairly flat on the ship’s vertical midline, just a little ahead of the beam, on which five disruptors could concentrate to the side, the the opposite wing disruptor firing “cross-deck” which might not be the safest. Forward the prow and wing weapons could concentrate (four), but pitching the ship down to try to bring in the other four woods the first four; pitching up woods the others.
This means the best attack angle,is oblique, and probably out of the forward torpedo arc. Aft the two deckhouse flanking weapons and the two wing weapons could in theory concentrate for four dead aft, but only three off that, and again with the risk of damage from cross-decking. At least the torpedo would be in arc.
Compared to the refit Constitution, this is embarrassing. The refit can slam a target dead ahead with no less than 10 phasers and two torpedoes. Slightly off dead ahead and still in the torpedo arc it can hit with 11 phasers and two torpedoes. Due aft it can throw four phasers over a broader arc. Dead abeam it can throw 9 phasers. And coverage when pitching ship is similarly more complete.
The K’Tinga is impressive looking, and sounding, but the reality is an over-armed and clumsy ship that looks like it was built by committee to overawe…but actually stinks…like much of the Soviet fleet.
I'm just glad that I'm more ingrained with the B'rel rather than the D7s (Yes HMS Bounty I'm referring to you)
I've always held that the difference in name is simply that of categorisation by the federation vs the naming conventions of non-federation species and alliances.
Hence the continued confusion over the name of the Ferengi Marauder/D'Kora and the Klingon D5/6/7/K'Tinga.
As federation intelligence learned the names of the vessels given by the shipyards that built them, they replaced the allocated identification names given previously
I actually made a K'Tinga for Star Fleet Battles...bring a first Generation X-class level ship...it had the two Photon Torpedo launchers...and I set up the "Tight Beam Disruptor" for the Turreted Disruptors...making them sort of a Phaser/Disruptor Hybrid...using the Disruptor damage tables..but allowing them to count as "Phasers" for shooting at things like Drones, Shuttles/fighters & Plasma Torpedos. They had the expanded arcs as per the design drawings. (Two on the forward boom are the side plus the opposite forward arc. (LS+RF, RS+LF) Two on the aft boom are restricted side and corresponding front half (LF+L, RF+R) Top secondary are opposite of the forward Boom (LS+RR, RS+LR) and the bottom secondary are front and back arcs (FA+RA x2) straight on you could get all 8 in arc..sides you get 3 and rear you get 6) I played them alot as a proposed submission for Task Force...and they worked well...and were balanced....but when submitted...they were appreciated but there were copyright issues.
There is an ingame SFB 'K'Tinga variant' in the Captain's Log 3, where there is a story about the kidnapping of several crews (from different races) and ships by 'The Masters'. The Masters modified 4 of the ships they used in their wargames (mixing crews and captains of different ships with each other in fights, often to the death). There is a D7, modified with forward and rear Photon Torpedo tubes and some other bits (been too long for me to recall without trying to find the ol CL3.
My headcanon is that D6, D7 etc. are more like code names Starfleet assigned to them when they first saw the hulls. During the cold war era where getting too close or even hailing a Klingon ship might have gotten a response in form of photon torpedos.
Maybe this is just me, but I kind of hate both of these ships because the D7 fires disruptors out of its warp nacelles, which stupid, and then the K'tinga somehow replaces its deflector with a torpedo tube, and adds another torpedo tube in the back that looks identical, so where did the deflector go? Is the torpedo tube mounted inside the deflector? Then why does it have a second deflector on the back?
I'm really fond of Roddenberry's rules of warp travel, because it's what gives most of the iconic star trek ships their shape. It has to have a deflector at the front, and the nacelles need to have a line of sight to the front, back and each other. That's how you get awesome designs like the D'deridex, they make sense when you consider those rules. But with Klingon ships those rules start falling apart. You have the Klingon cruisers using both their deflector and their nacelles as weapons, and then the rules just go completely out of the window with the bird of prey because they slapped guns on the wings. Obviously it was meant to have nacelles on the wings at some point, since that explains the transforming wings, they have to fold up when it lands, but they fold down when it goes to warp so that the nacelles have a line of sight.
