@@matro2I mean that’s not correct though, Robert won the throne through right of conquest the exact same way that Aegon did hundreds of years ago. If Dany wants the throne she needs to take it as she doesn’t exactly have a right to it anymore. Stannis being Robert’s true legitimate next in line means he is the rightful king.
@@matro2 No because tommen is not the legitimate ruler as he’s a bastard. We’re talking about “rightful” king here and that by all accounts is Stannis. He’s literally Robert’s heir
Stannis is also funny af. When he finds out that Gilly's baby is Kraster's as well and Kraster is Gilly's father and he says "Send them away. This isn't King's Landing" Hilarious 💀😂
Very ironic indeed. But I think that what bothers Stannis is the fact that he knows that Robert never actually did that deliberately. If Robert did make him his heir, it was by pure (or ironic?) coincidence. 😭
Joffrey, Myrcella & Tommen weren't alive/born back then, so Stannis was 2nd in line, and Robert's heir. Part of why he got given Dragonstone@@thecriticalmaester9702 Personally I think Robert would've made Edric Storm (highborn bastard) his heir, if he knew the truth about Cersei's kids
Dont forget his great linguistical/grammatical skills! Davos: "Its four less finger nails to clean." Stannis: "Fewer." Nightswatch men: "Let them die! Less enemies for us." Stannis: "Fewer."
Another thing I find admirable about Stannis. He is the ONLY leader so far that has actually shown a general interest in DEFENDING the realms! He actually went to the wall and defeated Mance. And while unsuccesfull, he is trying to garner support in the north by showing interest in their struggles. Of course he has personal reasons for doing it, but we also know he takes the prophecy of the prince that was promised serious and sees it as his duty. I think that is more than just admirable. Despite being by far the weakest of the 5 kings after the battle of blackwater, he kind of put his war on hold to go north. I reapect that immensely
I think Stannis is interesting because he lives by a moral code and strict principles (specific to himself though they might be) like the ideal champion of the gods would in this world. At the same time, he puts the gods by the wayside, proudly stating his disbelief in them, and chooses to take up with Melisandre and the Red God because the reality of their power is evident. Stannis' god is power, and he's the man to wield it.
I also think people love him because he’s introduced by someone who does love him. Maester Cressen. Sure we get little hints about what Stannis is like before that, but he first appears on page from Maester Cressens POV. We associate really sad and unfortunate stories with Stannis, and relate to his struggle to be rewarded for his hard work. And then we continue to see him from the POV of Davos for much of his story, another person who cares for him emotionally. Jon and Catelyn are neutral parties at best in terms of how they feel about him. Wary but willing to work with him essentially. It makes it hard to accept how dark some of his actions really are. Since we are primed to like him and be on his side.
@@tetrahedron9196 Well, I’m not sure I can make a good argument for any of his arguably ‘dark’ moments, since I feel he was justified in most cases. When he was holding Storms End during Roberts rebellion, three men committed treason and tried to allow the attackers access. Stannis had to be talked out of sending them to the side of the wall they seemed to prefer by trebuchet. I mean, I love it. It’s extreme but the punishment fits the crime. But he was 17 or so at the time, and had Renly to look out for. That’s a heck of an example to set. Then, still around 17 or so, he renders his judgement on Davos. Which, again, Davos accepted it and seemed to feel fine about it… but like, that’s a bit extreme. Stannis was seriously considering sacrificing Edrick Storm. A nephew, so it’s kinslaying, and an innocent, someone he’s supposed to protect. In this case I think it’s good that Davos stepped in, because if somehow it had ‘worked’, Shireen would have been burned by now. It’s a slippery slope man. I just sometimes wonder what a character more distant would have to say, about events Davos talks about. What would someone less fond of Stannis say about the siege? Would I still be able to think of him as justified? Or does he need that positive attachment of those characters to make me like him. Because nobody freaking likes him, except for all his fans lol And even from Davos’ perspective it’s not hard to see how people pass him off as a ‘Dark Lord’ type.
@@ratgirl34 That's just man stuff. Only after the second WW did the concept of a teenager arise. At 17 in his society he is well and truly into adulthood with all the responsabilities involved, especially since his parents were gone. That is his primary greivance with Renly, that as the youngest brother he never had to shoulder the burden as much as the other two brothers. In a way it speaks for itself that for 20ish years he has been among the most capable and involved military leaders in Westeros and the worst even his enemies can say of him is that he is too "just' and too stubborn.
@@tetrahedron9196 Well, you asked. I provided instances and possible reasons why someone could say it’s dark. I said outright I couldn’t steel man any of them.
It's worth pointing out that Cressen did not object to flinging the traitors over the walls by trebuchet on moral grounds but rather on pragmatic grounds because with no relief from the siege in sight they may have needed to eat the prisoners to survive.
Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. Stannis pointed north. “There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight” - The king who cares🦌
That is one of my favorite monologues in the series. It is rare for nobility to consider the opinions of a commoner let alone a smuggler. It really made me angry that the show just threw that out cause the showrunners hated stannis
Rob wanted revenge and fight for his kingdom but he forgot his home and people. The Stark way is to protect your people and not playing the game of thrones, Stannis acted more like a Stark then Robb did when he fought for the north. He was described as iron by the one-handed smith, he's a Stark at heart.
The relationship between Stannis and Lord Davos are the one of the rare relationship where a High Lord considers a peasant as a friend, Stannis misses Davos when he is not near him, and Davos is the only one able to make Stannis smile, which in Stannis case is grinding his teeth a little less.
@@Ironcorgi2funnily enough Staniss' actor hated stannis he had no idea what the hell the story was about but he gave it his all and became a fan favorite, which is honestly the mist staniss thing imaginable
He’s also one of the funniest characters without trying to be. Renly:”You’ll be happy to know she came to me a maid(virgin)” Stannis: ”In your bed she likes to die one too”
He is looking at me, Jon thought, stunned. "Winterfell is no more. Theon Greyjoy put it to the torch." "Granite does not burn easily," Stannis said. "The castle can be rebuilt, in time. It's not the walls that make a lord, it's the man..."
“Lord Ramsay is the one Your Grace should fear.” "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm’s End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
@@DolphineAchonga-gn6kn He can't at this point. The fans love stannis way too much for him to lose to a non-MC. George will have to do it exceptionally well for that to happen. He will most probably circumvent that by him winning the battle and dying in the process or through some other means, but he most certainly will not die in a battle he lost. he is too good lore-wise and fan loyalty-wise.
@@DolphineAchonga-gn6kn He can't at this point. The fans love stannis way too much for him to lose to a non-MC. George will have to do it exceptionally well for that to happen. He will most probably circumvent that by him winning the battle and dying in the process or through some other means, but he most certainly will not die in a battle he lost. he is too good lore-wise and fan loyalty-wise.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Seriously! The funny thing is he's probably one of the most abrasive characters in the story, yet I think he'd make a very good King in terms of being just and enforcing the law of the land.
Of course that's great and all but don't forget he literally didn't have anywhere else to go except die at the gates of kings landing. Also they sent letters many times and the one Davos read was an old letter that was ignored at first (though I think his former hand is to be blamed for that)
In the books he isn't much of a R'hllor extremist its Selyse who is he just sees it as a means to an end so most likely it'll be Selyse and Melisandre who burn Shireen without Stannis knowledge.
Stannis is an atheist. He says that he couldn't worship any gods who would kill his parents in front of him like that. This is followed by a story of how he saved an injured hawk as a child but the hawk could never soar and Robert mocked him for it, then this: Stannis Baratheon turned away from the window, and the ghosts who moved upon the southern sea. "The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk." Later in Melisandre's chapter she thinks about how men like Jon and Stannis don't worship the gods they follow in name. Rather duty is their god.
@@Vmac1394Very true,he even doesnt buy into melisandres leech story. When she and his entire council(minus Davos ofc) claim that Rhllor killed Rob stark he says "Is Rhllors hand spotted and palsied?This seems more Walder freys handywork than any gods".
@@Vmac1394I would say that, despite what Mel says, Jon at the very least believe in the Old Gods, considering he thought that Ghost belonged to the Old Gods due to his weirdwood-like appareance
Ironically, Robert gave quite a lot of thought to giving Stannis the Dragonstone. He knew the Targaryen loyalists there would be dangerous and needed someone strict and resilient to rule over them.
I don't think that Stannis saw it that way, especially since Robert hated the Targaryens so much. Stannis would never think that Robert would follow a Targaryen custom whilst still despising that House in the way that he did. But I agree with you nonetheless. Stannis was best suited to hold Dragonstone, and Renly was best suited to be the lord of Storm's End. Renly is charming and way more likeable, so it would've been easier for the stormlords to grow accustomed to him. But I still feel bad for Stannis. It must've felt like a slap in the face to have his brother do that to him.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 it would’ve made more sense for Robert to name Stannis Lord of Storm’s End and Dragonstone until he had an heir come of age. If Joffrey had been named Prince of Dragonstone at birth, then Stannis would just be the Lord of Storm’s End, but Stannis could have ruled as acting Lord of Dragonstone until Joffrey came of age, which would have opened up Storm’s End for Renly to rule as acting Lord until Stannis’ return. This would have kept both brothers where Robert wanted them without him giving away Stannis’ birthright as Lord of the Stormlands.
@@warpedwhimsical If only Robert had known that Joffrey wasn't his, then he could've made Stannis his Hand in order to prepare him as king. It then would've been fine to make Renly the lord of Storm's End. But all of these are just me crying over spilled milk... 😭
We are told Stannis never bends, that his will is unbreakable. That he is as tough and brittle as iron. Yet all he ever does throughout this tale is compromise. Pragmatism is his virtue, and honesty is his curse. When does he compromise, you might ask? He doesn’t bring Melisandre to the Blackwater, he doesn’t execute Davos, he realises he would be wrong to besiege and massacre the Celtigars after Blackwater, he sails North when all he wishes is to take the Iron Throne, he doesn’t actually burn Mance, he listens to the bastard boy Jon Snow on matters he is knowledgeable about, he learns not to demand fealty in exchange for pardons, but earn it through respect and even in TWOW sample chapters, he hasn’t executed Theon or Asha even though it would appease the Northern lords AND refuses to burn people because it would alienate half his forces. This is all off the top of my head, btw. I’m sure i’m missing a few things. Now, after reading that, tell me who the True Steel should be. Robert? He was hard, sure, strong, sure, but when it came time to change from warrior to ruler, to adapt, did he bend? No. He broke, That sounds like iron. Stannis? He takes hits. Did Kings Landing shatter him? No. He rebounded, sailed North and crushed an army with twenty times his number. Did he keep demanding loyalty? No. He visited lowly Northern Clansmen to earn it himself. Did he turn to the flames when the snows piled high as hills in his path? No. Stannis the Mannis, the King who Cared, the One True Ruler of Westeros! STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS!
One other thing: In GRRM´s story many of the main protagonists are half magical beings or beings touched by magic (Dany getting her Dragons, Bran, Jon, Arrya, Sansa etc. warging, green dreaming, learning facelessmen-magic) .. while Stannis, well he is just a "very normal" human - but with iron willpower. The reader gets a very clear picture that he is very "none-magical" by nature, highlighted by his fake fire-sword. He does not seem to be destined by gods or fate to play a big role - being a second son, the unloved and unwanted, the none-magical one, the unlucky .. but he bounces back, again and again, being THE TRUE STEEL that Robert never was
As other people are pointing out in the comments, Stannis isn't the vaccuum of charisma that everyone claims him to be. He's hilarious in a bitter sardonic way and treats everyone fairly. The issue that all the highborn have with him in the book is that he doesn't flatter EVER. So to the arrogant and useless nobility of King's landing he has no charisma because they're used to being flattered and double talk but to the readers he's an ass but an honest one in a world of snakes. Another thing is that he's the only King candidate that acts like a King should. Joffrey is obviously terrible, Tommen is a child, Rob was a great commander but didn't know how to negotiate the political landscape (He never should have made that deal with the Freys. Imagine Stannis or Tywin in his position at the twins, would they ever agree to such a lopsided deal with an ally's vassal?). Renly was a thief and a backstabber who didn't even have a theoretical claim and Balon wasn't really much of an entity. Even if we go further than the traditional 5 kings, and include other major players everyone else falls short of what a King should be. Robert was neglectful of his duties, Tywin was a brilliant player but too cruel and judgemental to be considered fair, Daenarys is doing the best she can but clearly has not figured out how to rule yet, and Euron is straight up evil. Only Stannis is strong enough to win wars, just enough to judge fairly and astute enough to avoid the vipers. In a meta sense I think George doesn't really understand his own character because George is a bit of a hippy and Stannis is the exact opposite of that so he personally dislikes Stannis' character. But a driven, ruthless and honest man is very admirable in a lot of ways, especially in Westeros.
