Exactly I was at the Axpona for the entire day in the Chicago area a few months after my Heart Transplant, throughout the day everything started to sound the same and burned me out on Hifi and Home Theater for a couple years.
I know there’s a difference in speakers even if it isn’t sonically that’s why there are speakers for you desk top and speakers for concerts. All the companies brought their best, something that would impress on the scale of room closer to a commercial theater than an average size living room. Here’s an idea for next year, have Magic Beans do two setups, one in a traditional size room and a second in the massive room, so people can really understand the amount of strain an average speaker is under just to be heard compared to what the best has to offer.
Good to see you at MWAVE! I think the SVS room was a good showcase of a budget-friendly setup. The equipment there was definitely attainable for most people and it sounded great. Also, it is probably easier to tell the difference with pricier speakers if you are just listening to music. In a home theater setting with 8-12 speakers going full blast, definitely much harder to differentiate
The first and last room at Mwave 2024 I went in was SVS. They were playing below reference level, but cranked it up upon request. Those Ultra Evolution Pinacles got plenty loud and sounded great on just AVR power, but my suspicion is the surround and Atmos channels can't keep up at louder volumes which may not be any issue for many people. This was in a room that's way larger than anyone's at a home. I like to listen at reference level or above and did an interesting experiment in my garage in which I ordered some very loud speakers that had some of the worst measurements from Erin's audio corner. With them connected to an AVR with room correction and aided by a subwoofer, they sound good to me and everyone who has heard them. The in-room response measures well. I also have good $500+ headphones and all of us have a lifetime of experience hearing HiFi real life sound, but of course someone's got to sell you something and those who got sold need to justify their purchase....
It’s absolutely true. I have heard several very expensive theaters ranging from Wisdom audio/Trinnov, Kef/Yamaha Seps, and Sonus Faber/McIntosh. These were $100k-$250k theaters and aside from the projector, my $7k ($10k including furniture) set up keeps up and even best the others in some areas. Thankfully I did all that research first to realize I can achieve near the same outcome for a 10th the cost (all gear sound hand).
Agreed. When speakers are uncalibrated, it's pretty easy to tell the differences between them, especially in the top end, but once they are calibrated to achieve a flat response, it's harder to tell them apart. Maybe at higher spl levels do the more expensive speakers differentiate from other due to higher power handling, less compression and distortion.
Once you pass certain amount, you're paying not only for sound quality; you get into industrial design, cabinet and parts exotic materials, finish, exclusivity, etc...
It is all about the disposable income that you want to invest in your experience. Speakers are only as good as the components supporting them. I went to AXPONA and enjoyed going from room to room. People just need to decide what they are after in their experience.
I went to my local audio store , tested a range of speakers , walked out with a great 7.2.2 package from Monitor Audio with a mid range AV by Sony total cost around 4.5k and have loved it ever since . It’s the best package at just delivering great sound at that price point and that’s more than enough for my front room cinema set up .
Great video Kpace. I feel the same way about most home theater systems. A really good setup with proper treatments will result in similar outcomes regardless of the company you purchase your speakers from.
I would like to walk into a room like that to see system in a normal household man cave with system that would cost about eight thousand dollars total for a 5.1.2 something reasonable in a normal home.
I hear you man. At some point the speaker is just bought for having the product, not enjoying the experience. It’s like expensive jewelry. Whether that is for personal validation or to tell their circle about owning 75k speakers (most people in fact don’t care about that person owning these hyperspeakers). Even if you overanalyze your sound, just get studio monitors.
I’ve only been to Audio Advice Live in 2022. It was the first year and I had a good time hearing what reviewers were hearing but price IS a factor to me. My personal evolution of home theater over the years has been giant. It started in 2001 with a $400 msrp AIWA stereo and turntable, then a 5.1 JVC HTIB for $300 in 2003 when I bought a Mitsubishi 55in projection television. I was the first to go HD in my circle and I loved it. Now it’s 4K 77in OLED with Klipsch speakers, a MAJOR upgrade for myself. I am happy with my current setup and honestly this is probably endgame for me. Sure, the higher priced stuff may be prettier and fancier but it’s just me enjoying my home theater. I’m fine watching a movie or playing a game with what I have.
Yeah. Try setting up one of those systems in a New York City Studio Apartment. You'll be chase out of the building by your Landlord and Tenants with torches. All kidding aside. The Audio/Video Realm has become more of a "Niche" Market in the last decade or so. Gear used to be so widely available and affordable. Being able to achieve even the best of Sound quality for under $2K. Many of these Audio/Video events hardly take the "budget" consumer/hobbyist into account anymore. Not like the Golden Days of the 70s/80s when I began purchasing equipment in My youth. Most, if not all the TH-cam Channels tend to be geared towards High-End now. As are these events. Being in My early 60s now, I can't even see Myself buying gear above $3k. I find it nonsensical to Me personally. Not that I'm disparaging others who can within a higher income bracket. Great Video.
You might of just heard accuracy, on top of which a person could add their own flavour (with eq) to tailor the sound to exactly how they want it. I guess this should be the goal! The other thing is take one of these setups, put it in the room of every one in the comments. Level match no eq it will sound different in each room. Now do this with each different manufacturer, some variable or other may cause what you hear with each manufacturer to differ, now we have a case for a preference. Now add looks, design, build quality, speaker type, in wall, on wall, ported sealed, what works best for the room, brand recognition etc etc etc You then see there are multiple differences to these things that sound the same. Great conversation starter Kpace. You deserve the engagement on this one!
im a budget spender. i will eventually upgrade my klipsch reference setup up to the reference premier 2s. I have listened to those and I can clearly here the difference between what i have. I have a 5.2.2 moving to a 5.2.4 with a max of 7.2.4. That will be the end of my journey. My current setup at reference level is loud and can run you out of my living room. I do want to here the difference in Kaleidescape to see if I can tell a difference with a normal budget home setup. But as much as I love music and home theater I cant justify spending 5k + on 1 or 2 speakers. It must a phenomenal difference in sound and clarity.
It was awesome meeting you at MWAVE! And youthman hit the nail on the head. Also have to consider all the rooms are pretty huge compared to our home theater spaces. So they need more large speakers to pressurize the space and impress us hardcore theater nerds. But yeah totally diminishing returns. I upgraded my projector from a Jvc rs400u to a full 4k Jvc rs2000 and no average non theater nerd friends that have come in my room knew I ever changed the projector.
Also the movie theater screen was the 4:3 size like TV's used to be 25 years ago. But the movie fix nicely on the screen no borders. Surprised to see a Dolby Digital movie theater in 2024. Just 3 speakers each side & 2 in the back total of 8 but could be wired for 4 speakers + Center and Sub for 5.1. Saw the Dolby Digital demo right before Horizon started. 9 Screens at Triangle Square Starlight Cinemas but only 1 is Dolby Atmos. Heard good bass coming from another screen near mine. Overall it was decent sound and picture for paying $5 Tuesday deal. Going to Dos Lagos in Corona next time it's a much newer theater.
I have some martin Logans that were about 4K for the pair, I think this is the highest I’m going, I’m happy with the sound, I was afraid to move from Klipsch because I love horn tweeters but I am pleased that my Martin logans sound great to what I like to hear, I do believe there does reach a point where you can’t tell when implemented properly, what they should do in these conventions is demo their lower end stuff against each other to the normal consumer, that’s where the real challenges are
@@CarlVanDoren61 uh that’s pretty obvious for the cost lol I’m not willing to spend that much, also I have never seen magnepan incorporated into home theater
My limit is 500 bucks per speaker, for the mains up from 100$. 6+ years ago I went with SVS Prime LCR and 4 satellites 2 PB-1000s for 7.2 Setup now it's 5.2.2. I'm very happy ☺
Main problem is people are not waiting to savd and buy a better one they are buying skme thing and at the end of the day they dont loke the sounx anx again hint begins😂.
I think $999 rule Each for: Receiver, Subwoofer and Towers. HSU 15 & SVS SB2000 are both in the $900 range too. Except for amps like Denon AVR-X3800H is $1,300. My friend spent $7,000 for his Towers but they are tall panels super narrow depth just for audiophile music.
@@parupudiphanindra3126 My friend had perfect awesome speakers and he keeps getting newer different brands every 5-10 years. I think not being happy it part of it.
I agree there is a law of diminishing returns. I think they key where your equipment holds up is at volume. Out of the rooms, I felt JTR was really the only room that held detail and dynamics at high volumes with no distortion and without shrillness. I definitely wouldn't mind hearing some more budget systems at the event though I think dirac is partially to blame as well. I wouldnt mind them running a two channel demo with no dirac so we can hear what the engineers developed as well
$900 Range was my budget system: $300+tax for Vizio M51 Atmos Soundbar (9 speakers) $285+Tax OSD Trevoce 12's subwoofer & $250+tax Onkyo THX Atmos Receiver ($100 off Prime Visa). But probably another $90-100 for all the Cables= RCA, LFE, 10 AWG plug for subwoofer. When I build a real theater room probably try to spend $5K Max plus the 98" LED TV.
