VW tested my Id.3 battery (26 months / 45.000 km)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ย. 2022
- @volkswagen #vwid3 #battery
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The degradation is not linear on Li-Ion batteries. It drops fastest when it's new, and then it slows down a lot, except for really old Leafs in hot climates. New EVs should have range which will be practical after 10 years, in cold weather, including charging to 80% on a DCFC. Cheap little city cars should have at least 150 mile real world range, more normal stuff, at least 200 and 250 is better, and premium 300+. And there should be chargers every 80 miles, so even a city car can get through, even if it's a level 2.
Thanks Chris! Very interesting what the car registrates!
We just got a message from our dealer our ID 4 has a battery recal.
Still we are happy with the driving experience so far
The small 12v batteries are being replaced I believe to facilitate OTA updates.
This is why I personally think bigger batteries are better, 58 vs 77 KW/h. You have to charge less and it is easier to keep them at 80% without losing too much range.
My logic behind this is, a small battery is being charged more often and you put more strain on it? Maybe I am wrong, but that would be an interesting comparison as well, 2 of the same cars, age and distance driven, then compare how many full charge cycles were done and what the battery capacity is for each car.
Bigger batteries make a better car I agree. But when you dont need a bigger battery it puts more strain on the environment and has less benefits driving electric over diesel or hybride over the entire lifespan of the car. Calender aging of the battery also adds up making it a lesser value over time.
@@leroy198905 True, but this is what I would like to see, where is the sweet spot, would a 77KW/h battery age the same or better in the same car, driven the same distance, etc. Overall, where is the sweet spot?
Even better are LFP batteries which can handle 100% charge with no issues so the full range of the car can be utilized all the time.
Doesnt he already have 58kWh?
Thats whats so tragic 60kwh battery and he still lost 10% in 2 years or only 45k km this should be a criminal case
And now for the happy news. Downloaded and installed 3.0 yesterday. All went well. Yeeha!
Very interesting video with a lot of real data for comparison. Thank you 👍
My Tesla Model 3 SR+ with 108000km after 41months displays now in average 352km (km/%).
That would be a 7.4% degradation from the 380km when it was new with 41% DC charging.
Charged it only 3 times to 100%. Normally stay between 80 and 15% on trips and between 60 and 40% the rest of the time.
In my opinion the 3 things most damaging : Using constantly the full power, Charging a lot over 80%, Using preconditioning on long distances (battery rarely goes under 40 degrees with 1.5h sections)
Thanks for the info
Quite disappointing. When I look at the BYD taxis with 700 000km in 5 years and 10-20% loss. (LFP)
@@larsradtke4097 They usually lose most in the first year and then a steady, but smaller, loss afterwards.
Degradation is nonlinear so it would be very interesting to see the next test after another 45k. Would expect much lower degradation.
uhuhhhh how much lower? 3-4% no way its less than 2%... anyway 50% battery loss in 10years yeah Im getting rid of ID3 ASAP and getting something that doesnt loose 5% a year.
Im so disapointed in VW about ID3 and how poorly its been engineered never thought a manufacturer with 100years experiance could build something so bad on par with new comers like Tesla, Rivian or what ever.
@@whoami3343100 years of experience in petrol cars is more of a problem in EV world than it is an advantage. Obviously there's a lot of "it can't be done that way becouse WE never did it that way" vs newcomers that would be more like "sure we can do it if it's not against any known law of physics". Remember if not for the Tesla and Renault/Nissan - the likes of VW or Ford would tell us "electric car just can't be done" for the next 200 years. They felt soooo comfortable with their diesels and petrols, that EV revolution is really a nightmare for them. And existentional threat. At least that's my impression from Sandy Munros "teardown" videos and things like that.
Thank you for sharing this! After your previous video with 8% degradation - I was a bit scared from ID.3, but then I consulted it with other EV owners and even this next video confirms the theory that first year degradation is the worst! 2% for such a lot of DC charging is great value. I have almost 4 years old e-golf with around 50kkm on it - 1 year of ownership with 28kkm with keeping all basic rules - never charge to 100% until going somewhere far, trying to avoid DC charging as much as possible.