@@michakoniecpolski5677 that's a good point I forgot about him. I'd say he certainly looks like he'd be a good king but we haven't had a chance to see him prove himself fully.
@@ShandoGuardian Lots of good points. Also Stannis' marriage hinders his position. But I don't think George dislikes him. He often writes about characters with widely different personalities or ethics from his own.
George loves his Stannis Baratheon, Shando, & even picks him out as the best King of Westeros claimant in an interview. He talks about how its not always 'the good man' who makes 'the good King' and its clear he's written his Kingship material traits very deliberately, as Stannis is sort of a Proto-Constitutionalist (rights go both ways, and not even Kings are above Law)
Stannis being a good father to his daughter also makes him likeable as well (not including what happens in the show until the book comes out). Her mother hates her for her disfiguring disease but Stannis still loves her in his awkward way. The iron with heart
@@henrylupkes211Maybe because he is never actually seen interacting with his daughter Shireen on page in the books and rarely mentions her at all, thus giving the appearance that he ignores her more often than not. But while it might get lost among his more unpleasant character traits, he IS a decent parent who wants what's best for her. He makes sure that Shireen receives a proper education and keeps Patchface around because she likes him, even if the jester is a living reminder of the shipwreck that killed his parents. While his behavior is pragmatic in a sense (it's unlikely that he and Selyse will have another heir, and so Shireen must become an adequate ruler), on the whole he still comes across as a one of the better parents in Westeros.
@@VictorIV0310"he isn't actively abusive" is not a compelling argument to say he's a good parent. If that's the best you can say about his parenting, it's quite obvious he's a bad father
@@alexjames7144Maybe he's too occupied with his cause. This is life or death for him and his family, constantly. I am sure if he were to be at peace, ruling preferably, Shireen would not be lacking in any way. She'd have the safety, education, resources and everything else Stannis would want to give her. Unfortunately we've only seen him when his mind is a literal warzone, and for good reason. When he succeeds, he can be the full-time father you'd want him to be
@@eyegaiminhd He joined the war by choice. It would have been the easiest thing ever to just not contest the throne. Nobody forced him, he just wanted to.
"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless." The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead - " " - you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt." "We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his Warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the Bastard with his right. I am not Robert. But we will march, and we will free Winterfell … or die in the attempt." - Stannis Baratheon ALL HAIL STANNIS BARATHEON! THE ONE TRUE KING OF WESTEROS! AND THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!
I find the fact Stannis gave Renly a chance to surrender is actually quite significant. It is a noticeable break from his stern and unwavering code. You can see his emotional connections to family just under the surface.
He really does have a bias towards his family that conflicts with his strictness. When Robert rebelled, Stannis wrestled between his duty to the throne and his duty to his family. Thankfully he chose family.
Robert risked the life of his entire house because the girl he met a couple days ago ran off with a handsome prince. Stannis wouldve been insane to not question that.
@@user-tb6ye3jv3z Ned had every reason to rebel, but lets not pretend like Roberts primary goal was to get justice for House Stark. Stannis was smart to not rush into a civil war with the Targs, Martells, Tyrells (and Lannisters?). The possibility that Rhaegar steps in and tries a diplomatic approach wasnt out of the window yet.
He's not just the rightful king. Despite being considered "Iron, unbending", he's surprisingly flexible and forgiving. Despite being part of one of the oldest families, his best friend and confidante is a lowborn former smuggler and he shows many times how clever and strong he is. He's not some stupid religious zealot, he makes the right decisions(using blood magic aside, only two people died rather than thousands in what could have been destructive to both sides) and only fails on the Blackwater because of Robb Stark not explaining his plans to Edmure Tully. Three times, Melisandre and Selyse Florent beg him to murder Edric Storm and all three times, Stannis refuses, saying that Edric is not to blame, that Melisandre said the leeches would work and he immediately takes Davos's words to heart when two of the Kings Melisandre's "leeches"killed died, saying "two is not three". Even when Joffrey dies, Stannis forces Melisandre to swear that what she's saying is true or he'll murder her with his bare hands. Later, he allows Jon to convince him not to take the Wildlings and allows Jon to give him ideas, first gaining the loyalty of the mountain clans(despite him apparently being far from diplomatic), second defeating Asha Greyjoy and returning Deepwood Motte to House Glover and gaining the loyalty of many House's(including the Mormont's, who swore to only follow a Stark). Stannis is far better than many consider him, especially idiotic show runners who don't understand the character.
I don't think that Dumb and Dumber truly understood the character - or any of the characters tbh with you. I think that their goal was just to reach the Red Wedding and probably Tywin's death, and everything else in between (subplots, themes and characters) was just ignored. 😭
Some other things that contribute to making Stannis so compelling: - he has Davos Seaworth, one of the best and most likeable POV characters. - he has Dragonstone, one of the coolest castles in ASoIaF. - he has access to badass dark magic - everything about him is just tragic in some way. His wife's glum and depressed, his daughter is a wretched freak, his court feels drab and lackluster, his armies gets defeated, he has almost no friends, his mistress is a chtulhoid horror kinda person... like, if this was in Crusader Kings 3, all his court would have the "Melancholic", "Barren" and "Ugly" traits...it's like a menagerie of miserable people. Compare to Doran Martell's court in Dorne, where everyone is like a passionate olive-skinned hottie full of joi de vivre and the point-of-view character is a buxom, sultry vixen. Stannis POV, meanwhile, is a miserable, lowborn middle-aged man in drab clothes. In Dorne, they eat lemon cake and delicious tapas, on Dragonstone they eat turnips and porridge. It's like, everyone else in ASoIaF is somehow magnificent. But Stannis' whole faction is just gritty, awkward and sad. Melisandre is basically the only hot person on Dragonstone. Compare to why so many people like the Nosferatu clan in the Vampire - the Masquerade roleplaying game. It's a world of seductive undead masterminds of etheral beauty and dark majesty, yet the Nosferatu, cursed with horrible ugliness, hide in the sewers as sad freaks preoccupied with information brokering and talking to animals. There's a certain, large, demography of players who really love that. Stannis is the Nosferatu of ASoIaF. The dark, tragic underdog.
What I like about him the most is he isn't bullshitter, in this world of intrigue. As others say, he is the more dark version of Ned Stark. He is simply following the law and claiming his right. He deals with traitors and schemers ruthlessly. He rewards those like Davls Seaworth who have true loyalty. I hope he doesn't die if Winds of Winter ever comes out. Because really Weseros needs a strong king like Stannis.
Unfortunately, he probably will. If GRRM killed off Robb, he will absolutely kill Stannis. I just hope he doesn't die to the Boltons or gets his character arc ruined like it was in the show.
I read the books after the show and I can say I experienced Stannis sooo differently. I remember most of the time reading the books I was praying for Stannis chapters and dreading all the Danaerys chapters xd
In the first book I very quickly got sick and tired of flipping the page and seeing the word “Daenerys”, and playing the game “how long till she’s getting viciously pounded by Drogo” with myself (she is 13 in the first book btw). Did we really need the arc of 13 year old Dany bleeding and crying from getting stretched by Drogo’s big Dothraki horsec0cc and then finally starting to enjoy it? GRRM absolutely had a chubby writing those chapters.
@@GrubHuncher funny that you described the horrible thing that happened that doesnt need to be described lol the whole point of those chapters is to build the world, a world that is fucking horrific. if you absolutely despise those chapters then they served the purpose of them 100%
The complete Irony of Stannis is how he says they’ll never love me like how they loved Robert and Renly. Anyone that Stannis Baratheon has won over stays with him through thick and thin. The dude is the Black Coffee of the Baratheon Brothers. Robert is cream and sugar and Renly can be the frozen macchiato with extra whip cream and caramel drizzle with an espresso shot.
One thing I never see people mention is how Stannis is the only lord in westeros that wants to change the society to me more meritocratic. He promotes Davos despite his low birth and makes him his hand and he did this despite how much it angered the other lords. A big part of why medieval societies are unjust by design is the lack of social mobility, lords are born into power whilst peasants will never get the chance to hold power despite how competent they might be. Stannis is willing to go against the rest of the high borns and promote Davos shows he values competency and loyalty over birthright. This is why I love Stannis, he's not only just in the since he wants to root out corruption, he is fixing systemic injustice of his medieval society.
It's not 'unjust by design', entrenched nobility and lack of upwards social mobility are the enveitable end result of a meritocratic system, eventually the skills and resources to succeed (ie merit) get pooled into an aristocracy, which either just outcompetes all competition or uses that overwhelming power to pull the ladder up behind them. Medieval societies were designed to be meritocratic, but like all meritocratic systems they became less so over time. In medieval Europe in and before 1000AD anyone could become a noble, and was Orginally 100% 'meritocratic' by modern standards, and being born to nobles didn't guarantee nobility. Later on extra rules were added but medieval feudal nobility was never actually closed off. The stricter closed off nobility only in the 1350s to about 1600, when nobility became so strict many noble families lost nobility but even then there were plenty fo ways to become noble. It was just strict and sometimes arbitrary, but as much as the popular image might seem. {as a side note people refused being given nobility when they qualified for it because while it came with privileges it also had duties/etc.} My point is by being meritocratic is not against the design of medieval/feudal society. Davos is inspired by alot of similar nobility granting that happened in times of war or other crisis. Stannis doing it should be seen as him following the law as intended/written rather than a subversion.
King John also really did not like the nobility either, and allowed commoners to beat nobles in court (if they slipped him a nice bribe). This is part of why we ended up getting the Magna Carta.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Not wrong, but in the case of ASOIAF, these feudal systems are pretty much identical to the way they were thousands of years ago, which is one of those unrealistic parts we just accept because it makes for a great story
Stannis in the show was butchered by Dumb and Dumber. In the books, Stannis would literally sacrifice himself before ever thinking of ever wanting to sacrifice his daughter! HIS ONE TRUE BORN DAUGHTER AND ONLY HEIR TO THE IRON THRONE! THE GIRL WHO WILL ONE DAY BECOME THE WOMAN WHO IS QUEEN OF WESTEROS!
Yes, Stannis is the one I was rooting for. His biggest strengths are also his weaknesses. He is the ruthless paladin who punishes anyone who violates the law. People either rally to him for that, or fear he is blinded by his ambition. A very polarizing figure. In the end, I think he represents the true legal heir to the throne, yet the least popular among the neighbor nations who became wealthy and powerful through corrupt political games, which Stannis despises. Dragonstone is a far better advantage to Stannis than Storm's End after the king dies. Such a bitter man, but he keeps some of the best company, and almost totally free of treacherous spies.
It’s funny, you mentioned that Stannis realized he loved Robert and Renly only after they were gone. He speaks to the honor of Ned Stark only after he dies for Stannis’s claim. I know He does admit he never liked him, but Stannis does seem to have a pattern of not appreciating people until they’re gone.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 We like Stannis, because he doesn't do drastic punishments for minor crimes like being a doofus and saying you're the heir to the Iron Throne, when you clearly aren't.
Stannis is an autistic gigachad with a strong moral compass. Pragmatic and fair, resilient and driven. He loves nothing but truth and duty. I can see not loving him, but not respecting him? Impossible
I love the casting of Stannis, and Renly’s actor did a great job, but the show didn’t convey that Renly was so much more handsome, charming, and strong than Stannis that people would fight just to skip over the older brother. It works in the books, but the show fumbled their relationship via casting imo.
The showrunners think gay men are some flamboyant weeklings when historically bi or homosexual rulers were as agresive andi mposing as male ones Frederik the great dident prance around he was respected
@@okloshbrokla8154 I hated that so much about the show, because in the books, Renly was actually strong and intelligent. He wasn't a weakling at all. The show made him look like he is whiny and fearful, like he was a weakling. I hated it. And what happened to his fashion sense? In the books, the man dressed to kill. On the show....
Renly and Loras's entire personalities in the show are "gay stereotype". Loras's entire character arc in the show is just "gay". All his problems and interactions are about his gayness, nothing more. They reduced these 2 into caricatures of gay people. Just like they reduced Edmure into a joke. I also have a problem with making Loras the one who tells Renly to become king, when it should've been portrayed as Renly's own idea, his own pride. Renly's ambition was important.
