No, a lot of times the abuse is covert. Meaning they manipulate people to think they're not abusive. That's a form of abuse where they're looking to control their image and how others see them.
Indeed, and that's the most prevalent type of abuse--covert abuse-- particularly in church leadership. They are covertly dirty, abusive and corrupt when nobody's looking. Nonetheless, the congregation will support these abusers at all times--and these type of church leaders know it and count on it.
I’m experiencing this now. I remember this pastor’s wife from high school. She always liked praise and outdressed everyone else in school. After 35+ years we met and are both “saved”. I didn’t have my guard up. But wow have I experienced that covert cloak of fake holiness and helplessness (Love bombing). Then I introduced her to an associate from the past. Another “Christian”. They insisted on doing outings periodically then they would correct my thoughts and statements. I’m Baptist and they wanted me to join their church when I believe that Holy Spirit leads us to a church. Then they started taking turns with criticism and if I disagreed then something’s inherently wrong with me for having separate beliefs. I’m not into deliverance ministries with a controlling leader who believes members are their personal servants. When I disagreed with the personal insults, I’m just sensitive. I walked away from them and I am convinced they deserve each other. Good riddance to cruel “saved” mean girl manipulation. 😢
I agree with you 100% Confronting these types will get you out of those churches quickly . Usually there is hidden sin at the center of an egotistical cleric . The prophetic movement is one of the most dangerous cultlike ministry I know of because people follow them blindly and not Holy Spirit.
@@KJ-lb4tj Real prophets don't toot their own HORN . Some so called prophets are looking for a following and tickling peoples ears toget followers . I never met a real Prophet or Apostle that didn't bring correction ,conviction and confirmation . Holy Spirit always confirms their ministry when you hear the true word they preach .
I'm cautious re some prophetic movements too, and can see how some can become cultic, especially if some church members are considered not to be fully 'onboard' with an idea. Or if you can't keep up with their 'pace', spiritually, as it were, in terms of keeping up with all that they are saying and doing. I find it concerning that some such groups can tend to be rather dogmatic, and tender love and care seems to be disregarded. I see this as a warning sign. Glad I'm out of one such church.
Thank you for publishing this topic. My abusive narcissist husband, whom I am divorcing, is now becomming a pastor, ie an “untouchable”. I’m disgusted because I know how he is and who he is. He just adopted the ultimate shield. Who would ever guess a man of the cloth is a monster? And if he did have a dark moment, of course, his anger and abuse would be reasonable, wouldnt it? Disgusting.
I saw a lot of spiritual abuse at the last church I served as associate. Bully Pulpit could have been written about that church and gave me the framework to understand what I was experiencing. Thank you for having this conversation.
n light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher. The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church. Flee from anyone calling themselves Pastor.
I really enjoyed this video. I was abused - seriously abused - by a church in Glendale, Arizona in 2015-2016 and left with very damaging scars that still linger today. Ironically, it was an Arizona Gospel Coalition member church and when I reached out to the pastors of the other 15 Arizona Gospel Coalition member churches I was met with only silence. But I have been strengthen lately from books like Michael Kruger’s Bully Pulpit, as well as Chuck DeGroat (When Narcissism Comes to Church), Wade Mullen (Something's Not Right), Lisa Oakley (Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse), and others. The abused are finally beginning to stand up and social media is giving us a voice to uncover what is done in secret by men who claim to represent God but seem to do it for their own selfish needs of controlling and manipulating others.
Hi John, greetings from the UK. Mentioning that those of us who have experienced this are now speaking up & using social media is v helpful, encouraging. They've kept this a quiet, dirty little secret for too long, & now it's all coming out into the open, & I think it's necessary, because too many just won't change. Exposure is what's needed now, to try to warn & protect others too. Seems that these genuinely abusive leaders, covert or overt, have little fear of God & don't care that we too are God's creation, & that by deliberately hurting us hurts Him too, and for that He will judge them if they don't stop. I am no longer so naive as to trust many church leaders or even most christians. Few will stand by you if you speak up about pastoral abuse. Most will abandon you. It's about survival.
@@deniserichardson5018 Thanks for the feedback. The church I was abused at was Crosstrain Church of Glendale, Arizona (and yes, from the name you can tell it may be abusive, as they train you to be acceptable to God) and the pastor was Doug Troyer. It's sickening how they can just do whatever they want to you with the congregation standing by their side thinking they are somehow pleasing to God. What happened to me really opened my eyes and they will never be shut again.
Abuse by pastors is covert and overt. Confronting them seems rarely successful. Other leaders don't usually want to deal with this. They're not equipped, & prefer to 'keep the peace'. So the 'complainant' is 'sacrificed'. Can result in having to leave the church. Changes you. Harder to trust other pastors, commit to a different body of believers. Can be devastating. Some may feel suicidal. Many people don't want to listen. You're swiftly urged to "forgive" & it's all swept under the carpet. Few people care enough, though I'm grateful for those who do. But those of us who have experienced this are also God's creation & by abusing us they're also doing it to God. And they'll have to give an account to Him one day...
This is an astute statement. Thank you. My comfort is that, as you say, the abusers will stand before God one day and be forced to give an account of their actions. Unlike humans, Jesus will not give them a pass, nor can He be fooled. Vengeance is His.
The problem is: people don't want to believe the leader they love and trust is profoundly abusive. They are blind to the subtle signs. Often, congregants aren't trained to pick up on subtle theological errors.
n light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher. The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church. Flee from anyone calling themselves Pastor.
@@1Whipperin Also warned in Scripture to not view anyone else than God, as being our spiritual father. Religious abuse seems to be rooted in grabbing (perceived) spiritual authority over others; this instead of pursuing setting an example through servant leadership: "Follow Me," Jesus said. Probably always an abusive spiritual leader will firstly be displaying similar abusive behaviour in their own home towards their spouse and children.
Regardless of where the abuse occurs--the home, church, workplace, etc.--we ought to consider reported numbers to be shy of reality. Traumatized people often suffer in silence. Abuse is grossly underreported.
I’m a member of a 2,000 member evangelical bible church. The spiritual abuse in this church, led by the pastor and supported by the elders, is so subtle, yet outrageously blatant. I was faced with abuse when the pastor censored a question I asked in response to his post on the church’s social media page. When I challenged his censorship, he doubled down by throwing his Christianity in my face and shaming me for questioning his authority. I was later confronted separately by the associate pastor and an elder, both of whom strongly insinuated that I had done something wrong.
That's because you used the brain God gave you. Well done, welcome to light side. Order conquers chaos. Trouble is the chaos exists, you sought order. Light of the world is actually translated order of the world. Order eats Chaos. Jesus is Lord. The pastor is not the lord.
A wonderful pastor from years ago wrote a brilliant book titled "Healing Spiritual Abuse "How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences." By Ken Blue. Published in 1993 by InterVarsity Press. More needed today than ever befire. I am rereading it, and am blown away by how relevant it is for this precise moment in time in which we find ourselves. So many of these questions answered truthfully and throughly. I have paid a dear price for speaking out against abuse and bad theology. I was the truth teller in my family also, and was rejected for it, so expect people to react negatively.
Yes, rejection is the preferred option of most, it seems, of those who speak out. I know I am viewed by several people to be too negative etc, and am not taken seriously. I have been v isolated for a long time now, & visit several other churches, some miles away, who don't know I'm doing this, & who don't know each other. This is the price some people pay for refusing to allow a pastor/boss/partner etc to bully & severely damage you. But I'm very grateful to the few who have believed me & taken it to heart, & for their prayers. But again, some of these people are even in different countries, safe people, who do care. We just can't expect any church not to have tares, even wolves, even among it's leaders. It's all about survival.
I appreciate your message, which is much needed in the church today. I’m a survivor of horrendous spiritual abuse, so I’ve seen firsthand the cruelty of church leadership. Another reason for the reluctance of some church leaders to speak against spiritual abuse may be because they have been or are guilty of the same or similar behavior. I agree with you. I don't believe there will be a definite, concrete change in spiritual abuse in the church. For one thing, most people love power, it’s intoxicating for some, and the other reason is that pastors/church leaders aren't going to monitor one another effectively, their buddies.
