I think what people get most upset about is that characters never seem to keep any growth or even consistency. I know that Sal is not particularly fond of Damien but I think even he is annoyed that any growth is lost almost every single run.
It's not the same as consistent growth but this is why I like people who completely blow up and rebuild when they take over. Like Morrison or Hickmans Xmen. You don't get the satisfaction of a smooth transition but it's still nice to see a writer look at where they could be headed and just take them there instead of treading the same ground.
a comic character has to relearn the same lessons over and over again for every run because, there is a new writers that comes in and writes whatever they want: that's just the business of writing comics. i think it's a smarter move to think of runs on characters as, if you are reading for the writer not the character. like how many times does hulk have to be a monster, reed has to learn about family is important, batman should stop being an asshole, and spider-man trying to find the balance between two of his live etc. as sal stated, comics are cyclical.
@@johnthai6188 It doesn't have to be like that though. A new writer doesn't mean that what came before needs to be done away with, and there's even been writers who have maintained what came before. The only reason these characters constantly reset, is because the companies believe that the fans will react negatively if the status quo isn't maintained, and because of that fans often react negatively whenever there is an attempt to shake up said status quo. It's a cycle that neither readers nor the people in charge truly wanna break, and if we as readers want it to change, we've gotta start voting with our wallets.
@@johnthai6188 I get that. But I don't follow writers. Not a single one. I follow characters. I can tell you they I liked Spider Island but not who wrote it.
@@antoniuspoe9945 i guess what i mean is, when a new writer comes on, think about it as a new run not a continuation of the same character's journey. because different writers, have different ideas they want to write about. examples would be tom king's batman is different than scott snyder's batman, bendis's superman is different to PKJ's superman and greg rucka's wonder woman is different from azzarello's wonder woman.
To me, characters, who have been around long enough, have well defined 'souls', core fundamentals that make up who they are. So, Superman is a nice, friendly, cheerful, optimistic boyscout who mainly sees himself as a farmboy from Kansas, who greatest power is his moral compass/ethical wisdom, and always tries to do the right thing. Smaller contextual stuff or ideas about him like 'how would he react to some specific situation' can be left up to interpretation but those main aspects need to be there. And if they aren't, or a writer strays too far away from those things, there's a good chance a lot of people who know the character well enough will end up rejecting a take that doesn't have them.
here's an interesting question: is it ok for the character have to relearn the same lessons over and over again with each run? like spiderman trying to find the balance between his life, reed learning about family is important, bruce banner can never be happy and batman shouldn't keep everything to himself etc. is it bad writing that these character don't grow and mature?
@@johnthai6188 If a writer has a really new, creative, fresh spin on that specific character arc sure, you can probably get away with doing that. So long as its really well executed and the last guy didn't just do it. But if it's just the same bland repackage of the same story that's been told a million different times now it probably won't be well received. Because you are always being compared to what came before. Comic characters are unique in that their stories are never ending. Some have been around for many decades. Which does leave room for someone to come in and put a different spin on an old idea once and awhile. But you can only get away with that so much before people want something genuinely new in terms of character development.
@@johnthai6188 it’s okay to a certain extent but also kind of just inevitable when a story goes on for this long. The simpsons have repeated a ton of ideas and they’ve been going what? Thirty years? Batman has gone on for like ninety years at this point, inevitably alot of ideas will repeat as a consequence of these characters never being allowed something everyone in real life have to deal with: an ending. So I don’t blame writers and artists repeating ideas tooooo much, but if it’s basically the same idea several runs in a row then I’ll say it may be creatively bland
Once again Sal is dropping knowledge! Also I love Tom Taylors Nightwing run, probably my favorite version next to the Jock and Snyder version were he is Batman! Also keep the DBZ references coming i love that shit!
Waitaminute, Benny, the Zur En Arrh failsafe was in the Grant Morrison Batman run in like 2009. That’s when it was made into a failsafe persona thing. Chip is using what came before.
I hate to say it but we need a Jim shooter or Julia Swartz in the editor position to keep everything consistent again. Feel like both companies have just let everyone run wild (but not in a good way) and left their history in the dust to build up their “new history” for the movies. Anything that’s old doesn’t matter as long as it works for the movies in 2 years
I love the MCU and the comics but you don't understand the fury I felt when I heard they were making ANOTHER Secret Invasion storyline just because the show is coming out soon 😭😭😭
I see both sides of the argument but when Nightwing remembers all his comic history it makes more sense for him to react the way he did The argument about Damien really annoys me because you’re both completely right the next writer never builds off the previous version and I think Joshua Williamson’s 17 issue run is the perfect status quo for him other than Young deadly brat (but maybe I just have a bias as you also discussed)
In this day and age, nothing is canon while everything is canon. Tom King said in a recent interview with CBR that Riddler One Bad Day is canon or it isn't if people don't like it. His argument is that stories that take place in the future are canon because they will always take place in the future. I don't necessarily agree with that, but canon is generally based on how popular a book is. Killing Joke wasn't canon and then it was. I think that a story is canon only if it is referenced later. That's why everything is canon while nothing is canon.
I hit this epiphany after about the 50th debate I had about how Superman should be. I realized that, at the end of the day, every version of Superman is kosher. Necksnapping, helping cats out of trees, ripping people in half, being enemies with Batman, being friends with Batman. It's all Superman, and everyone is allowed to like an interpretation of Superman that agrees with them. I realized that if I want to enjoy my version of Superman consistently, I should just read All Might. Because All Might is my Superman, with all the fat trimmed out.
It's all about "wanting" to stay "relevant" in the Fandom conversation that will never end. Because the medium is about publishing content, as long as it sells and is popular. So I don't get involved in the "Fandom conversation" I enjoy what I enjoy and don't read what isn't important.
The way I see it that it's like how sports fan love to backseat coach. A lot of comic fans like to fancy themselves as better writers and do back seat writers. Which is an easy thing to do when you have the hindsight and deal with multiple neckbreaking deadlines.
8:35 -8:40 you mean like Astro City,or Hellboy, or Saga,or fables,or Deadly Class,or The Walking Dead,or monstress, or invincible? or 100 bullets,or POWERS,or any American comics outside of the big 2 superheroes?
If you are referring to the, “one consistent writer” point then Walking Dead, 100 Bullets and Saga have been written by one person consistently. Some cases have the same penciler as well.
@@SuperMcgangbang yeah that's my point. All the Comics I've listed have just as much consistency as Manga, but people always forget that they're American comics outside of marvel and DC.
Without yet watching the video, I just wanna say the fact that this question has to be asked so much is why I’ve stopped reading DC (and a lot of marvel) and switched mostly to indie or at least self-contained comics.
Perhaps there needs to be a new "format" for comic storylines/arcs. Maybe they need to take a TV show format where one individual creates the overall storyline with all the important stuff planned out. Then have individual comics like annuals and the main comic run written by writers who have to fall within that storyline and characterization of that character. That way at the very least you can have a decade of consistent characterization while you have one person over seeing the overall storyline going on at that time.
You can also look at it like the MCU too Kevin Feige runs MCU and he makes sure all the characters remain consistent and hit the right story beats at the right time while different writers and directors handle the individual movies
You guys have really been hitting it with this fandom talk. I like that we’ve reached this point where we can all step back and take a look at fandom. Nostalgia and the access to all of it at the same time has changed the way people view things. The need to compare is almost like a disease.
I think of character continuity the way of each writer has their own version. It's like Doctor Who, each new writer is a new Doctor. I think there is more continuity within each writers ouvre. If you read every Grant Morrison you see the same themes explored from different directions depending on the character he is writing, and the same is true for most writers.
