How'd you find out Milwaukee found out your specific order and went behind the scenes to give you the best from their QA line, or is this a trade secret?
brother, i gotta say i appreciate your effort to stay transparent and fair. it means a lot especially in this day and age, i'm sure many viewers feel the same. integrity seems so rare on youtube
The few channels I watch regularly are the channels that show honesty and integrity. In this day and age of AI, it's become the thing I value over just about everything else.
As a former developer, I'd rather be working with tools tbh. That and single purpose computer boards or playing around with embedded computers like Arduinos. If I had to do it all over again, I'd go to trade school.
@@striderstache99don’t take for granted the abuse your body does NOT have to take as part of having a white collar job…i love wrenching my car and whatnot, but i don’t for a second wish I could be doing that all day, every day.
@ Speaking of prototypes, I somewhat recently worked in a prototype shop. Because of cost, it would be unlikely to make something too good and let it out of our hands. It is possible they could eliminate power regulation, include a better battery, or stronger or heavier clutch. Often prototypes have shortcomings until close to production when they are just do ongoing testing. Anyway, sometime around 2007 Nucor had a DeWalt tool contract where, for a flat fee of about $25,000/yr, they would come weekly and replace worn/broken tools (screw guns, drills, and circular saws). We were using the older corded drywall-style impact screw guns, with a metal impact chuck, to drive about 1,000,000 lag screws per month 24hrs a day 5-6 days a week, and we were very hard on the tools. DeWalt came in and asked us to try a new prototype impact screw gun like all the cordless 1/4in impacts we are familiar with today. They were certain it would outperform the older screw guns but it only lasted 30 minutes. Surprised, and disappointed, the rep left and didn't bring one back. I wondered what they did afterwards. Shortly after I saw the new style impacts come out to replace the clutched drills. We are all happy to use them over the drills but I never compared the two. I believe that older screw gun would still outperform the new impacts, however, I have also not worn out a 1/4in impact even though today I started feeling like it may be wearing.
@@TorqueTestChannelthe xc4.0ah should technically do better than the xc6.0ah simply because of the discharge rates of the cells used in each that is why the new HO5.0 beats the others. What I’m curious about is the 3.0ah and xc3.0ah.
the honesty of cancelling your order to avoid an over-built version straight from Milwaukee is well done. 1st waves to big channels are usually really beefed up and the ones on the shelf can be nice but not always whats on paper advertised.
@@TOOL_TECHNICAL absolutely, I'm glad he tested all the different batteries. I knew 400+ ft/lbs was asking a lot out of those tiny batteries but I didn't think there would be that much difference
And please explain how they are beefed up? are you saying milwaukee is modifying the internals and sending those modified non stock tools to tool reviewers? SUUUURE BUDDY suuuuure lmao
LoL at Milwaukee trying to back channel you a test unit 😂 It looks like a pretty good tool. I’ll have to pick one up and see how I like it compared to my old DeWalt.
They absolutely met their claims. But they didn't get there with magic and pixie dust. There was some serious engineering and some compromise to get there. Weather or not it's worth it is up to the individual purchasing it. One of the coolest and most complete tests I've ever seen.
@@LightSaber12345 To be fair, the only reason this video doesn't include bolt removal is because the tool wouldn't do any removing at 14:43. Doesn't prove anything either way though, bolt removal is dependent on how its set up. Bolt size, thread pitch, condition, socket size. Can't calibrate for any of those things before testing each time when nut busting, which is how brands like to keep it.
That was a rollercoaster. When I started watching I was thinking "oh no, I'm gonna have to replace my M12 stubby if there's a new model with double the beans", but by the end of the video I'm very happy with what I have. Thank you for the good work you do!
yeah it's really enticing but the mode selector thing along with the higher battery drain is a deal breaker for me. I'll just keep using my gen 1 as a daily driver and if I absolutely NEED beans in a tight space I can pull out an air tool.
Yea but gotta give their advertising dept a pat on the back for trying as hard as they did.. makes you wonder how the tools they wanted ttc to buy really chooched…
It's HIGHLY scummy and totally unexcusable! Such a clear and blatant attempt to influence the results of the testing definitely sours me some on the brand. The dumb thing is that this tool performed well, yet they still tried to influence the results. Makes you wonder how much they have tried on their less well performing tools.
This happened as a result of our community post showing the shipping dates being delayed, the most likely reason is they were attempting to get our order filled a few weeks before everyone who pre-ordered like we did.
We've thought about it before, but there's channel rules for a reason . If we knowingly accept a tool from a brand sent specifically for our channel once, it's no longer a rule. Based on how this tool performs I doubt they would even need a golden sample for it to amaze, but no doubt most are probably also using that 5Ah as well when noticing that performance.
@@TorqueTestChannel I suppose if you were to test free stuff you should probably just preface the video by saying 'these are samples' and put them on their own separate ranking, or even do a direct comparison between one they send you and one you buy yourself.
If they are doing some sleuthing to find that out, there is a good chance that there was a golden sample or three involved, but we won't find out now. Maybe the next time that happens, the video could be one of those "jokes on you, we're onto your shenanigans" videos....then you could send that golden sample off to One of your viewers. I know you got rules, but breaking the rule were specific case because of a specific video might be an interesting video in and of itself. The idea would need some fleshing out, but it could make for an awesome video!! Thank you for another awesome video!!!!
Next time that happens with the manufacturer samples, you should accept the sample tool and then test it versus one you bought from a physical retailer to see if any oems are playing games
Ive avoided every single other video about the new stubby until this one came out. This blew away even my wildest expectations and since i already run a 5ah on my gen 1 it seems like a no brainer
Those 5 amp HO batteries are $70 on Amazon. They’re OEM. I’ve bought 3 of them and opened them up to make sure they have the new Samsung cells and they do.
As someone who likes to use the 2.5 battery on the 1st generation, a near 100 ft Ibs gain for practically the same footprint is impressive. It also makes more than the DeWalt which is obviously bigger while also being restricted on power. If Milwaukee makes a forge M12 batteries which I pray they do, I fear what this little stubby could do to the point where I honestly think it would break.
I got mine last week and tested the tightening torque with a 5aH batt. Mode 1 is 15-30ft-lbs depending on how long you hold it. Good for all M8 bolts, would break M6 if you didnt do a quick zap. Mode 2 is instantly 75ft-lbs so it can zap on lug nuts but it will overshoot hard if you’re not fast on the trigger. Bolt mode seems to be 15ft-lbs.
