He should have used Ethiopian Christians as an example. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is ancient. Their nation made Christianity the official religion before Rome did.
@@Geronimo_Jehoshaphat No clue what your are talking about, child. The Hebrew word for slave included full chattel slavery. Chattel slaves were property, not employees.
@@cygnusustus Reading comprehension eludes you again, huh? Everyone is beholden to a master. Some just don't know it. For instance, I'm your master. Obviously.
@@Geronimo_Jehoshaphat I'm fine with reading comprehension child. I scored in the top 2% of the nation on my graduate entrance exams. Neither "illusion", nor "choice" are applicable to either your post or my response. Get some help before you take your SATs.
In the same chapter 25, we can see how God treats slaves. Moreover, the attitude towards slaves is better described in the previous 24th chapter. He says that the same Laws should be applied to foreigners (Leviticus 24:17-22). He often reminds - you were a slave in the land of Egypt! Do not forget this. And treat your slaves as equals. God does not work on the consequence, but on the cause. And the cause of sin is the human heart (Matthew 15:19). What is the point of forbidding, if a person still breaks the law when no one sees him? We must change the heart and thoughts of a person (Ezekiel 36:26-27, John 3:5, Galatians 6:8). A person must see another person as equal to himself, then he will stop harming another. In the Old Testament, God is engaged in education. But don't forget that there will be a day of judgment... Humanity's biggest problem is sin, and as a result, death (Romans 6:23). God solves the problem of sin through Jesus Christ and gives us eternal life. That is the essence of the Good News. PS: The background music is too loud. As a non-English speaker, it is distracting.
So if slaves in the Bible were "just indentured servants" or "employees"...why did Moses need to free the Hebrews? Or was THAT slavery? But the same word is used.
@@mashah1085 God made a promise to the Abraham that the Israelites would become their own nation. They would have departed from the Egyptians either way, but it would've gone a lot better for the Egyptians if they didn't try to hinder the process. That argument goes beyond slavery for this very reason.
@@donaldk.6586 Jesus could say 'slavery is wrong' in front of my very eyes... That won't change the fallacious nature of the argument 'black church exists therefore the bible doesn't support slavery'.
@@donaldk.6586 Jesus Christ could tell me to my face that slavery is wrong, it wouldn't change the fact that the argument 'the black church exists, therefore the bible doesn't promote slavery' is fallacious.
Revalation 1:14-15 14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
I honestly don't understand why Cliff (and Stewart) are so popular on this subject all of a sudden. They're both absolutely terrible on this? They might be amazing on other subjects, but I happen to have studied this extensively and Cliff is just laughably wrong here. Lev. 25:44-46 is "God telling the Israelites how to treat their slaves"? No, it actually says not one single thing about how you treat your slaves. Not one single thing. What it does do is legalize lifelong chattel slavery, and tell the Israelites who their slaves can and cannot be. Much like American laws in that respect. And Stuart asking why the Black Churches exist if the Bible condoned slavery? What? One has nothing to do with the other. Black churches existing is not some sort of proof that the Bible does not condone slavery. Sorry Stuart. But to honestly answer your question? Most of the Black Christians have no idea that the Bible condones slavery. Not exactly something preached from the pulpit on Sunday mornings you know. And you can tons of videos right here on YT by Black people who left Christianity after learning that it does. And his absolute worst statement in this video? Exodus 21:16 is a condemnation of slavery. A verse that not once even uses the word slavery, condemns slavery. This is where Cliff shows his ignorance on this subject. Kidnapping is not the same as slavery Cliff. Every slave is not kidnapped. 5 minutes of research will tell you that. Kidnapping doesn't even crack the top three ways people became slaves back then. That was debt, war, or simply being born into it. No kidnapping required. A question for Cliff. What about children born into slavery in Israel? Because that's Biblical too. How is a law against kidnapping somehow morph into a condemnation of slavery? It does not. And if Cliff were being honest he'd know that here.
I'm not trying to argue here but I just want to let you know that Satan is a very good liar. He's super intelligent and can manipulate the Bible to make it seem like one thing. Trust me I know from experience. I used to argue all the time that weed was justified and that it's okay because God made it in that it was a plan used for medicine and I had a med card. Truth is God doesn't want me to smoke weed and I felt it in my heart saying that when I had my encounter.