That's because bad leaders will only surround themselves with people who will follow his lead and won't rock the boat. A godly leader will always welcome correction and won't be offended when questioned. If this isn't the case, he is not of God. Guaranteed.
The first time I confronted them, they all started rumors and lies about me. Even my own brother. So I learned the hard way that if you do confront them, they will do whatever it takes to cover themselves up and get everyone to turn against you and they don’t care who they have to use to turn against you. Trust me they will even try to convince your parents that it ain’t true. Then after that they will use pictures to show off to people to prove that they’re nice and not mean and abusive and the church is a good church and they’re good people. Then they will use old pictures of you to prove to people that you’re lying cuz we have old pictures of you doing this looking all happy with the rest of us. Then if you continue to talk and confront them, they will pump up the drama and get groups of people to harm you in every way possible. So when I go to a church and some false pastor or false person in leadership tries to play me, I make sure I let them know in that exact moment right away that you ain’t going to play me and you’re playing yourself. I forgive them and if dumb childish abusive stuff continues to go on, then that’s when I leave the church. Unfortunately I have come to the realization that it’s mostly charismatic churches and small churches and churches who do things in groups that do this kind of stuff. For example churches who always want the church to do things as groups. Like bible study, women’s classes cuz you gotta do things in groups and where there’s groups, there’s problems cuz trust me just like in grade school they group together by bullying you and abusing you; well same with churches. They group up together to attack you. So stand your ground and be nice and say “hi how are you! It’s good to see you” and move on and don’t be gossiping with the rest of the people from these groups cuz they’ll bite your ass and stab you in the back. Even if you’re not gossiping with those people, don’t let them know anything personal about you cuz they will use it against you and will humiliate you in front of the church. Don’t let them know where you work or what field/position you have in your workplace cuz they will get excited and expect huge $$$$$$$$$ from you but first they will kiss your ass to get you to believe that they aren’t using you and once you fall for that, is when the using you for your$$$$$$ begins. God ain’t going to punish you just cuz you don’t tithe or give huge offerings. If you got social security$$$$$ or disability checks$$$$ don’t let them take it from you. Put yourself first. A lot of them churches do take advantage of those people in order to get $$$$$$ if they ask where you work or what you do the answer is always “I’m just busy enjoying life”
Found this timely and well worth hearing - I’m certainly going to get the book. Another author I’d suggest is Diane Langberg who also writes on the subject.
what do u guys think about looking for restedness in dudes trying out for ministry? I know in my case it took a very perceptive & loving eldership to see that I was trying to control myself & others using apologetics. I had a chaotic upbringing so I craved stability, but when I found that stability in Christian truth I leaned hard on my own ability to comprehend & articulate that truth rather than on the person of God. Trust in the Lord with all your heart & don't lean on your own understanding still hits me hard. That reliance or u could say rest is something God had to parent me into over years, via patient elders & members in his body.
In light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher. The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church. Flee from anyone calling themselves Pastor.
17:08 Jeremiah 5v31, 2 Corinthians 11v19,20. I heard from a Christian counsellor on yt video who deals with trauma and bullying, that about 15% of the population has a tendency/trait for bullying. I dont think that statistic is too far off in the church or any religious circles. I want to find both the strength and humility to deal with bullying when I see it, and a tenderness for those who do it (lest i also be ensnared)
I grew up in a very abusive church from birth to 19 years old. It has scarred me for many years. I know many people from all over the U.S. who have experienced abuse in their churches as well. Unfortunately, it's not a new phenomenon.
When I spoke with a former missionary he told me the one thing they looked for was one who was willing to give up their power and control. That is making disciples who make disciples. 2 Timothy 2:2
@@oliviacadena2036 He was a missionary in a another country. One of the problems that a number of mission bards had was sending people who should not have gone. If someone will not give up their power and control they are self centered and not one who is a leader who trains leaders.
@@geraldpolmateer3255 Ohh I see. Thanks for your answer back to me 😊. Yes, that is unfortunate. I can't say that I understand why people like that would be sent elsewhere, actually.
Brilliant Godly strategies to address this growing problem at seminary level.Thank you gentlemen for exploring this dreadful phenomenon occuring in these days.Your insight is incredible and informative..I am so grateful for you acknowledging how people behave in an abusive manner .Such clarity and truthl How does a church become accountable for this abuse though? What process is in place for those being abused in churches to be heard and validated? Churches do not have regularity bodies to govern their conduct. I will buy this book
Pastor's today do not want to be challenge by Scripture or inventoried. Bill Gothard taught an umbrella of protection by a Pastors Authority. John Bevere also teaches submitting to the Pastors even if they are doing a know sin. I will paint a broad brush statement, most Pentecostal Pastors are narcissist. The sheep are to listen to the shepherding without accountability. There is a correlation between spiritual abuse and sexual promiscuity with these pastors. Many of today's sheep are Biblically illiterate. And many Pastor's perfer that. I attended Berean Bible Church our pastor serves at a servant, and teaches a sound Doctrine.
"we" stood up and begged our congregation not to appoint the man who became our pastor. The backlash was very harsh but we decided to stay with our church because it is our "family" 2 years down the line people are seeing the truth but rather than confront it they are slipping away quietly . The pastor has his team of supporters who protect him and our church is dying , what can we do?
protect yourself first. many people over many years have used biblical discernment on public platforms in an attempt to bring awareness of this to Christs body. it’s only gotten worse. i don’t like to think of myself as fatalistic but we can be encouraged by Gods word that none of it surprises God.
Geee, if only these two had been listening to the Pirate Christian Radio podcast, "Fighting for the Faith," by Chris Rosebrough. Rosebrough has addressed and resolved every issue these two good men raised in the first 11 minutes of this video... SINCE 2008!!!! He called out James McDonald and Bill Hybels LONG before they fell, along with the ideology that enables the abuse in churches.
There is a lot of pulpit abuse going on, how can it be regulated? The Catholic church have a structure and if a priest abuses the pulpit it will be addressed. The priest has to be accountable to the bishop. So is there any kind of structure in Christian evangelical, Baptist churches? To prevent further abuse and church hurt? Can anything be done?
Not really, I've gone back into Catholicism myself after years of abuse from a Baptist pastor who has destroyed peoples lives. There is no oversite and when we tried to deal with it through the Baptist Union we were shut down. It's like dealing with The Mafia.
I am in the middle of leaving a spiritual abusive church. Because my family knows the pastor personally and I have been a part of this church for so long, I went to another pastor and his wife to ask how to leave. I was coached on what to do. 1. Over the phone rather than in person. I am a single female, and he is a larger man. You are choosing to leave, that is bravery enough. 2. Try to have a witness listen in or record your call just in case. If they lie or threaten you, you have proof. 3. Say less as possible. You want to leave and find another church. Don't argue, and don't give them a list why. If they want to know why, say at this time I don't want to talk about it. You don't owe them an explanation. 3. If they start yelling, telling you how unfair this all is, use your personal life against you, or try to encourage you stay, then say no, say goodbye, I will pray for blank church. 4. Hang up and do not answer their calls again. Then prepare for backlash. People will be angry, sad, or just straight out shun you. Still say as little as possible. Don't defend yourself or get revenge. God will take care it in His own time. 5. Do not be surprised if your abusive pastor or church members tries to show up and confront you head on to talk. Say no, and it does not matter how concerned they are. Avoid the situation the best you can. You are not emotionally ready for it and if you panic or get angry they will use it against you. 6. Find a good loving church to replace the pain this will cause in you. And remember, you are not leaving God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, you are leaving a bad church. That is not a sin. You have free will and can make decisions in your own life. 7. Don't beat yourself for wasted time. You are free now, and that's what matters. God be with you. Edit: 8. Get professional help and find people to support your decisions. If you are like me, then the situation will or can develop mental health problems like anxiety or depression. Talk to someone you trust and cheers you on. Pray often.