Movie Theaters are still way different. I used to work at Irvine Spectrum Regal 21 but it was Edwards 21 when I worked there in 1998. They have remodeled a few times upgrading the sound and RPX screens are the best now. Imax is their premier screen and sound. AMC the theaters that opened up in the last 5-8 years are better but newer always better. If I had to guess total theaters in America I would say maybe 50% have true Dolby Atmos setup. AMC in Bonita by Chula Vista I could see all the Ceiling speakers.
Going tonight for $5 movie theater deal at Starlight Cinemas. 'A Quiet Place Day One' at 9 or 10 pm. There is Dos Lagos and Triangle Square in my area but the New Movie Theater opened last year in Rancho Cucamonga they probably have the best sound system.
I bought the ticket for 10 pm A Quiet Place, but after eating dinner at Yard House next door- BBQ Bacon burger & Allagash Curiex goblet, got to the Theater 10:25 pm so I exchanged the ticket for 'Horizon' the Kevin Costner western movie. Was a small older theater like 1997-2004 type but new seats. Speakes was 3 on each side and 2 in the back for 8 Total but No Ceiling at all. Right before the movie starts I saw the Dolby Digital sound demo and i said out loud, "Oh Wow this is Old". But the Picture quality was pretty good and the sound not bad for $5. This is also why i did not see 'A Quiet Place Day One' at there was only 1 screen in the whole theater with Dolby Atmos and the movie was 3 pm. Next Tuesday I will go to the location in South Corona that's a newer theater.
Thanks for the post Kpace. They are there to sell you equipment. At the end of the day it comes down to dollars. They will throw everything in a room they have to do it. There is a reason behind the madness. Matching your equipment is more important than 16 subs in a room. I will leave it there.
I wish vendors would bring their lower tier stuff and try to make fantastic-sounding rooms with the LEAST amount of stuff possible. I EXPECT amazing sound for 200K. I can only be disappointed at that price point, honestly. Law of diminishing returns, for sure. I'm more inclined to buy if I hear something amazing and i'm like "wow, that's all you have in here?!" Don't get me wrong...still awesome to see the best the industry has to offer.
I see your point but I could tell a difference in the rooms. The most unique sounding room for sure was the Martin Logan room for the same reason you said. The electrostatic sound is very different from a compression driver. A tuba will never sound like a trumpet. JTR, Ascendo and Grimani use compression drivers so they will have a similar sound but the materials used will bring out nuances in their drivers. None of the rooms were treated except the Grimani room. That was the only room where they built a truss setup and hung diffusers and absorbers in it from what I remember. The 2ch Ascendo room with the Black Swans and the two 32” subs was the best sounding room to be. Beryllium tweeters have a completely different sound to other tweeter materials and when used with a horn, it really stands head and shoulders above the rest. The diminishing returns still applies though but if a person can afford it, hey God bless them.
Yeah I watched it and was like nice cinema room… like you can go to cinema and get the same . Those setups were missing one key ingredient- they didn’t feel like home theaters at all. Show me small room that people typically utilize with 7.1.4 setup, speakers that not massive that can’t fit in regular spaces and get it to perform and then we’re talking. Otherwise it’s not getting close to cinema sound in home setup- it’s basically creating cinema. 100% what you’re saying I agree
Honestly though, these high end rooms are WAY better than your average cinema now. I mean, way way better. I'm sure there are cinemas out there with mind blowing gear, but most of them spend way less. Someone recently said $20 grand on speakers in an average little cinema - I wouldn't trust that place to beat my system, and my system isn't anything remarkable, some entry B&Ws, a couple of solid BK Electronics subs etc.
I'll piggyback to @KimmoJaskari Most public cinemas don't even sound better than even my home theater and my speakers and equipment total maybe $50k. The rooms at this event smoke any public movie theater. Picture quality, sound, calibration. You won't experience higher end audio than what some of these rooms brought. And I think it's because the mass majority of people going to a movie theater go because they don't have a theater in their own home and/or they want the vibes a public theater brings. Not necessarily because of how it sounds.
@@KpaceguyI think people were missing the point of what you were saying. At that LEVEL of audio they sound very similar. You weren’t saying all speakers sound the same. I was there at MWAVE and listened to Ascendo, Grimani, and RBH. They were hard to rank because they all sounded incredible but would absolutely destroy any local theater. I’ve never heard systems that good but the 3 of them were very similar in a lot of aspects.
@@Kpaceguy I guess it depends on cinema you have around. But I had in mind top end - dual imax laser 12 channels one that produces tactile bass in a massive space at ref volume - but that’s one of 12 in the world based in London. Otherwise I do prefer my home cinema over the average one indeed.
I think one reason people with more modest means get cranky about MadVR or even Kaleidescape is just the wild cost you start racking up after a while. MadVR costs what it costs - because they want to charge that much. The hardware and software isn't all that, out of $20 grand it's worth maybe $3-4 grand. Except of course they're targeting the affluent market. Either way, unless a nice lottery win comes my way, I'm highly unlikely to spend $75 or $100 grand on a home theater ever. My current system slots in comfortably under $10 grand. I'd be much more interested in systems where people have achieved greatness *at reasonable expenditures* by just doing something exceptional or finding exceptional value. How close can you get to optimal 20+ speaker setups at home for money a mere mortal can spend? But yes - there are absolutely diminishing returns. And I suspect with modern speaker design and materials, the range from affordable to expensive has narrowed, too, the lower end is better. It almost has to be unless the manufacturer is literally making the speakers worse than they have to be just for reasons of greed.
Its a bit like the cell phone market atm, updating your phone atm is hardly worth it as the improvements are so miniscule now. But tbh my spakers alone cost around £1,700 when new...so feels like i have a budget set up when you are talking about the price of these speakers. They obviously are. 😂
Another point I would like to add is the "Future" is streaming services (Netflix,Prime...) and both the audio and video is compressed. So spending a hudge amount on audio video equipment makes absolutely no sense to me. Streaming Services such as Disney + and so on only use 5.1.2 Dolby Surround. Makes no sense. That's like spending $100,000 on an audio system and only listening to FM Radio.
Well said sir. I’m not sure an audio engineer could tell the difference. I would think most people on your channel have a more modest budget. Great video!
I think it's a solution in search of a problem. In hifi and home cinema, there are generally accepted, measurable objective markers of good performance, and those will be more apparent, on average, in higher-end products and setups. At the same time, MWAVE is very much an event for enthusiasts, and the companies there are generally considered leaders in the space, and with some wiggle-room for whether we should chase infrasonics in subwoofers, it's also a space where objective performance is prioritized. So if they bring their A-game, unless we're talking going beyond reference and bragging-rights, there are only so many "correct" solutions. I would love for a value-oriented event where you had more "average-Joe systems", something like what SVS brought to CES IIRC, where they had two subs and a decent 5.1.2 setup, but when you're attending an event targeted at a crowd that dream of 140 dB at 10 Hz and 150" screens with 17 channels, you'll bring equipment that showcases this.
200% agree with you! --> "I would love for a value-oriented event where you had more "average-Joe systems", something like what SVS brought to CES IIRC, where they had two subs and a decent 5.1.2 setup" Sure a "Lambo" is great, but those of us that have average or lower incomes would like to see something we "might" be able to afford. Let's see what we can be done with a beer budget. Thanks for your post.
It's cost effective to buy a lower end speaker or older top end speaker and upgrade the crossover with better parts and to correct acoustic issues and add no-rez to the enclosure
This is the journey ... Getting " the best for you " at the ' most economic price for performance " possible. Everything is going to make things sound slightly different, ..but 100% important to know oneself .. and decide Enough is Enough.
Hopefully Youthman is reading your comments for positive feedback. I’m glad folks are being transparent. It’s nice being able to see and hear the big guns at MWAVE, most of your viewers are saying….its not realistic to the majority of home theater enthusiasts. Maybe a section of the expo showcasing mock living room setups. Some open floor living room, boxed living rooms and bedrooms, garage gyms, etc. I do miss the old days of Youthman but at the same time I’m proud of his accomplishments and growth. Kyle, thank you for having the courage to make this video and speak from the heart. 😎
As others have mentioned its Law of Diminishing Returns as well the fact that If company X can produce 10x the amount of a speaker they can sell it "cheaper"....while company Y can produce a speaker that is pretty much equal to company X's speaker but they are small company and can only produce a fraction of them....those will cost more. Both speakers are essentially equal in terms of performance. Economics of Scale. For me I can tell the difference between a $100 speaker and a $1000 speaker...maybe(doubtful) even a $10,000 speaker...beyond that its not about performance or sound...its about bragging rights and aesthetics. Then we have things like Kscape which is pretty much entirely about bragging rights since what the product "produces" does not match up to the price.
