Phase 1 definitely was and Phase 3 wasnt all directly connected but it had a through line that kept things feeling like they were building towards infinity war with all the pieces falling into place. I agree that phase 2 had no direction and was essentially throwing shit at a wall to see what would stick, similar to phase 4.
The thing is, a lot of those movies weren't nearly as grandiose as the MCU is now. It's less noticeable if you have a few loosely connected, ground level stories being told (not to mention it was less output than compared to now).
Post credits scenes featuring Skrulls 1. WandaVision 2. Far From Home 3. Ms Marvel 4. Hawkeye 5. Ant-Man 3 6. Falcon and Winter Soldier 7. Wakanda Forever Seeing Secret Invasion(highly recommend Nando v Movies' Rewrite), this would have worked on so many levels and paid off so much later
I want another season or movie of Daredevil where he's the last hero of NY after everyone got dusted. Kingpin survived the Blip and is rebuilding his empire. It would be amazing
I really love how Dan has gone from the newbie "intern", to holding his own in these discussions and both Benny and Sal give him the adult fan respect (Benny actually stops himself and lets Dan talk/finish his thought, a lot more than he did last year.). It's been so incredible seeing him grow into a confident host, see Benny not need to please everyone as much, and see Sal soften up on some of his hardline stances(not change his mind, just be more willing to engage the discussions).
Can you IMAGINE the uproar if the "New Avengers" a bunch of women and POC even SYMBOLICALLY beat the original Avengers on screen??? The internet would explode. LOL
So this is going to be a little bit of a warning… I don’t have a lot of people to discuss this topic with so I have a lot to discuss about and since this video is pretty long I guess it would make sense to have a very long comment. The only thing that kind of rubbed me wrong in Captain Marvel was the fact that marvel decided to turn the Skrulls into sympathetic refugees. In the comics they were a warmongering tactician alien race that stood on nearly equal grounds with the Kree empire. But in the movie they made Kree this evil empire that was constantly having their foot on the Skrull’s neck, just because they wouldn’t pledge loyalty to their empire. The result was they were more sympathetic than their comic counterparts. Which is why I find secret invasions a very confusing concept considering that they were never portrayed as being the type to try to invade earth. Sure under Fury’s authority they may integrate with the population to better keep tabs on possible threats. Even at the end of Spider-Man far from home it was implied that Nick fury gave them a purpose and possibly created the MCU is equivalent of S.W.O.R.D. The only way I think it will work out is that there’s actually a divide between Skrulls. I seriously doubt the ones that are working with Nick fury have any ill agenda as there trying to enact. So there’s a good chance the secret invasion could actually be a Civil War. Between the more peaceful Skrulls lead by nick fury….And Skrulls Who are tired of having to have everything they had taken away and they feel that humanity doesn’t deserve the planet… which is kind of similar to the actual secret invasion story plot in the comic books….give or take. I’m not sure if you heard about this but I was reading an article saying that because the Eternals was so terrible that Marvel is deciding to Redcon the whole story by taking the remains of the sleeping celestial that’s somehow not being talked about by everyone on the planet. And it’s going to have a new name…. And rumors say it’s going to be renamed “Krakoa”….. so yes they’re trying to possibly bring the X-Men into the MCU. In fact there has been some leaked rumors about the script for the thunderbolts movie which implies that their mission is to go to the celestial body to retrieve a material described as Adamantium. Now originally I was excited about the possibility of the X-Men and mutants in general being added to the MCU but seeing how they’re kind of shoehorning into the universe in a very sloppy way. I mean with the last episode of Ms. Marvel they completely Redcon her origin because inhumans weren’t popular so they just baited her as a mutant. And even Namor is a mutant. So that alone we already have two basically official mutants in the MCU. But I feel like they’re going to screw this up by just telling people “oh this character was a mutant all along.” Plus there’s rumors that the mutants are most likely going to be more like the current Jonathan Hickman x-Men. Which they would need to do a lot of TV shows and movies to better paste the information but we know how Marvel/Disney, work… they’ll just throw some Vaseline and force it in as hard as they can to make it fit!…lol Honestly one of my predictions for the conclusion or the aftermath of endgame was that even with the infinity gauntlet they could never truly put everything back the way it was. Which from what I heard was kind of touched upon in Loki. And possibly further in Multiverse of madness. The fact that you can’t truly bring back half the life in the universe without paying a cost. The only repercussion that occurred was in eternals…. Which the reemerging of life on earth initiated the awakening of the celestial inside the planet. But for me I was thinking more like it could’ve been an opportunity to introduce mutants. People coming back would start realizing they have weird abilities that they didn’t have before the snap. Or individuals who are never originally part of the main reality may have found themselves in the MCU…. Which could be the reason why Deadpool is being introduced. The problem is the ideas that make sense and would be entertaining are never used. Instead we get these nonsensical, unfocused and confusing injections of content that doesn’t fit. And you’re right the whole idea of them basically trying to change the entire hero scape, is kind of hurting the MCU. One of my favorite examples that explains the multi-verse is ironically found in an animated DC film. It was said that the multi-verse is created by the events of one action that can diverge into two actions…. One where you did something… and one way you didn’t. That’s why when they were talking about the Multiverse I instantly thought of a way to bring back Scarlett Johansson. Because by that logic it would mean during the event when Natasha and Barton were trying to decide who would sacrifice themselves for the soul stone… it would most likely play out like it did except it would be Barton who was successful in sacrificing himself and not Natasha. Which could lead to some good storytelling revealing Natasha who is going through a similar thing as Barton….. where she goes to an emotional breakdown feeling that she was the one that deserves to die not him. Which can lead to her alienating herself not just from the avengers but from Barton family being unable to look at them in the face. Imagine what would happen during the events of secret wars where Barton comes in contact with Natasha from another reality. Both looking at each other for the first time and seeing that the other is still alive. Even if it’s another reality the fact that the other is still alive may be a great emotional release for both of them. Because both of them would be carrying a heavy weight of survival guilt and instead of fighting they may find themselves shedding tears and giving each other a hug instead because they’re just so happy to see the others still alive. That would be emotional storytelling in its best form…. And the viewers would probably be crying as well because they have been watching these characters suffer for so long. But as you said Disney kind of burn your bridges with Scarlett Johansson so it’s very unlikely unless they really beg her….lol
One additional reason it feels so unhyped is because now the time between individual direct sequels is getting longer and longer while also having the most amount of content. Thor, Iron Man and Captain America all had like 2-3years between sequels but now Shang Chi 2 is like half a decade in future but I also have to watch other things to get the full story. Ms Marvel S2 isn't just that but also a sequel to Marvels which is also Captain Marvel 2.
I think the biggest problem is that they aren't sure how to recapture the wonder of the Infinity Saga, so they're just sort of throwing everything at the wall.
I agree with Dan. Phase 4 is essentially Phase 1 of the new saga. The best way to describe it is when you watch a show and Season 1 is fantastic. Wraps up all the big storylines. Season 2 comes out and starts out FEELING slow because you have to reestablish the important plot points for Season 2. Phase 4 established new characters that will show up in movies, portraying the multiverse and showing different characters in other realities but also showing a sliver of the consequences of universe hopping. Just like how a Season 2 could start off with the appearance there's no direction, the further you get into the season you'll realize what they were setting up. I can understand MCU fans not feeling hype because we're back to the building phase instead of the payoff phase. I think Ant Man will be the movies to kick things in high gear.
@@thomasjohnson1885 I think Fiege didn't set MCU fans expectations correctly. Fiege already said not every character you see in this Phase will be in Secret Wars. There will be a street level team, an earth level team, and a cosmic team. Fiege is just planting the terminology and characters so when Phase 5 & 6 (hopefully) pop off, we don't need to provide exposition.
@@thomasjohnson1885 good is subjective so that's not worth a discussion BUT Phase 4 is introducing characters and it does need a set up. It's an entirely new saga.
The problem that I see is that everyone is wanting to skip ahead instead of just enjoying the fact that Marvel is at a place where they can experiment with genres and introducing all of these new characters. Nobody was whining about "where are we going" in Phase 1 because we were just on the ride. The problem isn't Marvel, it's we the audience being impatient and unreasonable and wanting EVERY piece of content put out by Marvel to be this massive earth shattering blatantly interconnected event. This is my problem with the DC films which is that they do exactly what the audience wants them to do and they are failing because of it. Marvel knows the importance of building up and not rushing to get to the end game. But that's just my 2 cents.
Yeah these guys should know better considering how knowledgeable they are. People need to calm tf down. I've had my problems in regards to the QUALITY of the projects which is where most of the concern should be. I trust Feige to have a plan.
