This is a very interesting list. Not all of the orders of Radiants are able to use their surges the same way others do. We're told that Windrunners are much better with Gravitation than Skybreakers are. We also have to take into account how much stormlight something takes to do and how different it is when trying to affect shardplate, shardblades, or Invested Entities. I think if both Radiants have shardplate and shardblades, surges like division become less valuable. Because of this, I don't think we can be sure of anything without actually having experience on the field with these Radiants. The Shin may be the only ones who can tell us which order is best in combat, but ofc even they don't have shardplate or malleable blades. The only thing I can really say is that a lot of surge usage comes down to individual skill. Jasnah, despite being of the order that is #7 on this list, is one of the most fearsome warriors in the series because she's *so good* at what she does. Kaladin bests a few Skybreakers despite their order being #1 and his #3 because he's more proficient with his surges. Anyway, this is about as close as I think we can come to a definitive list (short of asking Sanderson himself), but in the end, combat will always come down to individual skill rather than base power level.
I 100% agree. I knew there was no way of making this a concise video if I tried to fit it all in. There's so much nuance and conditions to consider. All I could do to level the playing field was to focus on the surges and basically disregard all other factors. Maybe one day when we're a few books further in and we've seen more Radiant combat, I could make a more accurate list. Or maybe just a list on specific Radiants (like your examples on Jasnah and Kaladin demonstrate). We'll see. But for now this is as close as I could get. Appreciate your contribution to the discussion. Pinned for future viewers to get a better understanding of everything :)
Came here to say the same thing. Thanks for saving me the effort of typing all of this out! Of course it probably wouldn’t have been this well laid out, but it should’ve gotten the point across.
I have to dispute Elsecallers being so low. You just kind of brush off that they can turn your skin into fire from a distance or shoot force lightning at you. That would be a great ability to kill at range and you all but sweep it under the rug because their secondary ability isn't specifically tailored to combat
@@BlackHand531 Plate just about negates everything. At the end of the day, a Knight vs Knight fight comes down to who runs out of stormlight first. As an Elsecaller, if you start getting toward the end of your stormlight, you can just transport your enemy away and live to fight another day. In fact, I would argue that sending your enemy into Shadesmar with very little stormlight left can very well be a death sentence. We saw how long it took Jasnah to find her way back, after not taking any stormlight with her.
Technically Renarin didn't use Progression on himself. Just regular Radiant healing. But I will agree that Progression can be super OP if used right (though the circumstances for that would be rare)
It had to be progression If a radiant loses their head they are dead. Having your head smashed to a pancake and EVERYTHING crushed into little bits is enough to kill most knights. It had to be progression that increased his healing abilities.
@@RavensRants The book made it clear that he was healing faster than any radiant would normally do so it had to be progression combined with normally radiant healing.
@@oscarchavezavellan2738 I agree that progression must have been what he used to heal so quickly making both edgedancers and dustbringers even more deadly
I think it's important to note, in a radiant vs. Radiant battle, seemingly offensive surges would be a lot less useful. It is much harder to use surgebinding against other invested beings. Not sure dustbringers or skybreakers could turn other radiants to dust as easily as you imply, especially if they were full of stormlight.
I respect your ranking of Bondsmith, but I’d personally rank them significantly higher since I view the fight in RoW to be very relevant. Ishar’s feats against Dalinar are regular Bondsmith capabilities refined and expanded and “unbound”. Theoretically Dalinar or any other Bondsmith could do the same sorts of things with all of their Oaths. And knowledge. And time. And constrained by their Oaths. Okay, maybe it’s not fair to compare the “average” Bondsmith to a Herald with his/her Honorblae. Fascinating video as always! Plus I read your reply in the pinned comment.
I dont think we know enough about many of the orders yet. Progression, cohesion and other surges could prove just as powerful in a combat scenario in the future when we have seen more. Characters like venli have only gotten to the second ideal just now, so we haven't seen much of what they can potentially do.
100% Agree that we're very behind on our Radiant knowledge. I just wanted to make a video like this given what we know now. Maybe I'll do an update to this once we're further into the series :)
**Possible spoilers** Edgedancers also have regrowth - which would allow them to heal (themselves) much more rapidly. I know it was Renarin as Truthwatcher instead of Lift, but he basically healed himself instantly from being smashed. While not invulnerable (double gold compounding anyone?), this is as close as Stormlight gets to that healing. That certainly puts them higher in fighting ability I think.
@@RavensRants I seem to remember others (in world) commenting that he healed much faster than a normal radiant would. It has been several months since I read it though.
I think that Edgedancers become much more deadly when you factor in Shardblades. Lots of mobility mixed with an insta kill weapon is a deadly combination. Think of how deadly normal non radiant Shardbearers are, and then imagine one of those who can effortlessly glide through an entire army. If they have Shardplate too thats even more dangerous because they almost dont have to worry about defense at all.
Illumination is op in combat. You could just make it look like you are swinging from one direction but swing from another, or make clones and stuff. Idk I just think it’s hella versatile
I feel like your overlooking a huge component of knights radiant. Unlike fused, who have taken 1 surge to its max potential, they instead have 2 surges that can combine. Transportation is huge for how it can be combined with cohesion or transformation as we saw jesnah use it to remotely transmute opponents. And think about the other hybrid abilities each order would have that we haven't seen. We've only seen hybrid abilities from wind runners, light weavers, and else callers
If you are a Elsecaller or Willshaper then having transportation is kinda OP. Think about, they can at any point sneak attack their opponent because they can travel too and from Shadesmar. Imaging weilding arrows from Shadesmar through a portal that appears briefly and then disappears.
