Something interesting the Devs could add to make things more interesting and a very easy way to make the map better. Add random patrol's of either Europa or scavs that can draw the grabbers attention, potentially giving the player brief moments where they can freely escape or shot to clear enemies without drawing the grabber. Basically give it distractions occasionally that gets easily wiped out by the grabber or uruskans
Yeah additional ways the grabber can be distracted would be great. It kind of does this with the cultists but not very consisnently considering they only spawn on the night version of the map. Other ways of distracting it via sound would be nice too.
It three different states of behaviour could very easily be telegraphed to the players with different colors and modes of its glowing "eyes", without the need for additional animations or blend animations. On default the eye could be yellow, when it is in search mode the yellow eyes could be blinking or flickering, and when it is in aggro mode the eyes turn red. all this in addition to audio cues for all three states.
The Grabber on the map is TOO smart. The pipes spawn is an utter nightmare because the grabber is behind the door directly to your front and the door to your right side is mostly always closed. Opening doors gets the grabbers attention and if you open the side door and theres infantry there then you end up getting sandwiched. Hell if you even make it past the grabber then try to close doors to lock it into a section of the map the game will simply respawn it in the central tunnel (happened right in front of me a few days ago, closed the last blast door and im tracking it with the cam feed then it vanishes and reappears 30 feet away from me in the same exact tunnel that im in)
i remember in one of the Q&As fun dog did about the game is they mentioned of adding throwables later on like smoke grenades. they might add something like emp grenades to stun the grabber but its not yet confirmed other than the smoke grenades. EDIT: its IEDs that stun and de aggro the grabbers! i saw a quest for the scavs to get a log book from cemetery and in the description it warns you about grabbers. in return you get 8 IEDs as a reward. this can't be a coincidence so i tested it just now and the grabber ran away and de aggroed.
Maybe the Dev's intended to play this game in coop, it would make for cool stories when this thing grab one of a four player squad while the other three escape.
@@killpo_1 True, they should really add some vents and small passages or lookable rooms like they have near sewer extract on elephant mausoleum to this map.
Honestly, on the topic of balance, I feel TFW is kinda at a crossroads rn. On the one hand, it seems to have a very strong anti-war message, which is (at least in theory) primarily delivered via the whole "you're not that guy" premise. Feeling helpless and deliberately creating unfair gameplay mechanics very much feeds into that, and is something that I'd like to see the devs explore more, especially since high-tier equipment and highly prestiged scavs at least partially neuter this component of the game. On the other hand, though, it is ultimately a game, and people will only play it (and thus absorb the messaging) if it's fun, engaging, and fair enough to be a worthwhile investment of your time and energy as a player. Ultimately, I think that it'd be somewhat interesting if the Cemetery remained extremely dangerous and even somewhat unfair. They'd just need to add a _bit_ more counterplay to the Grabber and create lucrative quests and/or valuable loot that can be found there, both to explain why the Euruskans would station a Grabber there, and why a scav would ever risk visiting it in spite of that. In the long run, adding scaling recurring costs or requiring specific rare components would force the player to engage with the more dangerous maps and enemies in order to keep up and preserve the premise even as you grow stronger imho.
I think the devs have said before that they want to add quests where you're delivering supplies to soldiers and other NPC-involved quests beyond just rescuing civilians, so this map would probably be perfect for those less combat-focused quests.
I think a stagger window during the one-shot kill animation should be implemented to allow coop teammates to assist, specifically when the Grabber’s face plate opens revealing a human-like head inside; which could be a weak point. Coop would be more dynamic if it manages to pick off teammates individually, which is probably what it was envisioned to do.