That's not what the big 2 are though, that's not how they built their brand. People don't buy comics for the writer, they buy to continue the journey with the character they've been reading for however long. The whole appeal to Marvel and DC is the massive scope of the stories, with large histories and lots of interconnectedness. That's what the comic buying audience goes to them for. Nobody is going to buy their favorite writer if continuity doesn't matter anymore. Once the MCU and DCEU crash, and the speculators bail, we'll see how much the audience has shrunk with this constant redefining approach. I suspect significantly
@@rickrivers2021 I buy based on writer or artist often. I've tried just collecting one character but when it hits a writer or artist that is just ok or bad, I'm like why am I spending money to slog through this writer just for continuity? The scope is a double edged sword, it makes reading everything straight through a character basically impossible, or just not the worth the time since a lot of it is going ot be mediocre to bad. You always have to pick and choose how you read western comics. I try to hit well known/liked backstories and ignore the rest.
@@Edlin261 My point is that the 'pick and choose readers' is a newer thing, and it's a smaller and more unstable audience. Publishers should be trying to get writers who work in continuity to keep the steady fans of a character happy. Instead they have the philosophy that every writer can have their own take, and as longterm fans are leaving the big 2 are increasingly reliant on speculators to stay afloat
@@rickrivers2021 It's a neat idea, but I'm not sure how they could pull it off. You'd either have to have one writer on for a loooooong time or like the way Hickman did Xmen where he has a continuity bible everyone follows, but of course he got poached by Substack and that continuity is already falling apart, so it's pretty hard to maintain.
Sort of why Dave Filoni, Jim Shooter and Kevin Feige are so special. One person who can maintain continuity among multiple writers projects and keep it enjoyable for a long time. It's a super rare talent.
You can definitely say that fictional characters handled by multiple writers are acting out of character. We do it with TV and movies all the time. Its a pretty natural part of artistic criticism or analysis, especially in serialized fiction. If fictional characters didn't have some core traits and defining characteristics then most writing would be meaningless if not outright gibberish. Marvel and DC have chosen and overtly stated that the characters we're reading about are, for the most part, the same ones from the 40s, 50s, and 60s. The fact that comics are the least profitable vertical of their parent companies, and therefor the least monitored, doesn't invalidate criticism of their product.
If I Were writing Red Hood, I'd make him internalize the Lazarus pit somehow and basically monkeys paw him with immortality. Being the Bat family's own "human target" taking bullets would be poetic justice for his past while giving him a unique skill for the Bat family.
Toriyama has officially retired from DB, he's been working with a younger writer for all the Super manga as well and thats the person whose taking over.
Usually items that are considered canon come from the original source of the fictional universe while non-canon material comes from adaptations or unofficial items. In layman's terms, one could basically say that something that is canonical is something that "actually happened" in that universe.
An important message indeed. As someone who is sad we won't get Grant Morrison's interpretation of X-Men (X-Corp era), it ended with his seven volume run. It was MY X-Men, and I'm glad there will always be a separate era of X-Men for new or older fans to enjoy and follow.
Sal summed up why I don't enjoy comics(Marvel/DC) like I used to. Because their philosophy is "If continuity has to be sacrificed, it will." Then what's the point of reading it!? I get not having each run connect becauses creates its own issues. But do they always have to have the same story over and over again!? Every spider-man run begins and ends in the same way. Either have MJ and Pete married or DON'T!! But don't go back and forth like you have the balls to stick to a decision. Stories should have some kind of lasting consequence even if small.
My favorite Batman book ever at this point in my life is Sean Murphy's White Knight series. I really enjoy all the new interpretations of all the classic characters, and I really appreciate the two Harleys. A clever way to dismiss the new style while preserving all the greatness of the original Harleen Quinzel character. I think this also fits into what you were saying about the birth and death of a creator's Batman. Really enjoy watching you guys!
If you ask me, comic books titles really need character bibals, that way they can avoid bad characterizations that either come from something dumb or out of nowwhere.
I've heard on many occasions that super heroes are the new Greek gods and in many ways that's true. Even Greek and Norse mythology had various interpretations that don't match up cohesively and it's basically up to us to cherry pick the parts we like.
Comic books are splitting in every direction because the lack of a good single leader in the company. A good yet cocky writer wants to write an almost stand-alone story does what they want, the story gets big, now we have another straying story. It also seems to me that DC and Marvel are "throwing spaghetti to the wall and see what sticks". The more story you make the higher the likelihood of something to "stick" and bring in the "dough". Then you also have animation, movie, tv, and video game adaptations. Which further cause a stray from the comics (main source). Justice league comic books is so much more different than the popular Justice League (2000s). But the 2000s justice league is also different from the 2010s animated Justice League. Then you also have the 2 different movies...... It's so difficult to determine what is Canon for a story/character anymore.
I've been thinking about this. As a red hood/Jason fan, but I love the softer and emotional moments. Not the dumb tank on a murder spree. But many fans love the villain Jason, and that's fine. I just like the zuko style redemption for Jason
Small note, but on the Red Hood digging Babs romantically in 3 Jokers, just to be fair, 3 Jokers didn’t start that. The weekly series Batman Eternal started that, however at the end of the book he doesn’t tell her. In fact I think he makes a note to her and either chooses not to give it to her, or some circumstance lead to her just not reading it or hearing it, I don’t remember. But I know that way predated 3 Jokers. So there’s SOME founding on Red Hood having a crush on Batgirl.
Agree with everything said. Used to be a big baby about it until I got older and everything was put into perspective. So this comment is basically for the algorithm
While I dropped DC comics my understanding is that a characters past is still in play, so Nightwing reacting to Batman's "death" in Gotham Knights, then later in JLA: Obsidian age when the League was killed and Dick was the new leader, then how he handled it in Morrison's Batman and Robin Reborn, I would think that now during Dark Crisis Dick is like been there Done that So it makes sense to me Dick doesn't mourn Batman's death because in his history he's lived through it all before. For me as a comic reader, I was reading Batman for years with Starlin, Dixon, etc from 80s-90s to the 00s that's all the same character. Then when we reached the regression Era with John's and Winnick disbanding the Titans and Young Justice for Teen Titans and Outsider and bringing us Crisis after Crisis that's when it started to feel like characters weren't being written consistently with past portrayals
Completely agree with Sal here. UtRH is a good story, but they never should’ve brought Jason Todd back in the regular continuity. One of the worst mistakes. I also agree with Benny though that if Red Hood is going to be around, he shouldn’t be in Gotham or part of the Bat-family.
I got really into Donny Cates’ Venom, it was just a perfect vibe for me, so that’ll always be Venom to me. His characterization in the Ewing/V/Hitch run is pretty consistent, though. It just adds a whole bunch of other wacky confusing nonsense lol
Also one of the few books I really liked red hood was task force z. It was a stupid as shit book, but having him there swinging dual wield crowbars was a good choice
Yeah. I LOVED Brian Michael Bendis' Daredevil. It's literally my favorite run in comics. There's other good runs later (and right after) but I know that I won't get that Daredevil again.
Akira Toriyama actually only does the outlines for Dragon Ball Super now, the anime staff gets his outline and then the dude who created Dragon Ball AF back in the day gets it too and writes/draws the manga off it
I think head Canon is perfectly ok. It allows for an individual to have their personal attachment to a creation that others may not even consider, aswell as give closure to stories that may have been done dirty or canceled. BUT when head Canon collides with actual Canon, it's important to distinguish what you want to have happened and what actually happened. Like for instance, my head Canon for 2015 secret wars is that the universe completely reboots, which gives me a perfect jumping off the boat to end reading marvel comics if i wanted to. BUT that doesn't make sense if I want to read on with Hix men. I can give a personal head Canon but I know what I want isn't what's real.