I don't know about ranking them in a fight purely based on destructive potential. Having said that, I would have a difficult time ranking them at all, due to the asymmetrical nature of their usefulness on a battlefield. Rapid response medics? extremely important. The ability to transport troops rapidly to unforeseen parts of the battlefield? extremely useful. The ability to predict potential outcomes and avoid them? very useful information. The ability to actively manipulate the terrain on which you are fighting? top tier tactics. Sun Tzu is rolling in his grave.
@@RavensRants 'Sun Tzu's Rhythm of War.' secondary thought: I understand putting the truthwatchers last, but I think it is primarily because we know so little about their powers. Even what little we've seen are the powers of an enlightened truthwatcher, not a radiant truthwatcher, so we still don't fully understand how their powers of illumination and progression are interpreted by their spren.
@@rhystaylor6939 I know their illumination is slightly different than lightweavers, but couldn't they make illuctions too that would allow them to trick people
@@lancewhitesides888 so far the little I've seen, which is basically just snippets in books 2, 3 and 4 the truthwatcher interpretation of illumination is shedding light on truth and the future. I think the idea of using light to deceive would be abhorrent to the ideals of a truthwatcher. More likely you would use them for psyops and propaganda to make the enemy see the truth of your side of the conflict.
Been going back through the series again to get ready for book 5, and being in the thick of it again when I found this leaves me to think that there's been one massive omission here. Creativity hasn't been considered. Illumination isn't a strong surge on it's own, but when Shallan hides inside of an illusiory boulder in Words of Radiance, it entierly cuts off the light. A proficient, combat oriented Radiant with that surge could use it as a flashbang, become entierly invisible, blind their opponent directly without care for how Invested that opponent is by placing a 'solid' lightweaving around their head. Fighting someone with that level of creativity would be an absolute nightmare, especially if they could either transform reality itself inside of those illusions so that some of them had real impact and others didn't and you didn't have any way to tell. Alternatively it would be nearly as bad if you just couldn't meaningfully hurt them. If what few strikes you do manage to land are instantly healed then you are truely helpless. Transportation is also under represented here. Or at least it's potentially under represented. Consider the Nex-im for a moment. If Radiant Transportation can do something in some fashion similar to that when properly understood then it is potentially the greatest combat ability. Instantanious dodging, repositioning and generally making movement irrelevant. If you can put yourself into an arc that your foe cannot strike you from, but you can hit them, you all but garuntee a win. Especially if you have a Shardblade. Cohesion was handled generally fairly, though I do feel compelled to point out that it is not limited to stone only. So in theory a Radiant with that surge could just time the use of Cohesion well and allow for themselves to be struck with a non invested weapon.. which would then deform around their bodies rather harmlessly while simultaniously disarming their opponents. Last point I'm going to bring up is Bondsmiths.. they use their surges strangely. To the point that I'm not sure they can do the regular forms of sticking things together physically or harderning/softening physical objects. They also seem to be able to access whatever sort of light their bonded spren creates. Which does give them one massive advantage, they can just top up on Storm/Tower/Lifelight whenever they need too.
Combat scenario: Windrunner vs truthwatcher. Truthwatcher confuses Windrunner with numerous illusions, places his hand on the Windrunner and causes him to immediately explode from tumors that the truthwatcher causes to rapidly grow
Elixer from the X men did something like this when he was a member of x force as did the black king from drifters. Additionally, the human body is host to thousands of different kinds of bacteria, dormant viruses and even fungi spores all of which could be manipulated by the surge of progression for terrifying effect
I really think this is a hard list to make because I don't believe all orders are so much for hand to hand combat. From what the book is saying the bondsmiths are the most powerful but they aren't fighters. It's the bondsmiths that kept the fused on braize so in one light who could be more important than that. I love your work and I would like to see a video on which orders are most important in the war overall.
Great list! However, I have to question your ranking of Edgedancers above Elsecallers. You mention that the Surges of Transportation and Progression are pretty much useless in a fight, which means this is mostly a competition between Transformation and Abrasion. It seems to me that Transformation would be the winner here. The Elsecaller could just engulf the Edgedancer in flames or encase them in stone. No amount of slipperiness could get them out of that.
Good point. But I'd counter that the Edgedancer could escape being encased in flames due to sheer speed and agility. Perhaps the Elsecaller could trap them in stone, but I doubt they would be accurate enough to catch someone zipping by at incredible speeds with a living Shardblade at the ready.
@@RavensRants I suppose it depends on how large an area the Elsecaller can transform. If they can transform an area twenty metres squared, then accuracy won't matter much, unless the Edgedancers can move faster than we've seen so far such that they cross a distance almost faster than the eye can see.
bondsmiths are definitely number 1 without question. dalinar is shown to be creating perpendicularities regularly and is hinted at being capable of much more
If this is just a combat ranking it should be titled like that, there are some Radiant orders that have HUGE potential but doesn't mean they are bad because they don't fight :P!
While we can't say for certain I always figured Stonewardens are going to be the strongest combatants just because their abilities seem the most combat oriented and the other knights have more utility. Also considering their herald is the greatest warrior of the heralds it would track that his knights would also be the best fighters.
While their powers don't sound all that impressive, we've never actually seen a proficient stonewarden in action. And Taln, who is stated as being hands down the strongest herald, is the patron of this order.
Transportation doesn't seem to be teleportation, but the ability to easily enter into Shadesmar. It is still difficult for them to return, possibly easier than anyone else, but difficult nonetheless.
@@avatariroh0543 some stormlight websites say that past orders of elsecallers truly could teleport, plus in rythym of war the Pursuer used the surge of transportation and he could teleport making him incredibly deadly. So much so that his biggest flaw was overconfidence. As soon as they can discover how he did that else-callers are easily the most dangerous radiants.
@@lancewhitesides888 yeah, been doing a reread of SA and realized that the oathgates are the surge fabrial for transportation. Don’t truly know how it will manifest as a Radiant surge, though. Jasnah seems to be incapable of using her surge in any way similar to an oathgate, save for the realmatic transition aspect. The Pursuer seems to use the surge more in its motion aspect, moving freely within a space, but not really teleporting. Ultimately, we will just have to read and find out.