Also, one thing to add is that no matter how much evidence someone gives you, I can guarantee that you're always going to look around and find excuses. And I'm saying this from experience.
Also if you really want answers and if you really want to know why don't you just have faith and go to God and ask him and he'll show you. But if you're not willing to do that, I don't know what to tell you.
'you may buy slaves' When I read that passage it sounds alot like affirming slavery... Sorry... My God given conscience tells me that I cannot, in an effort to make my pastor happy, pretend that that verse doesn't affirm slavery. But even if that verse didn't affirm slavery, but was a guide for people during slave times, whose to say that other passages were for the people of those times but do not apply to our lives? There is just too many examples of these morally problematic apparent affirmations in the bible that I cannot, in good conscience, use the bible to guide morality...
Feel you. If specifics can be given about the type of clothing to wear and food to eat, why is it so hard to simply say, “Do not have slaves” at any point? The beating them part is especially strange to me. Curious if you find it acceptable to use any of the Bible to guide your morality these days? I struggle with this but didn’t in the past when I thought it was the clear authority.
@@counterpoiseag6068 I think it is appropriate to use wisdom and argument contained in the bible (to the extent that that exists) but it is inappropriate to just quote a passage, without backing up the point, to guide your morality.
I think it's the peole's view that has changed too much for some to understand. Is a butler not a slave to his master? A dog a slave to his owner? A child a slave to its parents? A husband a slave to his wife? And within all those relationships is a deep bond of love and you know you should never mistreat them. It was the same back then?
@@lightborn9071 Respectfully, it appears we have very different definitions of slavery. Butlers are hired help and can leave freely anytime. Spouses can divorce and are not property. Dogs are not even human - and yet I wouldn’t beat a dog within the guidelines allowed by the Bible for punishing a slave. It appears to me that humans largely moved on from slavery in spite of the Bible and not because of it. This causes me to question where morality really comes from. I leave room for interpreting Jesus’ message of “love one another as I have loved you” as a potential anti-slavery argument, but the fact that the OT / NT never condemns slavery outright forever troubles me.
@@counterpoiseag6068 As I say, the people's view has changed too much for some to understand. But YOU are on the verge of a dangerous path when it needs so little to intimidate and demoralize you.
If people could rip passages out of context to promote slavery, why would I believe the modern church that they are not ripping passages out of context to affirm whatever thing suits them at this time? Seems the moral thing to do is to put the bible aside and to consider, with humility and reason, what our morals should be, and not just pretend we are using the bible to guide our morals.
Fine but why should we care about morals? What is the basis in which we form morality and where does morality ultimately originate from? If you can’t answer these without it being “It’s human evolution”, “Socieital consensus” or “the prefrontal cortex decides where morality is. The. You have just affirmed without god morality is relative and therefore meaningless what you think is moral isn’t what I think is moral and Theodore none of us are wrong
@@makeytgreatagain6256 I am not sure where morality comes from, but the morality that Christians practice does not come from the bible, I just think they should stop pretending it does.
@@makeytgreatagain6256 Not trying to fight - trying to make up my own mind. Is morality really meaningless if it is relative? To me morality is similar to the laws we make (and modify or eliminate) to benefit the whole. I suppose you would call that “societal consensus”, but to me perhaps that’s the best we can do? And is morality relative for God? For example, He says don’t kill - but also instructs people to kill on his behalf. This stuff is seriously confusing and exhausting. If the punishment for believing wrong is eternal torment in hell, you’d think there’d be a clearer rule book 🤷♂️
![[Live สด] การออกรางวัลสลากกินแบ่งรัฐบาล งวดวันที่ 16 พฤศจิกายน 2567](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wPd7VFfWHIA/mqdefault.jpg)
He should have used Ethiopian Christians as an example. The Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church is ancient. Their nation made Christianity the official religion before Rome did.
The term "slave" was just semantically amended as "employee" for convenience of utility.
Nope. The Hebrew word for slave included full chattel slavery. Chattel slaves were property, not employees.
@@cygnusustus
The illusion of choice is too cute.
@@Geronimo_Jehoshaphat
No clue what your are talking about, child.
The Hebrew word for slave included full chattel slavery. Chattel slaves were property, not employees.
@@cygnusustus
Reading comprehension eludes you again, huh?
