Also note that the door code is "2501" to Dr (sorry, PhD candidate?) Munshi's room, which is a reference to Ghost in the Shell's "Project 2501" which inadvertently led to in the eventuation of machine sentience and the digital transferral of human consciousness. The thing is, this code, due to the influence of that movie, has become a common Easter egg to use in games, so I often try it by default. Whoops! But at least in this case, the use of the code is an obvious thematic reference as well as a Easter egg.
Loved this discussion! Even having played the game multiple times I still learned new stuff from you guys, like the fact that the Theta staff knew about the dunbat, seeing Ross at 1:18:21 or that call from Munshi in the office Jordan mentioned (although I know from this one and previous Yeah I've Played's that he's not an entirely reliable narrator lol). Regarding the coin toss and what you guys touch on near the end, I think it was just some sort of metaphor the people in Pathos II came up with to kinda understand better the transition process: whoever copied their mind into the ark would essentially become 2 people, one who "lost the coin toss" (aka the regular human) and one who "won it" and would experience "continuity" (aka the ark copy); but there is no real chance, they're 2 distinct consciences. As I understand it, there is no way we could have always been Simon 4, because we see Simon 3's POV after he "loses the coin toss". Matt may be misremembering, because there is no hard cut after that, we sit with simon for a minute and after Catherine essentially dies then the credits play. The Ark sequence is after the credits. Also yes there are a couple instances when you see photos of the interior of the Ark, but they're just like concept renderings Catherine made and I don't think they suggest anything beyond that. And about the structure gel and the WAU, I could be wrong but I don't think the WAU necessarily controls everything that's infected with gel, I think it's more of a tool that can be used. So all the monsters are aggressive but I don't think it's because of the WAU trying to stop Simon. Btw, Jordan is totally wrong about the doors lol. When you're facing the flesher in the Curie you're in the sunken ship underwater and barely any computers work. You can close the doors later on at Theta when you're facing Terry Akers, before you go down the elevator. Also I loved what Matt was saying about all these echoes fulfilling themselves and all that, really interesting way of looking at some parts of the game. It always took me a while to find the tracer fluid and just thought it was because I never remembered where it was, but knowing that it's in a different place each time is very curious. I think it might just be to get the player to explore as much of the apartment as possible and it spawns in the last place you look, but the fuzzy memory is a cool theory.
Yes, I think the whole "winning the toss" idea that at least some of the crew believed was just a self-serving fantasy of sorts. Or at least, it was a misunderstanding that was elevated to the status of Truth over time, through repetition and belief. But it references the idea of the Quantum Suicide Machine thought experiment viewed through the lens of the Many Worlds theory. The idea is that every time, before the point of death, a quantum copy of a person is made that avoids that death. From the Many Worlds perspective, the person's consciousness would continue to exist through the line of living copies. But each point of copying is actually a junction, and that ever deviating line of living copies leaves behind a potentially unknowable number versions/copies who died and for whom life and consciousness ended. The coin toss idea, I think, is a misunderstanding of this concept. And you could imagine how it came about after so many copies were made and people woke up in the chair and nothing had changed for them. How do you rationalise that when at a point of such desperation? "Well, you lost the toss. It's 50/50. But Bob over there: He killed himself at the moment of transfer. Do you think that let him side step the coin toss? I don't know. We can't ask him. But we can ... Believe..."
@1:40:35 Yes, I suppose from the perspective of the newly made copy on the ark, there is a continuity of existence, because I presume they will remember being copied. And then they are in the ark, so to them it would affectively be a transfer, from their perspective. It's only the original who sees the flaw in that, as they continue as normal ... Unless they immediately die after copying, but still no true transfer happens. I think the coin toss is a self-serving fantasy, or at least a misunderstanding of this general concept. And it would be a way to rationalise what would be quite traumatic in this time of desperation: to do the scan and then wake up in the chair and nothing has changed. Believing that you had lost a 50-50 coin toss might be the only way to cope. And sure, there was that guy who killed himself at the point of copying. Did that allow him to sidestep the coin toss? Don't know. You can't ask him. But you can believe ... It reminds me of the Quantum Suicide Machine thought experiment if interpreted through the Many Worlds theory. If at every junction before the point of death, a quantum copy of the person was made which avoided death, consciousness would follow along the line of living copies, thus creating a continuation of existence that you could subjectively call "immortality". But at every junction, there would still be a version of that person who died and thus, a point where their life and consciousness ended. And ultimately, that's what I believe is happening in Soma, except that copy or transfer doesn't require anyone's death. But I suppose, Soma wants to reflect on this from multiple perspectives. And as you both pointed out, the story presents us with many different characters who all represent the different points of view. One of them that I didn't consider until you mentioned it involved the character of Raleigh. It didn't occur to me in the various times I played the game that she also represented a form of continuity or immortality: that of thought, purpose and legacy. I'm pretty sure that was intentional by the writing team, and thank you for pointing that out. But in a way, that's the only kind of continuation we have (unless you believe in the afterlife or you're reading this in the future when we have certain technologies!). And that I suppose may be the AGONY of that kind of continuation. You can try to pass on those parts of yourself to the next generation so that you might continue THROUGH them. But their lives and their world are not yours. You must live your own, and it's likely you will die without ever knowing if your efforts for continuation were a success.
Not sure if Jordan has played them, but Thief is one of my favorite games, I got it around the time it came out and was hooked by the atmosphere. One of the few stealth games I’m not awful at!
![กี่หมื่นฟ้า | Your Sky Series EP.1 [1/4]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vLGjxFL6U_I/mqdefault.jpg)
Also note that the door code is "2501" to Dr (sorry, PhD candidate?) Munshi's room, which is a reference to Ghost in the Shell's "Project 2501" which inadvertently led to in the eventuation of machine sentience and the digital transferral of human consciousness.