I think it's sad that they abandoned those rules, because I really like it when a scifi universe has something like that informing all of its ship designs, since to me it just raises the verisimilitude of that world significantly when not anything goes. Just like any airplane needs to have wings, some means of generating thrust and some kind of control surface to be able to steer it, and yet we have thousands of different designs. It just makes things more real when there are rules like that.
Where do i go to get involved in your wargame thingy you were speaking of? I always wanted to do the General War scenario using the Federation and Empire rules that came out in the 70's.
I wasn't aware of the idea of razee-ing a sailing ship. Interesting.
I always thought the D-7 refit into the K'Tinga class made sense as the Constitution class was getting a refit, and the Klingons didn't want to fall behind the Federation in ship capability. They renamed the ship to differentiate it from existing pre-refit D-7 still in service.
The exact size and configuration.. eh. I'm not that nitpicky. :)
According to the novelization of ST:TMP, the _K'Tinga_ was more heavily armed and had that the Romulan big plasma ball torpedo (TOS: Balance of Terror). Which it could fire from the fore and aft.
I don't mind the K'tinga being shorter than D7. I imagine that the D7 was built during a time when the Empire was trying to regain their institutional knowledge in certain areas that had been largely lost over the course of the mess that we find the Empire in at the start of DSC. This results in a D7 that is larger than it needed to be. The K'tinga would then be "D7, but now able to be built properly" along with other upgrades, such as extensive ones to weapons, developed in the years since the D7 entered service.
the Klingon Shipyards frequently made use of known Spaceframes that worked well, swapping interior components and payload for performing different roles.
the Bird of Prey and D-7 had many versions of these ships used and yes! some were of different sizes
this is why both the Bird of Prey and the D-7 had very long service lives.
When I was upgrading my own 3d model of the D-7 to the K't'inga, my review of the available blueprints (most notably the Kimble version with the official TMP branding) showed the 215m size actually makes sense without requiring the entire ship to shrink. The secondary hull has basically the same shape and size as the D7. The main shape and size of the command module is also similar, although the bridge decks and lower onion bulb have very obvious shape differences. The K't'inga nacelles are much thinner than the old Drell units, but the length and position is similar.
The main thing that accounts for the shorter length of the K't'inga is the neck, which is ~10m shorter than on the D-7. The neck is also one of the pieces with the most significant shape differences, up there with the nacelles and bridge.
Also, thank you for ignoring DS9 tech manual values. Every time I see that quoted definitively, I die a little inside.
Me too. My main issue which I didn't raise is the loss of a deck in the pizza sliced. That should be 2 decks tall.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 My analysis based on the shapes is that the thicker front of the D7 pizza slice is ~6m tall, which would be pretty short for for two full decks. the rear part is a well over 3m which makes sense as a single deck. The K't'inga part appears to be a little bit shorter, but not by much. If you accept two decks for the D7, I wouldn't see enough evidence on the model to contradict that on the K't'inga. Klingon ships of the era are a bit cramped, so it's reasonable. However, I would personally lean towards a single deck there on both versions, with any extra space taken by all the that targeting equipment and machinery supporting the front main disruptors.
My headcanon has always been that “D7” is a Federation designation for the ship class, and in movie-era Trek we finally get given its indigenous Klingon name
I saw that you showed at the end of the video a new/Revised version of the Klingon strikeforce from Klingon attack. And I saw that you replaced the kingon escort ship with what appears to be a refit F5 frigate. I was wondering if you changed your opinion about the F5 since it’s video and how it was replaced by the bird of prey?
In TMP, the Enterprise did not have the A after the NCC-1701. That didn't happen until after ST IV when they redesignated another Constitution ship to become the Enterprise A.