The "truth teller" is the role of the prophet, who is either not recognized as a legitimate voice or is co-opted for different reasons to only tell folks "good news."
n light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher. The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church. Flee from anyone calling themselves Pastor.
There’s a recipe for church abuse that another channel proposed (and I can’t remember the channel) but it’s very simple: dishonesty + unchecked power. Basically if there’s a culture of secrecy and the leaders can’t be challenged or held accountable, they’ll slide into questionable behaviour.
was spiritually abused for 15 years. It’s so freeing getting out from it, however, not many are aware it even exists. See Cara’s inner healing horror for my testimony.
In 1996 there was a youth pastor who seduced me and hooked me into an affair then when the lead pastor found out they spirited him away and that was that. There was also a suicide loosly related to what had happened with us. and I was met with indifference when I needed to talk. I know the lack of closure in that has affected me deeply since.
There is another book written on the topic that was so helpful to me in recovering from pastoral abuse. It is titled Healing Spiritual Abuse How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences, by Dr. Ken Blue, published in 1993 by InterVarsity Press. I had the honor of attending this man's fellowship, and I've him a great debt of gratitude. I had suffered from a very abusive church enviornment. Ken Blue helped me deconstruct from toxic theology and authoritarian control, and find a way to identify the healthy from the unhealthy church environment. If you see this Ken and Patty Blue, I am eternally grateful for rebuilding of my faith demonstrated by your wise and humble leadership. God bless.
I think Reformed Theology has the danger of getting so stuck in theology, that the heart of the congregation is lost. That the concerns and needs of the congregation can be dismissed and treated quickly by throwing verses at the suffering.
I'ts is interesting that people look for pastors that have personality aspects similar to CEO's . Researcher Robert Hair has shown that they seem to have Narcissistic or Sociopathic traits!!!!
But if you think of missionaries who planted churches, their characters were on the whole, humble and unhooked on power. Think Hudson Taylor, David Livingstone etc.
I hope your talking about not the person but all of the relationships they once had but called them on their sin which broke the relationships. Because if the. Path is narrow and few find it, that means the whistle blower is the one who called out the sin. But the world will say if you don’t have lots of friend your the problem bc you don’t get along with everyone.
The "pastor" I was scattered from used the suffering card that he and the leadership are being attacked, while in reality there sin was being confronted and exposed. He is covering his sin with a spirit and manipulation that I can't even begin to understand. Jeremiah 23:1-4. Also, do denominations cause us to follow a man instead of Christ. "I AM OF Apollos, I am of Paul", I am of Baptist, I am of reformed, I am of Nondenominational,....instead of: "I am of Christ"?
Yes, same in the church I've left. The pastor's wife lied when asked why a member left. She said the church is being attacked by the enemy because of the evangelism - lie. They don't do any evangelism either!
There are initial signs of an unhealthy culture in a church that are red flags. The 'elders' are all paid staff who have been volunteer pastors (young people in a year out after uni) in training under the pastor. This sets up an unequal and unhealthy power relationship with the pastor and those that eventually become assistant pastors, one in which the pastor has little to no accountability and put him/herself in a situation of the 'expert'. It also removes eldership and replaces it with 'staff' who are there because of gifts and skills (and simply because they are available to take lower paid job) not because of character and elder maturity levels. The pastor feels the need to assert their 'leadership' (not shepherding by serving their people) by making extraneous areas 'non-negotiable' and moves from giving opinion to bring controlling over how he/she wants people to act/think.
Maybe, the bigger problem is the system. The system is where main pastor is treated like a Pope and the pulpit is treated as ex cathedra. And it should be multiple pastors who have equal authority.
Praise disables, encouragement enables any child or adult person learning new skills. The comments about training pastors well were thought provoking. Feeding growing people on praise leaves them vulnerable when criticised - it is because it is about performances and styles and achievements and ultimately therefore about reliance on self and about pride and carries with it the risk of arrogance. Feeding people on encouragement brings resilience as it is about who they are and their character and personhood skills. Praise builds superficiality in us flawed humans, encouragement builds depth. Encouragement builds for adversity and lean times. Praise depends normally on ephemeral and passing highs. Praise belongs only properly to God, encouragement is what fallen humans need and what works to build character with humility. Jesus encourages his disciples in who they are and how to live in the light of loving relationship.
This is what happens in Churches where there is no Bishop or higher authority to appeal to. I was part of a joint Baptist / AOG Church where horrific abuse - spiritual and often physical was happening. Any and all attempts to appeal to the Baptist Union were quickly shut down and covered up.
I'm just wondering why we give pastors so many things to be in charge of? We assume they must do so much. Feeding God's sheep because you are called to and as a response that you love God and love who He loves and died for, doesn't sound like Jesus was telling Peter that he had to run a corporation. Why do churches run like a corporation, or, as if the pastor is a king of some sort and he's expected to rule a kingdom we call "church"? What does a shepherd do and not do? Why do we often have a single pastor who seems like the head of God's Body, instead of Jesus Himself? Why don't we have multiple pastors to help feed the sheep? What does church actually mean? Is it fellowship? Gathering? Where 2 or 3 gather in Jesus name and He is in our midst? Or is it a very busy well oiled machine or business? What is "church" and what is it not? Are we just copying a horrible model generation after generation? Is our flawed expectation for a pastor creating an abusive leader who we expect so much from that God Himself never intended? I believe God's yoke is easy, His burden is light. I don't see that in what we call "church" today. I am a widow who has recently had to flee my "church family" from abuse that has been protected by an un-equipped leadership. My 5 children were 1-12 years old when we started ministering among this church, my chidren are now 12-23 years old; their daddy died 9 years ago. I'm pretty sure he would have been livid by what we have been going through in the name of "love" and submitting to "spiritual authority." If you can please respond. I am totally disillusioned by what church is, and it seems so set up for abuse and an abusive culture that protects the abuser and accuses the abused. We don't minister to the broken, we accuse and reject the broken. Even though I didn't realize that I was abused for years, I treated abused people just like my leaders did!!! God forgive me, God forgive us! How can I trust such a faulty system again?
@anneboyle2240 I am so sorry for what you have gone through. I am relieved at the same time that you recognize that. LORD, thank You for loving us perfectly. Unite Your body. We are loved by You. We have been adorned with so many gifts from You. Thank you for loving us so much that Your back was shredded so we could even be healed from this system we call "church". Thank You for healing us. Thank you for healing Anne. You lead perfectly and Your ways are not our ways, Your ways are so much better. Help us to follow You and trust You and rest in You and who You are. Help the brethren to truly love the brethren. The world will know we are Yours by our love for the brethren, for Your children. Our neighbors need You, not a circus, not theatrics, not bondage, they need You. You are Good News!! Thank You for all you have done and all You are doing to set us free! As Your Children. As Your cherished Bride. As Your friend. In Jesus name! Oh, and thank You for giving us Your wisdom! Oh, how we need Your wisdom and discernment!
We need sessions and presbyteries to read material related to this... I'll bet this is resonating with people in the pews and its victims BUT its the pastors and elders and presbyteries as a whole that need to read these things to recognize and deal with the issue.... but I think pastors and elders have hard time reading about sins particular to their profession and prefer a "good ole boy" system to feel like they are protecting themselves and their profession (because that's what the ministry becomes and ceases to be a calling once you think that way) rather than call out wolves or at least wolf-like behavior
Why did the Bible revealed David's affairs and how he killed his lover's husband? Why did the Bible told us about the angels had sex with daughters of human beings? It is because God wants us not to mystify and beautify people who lead us by claiming they are spiritual! They may be on one side, spiritual, but on the other side they are still carrying their naked fresh. They could sin! That is why Jesus tells us, "Stay awake and pray that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”"
There was a black guy who said he knew I might be native American by the way inactive Rd. What did that mean? Was that common abuse if native Americans and native children? He mentioned Elijah Mohammed abd threatened me here in montgomery al.
Reformed churches tend to be the worst offenders. Like Voddie Bauchman calling children "vipers in diapers," (as if the parents are so perfect and can do no wrong); and somehow "it's a sin" for women to have careers or run for public office. And "spanking" being the "only Biblical form" of discipline!? WHAT!?