I understand where y'all are coming from and I do agree the fans need to chill but you have to admit the writing for the last 2 movies and shows is pretty bad.
Agreed its the “fans” and I mean the gen pop that become comic book nerds because D+ is in their house. So they came in at a time that they saw big this and that. We are in a second Phase 1, new characters that have to be introduced in layers this time.
No, you don't go from consistently having a plan to just not having one, that isn't on the fans it's on the company, and trying new things doesn't have to happen at the expense of an actual overarching storyline they're not mutually exclusive
@@ProducedByMERC there doesn’t always need to be an overarching plot for you to point at and look forward to just like how all the older movies like blade Spider-Man or X-men didn’t have a plot that went 5 movies ahead
You can use your argument for almost the majority of the MCU movies, how did iron man 2 lead to infinity war, how did captain America 2 lead to infinity war
It surprises that in your guys advanced media literacy skills that you don't see what this Phase was ... When we were literally told: "Phase 4 is about dealing with the aftermath of EndGame" Kevin Fiege said this. While I definitely agree this is the weekest phase , let's not ignore information.
I feel like you guys are making a few good points but for the most part it seems like you are upset for not being able to see the full picture before the full picture's* been drawn.
Or they're just upset because the movies are executing the same issues the comics have: doing too much at once and trying to guilt/bait the viewer into consuming all of it to keep up with the big event it's leading to
The biggest problem with phase 4 is it’s too much, they went from one thread linking all the movies to 10 different threads linking different projects and so on, what they should’ve done that would’ve expanded the universe and at the same time kept things streamlined is have three plot lines Cosmic Stuff which could build to Anihulus, Street Level stuff which could lead to some gang war between Kingpin and the street level heroes, and Avengers stuff which deals with the blip and then eventually all three crossover with a scaled up version of Secret Invasion.
@@ryice944 no, they’re doing too much of that Shang Chi leads into She Hulk which leads into Cap 4 which was lead into by Fatws, meanwhile Secret Invasion leads to armor wars and maybe The Marvels which is lead into by Ms Marvel, The externals leads to cosmic stuff but also blade for some reason, Hawkeye and NWH and She Hulk all lead into daredevil, and it just keeps going. For every one plot line that gets wrapped up ten more appear and there isn’t one event that looks like it will clean everything up. What they should’ve done is had all of the cosmic properties have a single through line, Annihulus is coming, that section of the universe should then stay separate from the rest for a while, then they have the street level properties with one through line a gang war with kingpin, then the sort of avengers not quite street level not quite cosmic stuff which leads into secret invasion and then after secret invasion have the events of it directly create the thunderbolts.Then eventually have all three corners cross over for secret wars.
@@mrbatman3008 eternals lead to dark knight and blade (supernatural stuff) She-hulk teased hulk it didn't lead to anything (teased hulk in space) Wanda vision lead to doctor strange Ms marvel lead into more space stuff Shang chi leads to ??? Falcon the winter soldier and Hawkeye leads to thunderbolts & echo/deardevil (Street level stuff but not quite since ghost in on the team) Oh yh loki lead into time travel stuff and ant-man They said you get to pick which type of story you want now that's why their was so much stuff pushed out it all was for different stuff
They were just kinda spinning their wheels trying to figure out what they were gonna do throughout the whole phase. It lacked vision figuratively and literally. At least that's what it looked like.
I think people were expecting Phase 4 to be Phase 3, but bigger. What they are actually doing is Phase 1, but bigger. This is good, IMO. It means that we're building to something better than IW/Endgame. It also is providing a new stepping in point for people who haven't followed the MCU thus far (like my kids who are still a bit young for PG-13).
You guys are overreacting. Ya'll read comics, has it ever worried ya'll that a Daredevil storyline wouldn't cross over into the next highly anticipated Avengers crossover? Or that a few X-Men comics would be building up something that's self contained? No. Its FINE to not have everything connect. We should honestly be more worried about the overall quality of projects rather than what the plan is, considering Feige is stretched thin and already running into production issues. I'm reserving doubts until I see Wakanda Forever and Quantumania, until then all this talk is absolute moot, especially considering what we've heard and seen from those two projects is already dispelling some concerns in regards to "lack of connectivity".
Phase 4 does feel disjointed but personally, after the epicness of the Infinity saga, I feel like Marvel has earned my trust. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt right now because who knows, maybe in 5 years we'll look back at phase 4 and go "ooohhhh, so that's what they were doing".
This is likely lol. I think Dan is right. This is like phase 1 B. I think we’re spoiled with just have gotten out of the infinity saga and everything we’ve seen in those phases. IMO.
I honestly don’t understand your complaints about everything not being connected and every project not leading directly to “Secret Wars”. Why do they have to connect? Ant Man, Iron Man 1,2 and 3, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, Doctor Strange, Incredible Hulk and Avengers: Age of Ultron didn’t directly connect to Infinity Wars & Endgame. Does that mean that they shouldn’t have existed? Not everything has to be interconnected and hint at incursions or Kang. That’s now what it’s like in the comics. In the comics the could be a big Marvel event happening, but in Spider-Man’s solo comics that event doesn’t get mentioned. I don’t see the problem with a lot of the movies/shows being in their own personal bubble. That means that as a casual viewer, you can skip most of them and not feel intimidated when you walk into the BIG movies like Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars.
21:02 I agree with that wholeheartedly. Secret invasion could have been it's own phase. A bunch of those event comics from back then really did weave into eachother well. Secret invasion dark reign and seige . Bunch of gold in there were not touching
At this point, thanks to ms marvel, I’m pretty sure Shang Chi is more likely to directly tie in to the upcoming Captain Marvel movie rather than Secret Wars.
Dan's idea of making the Ten Rings draw on multiverse energy and "The signal reversed" gave me literal chills, that would be so freakin cool and spooky and full of hype
It goes both ways. It all depends on how well they pull from everything that came before in the disparate stories across Phase 4 and 5 to make what is a hopefully cohesive throughline in Phase 6. They may have peppered a bunch of random stuff to see what people have been gelling with, but now that we know there is a plan in place, now they can go back and grab from all the dead ends and setups for things that don't feel like they are going anywhere, and then crafting a narrative that could be perceived as being all part of the plan while also more deliberately setting things up in some more soon to be released projects.
That... actually would be a pretty interesting way to slowly mature the MCU tbh. Currently, FATWS is the only thing (outside of Hawkeye sorta) that's actively dealt with the ramifications of Blip the whole way through.
Shang Chi post credit matters if it’s connected to Kang’s tech which is seems like it is haha - so at least for now - but also Bruce’s sling is from the car crash in She Hulk
🙄 this was a test Phase, to try new things and see what stuck and what didn't. Stuck: - Shang Chi - Magic storytelling - Ensemble casts - Marvel Special Presentations - Storyies with plots unrelated to the 616 MCU - MCU shows being where we explore diverse character stories Didn't stick: - art house film takes on Marvel characters ( it's a shame) - sticking to the formula to closely
I really enjoy your guys' rant!!! The pitch for Secret Invasion and for Black Widow was great!!! Those concepts were so much more better than what we got. What a loss of opportunities to keep fans invested more. You're right, the multiverse incursion should of started with Black Widow, that would of been cool to have her in another universe. In Far From Home, I wish they would of leaned in more with the Skrulls in general.
@@lewisbaldwin9683 yes and even so, when referring to the post credits the only thing I've heard people mention is Clea. My point is that despite how much the movie attempts to introduce incursions to us, I feel like it didn't stick with the audience as much as they would've wanted. This could just be my personal bubble, but I didn't hear discussions on the movie reference incursions with any of the same reverence that fans used to talk about infinity stones. If anyone mentioned them, it was usually a long the lines of "oh yea I guess secretwars is coming" and now that we officially know that, there isn't much else there
@@gamemasterbob9 back in phase 1 no one was talking about infinity stones, it wasn’t until phase 2 where it was actively being talked about. This means that the idea of incursions have been introduced and can then be expanded in phase 5
We knew at the end of Ironman 1 that the Avengers was the plan. We just thought Avengers was the movie being built to and not that it was the first part in a quadrilogy of Avengers movies.