When did Hercules "become" Hercules?Why is Beowulf, Beowulf? There can be many adoptions of Sun Wukong, but we all know what the character is about, how and why he acts. We agree now on the canon of these characters and stories but back when writers were just making Hercules stories, there were many wide and varying degrees of the character. Comics are interesting because they are the modern mythologies but what makes the last century of Superman stories fascinating is that we've been writing those stories knowing that it's modern myth. All of our notions of canon comes not just from the ancients but also the scholars centuries after them complied the stories into a coherent narrative of character. Modern writing is so heavily influenced by what we've learned but we also want to superspeed the process and also be the scholars and voice of authority when it comes to these characters and their worlds. But we don't have a solid canon. Think about this: what is the canonical Gotham City? What does it look like, how big is it, where is it-what makes Gotham, Gotham? We have aesthetic ideas of Gotham but not every story depicts Gotham the same. So much of comics are fluid, open to change (have no hard canon). The only "real" canon in comics currently are the tropes of the most iconic characters. You can have Batman on an alien world fighting robots, but as long as he has 1) parents murdered in alley, 2) vow to avenge them, 3) no-kill/no-guns, 4) a batsuit - you can do anything with that character. And that's the main tag line of Elseworlds. Is Gotham by Gaslight Batman fighting Jack the Ripper any less canonical than him fighting mobsters in the 40s or the Joker? Batman has ranged from a psycho enlisting child soldiers in his war on crime to a loving father figure to an urban legend to world-known superhero. Are any of those versions of him more canonical than the others? No, but there can be iterations that are bad and completely miss the character (a Batman who kills is not Batman, that's something a majority of fans have concensus). Canoncity in comics is an odd space to be. Many of these characters have been around long enough to have their own tropes, and have been rebooted, reworked, for every generation in multiple medias. That's also an intersection area, adoptions outside the page. Movies, tv, animation, games -these adoptions look to the source for inspiration, but we also see how these versions also influence the source their pulling from. Your idea of Batman likey is pulling in pieces from different media to patchwork your ideal version. So then the canon of these characters becomes this meta-narrative of transmedia influence that varies person to person, time period to time period, media to media. A Batman movie is no less canonical than the current run in the comics. I don't know if this a postmodern phenomenon in the way our media and consumption of it has changed. I personally like the Grant Morrison approach of its all canon, and who cares if the story you like took place before Crisis or any of the other reboots, you like it so it's canon to you.
4:10 I see where you guys are going with your interpretations but to me he screams Falcon lol. Even some of his line delivery tries to come across like an Anthony Mackie impersonation.
I usually like to stay away from Gatekeepers(Sal named them perfectly) at the end of the day I read a story if I liked it I’ll get for my collection if I don’t then okay I’ll just move on the next one. Also Dan Slott is my favorite Spider-Man writer too.
The only issue with this is that akira toriyama is not only not the only person writing dragonball anymore, but I would argue he’s a terrible example anyway. The man profoundly does not understand his own characters nor does he care to. This is the author that has forgotten whole characters and well known character traits repeatedly. He has to be reminded fairly often that sayans even had tails.
Cold we get a blade watch/review? I think it'd be interesting and watching "old" superhero movies to see if they hold up or are good. Maybe watchmen. i know you guys already have alot on your plate so just an idea.
Amazing discussion Benny and Sal on how the different characterization of a character is acted differently from each creator. >>> With each new comic creative, the better version is the character "over there" because... 🤔. Where the discussion ends is when fandom outrage slams. 🤔👉 Sorry going to spew a rant. I am just putting my position as a noob to comics::: Being somewhat new to reading comics, I find it is hard to follow some characters work. I am not sure, but as much a character's origin/history is retcon, reboot, re-imagined, or reassigned (gender or orientation), one thing I would hope is constant is the character's core trait and personality. Unfortunately pisses and greatly gives joy is when a fan says my version is the best and yours is trash. Each fan has different entry point. For me was the animated (BTAS and Teen Titans) stuff. So, I like Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing because that I am reading Tom Taylor's current run. I love his adventures and heroism in the current run and I cannot imagine it ending. But I am boggled by when peeps say it is simple trash. Then, (going backwards) I hear Ric was trash, the Rebirth Nightwing was trash, the post-Flashpoint New 52 Grayson and Nightwing was trash, post-Crisis Nightwing was the best of all bite me and forget Teen Titans/Titans, Bronze, Silver, and Gold Grayson is trash. LoL (that being said cannot wait for Nightwing 100 🤩 hope to see a nice ties to the legacy). 😉 I am learning to appreciate Jason/Robin 2/Red Hood because of last year's Nightwing annual - very cool and hope to see that characterization of Jason consistent in other book or media forms. Lastly, I find it more cringe is how the change in some characters or some mantle swaps? The characters are Jon Kent, Tim Drake, and Tim Jace Fox. I do not know much about Jon, I know peeps are rageful of his aged up and orientation, but I feel accepting of Jon's character development. On the case of Tim Drake, I know solely by animated series. I know he is a teenager and "the best detective” (…sadly, I find Tim is boring and just is flat character). However, with this “creative” current run I feel like the character is being forced fed: Tim is "the best Robin” as trademark, he is his sexual orientation, and (nothing to with character persona) I do not get why I am puking and poking eyes looking at the art style to depict Tim and the most bizarre Robin book to date. (Why could Tim’s persona be built better and get out of Gotham…?) As the mantle of a hero, I am also so confused why this Next Batman because Bruce is alive why is this still going on and has Bruce or Batman Inc. got to Jace Fox and say "we do not approve you are Batman go make your own hero name and identity." Hahaha. Thanks - sorry for super long rant, but I love this conversation was the best! Laters. 👏😃
Nightwing is difficult for me because I always interpreted him and Bruce to have a mentor mentee relationship which tends to have elements of brother to brother and father son mix. However everyone else prefers a straight father to don relationship
Only comic books or manga, next question To bennys point: the answer is the current writer determines what’s canon To sals point: he’s right about wade
I got into comics binge-reading on Marvel Unlimited, not by reading a particular era, but by regularly reading decades worth of material in a month. The idea that we should accept a character being redefined each run is absurd to me. It's clearly an idea that's been pushed over the last 30 or so years, but not very successfully. Fans either don't like it or just forget about it because it's out of place in their heads. Ultimately, it is the writer's responsibility to build their take on the character into the canon organically, and if it doesn't fit, their take is just definitively bad. Waid's Daredevil may be a complete tonal shift from the three decades leading up to it, but it worked because he does the legwork to make Matt's changes seem like a natural evolution, a response to what past writers had done. Heck, Miller's DD run was the same way, if you ignore the continuity shattering 'Man without Fear' mini. Writers shouldn't ever ignore past character development, but instead build on it. And they should always stay true to the heart of the character, which has been established over the decades with numerous respected runs.
Damian's problem is that DC keeps trying to turn him evil. The last TT run was done to take Damian 2 steps back forcing him to lose the Robin mantle so he can be bif baddie for 5g. I don't get why they just can't let him be the hero he is.
I get Benny's gripes with how some writers interpret Red Hood. Reminds me of Doctor Doom. I prefer Hickman's and Zdarsky's interpretation of the character over whatever they're doing with him now. When they announced he was going back to being a villain, I knew they were going to throw out all of his development during the Secret Wars/Infamous Iron Man era just to make him a bad guy again. The worst part? That is Doom. Or what most people think of when they see Doctor Doom. I liked Chris Cantwell's Doom run because it was a mix of both, Status Quo and Infamous Iron Man, but yeah. To me, it is a bad time to be a Doom fan even if we're getting more stories now than years ago when the Fox and Marvel deal hadn't gone through yet. Just look at how pathetic and boring Dr Doom is on the recent Darkhold run. He's just there to make Scarlet Witch look strong and capable.
