Oh my goodness, what a wonderfully heavy sound from the violins at 3:29.... amazing how the musikverein didn't explode from the sheer amount of musical talent possessed by both the VPO and Zimerman...
Majestuoso concierto para piano de Beethoven; Zimerman, todo un lujo en la interrumpida entrada tras las escalas en Do menor. Sencillamente único. Muchas gracias por subir también la 2ª parte, Tguiot. Un saludo desde España. :-))
I will give you examples soon...but for now...notice that the last octave played by the orchestra before the piano entrance is slightly delayed (no rit. is notated) Also Zimerman's first high G is slightly delayed. (The note has a sf and it is standard practice to take some time on sforzandos.) Most importantly count the 7th bar of the piano part...it is the bar before the quiet second half of the first phrase. THERE ARE TWO FULL EXTRA BEATS!!!!!! COUNT THEM!
Actually he was student of an exceptional pianist and pedagoge prof. Andrzej Jasinski. He spent several days living in Paris in Arthur's Rubinstein invited by him and of course these days were very significant for him.......
Paderewski on rubato: Tempo Rubato ... is one of music's oldest friends. It is older than the romantic school, it is older than Mozart, it is older than Bach. Girolamo Frescobaldi, in the beginning of the seventeenth century, made ample use of it.... Popular instinct evolved it probably long before the first sonata was written. Expressed although nameless, it has always been in all national music." Gould pulls tempo around a lot, at least to my ears.
Moonlight is middle period " the early period, where he emulated great predecessors Haydn and Mozart, the middle period, where his encroaching hearing loss led to large-scale, defiantly heroic orchestral works including the famous "dun-dun-dun-dah!" Fifth Symphony, and the late period, which yielded works of immense intellectual depth from a composer who existed in a world of near-total silence. Beethoven ushered out the Classical period with the back of his hand and fathered the Romantic era"
@schaefer1697 yes, surely he did (from the bottom of his heart i believe); when i was in high school (in china, think about it, even there), the music course we had presented bernstein as someone comparable to karajan in interpreting beethoven, certainly there are far more (even better in some way) conductors and the lessons were by no means higher than entry level, but that did make the point.
Frank "It's impossible for anyone to play on time. So don't try so hard to. " I have sung and played in concert - and it's not only possible but essential. "So you're agreeing on that meter ... IS also a variable for musicality. " I never disagreed that is was. I originally posted that rubato is not appropriate to the classical style - Mozart and earlier. Beethoven's 3rd is a mix. He devised metronome markings because he must of thought the exact metric was important.
Well I thought so because his interpretations are very fluctuating regarding to the tempi (the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata for example). I don't share your opinion but which Beethoven Pianist do you like?
It's all relative. That's my point. I didn't make black and white statements about Beethoven's music. It depends on how close the style is to the Classical. This concerto is clearly in the classical style.
Yes I've heard a lot of performances in the romantic self-indulgent style. None of them satisfy. I'm not so sure how 'respected' they are. The second movement is truly in the Romantic vein - so your point is off target. If you've ever played in concert you know how important keeping the time is.
"So rare to see the 3rd done so well" How true. I've searched high and low and I don't understand why so many interpretations fall short. Either too slow, too glib..not 'military' enough etc... This performance, however, almost makes the grade.
meter? meter is 2/4 or 3/4, etc. The issue here is timing. And what I am saying is stifling is the failure to recognize that timing, in any style of music (and naturally there are differences from one style to another), can be flexible.
first off, they aren't waiting for the soloist, big guy, because the delayed note has a fermata over it, so the soloist can come in whenever he wants. What you call grasping at straws is giving specific examples. There is this thing in music performance called subtlety. Rubato does not mean gross exaggeration and discarding of tempo. When you try to really make great music, every subtlety counts. And one of the most important subtleties is in timing...
'taking time' means? I'm a musician trained under a well respected teacher and have never heard this expression. Rubato is inappropriate in Mozart, certainly - can hardly be excused as 'taking time'. This concerto is in the 'classical' style though Beethoven is the transition to Romantic. How do you think the musicians stay together without strict counting? It's how the music is written. Beethoven put metronome markings for a reason.
alright, let me take a survey of some of the other students here at Juilliard and I will get back to you...I notice you didn't comment on the timing of Zimerman's first phrase of this piece...did you listen to it? You also didn't say who your teacher is. Keeping the time? Of course you want to keep a pulse, but flexibility in timing is essential.