Eh I’m fine with things not being connected at the mo. The only real gripe I have with phase 4 was the lack of the blip. I think having the blip being the main focus of phase 4 could have worked wonders. For example, wandavision, Spider-Man FFH, FATWS all deal with the blip quite well. We could have had even more like if Ms. Marvel was blipped and her parents are against superhero’s because they failed to stop thanks initially. Or Kate was blipped and she has to deal with her mother being distant because she’s already grieved and moved on. Or the eternals talking about how much humanity changed during the 5 years. Or shehulk having a superhero client who was blipped and trying to get rent money. So much could have been done and it was glossed over
The "problem" with Phase 4 was 1. COVID-19 2. "Fans" want action, easter eggs and cameos. They don't understand that you can have stand alone projects and still be interconnected. The Infinity Saga was a film version of a comic book crossover event. That was done to start the MCU. 3. Auture related projects such as Moonknight, Wandavision, Werewolf by Night and Ms Marvel 4. Not everything has to be a lead up to a "big bad". Not everything show has to have a reference to every other film That's not how comic books work.
I like the title House of Harkness much better than Coven of Chaos. Coven of Chaos sounds like it’s trying to leach off of Multiverse of Madness. Idk why they changed it???
Truth be told. Phase 4 feels like the fallout of not having a face for the mcu. So ot kinda created a vacuum to throw things against the wall and see what sticks
Oh wow I didnt even know this was you guys, I could have been watching this the whole time lol. Also where is Andy?? those round table chats on your other channel where you talk comic stuff were the best!! I think a big part of 'Phase 4' feeling so aimless and less of a second 'Phase 1' is that in phase 1 easter eggs, like caps sheild in Iron Mans workshop, or even the infinity gauntlet being shown, were so out there everyone was thinking "oh thats so cool, but theres no way theyll actually follow through on that...will they? nah no way", where as now its an expectation that even the tiniest easter egg will get its own 10yr movie arch. Agatha gets her own spin off show, they say the word 'engineer' in WandaVision and everyone expects Reed or Adam Bashir to cameo. The MCU is no longer a collection of movies that fan boys can get hyped over because of how they interconnect in cool unexpected ways, the MCU is its own beast now, and its a BEAST. Marvel is trying to homogenise it with the comics, and the tone across movies, while at the same time trying to milk it to oblivion like Star Wars, the two just cant mix. The MCU should be allowed to be a seperate thing from the comics, and the MCU should be allowed to diversify into different genres and styles, like Dan says let people find the heros that appeal and relate to them. Personally I think they should have featured Carol more in 'Phase 4', despite the negative media, feature her like Wong is getting featured. But make her cameos "normal Carol" cameos, instead of blasting planets in half shes appearing as a Military Captian organising clean up after tidal wave devistation from Tiamut, Shes walking home with shopping bags in Hawkeye's big finale "oh you need some help there Arrow guy?" "nah I got this" "yeah ok, I like how you have a sidekick now thats so cool" "not my sidekick." etc. Just quick cameos that show her being more than just an OP planet killer + a through line into the next Phase.
the problem with phase 4 is no one cares about the movies they are watching, they only care about what's next. From a structural stand point is the Secret Wars Multi Verse storyline is just about introduce a LOT of new characters.
I kinda see it as the comics now or like how Dan said it’s like phase one. It’s not all connected, you can just watch what you want and some are setting stuff up. MoM, Loki and Spider-Man all talk about the multiverse and have that throughline. It’s like reading Hickmans avengers and complaining that squirrel girl doesn’t connect. Not trying to be rude I just feel like they’re not focused on connecting stuff so it’s not that big a deal
Like phase 4 has flaws but if anything I like that theyre keeping things separate and focus on letting people tell good stories (most of the time with varying results)
I feel like phase 5 should take inspiration from agent of shield season 4 where the season was split into 3 arcs. Phase 5 should be 2 arcs :one arc that focus one kang(with disney +shows tie to it) and the other arc should be secret invasion (with disney +show tied to it)
First off great video! I agree with some of the points brought up in this video. But honestly watching this and many otger videos this week on comic fandom ig...made me wonder, what happened to fans being excited for things they know they like? Recently being a fan of the IP's I like has been very hard. It just seems like everywhere I go or turn, everything I like is getting needlessly criticized by people I support who claim to love the same stuff. And the criticisms mostly range from miniscual to baseless. And that everything has to be PITCH PERFECT or EXACTLY the way any individual wanted it to be, in order for if to even be considered passable. I personally feel the most satisfied as fan of BOTH marvel and DC in the last 2 years. Everyone is bitching about the cancellation of ONE DC project or theyre upset because marvel doesn't want to make all their plans known rn. Can we be excited as fan of DC that they finally have Leadership and a plan and that both Batman and Superman are back. Can we be excited as marvel fans that all 3 spidermen, hugh jackman, charlie cox, vincent dnofrio, and patrick stewart have fall been back! And that we have finally know for sure who they next thanos is and that we're getting a GOOD F4 movie. Lets focus on that lol.
it feels like the Marvel cinematic universe has put a spot light on the problem the comics have. there are lots of characters that don"t really have a relationship with one another. this would be fine if they were not all supposed to be part of teams and communities. I cannot imagine Captain America ever hanging out with Iron man.
I hate the fact we're getting a solo Kraven thing. I wanted him to be the next Spidey villain as a scale down from No Way Home. Just Spidey being hunted by Kraven, no end of the world stakes, just solid Spidey action with a villain I feel is strong enough to play off of Spidey, but not strong enough to solo movie himself. I have a feeling he'll morb out, and people will celebrate not watching it.
I don’t care if they’re interconnected or not. Phase 4 should have been a standalone director driven character focused phase but they want their cake and eat it too, set up and do these standalone things that don’t matter, they want people to watch for nostalgia but also care about somothing new. The bigger problem is the quality is mediocre at best, I don’t think they need to try and they know it it’s how you get Taika making Thor 4, She Hulk writers saying they can’t write courtroom scenes. People don’t care because “It’s like phase 1” no it’s not phase one wasn’t perfect but they tried hard to make it work because they were hungry and desperate now they’re lazy and can do whatever.
You know what I like is that people like tons of people on TH-cam and I've even seen a couple things on like Reddit who have better ideas for how the MCU can play out but could have happened but should have happened and what can happen and they can all do it better than people who get paid to make The stories that go into the big screens this is really just embarrassing for marvel at this point and I love marvel but they fell off story-wise I like it when everything connects I don't care people say I like that and if people can't understand that then screw them
I get Dan's season one comparison and I get the idea he's trying to put forward. But I think it falls apart when you consider that this "Season One" is longer than the entirety of the three seasons that came before combined. And while it's great to introduce new characters. It fall flat if there's no point to them. Sam Wilson - Captain America and Sylvie are the only two characters that feel like there's a point to them existing. That's the issue I ultimately feel. The sheer length of it without any real direction except for a handful of projects (Loki and Strange). That's an issue. It's fine to have stand alone franchise, but it just seems like we're at a standfull.
16:01 incursions is the big bad but that doesn't mean everything has to be about that or that is the only thing everything is leading towards.....wandavision, loki, NWH and Multiverse of Madness are directly leading towards incursions and secret wars but.... rest of the projects like black widow, Falcon&WS, Hawkeye, Captain america are leading to Thunderbolts Projects like Loki, Ant-man, Loki 2 and maybe other future projects will lead to KANG Black knight, Moon Knight, Warewolf and Blade would have their own little supernatural event AND these all smaller events lead to the Big Event i.e. Secret Wars and thus everything becomes important Its not just incursions and Secret Wars.....i think Marvel has gone too big but i believe eventually, when all the pieces will start fitting into places it will become much clearer And this is not new.....Infinity saga wasnt just leading to Infinity War/Endgame they were leading to smaller events as well like Avengers initiative, Ultron, Civil War.....but they were very linear and they all had Avengers in their name which made it very simple......Now, Marvel doesn't need to do simple because they have already showed us how it works.....Ironman 3 was leading to Ultron, Thor 2 was about introducing an infinity stone, Winter soldier was leading to less Ultron and more towards Civil War, Guardians introduced another Infinity Stone and what Thanos was planning, its all already established and its nothing new but they forget most nerds are dumb and very few look at what Marvel is doing because they are blinded by what they want Marvel to do.....and thats the biggest problem.... NO ONE TRIES TO LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE DOING.....its Marvel's fault to trust their audience about the big picture....they need to drop all this fantastic events and make everything about one event Just imagine if every Infinity Saga was all about Infinity war and endgame only.....nothing else, no other events, no storylines that aren't related to infinity stones......it would have sucked
Wandavision introduced nexus beings and started using some of the first references to a multiverse . Which again was further explored in doctor strange with us actually going through the nylticerse fighting other teams. And that in turn taught us about incursions . Which as you guys know is the whole trigger behind secret wars. So it all builds up pretty well lol. A better example to illustrate no interconnectivity would have been moon knight. Moon knight is pretty damn stand alone and only really helped to establish lore on the after lives in the MCU.