@@gooby214In show: Loras is gay, is outted, suffers, and is made to say that he renounces his gayness before his death In book: His gayness is known by some POVs like Jaime, but for the most part they seem him in alot more light than that, and are willing not to out him. Cersei also thinks and says some homophobic things regarding his gayness, and then manages to get cancelled... by her own actions lmao
"Then, Stannis Baratheon arrived. The siege had left him gaunt, but not weak, never WEAK, He greeted the smuggler and accepted the onions with cool courtesy, betraying no emotion even as all his men WEPT. He doled out the food to his WIFE and each of his MEN BEFORE he ate himself, a PORTION NO LARGER THAN ANY OTHER"
Does anyone else think Jon Arryn intended to put Stannis on the throne after Robert's death? He did spend a lot of time with him, i believe it was Stannis who showed Ned who and where Gendry was, how else would he know if he hadn't spent time with Jon Arryn and shared knowledge of the line of succession? Jon couldn't scheme or plot this openly to Stannis because Stannis would take that sort of planning as an act of treason so therefore would be likely to work against Jon Arryn
Of course same plan and situation with Ned why Littlefinger took advantage of killing both so War of the 5 kings can happen. Only thing is Jon Arryn kind like Ned tell Lannister to runaway or capture them and bring them into justice.
@@KOCChristian I don't think Jon Arryn ever trusted Tywin, but he respected him, plus the rebellion needed the Lannisters' wealth and armies to succeed, and Jon Arryn knew Tywin was no fool so that's why Cersei and Robert were married. Jon Arryn never intended for Ned to be hand of the king after him, that was Robert's decision because Robert had nobody left to trust in the capital so went to his adopted brother (as they were both raised together like brothers)
My dear old dad's name was Stan. Looks just like the show version. Similar personality. Marine during Vietnam. I LOVE Stannis! His conviction! When I was first reading ASOIAF, I could not believe the similarities. I needed that so bad at the time. He was a sign to me. I miss my dad. Thank you for this video! I got goosebumps watching it 👑❤🔥
Stephen Dillane did a great job portraying him but it infuriates me how they just dropped his story by the end of season 5. Can tell the writers wouldn’t know what to do with him in future seasons, too complex of a character to keep along I suppose
Many fans turned on the show because of season 8. I gave up on it after the character-assassination of Stannis. From the moment the out-of-character burning of his daughter occurred, I was done caring about the show. All that was left was to see who died, and how... As for why I liked him in the first place....he was right, he was one of the few characters who held himself to a morality and purpose higher than himself, the actor gave a cool performance....and, to be honest, his story had the best supporting characters. Davos and Shireen, Gendry, for however brief a time, and eventually Jon Snow as well.
I think GRRM said that Stannis is going to burn Shireen in WoW. Although it’ll likely happen differently in the books. So it’s not really character assassination as it’s a plot point that came directly from GRRM
@@SarastistheSerpent Doesn't matter. As it is both in the books and the show, it is character assasination. It's a nonsensical decision that makes no sense for his character in either version
Stannis is actual a decent dude. He just is ocd about justice. Very ocd about that which is right. He's got a huge lawful streak. Its pretty much how he functions. Ever since his parents death, its been his cooping method. Lawful to a complete fault.
Really enjoyed the video. You are absolutely right; Stannis represents Justice, just as - for examples - Tywin represents Power, Ned represents Honour and Walder Frey represents Betrayal. But there are other sides to Stannis which mark him out as unique in ASOIAF: that he orders Justin Massey to put Shireen on the throne if he dies in the Battle of Ice; that he raises Davos up to Lordship and makes him Hand; that he regrets the death of Maester Cressen which robs the old boy of his retirement; that he offers to legitimise Jon Snow; that he agrees with Snow’s plan to bring the wildlings south of the Wall; these are all as close as any character gets to progressive or egalitarian, remotely modern (in our terms) policies. Stannis is the answer to the question of why Westeros, in thousands of years, has never progressed beyond a feudal state. Because society has never progressed beyond its mediaeval attitudes and Stannis would actually move, to a degree at least, beyond those and start the move forward. The other characters have no interest in this stuff upsetting their world but as readers, we recognise his impulses and admire them, even subconsciously, even grudgingly.
Yeah, I agree with you. He seems like a hard, stern man, but he can also be progressive and open to change. He is able to compromise. Thank you for your comment, I'm glad that you enjoyed the video. 😊
I love Stannis because he represents the positives for sticking to his beliefs. He does make morally bankrupt decisions at some points, but every decision are always in accordance to his beliefs. Thematically he feels like the representation of a Westeros who sticks to it’s traditions but changes it’s current situation not to survive, but to keep tradition. He’s a perfect embodiment of the perfect lord in Westeros according to its stories. Stannis will assuredly die not because he was incapable of change, but because he is the only leader capable of passing power to those who are worthy of holding power. It’s an amazing portrait of how most people can only see the darkness encasing his picture and missing that his painting is dark only because of the social constraints built to shape his form. Amazing and so thematically resonant with those who are passionate enough to think deeply on his actions
True, though I must say that Stannis can sometimes be capable of compromise. For example, he decides to divert from his main plan and head to the Wall in order to help out the Night's Watch, even though his main goal is to rebuild his army and re-attack King's Landing. He also doesn't burn Theon and Asha despite his lords urging him to do so in 'A Dance With Dragons'. So he can be capable of compromise and change... but only if the compromises are in line with his own ethics. For example, yes, he does go to the Wall, but he does so because he believes that it his duty as king to go. He still compromises, but within his own belief system and values. 🤔
@@thecriticalmaester9702 sorry, that is exactly what I was trying to get at with my comment 😅 he symbolizes the ideal Westerosi King! George shows the positives and negatives that come from that kind of a personality and how politics and personal morals make people push against and betray this ideology. I’m excited to see if George rewards this mindset or punishes it!
Stannis on another great character: Stannis: (paraphrasing) The first time I ever saw the Iron Throne, Robert had to hold my hand I was so nervous; but afterwards we both agreed that the King was as gracious as the dragons were fearsome. It was only later that I learned that Ayres had cut himself, it had been Tywin Lannister whom had impressed us so.
I was a show fan first, stannis became my favorite when he offered to let Renly be his heir to the throne. After his deaths I got into the books and I felt so cheated. I will say Stephen Dillane still seems like the best actor to portray him.
It's also worth pointing out the parallels between Stannis and Aegon the Conqueror. Both start out only holding a lonely windswept rock but, steadily, their influence grows on the mainland. Aegon didn't take out all the major players of Westeros at once, he saw opportunities to punish each rulers hubris and kept hammering away at them until they caved, until Dorne at least. Same with Stannis, where others scheme in the shadows or play at war Stannis makes his actions count for something greater. Difference here is that Aegon had three dragons, while Stannis only has a dubiously-reliable fire priestess, a smuggler-turned-knight and his own conviction.
I think a really underrated element of why book fans like Stannis so much is that we mostly see Stannis from Davos' POV. Davos is friends with and admires Stannis. He is the POV character who gets to see Stannis both at his best and his most vulnerable. Even after Stannis imprisoned him for doing the right thing (saving Edric Storm from being sacrificed), Davos believed in Stannis enough to get him to listen to the call for aid from the Night's Watch, and it paid off. Davos knows Stannis' sense of justice -- "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward." -- better than anyone, and believes in him and chooses to follow him.
Before watching: I love Stannis because, after Ned, he is the closet thing this story has to a hero. He is honourable to a fault and so duty driven he doesn't even want to be king, but he pursues the iron throne because it is the right thing to do. He is the only candidate for the throne that actually cares about the common folk but this compassion is grounded with maturity and the experience of a war veteran. All of his suppised drawbacks bar one simply attract me more to Stannis. Oh he is shit at politics and prefers to burn all of his enemies at the stake? *Good* the Red Keep deserves that. The real elephant in the room with Stannis is the fact he would probably cause a religious revolt(s).
"Traitors have always paid with their lives...even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown." Stannis the goddamn Mannis.
He's also hilarious, and way, way more flexible than people think. He abandoned the faith of the seven, he does sleep with Mel as you noted, if he didn't vary he wouldn't do that as he is married, also good commanders have to be flexible as no plan survives the start of battle.
stannis my king. i remember being a book fan in 2016 and going to Kings landing (aka Dubrovnik) and looking for Barstheon merch, being looked at weirdly because as we know he burned his daughter in season 5 which came out in 2015. wore a baratheon shirt as i sat on the throne. stannis the mannis forever
Oh they ruined him WAAAY before that. They destroyed his character since the early season. They made him burn people alive for being "infidels", turned him into Melisandre's puppet, turned him into a religious lunatic, made him beg for coin to the Iron Bank (in the books, the Iron Bank came to Stannis AFTER Tywin died and Cersei refused to keep paying the crown's monthly due to them). These are only a few examples of how they butchered him since season 1. Yes, season 1, before he even appeared, since the show neglected to tell you that Stannis was THE FIRST PERSON who knew about the true parentage of Cersei's children, and is the one who told his suspicions to Jon Arryn. Plus, the show wrote Stannis too boring and lifeless with little presence in the story and with too few scenes, while cutting short most of his story since season 2. Stannis in the books, is a total badass and imposing guy. He's supposed to have way more presence and is the pragmatic guy. Stannis is to the stormlands what Tywin Lannister is to the westerlands, and what Randyll Tarly is to the Reach. Having Stannis burn his only heir alive, make him incompetent in military matters and not strategic (well, everyone in the show lost their strategy, and scouts don't even exist), and somehow got defeated by "20 good men" who somehow managed to destroy all the siege weapons and most horses. Ridiculous.
@thecriticalmaester9702 Well, George is a bleeding heart liberal, so it makes sense that he would write a 100% evil person and then tell the audience..."nah he's just misunderstood."
@@herbthompson8937 He is 100% evil and responsible of his acts but he is also a product of his enviroment, there is a reason as to why he is that way, like Roose is also quite an evil person and actively enabled a lot of his worse impulses, I suppose the missudnerstood thing is bc the daddy issues or George was beign sarcastic
@@ddpzzp553 "product of your environment" is not an excuse. The fact that not every single person who grows up in shitty conditions is not complete scum, shows that it is just an excuse
Well, if not Ramsay, there's Euron. And Rorge the talking ape. I mean them in the books, not the losers they are in the show. You can't tell me those 2 are "misunderstood".
I started loving him because I have a thing for lawful neutral dramatic bitches who have a complicated relationship with an ex-criminal. Also, frankly, he's the most competent option. If the Others are defeated, Westeros will need time to recover, and Stannis knows how economy works.
As others pointed out. Book Stannis has a hilariously dry sense of humor. At the meeting with Renly, Renly boasts "Margaery has come to me a maiden (virgin)." Stannis remarks "In your bed she'll stay that way." Stannis despite having an unyielding reputation, has shown a pragmatic flexibility. He negotiated with the Northern tribes. Shifted from the battle for King's Landing to the North. Book Stannis is also much more of a skeptic with religion. He doesn't actually believe that much in Melisandre. 1 final note - Robert probably didn't snub Stannis. Being lord of Dragonstone was the Targaryen position given to the next in line for the Throne. In other words, Robert probably entrusted Stannis with a vital position before he'd theoretically have trueborn heirs. But Stannis missed that detail.
I think a big part of why people like Stannis is because he comes to the aid of the Wall when literally no one else will. Even though he's just lost a battle at King's Landing, instead of regrouping in a safe location he risks his army to aid the Night's Watch SIMPLY BECAUSE he views it as his duty as king. As a book reader, I grew very invested in the battle for the Wall, and remember thinking everything was fucked before Stannis the Mannis showed up out of the blue and saved the day. It was so unexpected and awesome. Always loved the Mannis from that point on. He doesn't just pay lip service to being a good king, he backs it up through actions.
I think the fact is that Robert did care about Stannis. When Targaryen rules, Dragonstone is often given to the heir of the throne. Maybe Robert also saw Stannis that way, a man that can be trusted and do great things.
Stannis is a total Aspergers case, socially incompetent, impopular among his peers, but really good in his field of expertise (war), I think a lot of nerds relate to that a lot.
Being straightfoward to others, telling the truth whatever the consequence , sticking to your own beliefs and acting upon them is socially incompetent. You sure about that ?
its him never giving up and turning his extremely shitty odds into a actual good chance to become king despite not even wanting it for himself but just believing its what should be due to the law. he is a true underdog which we cant help rooting for
I think that paragraph about renlys peach is one of the finest bits of writing in the whole series, such an accurate depiction of grief and such a good look behind the curtain for a character who until that point was rather cold
I have aspbergers and Stannis is probably the best, most relatable depiction of the way my brain works. The actor also had a similar affect when playing Thomas Jefferson in John Adams.
I remember liking him nearly as much as Daeny when I was reading the books. As for who I wanted to rule the 7 kingdoms I’d say Stannis up until Daeny showed up, or actually I really liked how Daeny tried to save Astapor Yunkai and Meereen so I kinda wanted her to stay over there/head East.