Yet in Mozart whose paradigm was JC Bach, there is no such expectation. From Alfred Einstein--Mozart: His Character, His Work "...Mozart lends charm even to the mechanical. For he allows the mechanical to perform its own function, and the mechanical element is part of the very nature of the concertante style. He would have smiled at composers who demand 'expression' in every note. As those rubato players whose left hand 'always follows suit'..."
"listen, smart guy, what I'm saying is that editor's comments are not relevant when it comes to playing Bach." If you can make the leap from the editorial concensus to a traditon of perfomance - they are definitely relevant when taken as a whole.
"First of all, if you knew what you were doing you wouldn't base ANYTHING on editors' comments " I'm basing it on ALL editors comments - the conspicuous lack of that expressive mark - is significant as a performance tradition. Not to mention the performances themselves.
If you prefer to use the word 'tempo' instead of meter, fine. It's a little late to be making that point. me·ter2 /ˈmitər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mee-ter] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation --noun 1. Music. a. the rhythmic element as measured by division into parts of equal time value. b. the unit of measurement, in terms of number of beats, adopted for a given piece of music. Compare measure (def. 14).
so so...he's not bad...He's an accomplished pianist - but there's a kind of madness, a 'diabolique' in Beethoven that the centuries of culture have mellowed and whose softening Barenboim represents. It's dangerous when great masters become 'comfortable' to our sensibilities.
Even though he may look like one of the three musketeers he is the sort of pianist I admire because his playing has real depth and colour, very poetic and lyrical in the same style as Perahia and Lupu. I can't bear those pianists who have brilliant technique but no colour or variety of tone in their playing.
"Rubato and "meter-warping" is a critical part to making music, music. " You confuse 'rubato' with 'espressivo'. There are other variables besides meter.
This is the conventional periodization of Beethoven, but I don't agree with it. The Middle Period is supposed to start with the Eroica (1803), but for my money, the Pathetique (1797) is solidly middle-period and even in Op 2 no 1 he is definitely already his own man. At the other end, the 8th symphony looks back to the 18th century, & I would also put the op.126 Bagatelles in the middle period stylistically. BTW Gould uses lots of rubato in Bach & it sounds authentic. Or good, anyway.
"Good luck finding any music written by Bach without rubato" Easy. I play such continually. The expressive marking rubato is never added by any editor. Of all composers Bach is the most demanding of strict meter. Have you heard of Glenn Gould?
Perhaps Bernstein didn't have a really good technique but knew how to trasmit Beethoven's emotions. I think that Zimmerman plays this concerto in a wild way. I prefer it with Rubinstein
lmao, details are extremely important. there's a difference between him saying "the US wants to take over the world" and "i disagree with their military policy"
"that's because you clearly don't have the sophistocation to judge when rubato is inappropriate" Obviously I do. Since I don't use in those pieces. The two part inventions are not appropriate. In fact, in general, in Baroque music, apart where the genre itself explicitly demands it, rubato ( a word that was never used until the Romantic period) is not appropriate.
listen, smart guy, what I'm saying is that editor's comments are not relevant when it comes to playing Bach. And of course editors aren't going to write in the word "rubato"...they assume that a true musician will have the sense of when rubato is appropriate. Did you listen to the 6th partita? How could you posssibly listen to Gould and then claim that he does not use rubato?
The later the Beethoven, the further from Viennese classicism, the less these fluctations violate style and intent. I like Richter for Beethoven, Andras Schiff and Christian Zacharias for Mozart and there's always Gould for Bach
There are different sections, some arpeggiated, others strictly rythmic. Of course Bach wrote some pieces or section which were like recitatives - for free interpretation. Fantasies, Toccatas... That is explict. Rubato is implicit. That doesn't support the idea that generally his musical tempo is up for grabs. If I played his two part inventions by 'expressing' with rubato they would sound ridicilous - because that is not the kind of music they are.
Waiting for the soloist - hardly an example of rubato. You're grasping at straws. The bulk of the music is played in properly classical strict tempo which makes it quite effective, being in a march-like military style.