This is partly why Im DIY'ing all of my speakers and subs. I'm definitely getting a better cost/value ratio, and it's definitely more fun than simply throwing money at it
@@thr0nic I started with kits, and have graduated to purchasing plans from trusted designers and doing all of the woodworking and assembly myself. Along the way, I've been collecting tools, test equipment and reference materials, working towards my ultimate goal of designing and building something all my own
I don't see a problem with what was shown and brought to bear. I looked at what we saw was an order of magnitude above a Magnolia room at a box retailer. This also provided an opportunity to listen to speakers in different rooms that a local integrator may not have the ability or space to showcase a bunch of different. In my case I did hear a difference in sound which may be attributed to turning/calibration, room treatment, choice of product, etc. As far as budgets this conference is wide open so seeing a wide array of vendors at price points is good and I would have to assume Michael reaches out to the gamut of OEM's and who shows up are those that support the community. In the rooms I could definitely hear a difference in not only base but also tone and clarity in dialogue that it was noticeable. In my case I do have a speaker and treatment set from one of the vendors and it is significantly better than a decent system that I previously had. In my specific project the intent was saving for 12 months for a theater that I would not have to tinker with for the next decade other than possibly a projector upgrade. The key was planning, understanding intent of space, a ton of research on room isolation and treatment, and reaching out to people who are experts in those domains. But in my case I don't DIY on this part but do so on control systems. I think to each their own and this was equivalent of a car show - who shows up to an 'all-call' request to come is who you get and enjoy the experience.
HiFi/home theater (for those with the means) is about squeezing that last drop of perceived performance out of a system. 95% of the population is happy with a sound bar or even built in speakers. It’s the pursuit of perfection, damn the cost.
They should do some rooms that are laid out as a living room or even just the size of a normal spare room like 20x15 or something. And make it a rule that it has to pass WAF if it’s a shared space.
The secret is out. Show me a sound enthusiast and I'll show you a reason for my out of reach sound systems to exist. I'll draw you in and send you away with the "affordable" system I intended to sell you all along. Sound enthusiast here who just recently went from Andrew Jones Pioneer 9.2 after a decade to Prime Pinnacles, four Prime bookshelf 4 Prime heights and duel PB 2000 Pro's. I had the Primes and originally thought I would stay with duel Airmotiv SE12's which sounded great from the Primes alone, but adding the PB 2000 Pro's brought this system to END GAME for me. Out of reach stuff does drive the tech, and that tech does trickle down on the peasant class for which I am very thankful :)
"Peasant Class" Yes, that's me and proud of it. We are the friendlier group of audiophiles. Rock'n a very budget used/fixed/scratch n dent 7.2.4, 70" 1080p here.
I would start by saying keyword Hobby. We all have different entry points and honestly some have no ending point. Events like this are more educational and exposure to offerings generally not seen or heard at a big box store and unfortunately audio salons are far and few these days. My approach is maybe I dont buy the full cart systems being displayed but maybe the Sub(s), Speakers, or Amp. Sometimes the premium tech does trickle down. Final thought is this event grows every year so maybe the next challenge is to set up a few smaller rooms and mix and match High,Mid, and Entry components.
Sure it is good experience to hear these high end systems but let’s face it 90% of HT’s are no where near the cost. These companies are really only appealing to a small subsection of HT enthusiasts.
I think the reason they all sound the same it's because they are in the same room environment which causes the same sound. Nice to see the high end but i think only Svs show cased a system that most more owns or will own they should have like that. I bet if they decided to make each room be 2 rooms instead of a single big room it can be will make the vendors set up a more realistic set up. Plus they can get more vendors to display but don't if people would still want to attend to experience an average every day set up.
I've felt the same way watching all these MWave videos. I'd like to go but at some point it's not worth it as nothing there is attainable. It'd be nice to see different price range rooms for each brand. This could the be the same for audio and video there.
I do hope that more "average joe" rooms show up as mwave continues to grow BUT the tech talks and seminars are an excellent way to learn some high level knowledge and apply it to any home theater regardless of your price point!
I agree, all of these systems were quality, but I don’t agree that they all sounded the same. For example, the top 4 rooms(JTR, RBH, Grimani, and Ascendo) all had easily distinguishable attributes, strengths and weaknesses, etc.
JTR was better, at least in these 2 examples. The JTR’s had far more infrasonic output, tactile feel, and overall impact. I do feel like the Ascendo room was capable of more, but they had it dialed back compared to JTR. Completely different approach.
I agree with @brucecarter6205 JTR could be heard from the other end of the venue. The subs and speakers are literally the same height, with the subs being wider. Vs 16 pretty compact, SEALED subs from Ascendo. You can obviously hear a difference from a bass standpoint just from volume level alone. I think it's quite easy to be impressed when things are loud. But I was very impressed with the 16 ascendo subs because they were incredibly smooth, and you could feel them even though they were all upfront. If space and money were no object, most people would take the JTR subs and know they would never need to upgrade ever again. So it is safe to say the JTR subs are simply better, but the Ascendo subs will appeal to far more people. JTR is digging much deeper, but the Ascendos are playing up to 1khz, which no other sub in the venue can do, which makes it very friendly with sound bars and small satellite and bookshelf speakers. You look at the JTR subs, and you expect crazy loud with clean bass. You look at the Acsendo sub, and you may not know what to expect, and then boom, you're pleasantly surprised with what you hear. I think they're both 2 very different subs.
I’ve almost been tempted to sell my Klipsch RF7 system for Kef Meta but I was worried for - well yes I’d imagine the jump in performance be noticeable, but worth it noticeable? Idk, but the huge drop in efficiency too since I just run things on an AVR which means I’d have to also make a jump to separates… it just seemed like to much..
While I tend to agree with the video as I had a similar experience last year. I think some of it comes from experience. I’m not a critical listener I haven’t been able to hear enough different setups to pick up on differences. You however have multiple rooms in your group that you have heard many get togethers. Not to mention your understanding of taking measurements and how things work in general gives you the upper hand over an average enthusiast. I mean no disrespect as I love your content I just think in this scenario experience definitely makes a difference.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The rooms I went into were by far the most expensive rooms I've ever heard. All of them. And the gear used was the first time I've ever been in the same room as that quality of gear. Which I think is the same for 89% of the people who attended. If I spent more time hearing this level of audio, I'd learn more about what I'm hearing. I mean I went to school for this stuff lol but to walk in, get a 10 minute demo, walk out, go to another 10 minute demo, the differences are not easy to hear at least not for movies. Music, I'd definitely have a much easier chance.
The only thing i will say about your video is i hope you can tell the difference between say an AMT tweeter and a compression driver from jtr if not that means there both doing a really good job in terms of making a neutral, sounding speaker
For me. This is just for me. It seems like. These companies are probably using the same tech. For example. The same receivers. Power amps. Processors and yes. Room correction software. I’d like to think that a different brand of sound processing. Would make the speakers sound different. Maybe it’s just me.
This game reminds me of the Scotch whiskey crowd and their who's the greatest game of bones for your money.....home audio has dissatisfaction as its greatest marketing tool..if your faith is in money, if it costs more, it has to be better....until its not.
As much as I'd really go to MWAVE next year it would like me spending a weekend at the Playboy Mansion - look but don't touch - you can't afford any of it.
@@Kpaceguy Yes Sir. That's all a worthless broke POS like me can afford is the info. And, a few big smile handshakes with the "big guys". If they need someone to clean up the mess after the show I'm the guy. That's my value on this planet.
The reason that ALL "no holds barred" sound systems all sound the same, is because there is a THX "standard" and EVERYONE tunes thier systems to strictly adhere to this standard. 100% of the rooms are "treated" and the speakers "equalized" to this end. However, unless you have the money to fully replicate this at your home. The speakers "personalities" will reveal themselves in "your" setup.
100 bucks on a soundbar, better than the tv 1000 bucks on a decent receiver and some speakers, sounds better 10k on a hi fidelity setup, definately better. My advice if you need more after that, build it yourself. End of story
I think you are right there are ranges of speakers that are all close. If you compare a Wilson to a mid range KEF you'll hear a big difference. If you are in the same dollar amount the only difference will come with different concepts. So a KEF blade will sound entirely different than a B&W or the Wilson. However if you put me in a room blindfolded I probably couldn't tell the difference from a KEF blade to a Magnapan (with good woofers). I think theater for better or worse are all mid range speakers.
"Theater for better or worse are all mid range speakers." Possibly the opposite depending on your point of view. A lot of high end speakers (RE: Expensive) can't even properly reproduce reference levels. Those poor silk dome tweaters don't stand a chance. If all you listen to is soft jazz at 80db that's fine, but the world of audio is so much bigger than that for many people. Large dynamic transients is where a lot of the fun is in music for me.