Stannis whilst sieged at Storm's End almost eats last after all his man have eaten the few scraps they have, it shows that he takes leadership not as a privilege but a duty
he never cheated on his wife or killed his little brother, He was asleap when Renly died, he only dreamed about his death, It was surely Melisandres doing but Stannis never (as far as we know) gave any order to Melisandre to kill his brother. And he certainly didnt sleep with her. Or are you refering to the tv show? if so you should rename the video
Are you sure that Stannis wasn't a willing participant in the murder? In the book, the answer isn't blatant, but he very much seems aware of what happened. And the fact that he is even willing to sacrifice Edric Storm shows me that he isn't above murdering his own kin. But who knows? Maybe you're right and he wasn't aware. I just doubt it. 🤔 Also, for the earlier seasons of Game of Thrones, the showrunners had a lot of guidance from George RR Martin. Therefore, I don't think that making Stannis an active participant in his brother's murder was something that they came up with all by themselves. George probably had something to do with that decision. Lastly, the fact that Melisandre gave birth to the shadow, and the shadow looked like Stannis (even in the books, Brienne is adamant on that), clearly shows that Stannis had committed infidelity...
@@thecriticalmaester9702 His brother was a traitor. He was given his choice and he rejected it. He deserved to die. Stop being a moron and holding that against Stannis.
Why must you pretend he was perfect? We all know Stannis was dark in the beginning but it’s his growth into realizing his flaws what makes him great. Don’t make up he was a perfect soul. He was flawed don’t white wash him as if pervious can be changed.
HE SLEPT WITH MELISANDRE, more than once. How do you think those 2 shadow assassins were made? WHY do you think he DREAMED about himself being the shadow, just when Renly was being killed, while curiously his squire couldn't wake him up? Is reading comprehension that hard? Geez, I'm glad I'm not that BAD of a reader. It's even hinted multple times he keeps banging Melisandre. Stannis isn't perfect, and is not fond of his wife. Melisandre herself explained to Davos they made the shadows together, but fears he will die if they make a third one. That's why she offered to make one with Davos, and obviously got turned down. And obviously banging Melisandre doesn't automatically mean making shadow babies, since it's been hinted they sleep together anyway. You can't possibly be THIS innocent, after you read how Melisandre spent every night in Stannis's tent to "help him sleep"...only a 3 year old would think it's literally that. Or how it's mentioned Stannis is always with Melisandre in his private chambers while depressed. And how at the Wall it's mentioned that Stannis spends his free time walking along the Wall with Melisandre, and how Melisandre herself in her POV thinks her bed has no use without Stannis, while he's away? It's such blatant clues... she's his mistress. Did you really think she was his little friend to hang out with?
It’s heavily implied that Stannis was complicit in Renly’s death. Afterwords, it is mentioned numerous times that Stannis suffered from nightmares, anxiety attacks and insomnia after Renly’s death, and only Melisandre was able to calm him down. That’s a pretty explicit manifestation of guilt and remorse. He wouldn’t have had that emotional response if Renly just dropped dead or died by someone else’s hand
I cannot wait for him to smash the Freys in the Winds of Winter. I think we're gonna be treated to a masterful play from Stannis, learning from previous defeats and showing us why he's a respected and feared military leader
Stannis is my favourite character becouse I can really relate to him and his feelings. When I was a teenager and a young adult people often had a wrong first impression of me. They thought I was a timid and introverted nerd who was good in math and inforraics. But in reality it was the opisite. But people didnt want to interact with me becouse i looked so unaprochable. And thats sort of what happens with stannis. People think hes stoic and simple minded but hes actually really flexible and reinvents himself so much. He listens to good advice and tries to be a good king
Stop holding Renly's death against Stannis. He was given his chance to stop being a traitor, and he turned it down. He was in open rebellion and 100% deserved to be put down. That's not a talking point against him. Renly was trash. Also I like the irony in the ending question as every year, since Dance of Dragons was released, the official site for the franchise has held a novel poll, and EVERY year since 2013, Stannis has ranked top 3 in favorite characters, ranking third twice, first 3 times, and second the rest of the years. It's a general consensus that novel readers love the character.
Y’all Stannis stan are the worst, Renly had the charm the armies and allies. He knew Stannis wasn’t fit for iron throne, he barely play the game and understand the sideline threats like Little finger and Varys. Renly is reasonable. It like saying Micheal Corleone was fool take over the family for being youngest son and saying Fredo did nothing wrong with betraying him.
In the books, Renly wasn’t really a traitor (at least not a traitor to Stannis). In the show, it makes it seem like Renly declared himself king despite knowing that Stannis was the rightful heir, but in the books, Renly had absolutely no idea that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were illegitimate, so he assumed Stannis himself was a traitor and was claiming the throne based on his superior ability to lead over Joffrey, which Renly himself parroted. In the book, Renly thought he was making the same claim for the throne that Stannis was- a claim based on merit rather than right of inheritance. Renly literally first learns of the rumour of Joffrey’s illegitimacy at the parley with Stannis the very day he died. He was shocked and laughed it off, believing that Stannis made it up on the spot to justify his claim. Renly in the book almost certainly would not have made a claim for the throne had it been publicly revealed before he announced his bid that Joffrey was illegitimate, especially if the accusation came from Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. Renly only got the idea of making a claim for the throne after Stannis did, and as far as Renly knew Stannis was claiming the throne illegitimately on meritocratic grounds. Also, even if Renly had been a traitor to Stannis in the book (which he really wasn’t), Kinslaying is still a terrible taboo.
@SaltoDaKid Actually, Stannis makes a point throughout the books that Littlefinger and Varys'd be killed the moment he came into power. He despises them, deeply, and they know it, and even acknowledge it. Stannis has the charm of armies. They're ready to follow him into death. Renly's not had a single battle, ever. Stannis on the other hand is accomplished through and through, and in a foreign land (the North) is currently leading a very successful campaign. Sure, some soldiers might have cheered Renly's name, but they've never struck down anyone for him. Stannis' appeal isn't that he's in the right Throne-right (which he is), it's that he's deep. He regrets his brother's death, feels guilty. He is presented as this unyielding, unbreakable person, but after the battle of Blackwater all he's doing is changing, and adopting new techniques. There's a lot more to him than meets the eye. Torn between factions that are zealous and closely "atheist" in our sense of the word, he has to navigate a melange of challenges.
@@KOCChristian Renly would've been swindled by Littelfinger and Varys at every opportunity, even with Olenna's backing. Stannis was absolutely fit for the throne. He was aware of the game and all it's schemes, unlike Ned. He was simply unwilling to entertain disgusting backstabbing scum that play it. Stannis would not have allowed it to prosper, hell, he was specifically going to kill Varys and Littlefinger the moment he came to power. Renly was a charming man but in no way prepared to step into the ring with the greats nor was he willing to just burn the ring outright like his brother, who as it happens is infinitely mroe skilled in arts of war, both tactical and martial. In other words, you're coping.
People always miss one thing when they talk about Stannis' sense of duty when it comes to being king. Yes, he feels the throne is his by right, and it's his duty to be king, but also as highlighted in Theon's sample chapter from Winds, very importantly imo, he feels it's his duty to his *daughter* to fight for her birthright. It's not *just* that Stannis is King by right, but also that Shireen is the heir by right.
All the characters that scheme knew their scheming wouldn’t work on him. That’s another reason they fear him. Stannis is fair. Thats admirable. People like fairness, at least until they ask for mercy or a little excuse for their own wrongs. Then the perception changes and that perception changes to being too stern.
this is not verbatim, but this exchange is enough to justify the fans: "i'll have you know that margaery came to me as a maid." "in your bed, she'll likely die as such."
I'm not really a stannis 'stan' but I do love how he's kind of a part of the general pastiche of a typical heroic fantasy story that game of thrones has. The deceased king's younger brother who lives in a giant spiky seafort, with no beauty or the charisma people expect. He craves the throne from the beautiful blonde haired King and his queen-mother, the most beautiful woman in the land, defended by the dashing and greatest swordsman in the kingdom... He would be an evil overlord in a different story, and instead he's Stannis, and the beautiful king is... Joffrey.
![[TH] FS vs BME - VCT Ascension Pacific - Lower Bracket Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wnygqsR2Fig/mqdefault.jpg)
It's not that complicated, he's simply the rightful king.
From one point of view. From another, it's Daenerys.
@@matro2I mean that’s not correct though, Robert won the throne through right of conquest the exact same way that Aegon did hundreds of years ago. If Dany wants the throne she needs to take it as she doesn’t exactly have a right to it anymore. Stannis being Robert’s true legitimate next in line means he is the rightful king.
@@JHawke12 Then it's Tommen's throne since he sits on it.
He is the rightful heir of an usurper ;)
@@matro2 No because tommen is not the legitimate ruler as he’s a bastard. We’re talking about “rightful” king here and that by all accounts is Stannis. He’s literally Robert’s heir
Stannis is also funny af. When he finds out that Gilly's baby is Kraster's as well and Kraster is Gilly's father and he says "Send them away. This isn't King's Landing" Hilarious 💀😂
"Who better to command the black than the man who commanded the gold?"
Stannis: Any of you, even the cook.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@thecriticalmaester9702 🤣🤣🤣
Renly: "I'll have you know that [Margaery] came to me a maid."
Stannis: "In your bed she'll die that way."
Absolutely stone cold 💀💀💀💀💀
@@Vmac1394 Stone cold indeed 🤣
@@Vmac1394 And in the show they pulled an Uno reverse card and had Staniss get roasted by Renly (mmm roast ham).
In an ironic twist despite robert and stanni's relationship he inadvertently made stannis his heir when he gave him dragonstone.
Very ironic indeed. But I think that what bothers Stannis is the fact that he knows that Robert never actually did that deliberately. If Robert did make him his heir, it was by pure (or ironic?) coincidence. 😭
He named him Lord of Dragonstone not Prince of Dragonstone. He was his heir though legally speaking
@@mysteryjunkie9808yeah until Joffrey and Tommen
@@irtazaazam2573 yes
Joffrey, Myrcella & Tommen weren't alive/born back then, so Stannis was 2nd in line, and Robert's heir. Part of why he got given Dragonstone@@thecriticalmaester9702
Personally I think Robert would've made Edric Storm (highborn bastard) his heir, if he knew the truth about Cersei's kids
Dont forget his great linguistical/grammatical skills!
Davos: "Its four less finger nails to clean."
Stannis: "Fewer."
Nightswatch men: "Let them die! Less enemies for us."
Stannis: "Fewer."
Another thing I find admirable about Stannis.
He is the ONLY leader so far that has actually shown a general interest in DEFENDING the realms! He actually went to the wall and defeated Mance. And while unsuccesfull, he is trying to garner support in the north by showing interest in their struggles. Of course he has personal reasons for doing it, but we also know he takes the prophecy of the prince that was promised serious and sees it as his duty. I think that is more than just admirable. Despite being by far the weakest of the 5 kings after the battle of blackwater, he kind of put his war on hold to go north. I reapect that immensely
I think Stannis is interesting because he lives by a moral code and strict principles (specific to himself though they might be) like the ideal champion of the gods would in this world. At the same time, he puts the gods by the wayside, proudly stating his disbelief in them, and chooses to take up with Melisandre and the Red God because the reality of their power is evident. Stannis' god is power, and he's the man to wield it.
"A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good"
I also think people love him because he’s introduced by someone who does love him. Maester Cressen.
Sure we get little hints about what Stannis is like before that, but he first appears on page from Maester Cressens POV. We associate really sad and unfortunate stories with Stannis, and relate to his struggle to be rewarded for his hard work. And then we continue to see him from the POV of Davos for much of his story, another person who cares for him emotionally.
Jon and Catelyn are neutral parties at best in terms of how they feel about him. Wary but willing to work with him essentially.
It makes it hard to accept how dark some of his actions really are. Since we are primed to like him and be on his side.
Which of his actions are particularly dark? When it comes to the books I can't think of a single instance that I associate with Stannis.
@@tetrahedron9196
Well, I’m not sure I can make a good argument for any of his arguably ‘dark’ moments, since I feel he was justified in most cases.
When he was holding Storms End during Roberts rebellion, three men committed treason and tried to allow the attackers access. Stannis had to be talked out of sending them to the side of the wall they seemed to prefer by trebuchet. I mean, I love it. It’s extreme but the punishment fits the crime. But he was 17 or so at the time, and had Renly to look out for. That’s a heck of an example to set.