I'd be willing to wager that all 3 sizes exist. Considering how resource starved the Empire is, I believe there would be a greater number of smaller K'tinga variants. The larger variants could come in as command variants, flag ships, or simply ego padding for members of great houses, or esteemed members of the high counsel. I'm also looking at the size discrepancies the same way the birds of prey show up. Ranging from small near fighter / frigate size to cruiser size. Keep the same design but scale appropriately to its intended role and requisition.
K'tinga is a class name. D7 is the specific variants seen in the 2260's. Also instead of looking at it from Soviet tanks look at it from Soviet ship development. Same "model" different iteration all together.
My thoughts used to be that the D7 designation was something Starfleet came up with due to not knowing what the Klingons called their ships, D for destroyer type and 7 as a rough size classification. The TOS D7 would have had a Klingon class name, perhaps K'Tinga perhaps something else, but Starfleet wouldn't have known until relations thawed a bit in the 70s.
Recent canon has kinda nixed that, but it fits nicely with the cold war inspiration as NATO typically had their own designations for Soviet stuff, often well before they knew the chosen name.
This is what I always figured.
The razee is an interesting idea. Keeping the same power and engine systems. The smaller ship could make the ship more nimble or faster is ship to ship combat.
I love Star Trek, I have a 1/350 K'T'inga model behind me, and one day I'll even get around to masking of the bits for painting.
That said...for the love of all that's good and holy:
It
Doesn't
Matter
When they made the models for TMP, they made modern filming models, just like the Klingon makeup was actual prosthetics instead of long eyebrows
Neither was intended to be different to what's shown in a 1960's TV show.
It was a modern interpretation of the same things done with more spiffy new-fangled ideas.
That's it, that;'s all it ever was
Yet the insane fandom couldn't' accept this, it looked different, so it had to BE different, we even had that ridiculous plot line in Enterprise 'explaining' the lack of forehead ridges on TOS Klingons!
The D7 is the K't'inga
The Klingons are Klingons
The Bird of Prey changes sizes because the movie/TV makers at the time didn't care about how big something was supposed to be, but what looked good on the screen for that shot.
Also what about the artillery versions with Lance phasers we saw at the battle of DS9, where does that fit into the lineage?
Refit can mean so many different things for example the classic slight change to an existing ship refit. Then we have the Italian and British interwar rebuilds of WWI ships that were called refits such as HMS Warspite that were done to make old ships more capable and this is basically what the refit Enterprise is prior to her destruction over Genesis. Then there are ships from the 19th century USN which were actually completely of new design and construction but which were given the same name as the original and a few parts from that original and called a refit in order to get it past congressional bans on new build ships. This way the K'tingas could be differing forms of refit done by the Klingons on D7s as well as new build vessels
Will you post info on your wargame? and have you played Star Trek attack wing/ Alliance on tabletop?
To me, the largest K'tinga makes the most sense as a REFIT D7, usually refits add things or upgrade things. More powerful engines, or maybe tweeking some structural elements to either reduce stress on the hull, or improve handling or speed, not to mention improvements to firepower.
If we consider the K'tinga as a NEW ship, sharing a design liniage but not strictly a refit, i think that smallest size makes the most sense, for the more wolfpack style doctrine.
Dominion War. They were outfitted with mining phasers to allow them to strike long range, correct? Did this ever work well in a campaign?
Most references in the 90's suggest the D7 is 228m and the K'Tinga is 214m.
Which never made total sense to me either. I certainly agree and always will that the K'tinga is to the D7 as the Constitution Refit is to the original Constitution.
At 10:02. I've spent many hours battling that D7 in star fleet battles. It's got 4 front firing disruptors and a buttload of phaser 2s that have CRAZY firing arcs. Don't let it swoop around you and try to crack it hard in the #4 shield. Otherwise the damned thing just keeps pecking away while swooping in and out of range.