@@ryankramer idk what you are considering mid range or high end. I've never heard of a high end speaker not able to hit reference levels. Do you have any reference to that? I have a diy scanspeak bookshelf that I've pushed well into the 100db range no problem. Of course those soft dome tweeters are around $300 each. I can't see high end not hitting reference levels. On the other end I've heard some pretty junky klipsch theaters locally.
@@theoracleprodigy It's the last few db that's tricky. 105db peaks at listener's seat is reference. That kills a lot of speaker choices right there. The poor Perlisten room at last year's MWAVE cooked a couple of their speakers trying to pull off the feat. It's trickier still if you need some leeway in the high freq to EQ issues you may have which requires even more SPL leeway. (And I have no love for a lot of Klipsch, they're kinda screachy for me at higher levels.) A pair of something like 805 D4's from B&W would be something that would stand no chance in this scenario. Not even the KEF Blade One Meta can hit 105 in my room. (88 db sensitivity * 400 watts - 5 meter sitting distance = 103db) The point is there is some mid-tier gear out there that does a lot of things better than some higher priced gear depending on your sound quality priorities. (Low distortion, wide horizontal/vertical patterns, etc.) Hope that all makes sense! 🙂
@@ryankramer I've never tried to push speakers to reference levels so I'll take your word for it I guess. My theater room has a pair of Focal 1038be. Those have a peak power rating of 400 watts and 93 db sensitivity. They would hit volumes I wouldn't want to hear for sure. I've turned them up a bit but never really pushed them. I'm sure the beryllium tweeter would hold together just fine.
Too much money. Wanna hear a REAL secret? Don't muck about... Just get active Studio monitors and play like a professional. You'll be SHOCKED at the difference, and usually for le$$. Eg: KRK 10-3, Kali IN-8, PreSonus Eris Pro Coaxial, MTM iLoud, Tannoy Gold... ,
Doesn't this actually points to success of standardization like dolby, room correction, etc. in making the experience good and, for the most part, reproducible (given sufficient $ investment)? i.e. a good achievement..
Definitely the law of diminishing returns but I think you're also running up against the fact that once you introduce more than two speakers into a system it gets harder which each additional speaker to differentiate the difference in sound and quality. It's why you get away with not install KEF blades in your ceiling.
@@Kpaceguy Home theatre is really about inviting friends and family into a room that will be a unique experience for them. In my 7000 hours of use in my home theatre, I am not sure my family or my guests really care about the equipment details or the cost. It would seem to me what impresses most is: (1) the size of the screen (2) Image quality (3) “clarity” of dialogue. After that, as youthman said: It’s the law of diminishing returns. In my very humble opinion, spending anything more than at the “budget level” is to make YOU HAPPY, at which point the - home theatre sky is the limit - as exemplified by MWAVE - but do your GUESTS (family members included) really care? In my experience, I don’t think so - yet it is for them that you are creating the room in the first place - so why go overboard? A budget dollar amount in overall good basic equipment is nothing to sneeze at (in dollar amounts) in my experience. In my humble opinion, there is a threshold where “enough is enough”. In my case, “budget equipment” is sufficient to get the job done to the point where “everyone” will be HAPPY! It is good the MWAVE brings folks together to “witness and experience what is possible” but then maybe even MWAVE has gone “overboard too?” Maybe the organizers need to consider “different phases” of home theatre and illustrate what is possible at each phase and illustrate those to make the show even - more relevant - next year?
Funny, i hav Never been to this show yet. I wanna go but what i hav been thinking u already said - lol... They want Ppl to travel across the country to see a bunch of rooms playing the same demo's.. Being a Retired IMAX projectionist. These shows are Only geared towards the Rich. Which is sad because they are Not producing theater sound. These rooms are missing so much equipment that these shows don't hav. So, they are Not teaching Ppl about True theatre sound at all. Jus playing a movie Loud don't make it better and don't qualify as True movie sound. Their speaker calibration is base on 7-9 EQ band🙄That's a joke. Each speaker in my basement system has a 31 band EQ which is how u do it EQ'ing ur system. Plus, their speakers are basically Highend Audio speakers Not Theater speakers. With the exception of JTR and that's a Big If.. I hav 2 18" Bass Bin Scoops which is the same in the theaters. Spending 5k, 10k, 15k even 20k don't make a system sound great. It's how u tune it. And the best way to do is Manually. Not some built-in calibration that's not all that good to Me.. That's why i tune All my speakers myself. Maybe IMAX spoiled me but i've heard some systems that cost over $50k - $100k. And they jus try to impress u by playing at levels that no normal person would watch a movie like that anyway... Most likely going to this show might be good jus to meet other Ppl in the same hobby but knowing me. I probably won't be impressed at all. 🙂🙂
You should probably hear some of these systems before you judge. I’ve been to plenty of IMAX theaters and none of them can touch the top 3 or 4 rooms at MWAVE this year.
@brucecarter6205 One thing u must know about certain IMAX theaters. They r not run by IMAX Projectionist. They ticket takers, food preps etc. And in the control booth changing all the settings. So, Ppl r Not hearing or watching true IMAX and it's a shame. Every since I retired IMAX experience has been goin Down.
Hey KSpaceMan, Why was my post removed when nothing offensive was posted, just my personal opinion agreeing with you & just asking for the little guy in the room to have the ability to walk into a show that is affordable to a reasonable price point? I’m not bashing these shows, just that these shows I feel are all for wealthy. You yourself said or felt like everyone brought their best? Not hearing a difference in higher priced speakers?! These TH-cam shows on these channels since Covid have changed in the past few years, based on bigger & better. I get it, but the way the economy has been, let’s be realistic….upper class yuppies are buying these products, not your average Joe! I’m sure some of your watchers are going to bash me for what I’m saying, that’s fine! Just remember where you came from.
TH-cam automatically flags things that are offensive, so I have to go back and review it and approve it. I didn't see your comment yet, so I'll go approve it. But TH-cam removes comments on its own, and it doesn't always get it right.
That’s fine KMan, but I did post in reference to your experience at the show. I received a response from an individual by email stating that this wasn’t a forum for the average Joe theater enthusiast. I guess that to be true, since not everyone can afford the equipment that not only you but others channels as well touting how great their high end product is, but as you say…I can’t tell a difference! I try to help out people I know and come across to put together a system that not only works for them, but is affordable. I just feel that most of these TH-cam shows have lost the way of the theater experience for the average Joe! I myself have a lot of hard earned money invested in my own home theater, but for most aren’t like you & I? Look at some of these systems that some of your colleagues have on TH-cam they tout and travel to other homes that are equally awesome in their own way, that’s not middle America? Thanks for listening, I guess I’m remembering the days of my old roll dial Sherwood stereo & giant 2 fisher speakers. Ask yourself, how many of your viewers can afford a system over $2000 or what percentage for that matters? Have great day a great day bud! Oh yeah, the dude that replied to my 2 cents, post isn’t there either!
The Law of Diminishing Returns
Exactly I was at the Axpona for the entire day in the Chicago area a few months after my Heart Transplant, throughout the day everything started to sound the same and burned me out on Hifi and Home Theater for a couple years.
I know there’s a difference in speakers even if it isn’t sonically that’s why there are speakers for you desk top and speakers for concerts. All the companies brought their best, something that would impress on the scale of room closer to a commercial theater than an average size living room. Here’s an idea for next year, have Magic Beans do two setups, one in a traditional size room and a second in the massive room, so people can really understand the amount of strain an average speaker is under just to be heard compared to what the best has to offer.
But you need a $250,000 Home Theatre to watch Barbie...and Madame Web
Good to see you at MWAVE!
I think the SVS room was a good showcase of a budget-friendly setup. The equipment there was definitely attainable for most people and it sounded great. Also, it is probably easier to tell the difference with pricier speakers if you are just listening to music. In a home theater setting with 8-12 speakers going full blast, definitely much harder to differentiate
Fully agree
The first and last room at Mwave 2024 I went in was SVS. They were playing below reference level, but cranked it up upon request. Those Ultra Evolution Pinacles got plenty loud and sounded great on just AVR power, but my suspicion is the surround and Atmos channels can't keep up at louder volumes which may not be any issue for many people. This was in a room that's way larger than anyone's at a home. I like to listen at reference level or above and did an interesting experiment in my garage in which I ordered some very loud speakers that had some of the worst measurements from Erin's audio corner. With them connected to an AVR with room correction and aided by a subwoofer, they sound good to me and everyone who has heard them. The in-room response measures well. I also have good $500+ headphones and all of us have a lifetime of experience hearing HiFi real life sound, but of course someone's got to sell you something and those who got sold need to justify their purchase....