Then, still around 17 or so, he renders his judgement on Davos. Which, again, Davos accepted it and seemed to feel fine about it… but like, that’s a bit extreme.
Stannis was seriously considering sacrificing Edrick Storm. A nephew, so it’s kinslaying, and an innocent, someone he’s supposed to protect. In this case I think it’s good that Davos stepped in, because if somehow it had ‘worked’, Shireen would have been burned by now. It’s a slippery slope man.
I just sometimes wonder what a character more distant would have to say, about events Davos talks about. What would someone less fond of Stannis say about the siege? Would I still be able to think of him as justified? Or does he need that positive attachment of those characters to make me like him. Because nobody freaking likes him, except for all his fans lol And even from Davos’ perspective it’s not hard to see how people pass him off as a ‘Dark Lord’ type.
@@ratgirl34 That's just man stuff. Only after the second WW did the concept of a teenager arise. At 17 in his society he is well and truly into adulthood with all the responsabilities involved, especially since his parents were gone. That is his primary greivance with Renly, that as the youngest brother he never had to shoulder the burden as much as the other two brothers.
In a way it speaks for itself that for 20ish years he has been among the most capable and involved military leaders in Westeros and the worst even his enemies can say of him is that he is too "just' and too stubborn.
@@tetrahedron9196
Well, you asked. I provided instances and possible reasons why someone could say it’s dark. I said outright I couldn’t steel man any of them.
It's worth pointing out that Cressen did not object to flinging the traitors over the walls by trebuchet on moral grounds but rather on pragmatic grounds because with no relief from the siege in sight they may have needed to eat the prisoners to survive.
So he's medieval batman? JUSTICE!! FOR WESTOROS!!
Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. Stannis pointed north. “There is where I'll find the foe that I was born to fight”
- The king who cares🦌
That is one of my favorite monologues in the series. It is rare for nobility to consider the opinions of a commoner let alone a smuggler.
It really made me angry that the show just threw that out cause the showrunners hated stannis
Rob wanted revenge and fight for his kingdom but he forgot his home and people. The Stark way is to protect your people and not playing the game of thrones, Stannis acted more like a Stark then Robb did when he fought for the north. He was described as iron by the one-handed smith, he's a Stark at heart.
The relationship between Stannis and Lord Davos are the one of the rare relationship where a High Lord considers a peasant as a friend, Stannis misses Davos when he is not near him, and Davos is the only one able to make Stannis smile, which in Stannis case is grinding his teeth a little less.
@@Ironcorgi2funnily enough Staniss' actor hated stannis he had no idea what the hell the story was about but he gave it his all and became a fan favorite, which is honestly the mist staniss thing imaginable
@@mrloadinggamedunno, after reading Theon winds of winter chapter, it seems that Stannis had a good time torturing that maester 😂
He’s also one of the funniest characters without trying to be.
Renly:”You’ll be happy to know she came to me a maid(virgin)”
Stannis: ”In your bed she likes to die one too”
There were so many amazing zingers in the books, not just restricted to Tyrion like in the show.
Imagine getting Margaery as a virgin, and not taking advantage of that. Massive L for RenLy.
@@TheStraightestWhitest
Bro, he likes dudes. Not an L for the man, he just wasn’t able to marry a man.
@@calebreynolds9183 L
@@calebreynolds9183Obviously, no such thing as marrying in the same sex
He is looking at me, Jon thought, stunned. "Winterfell is no more. Theon Greyjoy put it to the torch." "Granite does not burn easily," Stannis said. "The castle can be rebuilt, in time. It's not the walls that make a lord, it's the man..."
He has such awesome lines. 😭😭
“Lord Ramsay is the one Your Grace should fear.”
"I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm’s End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"
@@fakeplaystore7991I fear George might just have him lose to Ramsey. He likes to prove his characters wrong.
@@DolphineAchonga-gn6kn He can't at this point. The fans love stannis way too much for him to lose to a non-MC. George will have to do it exceptionally well for that to happen. He will most probably circumvent that by him winning the battle and dying in the process or through some other means, but he most certainly will not die in a battle he lost. he is too good lore-wise and fan loyalty-wise.
@@DolphineAchonga-gn6kn He can't at this point. The fans love stannis way too much for him to lose to a non-MC. George will have to do it exceptionally well for that to happen. He will most probably circumvent that by him winning the battle and dying in the process or through some other means, but he most certainly will not die in a battle he lost. he is too good lore-wise and fan loyalty-wise.
For me it was when he went North. People asked for help. A King helps his people. So Stannis helps people.
He is the King Who Cared. 😭
@@thecriticalmaester9702 Seriously! The funny thing is he's probably one of the most abrasive characters in the story, yet I think he'd make a very good King in terms of being just and enforcing the law of the land.
"One reached Dragonstone, and a king who still cared."
Of course that's great and all but don't forget he literally didn't have anywhere else to go except die at the gates of kings landing. Also they sent letters many times and the one Davos read was an old letter that was ignored at first (though I think his former hand is to be blamed for that)
HE BURNED HIS DAUGHTER!!!
In the books he isn't much of a R'hllor extremist its Selyse who is he just sees it as a means to an end so most likely it'll be Selyse and Melisandre who burn Shireen without Stannis knowledge.
Yeah, you might be right 🤔
Stannis is an atheist. He says that he couldn't worship any gods who would kill his parents in front of him like that. This is followed by a story of how he saved an injured hawk as a child but the hawk could never soar and Robert mocked him for it, then this:
Stannis Baratheon turned away from the window, and the ghosts who moved upon the southern sea. "The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk."
Later in Melisandre's chapter she thinks about how men like Jon and Stannis don't worship the gods they follow in name. Rather duty is their god.
@@Vmac1394Very true,he even doesnt buy into melisandres leech story.
When she and his entire council(minus Davos ofc) claim that Rhllor killed Rob stark he says "Is Rhllors hand spotted and palsied?This seems more Walder freys handywork than any gods".
@@Vmac1394I would say that, despite what Mel says, Jon at the very least believe in the Old Gods, considering he thought that Ghost belonged to the Old Gods due to his weirdwood-like appareance
Wish the writers took that into account for the show.
Ironically, Robert gave quite a lot of thought to giving Stannis the Dragonstone. He knew the Targaryen loyalists there would be dangerous and needed someone strict and resilient to rule over them.
I don't think that Stannis saw it that way, especially since Robert hated the Targaryens so much. Stannis would never think that Robert would follow a Targaryen custom whilst still despising that House in the way that he did. But I agree with you nonetheless. Stannis was best suited to hold Dragonstone, and Renly was best suited to be the lord of Storm's End. Renly is charming and way more likeable, so it would've been easier for the stormlords to grow accustomed to him. But I still feel bad for Stannis. It must've felt like a slap in the face to have his brother do that to him.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 it would’ve made more sense for Robert to name Stannis Lord of Storm’s End and Dragonstone until he had an heir come of age. If Joffrey had been named Prince of Dragonstone at birth, then Stannis would just be the Lord of Storm’s End, but Stannis could have ruled as acting Lord of Dragonstone until Joffrey came of age, which would have opened up Storm’s End for Renly to rule as acting Lord until Stannis’ return. This would have kept both brothers where Robert wanted them without him giving away Stannis’ birthright as Lord of the Stormlands.
@@warpedwhimsical If only Robert had known that Joffrey wasn't his, then he could've made Stannis his Hand in order to prepare him as king. It then would've been fine to make Renly the lord of Storm's End. But all of these are just me crying over spilled milk... 😭
He should have said so, but I don't think it was intentional.
I think credit for that decision might belong to Jon Arryn. I doubt Robert put much thought into ruling.
We are told Stannis never bends, that his will is unbreakable. That he is as tough and brittle as iron. Yet all he ever does throughout this tale is compromise. Pragmatism is his virtue, and honesty is his curse.
When does he compromise, you might ask?
He doesn’t bring Melisandre to the Blackwater, he doesn’t execute Davos, he realises he would be wrong to besiege and massacre the Celtigars after Blackwater, he sails North when all he wishes is to take the Iron Throne, he doesn’t actually burn Mance, he listens to the bastard boy Jon Snow on matters he is knowledgeable about, he learns not to demand fealty in exchange for pardons, but earn it through respect and even in TWOW sample chapters, he hasn’t executed Theon or Asha even though it would appease the Northern lords AND refuses to burn people because it would alienate half his forces. This is all off the top of my head, btw. I’m sure i’m missing a few things.
Now, after reading that, tell me who the True Steel should be. Robert? He was hard, sure, strong, sure, but when it came time to change from warrior to ruler, to adapt, did he bend? No. He broke, That sounds like iron. Stannis? He takes hits. Did Kings Landing shatter him? No. He rebounded, sailed North and crushed an army with twenty times his number. Did he keep demanding loyalty? No. He visited lowly Northern Clansmen to earn it himself. Did he turn to the flames when the snows piled high as hills in his path? No.
Stannis the Mannis, the King who Cared, the One True Ruler of Westeros! STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS!
Bruh, that was beautiful... and true. STANNIS! STANNIS! STANNIS!
Incredibly based analysis
True, true..
STANNIS STANNIS STANNIS
Im about to copy and paste your manifesto anytime Stannis is questioned.
Stannis! Stannis! Stannis!
One other thing:
In GRRM´s story many of the main protagonists are half magical beings or beings touched by magic (Dany getting her Dragons, Bran, Jon, Arrya, Sansa etc. warging, green dreaming, learning facelessmen-magic) .. while Stannis, well he is just a "very normal" human - but with iron willpower.
The reader gets a very clear picture that he is very "none-magical" by nature, highlighted by his fake fire-sword.
He does not seem to be destined by gods or fate to play a big role - being a second son, the unloved and unwanted, the none-magical one, the unlucky .. but he bounces back, again and again, being THE TRUE STEEL that Robert never was
We're just skipping over the shadow assassin, and prophetic visions?
@@TotallyNotBrad123 these are not his powers (or his pets) to begin with.
He is still the probably most-nonemagical dude in Westeros xD
Stannis is the Batman of Westeros.
@@jove1155 yes man! All dudes around him are weird super humans, but he is still the most badass
As other people are pointing out in the comments, Stannis isn't the vaccuum of charisma that everyone claims him to be. He's hilarious in a bitter sardonic way and treats everyone fairly. The issue that all the highborn have with him in the book is that he doesn't flatter EVER. So to the arrogant and useless nobility of King's landing he has no charisma because they're used to being flattered and double talk but to the readers he's an ass but an honest one in a world of snakes.
Another thing is that he's the only King candidate that acts like a King should. Joffrey is obviously terrible, Tommen is a child, Rob was a great commander but didn't know how to negotiate the political landscape (He never should have made that deal with the Freys. Imagine Stannis or Tywin in his position at the twins, would they ever agree to such a lopsided deal with an ally's vassal?). Renly was a thief and a backstabber who didn't even have a theoretical claim and Balon wasn't really much of an entity. Even if we go further than the traditional 5 kings, and include other major players everyone else falls short of what a King should be. Robert was neglectful of his duties, Tywin was a brilliant player but too cruel and judgemental to be considered fair, Daenarys is doing the best she can but clearly has not figured out how to rule yet, and Euron is straight up evil. Only Stannis is strong enough to win wars, just enough to judge fairly and astute enough to avoid the vipers.
In a meta sense I think George doesn't really understand his own character because George is a bit of a hippy and Stannis is the exact opposite of that so he personally dislikes Stannis' character. But a driven, ruthless and honest man is very admirable in a lot of ways, especially in Westeros.
Good comment,but Aegon VI is also good King material
Good comment,but Aegon VI is also good King material
@@michakoniecpolski5677 that's a good point I forgot about him. I'd say he certainly looks like he'd be a good king but we haven't had a chance to see him prove himself fully.
@@ShandoGuardian Lots of good points. Also Stannis' marriage hinders his position.
But I don't think George dislikes him. He often writes about characters with widely different personalities or ethics from his own.
George loves his Stannis Baratheon, Shando, & even picks him out as the best King of Westeros claimant in an interview. He talks about how its not always 'the good man' who makes
'the good King' and its clear he's written his Kingship material traits very deliberately, as Stannis is sort of a Proto-Constitutionalist (rights go both ways, and not even Kings are above Law)
If Robert was an “unstoppable force,” Stannis is an “immovable object.”
Unstoppable? A boar killed Robert LMAO
@@Jew_Gi_Oh he was a fierce warrior back in the day . Also, boars are wild animals and he was drunk.
@@Jew_Gi_Ohtime slows down all. The saying is relative.
@@Jew_Gi_Ohno chin, no right to an opinion. robert slaps
@@Jew_Gi_Oh Your saying that as if boars aren't vicious and terrifying in their own right.