@@LightSaber12345 lug nut on my car with a snap on torque wrench to tell me when the nut moved. So yeah it’s not scientific because the weight of a 19mm socket vs smaller ones, and static thread friction. But it’s just a ballpark for running fasteners down and knowing it’s not going to snap instantly. So I obviously couldn’t test mode 3 cause that would snap the stud.
Agree. I do that all the time without thinking. Plus, It's all over online, showing what people do when They get handed an impact. If it was 3 clicks or more, I'd be ok with it.
I got mine yesterday. It's a powerful little sucker, but I've already found myself accidentally changing the power level by bumping the direction switch into neutral without noticing
What kind of man doesn't occasionally blip the throttle 2 times to make sure the tool is operating to spec :D Does Milwaukee not know the man code??? The tools easier to get into neutral than all their others as well.
Appreciate your transparency. That’s what makes this a great channel! Really impressive numbers from this tool. Was a little disappointed in the speed interface change, but after your disassembly I understand why they had to do it. Great info as always. Thanks for sharing!
If you have issue with draining the battery fast, run it on a lower setting. Rarely do we need 550 out of a stubby but it’s nice to have. I’m heavily invested in Milwaukee, I have never warrantied a tool or battery out of my 10 years as a heavy equipment mechanic. You will not regret buying this tool or any others.
Amazing, but that battery drain is a bit of a deal breaker for me. Even though my service box truck has power for lights and charges, the thought of having to go plug in a battery every 30 minutes seems a bit irritating.
M12 batteries are pretty cheap. Most of us with a few M12 tools have plenty of batteries. I have 6 M12 tools and 10 M12 batteries. Almost all of them came free with the tool
@NonieTools I'm right there with you, but point is why... when the mid torque can do more with a longer run time. When you push mechanical things to their limits... you get to find the limits. Time will tell I guess...
@DarylOster yeah.... that's not how it works... bigger motor = more windings = more current = shorter battery run time. Even at no load it's going to draw more amperage
I love that your channel and others are keeping the manufacturers honest. Hopefully we’re done seeing brands build their name and then race to the bottom as they try to coast on their previous accomplishments like we used to see in the 80s and 90s with brands like craftsman, skill, and black and decker. You sir are a champion
As long as you would’ve been 100% honest and transparent like you always have, it would’ve been pretty sweet to see what they were trying to sneak you.
I bought this off my neighbors tool truck. I work in the HVAC/R industry and I use this for breaking bolts loose on compressor feet. I love this tool. It gets in spaces that I would normally have to do by hand and bust my knuckles on. The battery drain is real. But it doesn’t bother me if I don’t have bloody knuckles anymore.
Not all that experienced as a mechanic, I'm a plumber but my stubby dewalt DCF921 broke CAT c32 motor head bolts free with a 9amp 60 volt flex battery. It got through 5 bolts before killing the battery, but it did get them out. Just for clarity this was off of a old excavator that was abandoned in the woods.
I feel like you’ve been the only honest one about this impact. The battery information is something to highly consider. It makes me think the dcf921 Is still worth hanging on to since battery life isn’t a big issue a 4ah last me about a week.
I have the 2.5 HO, and I am completely OK with the performance from that and have no current plans to go and get that 5. I got this tool specifically for size, and driving 3/8 sockets. I only just bought in to m12 a few weeks ago because I needed a new Dremel (switch on my super old one is giving out) and I wanted a cordless one, so I got the kit with the free project light. And I got this to spin 3/8 sockets. It performed really well with that 2.5 IMHO. If I need more power I'll just go and grab a bigger impact, pretty impressed by this little thing.
Man I had just picked up a 923 before the gen 2 was announced and I was holding my breath the entire episode. Crazy performance under ideal conditions thats for sure. Although the battety compatibility and drain coupled with the mode selector make me feel a little better.
I’m so happy you did a review on this, I have no need to replace my older m12 1/2” but want to. As far as the new mode select and its usefulness, I’m here to say in my use case it’s perfect, and here’s why. I use this impact for bolting up low pressure pipe and hoses, think 2”-6” 150 flange, and a lot of times I’m holding one hose near the flange while another person holds the next up, if you send it even on 2 you’ll birdmouth the flange and have to loosen it, so it’s best to put it on the fourth mode that stops at low torque. I really like the ability to not lift a 50lb piece of hose onto my should so I can use two hands to change modes. I really hope this comes to the 3/4 m18 impacts, the bottom mode switch gets hit all the time with gloves and even though it’s only a few seconds to stop, it stops eight people rigging up between operator, spotters, techs, etc and gets everyone pissed.
@@TorqueTestChannelAlternatively, they might also specify that you compare the latest & greatest against a older/weaker model that definitely WASN’T their previous best. Like the Ryobi Edge being compared to the most basic 4Ah they sell, instead of the HP 4Ah
Terrific video showing the different batteries! I was looking up my recent Home Depot order and had an ad for the Ryobi FVRC51K. It's a 3/8 ratchet for 79. It's rated for a knuckle busting 10 ft/lbs @ 220 rpm. It would be cool to add that to the showdown list.
Personally, I really like the new mode select. Biggest thing i like it for when im under a car, holding the tool, and holding something in my other hand. Ive had it on the low setting, and clicked it to high without needing to do some weird contortionist shit with my hand to select a higher mode. Just bump it to locked, and double tap a couple times with a pause between them.
I was sold until you uncovered that it won't make the beans with the stubby batteries.... Glad you brought this to surface and that I was not deceived in thinking it could do the max torque also with a stubby.
Even with the smaller battery it still outperforms the previous Gen so I don’t know why everyone complaining. With a 2.5 ho it still puts out the same amount as the DeWalt 20volt.
I sold all my Dewalt 18v and All my Milwaukee 18v. This power coming from the M12 line was known about 2 years ago. Just amoung departments of large companies having salesmen come in and talk about what's coming as these large companies are shopping too tool their techs. I suggest everyone do the same if you can. Milwaukee is about to send 12v into the next level. Fraction the wieght and a fraction of tool bag take up, the 12v line is going to be insane. Technicans dream that's putting miles on his work boots a day. Cheers everyone this is going to be sweet. 🍻
Did y’all try it with a 4 , in the past that 4 has been a top pick for power over the 6 . I also would like to know about the longevity of the tool. The way they built it and the heat don’t think I will be rushing out for one my old stubby still going fine . Give it a few years see how it holds up.