Im guessing the dev were so caught up In their own marketing “we’re not like other developers” they kind of miss that games like Outlast and Alien Isolation and Lethal Company have the same issue but actually solved the problems. Unlike Forever Winter in those games we actually have means of surviving and avoiding problems that doesn’t just come down to “cross your fingers and hope pathing and spawns don’t give you the middle finger”
@@killpo_1 I thinking something closer to Isolation for the hunter killers where they have two AI., the first one know where you are and directs the second AI to look for you their. BUT if it doesn't find you or other criteria are met it will leave to go somewhere else (their supposed to have their own agenda after all), rather then have the mob just camp.
I wonder if just adding an auditory cue if the grabber is within a certain distance of you, which intensifies as you/it gets closer, would solve most of these issues. It'd also inadvertently help with the grabber respawn issue too, if it suddenly spawns you near you.
Part of a fix might be to give it an aggro health pool that when depleted forces it to flee to preset regeneration points to recover. Cause too much Nosie and draw its attention you can hit it hard and fast to make it withdraw for a short time. But each time that health pool gets bigger. It could still one shot you, though i am not a huge fan of that, but this would give players a way to push back and manage it without just letting us kill it outright. Appreciate your detailed dive on these steps and the positive and constructive work.
The grabber looks like a unit that should disengage when it's shot too much. This could lead to it trying to stalk you if you drive it off, needing you to somehow get it to be distracted or trying to recklessly rush through areas it might have trouble navigating to try and lose it.
Imo there should be a way to cripple the grabber. Like setting up IEDs and luring it into them would result in it losing a limb, making it incapable of using it´s grabbing attack (but that´s when it would never lose agro, not being the defaul), or hitting it´s joints with the anti tank to achieve the same effect (would give the weapon utility.). Or if we go with the route to make it killable then it should be a specific thing. Like for example: If it opens it´s face shield (either in combat or in an idle animation when passive) you could shoot the head inside which would kill the grabber. Meaning you´d have to either risk and engage it in a direct fight or stalk it until you find a good opening to take clear shot. But in turn that would cause euruskan forces to be on high alert and aggro a lot faster. In short, dealing with the grabber should be something you have to plan and prepare for. Sidenote: something that could also help in general is throwable grenades to use both as a source of damage and as a lure.
The one-shot is absolutely broken AND it kills you via cutscene rather than a dodgeable animation. And its AI is completely broken as well, never losing aggro and seemingly knowing exactly where you are. The map is a series of corridors without any real options to avoid contact. I'm not playing this map at all in this state.
If they made this speciffic grabber a special variant, like a grave guard that will enter the map, patrol and leave. Only to then come back at any point and anywhere would be cool IMO. “Do I engage these guys to get to the quest objective now? If the guard comes back in the middle of a firefight i’ll be in trouble…”
I have lost argo with the grabber before in the cemetery but it was a straight up pain to do and required a bit of luck the first time I have no idea how I did I think it might have gotten distracted by cultist but im not sure but the second time it was near the main entrance with those two big doors on the bottom right where you can sometimes see civilians being held hostage I basically lock myself in there and after some time he just gave up and went on his usual walk path the down side to this is that the doors are random if they want to work or not so its never guaranteed to work because of that also wish that stagger for the grabber work a lot more there times Ive shoot them in the face and they run away after they stagger and there times where it staggers for like a second and continue running at you I did noticed I had more luck with shotguns especially the AA-12 with a drum mag working more of the time on making him run away tho
Correct, this is a unique variant on the cemetary map. Traditional grabbers on other maps are not like the one mentioned in the video, though the HK variant of the grabber, the Stalker might be.
All units should be distractable. If the Bad Boi comes into a fight with other NPCs, for example, each such distraction ought to come with a chance that it loses "the scent".
Did the quest where the europan mech spawns in the map. Mech agroed the dog and they were fighting. I didn't fire a shot the entire map wasn't seen by anyone. The dog than ran across the shrine room up the stairs while the mech was still fighting it, to sync kill me. Good times
The one-shot is the killer. Even if the grabber just wore you down to 1000, it would place a timer on your run based on your meds. You don’t really need to reduce the aggression, but better AI would be nice. Also, the new behavior is all grabbers, not just the cemetary. Really lame.