I definitely agree with this and I think this is why manga is becoming more popular then comics. You generally don't have 100 competing versions of the same character in manga. It's so much easier to get into a story with a beginning, middle and end. As opposed to comics which just go on forever.
It's not comics. It's marvel and DC. Image, Vertigo (now DC black label) Dark horse, IDW, BOOM studios, dynamite, aftershock Omni press, and many other comic publishers have been doing what manga has done for decades.
You can say the same thing about everyone who complained about Luke Skywalker. 30 years went by, shit happened. No one in the audience knows what he would or wouldn't do
Again it’s subjective but do people think Tom Hollands Peter Parker is the most hated of the 3 live action film Spider-men? I would argue that Garfield was especially since his run was cut short? Am I off base on that?
Red hood should be DCs punisher to batmans spider-man. Worse case scenario will team up but have completely different world views. I didnt read the run but it wouldve been interesting if jason teamed up with thomas thinking killing is better
I've always thought that comics NEED to have time pass naturally again and characters retire. There should be a big timeline with the major events and have a consistent rule of how much IRL time equals a year in the comics. Characters like Bruce should retire/die and stay that way Maybe bring them back for a special event, but putting the mask back on should be the special limited time event, not the norm like it is now. Cassandra Cain (realistically it would be Dick, but I've always perfered him being his own hero) should be the main bat of gotham. Wally should be getting ready to retire as the flash and pass it along again. Peter should be married with MJ and have thier kid while Miles took up full duty as NY's spiderman instead of just Harlem's.
This isn't a slight at Benny at all, but Toriyama isn't the best example for this. The dude consistently forgets he created characters and gave them completed arcs.
I thought this is going to be about the timeline issue on what's in continuity or not XD Yeah there's a lot of noticeable in fighting between anime and comic fans right now even when they're not competing over what's better ( really doesn't matter)
"really doesn't matter" you're right. It really doesn't. Comics are great and manga is great. Everything people have praised Manga for (consistency, story quality) image comics and other publishers outside of the big 2 have been doing for over 30 years.things that people criticize comics for doing, manga has done as well.
@@mttylerdurden9 and even a lot of the things I see people criticize Comics for, manga does the same, or they do better but there's always a " BUT" to it. The update more consistently than Comics because they're weekly, but because of that the author is an artist get sick much more frequently thanks to overwork, some unfortunately even die because of it, there was this massive delay a couple of months ago because a bunch of people at Shonen Jump were falling L left and right
My favorite version and run on the character of Batman was the Scott Snyder/Greg Capullo version. But even that version could not be perfectly brought back: Last Knight On Earth was not very good, nor did it match the tone of their original run. And, Dark Nights Death Metal was a mess, which did not come close to the consistency or quality of their original run or the first Dark Nights Metal. And both Last Knight On Earth and Dark Nights Death Metal did not recapture that same original characterization of Batman; when it did come close, it felt watered down and forced.
The more I watch these recent videos about the mentality of comic companies and shifting writers, the more I am PUT OFF reading comics. It's not your guy's fault, these videos are great and it's important to bring up and discuss these issues, but the issues with shifting writers and angry fans, and confusing to follow runs just makes me think it's not worth even trying to start getting back into comics. So I was thinking (and again no criticism about your current videos) maybe to counterbalance these, maybe an episode about each of your ideal versions of a character, and which story lines you'd follow going back as far as you can, to encourage people like me to go into the comic shops and seek something out. I KNOW someone is going to tell me to go to another channel or show that does that, maybe even with these guys in it, but I like the idea of it being here, in this forum to counterbalance the 'decline of the industry' talk. Plus a fun top for an episode, "What is everyone's favourite version of [insert character here]", just like Benny was saying about chip Zdarsky's Spider-man run - THAT moment got me to think, ohh I could maybe go back and follow that. Something similar for other characters would be great! Getting everyone's opinion so we can decide who we have the most similar taste to and try seek out 'Dan's favourite Blue Beetle run" etc. Just an idea, probably throwing it in to the void here, I'll keep watching anyway, would be nice to finish a video thinking, "YEAH! I want to go out the comic shop and pick up that!" instead of, "Ahh its pointless and confusing".
@@mttylerdurden9 That's a good point yeah. I guess I just LIKE the Marvel and DC rosta of characters, just wish it was easy to get into. Will check out so Dark Horse and Image stuff though, cheers.
I think its extra hard now to deage jon because whag would that mean regarding his bisexuality What will happen to Jay Nakamura? Will he be deaged Will 10-11 year old jon even be written as bisexual or will right wing media call it grooming? Like so much shit Either way i hope we live to the time when a retcon happens and damian and jon are like a year apart and wr get DamiJon Or next best thing, young justice gives us damijon since they are 1 year apart there
BENNY TRY ONE PIECE, IT"s LONG BUT IT's worth it, You will like it , try first 10 volumes if don't like it by chp 100, than it's not for you, but if do like it I would be very happy to see you join the one piece fan club, I have been following your content since 2018, You are one of Favorite youtubers, Love your content keep it up!!!
@@brace4impact258 just because something sells more doesn't mean it's better than anything else. If it did then that would mean 50 shades of grey is superior to Blade Runner 2049 Because it made more money
Benny just an fyi calling out Meghan fitzMartin as the hack writer she is. For turning Tim drake bi (he's gay amd not bi ) as " the only story I wanted to write for this character" and breaking up tim and Steph off panel to do so. Does not make me a bigot lol. That's a hack writer doing hack things
I think what people get most upset about is that characters never seem to keep any growth or even consistency. I know that Sal is not particularly fond of Damien but I think even he is annoyed that any growth is lost almost every single run.
It's not the same as consistent growth but this is why I like people who completely blow up and rebuild when they take over. Like Morrison or Hickmans Xmen. You don't get the satisfaction of a smooth transition but it's still nice to see a writer look at where they could be headed and just take them there instead of treading the same ground.
a comic character has to relearn the same lessons over and over again for every run because, there is a new writers that comes in and writes whatever they want: that's just the business of writing comics. i think it's a smarter move to think of runs on characters as, if you are reading for the writer not the character. like how many times does hulk have to be a monster, reed has to learn about family is important, batman should stop being an asshole, and spider-man trying to find the balance between two of his live etc. as sal stated, comics are cyclical.
@@johnthai6188 It doesn't have to be like that though. A new writer doesn't mean that what came before needs to be done away with, and there's even been writers who have maintained what came before. The only reason these characters constantly reset, is because the companies believe that the fans will react negatively if the status quo isn't maintained, and because of that fans often react negatively whenever there is an attempt to shake up said status quo. It's a cycle that neither readers nor the people in charge truly wanna break, and if we as readers want it to change, we've gotta start voting with our wallets.
@@johnthai6188 I get that. But I don't follow writers. Not a single one. I follow characters. I can tell you they I liked Spider Island but not who wrote it.
@@antoniuspoe9945 i guess what i mean is, when a new writer comes on, think about it as a new run not a continuation of the same character's journey. because different writers, have different ideas they want to write about. examples would be tom king's batman is different than scott snyder's batman, bendis's superman is different to PKJ's superman and greg rucka's wonder woman is different from azzarello's wonder woman.