And I would like to do this test of degradation with my battery also. I have no estimation of SoH a year ago or few years ago :( So this could be my reference point then and I could test it every two years or something like that..
Hey Chris (or is it Kris??). Great information from reliable sources. I'm looking forward to see next year's report. So far I haven't kept any of my electric cars for over a year due to the crazy used car market in Canada I'm changing cars every year and MAKING money on it. I have an id.4 on order and it may end being the last electric I buy for a while(it all depends on how this crazy used car market goes). The 2023 I'd.4 for Canada and the USA have a new battery in them, so your info may not be as pertinent as it was, but it's still a nice data point.
I subscribed btw
Will be interesting to see what the unified cell that comes with facelift will be like.
I have a Tesla Model 3 SR+ with LFP batterys. I regularly charge to 100%.
2 years and 40.000kms, I have 1.3% degradation according to the app Tessie.
I think LFP are a win win... let's see.
10% is normal in the first years and should stay there now👍🏻
I had a couple of days with 100%. This was while the car was at the official VW workshop for repair and they fully charged it.🤬
Bad people there
Nice info, thanks! Would you like to comment about the cost of that capacity / SoH test? I assume you got the test maybe for free from Volkswagen with your reputation as a youtuber, but how much it would cost for a paying customer in Germany?
Normally 100€
@@BatteryLife oh, that’s suoer interesting! From Finnish reseller I got info that the cost could be as much as 500 € !! 🤔😮 I have to ask again!
I wonder how long will you get software updates?
Goodmorning Chris,
Do you know anything about the recal of the HV battery?
What is known?
Video was posted a few weeks back 😉
I have a question that is not related to the subject: Do you have the version 3.0 on your ID3? (And congratulations on all the publications you make).
Thanks. No 2.4
My e-Golf 32.3kWh is charged regularly to 100% but only with up to 7.6kWh. It just reached 42K km and no noticeable degradation yet. I calculated between 31 and 32kWh of remaining usable capacity. Range basically has not decreased.
Hi, what is your normal summer (~22*C) range (0-100) and winter (~0*C) range on your eGolf?
I have a ID3 1st and I just think what is "normal" health? ( VW expected decline in % over time) and what percentage must it come down to before they will "repair / swop" the battery? I'm thinking of getting a test done shortly before the warranty runs out
Below 70% in 8 years but I bet VW will say you did something wrong before agreeing to swapping the battery or modules...😅 Anyway, unlike Tesla, at least VW battery modules are replaceable! 🤗
I've driven my car 78,000 mi and charged about $225 times on a fast charger, and constantly charged to 90%. I haven't any noticeable degradation on my ID 4
When we picked up the new car, it was fully charged. Dealers tend to do that. Maybe it was VW, not you, who left it charged to 100% for a day...
No, delivery SOC is 80% better for the battery and cheaper
Yes vw send them probably with 80 out to dealer.
But when i pick my id3 up at the dealer it was also at 100% .
Was charged from the dealer, but idont know how long it was at 100%.
It was at least for 3 day at the dealer. (Change the rims to winter and getting at registered.)
Donjoe
For me delivery SOC was 100% in Autostadt
Me too, VW dealership called me saying 'your car is ready and fully charged' while I was abroad and couldn't pick it up for at least three weeks! I sent someone to pick it up just because of this. I don't think dealers know the issue with 100% at all
I heard that the first charge should be to 100% but after that you shouldn’t charge above 80% unless you are traveling.
What was the price for testing the batterij at VWcenter?
Hi Chris!!! Greetings from Madrid. I usually check my id.3 58kwh with the OBDeleven to know my car degradation. My last check was on 28/09/22 and the car had 33066km. The result was 54400Wh at 20ºC with SOC at 20%. Could you tell us the data your OBDeleven tells you to know the difference between the OBD and VW? The data is called "Maximum energy content HV Battery”. I really appreciate any help you can provide.
Yes, do it Chris! my ID.3 58kWh with 52.200km 26months OBDEleven show 51.750Wh 10% degradation 90% charges in AC. 10.900kWh charged and more kms than you 😉
@@familiaidvolkswagen9676 which is your typical real range, consumption and in which driving scenarios? It would be interesting to compare these indeed.