@@lancewhitesides888 also, it is important to distinguish Surgebinding from Voidbinding. What’s true for one is not necessarily true for the other, as they seem to differ slightly in the manifestation of surges.
I don’t see why transportation is so week, you could teleport around the battlefield and teleport others high into the air. You could vanish behind the enemy and stab them in the back with your shard blade. Transportation is very powerful is used correctly.
@@RavensRants My bad I’m not fully though the finale book but didn’t shallan open a portal to shadesmar, she dose not have transportation. And then what surge did the pursuer have. I thought it was transportation and that’s how he teleported.
As a Radiant transportation only refers to opening a perpendicularity to Shadesmar. As a Singer, it means doing what the Pursuer can do. But it's very much not a great combat skill for a Radiant.
Raven’s Rants since this is the first time I’m watching this video since getting caught up with the Cosmere as a whole I can put in my two cents to say that it is a rather logical list however I think there is one thing that no one but me has thought about so far. The same Surge that allows Dustbringers and Edgedancers to manipulate Friction to decrease it can also be used to INCREASE it. This immediately made me think of the anime One Piece where certain characters legs are strong enough to literally kick off of the air under them to not just stay in the air but also maneuver in the air. It’s called Moon Walk or Sky Walk depending on the character. By that logic a Dustbringer or an Edgedancer could increase the friction under their feet to cause the exact same effect. Since the Skybreakers Air Superiority put them over the Dustbringers on this list I think the ability to Sky Walk would not just even the playing field but place the Dustbringers at number 1 on this list…
That seems like a really interesting application of increased friction. Coming from a physics perspective though I don't know if that would really be terribly practical. The force due to friction on an object can only act latterally to the motion of the individual. furthermore friction always depends on the normal force that a surface pushes back with. You could increase the friction of a collection of air molecules so that they mount extreme resistance to being pushed down against each other, but without increasing the density of the air and assuming Brandon cares about conservation of momentum those air molecules would have to be pushed rapidly downwards in order to move a more massive body upwards at a much slower velocity. The effort intensity of this would be much greater than that of changing your gravitational constant. I do think they may be able to walk on air, slowly, but they will never truly fly, much less at the speed that a windrunner who could use adhesion to break the resistant drag force apart could. I think perhaps a super cool application of the surge of abrasion would be to increase someone else's friction factor so that while trying to move they are abraised by the ground and air around them that either damages them or makes it obsessively difficult to move. Especially a skybreaker flying at highspeed I could see this causing them to burn up like a commet entering the atmosphere
@@lancewhitesides888 thanks for the analysis and reply! Ok so Dustbringers have Division which “splits the molecular bonds of an object, but not the Axi themselves.” Theoretically could you use Abrasion to increase the Air Molecules resistance and then use Division in tandem with that to break apart those Molecular Bonds? This would theoretically generate the necessary energy to overcome the gravitational constant right? I’m not saying it would be an easy maneuver to learn but it should still be possible maybe just not with Abrasion alone…
Great job. I think Bondsmith is the most powerful because it can take your personality, your self-perception and, for example, bind it to a stone with a bond and destroy it, killing you. Plus it can 'steal' your bond if you're a knight and take your light and Spren (which is hard but whatever). I had no idea that the Szeth could be so powerful, because so far I have only seen it fly with the Nightbood, but I hope they will do something beautiful-terrible. And I'm more afraid of Lightewever than the Windrunners because they can turn the hanging into stone or (I think) fire + have blades to start, and the Windrunners is less useful without them.
You only mention the stoneward ability to stiffen objects, but they can also soften things, which they could easily use to trap an opponent in the ground
how does adhesion make them resist destruction that makes no sense also wind runners were the soldiers of the radiants and skybreakers were the police that keeps the radiants inline it makes sense that they would be stronger than them its like this. bondsmiths are commanders skybreaker are officers and windrunners are soldiers if u put it in terms of armies
We haven’t seen it yet, but if a bondsmith can create bonds then it’s not a stretch for them to be able to severe bonds permanently (or on a temporary basis) once they speak higher ideals.
As a Willshaper wannabe, I think they are appropriately placed toward the bottom. I think the Bondsmiths could be above them though, since I think their skills shown recently shouldn’t necessarily be viewed as so rare in my opinion. (Mainly since there are so few Bondsmiths.)
Just took the quiz and got Elsecaller too. Started watching this video and somewhat agree Elsecallers may not be the best in a one on one fight. The potential for worldhopping is my favorite ability.
I love a lot of things you mention in this video but I have to argue about your placement of bond-smith as we already know that each order “interprets” their surges differently may that be through two orders having the same surge at a different power level and it is also known that bond-smiths interpret their surges as connection between minds rather than the more physical forms of these surges other orders interpret them as, along with the fact their are only three Soren’s that bond to create bond smiths and these all happen to be the mostly heavily invested splinters on roshar means, at least for me, bondsmiths are and easy top place.
The fact the Jezrien is the patron of the windrunners, makes me think it should be number one, but I honestly can’t disagree with your top 3. Based on their current iteration, I think the Skybreakers are somewhat weaker, but given your framing, I totally agree.