The thing is, this code, due to the influence of that movie, has become a common Easter egg to use in games, so I often try it by default. Whoops!
But at least in this case, the use of the code is an obvious thematic reference as well as a Easter egg.
Currently watching this now, thanks for the shoutout 😊
Thanks for the recommendation!
Loved this discussion! Even having played the game multiple times I still learned new stuff from you guys, like the fact that the Theta staff knew about the dunbat, seeing Ross at 1:18:21 or that call from Munshi in the office Jordan mentioned (although I know from this one and previous Yeah I've Played's that he's not an entirely reliable narrator lol).
Regarding the coin toss and what you guys touch on near the end, I think it was just some sort of metaphor the people in Pathos II came up with to kinda understand better the transition process: whoever copied their mind into the ark would essentially become 2 people, one who "lost the coin toss" (aka the regular human) and one who "won it" and would experience "continuity" (aka the ark copy); but there is no real chance, they're 2 distinct consciences. As I understand it, there is no way we could have always been Simon 4, because we see Simon 3's POV after he "loses the coin toss". Matt may be misremembering, because there is no hard cut after that, we sit with simon for a minute and after Catherine essentially dies then the credits play. The Ark sequence is after the credits. Also yes there are a couple instances when you see photos of the interior of the Ark, but they're just like concept renderings Catherine made and I don't think they suggest anything beyond that.
And about the structure gel and the WAU, I could be wrong but I don't think the WAU necessarily controls everything that's infected with gel, I think it's more of a tool that can be used. So all the monsters are aggressive but I don't think it's because of the WAU trying to stop Simon.
Btw, Jordan is totally wrong about the doors lol. When you're facing the flesher in the Curie you're in the sunken ship underwater and barely any computers work. You can close the doors later on at Theta when you're facing Terry Akers, before you go down the elevator.
Also I loved what Matt was saying about all these echoes fulfilling themselves and all that, really interesting way of looking at some parts of the game. It always took me a while to find the tracer fluid and just thought it was because I never remembered where it was, but knowing that it's in a different place each time is very curious. I think it might just be to get the player to explore as much of the apartment as possible and it spawns in the last place you look, but the fuzzy memory is a cool theory.
Yes, I think the whole "winning the toss" idea that at least some of the crew believed was just a self-serving fantasy of sorts. Or at least, it was a misunderstanding that was elevated to the status of Truth over time, through repetition and belief.
But it references the idea of the Quantum Suicide Machine thought experiment viewed through the lens of the Many Worlds theory. The idea is that every time, before the point of death, a quantum copy of a person is made that avoids that death. From the Many Worlds perspective, the person's consciousness would continue to exist through the line of living copies.
But each point of copying is actually a junction, and that ever deviating line of living copies leaves behind a potentially unknowable number versions/copies who died and for whom life and consciousness ended.
The coin toss idea, I think, is a misunderstanding of this concept. And you could imagine how it came about after so many copies were made and people woke up in the chair and nothing had changed for them. How do you rationalise that when at a point of such desperation?
"Well, you lost the toss. It's 50/50. But Bob over there: He killed himself at the moment of transfer. Do you think that let him side step the coin toss? I don't know. We can't ask him. But we can ... Believe..."
@1:40:35 Yes, I suppose from the perspective of the newly made copy on the ark, there is a continuity of existence, because I presume they will remember being copied. And then they are in the ark, so to them it would affectively be a transfer, from their perspective. It's only the original who sees the flaw in that, as they continue as normal ... Unless they immediately die after copying, but still no true transfer happens.
I think the coin toss is a self-serving fantasy, or at least a misunderstanding of this general concept. And it would be a way to rationalise what would be quite traumatic in this time of desperation: to do the scan and then wake up in the chair and nothing has changed. Believing that you had lost a 50-50 coin toss might be the only way to cope. And sure, there was that guy who killed himself at the point of copying. Did that allow him to sidestep the coin toss? Don't know. You can't ask him. But you can believe ...
It reminds me of the Quantum Suicide Machine thought experiment if interpreted through the Many Worlds theory. If at every junction before the point of death, a quantum copy of the person was made which avoided death, consciousness would follow along the line of living copies, thus creating a continuation of existence that you could subjectively call "immortality". But at every junction, there would still be a version of that person who died and thus, a point where their life and consciousness ended.
And ultimately, that's what I believe is happening in Soma, except that copy or transfer doesn't require anyone's death. But I suppose, Soma wants to reflect on this from multiple perspectives. And as you both pointed out, the story presents us with many different characters who all represent the different points of view.
One of them that I didn't consider until you mentioned it involved the character of Raleigh. It didn't occur to me in the various times I played the game that she also represented a form of continuity or immortality: that of thought, purpose and legacy. I'm pretty sure that was intentional by the writing team, and thank you for pointing that out.
But in a way, that's the only kind of continuation we have (unless you believe in the afterlife or you're reading this in the future when we have certain technologies!). And that I suppose may be the AGONY of that kind of continuation. You can try to pass on those parts of yourself to the next generation so that you might continue THROUGH them. But their lives and their world are not yours. You must live your own, and it's likely you will die without ever knowing if your efforts for continuation were a success.
Hell yeah. Somas super underrated
Soma best game ever. The atmosphere, plot, ending
It’s very good!
Hell yeah boys. Good stuff
Many thanks!
Strong ending. 5/5
Thank you SOMA-ch for watching
I wonder what you think of the old Thief games
Not sure if Jordan has played them, but Thief is one of my favorite games, I got it around the time it came out and was hooked by the atmosphere. One of the few stealth games I’m not awful at!
@@HiddenMachineGaming same. The first one blends supernatural in well too.
I never played them! They always looked cool to me but I think I was just a little too young when they first came out