The original idea for the disney+ shows was you didnt have to watch them though. I think thats why Falcon and Winter soldier was the way it was but then they did start with Wandavision which you do kind of need to watch for MoM so yeah idk. They just messed up
The contempt for MCU movies is the same type of contempt for comics. The comic story makers (print and screen) have to sacrifice story and deep world building to appeal to the masses with flash and spectacle. The overall product then comes off as less organic then what came before comics went mainstream and the MCU blew up.
Telling a story about a multiverse doesnt quite work nor fits in a perfect 6 movies per phase like the phase 1,3, and 3*. Phase 4 is just too much of nothing and the de-powering of our favorites and then coalescing to something. The main phase 4 movies dont lead to anywhere and the TV shows doesnt seem to lead to anything either.
They are trying to do too much at once. As you mentioned Secret Invasion could be a big threat. The Eternals and the celestials could be a thanos level threat. Blade and vampires being in the MCU could also be a huge deal that brings multiple heroes together. There are so many events that they are minimizing. What I do like tho is that they are not jumping at the X-men just yet bc if they did it would’ve been a serious mess. They’re planning something huge for them which I like because X-men are arguably Marvel’s biggest and most expansive property.
Another reason this is less exciting is that a lot of new characters are derivatives of old characters. Here's Patriot, US Agent and a new falcon oh Sam is the new Cap and Russia had a their own Cap. Here is a new Black Widow, new Hulk and Hulk Junior, new Hawkeye, new Black panther, New Iron man, girl Loki, two new Captain Marvel protege's, another Thor. That is a lot of retreading or repackaging to take in with few new powersets or skills, on that front you have Taskmaster, Moon knight, Shang Chi, the Eternals, America Chavez and I guess Namor. Two of those are villains, one was a sidekick and the other was an ensemble .Phase four could have used another debut original hero to connect to.
Just like superman or the justice league you need a big enough threat or event for them to show up in the first place otherwise why didn't you use a less powerful character.
Even though most Marvel movies have always been mid (yes ,even pre Phase Four movies were mid), I at least like that they're more experimental now. I hate the idea that every Marvel movie passes the buck to the next project, and now that we're much more loosely connected I'm enjoying it more. I think Phase Four is actually better than Phases 1+2, but just more inconsistent than Phase 3.
How will Secret Invasion even be good if no one we care about will be Skrulls in a side piece Tv show? Like we know major Avengers won't take part, no side characters are even teased as Skrulls. The show won't be anything major
Kind of figured he'd be over it by now since it's about to end in a couple of days.😅 overall I liked face for for the most part, at least more than phase 2, I didn't watch all of it because there's just a bunch I don't care for like Black Widow, the eternals , and moon night, but I liked it. I do still think the shows shouldn't have been included as phases no matter how big or small they are and should have been treated like their own things, like the Netflix shows before Kevin feige vs Ike Palmer happened, and it's a little cluttered with how much comes out in a year because of it, but maybe they just don't want to wait another 10 years before King and Secret Wars.
Captain Marvel by itself could have been Secret Invasion . I don't mine it being. Show but Sal is right the end credit scene should have been someone on the MCU is a Skrull and we keep learning who it is.
Dan is right, we are back to phase 1 to build new characters up but after just having endgame....everything seems boring and meh these suck. Having to rebuild the roster isn't making for a very exciting list of movies.
@@Peecamarke he also, broke a criminal out of prison, did not understand how law works, became a fugitive from the USA and called on She-Hulk to help with a supernatural incursion that he could have fwarted on his own. So yeah, this Wong is a moron.
Dude, the patience is at an all time low. Everyone is expecting Infinity War and Endgame material every damn time now. PHASE 4 is just a detour to the new direction of the grand story arc for the MCU. Don’t like it? Don’t watch it. I guarantee that there’s a big payoff just like in the Infinity Saga.
Feel like phase 4 should of focused on the blip. -Black Widow- takes place before Endgame so we see what life was like after the snap. Would have made it way more interesting -Eternals- focus on the secret history of the mcu through them and how the snap affected things on a cosmic scale -Shang-Chi- okay I am convinced that the Rings are connected to Kang who got them via Celestial/Eternal tech and we actually honor the name of the film the legend of the 19 rings. I would rather see an adoption of the master of king fu battleworld comic where he fights the Mandarin to be the leader of the various martial arts schools and holder of the 10 rings with the same plot as the movie minus the cgi 3rd act and more on actual martial arts. Dr. Strange: be based off the comic the oath and on strange and wong's friendship and Wong as the sorcerer Supreme Thor love and thunder: the asguardians adjusting to life on Earth and more of Gorr butchering gods and how the blip affected faith and religion in the universe -Wandavision- while pretty great probably where we should have seen Man-thing and talked about Nexus points and have an appearance by strange -loki should introduce America Chavez -Falcon and the Winter Soldier: while a poorly executed show due to the pandemic I think it had the right idea - ms. Marvel- still focusing on the little people affected by the blip and just being a street level hero -she-hulk- slice of life but more building up past events in a more meaningful manner. Like they wanted to do the Leader but couldn't. More with Abomination. Should of had the great lake Avengers instead of the silly Mr. Immortal plot, and discussing suing over their name. She-hulk caused plenty of damage in episode 8 that should of been discussed, along with damage control and what the government thinks of hulks. -Moon knight- should lead to events in Thor love and Thunder and tie into shang chi with Egyptian Gods and hint at Kang as Rama-tut and the role he played to getting his power from the ennead Werewolf by night- moon knight is being hunted for the Bloodstone
I feel like there’s a lot of revisionist history about phases 1-3 being a pure all well connected through line
Phase 1 definitely was and Phase 3 wasnt all directly connected but it had a through line that kept things feeling like they were building towards infinity war with all the pieces falling into place. I agree that phase 2 had no direction and was essentially throwing shit at a wall to see what would stick, similar to phase 4.
The thing is, a lot of those movies weren't nearly as grandiose as the MCU is now. It's less noticeable if you have a few loosely connected, ground level stories being told (not to mention it was less output than compared to now).
Absolutely
Post credits scenes featuring Skrulls
1. WandaVision
2. Far From Home
3. Ms Marvel
4. Hawkeye
5. Ant-Man 3
6. Falcon and Winter Soldier
7. Wakanda Forever
Seeing Secret Invasion(highly recommend Nando v Movies' Rewrite), this would have worked on so many levels and paid off so much later
I wish phase 4 was the five year gap instead of the events after it. Hawkeye as Ronan would’ve been amazing to see on screen
I want another season or movie of Daredevil where he's the last hero of NY after everyone got dusted. Kingpin survived the Blip and is rebuilding his empire. It would be amazing
I really love how Dan has gone from the newbie "intern", to holding his own in these discussions and both Benny and Sal give him the adult fan respect (Benny actually stops himself and lets Dan talk/finish his thought, a lot more than he did last year.).
It's been so incredible seeing him grow into a confident host, see Benny not need to please everyone as much, and see Sal soften up on some of his hardline stances(not change his mind, just be more willing to engage the discussions).
This isn't just beating a dead horse, it's beating it, setting it on fire and then shooting the ashes
It's good for people to not always get what they want, it'll help them grow, they're still rich streamers and dan. =]
Honestly my biggest problem with phase 4 is the lack of acknowledgment for the blip and how that not only affected earth but the entire universe fr
Can you IMAGINE the uproar if the "New Avengers" a bunch of women and POC even SYMBOLICALLY beat the original Avengers on screen??? The internet would explode. LOL
FR the m-she-u people would freak
So this is going to be a little bit of a warning… I don’t have a lot of people to discuss this topic with so I have a lot to discuss about and since this video is pretty long I guess it would make sense to have a very long comment.
The only thing that kind of rubbed me wrong in Captain Marvel was the fact that marvel decided to turn the Skrulls into sympathetic refugees. In the comics they were a warmongering tactician alien race that stood on nearly equal grounds with the Kree empire. But in the movie they made Kree this evil empire that was constantly having their foot on the Skrull’s neck, just because they wouldn’t pledge loyalty to their empire. The result was they were more sympathetic than their comic counterparts. Which is why I find secret invasions a very confusing concept considering that they were never portrayed as being the type to try to invade earth. Sure under Fury’s authority they may integrate with the population to better keep tabs on possible threats. Even at the end of Spider-Man far from home it was implied that Nick fury gave them a purpose and possibly created the MCU is equivalent of S.W.O.R.D.