Have you ever heard "well-respected" musicians play Mozart quartets? Or Beethoven quartets? Or any Bach solo music? Or how about the opening of the 2nd movement of THIS Beethoven concerto? In fact, listen to Zimmerman's first phrase he plays on this video....it's not even close to being perfectly in time. Your well-respected teacher is awful if he/she tells you to play all music written from Beethoven and back metronomically. Who is this teacher anyway?
Obviosuly some passages should be played with strict timing, but what I first reacted to was your dogmatic claim that "all music of the classical period improves with strict timing" and that "rubato" is only appropriate in late romantic music and beyond. Trust me, dude, you don't want that philosophy. Schubert, Chopin -- these are early romantic composers. Surely you wouldn't argue that their music is to be played metronomically?
"pd88keys and ajnilles 1 are clearly the more experienced musicians here" Do tell. How did you come to that whopping conclusion. You don't even know that they are musicians.
"FULL of rubato. It's just idiotic to claim that Gould plays with none." Of course I know what rubato means I've played it enough. You either don't know how to count, or you dont' or you have some extreme interpretation of rubato. Rubato has everything to do with the meter. The underlying beat of the measure. If the music is in common time. You count 1, 2, 3, 4 at an appropriate tempo.
I bet, if you'd go to court and tell them you killed your neighbour because he was mowing his lawn while you were listening to this, they'd fine his family for wasting the Court's time.
First of all, if you knew what you were doing you wouldn't base ANYTHING on editors' comments in Bach and you would use Urtext. But second, how DARE you accuse Glenn Gould - a genius- of playing Bach without rubato? watch this for a minute (or more if you have the time -- it's a great performance) then get back to me.
I didn't say 'they'. The music waits..fermata or not. Your specifics are minor and hair-splitting - hence grasping. Not enough to prove the point of rubato. I'm sick to death of self-indulgent performances as though the nineteenth century was the definitive period for performance of EVERYTHING.
Oh my goodness, what a wonderfully heavy sound from the violins at 3:29.... amazing how the musikverein didn't explode from the sheer amount of musical talent possessed by both the VPO and Zimerman...
There is no word on earth who can describe how sublime this Concerto per pianoforte is.
His entry is magnificent. Articulated and in perfect tempo.
This is one of my favorite piano concerto!!!!!!!
Wow, Zimerman and Bernstein Philharmonia!!!! That's an awesome!!!!!:D
Mi piace molto l'interpretazione di Zimerman un pianista che riesce sempre a soddisfarmi.
I love the crispness of his base arpeggios and scales. Trills are perfect.
Majestuoso concierto para piano de Beethoven;
Zimerman, todo un lujo en la interrumpida entrada tras las escalas en Do menor. Sencillamente único.
Muchas gracias por subir también la 2ª parte, Tguiot.
Un saludo desde España. :-))
perfection in music is; beethoven plus zimerman and bernstein all togetherr. thanks for sharing.
beautiful beautiful!
with a wonderful conductor,,,with a great pianist and with a very good orchestra!!!
This concerto is dearest to me. Just love it. Wonderful rendition.
Todella nautittavaa musisointia sekä solisti että orkesteri. Säveltäjä on numero 1.
ooooo complimented by professionals! wow!
I will give you examples soon...but for now...notice that the last octave played by the orchestra before the piano entrance is slightly delayed (no rit. is notated) Also Zimerman's first high G is slightly delayed. (The note has a sf and it is standard practice to take some time on sforzandos.) Most importantly count the 7th bar of the piano part...it is the bar before the quiet second half of the first phrase. THERE ARE TWO FULL EXTRA BEATS!!!!!! COUNT THEM!
Actually he was student of an exceptional pianist and pedagoge prof. Andrzej Jasinski. He spent several days living in Paris in Arthur's Rubinstein invited by him and of course these days were very significant for him.......
this is my fav. concerto; bernstein and zimerman too!
Paderewski on rubato: Tempo Rubato ... is one of music's oldest friends. It is older than the romantic school, it is older than Mozart, it is older than Bach. Girolamo Frescobaldi, in the beginning of the seventeenth century, made ample use of it.... Popular instinct evolved it probably long before the first sonata was written. Expressed although nameless, it has always been in all national music."