@@jom309 my typical real range is about 350kms, moderate climate (0ºC worst in winter and 35ºC worst in summer) 30% urban 30% highway 40% conventional road out city.
What does carscanner say about your battery? How many kw it say?
It would be interesting to know the SoH measured with car scanner, is it more or less the same??
That would be great 👍
The battery does not show soh, only available energy, but I don't know how much it was at the beginning.
@@BatteryLife in my 77 kwh batery id4, total energy was 77600 wh the first Day,..i suppose in your car it would be 58000wh,..
But in my vw dealer, dont know how to check the SoH,..
Very interesting. I think this degradation is pretty high, despite its not linear. Last year I checked our Tesla Model S 90D with ~180tkm. I drove it to around zero kilometers and stood in the garage for over an hour with heater on full power. So the battery must have been very empty. Then I charged to 100%, checked the kWh gone in to the battery the car reported (not the value the wallbox reports, thats without charging losses!), and calculated with the usebable capacity when the car was new.
I came up with 13% degradation. The car was at this point five years old and had around 180tkm. It often charges DC, i would say around 50% because of many long trips (and free Supercharging ;) ).
So in comparison with this two cars I think this value on your ID3 is pretty high. I also drive an ID3, I think Im getting my battery checked too some time.
Very interesting topic, keep going!
I think it's your VW workshop too, when they made the battery test. Anyway, you can look cars SOC at the dealer always at 100%, that's why i dont want to buy dealer's demo cars...
But i think your battery loose too much capacity in only 2 years, i'm afraid for my 77kwh! We are at the beginning of the troubles i think whith electric cars...
One question Chris, I would like to know why VW counts immobility days? Is it most important for the battery than usage days?
No idea why the standing data is important
Interesting, I'll have to check the small print of my lease agreement to see if there's anything in there about not charging it to 100% all the time and what, if anything, is considered as required maintenance as far as the battery is concerned. Perhaps the first generation of EV leases won't be affected, but if they start getting long term leases (3/4 years) with degraded batteries back, I wonder if they'll add something into the lease conditions...
There is nothing in my Ioniq 5's warranty conditions. We are also going to see batteries get better at handling rapid charging, CATL's Qilin for example.
Hello Chris,
What is VW opinion about calibrating the battery with charging it Up to 100% ?
Is it good For battery HealthKit?
Not that I know of
i have limited my car to max 80% and will try not to DC charge it and hope this will keep the battery from degrading to much...i am curious to see how much this will help ones i have hade the car for a few years.
I have 2019 Kia Eniro. 88500 km. It has been charged only up to 80%. Try not yo go below 20%. I charge 99.9% slow charging at home (3.6kWh). The battery is as good as new. Regularly above 400 even 450 km. I live in the NL, though. Here the max speed on the highway is limited to 100km/h.
@@boyanbc thank you for this info. I have the new kia niro EV 2023 model and since it is basicly the same as yours it gives me confidence that this battery will last a long time.
I own a Ioniq PHEV, with 144000km. About 60% of distance has been in EV mode, but the HEV mode also makes the battery work with "microcycles".
This small battery (7'5kWh usable) has a huge amount of cycles (always charged to 100%). The number of cycles must be similar to a EV with 400.000km.
The EV range of the car remained constant (63km when starting) the first 100.000km. Then It lost 1km and remained with 62km until 120.000km.
But last 20.000km, it has lost some 5 additional km.
The EV range now is 57km, which is 90% of initial range. But almost 10% of range has been lost in very short time...
To me this sounds like some of your cells are probably failing a bit already - not possible to balance the cells on higher voltage - it also may be only one cell issue - this will be interesting to have some diagnostic data available to compare :-)
Also 70kkm on 7,5kwh battery is crazy - but then you can use it 0-100% right? in my car I have only 32kwh and I am trying to keep it like 20-80% most of time - so it is mostly only 16kwhs for me which is theoretically only double of your capacity. What is your car and how old it is if that is not problem to share for you?