The only way I think it will work out is that there’s actually a divide between Skrulls. I seriously doubt the ones that are working with Nick fury have any ill agenda as there trying to enact. So there’s a good chance the secret invasion could actually be a Civil War. Between the more peaceful Skrulls lead by nick fury….And Skrulls Who are tired of having to have everything they had taken away and they feel that humanity doesn’t deserve the planet… which is kind of similar to the actual secret invasion story plot in the comic books….give or take.
I’m not sure if you heard about this but I was reading an article saying that because the Eternals was so terrible that Marvel is deciding to Redcon the whole story by taking the remains of the sleeping celestial that’s somehow not being talked about by everyone on the planet. And it’s going to have a new name…. And rumors say it’s going to be renamed “Krakoa”….. so yes they’re trying to possibly bring the X-Men into the MCU. In fact there has been some leaked rumors about the script for the thunderbolts movie which implies that their mission is to go to the celestial body to retrieve a material described as Adamantium. Now originally I was excited about the possibility of the X-Men and mutants in general being added to the MCU but seeing how they’re kind of shoehorning into the universe in a very sloppy way. I mean with the last episode of Ms. Marvel they completely Redcon her origin because inhumans weren’t popular so they just baited her as a mutant. And even Namor is a mutant. So that alone we already have two basically official mutants in the MCU. But I feel like they’re going to screw this up by just telling people “oh this character was a mutant all along.” Plus there’s rumors that the mutants are most likely going to be more like the current Jonathan Hickman x-Men. Which they would need to do a lot of TV shows and movies to better paste the information but we know how Marvel/Disney, work… they’ll just throw some Vaseline and force it in as hard as they can to make it fit!…lol
Honestly one of my predictions for the conclusion or the aftermath of endgame was that even with the infinity gauntlet they could never truly put everything back the way it was. Which from what I heard was kind of touched upon in Loki. And possibly further in Multiverse of madness. The fact that you can’t truly bring back half the life in the universe without paying a cost. The only repercussion that occurred was in eternals…. Which the reemerging of life on earth initiated the awakening of the celestial inside the planet. But for me I was thinking more like it could’ve been an opportunity to introduce mutants.
People coming back would start realizing they have weird abilities that they didn’t have before the snap. Or individuals who are never originally part of the main reality may have found themselves in the MCU…. Which could be the reason why Deadpool is being introduced.
The problem is the ideas that make sense and would be entertaining are never used.
Instead we get these nonsensical, unfocused and confusing injections of content that doesn’t fit. And you’re right the whole idea of them basically trying to change the entire hero scape, is kind of hurting the MCU. One of my favorite examples that explains the multi-verse is ironically found in an animated DC film. It was said that the multi-verse is created by the events of one action that can diverge into two actions…. One where you did something… and one way you didn’t. That’s why when they were talking about the Multiverse I instantly thought of a way to bring back Scarlett Johansson. Because by that logic it would mean during the event when Natasha and Barton were trying to decide who would sacrifice themselves for the soul stone… it would most likely play out like it did except it would be Barton who was successful in sacrificing himself and not Natasha. Which could lead to some good storytelling revealing Natasha who is going through a similar thing as Barton….. where she goes to an emotional breakdown feeling that she was the one that deserves to die not him. Which can lead to her alienating herself not just from the avengers but from Barton family being unable to look at them in the face. Imagine what would happen during the events of secret wars where Barton comes in contact with Natasha from another reality. Both looking at each other for the first time and seeing that the other is still alive. Even if it’s another reality the fact that the other is still alive may be a great emotional release for both of them. Because both of them would be carrying a heavy weight of survival guilt and instead of fighting they may find themselves shedding tears and giving each other a hug instead because they’re just so happy to see the others still alive. That would be emotional storytelling in its best form…. And the viewers would probably be crying as well because they have been watching these characters suffer for so long. But as you said Disney kind of burn your bridges with Scarlett Johansson so it’s very unlikely unless they really beg her….lol
One additional reason it feels so unhyped is because now the time between individual direct sequels is getting longer and longer while also having the most amount of content. Thor, Iron Man and Captain America all had like 2-3years between sequels but now Shang Chi 2 is like half a decade in future but I also have to watch other things to get the full story. Ms Marvel S2 isn't just that but also a sequel to Marvels which is also Captain Marvel 2.
I think the biggest problem is that they aren't sure how to recapture the wonder of the Infinity Saga, so they're just sort of throwing everything at the wall.
I agree with Dan. Phase 4 is essentially Phase 1 of the new saga. The best way to describe it is when you watch a show and Season 1 is fantastic. Wraps up all the big storylines. Season 2 comes out and starts out FEELING slow because you have to reestablish the important plot points for Season 2.
Phase 4 established new characters that will show up in movies, portraying the multiverse and showing different characters in other realities but also showing a sliver of the consequences of universe hopping. Just like how a Season 2 could start off with the appearance there's no direction, the further you get into the season you'll realize what they were setting up.
I can understand MCU fans not feeling hype because we're back to the building phase instead of the payoff phase. I think Ant Man will be the movies to kick things in high gear.
the problem is you’re setting up too much, there’s Kingpin, Sharon, Skrulls, Multiverse that’s too much and they’re not consolidating
@@thomasjohnson1885 I think Fiege didn't set MCU fans expectations correctly. Fiege already said not every character you see in this Phase will be in Secret Wars. There will be a street level team, an earth level team, and a cosmic team. Fiege is just planting the terminology and characters so when Phase 5 & 6 (hopefully) pop off, we don't need to provide exposition.
@@SpyJamz That’s a handbook not quality entertainment. Phase 4 shouldn’t be set up, it should be good shows that introduce a character
@@thomasjohnson1885 good is subjective so that's not worth a discussion BUT Phase 4 is introducing characters and it does need a set up. It's an entirely new saga.
@@SpyJamz .
There are 2 types of rants I live for,
AngryJoe Rants
And phase 4 rants😂
The problem that I see is that everyone is wanting to skip ahead instead of just enjoying the fact that Marvel is at a place where they can experiment with genres and introducing all of these new characters.
Nobody was whining about "where are we going" in Phase 1 because we were just on the ride.
The problem isn't Marvel, it's we the audience being impatient and unreasonable and wanting EVERY piece of content put out by Marvel to be this massive earth shattering blatantly interconnected event.
This is my problem with the DC films which is that they do exactly what the audience wants them to do and they are failing because of it. Marvel knows the importance of building up and not rushing to get to the end game.
But that's just my 2 cents.
Yeah these guys should know better considering how knowledgeable they are.
People need to calm tf down. I've had my problems in regards to the QUALITY of the projects which is where most of the concern should be. I trust Feige to have a plan.
I understand where y'all are coming from and I do agree the fans need to chill but you have to admit the writing for the last 2 movies and shows is pretty bad.
Agreed its the “fans” and I mean the gen pop that become comic book nerds because D+ is in their house. So they came in at a time that they saw big this and that. We are in a second Phase 1, new characters that have to be introduced in layers this time.
No, you don't go from consistently having a plan to just not having one, that isn't on the fans it's on the company, and trying new things doesn't have to happen at the expense of an actual overarching storyline they're not mutually exclusive
@@ProducedByMERC there doesn’t always need to be an overarching plot for you to point at and look forward to just like how all the older movies like blade Spider-Man or X-men didn’t have a plot that went 5 movies ahead
Kevin Feige did promise the TV shows weren't required to watch the movies.
You can use your argument for almost the majority of the MCU movies, how did iron man 2 lead to infinity war, how did captain America 2 lead to infinity war
It surprises that in your guys advanced media literacy skills that you don't see what this Phase was ... When we were literally told:
"Phase 4 is about dealing with the aftermath of EndGame" Kevin Fiege said this.
While I definitely agree this is the weekest phase , let's not ignore information.
I feel like you guys are making a few good points but for the most part it seems like you are upset for not being able to see the full picture before the full picture's* been drawn.
People are impatient.
Or they're just upset because the movies are executing the same issues the comics have: doing too much at once and trying to guilt/bait the viewer into consuming all of it to keep up with the big event it's leading to
I absolutely agree! I'm thinking the exact thing while listening to them just go off when we are middle of the beginning of a new arc.
The biggest problem with phase 4 is it’s too much, they went from one thread linking all the movies to 10 different threads linking different projects and so on, what they should’ve done that would’ve expanded the universe and at the same time kept things streamlined is have three plot lines Cosmic Stuff which could build to Anihulus, Street Level stuff which could lead to some gang war between Kingpin and the street level heroes, and Avengers stuff which deals with the blip and then eventually all three crossover with a scaled up version of Secret Invasion.