I think having a senior pastor is problematic for these narcissistic pastors. I think we should change to have co-pastors or a small group of pastors leading a church so that no one can get a big ego. I guess it’s important to see How is the church structured as most of us as congregants don’t even think about this, but I will now since my church is going through spiritual leadership abuse where the board and the pastor Are ruling the church and covering up the senior pastor’s sins, financial mismanagement, sexual inappropriate comments and text which to me he’s probably had some kind of an affair at the least it was emotional. And the staff pastors have no power and neither do we the church, wrong wrong wrong! if the senior pastor doesn’t change and repent fully, I’ll most likely be looking for a new church and asking questions in the beginning about the power dynamics of the leaders
No one was allowed to tell their stories. The use of fellowship as a leverage to silence, and community wide ostracization given the inroading of cultic subtly controlling churches into every societal aspect, even workplaces and families, was and is extremely powerful. I do not believe pastors are trained but rather led by the Spirit. Leadership is not relevant next to example setters of Christ's nature. Control and domination is never authority.
Gentlemen, you miss the point entirely. The seminary training and the need to achieve a "Master of Ministry" before a church will consider a person to be qualified to be a pastor has eliminated the in filling of the Holy Spirit. I have been a Christian/disciple for 50 years and I have worked in para-church ministry and I am convinced that the entire focus and goal of the seminary training is faulty. Paul when he spoke of appointing elders he was subsuming the gift of pastoring (which cannot be done to 200 plus congregants) and teaching. However none of them - elders - had formal training in the theology as today. Yet they prospered and were disciplined by Jesus (the churches of Revelation). I am stunned at the lack of Holy Spirit intuition in every "pastor" I meet. I am an Attorney. who avoided the "call" to the ministry. Thank you Jesus.
I had mine at ywam. It is a cruel organization, and I wouldn't recommend sending your kids there. Loren Cunningham is the reason why and allows the abuse to happen. He is an irresponsible leader.
No qualification that the scriptures are sufficient in electing qualified leaders. No mention of the importance of biblical ecclesiology, membership, etc in protecting the flock and the eldership. No scripture mentioned at all. Very strange way to talk about a church issue.
we are supposed to SERVE first of all. To making young person a "leader" will boast their ego and they will become just like the devil...from my own experience with that kind of person, the devil himself and I talk about so called "pastor/apostle"@@revdnp
n light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher. The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church.
I get confronted every week when I show up for church even in the rain...by the pastor who thinks his name is bigger than God when it's blasphemy for a y preacher or pastor to consider themselves higher than God or to think their name is higher than God's and they target impressionable young girls you can see it in their body language. How they carry themselves.
I feel like in the modern culture: "It's your duty to look after all of these ignorant savages, and you have eternal life so you don't have to worry about it" is missing these days. Everyone is scared of the savages, and trying to argue with them even though we exist in totally different paradigms. The real job is to keep the psychopaths out of church, not to talk about the ignorant savage stuff the unbelievers have always been and always will be up to.
I don't think they said that here. They said they didn't look into that specifically and yes it's certainly a problem in reformed theology. I've seen it in Pentecostal, charismatic, Catholic churches.... Abuse is as was said a human problem that will show it's head anywhere, right from the first humans.
Its because they have started to run churches like franchises its horrific my God how could people do this and even think it is God ... its completely crazy i am so glad God took me out of that horrific abomination it has nothing to do with Jesus its total deception read tthe Word of God ... its so sad
I've never practiced islamic faith but I thought real Muslim s had to face mecca and pray certain times if day. People are quoting Elijah Mohammed and I don't see them facing mecca. I mean I would quote any Muslim cleric language. I can't write Arabic read Arabic speak Arabic neither can my children. I have eaten pork chops bacon all my life. Did they know that you as forbidden for real Muslims? Probably not. And I have been threatened over it repeatedly since 1980.
When the Pastor is the star and seems to be a very good man, but the synchophants are covert narcissists especially the female advisor, run! This is not godly. Trouble is my husband drank the kool-aid. My life is hell now wirh constant mysogynist microagressions on a daily basis. What happened? I don't know except to quote the line Satan asked Eve, "Did God really say that?" Because God spoke it to Adam before Eve was created. Trust is important. My trust is broken, but thankfully, years of intensive Bible Study compelled me to look it up in Scripture. And lets face it women get knocked about everywhich way even in scripture. The first evangelist , the Samaritan woman was dissed by the apostles. Microagressions. 😮 Meh. YHWH is my father. Bottom line. Run to him. Men are nevver going to put the flock above their own primal needs unless they are nurturers. That seeks that children are better than their nuturers. This is why elders/ big tithers do nothing because their heads are turned. They don't see the eternal picture.
The perfect church on Earth does not exist and you cannot make the perfect church. If you can prove me wrong and find this church DO NOT JOIN IT!!! If you do you will spoil it.
yep, celebrity pastors- some willingly and eagerly climb their pedestal and others are placed their. It is the responsibility of the leader to resist, reject and educate their congregation of how this is NOT a biblical model for shepherds.
No, a lot of times the abuse is covert. Meaning they manipulate people to think they're not abusive. That's a form of abuse where they're looking to control their image and how others see them.
Yep! Those are the narcissists
Indeed, and that's the most prevalent type of abuse--covert abuse-- particularly in church leadership. They are covertly dirty, abusive and corrupt when nobody's looking. Nonetheless, the congregation will support these abusers at all times--and these type of church leaders know it and count on it.
Tell us about it...
I’m experiencing this now. I remember this pastor’s wife from high school. She always liked praise and outdressed everyone else in school. After 35+ years we met and are both “saved”. I didn’t have my guard up. But wow have I experienced that covert cloak of fake holiness and helplessness (Love bombing). Then I introduced her to an associate from the past. Another “Christian”. They insisted on doing outings periodically then they would correct my thoughts and statements. I’m Baptist and they wanted me to join their church when I believe that Holy Spirit leads us to a church. Then they started taking turns with criticism and if I disagreed then something’s inherently wrong with me for having separate beliefs. I’m not into deliverance ministries with a controlling leader who believes members are their personal servants. When I disagreed with the personal insults, I’m just sensitive. I walked away from them and I am convinced they deserve each other. Good riddance to cruel “saved” mean girl manipulation. 😢
I agree with you 100% Confronting these types will get you out of those churches quickly . Usually there is hidden sin at the center of an egotistical cleric . The prophetic movement is one of the most dangerous cultlike ministry I know of because people follow them blindly and not Holy Spirit.
One issue here is Prophet's apparently are hearing from Holy Spirit, so people are willing to follow that.
@@KJ-lb4tj Real prophets don't toot their own HORN . Some so called prophets are looking for a following and tickling peoples ears toget followers . I never met a real Prophet or Apostle that didn't bring correction ,conviction and confirmation . Holy Spirit always confirms their ministry when you hear the true word they preach .
I'm cautious re some prophetic movements too, and can see how some can become cultic, especially if some church members are considered not to be fully 'onboard' with an idea. Or if you can't keep up with their 'pace', spiritually, as it were, in terms of keeping up with all that they are saying and doing. I find it concerning that some such groups can tend to be rather dogmatic, and tender love and care seems to be disregarded. I see this as a warning sign. Glad I'm out of one such church.
They don’t have to put me out after confronting them, I will leave on my own before I accept continued abuse.
Thank you for publishing this topic. My abusive narcissist husband, whom I am divorcing, is now becomming a pastor, ie an “untouchable”. I’m disgusted because I know how he is and who he is. He just adopted the ultimate shield. Who would ever guess a man of the cloth is a monster? And if he did have a dark moment, of course, his anger and abuse would be reasonable, wouldnt it? Disgusting.
Anybody who wants to be in leadership at a Church where there in no accountability to a Bishop should be treated with extreme suspicion.
Thank you for this, I have been a victim of spiritual abuse. It’s healing to me to hear this spoken of openly.