I feel like this is the reason this channel was the one of few who didn’t get to test it before it came out. They knew it was gonna be bad. I still got it from Home Depot and excited to try it
My bad if I missed it in this video or another, but have we tried the gen 1 with the 5.0? The 5.0 HO almost seems like the biggest story in M12 tools lately.
Yeah, TTC replied with the link to it on one of the top comments here. The 5.0 HO and 6.0 actually end up making about the same numbers because the motor is the limiting factor on that tool
I recently got the 2nd gen since I’m new to automotive work and I didn’t have the old one or the big m18 and saw the numbers and figured I could bust a few lugs off with it as well. I have to say I completely agree with the battery usage claim. It eats up battery life quick. I removed and re tightened 8 tires and already lost a bar (20mm and 21mm lugs)
I just bought one yesterday, made a bit of a buzz in my little tool group😂 I'ma hit a 1 1/4 bolt with a torque wrench @500 and see if it delivered the beans. I got the 3/8 due to me normally needing mid torque numbers out of my old stub, but I've got a few 5.0 batteries.... We'll see what it be
I run the gen 1 3/8” stubby with the small foot 3.0 amp hour battery as my daily driver. Would love to see the numbers on the gen 2 with the 3.0 small foot and in a 3/8” model. Love the channel and you guys do. Thank you
Amazing testing. Thanks. I own the gen 1, and the newish mid torque. Always love to hear how things are being improved (or screwed up as with the high torque).
One thing isn't shown on your charts is Torque per ounce. Yes, torque for every $ spent helps to make your buying decision, but that's a one time option. Every hour holding these tools counts even more when using. Just as most mechanics wouldn't use a 3/8-inch [3/4-inch] drive to do a tire rotation, most wouldn't use a 1/2-inch drive impact to take off a trans pan. 90% of the time, I would use the lightest tool that can get the job done. Perhaps this could be done as a separate introductory video.
I preordered one, got it last week.. It's really not that bad, I like the old way better but this doesn't ruin the tool... Took off 100ftlb lug nuts easy pz and it weighs as much as my hex driver.
@@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx its not that bad. you have to put it in neutral to change it first. I own one, its not super easy to put it in neutral.. try it first.
I had a quick look at RC batteries and it seems, that inside small M12 case one could fit 1300mah 100C LiPo packet. That is rated for 130A constant discharge and up to 260A peak... MAKE ONE :D (of course, when you discarge with 100C current you are looking at 30s full to empty...)
I am very glad I waited to get a stubby till now. I've been using the M18 compact for exactly the reason you said, but now since I have a few M12 batteries this is absolutely worth getting. Absolutely nuts for a compact to make that much.
I have a ton of the m12 tools in my kit and I love them, but they drain so much faster than my m18 batteries so for when I need to bust out more than an impact driver I reach for my m18's, still cool to see them expanding the power and usability of the m12 tools so much
Very impressive! I have the DCF923 and didn't feel the need to buy an M12 Stubby despite loving M12 tools. The DeWalt option was cheaper than the Milwaukee after deal hunting, as usual. Now I'll be tempted again. I don't like the trigger mode selection, but not a huge deal. I don't have any 5.0 batteries though, only 6.0 so bummer.
At last! Awesome video & finally we get to see how it really performs throughout varying tests but most notably, the batteries! It's a great tool, but up until now most ... 'creators' have merely shown it in its' best light as opposed to the more - realistic/average one ie no 5.0HO 24/7
Appreciate the commitment to staying unbiased. I'm not a fan of one button having multiple functions. And using the main booger hook switch to control modes doesn't seem like a good idea to me. How many guys double tap the go switch the first time they pick the tool up off the bench? I'm a 17 year and counting truck mechanic and I still do that.
I have doubts on long term reliability and usibility. Heat is the number 1 killer of electronics. The plastic shroud doesn't dissipate the heat as good as the old aluminum one. The chewing threw batteries going to be annoying as hell.
This is a cool addition and no doubt useful for many people. But for me, I'm happy with the 2960-20 in 3/8. For the smaller stuff I use a 2853-20. For the delicate work, I really like the sensitivity of brushed so I use a 2462-20.
not buying into this new m12 hype, i’ll stick to my 18v makita compact and current m12 stubby milwaukee once again creating questionable features. this m12 trigger mode adjustment and the m12 installation tool mode adjustment.
Sounds like Milwaukee improved their battery technology. At the same time they improve their tool. You guys should do a side-by-side comparison of the old M12 stubby with the new battery and the new M12 stubby to see if the old tool gets a performance boost by just using the new battery and how far apart they really are when they’re powered by the same cell
@@iCutWaffles well yeah that’s the point of all compact impacts, and yeah that is true if your removing only one bolt. Not so much when you’re removing multiple. You know like we need to do when working on a vehicle. 15 seconds and dropping one bar is crazy consumption. Once again I don’t need an impact that will take off 5-20 bolts before needing recharged or a new battery. My dewalt and first gen Milwaukee like depicted in this video, I can get hours of use out of, not minutes. Important you know when you’re working 8-10 hour days. I’d rather use a hand ratchet or a breaker bar than spending money on a product that won’t last me through one vehicle before needing a recharge.
@@DarylOster you’re still making some big excuses for a tool by saying that too. You will have to charge this I’d guess at a minimum 5 times sooner than any other impact. Dropping one bar in 15 seconds is insane. As I said you don’t live in the rust belt if you’re making them claims. I’ve worked on cars this impact would be dead after 5-10 bolts 😂
Makes sense business-wise that Milwaukee would want to get you guys the Stubby2.0 sooner rather than later. Doubt the stubby they sent would have operated better.... There would have been one way to find out... Thanks for staying above reproach Ttc, we appreciate all you do.
I returned mine. I had bought the bare tool and was running standard 2.0 Ah batteries and wasn’t getting the torque I required; I thought I had bought a dud. Plus the double tap trigger thing was simply the most annoying feature I’ve experienced in a while. Clearly they did zero actual user testing when they came up with that “feature”.
Honestly it's crazy that companies are paying enough attention to you to try to expedite your orders like that. It shows that they're definitely noticing you and I'm sure they're noticing the impact y'all have too with your testing! Keep up the great work!
If the new M18 models will perform even better Dewalt and the other brands will have some catching up to do. Competition is always good for the consumer.