It’s absolutely true. I have heard several very expensive theaters ranging from Wisdom audio/Trinnov, Kef/Yamaha Seps, and Sonus Faber/McIntosh. These were $100k-$250k theaters and aside from the projector, my $7k ($10k including furniture) set up keeps up and even best the others in some areas. Thankfully I did all that research first to realize I can achieve near the same outcome for a 10th the cost (all gear sound hand).
Agreed. When speakers are uncalibrated, it's pretty easy to tell the differences between them, especially in the top end, but once they are calibrated to achieve a flat response, it's harder to tell them apart. Maybe at higher spl levels do the more expensive speakers differentiate from other due to higher power handling, less compression and distortion.
@@LeeLee-fi7mx
Experience Clarisys & Alsyvox 🤓
Martin Logan still the only speakers to break my brain with how they create their sound
Once you pass certain amount, you're paying not only for sound quality; you get into industrial design, cabinet and parts exotic materials, finish, exclusivity, etc...
Absolutely
It is all about the disposable income that you want to invest in your experience. Speakers are only as good as the components supporting them. I went to AXPONA and enjoyed going from room to room. People just need to decide what they are after in their experience.
I went to my local audio store , tested a range of speakers , walked out with a great 7.2.2 package from Monitor Audio with a mid range AV by Sony total cost around 4.5k and have loved it ever since . It’s the best package at just delivering great sound at that price point and that’s more than enough for my front room cinema set up .
Great video Kpace. I feel the same way about most home theater systems. A really good setup with proper treatments will result in similar outcomes regardless of the company you purchase your speakers from.
I would like to walk into a room like that to see system in a normal household man cave with system that would cost about eight thousand dollars total for a 5.1.2 something reasonable in a normal home.
I'm with you! But, with even less $$.
I hear you man.
At some point the speaker is just bought for having the product, not enjoying the experience. It’s like expensive jewelry.
Whether that is for personal validation or to tell their circle about owning 75k speakers (most people in fact don’t care about that person owning these hyperspeakers).
Even if you overanalyze your sound, just get studio monitors.
I’ve only been to Audio Advice Live in 2022. It was the first year and I had a good time hearing what reviewers were hearing but price IS a factor to me. My personal evolution of home theater over the years has been giant. It started in 2001 with a $400 msrp AIWA stereo and turntable, then a 5.1 JVC HTIB for $300 in 2003 when I bought a Mitsubishi 55in projection television. I was the first to go HD in my circle and I loved it. Now it’s 4K 77in OLED with Klipsch speakers, a MAJOR upgrade for myself. I am happy with my current setup and honestly this is probably endgame for me. Sure, the higher priced stuff may be prettier and fancier but it’s just me enjoying my home theater. I’m fine watching a movie or playing a game with what I have.
Yeah.
Try setting up one of those systems in a New York City Studio Apartment.
You'll be chase out of the building by your Landlord and Tenants with torches.
All kidding aside.
The Audio/Video Realm has become more of a "Niche" Market in the last decade or so. Gear used to be so widely available and affordable. Being able to achieve even the best of Sound quality for under $2K. Many of these Audio/Video events hardly take the "budget" consumer/hobbyist into account anymore. Not like the Golden Days of the 70s/80s when I began purchasing equipment in My youth. Most, if not all the TH-cam Channels tend to be geared towards High-End now. As are these events.
Being in My early 60s now, I can't even see Myself buying gear above $3k. I find it nonsensical to Me personally. Not that I'm disparaging others who can within a higher income bracket.
Great Video.
You might of just heard accuracy, on top of which a person could add their own flavour (with eq) to tailor the sound to exactly how they want it.
I guess this should be the goal!
The other thing is take one of these setups, put it in the room of every one in the comments. Level match no eq it will sound different in each room.
Now do this with each different manufacturer, some variable or other may cause what you hear with each manufacturer to differ, now we have a case for a preference.
Now add looks, design, build quality, speaker type, in wall, on wall, ported sealed, what works best for the room, brand recognition etc etc etc
You then see there are multiple differences to these things that sound the same.
Great conversation starter Kpace. You deserve the engagement on this one!
I appreciate it!
im a budget spender. i will eventually upgrade my klipsch reference setup up to the reference premier 2s. I have listened to those and I can clearly here the difference between what i have. I have a 5.2.2 moving to a 5.2.4 with a max of 7.2.4. That will be the end of my journey. My current setup at reference level is loud and can run you out of my living room. I do want to here the difference in Kaleidescape to see if I can tell a difference with a normal budget home setup. But as much as I love music and home theater I cant justify spending 5k + on 1 or 2 speakers. It must a phenomenal difference in sound and clarity.
It was awesome meeting you at MWAVE! And youthman hit the nail on the head. Also have to consider all the rooms are pretty huge compared to our home theater spaces. So they need more large speakers to pressurize the space and impress us hardcore theater nerds. But yeah totally diminishing returns. I upgraded my projector from a Jvc rs400u to a full 4k Jvc rs2000 and no average non theater nerd friends that have come in my room knew I ever changed the projector.
Also the movie theater screen was the 4:3 size like TV's used to be 25 years ago. But the movie fix nicely on the screen no borders. Surprised to see a Dolby Digital movie theater in 2024. Just 3 speakers each side & 2 in the back total of 8 but could be wired for 4 speakers + Center and Sub for 5.1. Saw the Dolby Digital demo right before Horizon started. 9 Screens at Triangle Square Starlight Cinemas but only 1 is Dolby Atmos. Heard good bass coming from another screen near mine. Overall it was decent sound and picture for paying $5 Tuesday deal. Going to Dos Lagos in Corona next time it's a much newer theater.
I have some martin Logans that were about 4K for the pair, I think this is the highest I’m going, I’m happy with the sound, I was afraid to move from Klipsch because I love horn tweeters but I am pleased that my Martin logans sound great to what I like to hear, I do believe there does reach a point where you can’t tell when implemented properly, what they should do in these conventions is demo their lower end stuff against each other to the normal consumer, that’s where the real challenges are
Experience Clarisys or Alsyvox 😊
Separation is beyond Magnepan
@@CarlVanDoren61 uh that’s pretty obvious for the cost lol I’m not willing to spend that much, also I have never seen magnepan incorporated into home theater
My limit is 500 bucks per speaker, for the mains up from 100$. 6+ years ago I went with SVS Prime LCR and 4 satellites 2 PB-1000s for 7.2 Setup now it's 5.2.2. I'm very happy ☺
Main problem is people are not waiting to savd and buy a better one they are buying skme thing and at the end of the day they dont loke the sounx anx again hint begins😂.
I think $999 rule Each for: Receiver, Subwoofer and Towers. HSU 15 & SVS SB2000 are both in the $900 range too. Except for amps like Denon AVR-X3800H is $1,300. My friend spent $7,000 for his Towers but they are tall panels super narrow depth just for audiophile music.
@@parupudiphanindra3126 My friend had perfect awesome speakers and he keeps getting newer different brands every 5-10 years. I think not being happy it part of it.
Excellent video and food for thought! Definitely not a rant!
@@laptopdoc I appreciate it
A big thing you are hearing is proper setup and room tuning. You had some of the best in the business there setting everything up
For sure!
I agree there is a law of diminishing returns. I think they key where your equipment holds up is at volume. Out of the rooms, I felt JTR was really the only room that held detail and dynamics at high volumes with no distortion and without shrillness. I definitely wouldn't mind hearing some more budget systems at the event though
I think dirac is partially to blame as well. I wouldnt mind them running a two channel demo with no dirac so we can hear what the engineers developed as well
$900 Range was my budget system: $300+tax for Vizio M51 Atmos Soundbar (9 speakers) $285+Tax OSD Trevoce 12's subwoofer & $250+tax Onkyo THX Atmos Receiver ($100 off Prime Visa). But probably another $90-100 for all the Cables= RCA, LFE, 10 AWG plug for subwoofer. When I build a real theater room probably try to spend $5K Max plus the 98" LED TV.
Movie Theaters are still way different. I used to work at Irvine Spectrum Regal 21 but it was Edwards 21 when I worked there in 1998. They have remodeled a few times upgrading the sound and RPX screens are the best now. Imax is their premier screen and sound. AMC the theaters that opened up in the last 5-8 years are better but newer always better. If I had to guess total theaters in America I would say maybe 50% have true Dolby Atmos setup. AMC in Bonita by Chula Vista I could see all the Ceiling speakers.
Going tonight for $5 movie theater deal at Starlight Cinemas. 'A Quiet Place Day One' at 9 or 10 pm. There is Dos Lagos and Triangle Square in my area but the New Movie Theater opened last year in Rancho Cucamonga they probably have the best sound system.