If we going to underdog perspective, i think. It is better to do somethings. For example, sacrificing some of loot to lure, ability to scavs to drop off backpack to hide in smaller crevices. However, it will limit your storage capacity dras-fucking tally. For the dog, how about sound bombs? Like a crying woman voice, dog investigating the area. But more as it hears, less of it works. Gives urgency to think where would be fit to throw something.
Yeah, I mean if they could do a visual pass on all units that'd be great but its a ton of work. I really like the aesthetic design of Dead Space in regards to their UI and information presented in game, makes it feel really grounded.
At this point, I just think DEVS troll their community. Rather than balance grabber, they implement Scav Medium Mech...which with high maintenance and high profile would get imminently hunt down and destroyed, considering how aggressive HK units are towards scavs. Immersion breaking, and stupid clown design. This game goes into the gutter.
had something similar happen to me. I was able to close all of the doors leading from the pipes spawn into the main sewer tunnel, trapping the grabber in that section of the map. Only for it to despawn then respawn in the same area I was (main sewer tunnel)
“Oh boy, this cemetery map is really cool, can’t wait to complete these new quests!”
That grabber which I hate:
Something interesting the Devs could add to make things more interesting and a very easy way to make the map better. Add random patrol's of either Europa or scavs that can draw the grabbers attention, potentially giving the player brief moments where they can freely escape or shot to clear enemies without drawing the grabber. Basically give it distractions occasionally that gets easily wiped out by the grabber or uruskans
Yeah additional ways the grabber can be distracted would be great. It kind of does this with the cultists but not very consisnently considering they only spawn on the night version of the map. Other ways of distracting it via sound would be nice too.
It three different states of behaviour could very easily be telegraphed to the players with different colors and modes of its glowing "eyes", without the need for additional animations or blend animations. On default the eye could be yellow, when it is in search mode the yellow eyes could be blinking or flickering, and when it is in aggro mode the eyes turn red. all this in addition to audio cues for all three states.
That's a very good idea you could propose It on the discord maybe it could make It to the Game :)
The Grabber on the map is TOO smart. The pipes spawn is an utter nightmare because the grabber is behind the door directly to your front and the door to your right side is mostly always closed. Opening doors gets the grabbers attention and if you open the side door and theres infantry there then you end up getting sandwiched. Hell if you even make it past the grabber then try to close doors to lock it into a section of the map the game will simply respawn it in the central tunnel (happened right in front of me a few days ago, closed the last blast door and im tracking it with the cam feed then it vanishes and reappears 30 feet away from me in the same exact tunnel that im in)
i remember in one of the Q&As fun dog did about the game is they mentioned of adding throwables later on like smoke grenades. they might add something like emp grenades to stun the grabber but its not yet confirmed other than the smoke grenades.
EDIT: its IEDs that stun and de aggro the grabbers! i saw a quest for the scavs to get a log book from cemetery and in the description it warns you about grabbers. in return you get 8 IEDs as a reward. this can't be a coincidence so i tested it just now and the grabber ran away and de aggroed.
Maybe the Dev's intended to play this game in coop, it would make for cool stories when this thing grab one of a four player squad while the other three escape.
Yeah, I could see that but I would also imagine it getting old pretty quickly if the map is the "pick one of you to sacrifice to the grabber gods".
They didnt intend shit, man
Its made for single and coop
Stop making up excuses to things that clearly need adjusting.
@@killpo_1 True, they should really add some vents and small passages or lookable rooms like they have near sewer extract on elephant mausoleum to this map.
maybe the devs should have 2 AI packages: "several players play together" and "a solo player". The solo player gets the dumb and blind grabber.