I commend you guys for the effort to maintain the integrity of the work you do. I agree that they likely wouldn’t try to juice the tools because you guys are thorough.
Will you test the 3/8 version at some point? Was kind of suprised you didnt show it and/or both in this video knowing the 3/8 Milwaukees for some reason tend to be stronger than their 1/2 counterparts
At home Depot right now You can get a kit with 2 ho 5.0 and charger for $199 and get free tool, return free tool and You've got the 2 batteries and charger for $110
Does the 3/8" still pack a bigger punch than the 1/2"? People would say to get the 3/8" with a 1/2" adapter to use 1/2" sockets on the 3/8" wrench to get the maximum beans out of the tool.... Is that still the case with the 2nd gen m12 stubby?
I'm curious about this too. I'm thinking of getting a 3/8s one since sockets are smaller and the point of a compact is to get into tight spots. be nice to know the power difference
Thanks for the brilliant review. Could you make another video in which you show us the different torques that the different settings of the device achieve?
Something I would be very interested to see is a video comparing entire tool ecosystems. Buying into a battery ecosystem is expensive no matter what brand you pick and avoiding buyers remorse is something I always strive for.
Wow, that's impressive! Great video, keep up the good work TTC! By the way, what bits do you use to disassemble power tools? I can't really anything with a head that small and long. Most have the 1/4" hex shaft most of the way down that can interfere with the case around the screw.
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M12 5Ah High Output for $71: amzn.to/3zzZHGT JBTools as the seller, same place we bought the 5ah battery in this video
One Question , Does Gen 1 perform better with new High Output battery ?
@@JakeM240 not so much from what we can tell th-cam.com/video/blz17nr-AeM/w-d-xo.html&si=49fLt6G3QSNAh_fn
in Indonesia m12 5Ah HO $75 made in China .
How'd you find out Milwaukee found out your specific order and went behind the scenes to give you the best from their QA line, or is this a trade secret?
@h8GW the retailer told us Milwaukee sent them a sample to ship to us. We asked because it was delayed several weeks then wasn't.
brother, i gotta say i appreciate your effort to stay transparent and fair. it means a lot especially in this day and age, i'm sure many viewers feel the same. integrity seems so rare on youtube
I second this. It’s the reason why I believe this channel is the GOAT in tool testing
100% I have bought more than a couple tools based on the reviews here. The no BS, no frills approach is why I subscribe. Awesome channel.
The few channels I watch regularly are the channels that show honesty and integrity. In this day and age of AI, it's become the thing I value over just about everything else.
Integrity is rare in the world in general, especially when money is involved (look at any political system anywhere in the world, for example)
As a graphic designer, web developer, I've never worked with torque power tools, and yet here I am, every friday, enjoying these videos.
As a former developer, I'd rather be working with tools tbh. That and single purpose computer boards or playing around with embedded computers like Arduinos. If I had to do it all over again, I'd go to trade school.
Time to start. Get some tools, they're invaluable. Every project you complete yourself saves hundreds compared to hiring someone.
Start to collect power tools, it is fun!
@@striderstache99don’t take for granted the abuse your body does NOT have to take as part of having a white collar job…i love wrenching my car and whatnot, but i don’t for a second wish I could be doing that all day, every day.
Just use an Impact Wrench on the CSS. EZ solution
If any company wants to send you something pre- release, take it and then wait for it to be released and buy one to test them head to head.
That's one thing, what Milwaukee tried to do however, sounded a tad sleazy to me.
The only thing about a pre release is maybe they make sure its not a dud. thats it. its not any different than a stock properly functioning tool
Definitely should've tested the 2 back to back
That’s a great idea.
@ Speaking of prototypes, I somewhat recently worked in a prototype shop. Because of cost, it would be unlikely to make something too good and let it out of our hands. It is possible they could eliminate power regulation, include a better battery, or stronger or heavier clutch. Often prototypes have shortcomings until close to production when they are just do ongoing testing. Anyway, sometime around 2007 Nucor had a DeWalt tool contract where, for a flat fee of about $25,000/yr, they would come weekly and replace worn/broken tools (screw guns, drills, and circular saws). We were using the older corded drywall-style impact screw guns, with a metal impact chuck, to drive about 1,000,000 lag screws per month 24hrs a day 5-6 days a week, and we were very hard on the tools. DeWalt came in and asked us to try a new prototype impact screw gun like all the cordless 1/4in impacts we are familiar with today. They were certain it would outperform the older screw guns but it only lasted 30 minutes. Surprised, and disappointed, the rep left and didn't bring one back. I wondered what they did afterwards. Shortly after I saw the new style impacts come out to replace the clutched drills. We are all happy to use them over the drills but I never compared the two. I believe that older screw gun would still outperform the new impacts, however, I have also not worn out a 1/4in impact even though today I started feeling like it may be wearing.
Thank you for testing all the battery size types! No other channel has tried this
For people curious, the Gen 1 M12 does ABOUT the same on average between an XC6 and 5HO for us: th-cam.com/video/blz17nr-AeM/w-d-xo.html
@@TorqueTestChannelhave you tried the 3.0 battery the round one tho not the square one.
@@TorqueTestChannelthe xc4.0ah should technically do better than the xc6.0ah simply because of the discharge rates of the cells used in each that is why the new HO5.0 beats the others. What I’m curious about is the 3.0ah and xc3.0ah.
the honesty of cancelling your order to avoid an over-built version straight from Milwaukee is well done. 1st waves to big channels are usually really beefed up and the ones on the shelf can be nice but not always whats on paper advertised.
Would've been interesting if he got that one and then bought another from HD in a couple months to see if they give out beefed up versions
@@LukeA_55 true but too late milwaukee is watching these comments. Brands know TTC isn't afraid to show the lack of quality control lol.
@@TOOL_TECHNICAL absolutely, I'm glad he tested all the different batteries. I knew 400+ ft/lbs was asking a lot out of those tiny batteries but I didn't think there would be that much difference
@@TOOL_TECHNICAL I wonder if they're going to come out with forge batteries for the M12 line
And please explain how they are beefed up? are you saying milwaukee is modifying the internals and sending those modified non stock tools to tool reviewers? SUUUURE BUDDY suuuuure lmao
Finally we get to SEE an objective perspective of this tool
LoL at Milwaukee trying to back channel you a test unit 😂
It looks like a pretty good tool. I’ll have to pick one up and see how I like it compared to my old DeWalt.