Gould pulls tempo around a lot, at least to my ears.
Ah, he hasn't been a pupil for a long time now, and with such an interpretation he sure is a Maestro with the capital M!
Moonlight is middle period
" the early period, where he emulated great predecessors Haydn and Mozart, the middle period, where his encroaching hearing loss led to large-scale, defiantly heroic orchestral works including the famous "dun-dun-dun-dah!" Fifth Symphony, and the late period, which yielded works of immense intellectual depth from a composer who existed in a world of near-total silence. Beethoven ushered out the Classical period with the back of his hand and fathered the Romantic era"
4:03 and beyond is simply fantastic.
@schaefer1697 yes, surely he did (from the bottom of his heart i believe); when i was in high school (in china, think about it, even there), the music course we had presented bernstein as someone comparable to karajan in interpreting beethoven, certainly there are far more (even better in some way) conductors and the lessons were by no means higher than entry level, but that did make the point.
Look at Bernstein @ 7:16... what a happy man! He really loved the music.
yeah! how lovely!
passion very controlled by logic. Perfect technique.
He must do all his practicing with a metronome going in his head.
sorry the link isnt working...just search for Gould playing Bach partita 6 (e minor). Just watch the beginning of part 1 and get back to me.
Music of the classical period improves with strick observance of meter. Rubato is mostly late Romantic and later.
thanx u so much!
Frank
"It's impossible for anyone to play on time. So don't try so hard to. " I have sung and played in concert - and it's not only possible but essential.
"So you're agreeing on that meter ... IS also a variable for musicality. " I never disagreed that is was. I originally posted that rubato is not appropriate to the classical style - Mozart and earlier. Beethoven's 3rd is a mix.
He devised metronome markings because he must of thought the exact metric was important.
Well I thought so because his interpretations are very fluctuating regarding to the tempi (the 3rd movement of the Moonlight Sonata for example).
I don't share your opinion but which Beethoven Pianist do you like?
It's all relative. That's my point.
I didn't make black and white statements about Beethoven's music. It depends on how close the style is to the Classical. This concerto is clearly in the classical style.
bernstein, zimerman, y beethoven, perfecto.
Yes I've heard a lot of performances in the romantic self-indulgent style. None of them satisfy. I'm not so sure how 'respected' they are.
The second movement is truly in the Romantic vein - so your point is off target.
If you've ever played in concert you know how important keeping the time is.
"So rare to see the 3rd done so well" How true. I've searched high and low and I don't understand why so many interpretations fall short. Either too slow, too glib..not 'military' enough etc... This performance, however, almost makes the grade.
meter? meter is 2/4 or 3/4, etc. The issue here is timing. And what I am saying is stifling is the failure to recognize that timing, in any style of music (and naturally there are differences from one style to another), can be flexible.
first off, they aren't waiting for the soloist, big guy, because the delayed note has a fermata over it, so the soloist can come in whenever he wants. What you call grasping at straws is giving specific examples. There is this thing in music performance called subtlety. Rubato does not mean gross exaggeration and discarding of tempo. When you try to really make great music, every subtlety counts. And one of the most important subtleties is in timing...
Which orchestra is this? I know Bernstein conducted the New York Phil, but this looks like the concert hall of the Vienna Phil.
'taking time' means? I'm a musician trained under a well respected teacher and have never heard this expression. Rubato is inappropriate in Mozart, certainly - can hardly be excused as 'taking time'. This concerto is in the 'classical' style though Beethoven is the transition to Romantic.
How do you think the musicians stay together without strict counting? It's how the music is written. Beethoven put metronome markings for a reason.
alright, let me take a survey of some of the other students here at Juilliard and I will get back to you...I notice you didn't comment on the timing of Zimerman's first phrase of this piece...did you listen to it? You also didn't say who your teacher is. Keeping the time? Of course you want to keep a pulse, but flexibility in timing is essential.
I've listened to all the partitas by Gould.
Yet in Mozart whose paradigm was JC Bach, there is no such expectation.