I saw a lot of spiritual abuse at the last church I served as associate. Bully Pulpit could have been written about that church and gave me the framework to understand what I was experiencing. Thank you for having this conversation.
n light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher.
The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church.
Flee from anyone calling themselves Pastor.
I really enjoyed this video. I was abused - seriously abused - by a church in Glendale, Arizona in 2015-2016 and left with very damaging scars that still linger today. Ironically, it was an Arizona Gospel Coalition member church and when I reached out to the pastors of the other 15 Arizona Gospel Coalition member churches I was met with only silence. But I have been strengthen lately from books like Michael Kruger’s Bully Pulpit, as well as Chuck DeGroat (When Narcissism Comes to Church), Wade Mullen (Something's Not Right), Lisa Oakley (Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse), and others. The abused are finally beginning to stand up and social media is giving us a voice to uncover what is done in secret by men who claim to represent God but seem to do it for their own selfish needs of controlling and manipulating others.
Yes, yes exactly!!!! I have been so spiritually abused. I am in so much pain. Thank you for sharing.
Hi John, greetings from the UK. Mentioning that those of us who have experienced this are now speaking up & using social media is v helpful, encouraging. They've kept this a quiet, dirty little secret for too long, & now it's all coming out into the open, & I think it's necessary, because too many just won't change. Exposure is what's needed now, to try to warn & protect others too. Seems that these genuinely abusive leaders, covert or overt, have little fear of God & don't care that we too are God's creation, & that by deliberately hurting us hurts Him too, and for that He will judge them if they don't stop. I am no longer so naive as to trust many church leaders or even most christians. Few will stand by you if you speak up about pastoral abuse. Most will abandon you. It's about survival.
@@deniserichardson5018 Thanks for the feedback. The church I was abused at was Crosstrain Church of Glendale, Arizona (and yes, from the name you can tell it may be abusive, as they train you to be acceptable to God) and the pastor was Doug Troyer. It's sickening how they can just do whatever they want to you with the congregation standing by their side thinking they are somehow pleasing to God. What happened to me really opened my eyes and they will never be shut again.
Amen to that!!!! 👍👍👍👍
Abuse by pastors is covert and overt. Confronting them seems rarely successful. Other leaders don't usually want to deal with this. They're not equipped, & prefer to 'keep the peace'. So the 'complainant' is 'sacrificed'. Can result in having to leave the church. Changes you. Harder to trust other pastors, commit to a different body of believers. Can be devastating. Some may feel suicidal. Many people don't want to listen. You're swiftly urged to "forgive" & it's all swept under the carpet. Few people care enough, though I'm grateful for those who do. But those of us who have experienced this are also God's creation & by abusing us they're also doing it to God. And they'll have to give an account to Him one day...
This is an astute statement. Thank you. My comfort is that, as you say, the abusers will stand before God one day and be forced to give an account of their actions. Unlike humans, Jesus will not give them a pass, nor can He be fooled. Vengeance is His.
The problem is: people don't want to believe the leader they love and trust is profoundly abusive. They are blind to the subtle signs. Often, congregants aren't trained to pick up on subtle theological errors.
n light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher.
The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church.
Flee from anyone calling themselves Pastor.
@@1Whipperin
Also warned in Scripture to not view anyone else than God, as being our spiritual father.
Religious abuse seems to be rooted in grabbing (perceived) spiritual authority over others; this instead of pursuing setting an example through servant leadership: "Follow Me," Jesus said.
Probably always an abusive spiritual leader will firstly be displaying similar abusive behaviour in their own home towards their spouse and children.
Regardless of where the abuse occurs--the home, church, workplace, etc.--we ought to consider reported numbers to be shy of reality. Traumatized people often suffer in silence. Abuse is grossly underreported.
I’m a member of a 2,000 member evangelical bible church. The spiritual abuse in this church, led by the pastor and supported by the elders, is so subtle, yet outrageously blatant. I was faced with abuse when the pastor censored a question I asked in response to his post on the church’s social media page. When I challenged his censorship, he doubled down by throwing his Christianity in my face and shaming me for questioning his authority. I was later confronted separately by the associate pastor and an elder, both of whom strongly insinuated that I had done something wrong.
That's because you used the brain God gave you. Well done, welcome to light side. Order conquers chaos. Trouble is the chaos exists, you sought order. Light of the world is actually translated order of the world. Order eats Chaos.
Jesus is Lord. The pastor is not the lord.
A wonderful pastor from years ago wrote a brilliant book titled "Healing Spiritual Abuse "How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences." By Ken Blue. Published in 1993 by InterVarsity Press. More needed today than ever befire. I am rereading it, and am blown away by how relevant it is for this precise moment in time in which we find ourselves. So many of these questions answered truthfully and throughly. I have paid a dear price for speaking out against abuse and bad theology. I was the truth teller in my family also, and was rejected for it, so expect people to react negatively.
Yes, rejection is the preferred option of most, it seems, of those who speak out. I know I am viewed by several people to be too negative etc, and am not taken seriously. I have been v isolated for a long time now, & visit several other churches, some miles away, who don't know I'm doing this, & who don't know each other. This is the price some people pay for refusing to allow a pastor/boss/partner etc to bully & severely damage you. But I'm very grateful to the few who have believed me & taken it to heart, & for their prayers. But again, some of these people are even in different countries, safe people, who do care. We just can't expect any church not to have tares, even wolves, even among it's leaders. It's all about survival.
Much needed interview. The church must talk about this issue and by Gods help overcome! Thank you very much🙏🏻
Maaaannnnn this was so flippin’ good!!! Thank you, THANK YOU!!!
Thank you so much. I feel protected by your words and comfort, as I’m going through this.🙏🏼👆🏼 thank you
I appreciate your message, which is much needed in the church today. I’m a survivor of horrendous spiritual abuse, so I’ve seen firsthand the cruelty of church leadership. Another reason for the reluctance of some church leaders to speak against spiritual abuse may be because they have been or are guilty of the same or similar behavior. I agree with you. I don't believe there will be a definite, concrete change in spiritual abuse in the church. For one thing, most people love power, it’s intoxicating for some, and the other reason is that pastors/church leaders aren't going to monitor one another effectively, their buddies.
That's because bad leaders will only surround themselves with people who will follow his lead and won't rock the boat. A godly leader will always welcome correction and won't be offended when questioned. If this isn't the case, he is not of God. Guaranteed.
You have made some very valid points Abusers tend to attract to one anorher especially when they are in control of the church members
The first time I confronted them, they all started rumors and lies about me. Even my own brother. So I learned the hard way that if you do confront them, they will do whatever it takes to cover themselves up and get everyone to turn against you and they don’t care who they have to use to turn against you. Trust me they will even try to convince your parents that it ain’t true. Then after that they will use pictures to show off to people to prove that they’re nice and not mean and abusive and the church is a good church and they’re good people. Then they will use old pictures of you to prove to people that you’re lying cuz we have old pictures of you doing this looking all happy with the rest of us. Then if you continue to talk and confront them, they will pump up the drama and get groups of people to harm you in every way possible. So when I go to a church and some false pastor or false person in leadership tries to play me, I make sure I let them know in that exact moment right away that you ain’t going to play me and you’re playing yourself. I forgive them and if dumb childish abusive stuff continues to go on, then that’s when I leave the church. Unfortunately I have come to the realization that it’s mostly charismatic churches and small churches and churches who do things in groups that do this kind of stuff. For example churches who always want the church to do things as groups. Like bible study, women’s classes cuz you gotta do things in groups and where there’s groups, there’s problems cuz trust me just like in grade school they group together by bullying you and abusing you; well same with churches. They group up together to attack you. So stand your ground and be nice and say “hi how are you! It’s good to see you” and move on and don’t be gossiping with the rest of the people from these groups cuz they’ll bite your ass and stab you in the back. Even if you’re not gossiping with those people, don’t let them know anything personal about you cuz they will use it against you and will humiliate you in front of the church. Don’t let them know where you work or what field/position you have in your workplace cuz they will get excited and expect huge $$$$$$$$$ from you but first they will kiss your ass to get you to believe that they aren’t using you and once you fall for that, is when the using you for your$$$$$$ begins. God ain’t going to punish you just cuz you don’t tithe or give huge offerings. If you got social security$$$$$ or disability checks$$$$ don’t let them take it from you. Put yourself first. A lot of them churches do take advantage of those people in order to get $$$$$$ if they ask where you work or what you do the answer is always “I’m just busy enjoying life”
Found this timely and well worth hearing - I’m certainly going to get the book. Another author I’d suggest is Diane Langberg who also writes on the subject.