To me, characters, who have been around long enough, have well defined 'souls', core fundamentals that make up who they are. So, Superman is a nice, friendly, cheerful, optimistic boyscout who mainly sees himself as a farmboy from Kansas, who greatest power is his moral compass/ethical wisdom, and always tries to do the right thing. Smaller contextual stuff or ideas about him like 'how would he react to some specific situation' can be left up to interpretation but those main aspects need to be there. And if they aren't, or a writer strays too far away from those things, there's a good chance a lot of people who know the character well enough will end up rejecting a take that doesn't have them.
here's an interesting question: is it ok for the character have to relearn the same lessons over and over again with each run? like spiderman trying to find the balance between his life, reed learning about family is important, bruce banner can never be happy and batman shouldn't keep everything to himself etc. is it bad writing that these character don't grow and mature?
@@johnthai6188 If a writer has a really new, creative, fresh spin on that specific character arc sure, you can probably get away with doing that. So long as its really well executed and the last guy didn't just do it. But if it's just the same bland repackage of the same story that's been told a million different times now it probably won't be well received. Because you are always being compared to what came before.
Comic characters are unique in that their stories are never ending. Some have been around for many decades. Which does leave room for someone to come in and put a different spin on an old idea once and awhile. But you can only get away with that so much before people want something genuinely new in terms of character development.
@@johnthai6188 it’s okay to a certain extent but also kind of just inevitable when a story goes on for this long. The simpsons have repeated a ton of ideas and they’ve been going what? Thirty years? Batman has gone on for like ninety years at this point, inevitably alot of ideas will repeat as a consequence of these characters never being allowed something everyone in real life have to deal with: an ending. So I don’t blame writers and artists repeating ideas tooooo much, but if it’s basically the same idea several runs in a row then I’ll say it may be creatively bland
Once again Sal is dropping knowledge! Also I love Tom Taylors Nightwing run, probably my favorite version next to the Jock and Snyder version were he is Batman! Also keep the DBZ references coming i love that shit!
Waitaminute, Benny, the Zur En Arrh failsafe was in the Grant Morrison Batman run in like 2009. That’s when it was made into a failsafe persona thing. Chip is using what came before.
I hate to say it but we need a Jim shooter or Julia Swartz in the editor position to keep everything consistent again. Feel like both companies have just let everyone run wild (but not in a good way) and left their history in the dust to build up their “new history” for the movies. Anything that’s old doesn’t matter as long as it works for the movies in 2 years
I love the MCU and the comics but you don't understand the fury I felt when I heard they were making ANOTHER Secret Invasion storyline just because the show is coming out soon 😭😭😭
@@Monikerpub civil war 2 character assassination bugaloo 😭
@@ianbruno237 Bruh Maria Hill about to racist for no reason 💀
No.... DC & marvel need to go back to only publishing 20 titles a month.
"Julia Swartz"...LOL love it...ol' Julie coming back as a woman would definitely be a perfect comeuppance for him...
I see both sides of the argument but when Nightwing remembers all his comic history it makes more sense for him to react the way he did
The argument about Damien really annoys me because you’re both completely right the next writer never builds off the previous version and I think Joshua Williamson’s 17 issue run is the perfect status quo for him other than Young deadly brat (but maybe I just have a bias as you also discussed)
In this day and age, nothing is canon while everything is canon. Tom King said in a recent interview with CBR that Riddler One Bad Day is canon or it isn't if people don't like it. His argument is that stories that take place in the future are canon because they will always take place in the future. I don't necessarily agree with that, but canon is generally based on how popular a book is. Killing Joke wasn't canon and then it was. I think that a story is canon only if it is referenced later. That's why everything is canon while nothing is canon.
I hit this epiphany after about the 50th debate I had about how Superman should be. I realized that, at the end of the day, every version of Superman is kosher. Necksnapping, helping cats out of trees, ripping people in half, being enemies with Batman, being friends with Batman. It's all Superman, and everyone is allowed to like an interpretation of Superman that agrees with them. I realized that if I want to enjoy my version of Superman consistently, I should just read All Might. Because All Might is my Superman, with all the fat trimmed out.
As Grant Morrison said "everything is Canon"
It's all about "wanting" to stay "relevant" in the Fandom conversation that will never end. Because the medium is about publishing content, as long as it sells and is popular.
So I don't get involved in the "Fandom conversation" I enjoy what I enjoy and don't read what isn't important.
This is the equivalent of telling a 5 year old, Santa isn't real.
The way I see it that it's like how sports fan love to backseat coach. A lot of comic fans like to fancy themselves as better writers and do back seat writers. Which is an easy thing to do when you have the hindsight and deal with multiple neckbreaking deadlines.
8:35 -8:40 you mean like Astro City,or Hellboy, or Saga,or fables,or Deadly Class,or The Walking Dead,or monstress, or invincible? or 100 bullets,or POWERS,or any American comics outside of the big 2 superheroes?
If you are referring to the, “one consistent writer” point then Walking Dead, 100 Bullets and Saga have been written by one person consistently. Some cases have the same penciler as well.
@@SuperMcgangbang yeah that's my point. All the Comics I've listed have just as much consistency as Manga, but people always forget that they're American comics outside of marvel and DC.
At the end of the day the real canon is the friends we made along the way
Without yet watching the video, I just wanna say the fact that this question has to be asked so much is why I’ve stopped reading DC (and a lot of marvel) and switched mostly to indie or at least self-contained comics.
Speaking of Indie comics, have you heard of the MASSIVE-VERSE?
This is what fanfiction is for. Don't like a version the main source writes your favorite character? Write a fanfic how you think they should behave.
Omg exactly! I've stopped caring about Canon for years, thanks to fanfiction. I'm just trying to enjoy myself without all the other stuff in the way.
Then when that fanfic writer gets lucky and is given an opportunity to write for that character theyll make their fanfic canon.
I consider Scott Snyder to be one of the Main cannons of Batman.
Perhaps there needs to be a new "format" for comic storylines/arcs. Maybe they need to take a TV show format where one individual creates the overall storyline with all the important stuff planned out. Then have individual comics like annuals and the main comic run written by writers who have to fall within that storyline and characterization of that character. That way at the very least you can have a decade of consistent characterization while you have one person over seeing the overall storyline going on at that time.
You can also look at it like the MCU too Kevin Feige runs MCU and he makes sure all the characters remain consistent and hit the right story beats at the right time while different writers and directors handle the individual movies
You guys have really been hitting it with this fandom talk. I like that we’ve reached this point where we can all step back and take a look at fandom. Nostalgia and the access to all of it at the same time has changed the way people view things. The need to compare is almost like a disease.
Very good point!
I think of character continuity the way of each writer has their own version. It's like Doctor Who, each new writer is a new Doctor.
I think there is more continuity within each writers ouvre. If you read every Grant Morrison you see the same themes explored from different directions depending on the character he is writing, and the same is true for most writers.
That's not what the big 2 are though, that's not how they built their brand. People don't buy comics for the writer, they buy to continue the journey with the character they've been reading for however long. The whole appeal to Marvel and DC is the massive scope of the stories, with large histories and lots of interconnectedness. That's what the comic buying audience goes to them for. Nobody is going to buy their favorite writer if continuity doesn't matter anymore. Once the MCU and DCEU crash, and the speculators bail, we'll see how much the audience has shrunk with this constant redefining approach. I suspect significantly
@@rickrivers2021 I buy based on writer or artist often. I've tried just collecting one character but when it hits a writer or artist that is just ok or bad, I'm like why am I spending money to slog through this writer just for continuity? The scope is a double edged sword, it makes reading everything straight through a character basically impossible, or just not the worth the time since a lot of it is going ot be mediocre to bad. You always have to pick and choose how you read western comics. I try to hit well known/liked backstories and ignore the rest.