Stannis being a good father to his daughter also makes him likeable as well (not including what happens in the show until the book comes out).
Her mother hates her for her disfiguring disease but Stannis still loves her in his awkward way.
The iron with heart
I never got the stannis is a good father narrative, he’s neglectful and davos is more of a father to his daughter
@@henrylupkes211Maybe because he is never actually seen interacting with his daughter Shireen on page in the books and rarely mentions her at all, thus giving the appearance that he ignores her more often than not. But while it might get lost among his more unpleasant character traits, he IS a decent parent who wants what's best for her. He makes sure that Shireen receives a proper education and keeps Patchface around because she likes him, even if the jester is a living reminder of the shipwreck that killed his parents.
While his behavior is pragmatic in a sense (it's unlikely that he and Selyse will have another heir, and so Shireen must become an adequate ruler), on the whole he still comes across as a one of the better parents in Westeros.
@@VictorIV0310"he isn't actively abusive" is not a compelling argument to say he's a good parent. If that's the best you can say about his parenting, it's quite obvious he's a bad father
@@alexjames7144Maybe he's too occupied with his cause. This is life or death for him and his family, constantly. I am sure if he were to be at peace, ruling preferably, Shireen would not be lacking in any way. She'd have the safety, education, resources and everything else Stannis would want to give her. Unfortunately we've only seen him when his mind is a literal warzone, and for good reason. When he succeeds, he can be the full-time father you'd want him to be
@@eyegaiminhd He joined the war by choice. It would have been the easiest thing ever to just not contest the throne. Nobody forced him, he just wanted to.
Stannis is also quite fun spesifically because he's not trying to be
he's so dead serious it's actually fun. In a good way of course
"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless." The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead - " " - you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."
"We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his Warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the Bastard with his right. I am not Robert. But we will march, and we will free Winterfell … or die in the attempt."
- Stannis Baratheon
ALL HAIL STANNIS BARATHEON! THE ONE TRUE KING OF WESTEROS! AND THE KING IN THE NORTH!!!
“Few of the birds that Aemon had sent off had returned as yet. One reached Stannis, though. One found Dragonstone, and a king who still cared.”
I find the fact Stannis gave Renly a chance to surrender is actually quite significant. It is a noticeable break from his stern and unwavering code. You can see his emotional connections to family just under the surface.
Exactly. Besides, it's not like Renly was above murdering Stannis.
He really does have a bias towards his family that conflicts with his strictness. When Robert rebelled, Stannis wrestled between his duty to the throne and his duty to his family. Thankfully he chose family.
Robert risked the life of his entire house because the girl he met a couple days ago ran off with a handsome prince. Stannis wouldve been insane to not question that.
@@user-tb6ye3jv3z Ned had every reason to rebel, but lets not pretend like Roberts primary goal was to get justice for House Stark. Stannis was smart to not rush into a civil war with the Targs, Martells, Tyrells (and Lannisters?). The possibility that Rhaegar steps in and tries a diplomatic approach wasnt out of the window yet.
Ah but he also had a Duty to family@@jedi098765
He's not just the rightful king. Despite being considered "Iron, unbending", he's surprisingly flexible and forgiving. Despite being part of one of the oldest families, his best friend and confidante is a lowborn former smuggler and he shows many times how clever and strong he is.
He's not some stupid religious zealot, he makes the right decisions(using blood magic aside, only two people died rather than thousands in what could have been destructive to both sides) and only fails on the Blackwater because of Robb Stark not explaining his plans to Edmure Tully.
Three times, Melisandre and Selyse Florent beg him to murder Edric Storm and all three times, Stannis refuses, saying that Edric is not to blame, that Melisandre said the leeches would work and he immediately takes Davos's words to heart when two of the Kings Melisandre's "leeches"killed died, saying "two is not three". Even when Joffrey dies, Stannis forces Melisandre to swear that what she's saying is true or he'll murder her with his bare hands.
Later, he allows Jon to convince him not to take the Wildlings and allows Jon to give him ideas, first gaining the loyalty of the mountain clans(despite him apparently being far from diplomatic), second defeating Asha Greyjoy and returning Deepwood Motte to House Glover and gaining the loyalty of many House's(including the Mormont's, who swore to only follow a Stark).
Stannis is far better than many consider him, especially idiotic show runners who don't understand the character.
I don't think that Dumb and Dumber truly understood the character - or any of the characters tbh with you. I think that their goal was just to reach the Red Wedding and probably Tywin's death, and everything else in between (subplots, themes and characters) was just ignored. 😭
Small correction but the baratheon family started with aegons conquest as orys was the bastard brother of aegon
Some other things that contribute to making Stannis so compelling:
- he has Davos Seaworth, one of the best and most likeable POV characters.
- he has Dragonstone, one of the coolest castles in ASoIaF.
- he has access to badass dark magic
- everything about him is just tragic in some way. His wife's glum and depressed, his daughter is a wretched freak, his court feels drab and lackluster, his armies gets defeated, he has almost no friends, his mistress is a chtulhoid horror kinda person... like, if this was in Crusader Kings 3, all his court would have the "Melancholic", "Barren" and "Ugly" traits...it's like a menagerie of miserable people. Compare to Doran Martell's court in Dorne, where everyone is like a passionate olive-skinned hottie full of joi de vivre and the point-of-view character is a buxom, sultry vixen. Stannis POV, meanwhile, is a miserable, lowborn middle-aged man in drab clothes. In Dorne, they eat lemon cake and delicious tapas, on Dragonstone they eat turnips and porridge.
It's like, everyone else in ASoIaF is somehow magnificent. But Stannis' whole faction is just gritty, awkward and sad. Melisandre is basically the only hot person on Dragonstone.
Compare to why so many people like the Nosferatu clan in the Vampire - the Masquerade roleplaying game. It's a world of seductive undead masterminds of etheral beauty and dark majesty, yet the Nosferatu, cursed with horrible ugliness, hide in the sewers as sad freaks preoccupied with information brokering and talking to animals. There's a certain, large, demography of players who really love that.
Stannis is the Nosferatu of ASoIaF. The dark, tragic underdog.
My god, your comment is so elegant
@@9acidthings yea nothing screams elegant more than calling a child a wretched freak lmaooo
@@motyovszkimiklos7538 yess!
@@motyovszkimiklos7538 I meant it from a trope standpoint, not literally.
@@Natsymir Sweet child, grotesque appearance.
What I like about him the most is he isn't bullshitter, in this world of intrigue. As others say, he is the more dark version of Ned Stark. He is simply following the law and claiming his right. He deals with traitors and schemers ruthlessly. He rewards those like Davls Seaworth who have true loyalty.
I hope he doesn't die if Winds of Winter ever comes out. Because really Weseros needs a strong king like Stannis.
If he does die which I hope won't happen, I want Shireen to succeed him as Queen of Westeros to honor her father.
Unfortunately, he probably will. If GRRM killed off Robb, he will absolutely kill Stannis. I just hope he doesn't die to the Boltons or gets his character arc ruined like it was in the show.
I read the books after the show and I can say I experienced Stannis sooo differently. I remember most of the time reading the books I was praying for Stannis chapters and dreading all the Danaerys chapters xd
While reading Dany chapters, i would start checking how many pages left till some better PoV chapter.
In the first book I very quickly got sick and tired of flipping the page and seeing the word “Daenerys”, and playing the game “how long till she’s getting viciously pounded by Drogo” with myself (she is 13 in the first book btw). Did we really need the arc of 13 year old Dany bleeding and crying from getting stretched by Drogo’s big Dothraki horsec0cc and then finally starting to enjoy it? GRRM absolutely had a chubby writing those chapters.
@@GrubHuncherIt took until Qarth for the Dany chapters to become incredible,when she goes to the house of the undying
@@GrubHuncher Yikes, that sounds about as hard to read as “The Color Purple”. Thanks for the disclaimer for when I start reading Game of Thrones!
@@GrubHuncher funny that you described the horrible thing that happened that doesnt need to be described lol the whole point of those chapters is to build the world, a world that is fucking horrific. if you absolutely despise those chapters then they served the purpose of them 100%
The complete Irony of Stannis is how he says they’ll never love me like how they loved Robert and Renly. Anyone that Stannis Baratheon has won over stays with him through thick and thin. The dude is the Black Coffee of the Baratheon Brothers. Robert is cream and sugar and Renly can be the frozen macchiato with extra whip cream and caramel drizzle with an espresso shot.
One thing I never see people mention is how Stannis is the only lord in westeros that wants to change the society to me more meritocratic. He promotes Davos despite his low birth and makes him his hand and he did this despite how much it angered the other lords. A big part of why medieval societies are unjust by design is the lack of social mobility, lords are born into power whilst peasants will never get the chance to hold power despite how competent they might be. Stannis is willing to go against the rest of the high borns and promote Davos shows he values competency and loyalty over birthright. This is why I love Stannis, he's not only just in the since he wants to root out corruption, he is fixing systemic injustice of his medieval society.
It's not 'unjust by design', entrenched nobility and lack of upwards social mobility are the enveitable end result of a meritocratic system, eventually the skills and resources to succeed (ie merit) get pooled into an aristocracy, which either just outcompetes all competition or uses that overwhelming power to pull the ladder up behind them. Medieval societies were designed to be meritocratic, but like all meritocratic systems they became less so over time.
In medieval Europe in and before 1000AD anyone could become a noble, and was Orginally 100% 'meritocratic' by modern standards, and being born to nobles didn't guarantee nobility. Later on extra rules were added but medieval feudal nobility was never actually closed off.
The stricter closed off nobility only in the 1350s to about 1600, when nobility became so strict many noble families lost nobility but even then there were plenty fo ways to become noble. It was just strict and sometimes arbitrary, but as much as the popular image might seem.
{as a side note people refused being given nobility when they qualified for it because while it came with privileges it also had duties/etc.}
My point is by being meritocratic is not against the design of medieval/feudal society. Davos is inspired by alot of similar nobility granting that happened in times of war or other crisis. Stannis doing it should be seen as him following the law as intended/written rather than a subversion.
King John also really did not like the nobility either, and allowed commoners to beat nobles in court (if they slipped him a nice bribe). This is part of why we ended up getting the Magna Carta.
@@matthiuskoenig3378 Not wrong, but in the case of ASOIAF, these feudal systems are pretty much identical to the way they were thousands of years ago, which is one of those unrealistic parts we just accept because it makes for a great story
He does this because Stannis is too stupid for politics.
Stannis in the show was butchered by Dumb and Dumber. In the books, Stannis would literally sacrifice himself before ever thinking of ever wanting to sacrifice his daughter! HIS ONE TRUE BORN DAUGHTER AND ONLY HEIR TO THE IRON THRONE! THE GIRL WHO WILL ONE DAY BECOME THE WOMAN WHO IS QUEEN OF WESTEROS!
Yes, Stannis is the one I was rooting for. His biggest strengths are also his weaknesses. He is the ruthless paladin who punishes anyone who violates the law. People either rally to him for that, or fear he is blinded by his ambition. A very polarizing figure. In the end, I think he represents the true legal heir to the throne, yet the least popular among the neighbor nations who became wealthy and powerful through corrupt political games, which Stannis despises. Dragonstone is a far better advantage to Stannis than Storm's End after the king dies. Such a bitter man, but he keeps some of the best company, and almost totally free of treacherous spies.
It’s funny, you mentioned that Stannis realized he loved Robert and Renly only after they were gone. He speaks to the honor of Ned Stark only after he dies for Stannis’s claim.
I know He does admit he never liked him, but Stannis does seem to have a pattern of not appreciating people until they’re gone.
Might be one of the reasons why he lost in the end. Its hard to make friends or allies in such a way.
I like him because he's literally me
Are you saying that you're the true heir to the Iron Throne? 👀 I think Stannis would have your tongue for that. Lol. 😆
He's relatable as hell for real tho
@@user-jd3vi2pg1g It's actually Stannis himself who typed that.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 We like Stannis, because he doesn't do drastic punishments for minor crimes like being a doofus and saying you're the heir to the Iron Throne, when you clearly aren't.
"Bu-but but.. Your grace.. We'll lose hundreds in the attack!"
- Stannis: *Shrugs "Thousands."
Stannis is an autistic gigachad with a strong moral compass. Pragmatic and fair, resilient and driven. He loves nothing but truth and duty.
I can see not loving him, but not respecting him? Impossible
IMO I think the way he was portrayed in the show made book Stanny fans double down even harder.
I love the casting of Stannis, and Renly’s actor did a great job, but the show didn’t convey that Renly was so much more handsome, charming, and strong than Stannis that people would fight just to skip over the older brother. It works in the books, but the show fumbled their relationship via casting imo.