Everyone is beholden to a master. Some just don't know it.
For instance, I'm your master. Obviously.
@@Geronimo_Jehoshaphat
I'm fine with reading comprehension child. I scored in the top 2% of the nation on my graduate entrance exams.
Neither "illusion", nor "choice" are applicable to either your post or my response.
Get some help before you take your SATs.
In the same chapter 25, we can see how God treats slaves. Moreover, the attitude towards slaves is better described in the previous 24th chapter. He says that the same Laws should be applied to foreigners (Leviticus 24:17-22). He often reminds - you were a slave in the land of Egypt! Do not forget this. And treat your slaves as equals.
God does not work on the consequence, but on the cause. And the cause of sin is the human heart (Matthew 15:19). What is the point of forbidding, if a person still breaks the law when no one sees him? We must change the heart and thoughts of a person (Ezekiel 36:26-27, John 3:5, Galatians 6:8). A person must see another person as equal to himself, then he will stop harming another. In the Old Testament, God is engaged in education. But don't forget that there will be a day of judgment...
Humanity's biggest problem is sin, and as a result, death (Romans 6:23). God solves the problem of sin through Jesus Christ and gives us eternal life. That is the essence of the Good News.
PS: The background music is too loud. As a non-English speaker, it is distracting.
So if slaves in the Bible were "just indentured servants" or "employees"...why did Moses need to free the Hebrews? Or was THAT slavery? But the same word is used.
That was pretty much what "modern slavery" means.
Bosses mistreat their workers to this day. Read how the Jews were treated in Egypt vs how Servants were treated in Israel
@@compromize So if the Egyptians had treated the Hebrews nicer, no need for Moses?
@@mashah1085 God made a promise to the Abraham that the Israelites would become their own nation. They would have departed from the Egyptians either way, but it would've gone a lot better for the Egyptians if they didn't try to hinder the process. That argument goes beyond slavery for this very reason.
To say ' the black church exists so therefore the bible doesn't promote slavery' is an argument from consensus and is a fallacy.
Read what Jesus Christ said about slavery. Then see if you still feel the same way.
@@donaldk.6586 Jesus never said anything about slavery itself actually?
@@donaldk.6586 Jesus could say 'slavery is wrong' in front of my very eyes... That won't change the fallacious nature of the argument 'black church exists therefore the bible doesn't support slavery'.
@@donaldk.6586 Jesus Christ could tell me to my face that slavery is wrong, it wouldn't change the fact that the argument 'the black church exists, therefore the bible doesn't promote slavery' is fallacious.
@@raymondblake5765 You aim to win by technicallity here.
Jesus was brown not white
Where in the Bible is mentioned skun colour of Jesus or God?
Revalation 1:14-15 14] His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; [15] And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
He most probably tanned, olive skinned like most of jews at that time. Judas wouldn't have to kiss to identify him if he was different.
Were you there?
@@edmarcamy it says in the bible what he looks like
I honestly don't understand why Cliff (and Stewart) are so popular on this subject all of a sudden. They're both absolutely terrible on this? They might be amazing on other subjects, but I happen to have studied this extensively and Cliff is just laughably wrong here. Lev. 25:44-46 is "God telling the Israelites how to treat their slaves"? No, it actually says not one single thing about how you treat your slaves. Not one single thing. What it does do is legalize lifelong chattel slavery, and tell the Israelites who their slaves can and cannot be. Much like American laws in that respect.
And Stuart asking why the Black Churches exist if the Bible condoned slavery? What? One has nothing to do with the other. Black churches existing is not some sort of proof that the Bible does not condone slavery. Sorry Stuart. But to honestly answer your question? Most of the Black Christians have no idea that the Bible condones slavery. Not exactly something preached from the pulpit on Sunday mornings you know. And you can tons of videos right here on YT by Black people who left Christianity after learning that it does.
And his absolute worst statement in this video? Exodus 21:16 is a condemnation of slavery. A verse that not once even uses the word slavery, condemns slavery. This is where Cliff shows his ignorance on this subject. Kidnapping is not the same as slavery Cliff. Every slave is not kidnapped. 5 minutes of research will tell you that. Kidnapping doesn't even crack the top three ways people became slaves back then. That was debt, war, or simply being born into it. No kidnapping required. A question for Cliff. What about children born into slavery in Israel? Because that's Biblical too. How is a law against kidnapping somehow morph into a condemnation of slavery? It does not. And if Cliff were being honest he'd know that here.