Yk that's exactly what there doing 😶
We’ll the New Avengers are gonna be: Stature, girl hawkeye, Ms Marvel, Black Panther, Love, Skaar, Shang Chi, Ironheart, X-23, and Captain America
@@ryice944 no, they’re doing too much of that Shang Chi leads into She Hulk which leads into Cap 4 which was lead into by Fatws, meanwhile Secret Invasion leads to armor wars and maybe The Marvels which is lead into by Ms Marvel, The externals leads to cosmic stuff but also blade for some reason, Hawkeye and NWH and She Hulk all lead into daredevil, and it just keeps going. For every one plot line that gets wrapped up ten more appear and there isn’t one event that looks like it will clean everything up.
What they should’ve done is had all of the cosmic properties have a single through line, Annihulus is coming, that section of the universe should then stay separate from the rest for a while, then they have the street level properties with one through line a gang war with kingpin, then the sort of avengers not quite street level not quite cosmic stuff which leads into secret invasion and then after secret invasion have the events of it directly create the thunderbolts.Then eventually have all three corners cross over for secret wars.
@@mrbatman3008 eternals lead to dark knight and blade (supernatural stuff)
She-hulk teased hulk it didn't lead to anything (teased hulk in space)
Wanda vision lead to doctor strange
Ms marvel lead into more space stuff
Shang chi leads to ???
Falcon the winter soldier and Hawkeye leads to thunderbolts & echo/deardevil
(Street level stuff but not quite since ghost in on the team)
Oh yh loki lead into time travel stuff and ant-man
They said you get to pick which type of story you want now that's why their was so much stuff pushed out it all was for different stuff
They were just kinda spinning their wheels trying to figure out what they were gonna do throughout the whole phase. It lacked vision figuratively and literally. At least that's what it looked like.
I think Vision was in Wandavision 👍, hope this helps
@@wittyremark9985 vision is in wandavision
But there was a skrull at the end of Wandavision lol
I think people were expecting Phase 4 to be Phase 3, but bigger. What they are actually doing is Phase 1, but bigger. This is good, IMO. It means that we're building to something better than IW/Endgame. It also is providing a new stepping in point for people who haven't followed the MCU thus far (like my kids who are still a bit young for PG-13).
You guys are overreacting. Ya'll read comics, has it ever worried ya'll that a Daredevil storyline wouldn't cross over into the next highly anticipated Avengers crossover? Or that a few X-Men comics would be building up something that's self contained? No. Its FINE to not have everything connect.
We should honestly be more worried about the overall quality of projects rather than what the plan is, considering Feige is stretched thin and already running into production issues. I'm reserving doubts until I see Wakanda Forever and Quantumania, until then all this talk is absolute moot, especially considering what we've heard and seen from those two projects is already dispelling some concerns in regards to "lack of connectivity".
Phase 4 does feel disjointed but personally, after the epicness of the Infinity saga, I feel like Marvel has earned my trust. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt right now because who knows, maybe in 5 years we'll look back at phase 4 and go "ooohhhh, so that's what they were doing".
This is likely lol. I think Dan is right. This is like phase 1 B. I think we’re spoiled with just have gotten out of the infinity saga and everything we’ve seen in those phases. IMO.
I honestly don’t understand your complaints about everything not being connected and every project not leading directly to “Secret Wars”. Why do they have to connect? Ant Man, Iron Man 1,2 and 3, Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2, Doctor Strange, Incredible Hulk and Avengers: Age of Ultron didn’t directly connect to Infinity Wars & Endgame. Does that mean that they shouldn’t have existed? Not everything has to be interconnected and hint at incursions or Kang. That’s now what it’s like in the comics. In the comics the could be a big Marvel event happening, but in Spider-Man’s solo comics that event doesn’t get mentioned. I don’t see the problem with a lot of the movies/shows being in their own personal bubble. That means that as a casual viewer, you can skip most of them and not feel intimidated when you walk into the BIG movies like Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars.
21:02 I agree with that wholeheartedly. Secret invasion could have been it's own phase. A bunch of those event comics from back then really did weave into eachother well. Secret invasion dark reign and seige . Bunch of gold in there were not touching
At this point, thanks to ms marvel, I’m pretty sure Shang Chi is more likely to directly tie in to the upcoming Captain Marvel movie rather than Secret Wars.
Dan's idea of making the Ten Rings draw on multiverse energy and "The signal reversed" gave me literal chills, that would be so freakin cool and spooky and full of hype
It goes both ways. It all depends on how well they pull from everything that came before in the disparate stories across Phase 4 and 5 to make what is a hopefully cohesive throughline in Phase 6. They may have peppered a bunch of random stuff to see what people have been gelling with, but now that we know there is a plan in place, now they can go back and grab from all the dead ends and setups for things that don't feel like they are going anywhere, and then crafting a narrative that could be perceived as being all part of the plan while also more deliberately setting things up in some more soon to be released projects.
The plot in Capitan America and the Winter Soldier was a great setup to show how society functioned, struggled and loved after the blip
Thor love and blunder too
....
They've talked about the blip in every movie and show! Not sure what more you want? Every property to have a story centered around the blip?
That... actually would be a pretty interesting way to slowly mature the MCU tbh. Currently, FATWS is the only thing (outside of Hawkeye sorta) that's actively dealt with the ramifications of Blip the whole way through.
Shang Chi post credit matters if it’s connected to Kang’s tech which is seems like it is haha - so at least for now - but also Bruce’s sling is from the car crash in She Hulk
🙄 this was a test Phase, to try new things and see what stuck and what didn't.
Stuck:
- Shang Chi
- Magic storytelling
- Ensemble casts
- Marvel Special Presentations
- Storyies with plots unrelated to the 616 MCU
- MCU shows being where we explore diverse character stories
Didn't stick:
- art house film takes on Marvel characters ( it's a shame)
- sticking to the formula to closely
What were the art house films?
@@joshheralal8758 Eternals
@@Peecamarke but Werewolf by Night was pretty sweet...
I feel it’d be impossible to get but i want the dark avengers storyline in the mcu. When do we get that?
I really enjoy your guys' rant!!! The pitch for Secret Invasion and for Black Widow was great!!! Those concepts were so much more better than what we got. What a loss of opportunities to keep fans invested more. You're right, the multiverse incursion should of started with Black Widow, that would of been cool to have her in another universe. In Far From Home, I wish they would of leaned in more with the Skrulls in general.
maan i'm mad they didn't go with your Skrull idea that would've been so exciting leading up to everything
Thank you Sal! Phase 4 should have led to secret invasion…secret invasion isn’t just a series but should have been a whole phase or two
I feel like they wanted it to be more important when the illuminati said "incursions" in dr.strange. but no one left that movie talking about them.
I mean the post credit scene was about strange causing an incursion and needing to fix it
@@lewisbaldwin9683 but it’s a throwaway line setting up…something.
@@lewisbaldwin9683 yes and even so, when referring to the post credits the only thing I've heard people mention is Clea. My point is that despite how much the movie attempts to introduce incursions to us, I feel like it didn't stick with the audience as much as they would've wanted. This could just be my personal bubble, but I didn't hear discussions on the movie reference incursions with any of the same reverence that fans used to talk about infinity stones. If anyone mentioned them, it was usually a long the lines of "oh yea I guess secretwars is coming" and now that we officially know that, there isn't much else there
@@gamemasterbob9 back in phase 1 no one was talking about infinity stones, it wasn’t until phase 2 where it was actively being talked about. This means that the idea of incursions have been introduced and can then be expanded in phase 5
@@thomasjohnson1885 I guess the avengers 1 post credit scene was also a throwaway line setting up… something.
We knew at the end of Ironman 1 that the Avengers was the plan. We just thought Avengers was the movie being built to and not that it was the first part in a quadrilogy of Avengers movies.
Eh I’m fine with things not being connected at the mo. The only real gripe I have with phase 4 was the lack of the blip. I think having the blip being the main focus of phase 4 could have worked wonders.
For example, wandavision, Spider-Man FFH, FATWS all deal with the blip quite well. We could have had even more like if Ms. Marvel was blipped and her parents are against superhero’s because they failed to stop thanks initially. Or Kate was blipped and she has to deal with her mother being distant because she’s already grieved and moved on. Or the eternals talking about how much humanity changed during the 5 years. Or shehulk having a superhero client who was blipped and trying to get rent money.