Great show, you both addressed some key issues that are necessary to help change the abusive ways in the church.
For years I felt something was wrong, I would question and finally I was kicked out of church.
what do u guys think about looking for restedness in dudes trying out for ministry? I know in my case it took a very perceptive & loving eldership to see that I was trying to control myself & others using apologetics. I had a chaotic upbringing so I craved stability, but when I found that stability in Christian truth I leaned hard on my own ability to comprehend & articulate that truth rather than on the person of God. Trust in the Lord with all your heart & don't lean on your own understanding still hits me hard. That reliance or u could say rest is something God had to parent me into over years, via patient elders & members in his body.
On point from start to finish. Thank you. 🙏
Thanks for talking about this. I spoke the truth and paying the price. I knew this was going to happen but to hear it said here affirms im not crazy.
I so needed this! God bless Truth ❤ Speak up & let God work His miracles.
Clergy, CEOs, Military, Lawyers, Law Enforcement have high incidents of psychopathy and narcissism.
In light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher.
The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church.
Flee from anyone calling themselves Pastor.
Mike Bickle is the latest in this unending saga.
AMEN
I have to go to go to a secular counseling to deal with the 😔 and spine abuse. I will Never volunteer Again in a chruch
😢
Sorry about that! May God heal and restore your trust in a good loving church!
I feel for u. 5 years on I'm still effected and I have forgiven but the trust in any church leader isn't there..always a nagging suspicious feeling 🤔.
I have to go to a secular counseling to share in a safe place because of the abuse 😢
17:08 Jeremiah 5v31, 2 Corinthians 11v19,20.
I heard from a Christian counsellor on yt video who deals with trauma and bullying, that about 15% of the population has a tendency/trait for bullying. I dont think that statistic is too far off in the church or any religious circles.
I want to find both the strength and humility to deal with bullying when I see it, and a tenderness for those who do it (lest i also be ensnared)
I grew up in a very abusive church from birth to 19 years old. It has scarred me for many years. I know many people from all over the U.S. who have experienced abuse in their churches as well. Unfortunately, it's not a new phenomenon.
When I spoke with a former missionary he told me the one thing they looked for was one who was willing to give up their power and control. That is making disciples who make disciples. 2 Timothy 2:2
Are you saying here that's why he's no longer a missionary?
@@oliviacadena2036 He was a missionary in a another country. One of the problems that a number of mission bards had was sending people who should not have gone. If someone will not give up their power and control they are self centered and not one who is a leader who trains leaders.
@@geraldpolmateer3255 Ohh I see. Thanks for your answer back to me 😊. Yes, that is unfortunate. I can't say that I understand why people like that would be sent elsewhere, actually.
So true .... so much spiritual abuse even in the most innocent seeming christian ...
Recovering Southern Baptist here....
I have seen elders train other elders on how to abuse.
Brilliant Godly strategies to address this growing problem at seminary level.Thank you gentlemen for exploring this dreadful phenomenon occuring in these days.Your insight is incredible and informative..I am so grateful for you acknowledging how people behave in an abusive manner .Such clarity and truthl
How does a church become accountable for this abuse though?
What process is in place for those being abused in churches to be heard and validated? Churches do not have regularity bodies to govern their conduct.
I will buy this book
Pastor's today do not want to be challenge by Scripture or inventoried. Bill Gothard taught an umbrella of protection by a Pastors Authority. John Bevere also teaches submitting to the Pastors even if they are doing a know sin. I will paint a broad brush statement, most Pentecostal Pastors are narcissist. The sheep are to listen to the shepherding without accountability. There is a correlation between spiritual abuse and sexual promiscuity with these pastors. Many of today's sheep are Biblically illiterate. And many Pastor's perfer that. I attended Berean Bible Church our pastor serves at a servant, and teaches a sound Doctrine.
"we" stood up and begged our congregation not to appoint the man who became our pastor. The backlash was very harsh but we decided to stay with our church because it is our "family" 2 years down the line people are seeing the truth but rather than confront it they are slipping away quietly . The pastor has his team of supporters who protect him and our church is dying , what can we do?
protect yourself first.
many people over many years have used biblical discernment on public platforms in an attempt to bring awareness of this to Christs body. it’s only gotten worse.
i don’t like to think of myself as fatalistic but we can be encouraged by Gods word that none of it surprises God.
Thanks for having this important discussion 👏👏👏👏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Geee, if only these two had been listening to the Pirate Christian Radio podcast, "Fighting for the Faith," by Chris Rosebrough. Rosebrough has addressed and resolved every issue these two good men raised in the first 11 minutes of this video... SINCE 2008!!!! He called out James McDonald and Bill Hybels LONG before they fell, along with the ideology that enables the abuse in churches.
There is a lot of pulpit abuse going on, how can it be regulated? The Catholic church have a structure and if a priest abuses the pulpit it will be addressed. The priest has to be accountable to the bishop. So is there any kind of structure in Christian evangelical, Baptist churches? To prevent further abuse and church hurt? Can anything be done?
Not really, I've gone back into Catholicism myself after years of abuse from a Baptist pastor who has destroyed peoples lives. There is no oversite and when we tried to deal with it through the Baptist Union we were shut down. It's like dealing with The Mafia.
thank you for this interview.
I am in the middle of leaving a spiritual abusive church. Because my family knows the pastor personally and I have been a part of this church for so long, I went to another pastor and his wife to ask how to leave. I was coached on what to do.
1. Over the phone rather than in person. I am a single female, and he is a larger man. You are choosing to leave, that is bravery enough.
2. Try to have a witness listen in or record your call just in case. If they lie or threaten you, you have proof.
3. Say less as possible. You want to leave and find another church. Don't argue, and don't give them a list why. If they want to know why, say at this time I don't want to talk about it. You don't owe them an explanation.
3. If they start yelling, telling you how unfair this all is, use your personal life against you, or try to encourage you stay, then say no, say goodbye, I will pray for blank church.
4. Hang up and do not answer their calls again. Then prepare for backlash. People will be angry, sad, or just straight out shun you. Still say as little as possible. Don't defend yourself or get revenge. God will take care it in His own time.
5. Do not be surprised if your abusive pastor or church members tries to show up and confront you head on to talk. Say no, and it does not matter how concerned they are. Avoid the situation the best you can. You are not emotionally ready for it and if you panic or get angry they will use it against you.
6. Find a good loving church to replace the pain this will cause in you. And remember, you are not leaving God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, you are leaving a bad church. That is not a sin. You have free will and can make decisions in your own life.
7. Don't beat yourself for wasted time. You are free now, and that's what matters. God be with you.
Edit: 8. Get professional help and find people to support your decisions. If you are like me, then the situation will or can develop mental health problems like anxiety or depression. Talk to someone you trust and cheers you on. Pray often.
The "truth teller" is the role of the prophet, who is either not recognized as a legitimate voice or is co-opted for different reasons to only tell folks "good news."
n light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher.
The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church.
Flee from anyone calling themselves Pastor.
A topic that needs to addressed more seldomly.
It’s the spirit of Jezebel. Control, manipulation, w/ fear as your condemning overseer.
There’s a recipe for church abuse that another channel proposed (and I can’t remember the channel) but it’s very simple: dishonesty + unchecked power.
Basically if there’s a culture of secrecy and the leaders can’t be challenged or held accountable, they’ll slide into questionable behaviour.
was spiritually abused for 15 years. It’s so freeing getting out from it, however, not many are aware it even exists. See Cara’s inner healing horror for my testimony.