From Alfred Einstein--Mozart: His Character, His Work
"...Mozart lends charm even to the mechanical. For he allows the mechanical to perform its own function, and the mechanical element is part of the very nature of the concertante style. He would have smiled at composers who demand 'expression' in every note. As those rubato players whose left hand 'always follows suit'..."
"listen, smart guy, what I'm saying is that editor's comments are not relevant when it comes to playing Bach."
If you can make the leap from the editorial concensus to a traditon of perfomance - they are definitely relevant when taken as a whole.
"First of all, if you knew what you were doing you wouldn't base ANYTHING on editors' comments "
I'm basing it on ALL editors comments - the conspicuous lack of that expressive mark - is significant as a performance tradition. Not to mention the performances themselves.
If you prefer to use the word 'tempo' instead of meter, fine. It's a little late to be making that point.
me·ter2 /ˈmitər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mee-ter] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
--noun 1. Music. a. the rhythmic element as measured by division into parts of equal time value.
b. the unit of measurement, in terms of number of beats, adopted for a given piece of music. Compare measure (def. 14).
so so...he's not bad...He's an accomplished pianist - but there's a kind of madness, a 'diabolique' in Beethoven that the centuries of culture have mellowed and whose softening Barenboim represents.
It's dangerous when great masters become 'comfortable' to our sensibilities.
Is the Vienna Philharmonic? Because I notice the Viennese oboes...
@Bl00DN00B
He IS Polish.
Even though he may look like one of the three musketeers he is the sort of pianist I admire because his playing has real depth and colour, very poetic and lyrical in the same style as Perahia and Lupu. I can't bear those pianists who have brilliant technique but no colour or variety of tone in their playing.
"Rubato and "meter-warping" is a critical part to making music, music. "
You confuse 'rubato' with 'espressivo'. There are other variables besides meter.
This is the conventional periodization of Beethoven, but I don't agree with it. The Middle Period is supposed to start with the Eroica (1803), but for my money, the Pathetique (1797) is solidly middle-period and even in Op 2 no 1 he is definitely already his own man. At the other end, the
8th symphony looks back to the 18th century, & I would also put the op.126 Bagatelles in the middle period stylistically. BTW Gould uses lots of rubato in Bach & it sounds authentic. Or good, anyway.
"Good luck finding any music written by Bach without rubato"
Easy. I play such continually. The expressive marking rubato is never added by any editor. Of all composers Bach is the most demanding of strict meter. Have you heard of Glenn Gould?
When was this recorded?
Absolutely:D Heck, I'd play Bach romantically if I could get away with it.
I'm very familiar with Gould. His performances for the most part are strictly metric.
No, there's not a lot of rubato in Gould's Bach. At least not from what I know. :)
Perhaps Bernstein didn't have a really good technique but knew how to trasmit Beethoven's emotions. I think that Zimmerman plays this concerto in a wild way. I prefer it with Rubinstein
can i see that version on youtube??
if you think that the opening of partita 6 is metronomic, then you have some serious issues.
Bernstein and WienerPhilharmoker fanstastic.
Tguiot posted another version (Abbado- Brendel) I prefer Brendel .
What nationality is Zimmerman? :)
i will respond to all of your comments once you tell me that you have listened to partita 6 by Gould
which orchestra is this one?
"But second, how DARE you accuse Glenn Gould - a genius- of playing Bach without rubato?" It's hardly an accusation - its a compliment.
was it VPO?
he is
Is it just me, or is there a lag between the audio and video...?
He looks like one of the Three musketeers!!
lmao, details are extremely important. there's a difference between him saying "the US wants to take over the world" and "i disagree with their military policy"
"that's because you clearly don't have the sophistocation to judge when rubato is inappropriate"
Obviously I do. Since I don't use in those pieces. The two part inventions are not appropriate. In fact, in general, in Baroque music, apart where the genre itself explicitly demands it, rubato ( a word that was never used until the Romantic period) is not appropriate.
How did you manage that one? hahahah
Yes baroque was improvisational. But you infer that means rubato. NOT. Where is that word used in any of your quotes.
I guess you don't like Barenboim playin Beethoden Sonatas, right thethikboy?
listen, smart guy, what I'm saying is that editor's comments are not relevant when it comes to playing Bach. And of course editors aren't going to write in the word "rubato"...they assume that a true musician will have the sense of when rubato is appropriate. Did you listen to the 6th partita? How could you posssibly listen to Gould and then claim that he does not use rubato?