@@Edlin261 My point is that the 'pick and choose readers' is a newer thing, and it's a smaller and more unstable audience. Publishers should be trying to get writers who work in continuity to keep the steady fans of a character happy. Instead they have the philosophy that every writer can have their own take, and as longterm fans are leaving the big 2 are increasingly reliant on speculators to stay afloat
@@rickrivers2021 It's a neat idea, but I'm not sure how they could pull it off. You'd either have to have one writer on for a loooooong time or like the way Hickman did Xmen where he has a continuity bible everyone follows, but of course he got poached by Substack and that continuity is already falling apart, so it's pretty hard to maintain.
Sort of why Dave Filoni, Jim Shooter and Kevin Feige are so special. One person who can maintain continuity among multiple writers projects and keep it enjoyable for a long time. It's a super rare talent.
You can definitely say that fictional characters handled by multiple writers are acting out of character. We do it with TV and movies all the time. Its a pretty natural part of artistic criticism or analysis, especially in serialized fiction. If fictional characters didn't have some core traits and defining characteristics then most writing would be meaningless if not outright gibberish. Marvel and DC have chosen and overtly stated that the characters we're reading about are, for the most part, the same ones from the 40s, 50s, and 60s. The fact that comics are the least profitable vertical of their parent companies, and therefor the least monitored, doesn't invalidate criticism of their product.
If I Were writing Red Hood, I'd make him internalize the Lazarus pit somehow and basically monkeys paw him with immortality. Being the Bat family's own "human target" taking bullets would be poetic justice for his past while giving him a unique skill for the Bat family.
Less canon and more the topic of “the sliding voice of characterization” but still a good discussion nonetheless
Toriyama has officially retired from DB, he's been working with a younger writer for all the Super manga as well and thats the person whose taking over.
Usually items that are considered canon come from the original source of the fictional universe while non-canon material comes from adaptations or unofficial items. In layman's terms, one could basically say that something that is canonical is something that "actually happened" in that universe.
I blame editorial for these problems.
An important message indeed. As someone who is sad we won't get Grant Morrison's interpretation of X-Men (X-Corp era), it ended with his seven volume run. It was MY X-Men, and I'm glad there will always be a separate era of X-Men for new or older fans to enjoy and follow.
Sal summed up why I don't enjoy comics(Marvel/DC) like I used to. Because their philosophy is "If continuity has to be sacrificed, it will." Then what's the point of reading it!? I get not having each run connect becauses creates its own issues. But do they always have to have the same story over and over again!? Every spider-man run begins and ends in the same way. Either have MJ and Pete married or DON'T!! But don't go back and forth like you have the balls to stick to a decision. Stories should have some kind of lasting consequence even if small.
it breaks my heart everyday we lost the super sons for garbage.
My favorite Batman book ever at this point in my life is Sean Murphy's White Knight series. I really enjoy all the new interpretations of all the classic characters, and I really appreciate the two Harleys. A clever way to dismiss the new style while preserving all the greatness of the original Harleen Quinzel character. I think this also fits into what you were saying about the birth and death of a creator's Batman. Really enjoy watching you guys!
If you ask me, comic books titles really need character bibals, that way they can avoid bad characterizations that either come from something dumb or out of nowwhere.
I've heard on many occasions that super heroes are the new Greek gods and in many ways that's true. Even Greek and Norse mythology had various interpretations that don't match up cohesively and it's basically up to us to cherry pick the parts we like.
14:26 "saying this is not the character is objectively wrong" proceeds to say this lol
Comic books are splitting in every direction because the lack of a good single leader in the company. A good yet cocky writer wants to write an almost stand-alone story does what they want, the story gets big, now we have another straying story.
It also seems to me that DC and Marvel are "throwing spaghetti to the wall and see what sticks". The more story you make the higher the likelihood of something to "stick" and bring in the "dough".
Then you also have animation, movie, tv, and video game adaptations. Which further cause a stray from the comics (main source). Justice league comic books is so much more different than the popular Justice League (2000s). But the 2000s justice league is also different from the 2010s animated Justice League. Then you also have the 2 different movies......
It's so difficult to determine what is Canon for a story/character anymore.
When you say Comics, are you talking about the Medium as a whole, or just Marvel and DC?
I've been thinking about this. As a red hood/Jason fan, but I love the softer and emotional moments. Not the dumb tank on a murder spree. But many fans love the villain Jason, and that's fine. I just like the zuko style redemption for Jason
Another video of sals passion burning through love hearing your guys discussions
Small note, but on the Red Hood digging Babs romantically in 3 Jokers, just to be fair, 3 Jokers didn’t start that. The weekly series Batman Eternal started that, however at the end of the book he doesn’t tell her. In fact I think he makes a note to her and either chooses not to give it to her, or some circumstance lead to her just not reading it or hearing it, I don’t remember. But I know that way predated 3 Jokers. So there’s SOME founding on Red Hood having a crush on Batgirl.
Agree with everything said. Used to be a big baby about it until I got older and everything was put into perspective. So this comment is basically for the algorithm
While I dropped DC comics my understanding is that a characters past is still in play, so Nightwing reacting to Batman's "death" in Gotham Knights, then later in JLA: Obsidian age when the League was killed and Dick was the new leader, then how he handled it in Morrison's Batman and Robin Reborn, I would think that now during Dark Crisis Dick is like been there
Done that
So it makes sense to me Dick doesn't mourn Batman's death because in his history he's lived through it all before.
For me as a comic reader, I was reading Batman for years with Starlin, Dixon, etc from 80s-90s to the 00s that's all the same character. Then when we reached the regression Era with John's and Winnick disbanding the Titans and Young Justice for Teen Titans and Outsider and bringing us Crisis after Crisis that's when it started to feel like characters weren't being written consistently with past portrayals
Every DC character has multiple personalities lol
This idea of every writer is there own universe is why I'm kinda ok with Williamsons DC universe being written at the same time as John's DC universe
Completely agree with Sal here. UtRH is a good story, but they never should’ve brought Jason Todd back in the regular continuity. One of the worst mistakes. I also agree with Benny though that if Red Hood is going to be around, he shouldn’t be in Gotham or part of the Bat-family.
At this point I genuinely want both Marvel and DC to do a clean slate reboot
I got really into Donny Cates’ Venom, it was just a perfect vibe for me, so that’ll always be Venom to me. His characterization in the Ewing/V/Hitch run is pretty consistent, though. It just adds a whole bunch of other wacky confusing nonsense lol
Also one of the few books I really liked red hood was task force z. It was a stupid as shit book, but having him there swinging dual wield crowbars was a good choice
Yeah. I LOVED Brian Michael Bendis' Daredevil. It's literally my favorite run in comics. There's other good runs later (and right after) but I know that I won't get that Daredevil again.
Akira Toriyama actually only does the outlines for Dragon Ball Super now, the anime staff gets his outline and then the dude who created Dragon Ball AF back in the day gets it too and writes/draws the manga off it
fantastic discussion
Agree 100% on the Jon Kent situation once Bendis took over from Jurgens and Tomasi.
I think head Canon is perfectly ok. It allows for an individual to have their personal attachment to a creation that others may not even consider, aswell as give closure to stories that may have been done dirty or canceled. BUT when head Canon collides with actual Canon, it's important to distinguish what you want to have happened and what actually happened. Like for instance, my head Canon for 2015 secret wars is that the universe completely reboots, which gives me a perfect jumping off the boat to end reading marvel comics if i wanted to. BUT that doesn't make sense if I want to read on with Hix men. I can give a personal head Canon but I know what I want isn't what's real.
When did Hercules "become" Hercules?Why is Beowulf, Beowulf? There can be many adoptions of Sun Wukong, but we all know what the character is about, how and why he acts. We agree now on the canon of these characters and stories but back when writers were just making Hercules stories, there were many wide and varying degrees of the character.