The showrunners think gay men are some flamboyant weeklings when historically bi or homosexual rulers were as agresive andi mposing as male ones
Frederik the great dident prance around he was respected
@@okloshbrokla8154 I hated that so much about the show, because in the books, Renly was actually strong and intelligent. He wasn't a weakling at all. The show made him look like he is whiny and fearful, like he was a weakling. I hated it. And what happened to his fashion sense? In the books, the man dressed to kill. On the show....
@@okloshbrokla8154Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great were both Bi af and absolute legends
Renly and Loras's entire personalities in the show are "gay stereotype". Loras's entire character arc in the show is just "gay". All his problems and interactions are about his gayness, nothing more. They reduced these 2 into caricatures of gay people. Just like they reduced Edmure into a joke. I also have a problem with making Loras the one who tells Renly to become king, when it should've been portrayed as Renly's own idea, his own pride. Renly's ambition was important.
@@gooby214In show: Loras is gay, is outted, suffers, and is made to say that he renounces his gayness before his death
In book: His gayness is known by some POVs like Jaime, but for the most part they seem him in alot more light than that, and are willing not to out him.
Cersei also thinks and says some homophobic things regarding his gayness, and then manages to get cancelled... by her own actions lmao
"Then, Stannis Baratheon arrived.
The siege had left him gaunt, but not weak, never WEAK,
He greeted the smuggler and accepted the onions with cool courtesy,
betraying no emotion even as all his men WEPT.
He doled out the food to his WIFE
and each of his MEN
BEFORE he ate himself,
a PORTION NO LARGER THAN ANY OTHER"
My knees are bending on their own!
That is a King. 👑
Does anyone else think Jon Arryn intended to put Stannis on the throne after Robert's death?
He did spend a lot of time with him, i believe it was Stannis who showed Ned who and where Gendry was, how else would he know if he hadn't spent time with Jon Arryn and shared knowledge of the line of succession?
Jon couldn't scheme or plot this openly to Stannis because Stannis would take that sort of planning as an act of treason so therefore would be likely to work against Jon Arryn
Maybe. Interesting thought... 🤔
Of course same plan and situation with Ned why Littlefinger took advantage of killing both so War of the 5 kings can happen. Only thing is Jon Arryn kind like Ned tell Lannister to runaway or capture them and bring them into justice.
@@KOCChristian I don't think Jon Arryn ever trusted Tywin, but he respected him, plus the rebellion needed the Lannisters' wealth and armies to succeed, and Jon Arryn knew Tywin was no fool so that's why Cersei and Robert were married.
Jon Arryn never intended for Ned to be hand of the king after him, that was Robert's decision because Robert had nobody left to trust in the capital so went to his adopted brother (as they were both raised together like brothers)
I’d follow Stannis to the end if I was in that world
My dear old dad's name was Stan. Looks just like the show version. Similar personality. Marine during Vietnam. I LOVE Stannis! His conviction! When I was first reading ASOIAF, I could not believe the similarities. I needed that so bad at the time. He was a sign to me. I miss my dad. Thank you for this video! I got goosebumps watching it 👑❤🔥
Wow I love this r.i.p to your father
I’m certain mannis will not make it to the end but I do expect him to have his time. He is the true king in my heart
He is the rightful king. All those that deny it are my foes. 😐
He definitely wont, but if he takes down Roose with him, I'll die a happy man
"This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some." - Tywin Lannister
One has to note that after sex with melisandre, stannis immediately tells his wife and apologizes
Stephen Dillane did a great job portraying him but it infuriates me how they just dropped his story by the end of season 5.
Can tell the writers wouldn’t know what to do with him in future seasons, too complex of a character to keep along I suppose
All the complex characters got killed or dumbed down by the show. Varys and littlefinger deaths were even worse than stannis!
@@origami83 preach
Many fans turned on the show because of season 8. I gave up on it after the character-assassination of Stannis. From the moment the out-of-character burning of his daughter occurred, I was done caring about the show. All that was left was to see who died, and how...
As for why I liked him in the first place....he was right, he was one of the few characters who held himself to a morality and purpose higher than himself, the actor gave a cool performance....and, to be honest, his story had the best supporting characters. Davos and Shireen, Gendry, for however brief a time, and eventually Jon Snow as well.
I think GRRM said that Stannis is going to burn Shireen in WoW. Although it’ll likely happen differently in the books. So it’s not really character assassination as it’s a plot point that came directly from GRRM
@@SarastistheSerpent Doesn't matter. As it is both in the books and the show, it is character assasination. It's a nonsensical decision that makes no sense for his character in either version
@@SarastistheSerpent I don't know how lol Shireen is on the other side of the world while Melissandre is in castle black
Stannis is actual a decent dude. He just is ocd about justice. Very ocd about that which is right. He's got a huge lawful streak. Its pretty much how he functions. Ever since his parents death, its been his cooping method. Lawful to a complete fault.
If Renly had done the right thing and stood by his brother, rallied the Reach to his cause, the One True King would sit the Iron Throne.
Stannis the Mannis is literally just a man doing his job like an absolute professional.
Really enjoyed the video. You are absolutely right; Stannis represents Justice, just as - for examples - Tywin represents Power, Ned represents Honour and Walder Frey represents Betrayal. But there are other sides to Stannis which mark him out as unique in ASOIAF: that he orders Justin Massey to put Shireen on the throne if he dies in the Battle of Ice; that he raises Davos up to Lordship and makes him Hand; that he regrets the death of Maester Cressen which robs the old boy of his retirement; that he offers to legitimise Jon Snow; that he agrees with Snow’s plan to bring the wildlings south of the Wall; these are all as close as any character gets to progressive or egalitarian, remotely modern (in our terms) policies. Stannis is the answer to the question of why Westeros, in thousands of years, has never progressed beyond a feudal state. Because society has never progressed beyond its mediaeval attitudes and Stannis would actually move, to a degree at least, beyond those and start the move forward. The other characters have no interest in this stuff upsetting their world but as readers, we recognise his impulses and admire them, even subconsciously, even grudgingly.
Yeah, I agree with you. He seems like a hard, stern man, but he can also be progressive and open to change. He is able to compromise. Thank you for your comment, I'm glad that you enjoyed the video. 😊
‘Progressive’ isn’t a good thing. Look at the world today and you’ll see the damage done by ‘progressive’ policies.
So well said.
I love Stannis because he represents the positives for sticking to his beliefs. He does make morally bankrupt decisions at some points, but every decision are always in accordance to his beliefs.
Thematically he feels like the representation of a Westeros who sticks to it’s traditions but changes it’s current situation not to survive, but to keep tradition. He’s a perfect embodiment of the perfect lord in Westeros according to its stories. Stannis will assuredly die not because he was incapable of change, but because he is the only leader capable of passing power to those who are worthy of holding power.
It’s an amazing portrait of how most people can only see the darkness encasing his picture and missing that his painting is dark only because of the social constraints built to shape his form. Amazing and so thematically resonant with those who are passionate enough to think deeply on his actions
True, though I must say that Stannis can sometimes be capable of compromise. For example, he decides to divert from his main plan and head to the Wall in order to help out the Night's Watch, even though his main goal is to rebuild his army and re-attack King's Landing. He also doesn't burn Theon and Asha despite his lords urging him to do so in 'A Dance With Dragons'. So he can be capable of compromise and change... but only if the compromises are in line with his own ethics. For example, yes, he does go to the Wall, but he does so because he believes that it his duty as king to go. He still compromises, but within his own belief system and values. 🤔
@@thecriticalmaester9702 sorry, that is exactly what I was trying to get at with my comment 😅 he symbolizes the ideal Westerosi King! George shows the positives and negatives that come from that kind of a personality and how politics and personal morals make people push against and betray this ideology. I’m excited to see if George rewards this mindset or punishes it!
@@alexiavya722 Me too.
@@thecriticalmaester9702 coolio! Loved the videos and you definitely earned a new subscriber today :)
Stannis on another great character:
Stannis: (paraphrasing) The first time I ever saw the Iron Throne, Robert had to hold my hand I was so nervous; but afterwards we both agreed that the King was as gracious as the dragons were fearsome. It was only later that I learned that Ayres had cut himself, it had been Tywin Lannister whom had impressed us so.
Stanis is the only king I would follow the one true king
I was a show fan first, stannis became my favorite when he offered to let Renly be his heir to the throne. After his deaths I got into the books and I felt so cheated. I will say Stephen Dillane still seems like the best actor to portray him.
It's also worth pointing out the parallels between Stannis and Aegon the Conqueror. Both start out only holding a lonely windswept rock but, steadily, their influence grows on the mainland. Aegon didn't take out all the major players of Westeros at once, he saw opportunities to punish each rulers hubris and kept hammering away at them until they caved, until Dorne at least. Same with Stannis, where others scheme in the shadows or play at war Stannis makes his actions count for something greater.
Difference here is that Aegon had three dragons, while Stannis only has a dubiously-reliable fire priestess, a smuggler-turned-knight and his own conviction.
Well, both are united by having some of the peak waifus of the setting as their consorts. Visenya for Aegon and Melisandre for Stannis.
Aegon could not take an outhouse without his dragons. Stannis is true steel
I think a really underrated element of why book fans like Stannis so much is that we mostly see Stannis from Davos' POV. Davos is friends with and admires Stannis. He is the POV character who gets to see Stannis both at his best and his most vulnerable. Even after Stannis imprisoned him for doing the right thing (saving Edric Storm from being sacrificed), Davos believed in Stannis enough to get him to listen to the call for aid from the Night's Watch, and it paid off. Davos knows Stannis' sense of justice -- "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward." -- better than anyone, and believes in him and chooses to follow him.
Before watching: I love Stannis because, after Ned, he is the closet thing this story has to a hero. He is honourable to a fault and so duty driven he doesn't even want to be king, but he pursues the iron throne because it is the right thing to do. He is the only candidate for the throne that actually cares about the common folk but this compassion is grounded with maturity and the experience of a war veteran.
All of his suppised drawbacks bar one simply attract me more to Stannis. Oh he is shit at politics and prefers to burn all of his enemies at the stake? *Good* the Red Keep deserves that.
The real elephant in the room with Stannis is the fact he would probably cause a religious revolt(s).
"Traitors have always paid with their lives...even Rhaenyra Targaryen.
She was daughter to one king and mother to two more yet she died a traitor's death for trying to usurp her brother's crown." Stannis the goddamn Mannis.
Book fans? Stannis is easily one of the best characters in the show, Stephen Dillane's performance was so good.
He's also hilarious, and way, way more flexible than people think. He abandoned the faith of the seven, he does sleep with Mel as you noted, if he didn't vary he wouldn't do that as he is married, also good commanders have to be flexible as no plan survives the start of battle.
stannis my king. i remember being a book fan in 2016 and going to Kings landing (aka Dubrovnik) and looking for Barstheon merch, being looked at weirdly because as we know he burned his daughter in season 5 which came out in 2015. wore a baratheon shirt as i sat on the throne. stannis the mannis forever
I heard they ruined him in the show especially by making him kill his daughter making him OOC.
Oh they ruined him WAAAY before that. They destroyed his character since the early season. They made him burn people alive for being "infidels", turned him into Melisandre's puppet, turned him into a religious lunatic, made him beg for coin to the Iron Bank (in the books, the Iron Bank came to Stannis AFTER Tywin died and Cersei refused to keep paying the crown's monthly due to them). These are only a few examples of how they butchered him since season 1. Yes, season 1, before he even appeared, since the show neglected to tell you that Stannis was THE FIRST PERSON who knew about the true parentage of Cersei's children, and is the one who told his suspicions to Jon Arryn. Plus, the show wrote Stannis too boring and lifeless with little presence in the story and with too few scenes, while cutting short most of his story since season 2. Stannis in the books, is a total badass and imposing guy. He's supposed to have way more presence and is the pragmatic guy. Stannis is to the stormlands what Tywin Lannister is to the westerlands, and what Randyll Tarly is to the Reach.
Having Stannis burn his only heir alive, make him incompetent in military matters and not strategic (well, everyone in the show lost their strategy, and scouts don't even exist), and somehow got defeated by "20 good men" who somehow managed to destroy all the siege weapons and most horses. Ridiculous.
Stannis is done so dirty by the series we can't even
So dirty. 😭
I would say that book stannis is somebody I admire greatly. Tenacity. Duty. And it's definitely his time to shine when the books start
pls looks at Gregor Clegane or Ramsay and tell me that there are no good or evil characters
In the words of George RR Martin: "Ramsay is misunderstood." 🤣🙈
@thecriticalmaester9702 Well, George is a bleeding heart liberal, so it makes sense that he would write a 100% evil person and then tell the audience..."nah he's just misunderstood."