Dewalt supremacy funk, you know this😂
They absolutely met their claims. But they didn't get there with magic and pixie dust. There was some serious engineering and some compromise to get there. Weather or not it's worth it is up to the individual purchasing it. One of the coolest and most complete tests I've ever seen.
Weather?😂😂
@@CPthetooladdictit can remove 600 ft•lbs torqued bolts shown in other videos. TTC doesn't remove bolts for some reason
@@jay-sk7bl grammar nazi I see
@@LightSaber12345 To be fair, the only reason this video doesn't include bolt removal is because the tool wouldn't do any removing at 14:43. Doesn't prove anything either way though, bolt removal is dependent on how its set up. Bolt size, thread pitch, condition, socket size. Can't calibrate for any of those things before testing each time when nut busting, which is how brands like to keep it.
@@CPthetooladdict claim 400 ft lbs with 550 nut busting. so they got the 400 . ttc doesn't do nut busting
That was a rollercoaster. When I started watching I was thinking "oh no, I'm gonna have to replace my M12 stubby if there's a new model with double the beans", but by the end of the video I'm very happy with what I have.
Thank you for the good work you do!
😂 was right next to ya
Why though? What makes you not want it?
I mean still double the beans, just doesn't make you dumb for owning last gen since you need new battery
@@saiiiiiii1 Having to use the trigger to change modes.
yeah it's really enticing but the mode selector thing along with the higher battery drain is a deal breaker for me. I'll just keep using my gen 1 as a daily driver and if I absolutely NEED beans in a tight space I can pull out an air tool.
Finally! Am I the only one that feels the brand trying to sneak you pre-release tools a bit scammy??? Seriously good numbers though!
Yea but gotta give their advertising dept a pat on the back for trying as hard as they did.. makes you wonder how the tools they wanted ttc to buy really chooched…
It's HIGHLY scummy and totally unexcusable! Such a clear and blatant attempt to influence the results of the testing definitely sours me some on the brand. The dumb thing is that this tool performed well, yet they still tried to influence the results. Makes you wonder how much they have tried on their less well performing tools.
Someone at marketing was grinding hard lol.
This happened as a result of our community post showing the shipping dates being delayed, the most likely reason is they were attempting to get our order filled a few weeks before everyone who pre-ordered like we did.
@@TorqueTestChannelWell, that’s nice of them but the potential for nefarious shenanigans was still very high so we respect the way you handled it.
It might have been interesting to see if they sent you a "golden" sample compared to the retail one.
We've thought about it before, but there's channel rules for a reason . If we knowingly accept a tool from a brand sent specifically for our channel once, it's no longer a rule.
Based on how this tool performs I doubt they would even need a golden sample for it to amaze, but no doubt most are probably also using that 5Ah as well when noticing that performance.
@TorqueTestChannel testing the free stuff compared to the store would be neat to see but not worth it imo.
@@SnifferSock this is what I was talking about. Keeping them honest.
@@TorqueTestChannel I suppose if you were to test free stuff you should probably just preface the video by saying 'these are samples' and put them on their own separate ranking, or even do a direct comparison between one they send you and one you buy yourself.
If they are doing some sleuthing to find that out, there is a good chance that there was a golden sample or three involved, but we won't find out now. Maybe the next time that happens, the video could be one of those "jokes on you, we're onto your shenanigans" videos....then you could send that golden sample off to One of your viewers.
I know you got rules, but breaking the rule were specific case because of a specific video might be an interesting video in and of itself.
The idea would need some fleshing out, but it could make for an awesome video!!
Thank you for another awesome video!!!!
Next time that happens with the manufacturer samples, you should accept the sample tool and then test it versus one you bought from a physical retailer to see if any oems are playing games
Ive avoided every single other video about the new stubby until this one came out. This blew away even my wildest expectations and since i already run a 5ah on my gen 1 it seems like a no brainer
I'd agree
Check out shop tools reviews. It can undo 600 lbs•ft torque bolts in 10 seconds with the 5Ah HO battery
@@LightSaber12345 don't they also remove 500, 550 ftlbs with impact drivers over there?
Incredible graphics for easy comparison, absolutely genius on your part. Thanks so much!❤
This video was seriously one of your best ever. I really appreciate the work you do. You're a game changer for the industry.
Wow, this is an impressive tool. One thing Milwaukee has a record of is superior power/size ratio. I hope it proves to be durable long term as well.
Those 5 amp HO batteries are $70 on Amazon. They’re OEM. I’ve bought 3 of them and opened them up to make sure they have the new Samsung cells and they do.
We also bought one of those, curious, last week. Will post a link unless the seller changes
Home depot has a sale for two 5.0 with a free tool or a third 5.0 for 200 dollars right now.
@jonathanshaw8868 that home depot deal is so good right now. I got the high speed ratchet and a radio for $280 after doing the refund trick
@@jonathanshaw8868 Too bad they don't have the new stubby as one of the tools. Although there are a couple pretty enticing ones.
@@TorqueTestChannel did the original stubby show much of a difference between batteries also?
As someone who likes to use the 2.5 battery on the 1st generation, a near 100 ft Ibs gain for practically the same footprint is impressive. It also makes more than the DeWalt which is obviously bigger while also being restricted on power. If Milwaukee makes a forge M12 batteries which I pray they do, I fear what this little stubby could do to the point where I honestly think it would break.
Milwaukee said "sure let's LS swap a Miata and put it for sale on the dealership lot."
When I first read your post I thought you said Makita. 😂
Thank you sooo much for the video !! We picked up 190 3/8 impacts today !!! Ready to ship
I got mine last week and tested the tightening torque with a 5aH batt. Mode 1 is 15-30ft-lbs depending on how long you hold it. Good for all M8 bolts, would break M6 if you didnt do a quick zap. Mode 2 is instantly 75ft-lbs so it can zap on lug nuts but it will overshoot hard if you’re not fast on the trigger. Bolt mode seems to be 15ft-lbs.
How did you test it?
@@LightSaber12345 lug nut on my car with a snap on torque wrench to tell me when the nut moved. So yeah it’s not scientific because the weight of a 19mm socket vs smaller ones, and static thread friction. But it’s just a ballpark for running fasteners down and knowing it’s not going to snap instantly. So I obviously couldn’t test mode 3 cause that would snap the stud.
The double tap mode switch is an absolute no go. That's gonna get activated all the freaking time.