@@oweckayx My car is a Hyundai Ioniq PHEV (2016). I wanted to use an OBD2 with the app Watchdog, but in the description of the app it is states that works with Ioniq/Niro versions from 2020...
You are the best!!! What's your overall kWh/100klm for all your driven kilometers?
Thanks, No idea. I have the last 6500km, 170 Wh/km
12.040 kWh (at 3:53) for 45.000 km means 26.8 kWh /100 km. That of course includes heating.
@@kaydiederichs1018 and potentially also the recuperated energy and therefore might not be directly connected to the "real" consumption
@@kaydiederichs1018 I didn't notice that. Very interesting and for sure a real consumption, of course without 'recuperated' energy.
I am still thinking :-) Your ID3 was made in 2019, so it has battery LG from Korea not from Poland (NMC 712). Could you please find out what kind of battery does have NMC 622?
Still waiting to see a drop in range on my Catl pack after two years
I had 1 day idle at 100% - dealer charged the car to 100% and left it overnight till they run the SOH test.
Booooo
2 Years, only 45k km and 10% degradation... doesn't it seem to be higher than the expected? My tesla gets like 5% degradation after 50k km and after that it stabilizes a bit.
......after that it's 1% / 50k
My 2017 e-Golf battery has about 8% degradation (have measured anywhere 6% to 9% depending on weather and driving style) at 48,000 miles. Most charging is AC at ~ 6 kW. Deg has dramatically slowed down since 18,000 miles to about ~1% since then.
Concur with this on my 2019 e-Golf SE at 26,000 miles. And it still gets better efficiency than my ID4 with 1/2 the battery capacity. Even with studded snow tires (Hakka 9's) , in winter my e-Golf gets 2.9miles/kWh, whereas my ID4 gets 2.4~2.5 miles/kWh (with Alenzas) in winter. W/O the studded snows, & running ecopias, e-Golf would still be 3.4miles/kWh.
Where VW has failed: in regards to BMS is in NOT giving the owner "choice" in how the battery is managed. With their programming, it is clear that their "law of averages"/ "one way fits all" for a set BMS program policy is an utter failure.
@@markmagiera6115 what sort of choice should VW offer for BMS programming?
Hi, what is your normal summer (~22*C) range (0-100) and winter (~0*C) range on your eGolf?
@@ignacypolanski3422 I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and have yet to take my car into the mountains in the snow, so “winter” for my car is ~5-10 C. I rarely use the full range but have driven it as much as 110 miles at 65 mph in the summer and still have ~15 miles left. In the winter, on the highway, I see about a 15% drop in efficiency, which should translate into a similar drop in range. I almost always drive in Eco mode but use heated seat and cabin heat in the winter, set to 22 or 23 C.
According to Teslafi my Model 3 LR has now lost about 9% in 2 years and 29k km. That's calculated from range at 100% SoC. About 50% DC fast charging, the rest of the time rarely charged over 60%
@@AlanTov Where i live pretty much every 4th car is a Tesla, so i'm in good company :)
I'm pretty astonished what kind of data can been reading out. It looks like this same as Tesla can do. Time on 100% SOC and DC-Charging-Counter will be the values for warranty claims in the future
Model S P85+ 345000km: 12.6% degradation. Edit: 1/3 AC22kW, 2/3 DC 50-120kW
The annoying thing is that MEB cars are silent about faulty or dead modules. The user just sees less capacity and won't know if that's "nornal" degradation or what.
Then VW should get another battery supplier. This resembles something like 10% drop in capacity after 200 full cycles equivalent. A decent battery wouldn't even hit that after 500 full equivalent cycles and it is actually quite easy to find suppliers that can achieve almost 1000 cycles to 90%.
I didn't do any careful test but I estimate my ID 3 to have more than
90% after 100.000 km.
But it has had only one or two short DC charges so it is almost 0% DC charging.
Do you think that avoiding DC charging helps with degradation? If I change only 50kw DC am I on the safe side?
@@robertgidaa2705 DC high rate definitely wears the cells more.
So yes 50 kW will ensure you keep under 1C - still many cells are best at 0.5C or less (e g. 29 kW for the 58 kWh battery).