I bought the ticket for 10 pm A Quiet Place, but after eating dinner at Yard House next door- BBQ Bacon burger & Allagash Curiex goblet, got to the Theater 10:25 pm so I exchanged the ticket for 'Horizon' the Kevin Costner western movie. Was a small older theater like 1997-2004 type but new seats. Speakes was 3 on each side and 2 in the back for 8 Total but No Ceiling at all. Right before the movie starts I saw the Dolby Digital sound demo and i said out loud, "Oh Wow this is Old". But the Picture quality was pretty good and the sound not bad for $5. This is also why i did not see 'A Quiet Place Day One' at there was only 1 screen in the whole theater with Dolby Atmos and the movie was 3 pm. Next Tuesday I will go to the location in South Corona that's a newer theater.
Spot ON !
Thanks for the post Kpace. They are there to sell you equipment. At the end of the day it comes down to dollars. They will throw everything in a room they have to do it. There is a reason behind the madness. Matching your equipment is more important than 16 subs in a room. I will leave it there.
I wish vendors would bring their lower tier stuff and try to make fantastic-sounding rooms with the LEAST amount of stuff possible. I EXPECT amazing sound for 200K. I can only be disappointed at that price point, honestly. Law of diminishing returns, for sure. I'm more inclined to buy if I hear something amazing and i'm like "wow, that's all you have in here?!" Don't get me wrong...still awesome to see the best the industry has to offer.
Read the experiences of people who went to the private room tours. A few had the same speakers but they did not sound the same.
I see your point but I could tell a difference in the rooms. The most unique sounding room for sure was the Martin Logan room for the same reason you said. The electrostatic sound is very different from a compression driver. A tuba will never sound like a trumpet. JTR, Ascendo and Grimani use compression drivers so they will have a similar sound but the materials used will bring out nuances in their drivers.
None of the rooms were treated except the Grimani room. That was the only room where they built a truss setup and hung diffusers and absorbers in it from what I remember. The 2ch Ascendo room with the Black Swans and the two 32” subs was the best sounding room to be. Beryllium tweeters have a completely different sound to other tweeter materials and when used with a horn, it really stands head and shoulders above the rest. The diminishing returns still applies though but if a person can afford it, hey God bless them.
Yeah I watched it and was like nice cinema room… like you can go to cinema and get the same . Those setups were missing one key ingredient- they didn’t feel like home theaters at all. Show me small room that people typically utilize with 7.1.4 setup, speakers that not massive that can’t fit in regular spaces and get it to perform and then we’re talking. Otherwise it’s not getting close to cinema sound in home setup- it’s basically creating cinema.
100% what you’re saying I agree
Honestly though, these high end rooms are WAY better than your average cinema now. I mean, way way better. I'm sure there are cinemas out there with mind blowing gear, but most of them spend way less. Someone recently said $20 grand on speakers in an average little cinema - I wouldn't trust that place to beat my system, and my system isn't anything remarkable, some entry B&Ws, a couple of solid BK Electronics subs etc.
I'll piggyback to @KimmoJaskari
Most public cinemas don't even sound better than even my home theater and my speakers and equipment total maybe $50k. The rooms at this event smoke any public movie theater. Picture quality, sound, calibration. You won't experience higher end audio than what some of these rooms brought. And I think it's because the mass majority of people going to a movie theater go because they don't have a theater in their own home and/or they want the vibes a public theater brings. Not necessarily because of how it sounds.
@@KpaceguyI think people were missing the point of what you were saying. At that LEVEL of audio they sound very similar. You weren’t saying all speakers sound the same. I was there at MWAVE and listened to Ascendo, Grimani, and RBH. They were hard to rank because they all sounded incredible but would absolutely destroy any local theater. I’ve never heard systems that good but the 3 of them were very similar in a lot of aspects.
@bbump1828 Absolutely!
@@Kpaceguy I guess it depends on cinema you have around. But I had in mind top end - dual imax laser 12 channels one that produces tactile bass in a massive space at ref volume - but that’s one of 12 in the world based in London. Otherwise I do prefer my home cinema over the average one indeed.
I think one reason people with more modest means get cranky about MadVR or even Kaleidescape is just the wild cost you start racking up after a while. MadVR costs what it costs - because they want to charge that much. The hardware and software isn't all that, out of $20 grand it's worth maybe $3-4 grand. Except of course they're targeting the affluent market. Either way, unless a nice lottery win comes my way, I'm highly unlikely to spend $75 or $100 grand on a home theater ever. My current system slots in comfortably under $10 grand. I'd be much more interested in systems where people have achieved greatness *at reasonable expenditures* by just doing something exceptional or finding exceptional value. How close can you get to optimal 20+ speaker setups at home for money a mere mortal can spend? But yes - there are absolutely diminishing returns. And I suspect with modern speaker design and materials, the range from affordable to expensive has narrowed, too, the lower end is better. It almost has to be unless the manufacturer is literally making the speakers worse than they have to be just for reasons of greed.
Its a bit like the cell phone market atm, updating your phone atm is hardly worth it as the improvements are so miniscule now.
But tbh my spakers alone cost around £1,700 when new...so feels like i have a budget set up when you are talking about the price of these speakers. They obviously are. 😂
Another point I would like to add is the "Future" is streaming services (Netflix,Prime...) and both the audio and video is compressed. So spending a hudge amount on audio video equipment makes absolutely no sense to me. Streaming Services such as Disney + and so on only use 5.1.2 Dolby Surround. Makes no sense. That's like spending $100,000 on an audio system and only listening to FM Radio.
Fair point
No one that’s serious about home theater only streams.
that's why home theater folks only buy physical media
Well said sir. I’m not sure an audio engineer could tell the difference. I would think most people on your channel have a more modest budget. Great video!
I appreciate it!
I think it's a solution in search of a problem.
In hifi and home cinema, there are generally accepted, measurable objective markers of good performance, and those will be more apparent, on average, in higher-end products and setups.
At the same time, MWAVE is very much an event for enthusiasts, and the companies there are generally considered leaders in the space, and with some wiggle-room for whether we should chase infrasonics in subwoofers, it's also a space where objective performance is prioritized. So if they bring their A-game, unless we're talking going beyond reference and bragging-rights, there are only so many "correct" solutions.
I would love for a value-oriented event where you had more "average-Joe systems", something like what SVS brought to CES IIRC, where they had two subs and a decent 5.1.2 setup, but when you're attending an event targeted at a crowd that dream of 140 dB at 10 Hz and 150" screens with 17 channels, you'll bring equipment that showcases this.
200% agree with you! --> "I would love for a value-oriented event where you had more "average-Joe systems", something like what SVS brought to CES IIRC, where they had two subs and a decent 5.1.2 setup"
Sure a "Lambo" is great, but those of us that have average or lower incomes would like to see something we "might" be able to afford.
Let's see what we can be done with a beer budget.
Thanks for your post.
It's cost effective to buy a lower end speaker or older top end speaker and upgrade the crossover with better parts and to correct acoustic issues and add no-rez to the enclosure
This is the journey ... Getting " the best for you " at the ' most economic price for performance " possible.
Everything is going to make things sound slightly different, ..but 100% important to know oneself .. and decide Enough is Enough.
Hopefully Youthman is reading your comments for positive feedback. I’m glad folks are being transparent. It’s nice being able to see and hear the big guns at MWAVE, most of your viewers are saying….its not realistic to the majority of home theater enthusiasts. Maybe a section of the expo showcasing mock living room setups. Some open floor living room, boxed living rooms and bedrooms, garage gyms, etc. I do miss the old days of Youthman but at the same time I’m proud of his accomplishments and growth. Kyle, thank you for having the courage to make this video and speak from the heart. 😎
Thanks for watching brother!
Yeah i think it's all about the looks more so then sound of the high end speakers.
Partly, engineering has significance 😮
As others have mentioned its Law of Diminishing Returns as well the fact that If company X can produce 10x the amount of a speaker they can sell it "cheaper"....while company Y can produce a speaker that is pretty much equal to company X's speaker but they are small company and can only produce a fraction of them....those will cost more. Both speakers are essentially equal in terms of performance. Economics of Scale. For me I can tell the difference between a $100 speaker and a $1000 speaker...maybe(doubtful) even a $10,000 speaker...beyond that its not about performance or sound...its about bragging rights and aesthetics. Then we have things like Kscape which is pretty much entirely about bragging rights since what the product "produces" does not match up to the price.
Also as of today 6/28/24 klipsch RP subs are on sale. as well as the rp mark2 towers and bookshelfs.