Yeah, but there's evidence to suggest that Skybreakers can manipulate lightning once they swear the 4th or 5th ideal. Definitely remaking the list once we have more books out with more info
imagine if skybreakers can divide the space around them to essentially teleport short or long distances, like they divide the space to make the distance between them and a object shorter
Bro, Bondsmiths #9??? What did the god-king of Tukar teach you? He did ridiculously powerful things that we don't even understand. Heck, Ishar with his Bondsmith abilities changed the world and created the orders, potentially the spren and the surgebinding
Hey man, nice video! I had some questions about how abrasion works. I didn't realize that people with the surge of abrasion could also increase the friction of themselves or an object. Do you think this would allow them to climb up very steep or slick surfaces, or maybe allow them to sprint or make sharp movements and turns on things such as ice? Also, what do you think would happen if somebody were to use the surge of abrasion to make their entire body frictionless while they were in water? I know this is an oddly specific and technical/sciencey question, so if you don't know that's okay. But would they fall through the water as if they were in air, since there would be no friction against the water? Or would their body's buoyancy keep them floating? Anyway, just something I was considering. Again, fantastic video!
Honestly wouldn't be able to say for sure since we've never seen it. But with Lift becoming a main character in the back 5 books, we'll probably learn more
Might be cliche but I took the Knights radiant test and was a wind runner. So I’m all about that shit. But hey the dustbringers sound dope. Same with stonewards
I'd easily flip Truthwatcher and Bondsmith. Bondsmith lacks an important combat advantage. Shardblade and Shardplate. And surges like tension and adhesion aren't nearly as useful against Plate or Blade because they are so heavily Invested.
Those without a blade would be weakest. So I disagree with the order of #9 and #10. On a methodological level, you have misunderstood the nature of combat without firearms. Fortresses rule supreme. You cannot just knock down walls with cannons, nor can you besiege them long due to Highstorms.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned that the video was specifically looking at surges and combat abilities. I had no reason to look at sieges and fortifications because that wasn't the point of the video. Also all Radiants had blades with the likely exception of Bondsmiths.
@@RavensRants But thf you are a user of Cohesion you will errect obstacles and defenses. Likewise if you have Abrasion you will seek to use the environment to a maximum degree, You cause landslides. You go up on inclines your enemy has no secure stance on. And Elsecallers will appear behind their enemies, above them; Willshapers potentially even below them. The art of war is making optimal use of terrain. A fortress need not be a castle. The defensive qualities of a simple earthen berm or a ditch are huge.
I have to disagree with your ranking of truthwatchers. Imagine one disguising himself as one of the enemy soldiers and stabbing people in the back, then changing his disguise a little bit and repeating the trick.
I feel like Elsecaller is too far down on the list; yes Transformation can be used to create stone around someone or turn their skin to fire, but it can also be use used to turn stone to air, stealling Willshapers and Stonewards ability to mold stone, an Elsecaller could also make stone platforms in the air, hopping from one to another continuiously to combat Windrunners and Skybreakers; Transportation could also be very useful in a fight as it allows and Elsecaller or Willshaper to look into Shadesmar to see the life force of any hiden enemies, which would be very useful against Lightweavers and Truthwatchers, and even Willshapers and Stonewards if they are hiding within stone. In other words, they're kinda op; and yes I'm an Elsecaller
Dalinar being ranked 9th, but considered ranking him last in terms of battlefield usefulness/strength? strong disagree. couldn't make it past that in the video...
I'm sorry and I don't mean to be this harsh but... you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You don't see how the ability to teleport around a battlefield, say, directly behind your opponent, would be offensively useful? Or the ability to open a pit in the ground lined with spikes, and once someone falls in, close it over them? Or just touch the ground and have it flow and shoot a dozen spikes at the enemy? I don't think you've actually given any of these Orders or Surges any thought.
@@benarkos539 okay. Are you for some reason under the impression that Elsecallers are the only people on the planet with access to Transportation? Also why exactly does "one single example of one person in one fight" somehow prove that something isn't possible? You have already made several mistakes and you're still saying that you have proven you're absolutely right. Just calm down, take a step back, and try to say something reasonable. Because right now, confidently saying wrong things and declaring victory is doing nothing but making you look like a fool.
@@macmay3042 Elsecallers were the ones mentioned in the video. So can you mention one chapter where any elsecaller used transportation like you're explaining here? Cause even Jasnah, one the most skilled explained how difficult the process is
My only complaint with Sanderson is that he doesn’t seem to know how to move a character past their issues and have them grow. 4 books and these broken people just can’t grow emotionally.
This is a very interesting list. Not all of the orders of Radiants are able to use their surges the same way others do. We're told that Windrunners are much better with Gravitation than Skybreakers are. We also have to take into account how much stormlight something takes to do and how different it is when trying to affect shardplate, shardblades, or Invested Entities. I think if both Radiants have shardplate and shardblades, surges like division become less valuable.
Because of this, I don't think we can be sure of anything without actually having experience on the field with these Radiants. The Shin may be the only ones who can tell us which order is best in combat, but ofc even they don't have shardplate or malleable blades.
The only thing I can really say is that a lot of surge usage comes down to individual skill. Jasnah, despite being of the order that is #7 on this list, is one of the most fearsome warriors in the series because she's *so good* at what she does. Kaladin bests a few Skybreakers despite their order being #1 and his #3 because he's more proficient with his surges.
Anyway, this is about as close as I think we can come to a definitive list (short of asking Sanderson himself), but in the end, combat will always come down to individual skill rather than base power level.
I 100% agree. I knew there was no way of making this a concise video if I tried to fit it all in. There's so much nuance and conditions to consider. All I could do to level the playing field was to focus on the surges and basically disregard all other factors. Maybe one day when we're a few books further in and we've seen more Radiant combat, I could make a more accurate list. Or maybe just a list on specific Radiants (like your examples on Jasnah and Kaladin demonstrate). We'll see. But for now this is as close as I could get.
Appreciate your contribution to the discussion. Pinned for future viewers to get a better understanding of everything :)
Came here to say the same thing. Thanks for saving me the effort of typing all of this out! Of course it probably wouldn’t have been this well laid out, but it should’ve gotten the point across.
Your right. Good work
"Elsecallers could transport their enemies, but I wouldn't consider that winning the fight." Spoken like someone who lost to an Elsecaller.