Comics are interesting because they are the modern mythologies but what makes the last century of Superman stories fascinating is that we've been writing those stories knowing that it's modern myth. All of our notions of canon comes not just from the ancients but also the scholars centuries after them complied the stories into a coherent narrative of character.
Modern writing is so heavily influenced by what we've learned but we also want to superspeed the process and also be the scholars and voice of authority when it comes to these characters and their worlds. But we don't have a solid canon. Think about this: what is the canonical Gotham City? What does it look like, how big is it, where is it-what makes Gotham, Gotham? We have aesthetic ideas of Gotham but not every story depicts Gotham the same. So much of comics are fluid, open to change (have no hard canon).
The only "real" canon in comics currently are the tropes of the most iconic characters. You can have Batman on an alien world fighting robots, but as long as he has 1) parents murdered in alley, 2) vow to avenge them, 3) no-kill/no-guns, 4) a batsuit - you can do anything with that character. And that's the main tag line of Elseworlds. Is Gotham by Gaslight Batman fighting Jack the Ripper any less canonical than him fighting mobsters in the 40s or the Joker? Batman has ranged from a psycho enlisting child soldiers in his war on crime to a loving father figure to an urban legend to world-known superhero. Are any of those versions of him more canonical than the others? No, but there can be iterations that are bad and completely miss the character (a Batman who kills is not Batman, that's something a majority of fans have concensus).
Canoncity in comics is an odd space to be. Many of these characters have been around long enough to have their own tropes, and have been rebooted, reworked, for every generation in multiple medias. That's also an intersection area, adoptions outside the page. Movies, tv, animation, games -these adoptions look to the source for inspiration, but we also see how these versions also influence the source their pulling from. Your idea of Batman likey is pulling in pieces from different media to patchwork your ideal version.
So then the canon of these characters becomes this meta-narrative of transmedia influence that varies person to person, time period to time period, media to media. A Batman movie is no less canonical than the current run in the comics. I don't know if this a postmodern phenomenon in the way our media and consumption of it has changed.
I personally like the Grant Morrison approach of its all canon, and who cares if the story you like took place before Crisis or any of the other reboots, you like it so it's canon to you.
American comics that are like Manga? One creator, one story? Savage Dragon. Erik Larsen's been working on it for 30+ years.
Most of Image comics really.
4:10 I see where you guys are going with your interpretations but to me he screams Falcon lol. Even some of his line delivery tries to come across like an Anthony Mackie impersonation.
Very fun discussion my guys!
I usually like to stay away from Gatekeepers(Sal named them perfectly) at the end of the day I read a story if I liked it I’ll get for my collection if I don’t then okay I’ll just move on the next one. Also Dan Slott is my favorite Spider-Man writer too.
The only issue with this is that akira toriyama is not only not the only person writing dragonball anymore, but I would argue he’s a terrible example anyway. The man profoundly does not understand his own characters nor does he care to. This is the author that has forgotten whole characters and well known character traits repeatedly. He has to be reminded fairly often that sayans even had tails.
Cold we get a blade watch/review? I think it'd be interesting and watching "old" superhero movies to see if they hold up or are good. Maybe watchmen. i know you guys already have alot on your plate so just an idea.
JMD IS STILL GOING BLESS HIS HEART!
Loved his Justice League. Man doesn't get enough credit.
Love discussions like this
Amazing discussion Benny and Sal on how the different characterization of a character is acted differently from each creator.
>>> With each new comic creative, the better version is the character "over there" because... 🤔. Where the discussion ends is when fandom outrage slams.
🤔👉 Sorry going to spew a rant. I am just putting my position as a noob to comics:::
Being somewhat new to reading comics, I find it is hard to follow some characters work. I am not sure, but as much a character's origin/history is retcon, reboot, re-imagined, or reassigned (gender or orientation), one thing I would hope is constant is the character's core trait and personality. Unfortunately pisses and greatly gives joy is when a fan says my version is the best and yours is trash.
Each fan has different entry point. For me was the animated (BTAS and Teen Titans) stuff. So, I like Dick Grayson/Robin/Nightwing because that I am reading Tom Taylor's current run. I love his adventures and heroism in the current run and I cannot imagine it ending. But I am boggled by when peeps say it is simple trash. Then, (going backwards) I hear Ric was trash, the Rebirth Nightwing was trash, the post-Flashpoint New 52 Grayson and Nightwing was trash, post-Crisis Nightwing was the best of all bite me and forget Teen Titans/Titans, Bronze, Silver, and Gold Grayson is trash. LoL (that being said cannot wait for Nightwing 100 🤩 hope to see a nice ties to the legacy).
😉 I am learning to appreciate Jason/Robin 2/Red Hood because of last year's Nightwing annual - very cool and hope to see that characterization of Jason consistent in other book or media forms.
Lastly, I find it more cringe is how the change in some characters or some mantle swaps? The characters are Jon Kent, Tim Drake, and Tim Jace Fox. I do not know much about Jon, I know peeps are rageful of his aged up and orientation, but I feel accepting of Jon's character development. On the case of Tim Drake, I know solely by animated series. I know he is a teenager and "the best detective” (…sadly, I find Tim is boring and just is flat character). However, with this “creative” current run I feel like the character is being forced fed: Tim is "the best Robin” as trademark, he is his sexual orientation, and (nothing to with character persona) I do not get why I am puking and poking eyes looking at the art style to depict Tim and the most bizarre Robin book to date. (Why could Tim’s persona be built better and get out of Gotham…?) As the mantle of a hero, I am also so confused why this Next Batman because Bruce is alive why is this still going on and has Bruce or Batman Inc. got to Jace Fox and say "we do not approve you are Batman go make your own hero name and identity."
Hahaha.
Thanks - sorry for super long rant, but I love this conversation was the best! Laters. 👏😃
As someone who is a fanfiction reader and hasn't cared about canon for years, this is a pretty interesting topic 🤔 thanks for the discussion 👍
Nightwing is difficult for me because I always interpreted him and Bruce to have a mentor mentee relationship which tends to have elements of brother to brother and father son mix. However everyone else prefers a straight father to don relationship
Even Grant Morrison said they see Dick Grayson as Batman's Little brother.
Is Harry Osborns mum still alive Canon?
Only comic books or manga, next question
To bennys point: the answer is the current writer determines what’s canon
To sals point: he’s right about wade
I got into comics binge-reading on Marvel Unlimited, not by reading a particular era, but by regularly reading decades worth of material in a month.
The idea that we should accept a character being redefined each run is absurd to me. It's clearly an idea that's been pushed over the last 30 or so years, but not very successfully. Fans either don't like it or just forget about it because it's out of place in their heads.
Ultimately, it is the writer's responsibility to build their take on the character into the canon organically, and if it doesn't fit, their take is just definitively bad.
Waid's Daredevil may be a complete tonal shift from the three decades leading up to it, but it worked because he does the legwork to make Matt's changes seem like a natural evolution, a response to what past writers had done. Heck, Miller's DD run was the same way, if you ignore the continuity shattering 'Man without Fear' mini. Writers shouldn't ever ignore past character development, but instead build on it. And they should always stay true to the heart of the character, which has been established over the decades with numerous respected runs.
Damian's problem is that DC keeps trying to turn him evil. The last TT run was done to take Damian 2 steps back forcing him to lose the Robin mantle so he can be bif baddie for 5g. I don't get why they just can't let him be the hero he is.