I'm not trying to argue here but I just want to let you know that Satan is a very good liar. He's super intelligent and can manipulate the Bible to make it seem like one thing. Trust me I know from experience. I used to argue all the time that weed was justified and that it's okay because God made it in that it was a plan used for medicine and I had a med card. Truth is God doesn't want me to smoke weed and I felt it in my heart saying that when I had my encounter.
Also, one thing to add is that no matter how much evidence someone gives you, I can guarantee that you're always going to look around and find excuses. And I'm saying this from experience.
Also if you really want answers and if you really want to know why don't you just have faith and go to God and ask him and he'll show you. But if you're not willing to do that, I don't know what to tell you.
th-cam.com/video/WczLQWZxCM4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=EDj0jSO9VU9JPYzk
'you may buy slaves'
When I read that passage it sounds alot like affirming slavery... Sorry... My God given conscience tells me that I cannot, in an effort to make my pastor happy, pretend that that verse doesn't affirm slavery.
But even if that verse didn't affirm slavery, but was a guide for people during slave times, whose to say that other passages were for the people of those times but do not apply to our lives?
There is just too many examples of these morally problematic apparent affirmations in the bible that I cannot, in good conscience, use the bible to guide morality...
Feel you. If specifics can be given about the type of clothing to wear and food to eat, why is it so hard to simply say, “Do not have slaves” at any point? The beating them part is especially strange to me.
Curious if you find it acceptable to use any of the Bible to guide your morality these days? I struggle with this but didn’t in the past when I thought it was the clear authority.
@@counterpoiseag6068 I think it is appropriate to use wisdom and argument contained in the bible (to the extent that that exists) but it is inappropriate to just quote a passage, without backing up the point, to guide your morality.
I think it's the peole's view that has changed too much for some to understand. Is a butler not a slave to his master? A dog a slave to his owner? A child a slave to its parents? A husband a slave to his wife? And within all those relationships is a deep bond of love and you know you should never mistreat them. It was the same back then?
@@lightborn9071 Respectfully, it appears we have very different definitions of slavery. Butlers are hired help and can leave freely anytime. Spouses can divorce and are not property. Dogs are not even human - and yet I wouldn’t beat a dog within the guidelines allowed by the Bible for punishing a slave.
It appears to me that humans largely moved on from slavery in spite of the Bible and not because of it. This causes me to question where morality really comes from. I leave room for interpreting Jesus’ message of “love one another as I have loved you” as a potential anti-slavery argument, but the fact that the OT / NT never condemns slavery outright forever troubles me.
@@counterpoiseag6068 As I say, the people's view has changed too much for some to understand. But YOU are on the verge of a dangerous path when it needs so little to intimidate and demoralize you.
If people could rip passages out of context to promote slavery, why would I believe the modern church that they are not ripping passages out of context to affirm whatever thing suits them at this time?
Seems the moral thing to do is to put the bible aside and to consider, with humility and reason, what our morals should be, and not just pretend we are using the bible to guide our morals.
Fine but why should we care about morals? What is the basis in which we form morality and where does morality ultimately originate from?
If you can’t answer these without it being “It’s human evolution”, “Socieital consensus” or “the prefrontal cortex decides where morality is. The. You have just affirmed without god morality is relative and therefore meaningless what you think is moral isn’t what I think is moral and Theodore none of us are wrong
@@makeytgreatagain6256 I am not sure where morality comes from, but the morality that Christians practice does not come from the bible, I just think they should stop pretending it does.
@@raymondblake5765 How about you go through the bible yourself, the old AND the new testament, and see if there's actually nothing to consider?
@@makeytgreatagain6256 Not trying to fight - trying to make up my own mind. Is morality really meaningless if it is relative? To me morality is similar to the laws we make (and modify or eliminate) to benefit the whole. I suppose you would call that “societal consensus”, but to me perhaps that’s the best we can do? And is morality relative for God? For example, He says don’t kill - but also instructs people to kill on his behalf.
This stuff is seriously confusing and exhausting. If the punishment for believing wrong is eternal torment in hell, you’d think there’d be a clearer rule book 🤷♂️