So if you don't need Ionity speed don't use it.
I had a 24 kWh Leaf (2015) it still had all bars when I sold it last year at almost 80 000 km - it was charged maybe 15 times at DC charge and kept at max 80% most of the time. Never left it with 100% for a day or allowed it to sit with
Curb rash, welcome to the club. You should buy it from your leasing company then instantly sell it maybe just get it detailed first you'll get some money as used EV's are higher priced and you may even get what you bought it for.
That is why buy a 77kw should be a good ideia... to Stay at last with 70k
Don't Awiloo take their degradation figure from the battery + buffer, so the 62kwh?
So maybe the 7.(something) % from 62kwh will be around the 10% of 58kwh?
I thought the 10% from VW is on the usable energy.
So if you started with a 58kWh usable that now it is 10.4% less. So 89.6% of 58kWh = 51.96kWh at 27K km or 2yrs. Here I thought that the pack was a 62kWh pack with 58kWh usable. So there was a 4kWh "buffer." Does the BMS have that 4kWh buffer from software version 2.1 that the car came with? Was there a change to that buffer with software version 3.0? Can such be confirmed by VW?
The thing is that they are not 58kWh usable. If ever they were. My current calculations from consumption, charging data and obd car scanner reports all point out at 51kWh usable , however official VW SOH test reported 93.3% SOH after 2 year and 38k km. 51/58*100% is 9.8% while vw reports 6.7. Go figure. Mind you I had 44kWh for 2 years before I forced them to look into the battery performance. They changed 2 modules.
And most annoying thing is the that vw workshop doesn't have access to battery stats. They can only run the soh test which just gives you % calculated from measured Ah. Ah are not revealed though. I have 0 trust in VW.
The car has 54kwh usable as new. The 58kwh could only be possible if the BMS would let use it. At 100% screen charge the BMS reports 97%. Az 0% screen the BMS reports 5%. Calculate a lot wit car scanner. My car has ~54kwh usable rigt now with 32k km.
I am also not sure that this behaviour dis not change with the 2.4 sw.
@@robertgidaa2705 I was buying a 58/62kWh car, not 54/58kWh. Its still sold as 58kWh usable. There plenty of photos online showing the engraved 62kWh on the ID.3 battery pack. So VW was telling us porkies?
ID.3 battery degradation seems to be a bit high imo. This could be an issue as cars get close to the end of battery warranty.
Unless it settles there will be a Batterygate issue in the future.
I charged always 100% 85.000km 14 months.
Wow you drive a lot!
what's your overall consumption?
You daredevil
And did you chequed the SoH??
Drove 26k in 8 Months. You win😅
10% degradation in just 27k miles is a bit disconcerting and seems a lot worse than we see with Tesla's.
One test result with a Model 3 that spent over 50% of it's life on DC superchargers only showed 10% degradation after 100k miles.
Every car is different. I have been told if Id.3 with higher mileage and less degradation.
@@BatteryLife Yeah, maybe the ID3 battery is more sensitive to fast DC charging.
What was the cost of the battry test?
Normally 100€
Be interesting to see where this goes in the next few years. 10% in 2 years seems a little high, but I know the deg isn't linear and it tails off. But, for those wondering why perhaps the likes of Toyota have been quite slow to EVs. Well, this is surely one of the reasons. They are targeting this kind of degradation at the end of 10years. 90% SOH at 10 years. Think about that! current technology would seem like it does not quite fit the Toyota brand values just yet. We'll get there though! some clever cloggs somewhere will solve this problem.
where do you get your info about toyota's reasons for delay? They actually said they are not interested in EVs, they do not believe in them etc Toyota bZ4X Tested In Norway Has Disappointing Range, Big Battery Buffer At 0%
@@silviuguseila2552 just a hunch, but like you say they aren't interested. I am saying that maybe a reason why is because the technology just doesn't fit their values. They're known for making cars with high value proposition. Long lasting performance and reliability for a keen price. I suspect they do not view current Li-ion technology as being compatible with that. And indeed many current EVs are very expensive and only guaranteed to have 70% SOH at 8years. That isn't good enough.