Agree. I do that all the time without thinking. Plus, It's all over online, showing what people do when They get handed an impact.
If it was 3 clicks or more, I'd be ok with it.
Double tapping an impact is natural instinct encoded in human DNA.
it has to be in neutral to switch modes i believe
Yeah that's gonna break some bolts off.
I mean how often are you doing that in neutral? It has to be in neutral in order to change. Won’t do it in forward or reverse
I got mine yesterday. It's a powerful little sucker, but I've already found myself accidentally changing the power level by bumping the direction switch into neutral without noticing
What kind of man doesn't occasionally blip the throttle 2 times to make sure the tool is operating to spec :D Does Milwaukee not know the man code??? The tools easier to get into neutral than all their others as well.
@@TorqueTestChannelit must be built into us. Can’t grill without clicking the tongs either. It’s a primal urge I’m sure of it. lol
They should have done it like Makita where there's a separate switch above the trigger that cycles modes. I never hit it accidentally.
@@robertdascoli949 Looks like the new PCB they moved forward for motor space is in the way of that spot now
Just like the double wobble in a manual car to make sure it’s not in gear! Haha
Appreciate your transparency. That’s what makes this a great channel! Really impressive numbers from this tool. Was a little disappointed in the speed interface change, but after your disassembly I understand why they had to do it. Great info as always. Thanks for sharing!
Getting off work on a Friday and watching TTC is how I like to start my weekend!
If you have issue with draining the battery fast, run it on a lower setting. Rarely do we need 550 out of a stubby but it’s nice to have. I’m heavily invested in Milwaukee, I have never warrantied a tool or battery out of my 10 years as a heavy equipment mechanic. You will not regret buying this tool or any others.
Amazing, but that battery drain is a bit of a deal breaker for me. Even though my service box truck has power for lights and charges, the thought of having to go plug in a battery every 30 minutes seems a bit irritating.
M12 batteries are pretty cheap. Most of us with a few M12 tools have plenty of batteries. I have 6 M12 tools and 10 M12 batteries. Almost all of them came free with the tool
@NonieTools I'm right there with you, but point is why... when the mid torque can do more with a longer run time. When you push mechanical things to their limits... you get to find the limits. Time will tell I guess...
@jonathanshaw8868 the power is only taken out of the battery on a nut so tight the gen1 won't remove it...
@DarylOster yeah.... that's not how it works... bigger motor = more windings = more current = shorter battery run time. Even at no load it's going to draw more amperage
I love that your channel and others are keeping the manufacturers honest. Hopefully we’re done seeing brands build their name and then race to the bottom as they try to coast on their previous accomplishments like we used to see in the 80s and 90s with brands like craftsman, skill, and black and decker. You sir are a champion
As long as you would’ve been 100% honest and transparent like you always have, it would’ve been pretty sweet to see what they were trying to sneak you.
Probably nothing, with the way his test turned out they probably just wanted the good publicity out asap for the launch
I bought this off my neighbors tool truck. I work in the HVAC/R industry and I use this for breaking bolts loose on compressor feet. I love this tool. It gets in spaces that I would normally have to do by hand and bust my knuckles on. The battery drain is real. But it doesn’t bother me if I don’t have bloody knuckles anymore.
Not all that experienced as a mechanic, I'm a plumber but my stubby dewalt DCF921 broke CAT c32 motor head bolts free with a 9amp 60 volt flex battery. It got through 5 bolts before killing the battery, but it did get them out. Just for clarity this was off of a old excavator that was abandoned in the woods.
When my DCF921 broke the rusted axle nuts free on my pickup I almost shed a tear. What a brave new world we live in.
@@hngbros8346 same here man
@@hngbros8346 same here man
You should have accepted the tainted sample to test against a random retail sample.
Are we gonna see the new Milwaukee batteries anytime soon
I feel like you’ve been the only honest one about this impact. The battery information is something to highly consider. It makes me think the dcf921 Is still worth hanging on to since battery life isn’t a big issue a 4ah last me about a week.
I have the 2.5 HO, and I am completely OK with the performance from that and have no current plans to go and get that 5. I got this tool specifically for size, and driving 3/8 sockets. I only just bought in to m12 a few weeks ago because I needed a new Dremel (switch on my super old one is giving out) and I wanted a cordless one, so I got the kit with the free project light. And I got this to spin 3/8 sockets. It performed really well with that 2.5 IMHO. If I need more power I'll just go and grab a bigger impact, pretty impressed by this little thing.
or if needed you could buy an individual battery for $65 and have it as a backup but still gen1 levels of torque on a 2.5amp battery is really good
I love my milwaukee dremelsni have 2 one set up for grinding tungsten and the other for tig prep work
Man I had just picked up a 923 before the gen 2 was announced and I was holding my breath the entire episode. Crazy performance under ideal conditions thats for sure. Although the battety compatibility and drain coupled with the mode selector make me feel a little better.
TBH - A 350 HO Chevy engine will only produce its HO numbers with premium/racing fuel.
I’m so happy you did a review on this, I have no need to replace my older m12 1/2” but want to.
As far as the new mode select and its usefulness, I’m here to say in my use case it’s perfect, and here’s why.
I use this impact for bolting up low pressure pipe and hoses, think 2”-6” 150 flange, and a lot of times I’m holding one hose near the flange while another person holds the next up, if you send it even on 2 you’ll birdmouth the flange and have to loosen it, so it’s best to put it on the fourth mode that stops at low torque.
I really like the ability to not lift a 50lb piece of hose onto my should so I can use two hands to change modes.
I really hope this comes to the 3/4 m18 impacts, the bottom mode switch gets hit all the time with gloves and even though it’s only a few seconds to stop, it stops eight people rigging up between operator, spotters, techs, etc and gets everyone pissed.
Finally, an actual head-to-head with Gen 1. I’ve been wondering why none of the early reviews bothered to compare actual performance.
When working with brands they almost always don't allow you to compare the tool vs anything else, just show/test the tool and comment on the new tool.
@@TorqueTestChannelAlternatively, they might also specify that you compare the latest & greatest against a older/weaker model that definitely WASN’T their previous best.
Like the Ryobi Edge being compared to the most basic 4Ah they sell, instead of the HP 4Ah
@@TorqueTestChannel lol I didn't know that
Terrific video showing the different batteries! I was looking up my recent Home Depot order and had an ad for the Ryobi FVRC51K. It's a 3/8 ratchet for 79. It's rated for a knuckle busting 10 ft/lbs @ 220 rpm. It would be cool to add that to the showdown list.