This discussion is similar to the Imperial Star Destroyer from Star Wars where very small differences in the ship design has fans and authors designating an Imperial I-class Star Destroyer and Imperial II-class Star Destroyer. I honestly don't think small differences need an explanation. I'm more inclined to think of intergalactic factions that need massive fleets to govern would be built at different locations, therefore small design changes would happen to certain ships based on the needs of that star system for whatever reason. It's fun to geek out about these discussions, but in my mind they are the same ships classes unless an obvious and big enough difference are apparent. I see the D-7 and K'tinga as the same design. Sometimes it's just better to keep things simple.
Per the FASA book in front of me:
K't'agga and K't'kara (D-7A and C) were 216m
K't'alla (D-7G) - first with Romulan Plasma Torpedo - were 218m
K't'inga (D-7M) - first with Photon Torpedoes - were 221m
Later models with cloaks or heavy disruptor instead of torpedoes fluctuated by a few meters either way)
Well, for better or worse, Disco has cemented in Canon that the first D7 was called the K'Tinga. So perhaps all of them were K'Tingas and "D7" was merely a federation designation?
I see a lot of "In my head canon". So i assumed that the D7 and the Ktinga are the same vessel the same way the TOS Klingons are the same species as the ST TMP Klingons. The TV show didn't have the resources to show the true Klingon form in both their physical appearance and the ship design. Then ST TMP comes around and has the cash flow to depict them true to their nature and form. God, I love talking about Star Trek.
I thought the basic idea was that Klingons generally use the same hull design and just scale it up and down as needed and fill it out with hardware differently.. .this explains the various D7/K'tinga versions, and the various BoP versions. Then came along TNG era, and they needed the *really* big ships.
Good information 😊😊
When he gets into the battle between Chang's BoP and the Enterprise he doesn't take into account that he wasn't using the disruptors. Phasers and disruptors are mainly used to deplete shields and for more surgical strikes for disabling. Torpedos are most effective when shields are doen to destroy the target completely or cause massive damage
One theory I have is that the klingons made the K'Tinga from the ground up and it was smaller one. Better tech takes up less space. The size discrepancy comes from refitting the older and larger D7/A with the new tech.
To me, the K'tinga was to the D 7 (which I always taken to be the Starfleet reporting name for it) what the T-80 was to the T-72 MBT. Basically a lot of the same parts with some upgrades thrown in and new armor.
I have historically thought of the K'tinga as a refit of the D7, or a sub-class.
It has to figure that the Klingon Empire found the D7 model suitable to their needs so improving it, upgrading it to a newer model, the K'Tinga. F18A-D were one size, then the F18E/F Super Hornet came into design/service being larger.
I think the best explanation is that its a refit of the D7. The changes between the two seem les than that between Constitution and Constitution - refit, and they don't call that a completely different ship. In my canon, its a refit.
In SFB the Klingons have a mix of disrupters, phasers and drones. Not “lesser disrupters”
The disrupters cause less damage but fire more frequently. So statistically they are identical to photons torpedos in damage caused over time.
to me, changing the proportions has a lot of sense-make in the context, since, you are effectively adjusting the warp-dynamics & therefore performance characteristics of the ship to meet its different role (makes quite a lot more sense than redesigning the whole ship to a different scale in order to slightly change it's size)
also, maybe because I've been thinking about those kinds of things, but it kind of makes sense that this ship is built for a different branch of the Klingon armed forces....
it is not that the Klingon Navy (or whatever you call the Nobility based force)itself had changed, (I do not think it did much by this point) but that the K'tinga is created part of a a mass army rather than one of the ancient knightly orders and its auxiliaries. I believe, such a conscripted "army" as I shall call it (as opposed to Navy) did exist before, but it has it's own culture and it's own separate command and honor hierarchy, as war changes, this force is allowed to take on a greater role... one that the traditional orders fail to fulfill
[Flying Dutchman] Stop starin' at me with them big-ol eyes!
[Gowron] (Shrinks eyes)
I personally like the idea of it being a slightly beefed up D7 but that's my two cents. I guess i like the 230 m version the most.