That degradation is significantly higher than it should be for 2 years with less than 30k miles especially with so few rapid charges to 100% , but this is why I say the warranty especially for 5 years should be unlimited mileage than 100,000 as it will be impossible to claim for degrading. Stating that life before warranty repair of a minimum 70% is just impossible to do , unless something goes drastically wrong even taxi staff wouldn’t be able to claim leaving secondary markets again with the raw end of the stick this is why I hope vw improve its chemistry or swap to lfp so it really improve. Even my Id 4 all wheel us model has lost 6% in 3 months that really doesn’t bold well I’m glad I’m leasing for 4 years maybe then vw will finally have improved to Mercedes level as it really doesn’t like the recent cold I lost 20% in two days frozen parked in the Buffalo weather . I’m sure winter testing should have hi-lighted this as it will affect sales
My obd dongle reports 100% SOH at 16000 km on my Kona at 2 years old
Just not possible. Hyundai is giving you more buffer available. Every EV battery has a few% degradation in the first few months.
@@BatteryLife yup sure. I understand.
Have you got an OBD dongle and stats for your battery?
I'm sure it is just hiding the degradation in the buffer and it's only what the BMS allows you to know.
I'll aee if Hyundai will test it at the 3rs year service. Not as dedicated as you to do a full test by driving for hours 👍
Unless the degradation slows, isn’t the car heading for a battery warranty claim in 6 years time?
No, it will be less and less % each year.
Doesn't VW say that if it drops more
than 7% in 8 years you are untitled to battery replacement? 🧐
Soh 70%
@@BatteryLife So in 8Y you'll have lost 40%...? 😅 I know it's not linear and it depends on the usage but now I'm afraid of my ID3...😬 Via OBD already shows about 2% in 11 months...🤷♂️
I am uncomfortable with the concept of rapid DC charging which I believe leads to premature degradation, so I only ever use AC.
I am a lot on long distance drives. Then DC is needed.
@@BatteryLife Yes, I agree that this will apply to many longer distance EV drivers who have no choice but to use DC.
Rather unhelpfully, Fiat warns that regular use of DC chargers will "accelerate the battery degradation process" but this is buried deep within the owner's handbook and not mentioned in the sales brochure!
10% in 2 years 🤣🤣 I'll keep my combustion engine thanks , it's 21 years old , a LS1 V8 engine still gets about 30 UK mpg , no range loss.
TH-camr News Columb reported 90% battery on his 2017 Chevy Bold. So, 5 years and 156k miles (230k km ish). Maybe your ID.3 will remain at that level or have slower degradation going forward. I am disappointed with your results.
Maybe it's just little to none upper buffer left by the manufacturer. If you know what i mean... Some, like Korean brands I believe - they leave some buffer not only at a low end but also on a high end of battery charge. So your battery is let's say 8 kWh bigger than what your BMS lets you use. And say 4kWh is left by the BMS on a low end + 4kWh on a high end. And when degradation happens - BMS just slices that upper buffer up until it's 0kWh - so you as an user can say "wow - that battery has such a great chemistry - I drove 60kkm for 2 years and no degradation - zero - nada ;) Maybe it's like that. Or maybe those first gen VW batteries are just bad. Time will tell.
10% in 26 months sounds a lot. Does not sound good. Also interesting, if I understood correctly, is that VW only charged tor 97% for the degradation test. Isn't the test supposed to be from 100%?
Why do you say 10 POINT 4 but write it 10,4? Is it because you’re speaking English? Or is that the same in German but you write it as a comma?
Sorry, we write numbers with a comma
45,000 km
12,040 kWh
26.75kWh/100km
That's only 2.3mi/kWh if I've worked it out correctly.
It must be cold there 😆
There is charging loss included
Next up VW tells you how many times you visited a fast food place and how this impacts your life span by 10%.
That seems like a lot of degradation for your battery. Hopefully that really stabilizes going forward. thanks Chris!
Get a tesla next time, I just change my id4 to a tesla y , best decision ever, better on every level
Who cares when most people hand them back after 2-3yrs?! Somebody else's problem then.