Honestly, on the topic of balance, I feel TFW is kinda at a crossroads rn. On the one hand, it seems to have a very strong anti-war message, which is (at least in theory) primarily delivered via the whole "you're not that guy" premise. Feeling helpless and deliberately creating unfair gameplay mechanics very much feeds into that, and is something that I'd like to see the devs explore more, especially since high-tier equipment and highly prestiged scavs at least partially neuter this component of the game.
On the other hand, though, it is ultimately a game, and people will only play it (and thus absorb the messaging) if it's fun, engaging, and fair enough to be a worthwhile investment of your time and energy as a player.
Ultimately, I think that it'd be somewhat interesting if the Cemetery remained extremely dangerous and even somewhat unfair. They'd just need to add a _bit_ more counterplay to the Grabber and create lucrative quests and/or valuable loot that can be found there, both to explain why the Euruskans would station a Grabber there, and why a scav would ever risk visiting it in spite of that. In the long run, adding scaling recurring costs or requiring specific rare components would force the player to engage with the more dangerous maps and enemies in order to keep up and preserve the premise even as you grow stronger imho.
I think the devs have said before that they want to add quests where you're delivering supplies to soldiers and other NPC-involved quests beyond just rescuing civilians, so this map would probably be perfect for those less combat-focused quests.
Appreciate the well researched video, as well as your constructive suggestions
I think a stagger window during the one-shot kill animation should be implemented to allow coop teammates to assist, specifically when the Grabber’s face plate opens revealing a human-like head inside; which could be a weak point. Coop would be more dynamic if it manages to pick off teammates individually, which is probably what it was envisioned to do.
Im guessing the dev were so caught up In their own marketing “we’re not like other developers” they kind of miss that games like Outlast and Alien Isolation and Lethal Company have the same issue but actually solved the problems. Unlike Forever Winter in those games we actually have means of surviving and avoiding problems that doesn’t just come down to “cross your fingers and hope pathing and spawns don’t give you the middle finger”
Yeah I hope that they can fix it, I really like the concept behind the idea it just seems to be half baked at the moment.
@@killpo_1 I thinking something closer to Isolation for the hunter killers where they have two AI., the first one know where you are and directs the second AI to look for you their. BUT if it doesn't find you or other criteria are met it will leave to go somewhere else (their supposed to have their own agenda after all), rather then have the mob just camp.
I wonder if just adding an auditory cue if the grabber is within a certain distance of you, which intensifies as you/it gets closer, would solve most of these issues. It'd also inadvertently help with the grabber respawn issue too, if it suddenly spawns you near you.
I think some air vents to sneak through and robot dogs to dodge inside said vents would be cool
Part of a fix might be to give it an aggro health pool that when depleted forces it to flee to preset regeneration points to recover. Cause too much Nosie and draw its attention you can hit it hard and fast to make it withdraw for a short time. But each time that health pool gets bigger. It could still one shot you, though i am not a huge fan of that, but this would give players a way to push back and manage it without just letting us kill it outright.
Appreciate your detailed dive on these steps and the positive and constructive work.
The grabber looks like a unit that should disengage when it's shot too much. This could lead to it trying to stalk you if you drive it off, needing you to somehow get it to be distracted or trying to recklessly rush through areas it might have trouble navigating to try and lose it.
Imo there should be a way to cripple the grabber.
Like setting up IEDs and luring it into them would result in it losing a limb, making it incapable of using it´s grabbing attack (but that´s when it would never lose agro, not being the defaul), or hitting it´s joints with the anti tank to achieve the same effect (would give the weapon utility.).
Or if we go with the route to make it killable then it should be a specific thing. Like for example: If it opens it´s face shield (either in combat or in an idle animation when passive) you could shoot the head inside which would kill the grabber. Meaning you´d have to either risk and engage it in a direct fight or stalk it until you find a good opening to take clear shot. But in turn that would cause euruskan forces to be on high alert and aggro a lot faster.
In short, dealing with the grabber should be something you have to plan and prepare for.
Sidenote: something that could also help in general is throwable grenades to use both as a source of damage and as a lure.