Abrasion allows control over friction of other things too. See Edge dancer when Lift uses it to make a window open quietly
I have to dispute Elsecallers being so low. You just kind of brush off that they can turn your skin into fire from a distance or shoot force lightning at you. That would be a great ability to kill at range and you all but sweep it under the rug because their secondary ability isn't specifically tailored to combat
I think that plate resist this, but to someone who isn't 4 ideal and up, it's probably affective.
@@BlackHand531 Plate just about negates everything. At the end of the day, a Knight vs Knight fight comes down to who runs out of stormlight first. As an Elsecaller, if you start getting toward the end of your stormlight, you can just transport your enemy away and live to fight another day. In fact, I would argue that sending your enemy into Shadesmar with very little stormlight left can very well be a death sentence. We saw how long it took Jasnah to find her way back, after not taking any stormlight with her.
We did see Renarin get crushed by a thunderclast and get right back up. Progression is powerful.
Technically Renarin didn't use Progression on himself. Just regular Radiant healing. But I will agree that Progression can be super OP if used right (though the circumstances for that would be rare)
It had to be progression
If a radiant loses their head they are dead. Having your head smashed to a pancake and EVERYTHING crushed into little bits is enough to kill most knights. It had to be progression that increased his healing abilities.
@@RavensRants The book made it clear that he was healing faster than any radiant would normally do so it had to be progression combined with normally radiant healing.
@@oscarchavezavellan2738 I agree that progression must have been what he used to heal so quickly making both edgedancers and dustbringers even more deadly
I think it's important to note, in a radiant vs. Radiant battle, seemingly offensive surges would be a lot less useful. It is much harder to use surgebinding against other invested beings. Not sure dustbringers or skybreakers could turn other radiants to dust as easily as you imply, especially if they were full of stormlight.
I respect your ranking of Bondsmith, but I’d personally rank them significantly higher since I view the fight in RoW to be very relevant. Ishar’s feats against Dalinar are regular Bondsmith capabilities refined and expanded and “unbound”. Theoretically Dalinar or any other Bondsmith could do the same sorts of things with all of their Oaths. And knowledge. And time. And constrained by their Oaths.
Okay, maybe it’s not fair to compare the “average” Bondsmith to a Herald with his/her Honorblae. Fascinating video as always! Plus I read your reply in the pinned comment.
Lol yeah Bondsmiths were tough to rank. I'd personally like to see where Sanderson takes them in future books
I dont think we know enough about many of the orders yet. Progression, cohesion and other surges could prove just as powerful in a combat scenario in the future when we have seen more. Characters like venli have only gotten to the second ideal just now, so we haven't seen much of what they can potentially do.
100% Agree that we're very behind on our Radiant knowledge. I just wanted to make a video like this given what we know now. Maybe I'll do an update to this once we're further into the series :)
**Possible spoilers** Edgedancers also have regrowth - which would allow them to heal (themselves) much more rapidly. I know it was Renarin as Truthwatcher instead of Lift, but he basically healed himself instantly from being smashed. While not invulnerable (double gold compounding anyone?), this is as close as Stormlight gets to that healing. That certainly puts them higher in fighting ability I think.
I don't know if he used regrowth or just normal Stormlight healing
@@RavensRants I seem to remember others (in world) commenting that he healed much faster than a normal radiant would. It has been several months since I read it though.
@@tylerh3526 Adolin specifically commented on it and we can make our own observations. Renarin healed lightning fast compared to the other radiants.
@@RavensRants Yeah he healed up quite fast in oathbringer
I think that Edgedancers become much more deadly when you factor in Shardblades. Lots of mobility mixed with an insta kill weapon is a deadly combination. Think of how deadly normal non radiant Shardbearers are, and then imagine one of those who can effortlessly glide through an entire army. If they have Shardplate too thats even more dangerous because they almost dont have to worry about defense at all.
Illumination is op in combat. You could just make it look like you are swinging from one direction but swing from another, or make clones and stuff. Idk I just think it’s hella versatile
I feel like your overlooking a huge component of knights radiant. Unlike fused, who have taken 1 surge to its max potential, they instead have 2 surges that can combine. Transportation is huge for how it can be combined with cohesion or transformation as we saw jesnah use it to remotely transmute opponents. And think about the other hybrid abilities each order would have that we haven't seen. We've only seen hybrid abilities from wind runners, light weavers, and else callers
True. I will eventually be doing an updated version of this video
If you are a Elsecaller or Willshaper then having transportation is kinda OP. Think about, they can at any point sneak attack their opponent because they can travel too and from Shadesmar. Imaging weilding arrows from Shadesmar through a portal that appears briefly and then disappears.
I don't know about ranking them in a fight purely based on destructive potential. Having said that, I would have a difficult time ranking them at all, due to the asymmetrical nature of their usefulness on a battlefield. Rapid response medics? extremely important. The ability to transport troops rapidly to unforeseen parts of the battlefield? extremely useful. The ability to predict potential outcomes and avoid them? very useful information. The ability to actively manipulate the terrain on which you are fighting? top tier tactics. Sun Tzu is rolling in his grave.
Lol you make good points. I'd love to somehow turn that into a video idea
@@RavensRants 'Sun Tzu's Rhythm of War.' secondary thought: I understand putting the truthwatchers last, but I think it is primarily because we know so little about their powers. Even what little we've seen are the powers of an enlightened truthwatcher, not a radiant truthwatcher, so we still don't fully understand how their powers of illumination and progression are interpreted by their spren.
@@rhystaylor6939 I know their illumination is slightly different than lightweavers, but couldn't they make illuctions too that would allow them to trick people
@@lancewhitesides888 so far the little I've seen, which is basically just snippets in books 2, 3 and 4 the truthwatcher interpretation of illumination is shedding light on truth and the future. I think the idea of using light to deceive would be abhorrent to the ideals of a truthwatcher. More likely you would use them for psyops and propaganda to make the enemy see the truth of your side of the conflict.