This is partly why Im DIY'ing all of my speakers and subs. I'm definitely getting a better cost/value ratio, and it's definitely more fun than simply throwing money at it
@@thr0nic I started with kits, and have graduated to purchasing plans from trusted designers and doing all of the woodworking and assembly myself. Along the way, I've been collecting tools, test equipment and reference materials, working towards my ultimate goal of designing and building something all my own
I don't see a problem with what was shown and brought to bear. I looked at what we saw was an order of magnitude above a Magnolia room at a box retailer. This also provided an opportunity to listen to speakers in different rooms that a local integrator may not have the ability or space to showcase a bunch of different. In my case I did hear a difference in sound which may be attributed to turning/calibration, room treatment, choice of product, etc. As far as budgets this conference is wide open so seeing a wide array of vendors at price points is good and I would have to assume Michael reaches out to the gamut of OEM's and who shows up are those that support the community. In the rooms I could definitely hear a difference in not only base but also tone and clarity in dialogue that it was noticeable. In my case I do have a speaker and treatment set from one of the vendors and it is significantly better than a decent system that I previously had. In my specific project the intent was saving for 12 months for a theater that I would not have to tinker with for the next decade other than possibly a projector upgrade. The key was planning, understanding intent of space, a ton of research on room isolation and treatment, and reaching out to people who are experts in those domains. But in my case I don't DIY on this part but do so on control systems.
I think to each their own and this was equivalent of a car show - who shows up to an 'all-call' request to come is who you get and enjoy the experience.
I find that difference in speakers is much more evident in 2 channel music vs movies.
HiFi/home theater (for those with the means) is about squeezing that last drop of perceived performance out of a system. 95% of the population is happy with a sound bar or even built in speakers. It’s the pursuit of perfection, damn the cost.
They should do some rooms that are laid out as a living room or even just the size of a normal spare room like 20x15 or something. And make it a rule that it has to pass WAF if it’s a shared space.
The reason they sound the same is because they’re accurate.
The secret is out. Show me a sound enthusiast and I'll show you a reason for my out of reach sound systems to exist.
I'll draw you in and send you away with the "affordable" system I intended to sell you all along.
Sound enthusiast here who just recently went from Andrew Jones Pioneer 9.2 after a decade to Prime Pinnacles, four Prime bookshelf 4 Prime heights and duel PB 2000 Pro's. I had the Primes and originally thought I would stay with duel Airmotiv SE12's which sounded great from the Primes alone, but adding the PB 2000 Pro's brought this system to END GAME for me.
Out of reach stuff does drive the tech, and that tech does trickle down on the peasant class for which I am very thankful :)
"Peasant Class" Yes, that's me and proud of it. We are the friendlier group of audiophiles. Rock'n a very budget used/fixed/scratch n dent 7.2.4, 70" 1080p here.
I would start by saying keyword Hobby. We all have different entry points and honestly some have no ending point. Events like this are more educational and exposure to offerings generally not seen or heard at a big box store and unfortunately audio salons are far and few these days. My approach is maybe I dont buy the full cart systems being displayed but maybe the Sub(s), Speakers, or Amp. Sometimes the premium tech does trickle down. Final thought is this event grows every year so maybe the next challenge is to set up a few smaller rooms and mix and match High,Mid, and Entry components.
Sure it is good experience to hear these high end systems but let’s face it 90% of HT’s are no where near the cost. These companies are really only appealing to a small subsection of HT enthusiasts.
I think the reason they all sound the same it's because they are in the same room environment which causes the same sound. Nice to see the high end but i think only Svs show cased a system that most more owns or will own they should have like that. I bet if they decided to make each room be 2 rooms instead of a single big room it can be will make the vendors set up a more realistic set up. Plus they can get more vendors to display but don't if people would still want to attend to experience an average every day set up.
Invest in 2 channel always add SPL 😊
Music is more rewarding than cinema
I've felt the same way watching all these MWave videos. I'd like to go but at some point it's not worth it as nothing there is attainable. It'd be nice to see different price range rooms for each brand. This could the be the same for audio and video there.
I do hope that more "average joe" rooms show up as mwave continues to grow BUT the tech talks and seminars are an excellent way to learn some high level knowledge and apply it to any home theater regardless of your price point!
@@Kpaceguy that's great to hear! Great content man.
@@audireddevil I appreciate it
I agree, all of these systems were quality, but I don’t agree that they all sounded the same. For example, the top 4 rooms(JTR, RBH, Grimani, and Ascendo) all had easily distinguishable attributes, strengths and weaknesses, etc.
People don’t want that reality lol when it comes to system , I’m happy with my Elysian 2 😊
Hi, Spot on.
Wanted to ask your experience with the 6-8x JTR subs vs the 18 x 16" Ascendo subs, how do the both differ ?
Keep up the good work :)
JTR was better, at least in these 2 examples. The JTR’s had far more infrasonic output, tactile feel, and overall impact. I do feel like the Ascendo room was capable of more, but they had it dialed back compared to JTR. Completely different approach.
I agree with @brucecarter6205
JTR could be heard from the other end of the venue. The subs and speakers are literally the same height, with the subs being wider. Vs 16 pretty compact, SEALED subs from Ascendo. You can obviously hear a difference from a bass standpoint just from volume level alone. I think it's quite easy to be impressed when things are loud. But I was very impressed with the 16 ascendo subs because they were incredibly smooth, and you could feel them even though they were all upfront. If space and money were no object, most people would take the JTR subs and know they would never need to upgrade ever again. So it is safe to say the JTR subs are simply better, but the Ascendo subs will appeal to far more people. JTR is digging much deeper, but the Ascendos are playing up to 1khz, which no other sub in the venue can do, which makes it very friendly with sound bars and small satellite and bookshelf speakers. You look at the JTR subs, and you expect crazy loud with clean bass. You look at the Acsendo sub, and you may not know what to expect, and then boom, you're pleasantly surprised with what you hear. I think they're both 2 very different subs.
@@Kpaceguythe 16 Sub Active has a frequency range of 20 - 150 hz, as per Ascendo’s website.
After 360 it’s just a circle…
Get the MEELOD DK300 max it will climb like a goat!! mine is on the way now. it's $1599.00
Careful buddy the Audiophile Army will come after you 😅
I'm ready! 💪
Most of the time I think you were smoking dope but I totally agree with you on this.
Jasmine is a smart girl 👧
2 or 6 channel options 😊
I’ve almost been tempted to sell my Klipsch RF7 system for Kef Meta but I was worried for - well yes I’d imagine the jump in performance be noticeable, but worth it noticeable? Idk, but the huge drop in efficiency too since I just run things on an AVR which means I’d have to also make a jump to separates… it just seemed like to much..
Uh yes its not comparable
They did not sound the same to me. I’m quite confident I could tell the difference between RBH and JTR (blind) per your example comparison.
While I tend to agree with the video as I had a similar experience last year. I think some of it comes from experience. I’m not a critical listener I haven’t been able to hear enough different setups to pick up on differences. You however have multiple rooms in your group that you have heard many get togethers. Not to mention your understanding of taking measurements and how things work in general gives you the upper hand over an average enthusiast. I mean no disrespect as I love your content I just think in this scenario experience definitely makes a difference.
100% agree.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The rooms I went into were by far the most expensive rooms I've ever heard. All of them. And the gear used was the first time I've ever been in the same room as that quality of gear. Which I think is the same for 89% of the people who attended. If I spent more time hearing this level of audio, I'd learn more about what I'm hearing. I mean I went to school for this stuff lol but to walk in, get a 10 minute demo, walk out, go to another 10 minute demo, the differences are not easy to hear at least not for movies. Music, I'd definitely have a much easier chance.
The only thing i will say about your video is i hope you can tell the difference between say an AMT tweeter and a compression driver from jtr if not that means there both doing a really good job in terms of making a neutral, sounding speaker
If they played music then yes. But it was all movies
For me. This is just for me. It seems like. These companies are probably using the same tech. For example. The same receivers. Power amps. Processors and yes. Room correction software. I’d like to think that a different brand of sound processing. Would make the speakers sound different. Maybe it’s just me.
This game reminds me of the Scotch whiskey crowd and their who's the greatest game of bones for your money.....home audio has dissatisfaction as its greatest marketing tool..if your faith is in money, if it costs more, it has to be better....until its not.
As much as I'd really go to MWAVE next year it would like me spending a weekend at the Playboy Mansion - look but don't touch - you can't afford any of it.
Yes, BUT you learn a whole lot of things to take home and apply to your own home theater, and I think that's where the value is!
@@Kpaceguy Yes Sir. That's all a worthless broke POS like me can afford is the info. And, a few big smile handshakes with the "big guys". If they need someone to clean up the mess after the show I'm the guy. That's my value on this planet.
Everyone has their own value equation. At some point you are paying for looks vs sound - just don’t hide those speakers behind an AT screen!!!
Some of these speakers you can't lol
The reason that ALL "no holds barred" sound systems all sound the same, is because there is a THX "standard" and EVERYONE tunes thier systems to strictly adhere to this standard. 100% of the rooms are "treated" and the speakers "equalized" to this end. However, unless you have the money to fully replicate this at your home. The speakers "personalities" will reveal themselves in "your" setup.