Misinterpretation of the Facts.
Just because you have trouble keeping the beat doesn't make those who play by strict meter junior.
I can listen to Gould with a metronome easy. Doesn't skip a beat.
typical zimerman aggressive but not too much, nice tempi
The later the Beethoven, the further from Viennese classicism, the less these fluctations violate style and intent.
I like Richter for Beethoven, Andras Schiff and Christian Zacharias for Mozart
and there's always Gould for Bach
I used the term 'metric' as in counting the beats, which is precisely what meter is , as opposed to rhythm. Your semantics are hair-splitting.
There are different sections, some arpeggiated, others strictly rythmic. Of course Bach wrote some pieces or section which were like recitatives - for free interpretation. Fantasies, Toccatas...
That is explict. Rubato is implicit.
That doesn't support the idea that generally his musical tempo is up for grabs.
If I played his two part inventions by 'expressing' with rubato they would sound ridicilous - because that is not the kind of music they are.
Nobody has called me a rotten performer. And I do my best to play music within its period. Viennese classicism has a low tolerance for prima donas.
i agree. i also prefer gould's version to this
thikboy, try playing any piece the whole way through with a metronome and tell me you don't feel the urge to use rubato at least once...
Waiting for the soloist - hardly an example of rubato.
You're grasping at straws. The bulk of the music is played in properly classical strict tempo which makes it quite effective, being in a march-like military style.
this was supposed to come first....:
"Gould uses lots of rubato in Bach"
False
I think that's a little different than what he actually said-
yes i think so... recorded by deutsch gramophon
Have you ever heard "well-respected" musicians play Mozart quartets? Or Beethoven quartets? Or any Bach solo music? Or how about the opening of the 2nd movement of THIS Beethoven concerto? In fact, listen to Zimmerman's first phrase he plays on this video....it's not even close to being perfectly in time. Your well-respected teacher is awful if he/she tells you to play all music written from Beethoven and back metronomically. Who is this teacher anyway?
Zimmerman's first phrase can easily be counted. Quite strictly metric.
Obviosuly some passages should be played with strict timing, but what I first reacted to was your dogmatic claim that "all music of the classical period improves with strict timing" and that "rubato" is only appropriate in late romantic music and beyond. Trust me, dude, you don't want that philosophy. Schubert, Chopin -- these are early romantic composers. Surely you wouldn't argue that their music is to be played metronomically?
who the hell dislikes this?!??!?!
"pd88keys and ajnilles 1 are clearly the more experienced musicians here" Do tell. How did you come to that whopping conclusion. You don't even know that they are musicians.
Any idiot can rant. But I've yet to hear anybody play stylistically correct classical with rubato. Examples please.
"FULL of rubato. It's just idiotic to claim that Gould plays with none."
Of course I know what rubato means I've played it enough.
You either don't know how to count, or you dont' or you have some extreme interpretation of rubato.
Rubato has everything to do with the meter. The underlying beat of the measure. If the music is in common time. You count 1, 2, 3, 4 at an appropriate tempo.
I bet, if you'd go to court and tell them you killed your neighbour because he was mowing his lawn while you were listening to this, they'd fine his family for wasting the Court's time.
I think your ears missed rest of them .
know nothing amateurs? knowing you exist beethoven mozart and bach would all turn over in their graves
First of all, if you knew what you were doing you wouldn't base ANYTHING on editors' comments in Bach and you would use Urtext. But second, how DARE you accuse Glenn Gould - a genius- of playing Bach without rubato? watch this for a minute (or more if you have the time -- it's a great performance) then get back to me.
Millions of people are watching clips of nonsense, but only 115 925 people watching so it is entirely a work of immense labor, disrespect, too bad.
Better than being insulted by no-nothing amateurs.
'a lot' of rubato means you don't know the meaning of the word.
I didn't say 'they'. The music waits..fermata or not. Your specifics are minor and hair-splitting - hence grasping. Not enough to prove the point of rubato. I'm sick to death of self-indulgent performances as though the nineteenth century was the definitive period for performance of EVERYTHING.