You’re awesome man. Big fan of your videos and never stop making them!
I predict that transportation will also include teleportation at some point, making Elsecallers terrifying
Been going back through the series again to get ready for book 5, and being in the thick of it again when I found this leaves me to think that there's been one massive omission here.
Creativity hasn't been considered.
Illumination isn't a strong surge on it's own, but when Shallan hides inside of an illusiory boulder in Words of Radiance, it entierly cuts off the light. A proficient, combat oriented Radiant with that surge could use it as a flashbang, become entierly invisible, blind their opponent directly without care for how Invested that opponent is by placing a 'solid' lightweaving around their head. Fighting someone with that level of creativity would be an absolute nightmare, especially if they could either transform reality itself inside of those illusions so that some of them had real impact and others didn't and you didn't have any way to tell. Alternatively it would be nearly as bad if you just couldn't meaningfully hurt them. If what few strikes you do manage to land are instantly healed then you are truely helpless.
Transportation is also under represented here. Or at least it's potentially under represented. Consider the Nex-im for a moment. If Radiant Transportation can do something in some fashion similar to that when properly understood then it is potentially the greatest combat ability. Instantanious dodging, repositioning and generally making movement irrelevant. If you can put yourself into an arc that your foe cannot strike you from, but you can hit them, you all but garuntee a win. Especially if you have a Shardblade.
Cohesion was handled generally fairly, though I do feel compelled to point out that it is not limited to stone only. So in theory a Radiant with that surge could just time the use of Cohesion well and allow for themselves to be struck with a non invested weapon.. which would then deform around their bodies rather harmlessly while simultaniously disarming their opponents.
Last point I'm going to bring up is Bondsmiths.. they use their surges strangely. To the point that I'm not sure they can do the regular forms of sticking things together physically or harderning/softening physical objects. They also seem to be able to access whatever sort of light their bonded spren creates. Which does give them one massive advantage, they can just top up on Storm/Tower/Lifelight whenever they need too.
Combat scenario: Windrunner vs truthwatcher. Truthwatcher confuses Windrunner with numerous illusions, places his hand on the Windrunner and causes him to immediately explode from tumors that the truthwatcher causes to rapidly grow
Brutal
Elixer from the X men did something like this when he was a member of x force as did the black king from drifters. Additionally, the human body is host to thousands of different kinds of bacteria, dormant viruses and even fungi spores all of which could be manipulated by the surge of progression for terrifying effect
I really think this is a hard list to make because I don't believe all orders are so much for hand to hand combat. From what the book is saying the bondsmiths are the most powerful but they aren't fighters. It's the bondsmiths that kept the fused on braize so in one light who could be more important than that. I love your work and I would like to see a video on which orders are most important in the war overall.
I agree with your points. And I may just do something like that :)
Great list! However, I have to question your ranking of Edgedancers above Elsecallers. You mention that the Surges of Transportation and Progression are pretty much useless in a fight, which means this is mostly a competition between Transformation and Abrasion. It seems to me that Transformation would be the winner here. The Elsecaller could just engulf the Edgedancer in flames or encase them in stone. No amount of slipperiness could get them out of that.
Good point. But I'd counter that the Edgedancer could escape being encased in flames due to sheer speed and agility. Perhaps the Elsecaller could trap them in stone, but I doubt they would be accurate enough to catch someone zipping by at incredible speeds with a living Shardblade at the ready.
@@RavensRants I suppose it depends on how large an area the Elsecaller can transform. If they can transform an area twenty metres squared, then accuracy won't matter much, unless the Edgedancers can move faster than we've seen so far such that they cross a distance almost faster than the eye can see.
@@Walpurgis117 Good point. There's so much we don't know about their abilities yet. We need a Stormlight game 😂
bondsmiths are definitely number 1 without question. dalinar is shown to be creating perpendicularities regularly and is hinted at being capable of much more
If this is just a combat ranking it should be titled like that, there are some Radiant orders that have HUGE potential but doesn't mean they are bad because they don't fight :P!
While we can't say for certain I always figured Stonewardens are going to be the strongest combatants just because their abilities seem the most combat oriented and the other knights have more utility. Also considering their herald is the greatest warrior of the heralds it would track that his knights would also be the best fighters.
While their powers don't sound all that impressive, we've never actually seen a proficient stonewarden in action. And Taln, who is stated as being hands down the strongest herald, is the patron of this order.
With transportation surge can u teleport behind the opponent? That would make transportation surge not useless in a fight
Transportation doesn't seem to be teleportation, but the ability to easily enter into Shadesmar. It is still difficult for them to return, possibly easier than anyone else, but difficult nonetheless.
@@avatariroh0543 some stormlight websites say that past orders of elsecallers truly could teleport, plus in rythym of war the Pursuer used the surge of transportation and he could teleport making him incredibly deadly. So much so that his biggest flaw was overconfidence. As soon as they can discover how he did that else-callers are easily the most dangerous radiants.
@@lancewhitesides888 yeah, been doing a reread of SA and realized that the oathgates are the surge fabrial for transportation. Don’t truly know how it will manifest as a Radiant surge, though. Jasnah seems to be incapable of using her surge in any way similar to an oathgate, save for the realmatic transition aspect. The Pursuer seems to use the surge more in its motion aspect, moving freely within a space, but not really teleporting. Ultimately, we will just have to read and find out.
@@lancewhitesides888 also, it is important to distinguish Surgebinding from Voidbinding. What’s true for one is not necessarily true for the other, as they seem to differ slightly in the manifestation of surges.
I don’t see why transportation is so week, you could teleport around the battlefield and teleport others high into the air. You could vanish behind the enemy and stab them in the back with your shard blade. Transportation is very powerful is used correctly.