So much could have been done and it was glossed over
How many more times are we going to talk about this?💀Good grief.
The "problem" with Phase 4 was
1. COVID-19
2. "Fans" want action, easter eggs and cameos. They don't understand that you can have stand alone projects and still be interconnected. The Infinity Saga was a film version of a comic book crossover event. That was done to start the MCU.
3. Auture related projects such as Moonknight, Wandavision, Werewolf by Night and Ms Marvel
4. Not everything has to be a lead up to a "big bad". Not everything show has to have a reference to every other film
That's not how comic books work.
I like the title House of Harkness much better than Coven of Chaos. Coven of Chaos sounds like it’s trying to leach off of Multiverse of Madness. Idk why they changed it???
Kevin feigi LITERALLY SAID FOR PHASE 4 YOU DONT HAVE TO WATCH EVERYTHING IN THE TV SERIES TO MOVIES TO KEEP UP LMAO
And then MoM came out and showed that was a lie
Bruh in re: Black Widow, I think there was a theory that someone there would be a skrull or something which would've been siiiick
I’m more hyped for this imaginary Secret Invasion movie than Secret War or Kang Dynasty
Irion heart lead to armor wars
Truth be told. Phase 4 feels like the fallout of not having a face for the mcu. So ot kinda created a vacuum to throw things against the wall and see what sticks
Oh wow I didnt even know this was you guys, I could have been watching this the whole time lol. Also where is Andy?? those round table chats on your other channel where you talk comic stuff were the best!!
I think a big part of 'Phase 4' feeling so aimless and less of a second 'Phase 1' is that in phase 1 easter eggs, like caps sheild in Iron Mans workshop, or even the infinity gauntlet being shown, were so out there everyone was thinking "oh thats so cool, but theres no way theyll actually follow through on that...will they? nah no way", where as now its an expectation that even the tiniest easter egg will get its own 10yr movie arch. Agatha gets her own spin off show, they say the word 'engineer' in WandaVision and everyone expects Reed or Adam Bashir to cameo.
The MCU is no longer a collection of movies that fan boys can get hyped over because of how they interconnect in cool unexpected ways, the MCU is its own beast now, and its a BEAST. Marvel is trying to homogenise it with the comics, and the tone across movies, while at the same time trying to milk it to oblivion like Star Wars, the two just cant mix. The MCU should be allowed to be a seperate thing from the comics, and the MCU should be allowed to diversify into different genres and styles, like Dan says let people find the heros that appeal and relate to them.
Personally I think they should have featured Carol more in 'Phase 4', despite the negative media, feature her like Wong is getting featured. But make her cameos "normal Carol" cameos, instead of blasting planets in half shes appearing as a Military Captian organising clean up after tidal wave devistation from Tiamut, Shes walking home with shopping bags in Hawkeye's big finale "oh you need some help there Arrow guy?" "nah I got this" "yeah ok, I like how you have a sidekick now thats so cool" "not my sidekick." etc. Just quick cameos that show her being more than just an OP planet killer + a through line into the next Phase.
the problem with phase 4 is no one cares about the movies they are watching, they only care about what's next. From a structural stand point is the Secret Wars Multi Verse storyline is just about introduce a LOT of new characters.
I kinda see it as the comics now or like how Dan said it’s like phase one. It’s not all connected, you can just watch what you want and some are setting stuff up. MoM, Loki and Spider-Man all talk about the multiverse and have that throughline. It’s like reading Hickmans avengers and complaining that squirrel girl doesn’t connect. Not trying to be rude I just feel like they’re not focused on connecting stuff so it’s not that big a deal
Like phase 4 has flaws but if anything I like that theyre keeping things separate and focus on letting people tell good stories (most of the time with varying results)
I feel like phase 5 should take inspiration from agent of shield season 4 where the season was split into 3 arcs. Phase 5 should be 2 arcs :one arc that focus one kang(with disney +shows tie to it) and the other arc should be secret invasion (with disney +show tied to it)
First off great video! I agree with some of the points brought up in this video. But honestly watching this and many otger videos this week on comic fandom ig...made me wonder, what happened to fans being excited for things they know they like?
Recently being a fan of the IP's I like has been very hard. It just seems like everywhere I go or turn, everything I like is getting needlessly criticized by people I support who claim to love the same stuff. And the criticisms mostly range from miniscual to baseless. And that everything has to be PITCH PERFECT or EXACTLY the way any individual wanted it to be, in order for if to even be considered passable.
I personally feel the most satisfied as fan of BOTH marvel and DC in the last 2 years. Everyone is bitching about the cancellation of ONE DC project or theyre upset because marvel doesn't want to make all their plans known rn. Can we be excited as fan of DC that they finally have Leadership and a plan and that both Batman and Superman are back. Can we be excited as marvel fans that all 3 spidermen, hugh jackman, charlie cox, vincent dnofrio, and patrick stewart have fall been back! And that we have finally know for sure who they next thanos is and that we're getting a GOOD F4 movie. Lets focus on that lol.
it feels like the Marvel cinematic universe has put a spot light on the problem the comics have. there are lots of characters that don"t really have a relationship with one another. this would be fine if they were not all supposed to be part of teams and communities. I cannot imagine Captain America ever hanging out with Iron man.
Marvel: Sets up multiverse, Kang, Thunderbolts, Midnight Sons, Secret Wars, and some version of WWH
Nerds: We're building towards nothing
Exactly!
I hate the fact we're getting a solo Kraven thing. I wanted him to be the next Spidey villain as a scale down from No Way Home. Just Spidey being hunted by Kraven, no end of the world stakes, just solid Spidey action with a villain I feel is strong enough to play off of Spidey, but not strong enough to solo movie himself.
I have a feeling he'll morb out, and people will celebrate not watching it.
I don’t care if they’re interconnected or not. Phase 4 should have been a standalone director driven character focused phase but they want their cake and eat it too, set up and do these standalone things that don’t matter, they want people to watch for nostalgia but also care about somothing new. The bigger problem is the quality is mediocre at best, I don’t think they need to try and they know it it’s how you get Taika making Thor 4, She Hulk writers saying they can’t write courtroom scenes. People don’t care because “It’s like phase 1” no it’s not phase one wasn’t perfect but they tried hard to make it work because they were hungry and desperate now they’re lazy and can do whatever.
You know what I like is that people like tons of people on TH-cam and I've even seen a couple things on like Reddit who have better ideas for how the MCU can play out but could have happened but should have happened and what can happen and they can all do it better than people who get paid to make The stories that go into the big screens this is really just embarrassing for marvel at this point and I love marvel but they fell off story-wise I like it when everything connects I don't care people say I like that and if people can't understand that then screw them
Certain are connecting without them blatantly saying it. This phase is a slow build.
I get Dan's season one comparison and I get the idea he's trying to put forward. But I think it falls apart when you consider that this "Season One" is longer than the entirety of the three seasons that came before combined. And while it's great to introduce new characters. It fall flat if there's no point to them. Sam Wilson - Captain America and Sylvie are the only two characters that feel like there's a point to them existing.
That's the issue I ultimately feel. The sheer length of it without any real direction except for a handful of projects (Loki and Strange). That's an issue. It's fine to have stand alone franchise, but it just seems like we're at a standfull.
I feel like now they’re low key doing what DC is doing but with a creative outlines.
16:01 incursions is the big bad but that doesn't mean everything has to be about that or that is the only thing everything is leading towards.....wandavision, loki, NWH and Multiverse of Madness are directly leading towards incursions and secret wars but....
rest of the projects like black widow, Falcon&WS, Hawkeye, Captain america are leading to Thunderbolts
Projects like Loki, Ant-man, Loki 2 and maybe other future projects will lead to KANG
Black knight, Moon Knight, Warewolf and Blade would have their own little supernatural event
AND these all smaller events lead to the Big Event i.e. Secret Wars and thus everything becomes important
Its not just incursions and Secret Wars.....i think Marvel has gone too big but i believe eventually, when all the pieces will start fitting into places it will become much clearer
And this is not new.....Infinity saga wasnt just leading to Infinity War/Endgame they were leading to smaller events as well like Avengers initiative, Ultron, Civil War.....but they were very linear and they all had Avengers in their name which made it very simple......Now, Marvel doesn't need to do simple because they have already showed us how it works.....Ironman 3 was leading to Ultron, Thor 2 was about introducing an infinity stone, Winter soldier was leading to less Ultron and more towards Civil War, Guardians introduced another Infinity Stone and what Thanos was planning, its all already established and its nothing new
but they forget most nerds are dumb and very few look at what Marvel is doing because they are blinded by what they want Marvel to do.....and thats the biggest problem....