When are ya'll getting your hands on the DCF964? I want to see if it has greater potential with the 3/4 anvil it should have had from the begining
Personally, I really like the new mode select. Biggest thing i like it for when im under a car, holding the tool, and holding something in my other hand. Ive had it on the low setting, and clicked it to high without needing to do some weird contortionist shit with my hand to select a higher mode. Just bump it to locked, and double tap a couple times with a pause between them.
I was sold until you uncovered that it won't make the beans with the stubby batteries.... Glad you brought this to surface and that I was not deceived in thinking it could do the max torque also with a stubby.
Even with the smaller battery it still outperforms the previous Gen so I don’t know why everyone complaining. With a 2.5 ho it still puts out the same amount as the DeWalt 20volt.
Great review, especially showing different batteries in the mix. I would have liked to see power level 1 and 2 tested also..
Been waiting for this episode for it seems an eternity. Woohoo!
I sold all my Dewalt 18v and All my Milwaukee 18v. This power coming from the M12 line was known about 2 years ago. Just amoung departments of large companies having salesmen come in and talk about what's coming as these large companies are shopping too tool their techs. I suggest everyone do the same if you can. Milwaukee is about to send 12v into the next level. Fraction the wieght and a fraction of tool bag take up, the 12v line is going to be insane. Technicans dream that's putting miles on his work boots a day. Cheers everyone this is going to be sweet. 🍻
Did y’all try it with a 4 , in the past that 4 has been a top pick for power over the 6 . I also would like to know about the longevity of the tool. The way they built it and the heat don’t think I will be rushing out for one my old stubby still going fine . Give it a few years see how it holds up.
Workshop Addict looks to have tested with the 4ah as well
I feel like this is the reason this channel was the one of few who didn’t get to test it before it came out. They knew it was gonna be bad. I still got it from Home Depot and excited to try it
My bad if I missed it in this video or another, but have we tried the gen 1 with the 5.0? The 5.0 HO almost seems like the biggest story in M12 tools lately.
Yeah, TTC replied with the link to it on one of the top comments here. The 5.0 HO and 6.0 actually end up making about the same numbers because the motor is the limiting factor on that tool
I recently got the 2nd gen since I’m new to automotive work and I didn’t have the old one or the big m18 and saw the numbers and figured I could bust a few lugs off with it as well. I have to say I completely agree with the battery usage claim. It eats up battery life quick. I removed and re tightened 8 tires and already lost a bar (20mm and 21mm lugs)
Which battery were you using during that ??
@@mgmt1215 the 5ah high out put that comes with it
408 ft pounds is impressive for the new gen 2 Milwaukee stubby nice Testing @torque test channel
I just bought one yesterday, made a bit of a buzz in my little tool group😂
I'ma hit a 1 1/4 bolt with a torque wrench @500 and see if it delivered the beans.
I got the 3/8 due to me normally needing mid torque numbers out of my old stub, but I've got a few 5.0 batteries.... We'll see what it be
Hummm I'll stick with my Dewalt 921 w/ 1.7 Powerstack for compactness ... can bust thru 95% of the jobs I encounter
I run the gen 1 3/8” stubby with the small foot 3.0 amp hour battery as my daily driver. Would love to see the numbers on the gen 2 with the 3.0 small foot and in a 3/8” model. Love the channel and you guys do. Thank you
Ready to see dcf964 3/4 drive test please
Really appreciate all of the insights related to the battery!
Can't what for the forge m12
you'll wait for a long time since 18650 tabless cells are not out yet
wait*
Amazing testing. Thanks. I own the gen 1, and the newish mid torque. Always love to hear how things are being improved (or screwed up as with the high torque).
One thing isn't shown on your charts is Torque per ounce.
Yes, torque for every $ spent helps to make your buying decision, but that's a one time option.
Every hour holding these tools counts even more when using. Just as most mechanics wouldn't use a 3/8-inch [3/4-inch] drive to do a tire rotation, most wouldn't use a 1/2-inch drive impact to take off a trans pan. 90% of the time, I would use the lightest tool that can get the job done.
Perhaps this could be done as a separate introductory video.
Man this video is insane.. i usually subscribe to like 1 channel every year.
First video and you got me instantly
that "double tap feature" is a deal breaker for me, i already know im going to get so frustrated, keep the buttons, its more bulletproof
I preordered one, got it last week.. It's really not that bad, I like the old way better but this doesn't ruin the tool... Took off 100ftlb lug nuts easy pz and it weighs as much as my hex driver.
@@twentyonehertz yeah but the true test is when u accidentally press the trigger when ur shoulder deep in an engine bay, and not get frustrated
@@throwawaypt2throwawaypt2-xp8nx its not that bad. you have to put it in neutral to change it first. I own one, its not super easy to put it in neutral.. try it first.
I've been waiting for this for a month! Thx so much for your work.
I had a quick look at RC batteries and it seems, that inside small M12 case one could fit 1300mah 100C LiPo packet. That is rated for 130A constant discharge and up to 260A peak... MAKE ONE :D (of course, when you discarge with 100C current you are looking at 30s full to empty...)
Everyone making tools to pass Toque Test Channel's testing method.
We're sorry :( At least we make episodes when they continually break as well, so hopefully it's just pushing better tools out there
I am very glad I waited to get a stubby till now. I've been using the M18 compact for exactly the reason you said, but now since I have a few M12 batteries this is absolutely worth getting. Absolutely nuts for a compact to make that much.
not me, a makita fan watching this, waiting for them to make anything new ... but literally anything
they release new tools often
I have a ton of the m12 tools in my kit and I love them, but they drain so much faster than my m18 batteries so for when I need to bust out more than an impact driver I reach for my m18's, still cool to see them expanding the power and usability of the m12 tools so much
so basically it makes max power on one specific battery only, I think they should be clarifying that on the box in bold letters
bruh thats just common sense. expecting the max torque out of those tiny compact batteries is just dumb
Dude that's common sense. Any impact is going to make max power with the best battery.
@@paul9912 that's not always true and videos on this very site prove otherwise
@@paul9912 and not always with such a big gap like these, only one battery supplies max power the rest are all about the same
@@mmettej even with the 4 or 6 they all make about the same power except for the 5
Very impressive! I have the DCF923 and didn't feel the need to buy an M12 Stubby despite loving M12 tools. The DeWalt option was cheaper than the Milwaukee after deal hunting, as usual. Now I'll be tempted again. I don't like the trigger mode selection, but not a huge deal. I don't have any 5.0 batteries though, only 6.0 so bummer.