Transportation only opens a portal to Shadesmar. It doesn't work the way you described
@@RavensRants My bad I’m not fully though the finale book but didn’t shallan open a portal to shadesmar, she dose not have transportation. And then what surge did the pursuer have. I thought it was transportation and that’s how he teleported.
As a Radiant transportation only refers to opening a perpendicularity to Shadesmar. As a Singer, it means doing what the Pursuer can do. But it's very much not a great combat skill for a Radiant.
@@RavensRants ok thanks
Raven’s Rants since this is the first time I’m watching this video since getting caught up with the Cosmere as a whole I can put in my two cents to say that it is a rather logical list however I think there is one thing that no one but me has thought about so far. The same Surge that allows Dustbringers and Edgedancers to manipulate Friction to decrease it can also be used to INCREASE it. This immediately made me think of the anime One Piece where certain characters legs are strong enough to literally kick off of the air under them to not just stay in the air but also maneuver in the air. It’s called Moon Walk or Sky Walk depending on the character. By that logic a Dustbringer or an Edgedancer could increase the friction under their feet to cause the exact same effect. Since the Skybreakers Air Superiority put them over the Dustbringers on this list I think the ability to Sky Walk would not just even the playing field but place the Dustbringers at number 1 on this list…
That seems like a really interesting application of increased friction. Coming from a physics perspective though I don't know if that would really be terribly practical. The force due to friction on an object can only act latterally to the motion of the individual. furthermore friction always depends on the normal force that a surface pushes back with. You could increase the friction of a collection of air molecules so that they mount extreme resistance to being pushed down against each other, but without increasing the density of the air and assuming Brandon cares about conservation of momentum those air molecules would have to be pushed rapidly downwards in order to move a more massive body upwards at a much slower velocity. The effort intensity of this would be much greater than that of changing your gravitational constant. I do think they may be able to walk on air, slowly, but they will never truly fly, much less at the speed that a windrunner who could use adhesion to break the resistant drag force apart could. I think perhaps a super cool application of the surge of abrasion would be to increase someone else's friction factor so that while trying to move they are abraised by the ground and air around them that either damages them or makes it obsessively difficult to move. Especially a skybreaker flying at highspeed I could see this causing them to burn up like a commet entering the atmosphere
@@lancewhitesides888 thanks for the analysis and reply! Ok so Dustbringers have Division which “splits the molecular bonds of an object, but not the Axi themselves.” Theoretically could you use Abrasion to increase the Air Molecules resistance and then use Division in tandem with that to break apart those Molecular Bonds? This would theoretically generate the necessary energy to overcome the gravitational constant right? I’m not saying it would be an easy maneuver to learn but it should still be possible maybe just not with Abrasion alone…
Great job.
I think Bondsmith is the most powerful because it can take your personality, your self-perception and, for example, bind it to a stone with a bond and destroy it, killing you.
Plus it can 'steal' your bond if you're a knight and take your light and Spren (which is hard but whatever).
I had no idea that the Szeth could be so powerful, because so far I have only seen it fly with the Nightbood, but I hope they will do something beautiful-terrible.
And I'm more afraid of Lightewever than the Windrunners because they can turn the hanging into stone or (I think) fire + have blades to start, and the Windrunners is less useful without them.
Hmm you've given me something to think about...
You only mention the stoneward ability to stiffen objects, but they can also soften things, which they could easily use to trap an opponent in the ground
Wind runner is 1...they could resist the destruction of sky breakers or dust bringers by adhesion and this are more powerful
how does adhesion make them resist destruction that makes no sense also wind runners were the soldiers of the radiants and skybreakers were the police that keeps the radiants inline it makes sense that they would be stronger than them its like this. bondsmiths are commanders skybreaker are officers and windrunners are soldiers if u put it in terms of armies
Very nice video, I am interested to know what you think is the best combination of powers (not necessarily a combination of powers that exists)
Hmmm that's tough. Going purely off of the basic idea of how these surges work, I'd probably take Transformation and Gravitation.
We haven’t seen it yet, but if a bondsmith can create bonds then it’s not a stretch for them to be able to severe bonds permanently (or on a temporary basis) once they speak higher ideals.
As a Willshaper wannabe, I think they are appropriately placed toward the bottom. I think the Bondsmiths could be above them though, since I think their skills shown recently shouldn’t necessarily be viewed as so rare in my opinion. (Mainly since there are so few Bondsmiths.)
I'll definitely remake a list once we have more information on the orders
Elsecallers represent! Great video!
Hey I'm an Elsecaller too :D (At least according to the official Knights Radiant quiz, I am)
@@RavensRants I guess that makes us BFFs. Or maybe Elsecallers are too singular 🤔
@@CRohrscheib Elsecallers don't have friends. We have acquaintances, informants, and pawns 😂 at least if the books are anything to go off of😉
@@RavensRants too true 😂😭
Just took the quiz and got Elsecaller too. Started watching this video and somewhat agree Elsecallers may not be the best in a one on one fight. The potential for worldhopping is my favorite ability.
I love a lot of things you mention in this video but I have to argue about your placement of bond-smith as we already know that each order “interprets” their surges differently may that be through two orders having the same surge at a different power level and it is also known that bond-smiths interpret their surges as connection between minds rather than the more physical forms of these surges other orders interpret them as, along with the fact their are only three Soren’s that bond to create bond smiths and these all happen to be the mostly heavily invested splinters on roshar means, at least for me, bondsmiths are and easy top place.
The fact the Jezrien is the patron of the windrunners, makes me think it should be number one, but I honestly can’t disagree with your top 3. Based on their current iteration, I think the Skybreakers are somewhat weaker, but given your framing, I totally agree.