NO ONE TRIES TO LOOK AT WHAT THEY ARE DOING.....its Marvel's fault to trust their audience about the big picture....they need to drop all this fantastic events and make everything about one event
Just imagine if every Infinity Saga was all about Infinity war and endgame only.....nothing else, no other events, no storylines that aren't related to infinity stones......it would have sucked
I’m still pissed Damage Control didn’t turn into a faction of skrulls
Phase 4 is gonna be the Home Alone 3, 4, and 5 of the MCU. Everyone only remembers Home Alone 1 and 2 aka the Infinity Saga.
Wandavision introduced nexus beings and started using some of the first references to a multiverse . Which again was further explored in doctor strange with us actually going through the nylticerse fighting other teams. And that in turn taught us about incursions . Which as you guys know is the whole trigger behind secret wars. So it all builds up pretty well lol. A better example to illustrate no interconnectivity would have been moon knight. Moon knight is pretty damn stand alone and only really helped to establish lore on the after lives in the MCU.
aren't they making a show with Rhodes getting over Tony death. Like that should be the thing that link to Iron Heart
The original idea for the disney+ shows was you didnt have to watch them though. I think thats why Falcon and Winter soldier was the way it was but then they did start with Wandavision which you do kind of need to watch for MoM so yeah idk. They just messed up
Love it every time you guys post
It’s because the MCU now is basically a more expensive CW.
Have every Marvel show ending with a post credits scene where some secondary or extra was a skull would've been brilliant
The contempt for MCU movies is the same type of contempt for comics. The comic story makers (print and screen) have to sacrifice story and deep world building to appeal to the masses with flash and spectacle. The overall product then comes off as less organic then what came before comics went mainstream and the MCU blew up.
It is wild that he said the hype for the mcu is dead... a week before black panther 2 comes out!
@22:42 yeah Sal, but the movie Capt. Marvel RUINED THAT by making the Skrulls good guys.
No THOSE Skrulls were good
Telling a story about a multiverse doesnt quite work nor fits in a perfect 6 movies per phase like the phase 1,3, and 3*. Phase 4 is just too much of nothing and the de-powering of our favorites and then coalescing to something. The main phase 4 movies dont lead to anywhere and the TV shows doesnt seem to lead to anything either.
They are trying to do too much at once. As you mentioned Secret Invasion could be a big threat. The Eternals and the celestials could be a thanos level threat. Blade and vampires being in the MCU could also be a huge deal that brings multiple heroes together. There are so many events that they are minimizing. What I do like tho is that they are not jumping at the X-men just yet bc if they did it would’ve been a serious mess. They’re planning something huge for them which I like because X-men are arguably Marvel’s biggest and most expansive property.
I think Guardians may set up incursions since Gamora is not from this world.
I like how Benny called it the Cosmic cube! That's how I remember it. Tesseract is still new to me.
It's so funny to listen to them talk about Secret Invasion and Quantumania with hope
Another reason this is less exciting is that a lot of new characters are derivatives of old characters. Here's Patriot, US Agent and a new falcon oh Sam is the new Cap and Russia had a their own Cap. Here is a new Black Widow, new Hulk and Hulk Junior, new Hawkeye, new Black panther, New Iron man, girl Loki, two new Captain Marvel protege's, another Thor.
That is a lot of retreading or repackaging to take in with few new powersets or skills, on that front you have Taskmaster, Moon knight, Shang Chi, the Eternals, America Chavez and I guess Namor. Two of those are villains, one was a sidekick and the other was an ensemble .Phase four could have used another debut original hero to connect to.
Almost thought Benny was saying “E-turtles”
Just like superman or the justice league you need a big enough threat or event for them to show up in the first place otherwise why didn't you use a less powerful character.
Even though most Marvel movies have always been mid (yes ,even pre Phase Four movies were mid), I at least like that they're more experimental now. I hate the idea that every Marvel movie passes the buck to the next project, and now that we're much more loosely connected I'm enjoying it more. I think Phase Four is actually better than Phases 1+2, but just more inconsistent than Phase 3.
I agree. It’s like how people now thing the Incredible Hulk and iron man 2 are good now only because they want to make phase 4 seem worse
THANK YOU! People only think about the good of phases 1-3 and ignore the bad in an attempt to smear phase 4.
Benny, please can you guys start reviewing Stargirl, season 3 is the final season. Also Titans S4 has started
I miss the old intro music
I hope secret invasion has a twist where the scrolls are attacking because “someone” told them about the incursions and decide to attack Earth.
But we did get the seeds in wandavision, and spiderman far from home which i thought was enough
I think a lot of the things that's not leading to kang can lead to battle world
How will Secret Invasion even be good if no one we care about will be Skrulls in a side piece Tv show? Like we know major Avengers won't take part, no side characters are even teased as Skrulls. The show won't be anything major
Kind of figured he'd be over it by now since it's about to end in a couple of days.😅 overall I liked face for for the most part, at least more than phase 2, I didn't watch all of it because there's just a bunch I don't care for like Black Widow, the eternals , and moon night, but I liked it. I do still think the shows shouldn't have been included as phases no matter how big or small they are and should have been treated like their own things, like the Netflix shows before Kevin feige vs Ike Palmer happened, and it's a little cluttered with how much comes out in a year because of it, but maybe they just don't want to wait another 10 years before King and Secret Wars.
The weird thin is, there was a Skrull in Wandavision.
Captain Marvel by itself could have been Secret Invasion . I don't mine it being. Show but Sal is right the end credit scene should have been someone on the MCU is a Skrull and we keep learning who it is.
yeah phase 4 felt like them spinning there wheels and barely anything happening or mattering in the long run
Dan is right, we are back to phase 1 to build new characters up but after just having endgame....everything seems boring and meh these suck. Having to rebuild the roster isn't making for a very exciting list of movies.
I think the idiot version of Wong in She-Hulk was a Skrull.
@@Peecamarke he also, broke a criminal out of prison, did not understand how law works, became a fugitive from the USA and called on She-Hulk to help with a supernatural incursion that he could have fwarted on his own. So yeah, this Wong is a moron.
Phase 4 is really making me question if Kang is supposed to be the real antagonist we’re leading to, I hope this isn’t another Ultron type situation
I like how dan is just there nodding lol
I think avengers earths mightiest heroes did an excellent version of secret invasion
Dude, the patience is at an all time low. Everyone is expecting Infinity War and Endgame material every damn time now. PHASE 4 is just a detour to the new direction of the grand story arc for the MCU. Don’t like it? Don’t watch it. I guarantee that there’s a big payoff just like in the Infinity Saga.
Feel like phase 4 should of focused on the blip.
-Black Widow- takes place before Endgame so we see what life was like after the snap. Would have made it way more interesting
-Eternals- focus on the secret history of the mcu through them and how the snap affected things on a cosmic scale
-Shang-Chi- okay I am convinced that the Rings are connected to Kang who got them via Celestial/Eternal tech and we actually honor the name of the film the legend of the 19 rings. I would rather see an adoption of the master of king fu battleworld comic where he fights the Mandarin to be the leader of the various martial arts schools and holder of the 10 rings with the same plot as the movie minus the cgi 3rd act and more on actual martial arts.
Dr. Strange: be based off the comic the oath and on strange and wong's friendship and Wong as the sorcerer Supreme
Thor love and thunder: the asguardians adjusting to life on Earth and more of Gorr butchering gods and how the blip affected faith and religion in the universe
-Wandavision- while pretty great probably where we should have seen Man-thing and talked about Nexus points and have an appearance by strange
-loki should introduce America Chavez
-Falcon and the Winter Soldier: while a poorly executed show due to the pandemic I think it had the right idea
- ms. Marvel- still focusing on the little people affected by the blip and just being a street level hero
-she-hulk- slice of life but more building up past events in a more meaningful manner. Like they wanted to do the Leader but couldn't. More with Abomination. Should of had the great lake Avengers instead of the silly Mr. Immortal plot, and discussing suing over their name. She-hulk caused plenty of damage in episode 8 that should of been discussed, along with damage control and what the government thinks of hulks.
-Moon knight- should lead to events in Thor love and Thunder and tie into shang chi with Egyptian Gods and hint at Kang as Rama-tut and the role he played to getting his power from the ennead
Werewolf by night- moon knight is being hunted for the Bloodstone
There was a skrull appearance of wandavision
I was actually in the mood for this conversation. Coincidence?
Dude another phase 4 rant come on, can we jus get pass tht yea we know its bad, phase 2 had the same problems