I get Benny's gripes with how some writers interpret Red Hood. Reminds me of Doctor Doom. I prefer Hickman's and Zdarsky's interpretation of the character over whatever they're doing with him now. When they announced he was going back to being a villain, I knew they were going to throw out all of his development during the Secret Wars/Infamous Iron Man era just to make him a bad guy again. The worst part? That is Doom. Or what most people think of when they see Doctor Doom.
I liked Chris Cantwell's Doom run because it was a mix of both, Status Quo and Infamous Iron Man, but yeah.
To me, it is a bad time to be a Doom fan even if we're getting more stories now than years ago when the Fox and Marvel deal hadn't gone through yet. Just look at how pathetic and boring Dr Doom is on the recent Darkhold run. He's just there to make Scarlet Witch look strong and capable.
I definitely agree with this and I think this is why manga is becoming more popular then comics. You generally don't have 100 competing versions of the same character in manga. It's so much easier to get into a story with a beginning, middle and end. As opposed to comics which just go on forever.
It's not comics. It's marvel and DC. Image, Vertigo (now DC black label) Dark horse, IDW, BOOM studios, dynamite, aftershock Omni press, and many other comic publishers have been doing what manga has done for decades.
I like the Nightwing that listens to Filipino music.
You can say the same thing about everyone who complained about Luke Skywalker.
30 years went by, shit happened. No one in the audience knows what he would or wouldn't do
Again it’s subjective but do people think Tom Hollands Peter Parker is the most hated of the 3 live action film Spider-men? I would argue that Garfield was especially since his run was cut short? Am I off base on that?
Red hood should be DCs punisher to batmans spider-man. Worse case scenario will team up but have completely different world views. I didnt read the run but it wouldve been interesting if jason teamed up with thomas thinking killing is better
Funnily enough, I've seen a lot of Dragon Ball fans argue against the words of Akira Toriyama, lol
Great discussion
Benny hasn't read JMS Spiderman
Sad day for a comic book channel
This is why having an in universe continuity in this day and age is pointless and counter-productive
I've always thought that comics NEED to have time pass naturally again and characters retire. There should be a big timeline with the major events and have a consistent rule of how much IRL time equals a year in the comics. Characters like Bruce should retire/die and stay that way Maybe bring them back for a special event, but putting the mask back on should be the special limited time event, not the norm like it is now. Cassandra Cain (realistically it would be Dick, but I've always perfered him being his own hero) should be the main bat of gotham. Wally should be getting ready to retire as the flash and pass it along again. Peter should be married with MJ and have thier kid while Miles took up full duty as NY's spiderman instead of just Harlem's.
it's like ur making a what if story
This isn't a slight at Benny at all, but Toriyama isn't the best example for this. The dude consistently forgets he created characters and gave them completed arcs.
Like launch?
I thought this is going to be about the timeline issue on what's in continuity or not XD
Yeah there's a lot of noticeable in fighting between anime and comic fans right now even when they're not competing over what's better
( really doesn't matter)
"really doesn't matter" you're right. It really doesn't. Comics are great and manga is great. Everything people have praised Manga for (consistency, story quality) image comics and other publishers outside of the big 2 have been doing for over 30 years.things that people criticize comics for doing, manga has done as well.
@@mttylerdurden9 and even a lot of the things I see people criticize Comics for, manga does the same, or they do better but there's always a " BUT" to it. The update more consistently than Comics because they're weekly, but because of that the author is an artist get sick much more frequently thanks to overwork, some unfortunately even die because of it, there was this massive delay a couple of months ago because a bunch of people at Shonen Jump were falling L left and right
Heh but there ARE things that are immutable aspects of characters and luckily they are set in stone for the most part
My favorite version and run on the character of Batman was the Scott Snyder/Greg Capullo version. But even that version could not be perfectly brought back: Last Knight On Earth was not very good, nor did it match the tone of their original run. And, Dark Nights Death Metal was a mess, which did not come close to the consistency or quality of their original run or the first Dark Nights Metal. And both Last Knight On Earth and Dark Nights Death Metal did not recapture that same original characterization of Batman; when it did come close, it felt watered down and forced.
I like that "better corpse than a character". That will forever be my feeling about Barry Allen.
The more I watch these recent videos about the mentality of comic companies and shifting writers, the more I am PUT OFF reading comics. It's not your guy's fault, these videos are great and it's important to bring up and discuss these issues, but the issues with shifting writers and angry fans, and confusing to follow runs just makes me think it's not worth even trying to start getting back into comics.
So I was thinking (and again no criticism about your current videos) maybe to counterbalance these, maybe an episode about each of your ideal versions of a character, and which story lines you'd follow going back as far as you can, to encourage people like me to go into the comic shops and seek something out. I KNOW someone is going to tell me to go to another channel or show that does that, maybe even with these guys in it, but I like the idea of it being here, in this forum to counterbalance the 'decline of the industry' talk. Plus a fun top for an episode, "What is everyone's favourite version of [insert character here]", just like Benny was saying about chip Zdarsky's Spider-man run - THAT moment got me to think, ohh I could maybe go back and follow that. Something similar for other characters would be great! Getting everyone's opinion so we can decide who we have the most similar taste to and try seek out 'Dan's favourite Blue Beetle run" etc.
Just an idea, probably throwing it in to the void here, I'll keep watching anyway, would be nice to finish a video thinking, "YEAH! I want to go out the comic shop and pick up that!" instead of, "Ahh its pointless and confusing".
You could always read Image comics or Dark horse comics
@@mttylerdurden9 That's a good point yeah. I guess I just LIKE the Marvel and DC rosta of characters, just wish it was easy to get into. Will check out so Dark Horse and Image stuff though, cheers.
Wasn't Dragon Ball Super being written by someone else for a time?
Toriyama still works with them and created some of the arcs but there are new writers who took over when super started. He kinda passed the torch
I think its extra hard now to deage jon because whag would that mean regarding his bisexuality
What will happen to Jay Nakamura? Will he be deaged
Will 10-11 year old jon even be written as bisexual or will right wing media call it grooming? Like so much shit
Either way i hope we live to the time when a retcon happens and damian and jon are like a year apart and wr get DamiJon
Or next best thing, young justice gives us damijon since they are 1 year apart there
There is no canon.
I feel like sal is conflating the issue into something else completely
I agree sal 100th
Does it even matter?
Do you?
I have and always think agent of shield and. Punisher's is cannon to the mcu
BENNY TRY ONE PIECE, IT"s LONG BUT IT's worth it, You will like it , try first 10 volumes if don't like it by chp 100, than it's not for you, but if do like it I would be very happy to see you join the one piece fan club, I have been following your content since 2018, You are one of Favorite youtubers, Love your content keep it up!!!
👍
Comment for algorithm.
This is partly why I don’t read comics anymore. It’s just all a mess.
Marvel and DC sure, but comics outside of the Big 2 don't have these problems ( Image comics, Dark horse,Boom studios, IDW,)
@@mttylerdurden9 true true
this right here is why I don't read comics and feel that manga is superior
apples and oranges bud
Manga is NOT superior, and their are WAY more options for comics than marvel and DC.
@@mttylerdurden9 It definitely is. The sales numbers help to prove that, but to each there own.
@@brace4impact258 if sales determine success, according to your own reasoning, Hello Kitty is Peak Fiction
@@brace4impact258 just because something sells more doesn't mean it's better than anything else. If it did then that would mean 50 shades of grey is superior to Blade Runner 2049 Because it made more money
Only right answer for Batman is anything voiced by Kevin conroy😂
Benny just an fyi calling out Meghan fitzMartin as the hack writer she is. For turning Tim drake bi (he's gay amd not bi ) as " the only story I wanted to write for this character" and breaking up tim and Steph off panel to do so. Does not make me a bigot lol. That's a hack writer doing hack things