In 1996 there was a youth pastor who seduced me and hooked me into an affair then when the lead pastor found out they spirited him away and that was that. There was also a suicide loosly related to what had happened with us. and I was met with indifference when I needed to talk. I know the lack of closure in that has affected me deeply since.
There should be church discipline for that youth pastor. I hope he isn't working anywhere hurting more people
@Janaina Ribeiro that is a careless reply online. There is a human being at the other end. Respect that.
You should seek out help. I have known a few similar stories. It will always haunt you otherwise
There is another book written on the topic that was so helpful to me in recovering from pastoral abuse. It is titled Healing Spiritual Abuse How to Break Free from Bad Church Experiences, by Dr. Ken Blue, published in 1993 by InterVarsity Press. I had the honor of attending this man's fellowship, and I've him a great debt of gratitude. I had suffered from a very abusive church enviornment. Ken Blue helped me deconstruct from toxic theology and authoritarian control, and find a way to identify the healthy from the unhealthy church environment. If you see this Ken and Patty Blue, I am eternally grateful for rebuilding of my faith demonstrated by your wise and humble leadership. God bless.
They failed you
I think Reformed Theology has the danger of getting so stuck in theology, that the heart of the congregation is lost. That the concerns and needs of the congregation can be dismissed and treated quickly by throwing verses at the suffering.
This.
I would add that there is a specific group within reformed theology with this abusive tendency because of their theology.
I'ts is interesting that people look for pastors that have personality aspects similar to CEO's . Researcher Robert Hair has shown that they seem to have Narcissistic or Sociopathic traits!!!!
"Robert Haré"
But if you think of missionaries who planted churches, their characters were on the whole, humble and unhooked on power. Think Hudson Taylor, David Livingstone etc.
A person that has a lot of broken relationships in their past it because they have called out their sin. People don't like their faults pointed out.
I hope your talking about not the person but all of the relationships they once had but called them on their sin which broke the relationships. Because if the. Path is narrow and few find it, that means the whistle blower is the one who called out the sin. But the world will say if you don’t have lots of friend your the problem bc you don’t get along with everyone.
1980 s I’m a victim of spiritual - sexual abuse - major cover ups and shame on people who came forward
The "pastor" I was scattered from used the suffering card that he and the leadership are being attacked, while in reality there sin was being confronted and exposed. He is covering his sin with a spirit and manipulation that I can't even begin to understand. Jeremiah 23:1-4.
Also, do denominations cause us to follow a man instead of Christ. "I AM OF Apollos, I am of Paul", I am of Baptist, I am of reformed, I am of Nondenominational,....instead of:
"I am of Christ"?
Yes, same in the church I've left. The pastor's wife lied when asked why a member left. She said the church is being attacked by the enemy because of the evangelism - lie. They don't do any evangelism either!
Interesting question! True! pro active…. Exactly! Miscalculation! Agree!
There are initial signs of an unhealthy culture in a church that are red flags. The 'elders' are all paid staff who have been volunteer pastors (young people in a year out after uni) in training under the pastor. This sets up an unequal and unhealthy power relationship with the pastor and those that eventually become assistant pastors, one in which the pastor has little to no accountability and put him/herself in a situation of the 'expert'. It also removes eldership and replaces it with 'staff' who are there because of gifts and skills (and simply because they are available to take lower paid job) not because of character and elder maturity levels.
The pastor feels the need to assert their 'leadership' (not shepherding by serving their people) by making extraneous areas 'non-negotiable' and moves from giving opinion to bring controlling over how he/she wants people to act/think.
so true
Maybe, the bigger problem is the system. The system is where main pastor is treated like a Pope and the pulpit is treated as ex cathedra. And it should be multiple pastors who have equal authority.
Praise disables, encouragement enables any child or adult person learning new skills.
The comments about training pastors well were thought provoking.
Feeding growing people on praise leaves them vulnerable when criticised - it is because it is about performances and styles and achievements and ultimately therefore about reliance on self and about pride and carries with it the risk of arrogance.
Feeding people on encouragement brings resilience as it is about who they are and their character and personhood skills.
Praise builds superficiality in us flawed humans, encouragement builds depth. Encouragement builds for adversity and lean times. Praise depends normally on ephemeral and passing highs.
Praise belongs only properly to God, encouragement is what fallen humans need and what works to build character with humility. Jesus encourages his disciples in who they are and how to live in the light of loving relationship.
Spiritual abuse can be blatant or subtle…
This is what happens in Churches where there is no Bishop or higher authority to appeal to. I was part of a joint Baptist / AOG Church where horrific abuse - spiritual and often physical was happening. Any and all attempts to appeal to the Baptist Union were quickly shut down and covered up.
That’s why you just leave, you weren’t being held hostage you just kept going back for more
I'm just wondering why we give pastors so many things to be in charge of? We assume they must do so much. Feeding God's sheep because you are called to and as a response that you love God and love who He loves and died for, doesn't sound like Jesus was telling Peter that he had to run a corporation. Why do churches run like a corporation, or, as if the pastor is a king of some sort and he's expected to rule a kingdom we call "church"? What does a shepherd do and not do? Why do we often have a single pastor who seems like the head of God's Body, instead of Jesus Himself? Why don't we have multiple pastors to help feed the sheep? What does church actually mean? Is it fellowship? Gathering? Where 2 or 3 gather in Jesus name and He is in our midst? Or is it a very busy well oiled machine or business? What is "church" and what is it not? Are we just copying a horrible model generation after generation? Is our flawed expectation for a pastor creating an abusive leader who we expect so much from that God Himself never intended? I believe God's yoke is easy, His burden is light. I don't see that in what we call "church" today. I am a widow who has recently had to flee my "church family" from abuse that has been protected by an un-equipped leadership. My 5 children were 1-12 years old when we started ministering among this church, my chidren are now 12-23 years old; their daddy died 9 years ago. I'm pretty sure he would have been livid by what we have been going through in the name of "love" and submitting to "spiritual authority." If you can please respond. I am totally disillusioned by what church is, and it seems so set up for abuse and an abusive culture that protects the abuser and accuses the abused. We don't minister to the broken, we accuse and reject the broken. Even though I didn't realize that I was abused for years, I treated abused people just like my leaders did!!! God forgive me, God forgive us! How can I trust such a faulty system again?
I understand exactly 💯 how you feel, I'm the same and same thoughts about the whole thing 😢
@anneboyle2240 I am so sorry for what you have gone through. I am relieved at the same time that you recognize that. LORD, thank You for loving us perfectly. Unite Your body. We are loved by You. We have been adorned with so many gifts from You. Thank you for loving us so much that Your back was shredded so we could even be healed from this system we call "church". Thank You for healing us. Thank you for healing Anne. You lead perfectly and Your ways are not our ways, Your ways are so much better. Help us to follow You and trust You and rest in You and who You are. Help the brethren to truly love the brethren. The world will know we are Yours by our love for the brethren, for Your children. Our neighbors need You, not a circus, not theatrics, not bondage, they need You. You are Good News!! Thank You for all you have done and all You are doing to set us free! As Your Children. As Your cherished Bride. As Your friend. In Jesus name! Oh, and thank You for giving us Your wisdom! Oh, how we need Your wisdom and discernment!
@@christine_fernandez amen and amen 🙏❤️🙏 thank you! X
We need sessions and presbyteries to read material related to this...
I'll bet this is resonating with people in the pews and its victims BUT its the pastors and elders and presbyteries as a whole that need to read these things to recognize and deal with the issue.... but I think pastors and elders have hard time reading about sins particular to their profession and prefer a "good ole boy" system to feel like they are protecting themselves and their profession (because that's what the ministry becomes and ceases to be a calling once you think that way) rather than call out wolves or at least wolf-like behavior
True!
Especially when I'm alone or they are.
Where in this video did you address how to confront it? This is not helping me.
Wrong video for that mate. Plenty others out there on that topic.
I’m a recovering Baptist and have a hard time talking to baptists
Can’t help but wonder if I am abusive
Hello, if it is okay with you… What is the name of the Theological university you taught…?
Why did everyone laugh about asking Jesus a question as if it would be an oddity for him to answer?