The one-shot is absolutely broken AND it kills you via cutscene rather than a dodgeable animation.
And its AI is completely broken as well, never losing aggro and seemingly knowing exactly where you are. The map is a series of corridors without any real options to avoid contact.
I'm not playing this map at all in this state.
If they made this speciffic grabber a special variant, like a grave guard that will enter the map, patrol and leave. Only to then come back at any point and anywhere would be cool IMO. “Do I engage these guys to get to the quest objective now? If the guard comes back in the middle of a firefight i’ll be in trouble…”
I have lost argo with the grabber before in the cemetery but it was a straight up pain to do and required a bit of luck
the first time I have no idea how I did
I think it might have gotten distracted by cultist but im not sure but the second time it was near the main entrance with those two big doors on the bottom right where you can sometimes see civilians being held hostage
I basically lock myself in there and after some time he just gave up and went on his usual walk path
the down side to this is that the doors are random if they want to work or not so its never guaranteed to work because of that
also wish that stagger for the grabber work a lot more
there times Ive shoot them in the face and they run away after they stagger and there times where it staggers for like a second and continue running at you
I did noticed I had more luck with shotguns especially the AA-12 with a drum mag working more of the time on making him run away tho
The grabber has a chance to show on other maps too.
Correct, this is a unique variant on the cemetary map. Traditional grabbers on other maps are not like the one mentioned in the video, though the HK variant of the grabber, the Stalker might be.
All units should be distractable. If the Bad Boi comes into a fight with other NPCs, for example, each such distraction ought to come with a chance that it loses "the scent".
What fucker grabbed me through a closed bloody closed door in the main room, I didn’t even realise it was a door I thought it was a bloody wall
How about it's a damaged doggo only on this map and to stagger it you have to shoot his legs 4 a longer stag
Did the quest where the europan mech spawns in the map. Mech agroed the dog and they were fighting. I didn't fire a shot the entire map wasn't seen by anyone. The dog than ran across the shrine room up the stairs while the mech was still fighting it, to sync kill me. Good times
The one-shot is the killer.
Even if the grabber just wore you down to 1000, it would place a timer on your run based on your meds.
You don’t really need to reduce the aggression, but better AI would be nice.
Also, the new behavior is all grabbers, not just the cemetary. Really lame.
If we going to underdog perspective, i think. It is better to do somethings. For example, sacrificing some of loot to lure, ability to scavs to drop off backpack to hide in smaller crevices. However, it will limit your storage capacity dras-fucking tally. For the dog, how about sound bombs? Like a crying woman voice, dog investigating the area. But more as it hears, less of it works. Gives urgency to think where would be fit to throw something.
If you extract without the backpack, you essentially fuck your relationship with scavs.
think of the queen xeno on the dog xeno body, the way the face opens kinda like how the lower jaw justs out a open mouth. i dunno im prob wrong
doesnt the death card call it a cultist grabber?
Ye great take, took the words out of my mouth.
I actually don’t like the cues floating above heads. Breaks immersion.
Yeah, I mean if they could do a visual pass on all units that'd be great but its a ton of work. I really like the aesthetic design of Dead Space in regards to their UI and information presented in game, makes it feel really grounded.
At this point, I just think DEVS troll their community.
Rather than balance grabber, they implement Scav Medium Mech...which with high maintenance and high profile would get imminently hunt down and destroyed, considering how aggressive HK units are towards scavs. Immersion breaking, and stupid clown design.
This game goes into the gutter.
My buddy and I trapped the grabber in the first room....only for him to teleport out of the room and make a B line straight to us....was lame af
had something similar happen to me. I was able to close all of the doors leading from the pipes spawn into the main sewer tunnel, trapping the grabber in that section of the map. Only for it to despawn then respawn in the same area I was (main sewer tunnel)
get grabbed lol
Yeah just not going to play that map at all.
I see it as a feature, not a bug, it's forever winter after all 🦾🗿