Over 300 ft lbs with a 2.5 is still wildly impressive.
At last! Awesome video & finally we get to see how it really performs throughout varying tests but most notably, the batteries! It's a great tool, but up until now most ... 'creators' have merely shown it in its' best light as opposed to the more - realistic/average one ie no 5.0HO 24/7
Appreciate the commitment to staying unbiased.
I'm not a fan of one button having multiple functions. And using the main booger hook switch to control modes doesn't seem like a good idea to me. How many guys double tap the go switch the first time they pick the tool up off the bench? I'm a 17 year and counting truck mechanic and I still do that.
I'll keep my DCF923, no reason to upgrade to Red, and the DCF900 does anything else with ease.
I have the same set up and it’s perfect
Very good video, the video is very well shot and very honest.
I have doubts on long term reliability and usibility. Heat is the number 1 killer of electronics. The plastic shroud doesn't dissipate the heat as good as the old aluminum one. The chewing threw batteries going to be annoying as hell.
This is a cool addition and no doubt useful for many people. But for me, I'm happy with the 2960-20 in 3/8. For the smaller stuff I use a 2853-20. For the delicate work, I really like the sensitivity of brushed so I use a 2462-20.
not buying into this new m12 hype, i’ll stick to my 18v makita compact and current m12 stubby
milwaukee once again creating questionable features. this m12 trigger mode adjustment and the m12 installation tool mode adjustment.
Sounds like Milwaukee improved their battery technology. At the same time they improve their tool. You guys should do a side-by-side comparison of the old M12 stubby with the new battery and the new M12 stubby to see if the old tool gets a performance boost by just using the new battery and how far apart they really are when they’re powered by the same cell
A full bar in a 15 second test?? No way I would buy a tool that’s going to last maybe a full minute of work. That’s insane.
It is for small, compact areas mostly. And you aren't impact for a minute straight with these tools, if any electric impact.
@@iCutWaffles well yeah that’s the point of all compact impacts, and yeah that is true if your removing only one bolt. Not so much when you’re removing multiple. You know like we need to do when working on a vehicle. 15 seconds and dropping one bar is crazy consumption.
Once again I don’t need an impact that will take off 5-20 bolts before needing recharged or a new battery. My dewalt and first gen Milwaukee like depicted in this video, I can get hours of use out of, not minutes. Important you know when you’re working 8-10 hour days.
I’d rather use a hand ratchet or a breaker bar than spending money on a product that won’t last me through one vehicle before needing a recharge.
Over 90% of fasteners will bot require so much torque - and will not drain the battery.
@@DarylOster lol you don’t live in the rust belt
@@DarylOster you’re still making some big excuses for a tool by saying that too. You will have to charge this I’d guess at a minimum 5 times sooner than any other impact. Dropping one bar in 15 seconds is insane.
As I said you don’t live in the rust belt if you’re making them claims. I’ve worked on cars this impact would be dead after 5-10 bolts 😂
Makes sense business-wise that Milwaukee would want to get you guys the Stubby2.0 sooner rather than later. Doubt the stubby they sent would have operated better.... There would have been one way to find out... Thanks for staying above reproach Ttc, we appreciate all you do.
I returned mine. I had bought the bare tool and was running standard 2.0 Ah batteries and wasn’t getting the torque I required; I thought I had bought a dud. Plus the double tap trigger thing was simply the most annoying feature I’ve experienced in a while. Clearly they did zero actual user testing when they came up with that “feature”.
Honestly it's crazy that companies are paying enough attention to you to try to expedite your orders like that. It shows that they're definitely noticing you and I'm sure they're noticing the impact y'all have too with your testing! Keep up the great work!
That double tap “feature” seems horrible! Unbelievable performance but man that’s almost a deal breaker for me
Power output wouldn't be possible without it
@LightSaber12345 Bullshit. They designed that PCB so it would change modes via double tap.
I'm running my 3/8 with a 3.0 battery and it's still a beast. Been removing truck lugnuts with ease and then still use it to work on suspension jobs
If the new M18 models will perform even better Dewalt and the other brands will have some catching up to do. Competition is always good for the consumer.
I commend you guys for the effort to maintain the integrity of the work you do. I agree that they likely wouldn’t try to juice the tools because you guys are thorough.
Will you test the 3/8 version at some point? Was kind of suprised you didnt show it and/or both in this video knowing the 3/8 Milwaukees for some reason tend to be stronger than their 1/2 counterparts
Man this was a banger. I hope you get TONS of views and spread the word on the size batteries this particular tool needs 🔋
I’ve never used anything but the 5.0 on my stubby, had it for two years now and I’ll be glad to buy the new one with another 5.0.
At home Depot right now You can get a kit with 2 ho 5.0 and charger for $199 and get free tool, return free tool and You've got the 2 batteries and charger for $110
Does the 3/8" still pack a bigger punch than the 1/2"?
People would say to get the 3/8" with a 1/2" adapter to use 1/2" sockets on the 3/8" wrench to get the maximum beans out of the tool....
Is that still the case with the 2nd gen m12 stubby?
I'm curious about this too. I'm thinking of getting a 3/8s one since sockets are smaller and the point of a compact is to get into tight spots. be nice to know the power difference
Thanks for the brilliant review. Could you make another video in which you show us the different torques that the different settings of the device achieve?
Very impressive results! Too bad about that stupid trigger mode change "feature".
Something I would be very interested to see is a video comparing entire tool ecosystems. Buying into a battery ecosystem is expensive no matter what brand you pick and avoiding buyers remorse is something I always strive for.
I recently learned with Milwaukee that you better buy yours from an authorized dealer or they will NOT cover any warranty issues.
Shout out to the goat that has that list available. Data should never be pay walled.
Wow, that's impressive! Great video, keep up the good work TTC! By the way, what bits do you use to disassemble power tools? I can't really anything with a head that small and long. Most have the 1/4" hex shaft most of the way down that can interfere with the case around the screw.
I have been waiting for this video for a moment. Audibly said "Yes!!!" when I saw it on my feed.
I’ll stick to my dcf 921. Practicality of battery use. Plus its a matter of time before black and yellow blow their doors off with an updated model