Why did the Bible revealed David's affairs and how he killed his lover's husband? Why did the Bible told us about the angels had sex with daughters of human beings? It is because God wants us not to mystify and beautify people who lead us by claiming they are spiritual! They may be on one side, spiritual, but on the other side they are still carrying their naked fresh. They could sin! That is why Jesus tells us, "Stay awake and pray that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”"
There was a black guy who said he knew I might be native American by the way inactive Rd. What did that mean? Was that common abuse if native Americans and native children? He mentioned Elijah Mohammed abd threatened me here in montgomery al.
I think over controlling like a micro manager type.
Reformed churches tend to be the worst offenders. Like Voddie Bauchman calling children "vipers in diapers," (as if the parents are so perfect and can do no wrong); and somehow "it's a sin" for women to have careers or run for public office. And "spanking" being the "only Biblical form" of discipline!?
WHAT!?
I think having a senior pastor is problematic for these narcissistic pastors. I think we should change to have co-pastors or a small group of pastors leading a church so that no one can get a big ego. I guess it’s important to see How is the church structured as most of us as congregants don’t even think about this, but I will now since my church is going through spiritual leadership abuse where the board and the pastor Are ruling the church and covering up the senior pastor’s sins, financial mismanagement, sexual inappropriate comments and text which to me he’s probably had some kind of an affair at the least it was emotional. And the staff pastors have no power and neither do we the church, wrong wrong wrong! if the senior pastor doesn’t change and repent fully, I’ll most likely be looking for a new church and asking questions in the beginning about the power dynamics of the leaders
i made a mistake of getting an activation from someone and it screwed me up ; spacetime creator
If you are serious about modifying curriculum to promote humility, then add courses on Spiritual Formation.
No one was allowed to tell their stories. The use of fellowship as a leverage to silence, and community wide ostracization given the inroading of cultic subtly controlling churches into every societal aspect, even workplaces and families, was and is extremely powerful. I do not believe pastors are trained but rather led by the Spirit. Leadership is not relevant next to example setters of Christ's nature. Control and domination is never authority.
Gentlemen, you miss the point entirely. The seminary training and the need to achieve a "Master of Ministry" before a church will consider a person to be qualified to be a pastor has eliminated the in filling of the Holy Spirit. I have been a Christian/disciple for 50 years and I have worked in para-church ministry and I am convinced that the entire focus and goal of the seminary training is faulty. Paul when he spoke of appointing elders he was subsuming the gift of pastoring (which cannot be done to 200 plus congregants) and teaching. However none of them - elders - had formal training in the theology as today. Yet they prospered and were disciplined by Jesus (the churches of Revelation). I am stunned at the lack of Holy Spirit intuition in every "pastor" I meet. I am an Attorney. who avoided the "call" to the ministry. Thank you Jesus.
Often the abusers use the name of the Holy Spirit to subdue the victim....
omg some
of the Preachers are Bullies.
I have experienced this.Horrendous
To the 1st question: Generational trauma???
I had mine at ywam. It is a cruel organization, and I wouldn't recommend sending your kids there. Loren Cunningham is the reason why and allows the abuse to happen. He is an irresponsible leader.
But if it was present on 1950, we can ask the oldies. They don't say that. So, I guess it wasn't as prevalent.
No qualification that the scriptures are sufficient in electing qualified leaders. No mention of the importance of biblical ecclesiology, membership, etc in protecting the flock and the eldership. No scripture mentioned at all. Very strange way to talk about a church issue.
Covert narcissists work to the same playbook. Every single one work to a script.
Satans little season of loosing.
Here is an analogy.....its like an atomic bomb exploding. The fallout lasts a long time...
I listened for 20 minutes and no definition of what they mean by spiritual abuse….should probably start with that
young people should NOT lead anything!!!!! period
How would they grow as leaders if they never lead anything?
we are supposed to SERVE first of all. To making young person a "leader" will boast their ego and they will become just like the devil...from my own experience with that kind of person, the devil himself and I talk about so called "pastor/apostle"@@revdnp
@@revdnpby serving along side leaders first
n light of Matthew 23:8-12, where Jesus explicitly commands against using titles like "Rabbi" or any designation that elevates one believer over another, the title "Pastor" similarly violates this instruction by creating a hierarchy within the Church. Jesus teaches that all believers are equal, with God as their Father and Christ as their only Teacher.
The term "Bastard," though harsh, may more accurately reflect the disobedience inherent in going against Jesus’ command against titles. It underscores the reality of acting outside of God’s will, rejecting His instruction for humility and equality. Rather than promoting a sense of authority, "Bastard" serves as a reminder of the spiritual consequences of defying Jesus' clear directive to reject titles that foster pride and division within the Church.
I get confronted every week when I show up for church even in the rain...by the pastor who thinks his name is bigger than God when it's blasphemy for a y preacher or pastor to consider themselves higher than God or to think their name is higher than God's and they target impressionable young girls you can see it in their body language. How they carry themselves.
Next time you witness it “ tell him, I see what you did there” 😅
I feel like in the modern culture: "It's your duty to look after all of these ignorant savages, and you have eternal life so you don't have to worry about it" is missing these days.
Everyone is scared of the savages, and trying to argue with them even though we exist in totally different paradigms. The real job is to keep the psychopaths out of church, not to talk about the ignorant savage stuff the unbelievers have always been and always will be up to.
Respectfully I would disagree that this spiritual abuse has no connection with Reformed Theology.
I don't think they said that here. They said they didn't look into that specifically and yes it's certainly a problem in reformed theology.
I've seen it in Pentecostal, charismatic, Catholic churches.... Abuse is as was said a human problem that will show it's head anywhere, right from the first humans.
Its because they have started to run churches like franchises its horrific my God how could people do this and even think it is God ... its completely crazy i am so glad God took me out of that horrific abomination it has nothing to do with Jesus its total deception read tthe Word of God ... its so sad
Talk about too little too late.
Tomorrow we discuss the earth rotating the sun.
Churches very often in bloodbaths where I'm from.
As far as confronting these types of people, forget it, their personality type doesn't have any ears to hear.
I've never practiced islamic faith but I thought real Muslim s had to face mecca and pray certain times if day. People are quoting Elijah Mohammed and I don't see them facing mecca. I mean I would quote any Muslim cleric language. I can't write Arabic read Arabic speak Arabic neither can my children. I have eaten pork chops bacon all my life. Did they know that you as forbidden for real Muslims? Probably not. And I have been threatened over it repeatedly since 1980.
I’ve lost all faith in humanity
i can’t disagree but have to ask why would you put your faith in humanity to begin with?
When the Pastor is the star and seems to be a very good man, but the synchophants are covert narcissists especially the female advisor, run!
This is not godly. Trouble is my husband drank the kool-aid. My life is hell now wirh constant mysogynist microagressions on a daily basis.
What happened? I don't know except to quote the line Satan asked Eve, "Did God really say that?" Because God spoke it to Adam before Eve was created. Trust is important.
My trust is broken, but thankfully, years of intensive Bible Study compelled me to look it up in Scripture.
And lets face it women get knocked about everywhich way even in scripture. The first evangelist , the Samaritan woman was dissed by the apostles. Microagressions. 😮 Meh.
YHWH is my father. Bottom line. Run to him. Men are nevver going to put the flock above their own primal needs unless they are nurturers. That seeks that children are better than their nuturers. This is why elders/ big tithers do nothing because their heads are turned. They don't see the eternal picture.
Here, here is a scripture to take seriously: James 3:1 NOT MANY of you should become teachers...
I am not of islamic faith and never would be.
The perfect church on Earth does not exist and you cannot make the perfect church. If you can prove me wrong and find this church DO NOT JOIN IT!!! If you do you will spoil it.
Good point...I think these guys are making that point too.
yep, celebrity pastors- some willingly and eagerly climb their pedestal and others are placed their. It is the responsibility of the leader to resist, reject and educate their congregation of how this is NOT a biblical model for shepherds.
@@freesiasage Cornelius tried to exalt Peter in Acts Chapter 10 but Peter resisted.