@@herbthompson8937 He is 100% evil and responsible of his acts but he is also a product of his enviroment, there is a reason as to why he is that way, like Roose is also quite an evil person and actively enabled a lot of his worse impulses, I suppose the missudnerstood thing is bc the daddy issues or George was beign sarcastic
@@ddpzzp553 "product of your environment" is not an excuse. The fact that not every single person who grows up in shitty conditions is not complete scum, shows that it is just an excuse
Well, if not Ramsay, there's Euron. And Rorge the talking ape. I mean them in the books, not the losers they are in the show. You can't tell me those 2 are "misunderstood".
Stannis Baratheon is the one true king and the Iron Throne is his, by right. All those who deny that are my foes.
Great video btw. Subbed!
It's not a story...
I started loving him because I have a thing for lawful neutral dramatic bitches who have a complicated relationship with an ex-criminal. Also, frankly, he's the most competent option. If the Others are defeated, Westeros will need time to recover, and Stannis knows how economy works.
As others pointed out. Book Stannis has a hilariously dry sense of humor. At the meeting with Renly, Renly boasts "Margaery has come to me a maiden (virgin)." Stannis remarks "In your bed she'll stay that way."
Stannis despite having an unyielding reputation, has shown a pragmatic flexibility. He negotiated with the Northern tribes. Shifted from the battle for King's Landing to the North.
Book Stannis is also much more of a skeptic with religion. He doesn't actually believe that much in Melisandre.
1 final note - Robert probably didn't snub Stannis. Being lord of Dragonstone was the Targaryen position given to the next in line for the Throne. In other words, Robert probably entrusted Stannis with a vital position before he'd theoretically have trueborn heirs. But Stannis missed that detail.
I think a big part of why people like Stannis is because he comes to the aid of the Wall when literally no one else will. Even though he's just lost a battle at King's Landing, instead of regrouping in a safe location he risks his army to aid the Night's Watch SIMPLY BECAUSE he views it as his duty as king. As a book reader, I grew very invested in the battle for the Wall, and remember thinking everything was fucked before Stannis the Mannis showed up out of the blue and saved the day. It was so unexpected and awesome. Always loved the Mannis from that point on. He doesn't just pay lip service to being a good king, he backs it up through actions.
Hi my brother from another mother big love from Libya
love book stannis, cause he IS the mannis, but show stannis? meh no depth
The king who cared
I think the fact is that Robert did care about Stannis. When Targaryen rules, Dragonstone is often given to the heir of the throne. Maybe Robert also saw Stannis that way, a man that can be trusted and do great things.
Stannis is a total Aspergers case, socially incompetent, impopular among his peers, but really good in his field of expertise (war), I think a lot of nerds relate to that a lot.
Being straightfoward to others, telling the truth whatever the consequence , sticking to your own beliefs and acting upon them is socially incompetent. You sure about that ?
its him never giving up and turning his extremely shitty odds into a actual good chance to become king despite not even wanting it for himself but just believing its what should be due to the law. he is a true underdog which we cant help rooting for
well the vid kinda summed it up i posted this before watching
I think that paragraph about renlys peach is one of the finest bits of writing in the whole series, such an accurate depiction of grief and such a good look behind the curtain for a character who until that point was rather cold
determination singlemindedness determination singlemindedness determination singlemindedness determination singlemindedness
I have aspbergers and Stannis is probably the best, most relatable depiction of the way my brain works. The actor also had a similar affect when playing Thomas Jefferson in John Adams.
gotta love my autistic king stannis the mannis!
I remember liking him nearly as much as Daeny when I was reading the books. As for who I wanted to rule the 7 kingdoms I’d say Stannis up until Daeny showed up, or actually I really liked how Daeny tried to save Astapor Yunkai and Meereen so I kinda wanted her to stay over there/head East.
“Pray harder!!” Lmao 🤣
I think he says that during the march to Winterfell??
This was lame. I frickin hate Asha chapters, she could be erased from series by this but "muh pray harder *fedora tip* "
Stannis would never have let shreen be burned , the show did him dirty
Stannis whilst sieged at Storm's End almost eats last after all his man have eaten the few scraps they have, it shows that he takes leadership not as a privilege but a duty
he never cheated on his wife or killed his little brother, He was asleap when Renly died, he only dreamed about his death, It was surely Melisandres doing but Stannis never (as far as we know) gave any order to Melisandre to kill his brother. And he certainly didnt sleep with her. Or are you refering to the tv show? if so you should rename the video
Are you sure that Stannis wasn't a willing participant in the murder? In the book, the answer isn't blatant, but he very much seems aware of what happened. And the fact that he is even willing to sacrifice Edric Storm shows me that he isn't above murdering his own kin. But who knows? Maybe you're right and he wasn't aware. I just doubt it. 🤔
Also, for the earlier seasons of Game of Thrones, the showrunners had a lot of guidance from George RR Martin. Therefore, I don't think that making Stannis an active participant in his brother's murder was something that they came up with all by themselves. George probably had something to do with that decision.
Lastly, the fact that Melisandre gave birth to the shadow, and the shadow looked like Stannis (even in the books, Brienne is adamant on that), clearly shows that Stannis had committed infidelity...
@@thecriticalmaester9702 His brother was a traitor. He was given his choice and he rejected it. He deserved to die. Stop being a moron and holding that against Stannis.
Why must you pretend he was perfect? We all know Stannis was dark in the beginning but it’s his growth into realizing his flaws what makes him great. Don’t make up he was a perfect soul. He was flawed don’t white wash him as if pervious can be changed.
HE SLEPT WITH MELISANDRE, more than once. How do you think those 2 shadow assassins were made? WHY do you think he DREAMED about himself being the shadow, just when Renly was being killed, while curiously his squire couldn't wake him up? Is reading comprehension that hard? Geez, I'm glad I'm not that BAD of a reader. It's even hinted multple times he keeps banging Melisandre. Stannis isn't perfect, and is not fond of his wife. Melisandre herself explained to Davos they made the shadows together, but fears he will die if they make a third one. That's why she offered to make one with Davos, and obviously got turned down. And obviously banging Melisandre doesn't automatically mean making shadow babies, since it's been hinted they sleep together anyway.
You can't possibly be THIS innocent, after you read how Melisandre spent every night in Stannis's tent to "help him sleep"...only a 3 year old would think it's literally that. Or how it's mentioned Stannis is always with Melisandre in his private chambers while depressed. And how at the Wall it's mentioned that Stannis spends his free time walking along the Wall with Melisandre, and how Melisandre herself in her POV thinks her bed has no use without Stannis, while he's away? It's such blatant clues... she's his mistress. Did you really think she was his little friend to hang out with?
It’s heavily implied that Stannis was complicit in Renly’s death. Afterwords, it is mentioned numerous times that Stannis suffered from nightmares, anxiety attacks and insomnia after Renly’s death, and only Melisandre was able to calm him down. That’s a pretty explicit manifestation of guilt and remorse. He wouldn’t have had that emotional response if Renly just dropped dead or died by someone else’s hand
I cannot wait for him to smash the Freys in the Winds of Winter. I think we're gonna be treated to a masterful play from Stannis, learning from previous defeats and showing us why he's a respected and feared military leader
Stannis is my favourite character becouse I can really relate to him and his feelings. When I was a teenager and a young adult people often had a wrong first impression of me. They thought I was a timid and introverted nerd who was good in math and inforraics. But in reality it was the opisite. But people didnt want to interact with me becouse i looked so unaprochable. And thats sort of what happens with stannis. People think hes stoic and simple minded but hes actually really flexible and reinvents himself so much. He listens to good advice and tries to be a good king
Stannis has nothing to lose, but everything to gain
The One True King.
I've always loved Stannis and I still have my Baratheon pin. You earned yourself a subscriber!
Stop holding Renly's death against Stannis. He was given his chance to stop being a traitor, and he turned it down. He was in open rebellion and 100% deserved to be put down. That's not a talking point against him. Renly was trash. Also I like the irony in the ending question as every year, since Dance of Dragons was released, the official site for the franchise has held a novel poll, and EVERY year since 2013, Stannis has ranked top 3 in favorite characters, ranking third twice, first 3 times, and second the rest of the years. It's a general consensus that novel readers love the character.
Y’all Stannis stan are the worst, Renly had the charm the armies and allies. He knew Stannis wasn’t fit for iron throne, he barely play the game and understand the sideline threats like Little finger and Varys. Renly is reasonable. It like saying Micheal Corleone was fool take over the family for being youngest son and saying Fredo did nothing wrong with betraying him.
In the books, Renly wasn’t really a traitor (at least not a traitor to Stannis). In the show, it makes it seem like Renly declared himself king despite knowing that Stannis was the rightful heir, but in the books, Renly had absolutely no idea that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen were illegitimate, so he assumed Stannis himself was a traitor and was claiming the throne based on his superior ability to lead over Joffrey, which Renly himself parroted. In the book, Renly thought he was making the same claim for the throne that Stannis was- a claim based on merit rather than right of inheritance. Renly literally first learns of the rumour of Joffrey’s illegitimacy at the parley with Stannis the very day he died. He was shocked and laughed it off, believing that Stannis made it up on the spot to justify his claim. Renly in the book almost certainly would not have made a claim for the throne had it been publicly revealed before he announced his bid that Joffrey was illegitimate, especially if the accusation came from Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. Renly only got the idea of making a claim for the throne after Stannis did, and as far as Renly knew Stannis was claiming the throne illegitimately on meritocratic grounds.
Also, even if Renly had been a traitor to Stannis in the book (which he really wasn’t), Kinslaying is still a terrible taboo.
@SaltoDaKid Actually, Stannis makes a point throughout the books that Littlefinger and Varys'd be killed the moment he came into power. He despises them, deeply, and they know it, and even acknowledge it.
Stannis has the charm of armies. They're ready to follow him into death. Renly's not had a single battle, ever. Stannis on the other hand is accomplished through and through, and in a foreign land (the North) is currently leading a very successful campaign. Sure, some soldiers might have cheered Renly's name, but they've never struck down anyone for him.
Stannis' appeal isn't that he's in the right Throne-right (which he is), it's that he's deep. He regrets his brother's death, feels guilty. He is presented as this unyielding, unbreakable person, but after the battle of Blackwater all he's doing is changing, and adopting new techniques. There's a lot more to him than meets the eye. Torn between factions that are zealous and closely "atheist" in our sense of the word, he has to navigate a melange of challenges.
@@KOCChristian Renly would've been swindled by Littelfinger and Varys at every opportunity, even with Olenna's backing. Stannis was absolutely fit for the throne. He was aware of the game and all it's schemes, unlike Ned. He was simply unwilling to entertain disgusting backstabbing scum that play it. Stannis would not have allowed it to prosper, hell, he was specifically going to kill Varys and Littlefinger the moment he came to power.
Renly was a charming man but in no way prepared to step into the ring with the greats nor was he willing to just burn the ring outright like his brother, who as it happens is infinitely mroe skilled in arts of war, both tactical and martial.
In other words, you're coping.
People always miss one thing when they talk about Stannis' sense of duty when it comes to being king. Yes, he feels the throne is his by right, and it's his duty to be king, but also as highlighted in Theon's sample chapter from Winds, very importantly imo, he feels it's his duty to his *daughter* to fight for her birthright. It's not *just* that Stannis is King by right, but also that Shireen is the heir by right.
THE MAANNNNISSSS!!!!!!
Stannis is the true king. I hope he prevails in the north
All the characters that scheme knew their scheming wouldn’t work on him. That’s another reason they fear him.
Stannis is fair. Thats admirable. People like fairness, at least until they ask for mercy or a little excuse for their own wrongs. Then the perception changes and that perception changes to being too stern.
I may not have read most of the books, so I can just say; Even in the show I rooted for Stannis until he burnt Shireen.
The throne IS HIS
this is not verbatim, but this exchange is enough to justify the fans:
"i'll have you know that margaery came to me as a maid."
"in your bed, she'll likely die as such."
Stannis is interesting, probably one of the most interesting characters, simple as...
I'm not really a stannis 'stan' but I do love how he's kind of a part of the general pastiche of a typical heroic fantasy story that game of thrones has. The deceased king's younger brother who lives in a giant spiky seafort, with no beauty or the charisma people expect. He craves the throne from the beautiful blonde haired King and his queen-mother, the most beautiful woman in the land, defended by the dashing and greatest swordsman in the kingdom... He would be an evil overlord in a different story, and instead he's Stannis, and the beautiful king is... Joffrey.