Yeah, but there's evidence to suggest that Skybreakers can manipulate lightning once they swear the 4th or 5th ideal. Definitely remaking the list once we have more books out with more info
imagine if skybreakers can divide the space around them to essentially teleport short or long distances, like they divide the space to make the distance between them and a object shorter
When I did the what order test are you, I got Truthwatchers. Guess I'm going to have to fight smarter not harder.
Bro, Bondsmiths #9??? What did the god-king of Tukar teach you? He did ridiculously powerful things that we don't even understand. Heck, Ishar with his Bondsmith abilities changed the world and created the orders, potentially the spren and the surgebinding
Loved it
Thank you!
This clears up a lot ty
Hey man, nice video! I had some questions about how abrasion works. I didn't realize that people with the surge of abrasion could also increase the friction of themselves or an object. Do you think this would allow them to climb up very steep or slick surfaces, or maybe allow them to sprint or make sharp movements and turns on things such as ice? Also, what do you think would happen if somebody were to use the surge of abrasion to make their entire body frictionless while they were in water? I know this is an oddly specific and technical/sciencey question, so if you don't know that's okay. But would they fall through the water as if they were in air, since there would be no friction against the water? Or would their body's buoyancy keep them floating? Anyway, just something I was considering. Again, fantastic video!
Honestly wouldn't be able to say for sure since we've never seen it. But with Lift becoming a main character in the back 5 books, we'll probably learn more
They can teleport behind you too attack
Might be cliche but I took the Knights radiant test and was a wind runner. So I’m all about that shit. But hey the dustbringers sound dope. Same with stonewards
Lol awesome
I'm a windrunner too bro but hey free travelling.
Ever played paladin in vanilla wow? Progression (+patience) is pretty powerful in combat.
I'd easily flip Truthwatcher and Bondsmith. Bondsmith lacks an important combat advantage. Shardblade and Shardplate. And surges like tension and adhesion aren't nearly as useful against Plate or Blade because they are so heavily Invested.
Truthwatcher is a support class: healing + crowd control.
Those without a blade would be weakest. So I disagree with the order of #9 and #10.
On a methodological level, you have misunderstood the nature of combat without firearms. Fortresses rule supreme. You cannot just knock down walls with cannons, nor can you besiege them long due to Highstorms.
I'm pretty sure I mentioned that the video was specifically looking at surges and combat abilities. I had no reason to look at sieges and fortifications because that wasn't the point of the video. Also all Radiants had blades with the likely exception of Bondsmiths.
@@RavensRants But thf you are a user of Cohesion you will errect obstacles and defenses. Likewise if you have Abrasion you will seek to use the environment to a maximum degree, You cause landslides. You go up on inclines your enemy has no secure stance on. And Elsecallers will appear behind their enemies, above them; Willshapers potentially even below them.
The art of war is making optimal use of terrain. A fortress need not be a castle. The defensive qualities of a simple earthen berm or a ditch are huge.
@@oneukum Hmm you make a very good point. And now I desperately want an action packed stormlight movie or TV show 😂
Engagement for the algorithm gods, comments for the comment throne.
All in sacrifice to the great Algorithm gods! (Thank you by the way :D)
I smell a tabletop nerd. The Emperor protects.
I have to disagree with your ranking of truthwatchers. Imagine one disguising himself as one of the enemy soldiers and stabbing people in the back, then changing his disguise a little bit and repeating the trick.
I feel like Elsecaller is too far down on the list; yes Transformation can be used to create stone around someone or turn their skin to fire, but it can also be use used to turn stone to air, stealling Willshapers and Stonewards ability to mold stone, an Elsecaller could also make stone platforms in the air, hopping from one to another continuiously to combat Windrunners and Skybreakers; Transportation could also be very useful in a fight as it allows and Elsecaller or Willshaper to look into Shadesmar to see the life force of any hiden enemies, which would be very useful against Lightweavers and Truthwatchers, and even Willshapers and Stonewards if they are hiding within stone. In other words, they're kinda op; and yes I'm an Elsecaller
Dalinar being ranked 9th, but considered ranking him last in terms of battlefield usefulness/strength? strong disagree. couldn't make it past that in the video...
Noone can match Kaladin in combat, soo wind runners are on top
*is a very sad Truthwatcher* haha
Aww Truthwatchers are still cool in their own right
Well, illumination means weaves. But that also means these kinds of sounds that rip you apart, lasers, gamma rays... Just to use it well. 🤐💀
I'm sorry and I don't mean to be this harsh but... you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You don't see how the ability to teleport around a battlefield, say, directly behind your opponent, would be offensively useful? Or the ability to open a pit in the ground lined with spikes, and once someone falls in, close it over them? Or just touch the ground and have it flow and shoot a dozen spikes at the enemy?
I don't think you've actually given any of these Orders or Surges any thought.
We've never seen transportation work that way in Stormlight. It usually allows you to teleport to the shadesmar
@@benarkos539 did you not read Rhythm of War?
@@macmay3042 I did. Else callers never actively teleported like that in battle
@@benarkos539 okay. Are you for some reason under the impression that Elsecallers are the only people on the planet with access to Transportation? Also why exactly does "one single example of one person in one fight" somehow prove that something isn't possible?
You have already made several mistakes and you're still saying that you have proven you're absolutely right. Just calm down, take a step back, and try to say something reasonable. Because right now, confidently saying wrong things and declaring victory is doing nothing but making you look like a fool.
@@macmay3042 Elsecallers were the ones mentioned in the video. So can you mention one chapter where any elsecaller used transportation like you're explaining here?
Cause even Jasnah, one the most skilled explained how difficult the process is
Willshapers? Pursuer? :|
My only complaint with Sanderson is that he doesn’t seem to know how to move a character past their issues and have them grow. 4 books and these broken people just can’t grow emotionally.
Yea cus personal growth is just so easy right
@@aidanchilton7899 it doesn’t have to be easy. The main characters can’t get past their hang ups over an entire book series.