100 bucks on a soundbar, better than the tv
1000 bucks on a decent receiver and some speakers, sounds better
10k on a hi fidelity setup, definately better.
My advice if you need more after that, build it yourself. End of story
I think you are right there are ranges of speakers that are all close. If you compare a Wilson to a mid range KEF you'll hear a big difference. If you are in the same dollar amount the only difference will come with different concepts. So a KEF blade will sound entirely different than a B&W or the Wilson. However if you put me in a room blindfolded I probably couldn't tell the difference from a KEF blade to a Magnapan (with good woofers). I think theater for better or worse are all mid range speakers.
"Theater for better or worse are all mid range speakers." Possibly the opposite depending on your point of view. A lot of high end speakers (RE: Expensive) can't even properly reproduce reference levels. Those poor silk dome tweaters don't stand a chance. If all you listen to is soft jazz at 80db that's fine, but the world of audio is so much bigger than that for many people. Large dynamic transients is where a lot of the fun is in music for me.
@@ryankramer idk what you are considering mid range or high end. I've never heard of a high end speaker not able to hit reference levels. Do you have any reference to that? I have a diy scanspeak bookshelf that I've pushed well into the 100db range no problem. Of course those soft dome tweeters are around $300 each. I can't see high end not hitting reference levels. On the other end I've heard some pretty junky klipsch theaters locally.
@@theoracleprodigy It's the last few db that's tricky. 105db peaks at listener's seat is reference. That kills a lot of speaker choices right there. The poor Perlisten room at last year's MWAVE cooked a couple of their speakers trying to pull off the feat. It's trickier still if you need some leeway in the high freq to EQ issues you may have which requires even more SPL leeway. (And I have no love for a lot of Klipsch, they're kinda screachy for me at higher levels.) A pair of something like 805 D4's from B&W would be something that would stand no chance in this scenario. Not even the KEF Blade One Meta can hit 105 in my room. (88 db sensitivity * 400 watts - 5 meter sitting distance = 103db) The point is there is some mid-tier gear out there that does a lot of things better than some higher priced gear depending on your sound quality priorities. (Low distortion, wide horizontal/vertical patterns, etc.) Hope that all makes sense! 🙂
@@ryankramer I've never tried to push speakers to reference levels so I'll take your word for it I guess. My theater room has a pair of Focal 1038be. Those have a peak power rating of 400 watts and 93 db sensitivity. They would hit volumes I wouldn't want to hear for sure. I've turned them up a bit but never really pushed them. I'm sure the beryllium tweeter would hold together just fine.
@@theoracleprodigy Those are great speakers. Good pick!
Too much money.
Wanna hear a REAL secret?
Don't muck about... Just get active Studio monitors and play like a professional.
You'll be SHOCKED at the difference, and usually for le$$.
Eg: KRK 10-3, Kali IN-8, PreSonus Eris Pro Coaxial, MTM iLoud, Tannoy Gold...
,
heh diminishing returns
Doesn't this actually points to success of standardization like dolby, room correction, etc. in making the experience good and, for the most part, reproducible (given sufficient $ investment)? i.e. a good achievement..
Yes, not my cup of tea 😮
Definitely the law of diminishing returns but I think you're also running up against the fact that once you introduce more than two speakers into a system it gets harder which each additional speaker to differentiate the difference in sound and quality. It's why you get away with not install KEF blades in your ceiling.
$5000 a pair?! Really!! I’m sticking with POLK! 😂🤣🙃🥳
Polk has some good speakers about that much as well! Lol
@@Kpaceguy Home theatre is really about inviting friends and family into a room that will be a unique experience for them. In my 7000 hours of use in my home theatre, I am not sure my family or my guests really care about the equipment details or the cost.
It would seem to me what impresses most is: (1) the size of the screen (2) Image quality (3) “clarity” of dialogue. After that, as youthman said: It’s the law of diminishing returns. In my very humble opinion, spending anything more than at the “budget level” is to make YOU HAPPY, at which point the - home theatre sky is the limit - as exemplified by MWAVE - but do your GUESTS (family members included) really care? In my experience, I don’t think so - yet it is for them that you are creating the room in the first place - so why go overboard? A budget dollar amount in overall good basic equipment is nothing to sneeze at (in dollar amounts) in my experience. In my humble opinion, there is a threshold where “enough is enough”. In my case, “budget equipment” is sufficient to get the job done to the point where “everyone” will be HAPPY! It is good the MWAVE brings folks together to “witness and experience what is possible” but then maybe even MWAVE has gone “overboard too?” Maybe the organizers need to consider “different phases” of home theatre and illustrate what is possible at each phase and illustrate those to make the show even - more relevant - next year?
16 subs? Lol meanwhile I'm buying very affordable vintage bookshelf speakers and enjoying 2 channel sound.
Would you say most of the rooms sounded similar because of the Trinov sound?
@@taseti4803 yes
Was that JTR, or was that RTJ?
JTR
Funny, i hav Never been to this show yet. I wanna go but what i hav been thinking u already said - lol... They want Ppl to travel across the country to see a bunch of rooms playing the same demo's.. Being a Retired IMAX projectionist. These shows are Only geared towards the Rich. Which is sad because they are Not producing theater sound. These rooms are missing so much equipment that these shows don't hav. So, they are Not teaching Ppl about True theatre sound at all. Jus playing a movie Loud don't make it better and don't qualify as True movie sound. Their speaker calibration is base on 7-9 EQ band🙄That's a joke. Each speaker in my basement system has a 31 band EQ which is how u do it EQ'ing ur system. Plus, their speakers are basically Highend Audio speakers Not Theater speakers. With the exception of JTR and that's a Big If.. I hav 2 18" Bass Bin Scoops which is the same in the theaters. Spending 5k, 10k, 15k even 20k don't make a system sound great. It's how u tune it. And the best way to do is Manually. Not some built-in calibration that's not all that good to Me.. That's why i tune All my speakers myself. Maybe IMAX spoiled me but i've heard some systems that cost over $50k - $100k. And they jus try to impress u by playing at levels that no normal person would watch a movie like that anyway... Most likely going to this show might be good jus to meet other Ppl in the same hobby but knowing me. I probably won't be impressed at all. 🙂🙂
You should probably hear some of these systems before you judge. I’ve been to plenty of IMAX theaters and none of them can touch the top 3 or 4 rooms at MWAVE this year.
@brucecarter6205 One thing u must know about certain IMAX theaters. They r not run by IMAX Projectionist. They ticket takers, food preps etc. And in the control booth changing all the settings. So, Ppl r Not hearing or watching true IMAX and it's a shame. Every since I retired IMAX experience has been goin Down.
Who has that kind of money I'm spending $500 Max on a pair of speakers
you need a Ebike for you and the wife!!!
I've always wanted one! I'll ride it everyday if I had one
a lot of audio is way overpriced nowadays it's ruining the hobby
Hey KSpaceMan,
Why was my post removed when nothing offensive was posted, just my personal opinion agreeing with you & just asking for the little guy in the room to have the ability to walk into a show that is affordable to a reasonable price point? I’m not bashing these shows, just that these shows I feel are all for wealthy. You yourself said or felt like everyone brought their best? Not hearing a difference in higher priced speakers?! These TH-cam shows on these channels since Covid have changed in the past few years, based on bigger & better. I get it, but the way the economy has been, let’s be realistic….upper class yuppies are buying these products, not your average Joe! I’m sure some of your watchers are going to bash me for what I’m saying, that’s fine! Just remember where you came from.
TH-cam automatically flags things that are offensive, so I have to go back and review it and approve it. I didn't see your comment yet, so I'll go approve it. But TH-cam removes comments on its own, and it doesn't always get it right.
I just checked and I actually don't see your comment at all
That’s fine KMan, but I did post in reference to your experience at the show. I received a response from an individual by email stating that this wasn’t a forum for the average Joe theater enthusiast. I guess that to be true, since not everyone can afford the equipment that not only you but others channels as well touting how great their high end product is, but as you say…I can’t tell a difference! I try to help out people I know and come across to put together a system that not only works for them, but is affordable. I just feel that most of these TH-cam shows have lost the way of the theater experience for the average Joe! I myself have a lot of hard earned money invested in my own home theater, but for most aren’t like you & I? Look at some of these systems that some of your colleagues have on TH-cam they tout and travel to other homes that are equally awesome in their own way, that’s not middle America? Thanks for listening, I guess I’m remembering the days of my old roll dial Sherwood stereo & giant 2 fisher speakers. Ask yourself, how many of your viewers can afford a system over $2000 or what percentage for that matters? Have great day a great day bud!
Oh yeah, the dude that replied to my 2 cents, post isn’t there either!
This convention seems pointless how many people really have the money to spend on this come on
All of these " high end" systems seem impressive, but they are so far removed from reality. they have no relevance to me.
bu bu bu bu bu but..... all speakers in a multi channel system all have to be the same
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